377: How do you overcome the fear of being alone? (ft. Jason Lange & Luke Adler) | Dear Men

Jason Lange: There's literally nothing you can't bring. Darkness, lightness, challenge, emotional disconnection, dysregulate. You bring it to the group and it helps you metabolize it. And that is so freeing for men. It's like, oh, fuck, I don't have to be afraid anymore because I can bring it here and I don't have to be alone anymore because these are men that will receive any part of me.

Melanie Curtin: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode. This is a topic I've been wanting to address for quite a while, so I'm very excited to have two deep, resonant men with whom to have this discussion. Thank you for being here, Luke and Jason. So we are talking about overcoming the fear of being alone. And I think the fear of being alone is one of those big, fundamental, universal human fears, along with things like fear of abandonment, fear of engulfment, fear of being alone. We all probably have personal experience with this and then we have the experience that we've witnessed in clients. And part of the reason I've wanted to do this episode for so long is that the fear of being alone is a very powerful driver of behavior. There are all of these things that we do to try to not feel the fear of being alone or to try to stave it off or somehow get out of it. And we're going to be connecting it to different ways of. Yeah, overcoming it, working with it, moving with it, dancing with it, living through it instead of it, running your life or your relationships. So, yeah, I think to kick us off, I would love to hear from each of you just a little bit of your personal experience with this fear. Anything that comes up for you around that, and then we'll go around and then we'll do another one of what you've seen in clients with whom you've worked. Anyone can start.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'll happily hop on here. Most people kind of know my jam, I'd say by now in terms of, you know, really teenage years through my late 20s, as a late blooming single man who had some friends, but not necessarily friends I really know how to go super deep with. I was terrified of being alone and hated it. Just actually hated it. And, you know, one thing I've shared that some guys have resonated with was for me, it was Saturday mornings were always the worst. Saturday mornings I would come to dread because during the week I'd be at, like, work, there'd be people to kind of see there. Weekend nights, you know, people hang out, they socialize, even if they're in couples, you can, like, do stuff. And I would wake up on Saturday mornings, and I'd just be like, what the fuck do people do? What is everyone doing right? Like. And I would feel so alone at that time. And really, any of the times I felt that my major coping mechanism back then was, you know, mostly porn and masturbation, occasionally some alcohol when I would go out, in a sense. But it was a deep fear. I mean, it wasn't even, like, a theoretical fear. It was, this is my experience, and it sucks. And I do not like the feeling of being so alone. And, you know, it was one of those things that I even started to, like, kind of create my own versions of it in terms of, like, where I choose to live. And it became apparent that, like, I was not someone that did well isolating, because I was already a pretty isolating person. And so I had to make some choices about my living situations at some point. And there was just a deep fear of not being able to really ever connect to people the way I wanted. And then I would say, also for me, it's just striking me that that fear of being alone was, you know, the feeling of not feeling connected to my family of origin. So a similar experience I would have that I think a lot of men have is sometimes I'm around people, but I feel alone, and I'm afraid of that. And that was often one of my experiences that I didn't know at the time kind of how to go under the hood, under the surface, to create the type of connection that I really was longing for and my nervous system was, frankly desperate for until I found men's work.

Melanie Curtin: Thank you. That was poignant, especially that last part. I didn't know how to get under the hood. I didn't know how to get at it. But it was ruling a lot of your existence.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Thanks, Jason, for sharing so poignantly. It just. My whole life flashed before my eyes as you were. You were sharing. I was like, have I experienced being alone? And I was like, oh, my God. It's like a theme in my life. My parents moved from Banning, California. Oh, my God. 1988, to Upland, California, near Pasadena. Left my best friends. They moved from upland 1994, to Eugene, Oregon. Left my best friends again. And there was a couple other moves like that, but I didn't get used to leaving. It was traumatizing every time. And of course, the fear in every new town was I had no friends. You know, totally being alone, man. Yeah. Just talking about it, it's definitely a core wound Remember going to junior high and not having friends and sitting on the benches at lunch and just not talking to anyone. I went to UC Santa Barbara for my freshman year and anyway decided it wasn't a great idea for my parents to keep paying for a $30,000 vacation. So I took some time off, went to University of Oregon, and, you know, you miss freshman year in college. Guess what? No friends. And so I coped. I started to cope with it by. I had learned to meditate when I was younger. And so I just started meditating a lot. But I was lonely. God damn, I was lonely, you know, and so I started to throw myself into any group that would. Would take me. I think I joined Hillel and started hanging out with the Jews on campus. And that was great. Went to Birthright, did Birthright trip, went to Israel. But I was pretty lonely that whole time at the U of O. I had such close friends at Santa Barbara, but I realized I really coped. And even I'll find myself now as a man. Like, if there's things going on with Emily and I, my wife, I just start meditating more. Yeah, I've always used, as an adult, really used spirituality. I don't even know if you call that spirituality. I've been coping with loneliness by meditating, which is really just creating distance from my pain, which is a ton of grief and hurt. You know, there's hurt in every one of these instances. I brushed over a lot of them, but there's just a lot of raw hurt and grief. And yeah, when I think of the men's work that I started really with you, Jason, eight years ago, maybe not going on nine, it created a space of intimacy and closeness that now exists in my life, you know, and even though we all live all over the country, we were connected through the structures we have. And it's such a blessing. And I've done lots of other men's work that kind of dips into depth and sharing. But I think the difference with shadow work and the continuity of shadow work is that that group continues to live on. And so like the, the. One of our. One of our teachings in the heart of shadow is you're never alone once you start commit, because that depth is a sacred space, you know, and it's such a deep relief. And I think about, wow, up until that experience, loneliness was just something I got used to coping with uncomfort consciously.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean so many strategies in some sense. And it's just getting crazier and crazier really by the month at this point with the direction, culture and technology and the forces are, are all moving. But you know, relationship hopping is particularly a strong one for nice guys. Right. So speed running relationship in a sense, like falling into something really fast and often getting committed or moving in fast. But there's like a kind of zero to 60 we've certainly seen in clients Mel and I work with in Pillars. Luke and I have seen some patterns with people who kind of go from one thing to the next thing to the next thing, sometimes getting into their next relationship when they haven't even officially ended the last one. So there's that kind of relationship hopping. There's also, you know, staying in something that's clearly maladaptive. Right. So abusive, toxic, just non reciprocal, totally taking care of someone, you know, financially, emotionally, sometimes even physically in different ways. And just a total fear, like a kind of codependency of well, I can't leave them because then I would be alone and they would be alone, you know, and there's, there's fear around that. Definitely seen that one. And then, you know, there's also this guy we've definitely type of man that we've worked with, the heart of shadow that I would kind of call head household. He's the guy that probably makes, makes a good amount of money, he's got a pretty big family, but has so much on his back, like literally the weight of the world, his insides are collapsing and he has no one to talk to about it. There's like a certain kind of, you know, touch me and I'm going to dissolve into a million pieces because I'm barely Holding this all together, that's certainly a strategy. And then, you know, the various addictions. For me it was, it was porn. We definitely, you know, we've definitely worked with guys. It's weed, booze, online chat, girls like, you name it. There's lots of places this is showing up right now in terms of how men I think in particular cope with it. And there's really, what I would say is it's kind of whatever way it shows up, it's some kind of maladaptive behavior that causes us harm. It could be an addiction, could be a relationship, could be overworking. Um, but we keep doing that because we're the men, keep doing that because there's so much fear about what's touching underneath it, which is the, the loneliness. The like, fuck, I have no one I can talk to about this or I don't know how to talk to anyone about. This is really for some guys we, you know, we work with particularly in Heart of Shadow. Like they have the awareness, they just don't know what the fuck to do about it. Like, what, what am I gonna bring this up at the bar with my friends at sports? Like no. So they don't know what to do about it. And that's, you know, more and more something we're seeing with guys that, that come out and last one I'll just put out or actually there's one more I want to put out too, which is Luke. And I have kind of been poking the bear on this one and I, I do see it show up in guys that I do calls with and stuff. There's the type of guy that takes pride in needing. No one takes pride. I don't need anyone. Totally self sufficient and has created a very sophisticated kind of armored lonely life. And you know, I'll just be straight as. I've gotten to know men like that always underneath there is a fear of rejection actually. So I create my own loneliness so I never have to feel the pain of some kind of rejection. That we're relying on someone that you know maybe from childhood experience and whatnot. And then, you know, the layer over it all is the man box and just the tough that our culture is still being pumped full of, of. No, to be a man you have to be tough and you have to not share anything and don't show any weakness and don't be a libtard. Like it's, it's full force right now and it's all just utter horseshit.

Melanie Curtin: And it's dangerous because it keeps men isolated and it Keeps them not talking to each other or getting the support that they need, which then has a ripple effect. I just. Because this is a podcast and you can't see the screen. I want to point out that when, when you talked about that Jason, the type of guy that takes pride in not needing anyone, I grimaced as a woman that feels like a dangerous man. I feel scared of that man. I feel like there's so much going on that he's a little bit like a volcano. There's so much inside that isn't being expressed that he, that he's actually dangerous. So just wanted to reflect that, like, and I don't think I'm alone as a woman. Like, that feels scary to me. We all need each other and we need to be able to reach out and receive and vice versa. We, we are meant to get both give and receive. And thank you for speaking to the addictions, Jason, because that feels like a major way that, that human beings, not just men, but that human beings cope with, with that fear. Anything to add, Luke?

Jason Lange: I mean, that was definitely the list of, of what we do to, to outrun the feeling, the fear of being alone. I think there's an interesting observation to be made about how that evolves over time for man like Jason. Mel and I were all pretty much around the same age, mid-40s. And when I look at men my age, our age, compared to men in their mid-30s and 20s, what I see is the hardening of those identity structures, like their sense of self and personality has now really hardened in terms of just brain chemistry or neuroplasticity. So what we see now is long standing patterns of coping. And for some, for some people, if they have the physiology to just keep drinking because they have certain, certain stock from Europe or whatever it might be, or, you know, certain genetics that their body can process, addictive substances, they don't, they don't have the grace of a community like aa, which in my opinion is unbelievable technology for healing. So what I see as I look at and work with men and interact with, with, you know, men in arts of my life is something that does feel scary, Melanie. It's like a, it's like a real, a weddedness, a marrying of this is who I am. Yeah. And there's, there's a, there's not very much openness. I mean, sometimes it's like, is there any openness? Like, what would it take for this nut to crack? You know? And that makes me very sad. I feel a lot of grief around that just because I, you Know, the three of us, we've dedicated our lives to healing. And when I look at a being who goes. Who's just like, not, like, what is. What would it take for this person to really start to do the work? Sometimes I. And I have seen. I have seen instances where someone moves all the way through their lifetime, man, it's so sobering, you know, seeing someone move all the way through their lifetime and get to the end of their lifetime and. And they. They just. They. They live with that loneliness, that sense of. So I think that's the kind of sobriety of the journey of, like, the work doesn't occur unless you do it. And I always kind of. I'm always looking, well, what will it take for someone to really go for it? And how far will they go? And how much do they want to heal and wake up and connect? And then I look at, you know, what you guys are doing with Pillars and what we're doing with Heart of Shadow and what the three of us do together at times, and I go, man, I just. I want this for everyone. You know, I want. It doesn't have to be with us, just something, you know, something that gets you move, move, move along. You know, a lifetime just goes by so fast. It goes by so quick. You know, smoking weed in your 40s, you're smoking in your 50s, smoking in your 60s. And you and I, three of us, know people smoking in their 70s and 80s. Nothing fundamentally wrong with smoking weed or drinking, so to speak, other than it does numb your capacity to be aware and your capacity to feel. And I think the distinction is that we are body positive in the work we do. You know, we're. We're for the body, we're for feeling, we're for the intelligence of the body. We're not against the body. We believe that the body has wisdom. So ultimately, I think, like you said, Melanie, it does take a kind of tribal experience to heal. And if you want to heal and have freedom in your body, you need community. Right? And so I think what's really cool about today's day and age is you can create that through the digital technology, which we've all proven, and it works. It works. I probably would work better if we were on a village together, you know, for sure, but it does work pretty good. You know, it's. It's. It's pretty awesome.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Thank you for speaking to that, because I. I have been thinking about that more and more about, you know, the. Even the way that we often think about healing in our culture is Very one to one, right. It's like, oh, are you in therapy? Which is. Therapy's great. One on one work is great. And it's not everything, but it's what we think of as a default, right? Oh, are you talking to someone? When we say, are you talking to someone? We mean a counselor or a therapist. We rarely mean a group. I. I really liked what you said, Luke, about 12 step groups. And I wanted to mention again, you know, holding down the Omega person on the call. I think it's hot when a man has been in a 12 step group or is in a 12 step group. Like, if I'm gonna meet a bunch of men at like a singles event, I will gravitate towards the men that have been in 12 step or in. Or in 12 step. To me that's sexy because it means he's doing his work and he's. He's touched some of those places. Yeah. So anyway, I wanted to talk about. I really appreciated what you said, Luke, about, you know, your life changed in a fundamental way when you got into the work of the, you know, the shadow work spaces. And being with small groups of men doing deep work. Small groups of men doing deep work is kind of the name of the game. And I want to kind of go into what you two have seen as specifically as shadow work facilitators. But what does a man, like, look at when he's, when he's doing this work? Because it's not always. I have a deep fear of being alone. Right. It doesn't show up as I have a deep fear of being alone necessarily. It could show up as I can't. I have a compulsive masturbation habit. I just can't stop watching porn. I've tried and tried. I've done this, I've done that, I've done, you know, all the fucking things. And I know it's getting in my way and I don't know how to get over it or work with it or whatever the word is. Or what I will say as a mentor type is that what I've seen in our work is men that have stayed in a relationship for too long, men that have stayed in a bad relationship for too long. And the driver has been their fear of being alone. So they've tolerated pretty terribly terrible behavior, sometimes dangerous behavior to themself and. Or to the kids because they're afraid of being alone. And they think that sort of like, what I have is better than nothing. Right. If I were to let this go, then I would have to face this big fear. So talk to me about. About, you know, what you've seen in terms of men that have worked with this in shadow work or wherever, whatever spaces. What happens when they actually touch into it? What is possible on the other side? How does integration work? What. What's it like?

Melanie Curtin: It.

Jason Lange: Right? It's like you got your band of brothers, you can handle more shit, you can take on more stress. And the quickest way we've really seen to create that specific bond for men is. Is for them to witness each other doing shadow work, to do this tremendously vulnerable, courageous, brave, like at the edge of their nervous system and being work. And there's. I don't really have the words for it other than what happens after. You know, our program, we work with guys for, I don't know, 10 weeks. Strangers at the beginning, lifelong mates at the end. I mean, like lifelong mates. The. The ones that really want that in their life. But there's a certain type of bonding from witnessing another man go into his work that is just. It's unlike anything else we've found. The closest, you know, thing I've heard, I have not experienced this. But, you know, we, both of us, all three of us, have worked with vets before, and they talk about that experience of, you know, once you've gone through intensive combat life and death situations, you come back and you're just deeply bonded. And it creates this whole thing where people keep going back because they don't want to leave their brothers behind and sisters behind. In a sense, there's a version of that that happens in this deep group kind of cathartic shadow work that is hard to describe, easy to experience.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I want to also name that. These kinds of healing spaces that we're talking about are safe places to bring a lot of intensity. So the kind of. This kind of abject terror that I was experiencing around, what if I die alone? That's a big feeling. It's a big feeling. And it's the kind of feeling that you can't just talk through because sometimes, often it's preverbal. So it's not even really about something that happened when you were talking. It's about a baby that wasn't held at the right time and just had this completely overwhelming fear of abandonment or of death, really. And these kinds of spaces that are created at places like our retreat or the shadow work groups that you to run are safe containers with knowledgeable, skilled mentors who know how to hold those big feelings, help people process those big feelings, purge some of those big feelings, actually get it through the body so that it's not stuck in the kidneys or in the lungs or in the heart or in the gallbladder or in the pancreas or in the tissues. Our issues are in our tissues, and we need these sacred spaces to be able to actually move that energy. Otherwise, it does stay stuck. And then often what you end up with is health problems. So, Luke, do you want to touch on a little bit of what you witnessed and maybe, I don't know, talk about some clients or. Or what you've seen when men have actually processed some of this.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, y' all know, you just said it. The issues absolutely live in the tissues as. As vibratory imprints of pain. Vibratory imprints of pain that our nervous system responded to at some point in our life. And it responds in five ways. We fight if we're little. Likely, we don't fight. We. We flight, we run away or we freeze. This is more common when you're little. Or my adaptation, which is to please or fawn, to become incredibly friendly and helpful, which is an adaptation of freeze. But that happens. And then what evolves? Sometime in adolescence, I like to throw in the fifth one, which is fuck. Which is you start masturbating, you look at porn, and that's a way to get away from pain fast and fear you. You somatize it. You distance yourself from whatever the threat is. So those are the five reflexes of the nervous system. And we're all built that way, so it's not an indictment on any one of us. We're all built that way. Anything occurs in our lives that's hard, that's painful, that's stressful. However, whatever. Whatever response was strongest, we do one or two of those. Most of us, all of us. So shadow work. Our experience is really starting to trace which one. Which one occurs. And that's the first thing Jason and I notice is, oh, there's freeze here. There's. Everything's fine. I'm friendly, like the nice guy who's like, just twisted everything into, like, I'm in service to the world. That's. That's. Please, that's fawn. That's my. That's my archetype. There's the. There's the pornographic sex stuff, sex addiction. That's. That's. Let me my way through my pain, right? And then sometimes we get fight, you know, like the kind of. The macho guy that's just like, you know, kind of reacts that way. But it's. We put culture around these things and call it all these things that. The level of. Of the Internet and so to speak, but they're just nervous system responses. It's just like, no, we're all built this way. It's not a big deal. There's nothing wrong with it. I think the. Jason and I talk about the masculine vortex, we kind of reduce it down to the. This experience of masculine love. But as I sit with it more, and I think Jason would agree, and you would too, Melanie. The experience of being. Experience with being with men, with men, being with men, and feeling truly safe to not only bring anything forward, but to bring it forward fully in a way that it's never been allowed to be brought, is. Is not just love. There's a. There's a. There's a kind of vibratory potency to that space. There's longing in it. There's deep, deep enthusiasm and kind of cheerleading and like. Like a father would for a son. You want to see the very best in your child. There's that kind of feeling of like, I want this for you. I want this for you. And there's like a willing forward for all the men holding the space for this man to heal. There's a kind of shakti, a power that generates when men want other men to heal and grow. That's. That's more than love. It's. It's. It's got a. It's got a. I mean, I want to say, divine quality to it, but a power. And that happens in the group 100%. And you start to realize, oh, at the source of masculinity is not necessarily, like, toughness and that kind of thing. At the source of masculinity is wanting the very best for another human being. And that's what happens in all of our groups, Pillars, Heart of Shadow. The men start rooting for each other, and it's not like a sporting event. You're like, yeah, you know, let's go, Bengals, whoever's the hot team this year or whatever. No, it's like you're cheering for the thing that is, like, we all want more than anything. And that's why the comparison to war is so crucial. Jason, it's like, no, when you're at war, you're rooting for your brothers, like, because you want them to live. It's a similar thing in deep shadow work. You want this man to live, like, not survive, but to live for the first time in a way that he hasn't. And. And that energy is what gets generated in. I know, in Pillars. I know it for sure in Heart of Shadow. And is it a kind of vortex? It's really the bringing forward of the very best of what it means to be a human being and creating a space for that to show up. So that's. That's. That's really the kind of driver behind the program. And I think, really, what makes the three of us want to, like, keep doing this work, it's like, it's hard work. You know, the three of us have to be so clear in our own lives to offer it. It's not like, oh, let's decide to do this today. That sounds like a great idea. It's like, no. How about you spend a lifetime refining yourself to be able to hold an intention that's this clear, you know? So that's why we say, in the Heart of Shadow, it's the end of loneliness. You know, you're never alone, not again. So you start to realize, wow, when you can root someone into Their fullness and true size and watch them actually become it. Like you said, Melanie, it's kind of a miracle. Anything's possible. And I think our experiences, it's even beyond that. This is a principle of the universe. When you align enough willpower behind something that's pure and beautiful and worthy of life, nothing gets in the way of that, you know? And we've all seen it many, many times.

Melanie Curtin: That was beautiful, Luke. I want it on a tapestry. When you can root someone into their true size, it's a miracle. And I really especially like that image of a tree, because we've made the analogy many times of an aspen. A grove of aspen is one of the largest living organisms on Earth because it shares a root system. So you look at it above ground, and it looks like one tree, but the grove shares roots. So it is one organism. And I think there's one in. I think it's the Pacific Northwest. It's either the Pacific Northwest or Russia. There's a grove of aspen that's one of the largest living organisms on planet Earth. And I feel like that's kind of what these groups are. Right. The end of loneliness is a great way of putting it. Of you are not alone anymore. You have a team that really sees you, that you can bring anything to. And the kinds of breakthroughs that are possible from there are pretty extraordinary. So, um, you two are leading Heart of Shadow coming up. Um, Jason, do you want to take us through just a few of those details and then just a few of the kind of common reasons that men are showing up to this retreat? For example, been trying to make the love relationship thing work for 10 years and. Or I feel like I have anxious attachment and I just haven't been able to get to the other side of it. Or what are just a few common reasons. And then Luke, you can add to that.

Jason Lange: Yeah. So this will be Luke and I's sixth cohort of the Heart of Shadow. We're rounding out our third year here, which is kind of incredible already, and it starts September 22nd. And it's a unique program in that it's a hybrid of virtual with live retreat in the middle. So, like, I shared a lot of guys that. Not all, but a number of the guys we work with. Part of their loneliness comes from wounding with other men. And so joining something like a men's group in itself is edgy as fuck, is actually a stressor, in a sense. And what we found is giving men really a month and a half, six weeks to meet each other weekly online first really helps ease and create the trust. So that when we get to the retreat, you know, the other men, and we go deep and we go deep fast, and we can't tell you exactly where we're going to go with you. Other than inside of you is an impulse of something more, that bigger, that edge, that threshold, a spot in your nervous system you've never quite stretched into. And sometimes it's around fear, sometimes it's around anger, sometimes it's around shame. Lots of different manifestations that we create the context. And then Luke and I bring our facilitation to help you step into that when you're ready. And it is that feeling of everyone wants it for you. Not going to shame you if you don't go there. But there's a feeling of we're here for you to go wherever you need to go and you do not have to go alone. Right. That's the primary shift, I think, for a lot of guys in that there's a certain type of often musculature that there's like, whether it's setting a boundary or bringing a type of vulnerability in relationship. Like, these are really tactical and tangible things that we end up guiding men through. And we really create a framework for men that Luke and I are going to take you as deep as we can in this program, in the work, in the retreat. And what we found is that depth often carries the group forward. So every group we've created a manifestation of, it has continued moving forward. Not every man, but the men who are really ready take with them this group of men that as Luke and I have been talking about. Basically the group becomes this engine of metabolism that there's. There's literally nothing you can't bring. Darkness, lightness, challenge, emotional disconnection, dysregulate. You bring it to the group and it helps you metabolize it. And that is so freeing for men. It's like, oh, fuck, I don't have to be afraid anymore because I can bring it here and I don't have to be alone anymore because these are men that will receive any part of me. And we teach you kind of how to do that, right. Without collapsing into each other in a sense, but really holding that high vision and standard for each other, which is so incredible. And frankly, the other thing that guys are sometimes surprised about, it's fun as fuck. Like, we will be doing the deepest, most gnarly work and a heartbeat away is the deepest laughter and enjoyment because it's like, oh, wow, yeah. This thing I've Been carrying all these years, Fuck it, That's done. Like, it's over. There's no going back. When you join a program like this, you experience a type of brotherhood that is revelatory and, you know, yeah, guys come to us when they're feeling stuck in relationships, when they're having autoimmune disorders, when their marriage is falling apart, when they can't get into a relationship, when they're stuck around work or jobs. Like, we've had all of it. Oftentimes it's just really. There's. I'm in some kind of pain and I do not know how to get out of it, and I don't know where it's coming from. Sometimes I do. A lot of times, you know, the men don't. And. We really create this potent engine that's born of the experience Luke and I have had from doing this in our own group now, like he said, for many years now. And what that's brought and helped us move through in our lives in terms of, you know, pretty major life stressors for men. Men in our group and things that. I know for sure I would have collapsed just. I couldn't have gotten through it had I not had spaces to consciously collapse into. Like, quite literally, Luke has consciously collapsed. Just like, fuck, I can't even hold myself up anymore right now. Which paradoxically means I can walk back home, spine erect, ready to go, with my brothers at my side. So Heart of Shadow is we take you on a tour of the different ways Shadow shows up. There's like a different lens in each way each week of the program. That's kind of. That are just gateways again. It's all gateways to the deepest version of you that we call forward in a group which both. We do this in pillars and we do it in a Heart of Shadow because it's more effective. It doesn't replace the solo work, but in terms of the reverberations in what we see of the way each man's work starts the work of every other man. So it's like a live wire. As one man does work, other men start actually doing their work, just witnessing it. And it accelerates things in a pretty profound and speedy way in some sense that men are like, I wasn't going to share about, you know, but then I saw. But you did that, and now I have to do that. Like, I feel ready to do that because I saw you do that. And it just keeps going deeper and deeper in the experience. And. Yeah. Anything else, Luke? I'm gonna pause There. Beautifully. Beautifully stated and thorough and clear. And, you know, I think that the. The experience that I'll share personally that continues to reveal its gifts is that I have only become more and more open to the love and support of men, not just my shadow work group anymore. And like you said, Jason, we realize as men, all of a sudden, like, we're actually afraid of each other. And we've been conditioned to be that way. And I'm getting to have this incredible experience as my life continues to evolve of. Because I'm getting better at relating to men and being open to men, I can start to draw out love and care from men all the time. And so that fuel source of masculine presence is open to me because of my experience in doing Heart of Shadow with Jason many, many, many years ago. And I think the thing just to highlight is that this is a nutrient that men don't even know they're missing. It's so strange, you know, and it's so true that what we do is we. We really put so much on women or porn or marijuana, all these plants and substances to fill this thing that we don't know is missing. And. And it is. And it. You know, we pervert it by saying it has something to do with sex and preference. It's like, no, it's not. There's. There's two energies in the world, at least relationally. There's. There's yang and yin. There's masculine and feminine. And it's like if you're trying to get the feminine to do all the things you need it to do, it's just never gonna do that, you know, so you can start to feel so much better. Like, your energy comes up. You know, your vitality comes up. Your sense of safety increases as you learn to take on this nutrient. And yeah, for sure. I think Heart of Shadow is this accelerant. It's like, that's missing. I want it. Let me bring it into my life. There are slower ways to go about this that are fine, but if you're ready to fuel it up, this is a pathway, and we've designed it in a way for it to be utterly sustainable. It just continues to live on, totally independent of Jason and I. It's. It's decentralized. We don't. Jason and I don't own the group. It's not our group. Once the program's over, it's your group. You own it. You're responsible for it. You know, you have ownership over it. So it's, you know, it's. It's a, it's a very special thing. It's a very special thing in a time that needs men masculinity to come forward. And the one thing I'll say about masculinity, I don't believe in toxic masculinity and I don't believe in positive masculinity. I just believe in masculinity. Masculinity has within it one clear ingredient and that it has an open heart. It's compassionate, has this ability to feel life, to speak to life, to relate to life, to love life with strength and clarity and leadership. Anything that calls itself masculinity, that doesn't have that is not even in the realm of humanity. Right. So we bring that forward in a heart of shadow. We really bring forward the best of what it means to be in masculine presence. Right. So love to have you. We would love to have you.