I appeared on Melanie Curtin's podcast Dear Men recently, and we got into something I don't talk about all the time but that's been a huge part of my journey. The late bloomer experience.
For me, that meant being a virgin until 26 and a half. No sex, barely any kissing before college, and this deep pattern of freezing up right when intimacy would have been possible. I'd get angsty, tight, weird. The woman could feel it, and she'd pull away. Then I'd get more hooked and desperate, which made everything worse. A lot of that traced back to my family system, my relationship with my mom, and just not having any musculature around emotional or physical closeness.
But we also talked about the other kind of late bloomer I see in men I work with. The guys who did the inner work early, got clear on their shadow material, worked through their wounds, became great partners. But career wise, purpose wise, they're still finding their footing at 35 or 40. Different flavor, same underlying grief of feeling behind.
What really landed for me in this conversation was naming the cost of both patterns. When you're a late bloomer around intimacy, you miss those early explorations, that innocent discovery phase. It's real grief, not shallow. And when you're a late bloomer around purpose and career, you're trying to build stability later while others already have it locked in. Both come with their own type of pain and both require some serious self compassion to work through.
We also got into the arrows men carry in their hearts. Those moments where fear won and the opportunity passed. The woman in the elevator you never approached. The risk you never took. Those haunt us way more than the times we tried and it didn't work out. That's why having community, men's groups, brothers who will catch you when you swing and miss, it makes all the difference. It's what lets you actually take the risks instead of staying stuck.
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Jason Lange: Every man carries a few arrows in his heart of moments, oftentimes around intimacy in women, but sometimes around career or creative risk where there was an opportunity for us to go for something. But the fear won and that opportunity passed. So she left the elevator. Or I never had the chance to present that thing. Or, you know, who knows? Melanie Curtin: That was beautiful. Thank you. I really feel like a lot of listeners are going to be nodding along to that deep sense of being behind. It's one of the things that we hear from our clients often, particularly in the. As they're beginning the work. I think that diminishes as they do the work, but especially as they're beginning the work, that feeling of being behind in some way. And that can manifest in different ways. One of the things we're going to talk about is, you know, folks that are. That get married earlier. Right. Sooner in life, but then the marriage doesn't work out. And so now let's say they're in their 30s, 40s, or 50s, and they're divorced. And there's a feeling of, I'm behind. I had this. This thing that didn't work out, and now I'm behind in some way. And then there are the men that didn't get married, and. And they're in their 30s, 40s, or 50s, and they're like, oh, and there's something wrong with me. I'm behind. You know, so there's lots of different ways to feel behind, but it does seem to be a universal fear and concern and something that we're going to directly address through this episode. Yeah, because one. So I'll just make one quick point, for example, which is that I'm in my 40s and I'm single. I actually feel more optimistic now about my dating life than I ever have, because I know that there's a whole contingent of men that are doing the work or have been doing the work because their first relationship didn't work out. And that's a major prompt for a lot of men. A lot of the men that we see have gone through a breakup or lost a relationship or marriage hasn't worked out, and now they're doing their personal growth work. I'm interested in those men. I want to be with a man who's doing his work. So I'm like, this is great. There's a whole bunch of men getting out of relationships, doing their personal growth, personal growth work back on the market that are like really ready. And I think that's something that, you know, for me, looking at that man, he might feel behind, but to me I'm like, that's great. I'm very like, you're attractive to me. Yes. We had this discussion about, you know, for example, I think it's attractive when a man has been through 12 step programs. Some men might feel like, oh, does it make me deficient or something? And I'm like, I think that's attractive. I'd rather be with a man who I know has been doing his work because we've all got our stuff. Everybody has their stuff. Everybody has unprocessed trauma, in my opinion. Well, or it's processed, but everybody's got the trauma. Whether you're dealing with it or not, that's the difference. And the men that are dealing with it are the ones that I want to be with. So I want to go back very quickly before we go into the archetypes. You mentioned that all you said, quote all my somatic unprocessed wounding would come forward when I was with. With a woman or a young woman, I guess. Can you say in layperson's terms what that means? What would actually happen? What, you know, were you tongue tied? What. What actually manifested when you'd be kind of going along in your day, being just fine, interacting with people, going to class, whatever it was. And then there'd be women. What would happen?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, how it played out a number of times was I was better far away. Like, the early stuff would be okay, but then as we would get closer to actually building some kind of intimacy or definitely when there were mom where touch would have been appropriate, I would kind of inner freeze, but not outer freeze necessarily. So, like I could kind of talk, but then I get like a little still in frozen. And then the energy would get weird and then she could feel it and then she'd Pull away. And then I'd kind of get more angsty. Angsty was a huge thing for me. So like this angsty, like you should like me. Do you like me? And then if you don't like me, I get like hooked on you in a sense. Man. I can't remember what it's from. Some thoughtful literary. Or maybe you will remember there was some book, there was a girl I chased in high school. I cannot remember the book. I feel like it was like one of those English tales. But there was this character Archer who was this really angsty guy who was kind of hooked on a woman. And I remember she was like, you're being such an archer. And it always stood with me. And then I repeated that over and over and over again where I would like kind of not be relaxed in the moments that would have actually created connection and attraction. And then I would feel them separate, you know, losing interest. And then I would like tighten up and kind of. I don't know. I honestly, I don't know what I was wanting other than them to say, I like you, you know, Even though at that point I wouldn't have been giving them anything to be attracted to in. In a lot of ways. So it, for me, it was just the discomfort around my physicality, being in my body, closeness, touch, emotional intimacy, all things that had roots in my family system and my relationship with my mom that I had to work through and had to do some work to come to terms with. Self loathing, self, you know, all that stuff was under there until I got a lot more comfortable with that and, you know, in a lot of ways eventually just learned to get out of my own way of like, oh, okay. You know, I think what I fell prey to a lot in this was kind of this rather unrealistic thing of. I call it the like elementary school notes. Like, the hope was someone would like tell me they liked me and then I would feel comfortable to like make the move or the kiss or whatever. But I did not have capacity to stay relaxed and come forward when it was more like bodily and about attunement and energy, like, because I just did not have practice or experience with that. So I was kind of like longing for certain words which in my mind would relax my nervous system and allow something to come through. And lo and behold, you know, in my family system, we never talked about anything. There was no emotional, just robots in the same house. So it's not at all a surprise to me this, you know, showed up in my pursuing of women.
Melanie Curtin: I want to Highlight what you just said, because I think it's really poignant. And I'm working with a client right now who said, yeah, my family was four individuals living in a house. It was very empty. And I just got this sense of it wasn't a cohesive, loving, intimate family unit. It was just people living in a house together. And that sense of emptiness or isolation, loneliness is very common. I would say a lot of our clients have experienced that as a child in one way or another, which can be extra confusing when your basic needs were met. So you were clothed, you were housed, you were taken to your soccer practice or whatever was technically being done. You were being. Being supported. But you weren't loved in a deep way. You weren't attuned to. There was no one slowing down with you to help you understand how you were feeling or what you were wanting or how to talk to that girl in your class or anything. It was just this blank space, which is also known as emotional neglect. I'm going to put a note in here. We've done an episode on emotional neglect. I know that can sound like a scary term, but if you think that might have been you, I do recommend that episode. And I'm also going to drop an episode that we did on freeze. So if you're resonating with any of what Jason's saying about that freeze state, when you get around a woman, then you probably want to listen to that. So I want to go into the archetypes now of the different folks that.
Melanie Curtin: That's a really good point. I think that's it. And I think there are certain unique points in the lived experience of being a man in our culture and the lived experience of being a woman. And I think that's such a great, great point about the way that it feels as a man to be especially sexually inexperienced and then to have that continue through, you know, your 20s or 30s or even 40s, it compounds. It's like it gets. It gets more scary. It gets. Each year that passes, it gets more terrifying. And I think that it's worth saying up front that transformation is always possible and breakthrough is always possible. Oops, sorry. Breakthrough is always possible. And we've seen pretty dramatic breakthroughs in our work and we'll get to some of that in. In our stories. But I think one of the most inspiring things to me is that it doesn't have take that long. And one thing I do want to say as a woman is that.
Jason Lange: I.
Melanie Curtin: Don'T care that much about a man's level of experience. I care about his presence in the moment right now. I care about how it feels to be with him right now, how much I feel his attention on me, how much I feel his presence, his depth of presence, his capacity right now. So it doesn't matter as much to me whether he's had a lot of experience as whether he's done the work to become present in his life now and present with me now. And I think I've spoken to a lot of women friends, actually. I think we might have even addressed this in a girl talk recently where I think there were three or four of us on the call, and we all basically agreed that we don't really care about level of experience and level of Experience, particularly when it comes to sex, does not correlate to being good in bed. Right. Just because a man has a lot of experience does not make him good in bed. Because a lot of what we're looking for is attunement and presence. And that is only possible if you're doing, if you're doing the work. So, yeah, just wanted to address that and say that I, I see that difference. There's a difference in our lived experiences. So there's different archetypes here when it comes to being a late bloomer. What does that mean? The first one that we're going to talk about is where a man is very successful, career wise, but not successful in sex and relationships. So we have a couple of examples of this. One is a man that was in his, I think, early 30s and had a lot of, yeah, career success, interesting profession, really liked what he did. And when we're saying the word successful, we're not. I don't just mean financially successful, I mean alignment. So it feels like I'm in a good career for me, I'm able to contribute and I make money. So it's not necessarily just one, one metric there. But he was really, really inexperienced when it came to women. And he was a good example of someone who had a background of emotional neglect and wasn't taught a lot of things and didn't have people to slow down. I'd say there's a certain amount of coldness in his house. Not that his parents were, you know, evil or doing something manipulative or bad, but there was just an absence, a lack of attunement and warmth and closeness and a love and that. And what was really interesting about him was that, you know, similar to what we've been saying about, you know, time and trajectory, like nothing had been happening for years and years and years. And then within a few months of working with us, I think it was less than six months, he met a really good partner for him. It's going really well. And it feels like there's a lot of that warmth and closeness and intimacy and love and grace and just, it's, it's not just like, oh, great, he got to have sex, but it's like this is a potential life partner for him. Not every story is going to be as dramatic as that, but can you share a little bit about what you witnessed in that transformation?
Jason Lange: Yeah. This was a man who really just came into his body and I think for the first time in his life too, particularly around these things, just felt some fucking support right A place to talk about it, feel like he wasn't weirdo or alone, and just know that he had people on his team to help him, you know, cross this, cross this kind of divide in his being. He just hadn't really found a way over, but with, you know, just a little bit of support, he walked himself right over that bridge, you know, and I think that's a, a thing I'll note, kind of like you were talking about. It's, it's never too late. And while we're certainly both of the mindset, growth never ends. Like wholeness is not a place you get to, it's a direction. But when you have the right system, growth can actually happen pretty fast, right? In any capacity. Whether that's weight loss, relational changing your. When you finally have the right feedback loop of oh, I'm getting the knowledge I need and I'm implementing it and there's a whole mechanism that gets fired up. Things can change pretty fast. And he was an example of, you know, a lot of the cards were set on the table, but we just need, he just needed a little piece to bring it all together, you know, to, to, to, to, to enact this thing. And he very much did. And it changed. And he feels a lot more relaxed in himself and he's creating a beautiful relationship now. And it, you know, I, I viscerally remember some moments with him though, it was just like coming into his body to feel and suddenly energy, you know, starts coursing through your body when you do that. And that is deeply tried or tied to embodiment attraction, polarity, all of that, you know, particularly as men like, oh, like there's fire in my belly now because it's easy for us to just, you know, carve a path through life, you know, he wasn't the only man like this. But, you know, we can throw ourselves into work, throw ourselves into our head and kind of stay up here and not ever come down. And once he had the courage to, and support around him to just, you know, fuck it, I'm coming down, coming down into my body, into what I want. I've been trying this alone for a long time. Man, did his life change fast.
Melanie Curtin: Oh, I really feel that I've been trying this alone for a long time. I just want to pause on that because there are so many men that we work with that just feel alone and have never had meaningful support and guidance and real dropped in vulnerable conversations or spaces with other men. And it's just so heartbreaking to me, that's such a Lonely place to be. And of course we're not gonna move forward in our lives when we feel that deeply alone. It's kind of a, it's a stopping point, you know, there's no way through it. We're social animals. We're meant to be in intimate relationships with others, not just surface level relationships with others. And it's too easy in our modern world to, to get a, get by with just those surface level relationships. And I felt a lot of compassion for that place of, you know, I could just feel as a woman, I could just feel that the number of men that I meet that are just in their head and I can't, I can't feel them in their bodies. And they, I can tell that they, they like me or they want to come to, towards me. And I'm like, I can't feel you. Like, I'm not, I'm not interested. And I can, I can sense that they, they're confused. They don't know why. It's like, well, what is wrong with me that you aren't interested? This is not a conscious conversation that I have out loud, but I can kind of get that sense. And it's, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, you need to do some work, you need to do some inner work you need to do. You need to get in touch with your, your body, you need to get in touch with that. Because otherwise I'm not, I'm not. It doesn't polarize me. You know, I'm not, I can't really feel you. I need to be able to feel you. And I think for a lot of men that's a confusing phrase. Like, I've never said that to a man when he's been like, emma, I want to ask you out. And I'm like, I can't feel you. Like, he's not going to know what that means. And that's part of why we do what we do, because it is kind of confusing. What the hell does that mean? You can't feel me? I'm right here. You know, what can't you feel? Why, you know, I don't understand. And we sort of take men through what that means and how to get into their bodies and all, and all of that. That's the, that we do. And the results are pretty drastic. And it's, and it's, it's both subtle and obvious at the same time. And I think that's one of the reasons why, you know, the actual outer appearance of a man is Far less important than the inner animation of that man. Who, who. What is the consciousness that is animating that man's body. That's what's actually attractive and polarizing. And a lot of men get stuck on the exterior. Like, if I just do this or I just own this, or I just, you know, if I do the trappings thing, then it'll work when it's really an inside job. So for this archetype, we wanted to go over a little bit of just the cost of these. And for this one, one of the costs is grief. The feeling of missing out. Like, I didn't get my sexy hot twenties. I didn't have, you know, when I was a teenager, I didn't make out in cars. I didn't have all of those fun, light hearted experiences with women. Because a lot of times, you know, as we, as we age, right, as we get into particularly like 30s, 40s and up, there's more of a. There feels like there are more stakes in relationships, right. It's not just like, oh, I'm 16 and we're making out on the beach at this summer bonfire. It's more like, oh, do you want kids? You know, what's your K like? You know, what, what are the practicalities of a life together? So can you share a little bit about that? Because I think you, you actually have.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I really feel that sense of, you know, like I never got to like make out on the couch while the parents were upstairs and only go so far because one of us or both of us didn't want to go all the way. And just what is, what is that like to like, you know, slow down and, and kind of just have the extended makeout or like, oh, getting to a certain base and, and that. Yeah, that just all of the, the summer love, like you said, like those.
Jason Lange: It's.
Melanie Curtin: We see it a lot in films and TVs and the coming of age type type situations where, you know, in our work I'd say that, you know, we often will see men make significant breakthroughs in this area just much later. They're just, they're just doing it later and there's a lot of celebration and then there's also the grief. It's something kind of coexist. They live alongside each other. I think what I want to impress upon listeners is that this is workable, this is changeable, this is transformational. You can, you can get there. You are not stuck. We've seen, we've seen it all, baby. And it, it's. Everything's possible. So that's what I would like to say about that one. The second archetype is this is an interesting one. This is one that we've seen a few times where a man will attract unavailable women. So it kind of looks like something's happening, but it's not really happening or it's not happening to the depth of intimacy that he's really wanting. A lot of times these men are moderately successful, career care wise, but not necessarily in alignment, meaning they don't necessarily like what they do or who they do it with. They don't necessarily click with their boss or their team. So there, there's there's kind of like an in between sense of, you know, I'm sort of dating a woman or I've attracted a woman, but she lives far away or she's got, you know, she's got kids and she's not really. And I. There's nothing wrong with having kids and you don't. Having kids doesn't make you emotionally unavailable. But what we've seen is that often we've had men that are dating someone and there's just, there are just things in the way, right? They're just obstacles or blocks to connection in one way or another. That, that. So that the the cost to this one is just not really having what you want. It's like. It's sort of, kind of almost maybe it. But it's not really what you want. It's not at the depth that you want. It's not the right fit for you in some way. And just there's this pain around.
Jason Lange: Ugh.
Melanie Curtin: Like I'm kind of. I'm kind of stuck, you know, so it looks like there's something happening, but I'm not really getting what I want. Can you share a little bit about that? For what we've seen from men there.
Melanie Curtin: I think that's something that I really want to leave listeners with is that there is no, none of these is good or better than the others. They're just different. So similar to different kinds of cuisine. None is better than the other. They're just different. And I think that's the thing is that we all have this view, like, oh God, I'm so behind. Look at all these things I haven't accomplished yet and I haven't done. And we look at other people and we're like, oh, they have it so together. And the truth is that we're all on our own journeys and you are where you are. And the more that you can get the right support and the right help and the right community structure in to help with whatever your version is, the better. And there's no, there's no good or bad or right or wrong. It's just these are just different. These are just some archetypes. The last one that we have on here is actually a growing issue and I was just reading a book that I will also drop in the show notes. It's called Of Boys and Men. Men, why the Modern Male is Struggling, why it matters and what to do about it. And this archetype is the, excuse me, the sort of failure to launch. So this man might be in a living situation he doesn't love. Perhaps he's living, you know, in a relative's basement. Maybe he's stuck in a job he doesn't like, doesn't know how to get out of it or get something better, maybe stuck in terms of love and sex and relationships, hasn't really had a lot of experience. Just a sort of generalized delay in maturation and maturity. And this is a growing issue not just in North America, but around the world. There's a whole term in Japan for young men, bachelors that don't really leave their apartment. They get food delivered, they have their video game console. And it's a growing trend that there's a lot of challenges for young men around sort of like, purposelessness or, like, what is the point? You know, kind of like. And, And. And part of what the book talks about, which I would be interested in, anyone that does read it, I think it's quite an important book, is that there. That sense of. There used to be social constructs around the role of a man, and a lot of those have been dismantled quite quickly within the last two generations. But we have not updated our sense of what masculinity is. And so we still have this outdated idea that. That men are supposed to be the breadwinners, but it's actually harder to get a job and keep a job that pays well. It's harder than ever around the world, not just in North America. So. And that's not the only issue that is part of the issue, but this just sort of sense of, you know, lack of motivation, lack of purpose, drift, drifting around, that kind of thing. And so can you. Yeah. Can you share a little bit about what you've witnessed in this. This arena and with clients that we've worked with or just that you've seen in your own life?
Jason Lange: Yeah. You know, this can happen at any age. It's definitely more of a crisis with younger, younger kids. And I think it was accentuated by the COVID pandemic. There were a lot of kids who, you know, had a gap of two or three years of not socializing in social environments. And you build some habits, and it can be hard to undo those. And so this is just. Yeah, you know, failure to launch in a sense of. I. I feel stuck. I. I don't have a girlfriend. I don't know how to start dating a girlfriend. I don't even have a job. So I don't feel like I'm making any money. And I don't really have a lot of confidence in myself. And I feel like since I'm not, like, making a lot of money, like, who would want to date me? And it can kind of just spiral into, you know, feeling Stuck at home, maybe even living with my parents. I mean, it's also just. This isn't all like an individual man's fault. Culturally, it's very different. Different, right. Cost of living is through the roof, right? When our parents were coming of age, you could buy a house off a single income family with someone who didn't necessarily have a collegiate degree. They just had a job, they worked for 30 or 40 years and you were able to build equity and, and that's all kind of gone by the wayside. And so if you're in a certain young generation, it's like, I don't even know how to get my foot in the door for a lot of these things. And this is a really painful place for guys where it's just, it's not even like, you know, our second archetype was like, there's kind of some movement, but it's not really satisfying. I'm not really getting what I want, but I'm like kind of in the world, you know, I have friends, I'm doing stuff. This is just often like nothing is working. I feel so stuck. And who even wants me? Like, what is my value to society? This is a question that hits a lot of men, but I think particularly these young men who, you know, there used to be paths that would kind of onboard men into careers or trades or different things. And a lot of that's just gone. I mean, it's just gone. You know, I think I saw something, it's something like at least 60, it might even be 80%. It might be from that book of bachelor's degrees. Now are women. Like the educational system is going women. A lot of the kind of entry level jobs for men are kind of disappearing. There is a, a, you know, I'm going to go nerdy here. But again, societally, structurally we're moving into AI and automation. So a lot of jobs that used to require repetition, manual labor, those are the things that are going away. And our culture has shifted a lot more towards service and relational jobs. Right. Things like nursing, even coaching, like, um, those are the jobs that are still around. I have to interact with a human being and my capacity to do that is part of what makes me good at the job. So that's happening. And then men from a young age, I've talked to ad nauseam about this. We're not taught how to do that, how to be relational, how to be in our bodies, how to connect, how to create intimacy, all that. So a lot of those jobs women tend to thrive more in because you do. You actually have to hold differences and learn how to deal with cranky people. And, you know, it takes a lot of capacity. A lot of us knit. Many men never have the opportunity to develop those skills. So we're. We're left, like, what do I do? I don't know how to make any progress anywhere. And that's where I think the particular breakdown of that is. Then when it's that combined with. And I have no access to any men to kind of guide me along the way of just saying, hey, let's try this, or let's try this, or literally come help me do this. You know, like, I think there's a. A deep craving in a lot of men to, like, get good at something, but they don't even know what it is. Like, we. We can't all be an Instagram influencer.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, you're making a lot of the points that are made in this book, and if this topic is interesting to you and you're listening, I strongly recommend it. The author, Richard Reeves, also has some TED Talks, so if you don't want to read a whole book, you can watch some of those TED talks. Of the interesting points that he makes is that he argues that biologically, we should actually be starting boys a year later than girls in school. That's just because of the way that brains develop. That should be a standard thing across. Across schooling. And he also talks about a little of what you're talking about, which is we talk about STEM or steam, and he talks about heal, H E A L. And I can't remember exactly what that acronym acronym is for, but it's basically the jobs that you're talking about that do require more relational skill and that we need to normalize those for men. I'll give you a very quick example. I had a ton of respect for an ex that I was with. He had been in the Marines for a few years. He got out, and when he got out of the Marines, he went and got a book about the hundred best jobs, and he looked at the top 10, and one of them was being a nurse. Because nursing is a very stable career and it's only gonna. Your pay increases over time. You can travel anywhere. You got a lot of choices as a nurse. So he trained and became an orthopedic surgical nurse within, I think, 20 months. He did one of those accelerated nursing programs. And I remember thinking at the time, that is so practical. You know, you went out and got a book. Like, I struggled with my career for maybe 20 years. This was like what should I do with my life? It's got to be perfect. It's got to be an expression of my soul. And he was like, what's like a practical job that will, you know, kind of fit me because he did like to help people. And he was also incredibly strong, which you need in orthopedics. So I think that that kind of thing of normalizing that nursing is a masculine career. We. We still. I think there's still a perception of certain careers as being masculine or feminine, and we need to update all of that. And, you know, that sense of. Of purpose you just said, who even wants me? What is my value to society? I think that's really at the core of this arch type is like, what am I doing and what is the point? And I really appreciate what you said, Jason, about one thing that we've seen is be helpful for this is getting around other men that can help support you, that can see your value beyond just what you do, but just who you are. Because you are valuable. You are a human being. You are valuable. You don't have to do anything to earn that value. You simply are. And that. That is lacking. You know, all of this stuff we talk about with respect to social isolation. There are so many men we've worked with, some of these men who. Their dad maybe isn't in the picture or isn't reliable. It wasn't. Wasn't a good dad in some way. So the only real contact they have is with their mom or maybe some friends. But there's a. There's a certain level of isolation to this archetype that I think they. This person must get around other characters, caring people, specifically men. You gotta get yourself into a men's groove or some place where you're gonna be around men that are caring and supportive, you know, and supportive in a. In a way of helping you to take risks, helping you to take action, helping you to get moving. Cause there's a certain type of. I've said this before, but I'll say it again. Where we've worked with a few men who. It feels like, you know, when you're starting a video game and your avatar is just standing there. You haven't directed them to do anything in the world yet. That's a little bit how this. They're just kind of standing there in their lives. We need to get some movement and some action, some energy into the system to get them moving. And we've seen transformation. I'm remembering a guy who. Yeah, he moved out of a living situation. He Was not. He was not enjoying another one. Started taking improv. He got a bicycle. He just started moving. He started making friends at work. Everything kind of opened up for him because he was able to get started. And there was never really that. That sense of action or. Yeah, there's just. There's a lot to do and explore in life, and we need that nudge, we need that push, we need that energy to get us started, and then you can find your way on the path. And like you said, Jason, some. Some paths are a dead end, and then you turn around and you try again, and that's okay. Not everything's going to work out, but you got to be in motion. You got to be in action.
Jason Lange: And in community. I mean, I think that's just the main thing. Like, some of that opportunity comes from connection. A lot of times, right as we start connecting with people, it's like, oh, hey, I need some help with this. And suddenly you're doing this thing. And, you know, I just. I really feel for guys like this because, you know, another way to put this, too, is, like you mentioned in the book, a lot of these guys just don't know, well, what the fuck am I supposed to be, right? I was raised during MeToo, and I've heard that male sexuality is dangerous and toxic. All I hear is of toxic, masculine. I don't feel, you know, I'm not as academically oriented as some women I know in my life. There's not really any good jobs around me. Like, I. I can see how dark this can go pretty fast. And again, in community with other men, you just. You're gonna more likely find a path forward or at the very least, not suffer alone, which, to me, made a huge difference. And at some capacity, you know, you start getting around men in these ways. Older men or wiser men or men who are just, you know, in different places in their lives, things start to shift. And, you know, any man out there who maybe considers themselves in this category, I would say every man has some capacity to make, protect, or teach, right? Like in. If you find a way to contribute in that way, you have a great life ahead of you. And sometimes you just have to be around people and even get some ideas about what's possible. And other men can do that. Other men can also just, you know, like, I've. Like, we've heard this so many times in our program of, you know, I was out, I saw her across the bar, and I just thought of you two behind me saying, like, fucking, go for it. And that little not even physically in the room, but just, hey, you got people on your team, team that want you to win. That's the thing that makes a huge difference to men. Right. I don't have the exact research. It might be in this book, but it was something that blew me away last year where they talked about, particularly for men, masculine presence. It doesn't even have to be super consistent. So it is. It is like a single. A single interjection of an older man who gives a shit and just asks and offers some guidance, even if it's like one time at 13 years old, can completely change the trajectory of a boy's life. You know, it's great if you have consistent caregivers or parents or fathers, but just like a little dose of healthy masculine, of, hey, I believe in you, man. You can do it. Try this or try that, can completely change that direction in men's groups, men's community, all the stuff we're involved in can give you an extremely high dose of that.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I feel like, as a woman, I really want to say we do need you. We really need you. We need you now more than we've ever needed you. We really need you. You're. You're not superfluous. You are needed. And you can be that man that Jason was just describing. I think that's one of the things about this, you know, learning where and how to contribute. You know, one of the things that can really make a difference is working with. With young people, with, you know, kids, with young adults that are, you know, you. You feel like you're behind, but they're. They're still in middle school. Remember how miserable middle school was? Like, just think all of those younger versions of yourself and maybe get involved in something around that because they need you. You know, we. We really need you as a culture. So, yeah, if that's interesting to you, then maybe explore some volunteer opportunities. Just anything that gets you in the world interacting. And I think that's such a cool aspiration, right, to be that man that Jason just described. Because, yeah, the research is pretty clear, and it's not just for boys, but also for girl girls, that if. If there was one adult who truly saw you before the age of 18, your life path is. Is. Is much brighter. I don't remember the exact statistics, but it's basically like it could be a teacher, it could be an aunt or an uncle, it could be a parent. But we're talking usually about kids that had some form of neglect. But if there was an adult who really saw you who you felt seen by. That is often enough to have you make it through and have you want to live thrive right Actually go for it. So all of this talk of mentorship and community building. If you are interested in our work you can get us at Evolutionary Men Apply. You can also get me@dearmen podcastmail.com and I will drop all of those resources that we just talked about in the chat. There were several podcast episodes and a book and is there anything that you want to include before we wrap?
Jason Lange: I just thought I've some of you guys that have worked with us listening know have gotten this transmission. This is just a personal belief, but it's borne out. In my experience, time is a little woo woo. But time's not linear. It's elastic. And when you get into the right community, the right relationship, slotted in in the right ways in your life, you can live as much in a couple years as as you did in decades. So Even if you're 60 years old and thinking it's too late, it is not too late. You can have the types of experiences that I guarantee when you're on your deathbed, you'll be like, yeah, I'm so glad I got to live that.
Melanie Curtin: Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.
