361: Worried about being a late bloomer? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Every man carries a few arrows in his heart of moments, oftentimes around intimacy in women, but sometimes around career or creative risk where there was an opportunity for us to go for something. But the fear won and that opportunity passed. So she left the elevator. Or I never had the chance to present that thing. Or, you know, who knows? Melanie Curtin: That was beautiful. Thank you. I really feel like a lot of listeners are going to be nodding along to that deep sense of being behind. It's one of the things that we hear from our clients often, particularly in the. As they're beginning the work. I think that diminishes as they do the work, but especially as they're beginning the work, that feeling of being behind in some way. And that can manifest in different ways. One of the things we're going to talk about is, you know, folks that are. That get married earlier. Right. Sooner in life, but then the marriage doesn't work out. And so now let's say they're in their 30s, 40s, or 50s, and they're divorced. And there's a feeling of, I'm behind. I had this. This thing that didn't work out, and now I'm behind in some way. And then there are the men that didn't get married, and. And they're in their 30s, 40s, or 50s, and they're like, oh, and there's something wrong with me. I'm behind. You know, so there's lots of different ways to feel behind, but it does seem to be a universal fear and concern and something that we're going to directly address through this episode. Yeah, because one. So I'll just make one quick point, for example, which is that I'm in my 40s and I'm single. I actually feel more optimistic now about my dating life than I ever have, because I know that there's a whole contingent of men that are doing the work or have been doing the work because their first relationship didn't work out. And that's a major prompt for a lot of men. A lot of the men that we see have gone through a breakup or lost a relationship or marriage hasn't worked out, and now they're doing their personal growth work. I'm interested in those men. I want to be with a man who's doing his work. So I'm like, this is great. There's a whole bunch of men getting out of relationships, doing their personal growth, personal growth work back on the market that are like really ready. And I think that's something that, you know, for me, looking at that man, he might feel behind, but to me I'm like, that's great. I'm very like, you're attractive to me. Yes. We had this discussion about, you know, for example, I think it's attractive when a man has been through 12 step programs. Some men might feel like, oh, does it make me deficient or something? And I'm like, I think that's attractive. I'd rather be with a man who I know has been doing his work because we've all got our stuff. Everybody has their stuff. Everybody has unprocessed trauma, in my opinion. Well, or it's processed, but everybody's got the trauma. Whether you're dealing with it or not, that's the difference. And the men that are dealing with it are the ones that I want to be with. So I want to go back very quickly before we go into the archetypes. You mentioned that all you said, quote all my somatic unprocessed wounding would come forward when I was with. With a woman or a young woman, I guess. Can you say in layperson's terms what that means? What would actually happen? What, you know, were you tongue tied? What. What actually manifested when you'd be kind of going along in your day, being just fine, interacting with people, going to class, whatever it was. And then there'd be women. What would happen?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, how it played out a number of times was I was better far away. Like, the early stuff would be okay, but then as we would get closer to actually building some kind of intimacy or definitely when there were mom where touch would have been appropriate, I would kind of inner freeze, but not outer freeze necessarily. So, like I could kind of talk, but then I get like a little still in frozen. And then the energy would get weird and then she could feel it and then she'd Pull away. And then I'd kind of get more angsty. Angsty was a huge thing for me. So like this angsty, like you should like me. Do you like me? And then if you don't like me, I get like hooked on you in a sense. Man. I can't remember what it's from. Some thoughtful literary. Or maybe you will remember there was some book, there was a girl I chased in high school. I cannot remember the book. I feel like it was like one of those English tales. But there was this character Archer who was this really angsty guy who was kind of hooked on a woman. And I remember she was like, you're being such an archer. And it always stood with me. And then I repeated that over and over and over again where I would like kind of not be relaxed in the moments that would have actually created connection and attraction. And then I would feel them separate, you know, losing interest. And then I would like tighten up and kind of. I don't know. I honestly, I don't know what I was wanting other than them to say, I like you, you know, Even though at that point I wouldn't have been giving them anything to be attracted to in. In a lot of ways. So it, for me, it was just the discomfort around my physicality, being in my body, closeness, touch, emotional intimacy, all things that had roots in my family system and my relationship with my mom that I had to work through and had to do some work to come to terms with. Self loathing, self, you know, all that stuff was under there until I got a lot more comfortable with that and, you know, in a lot of ways eventually just learned to get out of my own way of like, oh, okay. You know, I think what I fell prey to a lot in this was kind of this rather unrealistic thing of. I call it the like elementary school notes. Like, the hope was someone would like tell me they liked me and then I would feel comfortable to like make the move or the kiss or whatever. But I did not have capacity to stay relaxed and come forward when it was more like bodily and about attunement and energy, like, because I just did not have practice or experience with that. So I was kind of like longing for certain words which in my mind would relax my nervous system and allow something to come through. And lo and behold, you know, in my family system, we never talked about anything. There was no emotional, just robots in the same house. So it's not at all a surprise to me this, you know, showed up in my pursuing of women.

Melanie Curtin: I want to Highlight what you just said, because I think it's really poignant. And I'm working with a client right now who said, yeah, my family was four individuals living in a house. It was very empty. And I just got this sense of it wasn't a cohesive, loving, intimate family unit. It was just people living in a house together. And that sense of emptiness or isolation, loneliness is very common. I would say a lot of our clients have experienced that as a child in one way or another, which can be extra confusing when your basic needs were met. So you were clothed, you were housed, you were taken to your soccer practice or whatever was technically being done. You were being. Being supported. But you weren't loved in a deep way. You weren't attuned to. There was no one slowing down with you to help you understand how you were feeling or what you were wanting or how to talk to that girl in your class or anything. It was just this blank space, which is also known as emotional neglect. I'm going to put a note in here. We've done an episode on emotional neglect. I know that can sound like a scary term, but if you think that might have been you, I do recommend that episode. And I'm also going to drop an episode that we did on freeze. So if you're resonating with any of what Jason's saying about that freeze state, when you get around a woman, then you probably want to listen to that. So I want to go into the archetypes now of the different folks that.

Jason Lange: We actually want to. One more thing that it feels important to speak, because I know we've worked with men who have had this experience, and this is something maybe I alluded to just there too, that the longer I went, the more it contributed to the stress of that closeness. Was as a virgin with no experience. The older I got, the more self conscious I got about that and the more terrified I was to let anyone know that, oh, yeah, I've never even kissed someone. I've definitely never played with someone sexually. I've definitely never had penetrated. Like, it was so locked up inside me. I was terrified of what a partner would think. And then the older I got, the more intense that got, which created more pressure and more fear about the thing finally happening or coming forward. You know, when I was young, that wasn't so much on my mind, in a sense, but as I went, that became a bigger deal. And I know this has been a source of some pain with men we know of. Like, yeah, what happens if I bring that forward? What story Is she going to make up about me? And I had gotten into the work enough to, you know, kind of move through this stuff myself, but I didn't really have community around it at the time. And that's one thing we've certainly done different of just having men even be able to talk about this in context and like, how do you bring that forward and what's it like? And she really wanted to name that because I know that's a unique type of shame and pressure for late bloomers and virgins like me that as we go. I mean, right. They made a whole movie kind of making fun of that in a sense that for men in particular, it means something about you if you haven't had sex and most of the meaning people ascribe to it. Is there something defective with you?

Melanie Curtin: That's a really good point. I think that's it. And I think there are certain unique points in the lived experience of being a man in our culture and the lived experience of being a woman. And I think that's such a great, great point about the way that it feels as a man to be especially sexually inexperienced and then to have that continue through, you know, your 20s or 30s or even 40s, it compounds. It's like it gets. It gets more scary. It gets. Each year that passes, it gets more terrifying. And I think that it's worth saying up front that transformation is always possible and breakthrough is always possible. Oops, sorry. Breakthrough is always possible. And we've seen pretty dramatic breakthroughs in our work and we'll get to some of that in. In our stories. But I think one of the most inspiring things to me is that it doesn't have take that long. And one thing I do want to say as a woman is that.

Jason Lange: I.

Melanie Curtin: Don'T care that much about a man's level of experience. I care about his presence in the moment right now. I care about how it feels to be with him right now, how much I feel his attention on me, how much I feel his presence, his depth of presence, his capacity right now. So it doesn't matter as much to me whether he's had a lot of experience as whether he's done the work to become present in his life now and present with me now. And I think I've spoken to a lot of women friends, actually. I think we might have even addressed this in a girl talk recently where I think there were three or four of us on the call, and we all basically agreed that we don't really care about level of experience and level of Experience, particularly when it comes to sex, does not correlate to being good in bed. Right. Just because a man has a lot of experience does not make him good in bed. Because a lot of what we're looking for is attunement and presence. And that is only possible if you're doing, if you're doing the work. So, yeah, just wanted to address that and say that I, I see that difference. There's a difference in our lived experiences. So there's different archetypes here when it comes to being a late bloomer. What does that mean? The first one that we're going to talk about is where a man is very successful, career wise, but not successful in sex and relationships. So we have a couple of examples of this. One is a man that was in his, I think, early 30s and had a lot of, yeah, career success, interesting profession, really liked what he did. And when we're saying the word successful, we're not. I don't just mean financially successful, I mean alignment. So it feels like I'm in a good career for me, I'm able to contribute and I make money. So it's not necessarily just one, one metric there. But he was really, really inexperienced when it came to women. And he was a good example of someone who had a background of emotional neglect and wasn't taught a lot of things and didn't have people to slow down. I'd say there's a certain amount of coldness in his house. Not that his parents were, you know, evil or doing something manipulative or bad, but there was just an absence, a lack of attunement and warmth and closeness and a love and that. And what was really interesting about him was that, you know, similar to what we've been saying about, you know, time and trajectory, like nothing had been happening for years and years and years. And then within a few months of working with us, I think it was less than six months, he met a really good partner for him. It's going really well. And it feels like there's a lot of that warmth and closeness and intimacy and love and grace and just, it's, it's not just like, oh, great, he got to have sex, but it's like this is a potential life partner for him. Not every story is going to be as dramatic as that, but can you share a little bit about what you witnessed in that transformation?

Jason Lange: Yeah. This was a man who really just came into his body and I think for the first time in his life too, particularly around these things, just felt some fucking support right A place to talk about it, feel like he wasn't weirdo or alone, and just know that he had people on his team to help him, you know, cross this, cross this kind of divide in his being. He just hadn't really found a way over, but with, you know, just a little bit of support, he walked himself right over that bridge, you know, and I think that's a, a thing I'll note, kind of like you were talking about. It's, it's never too late. And while we're certainly both of the mindset, growth never ends. Like wholeness is not a place you get to, it's a direction. But when you have the right system, growth can actually happen pretty fast, right? In any capacity. Whether that's weight loss, relational changing your. When you finally have the right feedback loop of oh, I'm getting the knowledge I need and I'm implementing it and there's a whole mechanism that gets fired up. Things can change pretty fast. And he was an example of, you know, a lot of the cards were set on the table, but we just need, he just needed a little piece to bring it all together, you know, to, to, to, to, to enact this thing. And he very much did. And it changed. And he feels a lot more relaxed in himself and he's creating a beautiful relationship now. And it, you know, I, I viscerally remember some moments with him though, it was just like coming into his body to feel and suddenly energy, you know, starts coursing through your body when you do that. And that is deeply tried or tied to embodiment attraction, polarity, all of that, you know, particularly as men like, oh, like there's fire in my belly now because it's easy for us to just, you know, carve a path through life, you know, he wasn't the only man like this. But, you know, we can throw ourselves into work, throw ourselves into our head and kind of stay up here and not ever come down. And once he had the courage to, and support around him to just, you know, fuck it, I'm coming down, coming down into my body, into what I want. I've been trying this alone for a long time. Man, did his life change fast.

Melanie Curtin: Oh, I really feel that I've been trying this alone for a long time. I just want to pause on that because there are so many men that we work with that just feel alone and have never had meaningful support and guidance and real dropped in vulnerable conversations or spaces with other men. And it's just so heartbreaking to me, that's such a Lonely place to be. And of course we're not gonna move forward in our lives when we feel that deeply alone. It's kind of a, it's a stopping point, you know, there's no way through it. We're social animals. We're meant to be in intimate relationships with others, not just surface level relationships with others. And it's too easy in our modern world to, to get a, get by with just those surface level relationships. And I felt a lot of compassion for that place of, you know, I could just feel as a woman, I could just feel that the number of men that I meet that are just in their head and I can't, I can't feel them in their bodies. And they, I can tell that they, they like me or they want to come to, towards me. And I'm like, I can't feel you. Like, I'm not, I'm not interested. And I can, I can sense that they, they're confused. They don't know why. It's like, well, what is wrong with me that you aren't interested? This is not a conscious conversation that I have out loud, but I can kind of get that sense. And it's, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, you need to do some work, you need to do some inner work you need to do. You need to get in touch with your, your body, you need to get in touch with that. Because otherwise I'm not, I'm not. It doesn't polarize me. You know, I'm not, I can't really feel you. I need to be able to feel you. And I think for a lot of men that's a confusing phrase. Like, I've never said that to a man when he's been like, emma, I want to ask you out. And I'm like, I can't feel you. Like, he's not going to know what that means. And that's part of why we do what we do, because it is kind of confusing. What the hell does that mean? You can't feel me? I'm right here. You know, what can't you feel? Why, you know, I don't understand. And we sort of take men through what that means and how to get into their bodies and all, and all of that. That's the, that we do. And the results are pretty drastic. And it's, and it's, it's both subtle and obvious at the same time. And I think that's one of the reasons why, you know, the actual outer appearance of a man is Far less important than the inner animation of that man. Who, who. What is the consciousness that is animating that man's body. That's what's actually attractive and polarizing. And a lot of men get stuck on the exterior. Like, if I just do this or I just own this, or I just, you know, if I do the trappings thing, then it'll work when it's really an inside job. So for this archetype, we wanted to go over a little bit of just the cost of these. And for this one, one of the costs is grief. The feeling of missing out. Like, I didn't get my sexy hot twenties. I didn't have, you know, when I was a teenager, I didn't make out in cars. I didn't have all of those fun, light hearted experiences with women. Because a lot of times, you know, as we, as we age, right, as we get into particularly like 30s, 40s and up, there's more of a. There feels like there are more stakes in relationships, right. It's not just like, oh, I'm 16 and we're making out on the beach at this summer bonfire. It's more like, oh, do you want kids? You know, what's your K like? You know, what, what are the practicalities of a life together? So can you share a little bit about that? Because I think you, you actually have.

Jason Lange: Yeah, this is a big one that I've seen both for, you know, late bloomers like me in the sense of lost our virginity late and sometimes for married guys who got married very young, Maybe just had one partner for 20 or 30 years and you know, part of it is. And you know, the. Some people might think this is shallow, but I actually don't think it is. You know, it certainly hasn't been for me. There's just the grief and pain of, oh yeah, I never got to have those like, like innocent explorations. And I, I don't mean innocent in that, you know, everybody was perfect, but innocent in the sense, you know, when you're young, you have a lot of Runway to try stuff and mess up and experiment and date around and have different experiences and discover. And there is a certain. Well, I can't actually say this because I didn't experience it, but I have a certain story about what it's like to explore early sexuality together with someone who's developmentally around that same thing. Like, oh, no, neither of us have tried this or done this. What would this be? Like, let's try this. You know, and that's something I didn't get you know, in high school and in college, which is also one of those ages where you're around a lot of people who are your age and in similar situations and aren't fully anchored into life. Right. And that does change when we get older. So it's not that it's impossible to have these experiences, but there's also, you know, I, I, I, I shared maybe on this podcast or somewhere once a piece of work I had to do with my wife a year or two ago around, oh, yeah, like, I don't really have the musculature for everything that happens in between kissing and penetrative sex because I didn't have, like, a domain of exploring, like, oh, I like you. We're in a partnership. I'm not ready for that yet. But we could do this. Oh, it's really hot. I want to go further, but I already, you know, and there's ways you can kind of create experiences with each other. I didn't have that. So I was used to. When I finally went, I went all the way and there's like, some experience I didn't have there. And, you know, we played with that in terms of creating some experiences for me, and it was like, unbelievably nourishing. I couldn't believe what a, like a, Holy crap. This is like doing medicine for my nervous system. It was. But a lot of guys I work with, they, they actually grieve and lament that space of, oh, yeah, they're, they're, it's not. Again, it's not that it's impossible to have these experiences older, but it's a different energy, right, Than like a summer love or I was on vacation or we had this summer job of a certain potency at that age that is harder to reclaim in certain ways later on that stays. Right. It's like we don't get to go back and have those experiences. And I'm super grateful for where I'm at now. And I can feel the grief of that, that it's like, that's part of this waking, embodied life experience I didn't get. Other people do have that. There's a lot of other things I get now that other people don't have, but it's real. And so just for guys out there, this is a big cost, I see to particularly around the sex and intimacy, late bloomers. And then this feeling of sometimes feeling like, well, I have to go back and excavate that now. And it's very different doing that in your 30s, 40s, even 50s, sometimes in terms of who's available and what they're available for and what those experiences are like.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I really feel that sense of, you know, like I never got to like make out on the couch while the parents were upstairs and only go so far because one of us or both of us didn't want to go all the way. And just what is, what is that like to like, you know, slow down and, and kind of just have the extended makeout or like, oh, getting to a certain base and, and that. Yeah, that just all of the, the summer love, like you said, like those.

Jason Lange: It's.

Melanie Curtin: We see it a lot in films and TVs and the coming of age type type situations where, you know, in our work I'd say that, you know, we often will see men make significant breakthroughs in this area just much later. They're just, they're just doing it later and there's a lot of celebration and then there's also the grief. It's something kind of coexist. They live alongside each other. I think what I want to impress upon listeners is that this is workable, this is changeable, this is transformational. You can, you can get there. You are not stuck. We've seen, we've seen it all, baby. And it, it's. Everything's possible. So that's what I would like to say about that one. The second archetype is this is an interesting one. This is one that we've seen a few times where a man will attract unavailable women. So it kind of looks like something's happening, but it's not really happening or it's not happening to the depth of intimacy that he's really wanting. A lot of times these men are moderately successful, career care wise, but not necessarily in alignment, meaning they don't necessarily like what they do or who they do it with. They don't necessarily click with their boss or their team. So there, there's there's kind of like an in between sense of, you know, I'm sort of dating a woman or I've attracted a woman, but she lives far away or she's got, you know, she's got kids and she's not really. And I. There's nothing wrong with having kids and you don't. Having kids doesn't make you emotionally unavailable. But what we've seen is that often we've had men that are dating someone and there's just, there are just things in the way, right? They're just obstacles or blocks to connection in one way or another. That, that. So that the the cost to this one is just not really having what you want. It's like. It's sort of, kind of almost maybe it. But it's not really what you want. It's not at the depth that you want. It's not the right fit for you in some way. And just there's this pain around.

Jason Lange: Ugh.

Melanie Curtin: Like I'm kind of. I'm kind of stuck, you know, so it looks like there's something happening, but I'm not really getting what I want. Can you share a little bit about that? For what we've seen from men there.

Jason Lange: Yeah, there's a couple. I mean, there's two somewhat different things that come to mind. One is kind of more the often nice guy friend zone situationship thing where I'm like, investing a lot of energy and often emotional connection into a partner that I want to be romantic, but it's just not romantic. And there can be this, like, getting stuck there for months and even years sometimes. These people that they keep. We. Some of us men, like, keep orbiting because it's almost gonna happen and then it doesn't happen. And then there's like a safety to it, in a sense, but it feels really painful and it's really stuck. And it's not actually creating experiences for, From. For. For. For these men that they can learn and relate from. The. The other one that I actually will throw in here too is kinda. I ended up with a partner that I know I don't really like. Right. That I just. I'm not really fired up for. Maybe I'm not fully attracted to. If I'm really honest, some part of me feels like I settled and then there becomes this like, really just sticky bind of well. And I really like this person. I care about them as a friend. We've invested so much time into each other, and yet what do I do? Like, I don't. I don't feel excited to be in a romantic relationship with them. So I. I kind of feel stuck. Like, I'm in a relationship, but it's not intimate, it's not passionate, it's not alive. But on the outside, people think, you know, oh, you know, he's married or he's had this partner for eight years or whatever that might be. So there, there's just, yeah, like, stuckness. Right. I think that's the big thing here of I don't know how to move towards something I want with that stuckness. You know, it's often two sides of the same coin. There's like sometimes a bit of a Not addiction, but a comfort with safety of like, oh, but I really. Some part of me knows this paradigm, and even though I'm not, like, happy, I don't know, it feels safer or less risky than the other choices. So I might just hang out here and then, yeah, 5, 10, 15 years can go by for some of these guys, whether they're not in a relationship or they got into one. But it's not really a passionate engagement in type in the sense they're feeling alive and stoked and getting the things they want to get out of an intimate partnership.

Melanie Curtin: I want to highlight this part because I think it's really important that we. We just recognize how hard it is to take risks without community. This is one of the hardest things to do when you're solo and making a big shift or change with. With no guidance and no community around you. I've seen repeatedly in our community and the men that we work with that as they start to get connected and as they start to feel what it is, supported, it's easier for them to make bigger shifts outside of their relationship. And some of the men that we work with, they're not sure whether they even want to stay married when they start working with us. They're. They're not sure. They don't. They're not sure. They're like, I'm. I don't know. And in doing the work, they get the clarity that they need, that sometimes they do stay and they get some help in for the couple. And sometimes they work, they work what's there. And sometimes they determine that this is not the right relationship. And I've just been really scared, really scared to leave. What do I do about the kids? What happens to the family system? There's big, big questions around that, but I would say that repeatedly. What we've seen, and maybe you can speak to this a little bit, is that it just feels so much better to take the risk and to take the action that is needed that is being called for, rather than staying in this limbo where nobody's really happy and including the kids. You know, if you're listening to this and you're new to the podcast and you've never listened to the episode, should we stay together for the kids? I strongly recommend that you listen to that there. It's. I'm, you know, the child of parents that didn't stay together, and I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I cannot imagine the two of them and me in a house. I just. That would have been not good for me. So, yeah, can you share a little bit about that? About, you know, what it takes to actually make these big shifts? Cause I think that's something that our culture is just so individualistic, and we just put so much attention on one person making a shift. But what I've seen is that that person needs to be surrounded by the right network in order to make big shifts.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, we're. We're played out in my life. And a lot of guys we work with is when we don't feel like we have a safe place to come back to, risk becomes extra risky and fearful. Right. Because the sense is there's nothing under me. There's no ground to catch me, there's nothing to fall back into. So if I take a risk and it doesn't work out, I have to sit alone in my pain. And the big shift, you know, we see in our program and in community and why I talk about men's groups and all this stuff, is it feels very different when we've taken the risk. And whether it worked out or not, we have a place to come back to and just be in connection. And in fact, the more we learn to then trust that connection, the less afraid of taking risks we are, because we're like, oh, well, I can always come back here and feel grounded and loved and supported. And that actually emboldens us over time. And I see that a lot with guys we work with and with nice guys in particular who never had a strong masculine presence in their life. You know, for me, it was like my. The. The. My body felt like, you can't see me, but, like, tight and close. I have to, like, calculate every little step because I need to be safe. And as I've gotten more supported in my life, it's like, no, I can. I could take some big swings now, and I have. And they have not all worked out. Let's just be clear about that. But I had community to kind of come back to, to catch me, to support me in all kinds of different ways, so then I could take those risks again. And, you know, this is probably one of the big mindset shifts that guys we work with go through, which I don't love this word, but I'll use it. For now. It's that in the end, failure is actually a lot less painful than not trying or being stuck, because that latter one, the. We feel very disempowered. It's like, I just. I have no power. But even if we take a chance and it didn't work out, there's Like a sense of movement. And, okay, well, I could try that again, or I could do this other thing. And we don't. You know, I talk about this on guys I end up doing calls with, call them the arrows in the masculine heart. Most men listening can probably identify these. Every man carries a few arrows in his heart of moments, oftentimes around intimacy in women, but sometimes around career or creative risk where there was an opportunity for us to go for something. But the fear won and that opportunity passed. So she left the elevator. Or I never had the chance to present that thing. Or, you know, who knows? And it leaves this, like, actual wound in the heart of what if? I'll never know. Could that have been an amazing Paris rendezvous with that woman? Right. Or life partner? Who knows? It's the not knowing that haunts us. We actually don't often remember in the same way the times, like, I kind of went for it and didn't work out. Like, you know, we have some of those stories, but they don't stick in the heart in the same way. And so this is that, you know, kind of Wayne Gretzky style, you. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take thing that starts to burden and weigh men down. And the shift we see is that as men build the resiliency and community to take risk and be okay if it doesn't work out. Because, yeah, it does hurt a little bit. Ultimately, the burden lifts, though, that. That's less weight to carry because it's. I'm fucking trying. I'm giving life my all. So if I. When I go to bed tonight, I don't have to wonder, should I have. Should I have asked her out? She gave me eyes like, no, I asked her out, and it wasn't aligned. Okay, ouch. But now I can move on, right? A part of me is not captured in that moment in time. And so this is a big thing that we do see really shifting guys of just taking more chances. And it's not always pretty, it's not always fun. But ultimately they feel better than being stuck because at least they're trying. They're actively engaged. And as I tell so many guys we work with, it might take 20 times, but there will be a time, particularly with the woman, you'll invite her, you'll ask her out, you'll whatever. And she'll just be a yes to you every step of the way because you're the. You two are the right fit in that moment, but you got to be willing to keep putting yourself out there. And that's what is much easier when you have community.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And I have a fun success story celebration from one of our men. We have a few men who are in the process of separating and getting divorced and, and with varying levels of experience. So some of these men got married young and they don't have that much dating experience. But one of our men has been really fearless in just asking women out that he feels the energy with, that he feels drawn to. And he was on vacation and he had the most wonderful fling. I mean, just really heart centered, really fun, really intimate, sexual. Just like, like you said, like a lot of yeses from her. And that is pretty new for him. That's, that's a new kind of risk taking. And so one of the things that I think has been really exciting to witness in, in a lot of the men we work with is, oh, this is actually easier than I thought that it would be. I thought it was gonna be a lot harder and scarier, but I just wasn't doing it. I wasn't taking the action, I wasn't taking the risk, I wasn't moving towards, I was just holding back, I was just passive. I was just kind of existing. I wasn't actually acting and enacting and moving towards. So that's something that I was really celebrating with him of just like, what a great experience for him. But also for the woman that he interacted and to have such a fun, intimate, passionate little fling for some people that's incredibly life giving and it sparks creativity, it sparks a lot of other things of just what's possible, you know, what's possible in relationship, especially if you've been in a marriage or some kind of partnership for decades that hasn't felt intimate or exciting or fun or passionate or even just like a lot of our guys are like, I just don't feel like she likes me. I don't feel wanted, I don't feel desired. I don't feel like she likes me. To have that experience of, here's this woman who really likes you and is, and it's, it's passionate and fun. It's just like, oh, what a breath of fresh air. This is possible for me and replicable. So I want to move on to the next archetype. We have two more, but I think we can go through them relatively quickly. The third one is men who do the inner work first and the outer work after. So sometimes this means, sometimes this means that they're relationally advanced, but not necessarily advanced in their career or finances, things like that. And the cost of that is feeling like a failure. Feeling a failure earlier in life, like, oh, I didn't, you know, start the company or climb up the ladder or, you know, do. Do things that leave me in a position where I have a, you know, a fat retirement account. So no compound. No compounding interest. Right. I didn't get my act together, so, so to speak, in this arena. But this person did a lot of personal growth work. They did a lot of inner work, got themselves sorted out. Like you said, growth is a process and never ends. But they are significantly more relationally advanced than some men who did do the outer work but haven't yet done the inner work. Can you talk a little bit about that contrast?

Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, what I'll. What this is kind of the inverse of is the cultural known of the midlife crisis, right? The guy buys a Porsche when he's 45 and suddenly leaves his wife and gets a younger woman. And what. What that crisis is on that side of things is, oh, what's going on inside me, right? I'm not gonna be alive forever. My body's changing. I'm aging. People in my life are starting to die. What am I doing? And how do I actually create love and intimacy with people and soothe these parts of me that, yeah, the fancy car is not gonna soothe, because I might go try that. And then a year from now, you know, I'm coming back to my wife or whatever that might be. But the inverse of that is the. The inner work first. And I very much count myself on this. And not necessarily out of choice, but just functionally, that's where I was at. Like, you know, it was hard to throw myself into a career when I didn't know who I was or what I wanted and was often in deep pain. And this is where, you know, we're going to therapy. We're doing growth work, we're doing medicine work. We're taking responsibility, we're reading books. We're like, like, well aware of. Oh, yeah, my parents were like this. So it caused me to be like this. And then at this age, I was like this. And I'm working through this. And this is part of my lineage and my karma, right? We have all that mapped out, and we're like, boom. Yeah. So by the time, you know, we're kind of middle age, we're like, oh, I know who I am. I know what I want. I know with a partner who has done the same, I can create great relationships. But it's the outer world that's a Lot less stable for me. Maybe I haven't fully found full employment in the way I want or be connected to my purpose. I might be struggling financially, I might be moving around a lot, trying to find my place in the world. And there's. That becomes the, the emphasis later on of, oh yeah, I can create a relationship, I can get present, I can tell you about my triggers and I don't know how I'm going to pay taxes next month. Right. Like, there's a different stress in the system there for this type of late bloomer and it can cause a little, it's not impossible, but a little relational stress because as you're getting older and you start to meet certain people, they might be more established in that sense and want to know, like, oh yeah, I want to know we can go take a vacation to the Alps or go out to nice dinners or whatever that experience might be, that sometimes then there can be a little bit of a gap there that can cause a little pain. The good news, I will say for guys who are more in this arena is it's actually not at all impossible to find a partner who's in a similar lifeboat, who's like, oh yeah, cool, I got that shit sorted. Let's do this. We're going to build together, right? So we're going to be building our nest egg, our foundations, all that stuff, stuff together. And you know, there can be a real power and synergy in that. But you know, the, the long and short of this is everybody's going to have to, well, you don't have to, but going to have an opportunity to confront the inner work, the growth, the wounding, the parts of you that keep getting stuck in the same places at some point in your life. It can happen earlier or later. One is not better than the other. They both have some pretty significant advantages. Right. I think another thing we see, I certainly count myself in this is inner work first, maybe relationship and marriage comes a little later. I don't have the stats on this, but I'd be very curious. I feel like I can make a pretty strong argument those later marriages probably much more likely to last because I know who I am. We build capacity, we have support versus, you know, out of the gate. I don't know who I am, I'm young, 20 years later. We're very different people. You know, there's some advantages to that as well. Same thing I, you know, another place I maybe see this show up as, as a later father myself is becoming a father later in life, which, like, wow, I'm way more capable, being present for my kids, taking care of myself, having stability in my life. And that has given us a lot of benefits to had. I tried, you know, when I was 23, but it comes with a cost. Right. I'm also going to have less years with my kids. That's, that's, you know, there's trade offs to all of these things, but that kind of late bloomer is. Yeah, you know, I've been doing the inner work work and now my edge is actually the outer work. It's to like take a stand for something, line up my career, pick a place to live, commit to some kind of relationship, whatever that might be. But I have the kind of inner grit now to do it. And self awareness is online. So I'm not going to have this huge, you know, middle life crisis. In a sense, my mind's an outer life crisis of like, I gotta like find a home and start building some equity so I can retire. Like, it's that kind of st stuff. It's just the other side of the same coin in a sense.

Melanie Curtin: I think that's something that I really want to leave listeners with is that there is no, none of these is good or better than the others. They're just different. So similar to different kinds of cuisine. None is better than the other. They're just different. And I think that's the thing is that we all have this view, like, oh God, I'm so behind. Look at all these things I haven't accomplished yet and I haven't done. And we look at other people and we're like, oh, they have it so together. And the truth is that we're all on our own journeys and you are where you are. And the more that you can get the right support and the right help and the right community structure in to help with whatever your version is, the better. And there's no, there's no good or bad or right or wrong. It's just these are just different. These are just some archetypes. The last one that we have on here is actually a growing issue and I was just reading a book that I will also drop in the show notes. It's called Of Boys and Men. Men, why the Modern Male is Struggling, why it matters and what to do about it. And this archetype is the, excuse me, the sort of failure to launch. So this man might be in a living situation he doesn't love. Perhaps he's living, you know, in a relative's basement. Maybe he's stuck in a job he doesn't like, doesn't know how to get out of it or get something better, maybe stuck in terms of love and sex and relationships, hasn't really had a lot of experience. Just a sort of generalized delay in maturation and maturity. And this is a growing issue not just in North America, but around the world. There's a whole term in Japan for young men, bachelors that don't really leave their apartment. They get food delivered, they have their video game console. And it's a growing trend that there's a lot of challenges for young men around sort of like, purposelessness or, like, what is the point? You know, kind of like. And, And. And part of what the book talks about, which I would be interested in, anyone that does read it, I think it's quite an important book, is that there. That sense of. There used to be social constructs around the role of a man, and a lot of those have been dismantled quite quickly within the last two generations. But we have not updated our sense of what masculinity is. And so we still have this outdated idea that. That men are supposed to be the breadwinners, but it's actually harder to get a job and keep a job that pays well. It's harder than ever around the world, not just in North America. So. And that's not the only issue that is part of the issue, but this just sort of sense of, you know, lack of motivation, lack of purpose, drift, drifting around, that kind of thing. And so can you. Yeah. Can you share a little bit about what you've witnessed in this. This arena and with clients that we've worked with or just that you've seen in your own life?

Jason Lange: Yeah. You know, this can happen at any age. It's definitely more of a crisis with younger, younger kids. And I think it was accentuated by the COVID pandemic. There were a lot of kids who, you know, had a gap of two or three years of not socializing in social environments. And you build some habits, and it can be hard to undo those. And so this is just. Yeah, you know, failure to launch in a sense of. I. I feel stuck. I. I don't have a girlfriend. I don't know how to start dating a girlfriend. I don't even have a job. So I don't feel like I'm making any money. And I don't really have a lot of confidence in myself. And I feel like since I'm not, like, making a lot of money, like, who would want to date me? And it can kind of just spiral into, you know, feeling Stuck at home, maybe even living with my parents. I mean, it's also just. This isn't all like an individual man's fault. Culturally, it's very different. Different, right. Cost of living is through the roof, right? When our parents were coming of age, you could buy a house off a single income family with someone who didn't necessarily have a collegiate degree. They just had a job, they worked for 30 or 40 years and you were able to build equity and, and that's all kind of gone by the wayside. And so if you're in a certain young generation, it's like, I don't even know how to get my foot in the door for a lot of these things. And this is a really painful place for guys where it's just, it's not even like, you know, our second archetype was like, there's kind of some movement, but it's not really satisfying. I'm not really getting what I want, but I'm like kind of in the world, you know, I have friends, I'm doing stuff. This is just often like nothing is working. I feel so stuck. And who even wants me? Like, what is my value to society? This is a question that hits a lot of men, but I think particularly these young men who, you know, there used to be paths that would kind of onboard men into careers or trades or different things. And a lot of that's just gone. I mean, it's just gone. You know, I think I saw something, it's something like at least 60, it might even be 80%. It might be from that book of bachelor's degrees. Now are women. Like the educational system is going women. A lot of the kind of entry level jobs for men are kind of disappearing. There is a, a, you know, I'm going to go nerdy here. But again, societally, structurally we're moving into AI and automation. So a lot of jobs that used to require repetition, manual labor, those are the things that are going away. And our culture has shifted a lot more towards service and relational jobs. Right. Things like nursing, even coaching, like, um, those are the jobs that are still around. I have to interact with a human being and my capacity to do that is part of what makes me good at the job. So that's happening. And then men from a young age, I've talked to ad nauseam about this. We're not taught how to do that, how to be relational, how to be in our bodies, how to connect, how to create intimacy, all that. So a lot of those jobs women tend to thrive more in because you do. You actually have to hold differences and learn how to deal with cranky people. And, you know, it takes a lot of capacity. A lot of us knit. Many men never have the opportunity to develop those skills. So we're. We're left, like, what do I do? I don't know how to make any progress anywhere. And that's where I think the particular breakdown of that is. Then when it's that combined with. And I have no access to any men to kind of guide me along the way of just saying, hey, let's try this, or let's try this, or literally come help me do this. You know, like, I think there's a. A deep craving in a lot of men to, like, get good at something, but they don't even know what it is. Like, we. We can't all be an Instagram influencer.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, you're making a lot of the points that are made in this book, and if this topic is interesting to you and you're listening, I strongly recommend it. The author, Richard Reeves, also has some TED Talks, so if you don't want to read a whole book, you can watch some of those TED talks. Of the interesting points that he makes is that he argues that biologically, we should actually be starting boys a year later than girls in school. That's just because of the way that brains develop. That should be a standard thing across. Across schooling. And he also talks about a little of what you're talking about, which is we talk about STEM or steam, and he talks about heal, H E A L. And I can't remember exactly what that acronym acronym is for, but it's basically the jobs that you're talking about that do require more relational skill and that we need to normalize those for men. I'll give you a very quick example. I had a ton of respect for an ex that I was with. He had been in the Marines for a few years. He got out, and when he got out of the Marines, he went and got a book about the hundred best jobs, and he looked at the top 10, and one of them was being a nurse. Because nursing is a very stable career and it's only gonna. Your pay increases over time. You can travel anywhere. You got a lot of choices as a nurse. So he trained and became an orthopedic surgical nurse within, I think, 20 months. He did one of those accelerated nursing programs. And I remember thinking at the time, that is so practical. You know, you went out and got a book. Like, I struggled with my career for maybe 20 years. This was like what should I do with my life? It's got to be perfect. It's got to be an expression of my soul. And he was like, what's like a practical job that will, you know, kind of fit me because he did like to help people. And he was also incredibly strong, which you need in orthopedics. So I think that that kind of thing of normalizing that nursing is a masculine career. We. We still. I think there's still a perception of certain careers as being masculine or feminine, and we need to update all of that. And, you know, that sense of. Of purpose you just said, who even wants me? What is my value to society? I think that's really at the core of this arch type is like, what am I doing and what is the point? And I really appreciate what you said, Jason, about one thing that we've seen is be helpful for this is getting around other men that can help support you, that can see your value beyond just what you do, but just who you are. Because you are valuable. You are a human being. You are valuable. You don't have to do anything to earn that value. You simply are. And that. That is lacking. You know, all of this stuff we talk about with respect to social isolation. There are so many men we've worked with, some of these men who. Their dad maybe isn't in the picture or isn't reliable. It wasn't. Wasn't a good dad in some way. So the only real contact they have is with their mom or maybe some friends. But there's a. There's a certain level of isolation to this archetype that I think they. This person must get around other characters, caring people, specifically men. You gotta get yourself into a men's groove or some place where you're gonna be around men that are caring and supportive, you know, and supportive in a. In a way of helping you to take risks, helping you to take action, helping you to get moving. Cause there's a certain type of. I've said this before, but I'll say it again. Where we've worked with a few men who. It feels like, you know, when you're starting a video game and your avatar is just standing there. You haven't directed them to do anything in the world yet. That's a little bit how this. They're just kind of standing there in their lives. We need to get some movement and some action, some energy into the system to get them moving. And we've seen transformation. I'm remembering a guy who. Yeah, he moved out of a living situation. He Was not. He was not enjoying another one. Started taking improv. He got a bicycle. He just started moving. He started making friends at work. Everything kind of opened up for him because he was able to get started. And there was never really that. That sense of action or. Yeah, there's just. There's a lot to do and explore in life, and we need that nudge, we need that push, we need that energy to get us started, and then you can find your way on the path. And like you said, Jason, some. Some paths are a dead end, and then you turn around and you try again, and that's okay. Not everything's going to work out, but you got to be in motion. You got to be in action.

Jason Lange: And in community. I mean, I think that's just the main thing. Like, some of that opportunity comes from connection. A lot of times, right as we start connecting with people, it's like, oh, hey, I need some help with this. And suddenly you're doing this thing. And, you know, I just. I really feel for guys like this because, you know, another way to put this, too, is, like you mentioned in the book, a lot of these guys just don't know, well, what the fuck am I supposed to be, right? I was raised during MeToo, and I've heard that male sexuality is dangerous and toxic. All I hear is of toxic, masculine. I don't feel, you know, I'm not as academically oriented as some women I know in my life. There's not really any good jobs around me. Like, I. I can see how dark this can go pretty fast. And again, in community with other men, you just. You're gonna more likely find a path forward or at the very least, not suffer alone, which, to me, made a huge difference. And at some capacity, you know, you start getting around men in these ways. Older men or wiser men or men who are just, you know, in different places in their lives, things start to shift. And, you know, any man out there who maybe considers themselves in this category, I would say every man has some capacity to make, protect, or teach, right? Like in. If you find a way to contribute in that way, you have a great life ahead of you. And sometimes you just have to be around people and even get some ideas about what's possible. And other men can do that. Other men can also just, you know, like, I've. Like, we've heard this so many times in our program of, you know, I was out, I saw her across the bar, and I just thought of you two behind me saying, like, fucking, go for it. And that little not even physically in the room, but just, hey, you got people on your team, team that want you to win. That's the thing that makes a huge difference to men. Right. I don't have the exact research. It might be in this book, but it was something that blew me away last year where they talked about, particularly for men, masculine presence. It doesn't even have to be super consistent. So it is. It is like a single. A single interjection of an older man who gives a shit and just asks and offers some guidance, even if it's like one time at 13 years old, can completely change the trajectory of a boy's life. You know, it's great if you have consistent caregivers or parents or fathers, but just like a little dose of healthy masculine, of, hey, I believe in you, man. You can do it. Try this or try that, can completely change that direction in men's groups, men's community, all the stuff we're involved in can give you an extremely high dose of that.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I feel like, as a woman, I really want to say we do need you. We really need you. We need you now more than we've ever needed you. We really need you. You're. You're not superfluous. You are needed. And you can be that man that Jason was just describing. I think that's one of the things about this, you know, learning where and how to contribute. You know, one of the things that can really make a difference is working with. With young people, with, you know, kids, with young adults that are, you know, you. You feel like you're behind, but they're. They're still in middle school. Remember how miserable middle school was? Like, just think all of those younger versions of yourself and maybe get involved in something around that because they need you. You know, we. We really need you as a culture. So, yeah, if that's interesting to you, then maybe explore some volunteer opportunities. Just anything that gets you in the world interacting. And I think that's such a cool aspiration, right, to be that man that Jason just described. Because, yeah, the research is pretty clear, and it's not just for boys, but also for girl girls, that if. If there was one adult who truly saw you before the age of 18, your life path is. Is. Is much brighter. I don't remember the exact statistics, but it's basically like it could be a teacher, it could be an aunt or an uncle, it could be a parent. But we're talking usually about kids that had some form of neglect. But if there was an adult who really saw you who you felt seen by. That is often enough to have you make it through and have you want to live thrive right Actually go for it. So all of this talk of mentorship and community building. If you are interested in our work you can get us at Evolutionary Men Apply. You can also get me@dearmen podcastmail.com and I will drop all of those resources that we just talked about in the chat. There were several podcast episodes and a book and is there anything that you want to include before we wrap?

Jason Lange: I just thought I've some of you guys that have worked with us listening know have gotten this transmission. This is just a personal belief, but it's borne out. In my experience, time is a little woo woo. But time's not linear. It's elastic. And when you get into the right community, the right relationship, slotted in in the right ways in your life, you can live as much in a couple years as as you did in decades. So Even if you're 60 years old and thinking it's too late, it is not too late. You can have the types of experiences that I guarantee when you're on your deathbed, you'll be like, yeah, I'm so glad I got to live that.

Melanie Curtin: Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.