Melanie Curtin and I had one of those conversations where we kept looking at each other going, "Oh, that's exactly it." We were mapping out the top three traits that separate the Nice Guys who stay stuck from the ones who actually start getting what they want in relationships, sex, and life, and these patterns became so clear we could practically draw them on a whiteboard.
The big three we covered: asking for what you want directly, reclaiming your sexual energy, and overcoming freeze. What ties all of this together is how much these patterns are rooted in shame and fear for a lot of men. We've worked with so many guys who literally didn't know they could ask for what they wanted, whether that's in the bedroom, at work, or with family. There's this wild capacity Nice Guys have to just tolerate things, settling in relationships or letting terrible boundaries slide because somewhere along the way we learned other people always come first.
I shared some personal stories, like having to ask Violet to slow down our cross-country move when I wasn't ready, and how that prevented massive resentment down the line. We also talked about the friend zone situation that almost never happens but did, where a guy in our program finally owned his attraction and the woman he'd been platonically connected with completely opened up to dating him. That directness changed everything.
The freeze piece is huge. It's not just about approaching women, though that's part of it. It's about taking action in life again, period. Grabbing the guitar, signing up for the thing, moving your body when you're stuck. What we've seen over and over is that having community, having other men and coaches to process with, is what makes it safe enough to actually move.
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Jason Lange: He got really clear about, hey, my sexuality is okay. I actually love that I'm a sexual being. I know what I want. And he started asking for it and leading in this relationship with his new partner. And it's going amazingly. Every time we talk to him, he's like, this ex is great. She loves it. She loves how direct I am. She loves how much I'm leading.
Melanie Curtin: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode with Jason Lange. He's actually happy to be here on.
Jason Lange: A cough drop and got some baby brain. But, yeah, in it to win it.
Melanie Curtin: You can tell that it's. It's winter time. We're like. We're, like, both, like, fighting off colds and still here. And for those that don't know, yeah, Jason has a newborn at home, so not a lot of sleep happening, but lots of love and oxytocin, so that's good. Yeah, we are. This is a fun episode. We're excited about this episode. We're starting to, you know, move towards the end of the year. I think that by the. When this episode drops, I think it will be right around the solstice, right around the winter solstice, the longest night of the year, the shortest day of the year. And we were sort of thinking about, you know, in the seasons of our lives, what that symbolizes and all of the men that we've worked with who kind of come in at more of a dark night of the soul point of nothing's working. You know, I'm repeating the same patterns. I'm discouraged. I feel like I've tried a lot of things, you know, and the transformation that we've witnessed, and we wanted to highlight some of those transformations and the top three things that we've seen particularly nice guys do to get what they want and the ways that they've gotten what they want. So if you feel like you're in this category, I'm very excited for you to listen. And I think no matter what, it's going to be inspirational. And we're also going to. Yeah, we're going to have a little fun. So when we were brainstorming about this, there were sort of different ways to think about, you know, ways nice guys get what they want. There's sort of, like, what they do to get what they want, and then there's celebrating the things that they've gotten that they've wanted. So we're going to sort of talk about both of those, and we're also going to reference our program, Pillars of Presence, which I just wanted to mention up front, which is our transformational flagship program for men. And there are essentially three things that men learn in that program. One is to lead and communicate, how to lead and how to communicate. The second is how to get embodied, Getting embodied, and how to get embodied. And the third is getting connected to other men, men of depth and substance, other safe men of depth and substance. That's going to come up in the episode. So I wanted to name that up front. So the first way that we've seen nice guys get what they want is to ask for what they want. This is a. This is a big. This is a big topic. I'd love to hear just briefly from you, Jason, about what. What that has meant to you personally and what you've seen in our clients.
Melanie Curtin: And a lot of what we're going to be talking about intersects and intertwines. And I, I'm. We're going to tell some success stories now. And one of the things that I have found consistent in our work is that as men become connected to a healthy community and as they feel that support from that community, a lot more becomes possible. And as they are celebrated in asking for what they want, they start to do it more. Because in our community, what we emphasize repeatedly is it's not about the outcome. The win is that you asked. That's the win. The win is not whether the person said yes. That's separate. The win is, I did it. I asked, I advocated for myself, I spoke up, I used my voice. That's the win. And that's what we emphasize. And we've seen a lot of shifts and growth and change and transformation in men because they finally feel like there's someone at my back, someone's got me. I'm held by a community. I'm seen. I'm celebrated for my effort, even if it doesn't. It doesn't lead to the outcome that I wanted. So one of the cool success stories that we've had is we had a guy who had been working, I Think he had been working at his job for 10 years and had never had a vacation. And while working with us, he asked for the first time ever, he said, I want 10 days off. He gave them the dates and guess what happened? They said yes. They said yes. He went on vacation, had a magnificent time. I mean, tremendous. He was glowing when he got back. And consider what that opens up for that man. Like, holy shit, what else in my life can I have if I just ask? That's not always going to happen every single time. But this was absolutely transformational. And we actually had another similar situation with a man who was very established in his career. I think he was in his 50s or 60s at the time. And when he would go on vacation, his work would schedule him back to back on the week, the two weeks after he got back. So he noticed again, over the course of, you know, 10 to 20 years, a long time at his job, he would go on vacation, come back feeling great and then feel terrible because he was just back to back to back to back to back for two weeks because there was pent up demand for what he did. So upon you know, doing the things in the course and becoming more aware of his body and his exhaustion levels and all of this, he started to see this pattern. And so he went to his work and he said, I would like this to change. I would like you to not schedule this many clients for me in the two weeks I get back from vacation. And here's why. And they said yes. They said, no problem, that makes sense. And then they stopped doing it and it totally changed his life because then he got back from vacation feeling rested and he got to continue feeling rested instead of feeling exhausted. And all of this interacts, right? The part about becoming embodied, right? When he wasn't really aware of his body as much, he was just powering through or just taking what was there. I think that's really the pattern shift here is asking for what you want isn't just taking what's there, right? It's actually being willing to shift what's there to ask for something to be different for your needs to be met, right? It's about prioritizing your needs. And again, I think as men join a community where they feel safe and supported and seen, there's a lot more momentum there, there's a lot more possible. And again, they're celebrated. Whether the person says yes or no, whether work says yes or no, whether the woman says yes or no, they know that when they come to the call, they are going to be Celebrated for having done it. That's the win. Another, I think, very cool example of this is we had a guy who came in, he was. We often have men that are in the process of getting divorced or trying to decide whether they're getting divorced or their woman has asked them for a divorce. And they're. They're just. They're in that space. This man was in that situation and he. His divorce went through as he was going through the program, and he had. I think he was. Yeah, he was in his 30s, and he had never asked a woman for her number. He'd always met women organically. And we've also worked with a lot of clients who've been married for a long time or have been in long term relationships. And so they've not really actually done that much dating, so they're not really sure how it works. Anyway, long story short, after his divorce went through, he felt ready to date. He went out, he went to an event where there were people milling around after, and he asked a woman for her number for the first time in his life. And guess what? She said yes. And they went to lunch the next day. And it, you know, I don't think they ended up actually becoming a couple. But he was elated when he came to that call. He was so happy that he'd actually done it, that he'd actually asked. And yes, it was great that she said yes, but for him, it was more like, holy shit, I can do this. This is possible for me. And I just want to give another example of when a woman didn't say yes, but he was still happy he did it. We had a client in his 20s who very similarly had never asked anyone really out ever, because it was just. He would just go into freeze. And it was way too much for his nervous system, and it was just not possible. And through our work together, he felt more empowered and he was witnessing other men doing it, which is another advantage of community, because you're. You're seeing other guys take emotional risks and get into the game and you're like, all right, if they can do it, I can do it too, and I'm gonna be held after no matter what. And so he went to a store and he thought that the clerk was really cute, left the store, went back into the store, and basically said, I think you're really cute, and I would regret it if I didn't say something. Can I have your number? And she said, you can't have my number, but you made my day. Right? So there's something really sweet. Also, he was kind of like. It was really hard. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done. I'm glad that I did it. I now know that I didn't D. Right. I can do things like this and not die, which is a real thing, because our nervous system is like, you will die. You are risking humiliation if you do this. And it was like, he got to see her brighten up. Like, oh, that's really flattering. Right? It's like, thank you. Thank you. I'm. I'm not a yes to that, but I'm. I really appreciate that you asked, and it kind of lit me up. So those are some examples I don't know if you have more of. Yeah, Just the asking.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I think the. The main thing I want to highlight here is this directly asking for what you want is a powerful antidote to both regret and resentment. So regret on our side, in terms of the ways we'll often beat ourselves up as nice guys, not having, like, gone towards something we wanted or asking for it. This is how you make sure, you know, that doesn't happen. Where, you know, the win we see with our guys over and over is. It's not that they even always get what they want. It's just that they feel a lot better and more empowered having even asked. There's just like, there's more freedom in their nervous system. It's like, okay, well, now I don't have to, like, hold that. What if in my mental space, you know, ruminating around that and. You know, my example of this I think I've talked about before is the first epic date I went out on with Violet was pretty tumultuous, and things were kind of ending, and she kind of wanted to go home or. And then it was too late, and then she was going to sleep on my couch, and I was pretty clear, like, just the energy does not feel like I want to have sexual relations tonight, so to speak, but I wanted to be close. And so there was like, hey, here's what I'm wanting. I'm wanting you to spend the night in my bed. I don't want us to be physically intimate. I just want to be close. And she was a total yes to that, and it felt great. Brought us both closer together. And then for the other side, you know, I can even think of earlier this year, we, you know, we had a big move across country and got a house and happened a little faster than I was expecting. And actually through my men's group, got pretty clear on Some things. And I had to go home and, you know, very clearly ask for what I wanted, which is, I'm not ready to move yet. Like, I need another three months to kind of tidy up life here for me to be able to make that transition and not feel resentful to you to anything. Like, I want to be, like, stoked about when we arrive. And it was a super hard ask because it had big financial consequences for us, but she got it and she said yes. And in the end, she was grateful for it because it turned out to be the right move for our family to do it at that pace. And. But that prevented me from feeling resentment, right, of just, oh, this is what has to be now because of this. And it was like, no, here's what I want. Here's what I'm clear about. I'm going to ask for it.
Melanie Curtin: I think that's also such a beautiful example, Jason, of the ways that you have prioritized building and sustaining community in your life. The fact that you have been in a men's group for now, I think at least a decade.
Jason Lange: But far more.
Melanie Curtin: Than that, a long, long time. And again, I. I just want to highlight that. That a lot of the risks that I have seen our men be able to take have been because they finally have a group of trustable men at their back, and they have men and. And me, right? A trustable woman to run things by and to practice things with and to do a role play and just to gain clarity, like you said, you gained clarity about what you needed, and then you were able to go home and ask for it. And I think a lot of the men in relationships that we work with, they don't have anyone to bounce things off of. They don't have anyone to drop in and really say, here's what's going on in my relationship. And I'm not really sure what to do about it. And to just have that space to workshop and get clear and then. And then know what the hell they want to ask for, Right? I have another example of this, a success story of one of our clients who is married. And he, you know, through our work became. It became obvious that it was like, yeah, what's needed is that you and your wife need to get in to see someone together, right? You two need. You need a therapist sometimes. We'll recommend PACT therapy, Pact, which is based on Stan Tatkin's work for anyone that's. That's interested in that might do an episode on it. But he was able to ask her and she said yes. Right. And again, back to the things that we do in the course. One of the things around learning how to lead and communicate is how to make that ask in a heart centered way. Right. And not an ultimatum, but in a, in a heart centered way. And being clear about this is why. And I think that's another good example of your personal example of here's why, here's what I'm needing, here's what's behind this. It's not just this is going to be inconvenient for us, but it's like, here's what I would need in order to move and be excited about it. Instead of moving, feeling resentful, it's happening too fast. I feel out of control. I'm not really present. In the same way, here's what I would need in order to be present. And to me that is deeply trustable. And in your first story, also about, you know, you advocating like, I want you to stay the night, I want you to stay in my bed. I don't want us to get sexual, but I want to hold you. To me, that's really trustable. That feels like, wow, if a man said that to me, I would think this is a keeper, right? This is a guy to be with because he knows what he wants. And he's also attuning to me. It's not only about him, but it's about him and us. And I think there's something really, really trustable about that. Okay, the second one we have on the list is that one of the things that we've seen men do is to build up their energy. So if you have yet to listen to our episode on heart energy and cock energy, I will do a very, very brief breakdown, which is a lot of the guys that we see, there's kind of a matrix, right? There's like heart energy and cock energy. And what we want to see is them to be balanced. And what we often see is an imbalance. When you have lots of heart energy, maybe you get friend Z have, you can connect, but there's not a lot of sexual heat. There's not a lot of sexual fire going on. And so usually you, you'll get first dates, but not second dates. You get friend zoned a lot. You know, there's, your relationship is depolarized. There's not a lot of, of that. And then if you have a lot of energy and not a lot of heart energy, often you don't have any trouble pulling in women. You can, you can have relationships, but they don't tend to last very long or they don't tend to be very emotionally intimate or deep. Often we'll see these guys, this is, this is more us avoidant attachment lives. And so we've had several clients come in on this side saying, I do want a romantic, deep, intimate relationship. And it, it's not working, right? It's not working. I'm not attracting either the right types of women or I keep basically messing it up. And I'm not really sure why I'm self sabotaging that kind of thing. So either way, right? Heart energy or energy. One of the things that we've often seen is that particularly for nice guys, which is what this episode is about, that building up their energy has led to a ton of success because actually their heart energy was already really well developed. They didn't need to develop that side that wasn't missing. It was the cock energy. And so I have a really fun, really fun story here which is, you know, one of our guys came in, built up his cock energy more and more and went to an in person dating event. This was someone who had a pretty traumatic relationship before this, which is another pattern that we've seen, right? Nice guys that. Particularly nice guys that have been with women with borderline personality disorder. And that was, that was his background. And so he went to a live dating event and met a couple of women and he was bringing more, he was bringing more of the energy, right? More of the, like, I'm interested, I'm holding eye contact, I'm willing to be in my attraction. I'm, you know, I'm holding presence in this new way that wasn't true before, which as we've talked about on other, other episodes, that does a lot of the work for you, right? It wasn't that he was saying something specific. It was like his way of being was different. And long story short, he got several, several women were interested in him and then he was thinking about who he was going to reach out to. And there was one woman who he was pretty intimidated by, right? I think in the past, if he hadn't been a part of our community and hadn't had that support on his back, I think he probably wouldn't have messaged her. I think he would've said, ah, she's kind of out of my league. I don't think it's gonna work, you know? And because he was part of the community, it was like, well, do you want to, would you want to see her? That's the motivation. Not, do you think she'll want to see you. Right, but what do you want? And he didn't. He messaged her. And long story short, they had an amazing date. He was able, again, able to bring that energy, able to bring that fire, able to lead in that way. They had this amazing makeout, and now they've been dating, and they're pretty serious. You know, they're pretty serious. And it's a healthy relationship. So it's not the same kind of borderline relationship, which is a whole other kind of win. And that's part of. I think that there's. There's some kind of tie in here of when you build up your fire, when you build up your. Your source of power, when you are able to lead and you are able to go after what you want, you actually are more likely to attract a reciprocal partner, meaning not someone who's going to be domineering or domina. Whereas when you are passive and you're leaning back and you're not in your power, you're actually more likely to attract a dominating, domineering partner, which we also have episodes on if. If you're interested in that. But that was a really fun and exciting, exciting one. And, yeah, they actually became a success story for that live dating event. So that was also fun. They got featured, featured on their feed. Do you want to do the other. One of the other success stories?
Melanie Curtin: One and two when he came to us. He had a lot of, a lot of sexual shame, a religious trauma shame, which we have another episode about. In case you're new to the podcast, we have lots of episodes about lots of these, these topics if you want to go in depth into them. But yeah, he had a religious background and a lot of, lot of confusion, a lot of complication like complicated emotions. And through the course of our work together, he gained a lot more clarity, a lot more self acceptance, a lot of that. And he had this pattern of having super crushes. We've talked about this on the podcast as well. And then his particular pattern was having crushes on women online, right on in social media. And they would often be in different cities. So there was a part of him that perhaps didn't feel completely safe to get into a sexual relationship with a woman. And the way that was showing up in his system was that he, it was safe, quote, unquote safe, right. To have a crush on this person in another state, this person in another country. And he would get kind of, I don't know if I'd say obsessed. What's one level down from obsessed? Passionate about these connections and pour a lot of energy into them. And sometimes he would message back and forth with these women, et cetera. And through the course of the work and getting more clear on what he actually wanted and building up that sense of power, that sense of clarity, he was able to actually say you know, to life, basically. No, I want someone in my area. I want someone I can actually be with. And lo and behold, a woman showed up and he is now in the most connected, the most spiritually advanced, the most emotionally intimate relationship of his life. And it's been, I think, over two years, a year or two years, you know, a long time of just like, wow, I didn't, I didn't even really know this was possible. This is to it. This is much, much deeper than my marriage of 20 years, you know, with the woman that I have children with who's we're successfully co parenting. But the level of depth and intimacy that's available now is absolutely beyond what he could have imagined. And that is partly, you know, due to his willingness to get vulnerable. And I think that's true of all of, all of these. I think one of the overarching things that we don't have as an actual number is just the willingness to become, to get vulnerable. And when I say get vulnerable, I mean even just joining the program, right, Even just reaching out, the willingness to, to engage is, is kind of vulnerable. It's like, yep, I, I need some help here. This isn't working and I, I need to do something else. I need to try something. And it's, it's pretty incredible to me how much vulnerability, meaning the ability to step forward, how much that can shift. It can just shift tremendously whether you're in a relationship or not. There's something about the willingness, the willingness. There's something about willingness, just the willingness to be open, the willingness to try, the willingness to step up, the us to step in. There's something about that that just alchemizes things around us and yeah. Sets us up for success.
Jason Lange: Yeah, it's such a big one. And you know, it just reminds me of one more story here, which this is kind of a legendary story in our community because it's, it's the thing that almost never happens. Happened. And so it was a man we started working with who had transitioned out of a marriage and was kind of in one of these almost super crushy friend zone things with a woman who he was kind of interested in, but they were kind of just friends. She was dating other people, but they were heavily emotionally connected. And it was the place we've, you know, a lot of nice guys get stuck in. Like she, she, she likes me for emotional support, but she's not attracted to me. And so we're kind of like stuck in this perpetual friend zone. And I think he had maybe even Asked her out kinda sorta early on, but they were, they were doing this for a while and he really started to work with us and get clear about what he wanted, and he really just owned it. He came towards her in a clear and direct way, said, you know, I'm interested you, and not in just a platonic way, I'm attracted to you, I want to date you. And she was totally into it, right? She. She totally swung around in that. There was just a level of that like directness and really owning, you know, in some sense, his energy that she was. She wanted from him and was missing before. But as he brought that online, she totally opened up to changing the nature of their relationship. And they've been dating now for quite some time and it's been quite successful. So, you know, that isn't always the case. And you know, part of me was like, that never happens, but it happens. And this was a great example of it, of a man who built up his energy and then very directly asked for what he wanted. And partly he was able to do all that because he was in community, in a program like ours, tying it, you know, a lot of it all together.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I love that you call that legendary. It's so real. And I have a similar one of a man who came to us in relationship who actually repolarized his relationship. So it was pretty depolarized and there were a bunch of issues that were happening because of that. He felt really disempowered, disappointed. I think she was consensually seeing other men and it was just not what he wanted. And it wasn't even necessarily about her seeing other men. It was just, I want that connection with you too. Right? I want, I want that. And he wasn't really owning what he wanted before working with us. And in the course of our work together, I would say over several months, this wasn't an overnight situation, but he just, he just owned his power more. He just claimed his energy more. He just shared what he wanted more. He was more direct. He was more. Yeah, he was just in his power more. And it worked. It repolarized the relationship. They. They have a different dynamic now. And he, I think, is also one of those men who. It's interesting. One of the things I really like watching is the. The physiological changes, right, in men. Like I. I watch them, you know, their spines become straighter, their chests become more open, their breath becomes deeper, their eyes become more open. There's just. There's such a transformation around. I am a man who can speak up for what I want. And like I said, it's not that I always get it, but there's dignity around asking and advocating and being clear and being direct and owning what you want. There's. There's such power in that. And that is inherently attractive. Right? That's attractive. And that word claiming came up for me in your last story. Right. He claimed her in a way that he never had before, and so she got to feel what that was like. Oh, that's what it feels like to be claimed by you. Yes. Now I'm. Now I'm more interested right now. I'm like, oh, now I see you in a different way because I can feel your power. When I can't feel you in your power, it's like, there's just not. It's. There's nothing for me to orient to, really. Once I can feel you in your power, I'm like, ooh, okay, like, now. And I think that's part of what happened in that repolarizing relationship is his spine got straighter. He was, you know, asking for what he wanted. He was showing up differently. And then his partner was like, ooh, actually, that's pretty interesting. Like, now I'm. Now I'm into it. And it's not manipulative because it's genuine. It's not. I'm putting on an act or I'm trying to do a thing. It's. I am genuinely showing up this way, and this is what I actually want. I'm just sharing it directly. I'm just actually doing the thing. And I'm supported. I'm supported. I've got a community behind me. I'm not alone. I'm not going to be crushed or defeated if I get a no, because I know that I have people that have my back.
Jason Lange: I think that that probably takes us right in here to a big one, which is this idea of overcoming freeze. And, you know, it was interesting. We had been talking about this, and there's a very literal thing we're talking about here, which often has to do with approach and men. Like, in the moment, there's someone I'm attracted to, and I have to move my body over there to say hi to her or get certain words through my mouth, even if I'm on a date. And it's like, I want to kiss her, but I don't know. A lot of men we work with freeze, right? They just kind of don't move in those situations. And this is something we work with pretty tangibly in the program. But, you know, I Was also thinking the deeper layer to this of overcoming freeze also just means taking action in our lives. And we've seen this at a bigger level with a lot of guys we've worked with who just start doing more, taking more risks, taking more chances, going out to events, signing up for the thing, grabbing the guitar they've always wanted to play. There's like movement just starts to happen again with a lot of these guys in this, this frozen, kind of locked in, often fearful place that a lot of our guys come in, come in around, starts to thaw out and they just, they just start taking more action, right? Trying more things, moving more. And one of the biggest reasons for that certainly are some of the nervous system tools. We work with men around what it just means to breathe and get into your body and. Etc, but it's also just the safety that comes from community. Both like you and I as their coaches as safe spaces to kind of talk to them before or after these types of things and then in particular with the connections they build with other men. Right? This is one of the big things I've seen in all the work I've done is what happens when, right, we, we've talked about this before of kind of the, the unique thing about trauma is there's, there's what happens to you and then there's what happens after. And the wild thing is, right, what might be traumatic to one person may not be traumatic to another person. Like the exact same circumstance, sometimes even the same event. And the big delineator in that oftentimes is the what happens after. And what happens after almost always has to do with community and connection. Do I have community and connection and safety available for me to kind of talk me through or process this? And a lot of our guys, whether it's with us or whether the relationships they build with each other, suddenly knowing there's somewhere, as I say, to kind of go with their feelings means, oh yeah, I can go out and have this date and if it doesn't go well, like, it's okay because I got my buddy and we're going to debrief it. And honestly, sometimes it's even kind of funny to talk about how flat my date was or how I totally did this wrong, but I'm like still getting connection with another friend and it keeps me from, you know, freezing up more in life or we've had many, many men on our calls, right, Talk about this thing. As you know, I was out there in the world and I just imagined Mel and Jason and the guys, you Know, like, this extra voice in the head that helps them get past freeze. Like, just walk over there, just say hi. Like, just hit the ball over the net. That's all you got to do. And it absolutely transforms things for. For a lot of men. And, you know, it has, again, these things all swirl together. But overcoming that freeze makes it a lot easier to ask for what you want, makes it a lot easier to express your sexual energy and attraction and desire for a partner as well.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I'm thinking about one of our guys that, you know, when he came in, he'd had, like, a pseudo relationship where, again, blurry boundaries, not really sure what we're doing. He went down to another city to see her, and she was kind of cold and withdrawn for a while. She was. She ran really hot and cold. And he never felt he. It, I think, honestly never even occurred to him to actually have a direct conversation about, how are you feeling about this connection? What's going on for you? You know, like, so many of the men that we worked with, I think they've never gotten that training on how to lead and communicate. Right. The first thing that we talked about, how to lead and communicate, and so it was just really vague and confusing and didn't feel great. But he. He had really liked her, and this was a big loss. And that was one of the reasons that he joined the program was, I don't want to keep doing this. Right. This just. Something about this doesn't feel right. I feel like I need more. I need more to be able to get what I really want. And, you know, one of the things that we talked about explicitly in the program, which we do talk about all the time, is this concept of overcoming freeze. And he was one of those guys who, again, it was really hard for him to actually be direct, like to go up and say, hey, I'm interested in you. Like, I'd love to get to know you better. And I'm happy to report that he had a major success pretty recently where he was able to actually do the thing, meaning ask a woman out in real life, in person. And this was a long time coming. I mean, his. His. His body, mind, before this point would go into freeze, he would want to be able to say something. He would feel the desire, and just his body was on lockdown. Right. There was a way that his system didn't feel safe. And again, the kinds of things that we do in the program and the support and all of it, all of the transformation added up to a point where he was able to go for it and say, like, yeah, I'd love to take you out sometime. And guess what? She said yes. And he was also more embodied. Right. All. All of the embodiment work had him prepared and ready to take that risk, essentially, to take the risk. And they've been out a couple of times, and it's gone really well. And this is a completely new experience. Right. He's leading it. It's not vague and gray. And maybe, you know, I met her and she's the one who approached me, and we don't really know what we're doing. It's like, yeah, I'm interested in. Spoke up. I said something. I, you know, we're going on dates. There's a new kind of momentum, a new kind of energy there that is totally transformational. And what's great about it is now that he's had that experience, it's like, this is what it feels like in your nervous system to do this. Right. It's like there's a teaching, there's a learning, there's a growing. There's a new neural net around that experience that is. This is what leading feels like. This is what leading feels like. And that's important because leading doesn't end once you're in a relationship.
Jason Lange: Right.
Melanie Curtin: I think that's something that. One of. One of the other success stories that I was thinking about here was one of our guys who. Who. Yeah. Who was married. Who is married. Who was married. Married, but sort of separated in like a. Yeah, again, kind of vague. We don't really know what we're doing. You know, divorce has a bunch of consequences for the kids, that type of thing. And I think there's a way that he was in Freeze about that whole situation. Like, I don't really know what to do about it. I don't really know how to talk about it. I don't even really know what I want. And through the course of the program and getting. Getting embodied, having community, having safe and trusted people to talk about it with, he was able to essentially construct a really. A much better situation for himself, even while cohabitating with his. I want to say, ex wife. Because really, they're not. They're not really. They're technically still married, but that's not the energy that's happening there. And, man, I just. I was blown away by the ways that he moved out of Freeze, meaning, you know, setting certain boundaries. Here's how I want it to work with the kids and just taking more. Yeah. More of a leading role and. And being. Being okay. With that, right? Like, it's okay for me to lead. It's okay for me to ask for what I want. It's okay for me to make some shifts. It's okay for me to, you know, advocate. And man, he is thriving. I mean, he is really thriving. And I think a good example of a leader in his community around a lot of these topics, especially talking to young men, youth, youth and young men. And I think that's something that is, I find deeply inspiring is how many of our clients and how many of our graduates are out there embodying the healthy masculine and just becoming agents of change in their communities kind of effortlessly. Like, this is what it means to have your heart and your power online at the same time. You can lead from your heart with your power. Then that's really what the world needs, I think, is people that are leading with heart and, and their, Their power, their advocacy, their, you know, their dignity is online and they're bringing heart. It's like, yeah, it's like Gandalf or something. So as we wrap here, is there anything else that you would like to add before we wrap? Curious are your thoughts on that section?
Jason Lange: You know, again, these things are all synergistic, so they, they work together. You know, you can think of them more as. It's like. It's like a pond and we're just sticking the. Sticking the measuring stick into different parts, but they all overlap. Right. These aren't like discrete things. And so as we start to get movement in one, it often this is the accelerator we see. It helps move the things in others. And for nice guys in particular, again, it's. It is an accelerator in the sense that as you take more actions, as you ask for what you want, as you're clear with your desires, and as you freeze less, your life's going to change. Right? That. That's the big thing. And that is much easier to deal with when we're in community. Right? Because life doesn't always change the ways we want. We don't always get what we want. But when we have somewhere to land, we're much. It's much easier to do it, to take those risks, to take those chances, to be straightforward and to be clear so you don't have to get stuck in the, you know, kind of purgatory that I would say a lot of nice guys do, where it's kind of like this stuff is happening to me. I don't feel like I have much control and I'm overwhelmed and maybe I'm actually also just Frustrated and angry because I'm like, this just isn't working for me and I'm not getting what I want. And what we've talked about here, our program as well, like, these are paths towards getting what you want.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thank you for speaking to that. And I think that's one of the things that is the most powerful is seeing all of the synergies and the ways that the community does interact and all of the different ways that, that men support each other. And I, I can't tell you how many times a new client will come in and I will immediately link them with an alumni. I'm like, you know what, your story sounds familiar. Talk to this person. And they come back and they're like, holy shit, I'm, I feel different, right? It's like, this is possible for me. It's possible for me to make it through this. I'm thinking about, you know, men that have children and are going through a divorce and they're like, are my kids going to be okay? Is it going to be okay? What is this going to look like? Is it going to, you know, is my, am I going to be lonely forever? What is this going to be like? And to talk to a man who was in a very similar position with kids right around the same age who says, my life is way better now, I feel much more clear. I feel like I'm, you know, we're co parenting just fine. The kids get to see a much more enlivened version of me. You know, I'm having success in dating because I'm showing up way differently than I did in the past. To hear that from someone, when someone has been where you were and is now in a different place, that is, that is impactful. So I think there's also a virtuous cycle around how long we've been doing it and who we can connect men to now and kind of the connective tissue of the community. I think that's, that's something that, that is, that is unique and powerful about joining a community versus just doing one on one work. And really there's different, you know, different things are needed in different seasons of our life. If this was compelling to you and you are interested in our work, you can always go to evolutionary men slash apply. If you're interested in the Pillars course. And if you ever want to get me or you have any feedback for us, you can go to dearmen podcastmail.com I read all the emails and happy solstice. Happy solstice. The days are going to get longer from here. More light is coming.
