What if the very thing you think makes you weak as a man is actually pointing you toward your greatest strength? I had a great conversation with Melanie Curtin about something I see come up constantly with the men I work with: the difference between neediness and having needs. And honestly, this distinction has been huge in my own life and marriage.
We dug into what neediness actually looks like. There's this dysregulated quality to it, this urgency where I won't be okay unless something outside of me shifts. It often comes with indirect communication, hints and covert contracts instead of clear asks. And what I've noticed working with men is that neediness frequently comes from younger parts of ourselves, these wounded places that never learned how to self-regulate. When I work with guys on this, they can often identify pretty quickly, oh yeah, I feel like I'm 12 years old when this happens.
The shift to expressing actual needs is about taking full responsibility. I have this need, I own it, and I'm going to get it met somehow. My preference might be for my partner to meet it, but if she can't, I'm capable of figuring out another way. That's vulnerable as hell because it means being direct, which gives your partner a clear opportunity to say no. And that might mean the relationship ends if you're not aligned. But that clarity is so much healthier than staying stuck in a gray zone forever.
The big piece here is building a bigger system around yourself. When your entire emotional world depends on one relationship, bringing forward a need feels like life or death. When you've got other men, other support, other ways of taking care of yourself, there's actually less urgency. You can bring needs forward more cleanly because you know you'll be okay either way.
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Jason Lange: To a shocking extent. They can often start to identify pretty fast. Oh, yeah. Actually, I feel it reminds me of this age. Like, I can feel that, and that part of me comes forward in these situations. And so there's. Yeah, there can be, like, a youngness associated, I think, with neediness, even if it's not conscious. That really ties together a lot of those pillars in. In a sen.
Melanie Curtin: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode with Jason Lange. Fan favorite. Glad to have you. And today we're talking about neediness and needs. What is the difference between being needy and simply having needs? And this is a topic that comes up, I would say, fairly frequently in our community and is, I think, really core to who we are as human beings. Right. Having needs is one of the core things that is true about us. And where is the line or where is the. Yeah, where is the boundary between having needs versus being needy, which has a certain connotation that we're going to get into, and a certain feeling in the body, mind, and a certain. It inspires a certain feeling in our partner. You know, there's a. There's a difference between those. So we're gonna. We're gonna get into that. So, yeah, I would love to hear from you, Jason, to start about just what has your. So sort of personal experience been in this area of feeling needy or. Well, and we'll start with that. Just your personal experience and then your experience of a partner feeling needy.
Jason Lange: Yeah, for me, you know, is more of a kind of introverted type that can be in my own bubble. It's maybe not the highest challenge for me, in a sense, it's actually identifying when I do have needs. But, you know, I definitely would notice this one back in the day when I was interested in partners and there was like a. A dysregulation in my nervous system if something wasn't going how I wanted it to, essentially. And it's an actual dysregulation, like a feeling, you know, kind of pit the stomach. I'm not okay. I need something outside of me to shift, to become okay. And that would often be the roots of that neediness from. For me. And until I understood, you know, where that came from, I didn't have a lot of control over it. And these days, you know, I think it's about me just advocating clearly for what I need, which for me, sometimes it's just like space, time off, acknowledgement, you know, pretty simple things. Touch. But that distinguishing the two, I think, is a big part of why we're here. And what is you know, more of an art than a science in a lot of ways. But I think there's some pretty core things we've seen both in the clients we work with and in ourselves that can help distinguish, you know, this spectrum a little bit.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, let's. Let's kind of get into the difference between them. And I know that I asked you about your personal experience, and then I am curious about your experience of partners neediness, like what your. What your lived experience has been of that. But I think that we should sort of go through a little bit of what the differences are before we do that. I think that'll help give it a little more context. So how would you define neediness versus having needs? What are some hallmarks?
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. So this is something I was thinking about based on one of our calls, and I. I did an episode on. On my show, and I. I think there's a couple of key things I distinguished for neediness in particular. It does tend to come with a dysregulated nervous system and some emotional urgency. There's like a. I need this sometimes bordering on even kind of vampiric. Like our nervous systems are often quite activated. And for me, it's the sense like, I won't be okay unless this thing outside of me shifts. So there's an urgency to it and, and sometimes like a charged quality. In my experience, I've seen it often correlates with indirect communication as well. So there's this kind of using more hints, nagging, covert methods. There's not really often a clear ask or directness. So it's often a lot more indirect, I've seen. And I think this ties into a lot of, you know, Dr. Glover's ideas we've talked about of COVID contracts. Oh, if I do this, then you'll have to do this. That often comes from a more needy place in my experience. It puts the locus of power outside of you. So when we're needy, it's someone else has to. Something out there has to happen for me to feel okay here and I need you, or I need society or I need whatever to change so I can feel okay. So it's actually giving our power away often and can create codependent relationships. And then, you know, the other one certainly with me sometimes is there's like, along with that, there's kind of a collapsed energy that, you know, we don't have as much agency in it. It's like, ah, this is how it's always going to be. Or there's like a hopelessness for Me in it. And yeah, there's this, like, I need this thing outside of me would be, you know, some of the first big hits I have on neediness.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, this brings a couple of things to mind. One is, you know, at the beginning, you mentioned that one of your major issues back in the day was actually identifying what you need. And I want to kind of slow that down because I want to. You know, there's this concept of core universal needs. Core needs that we all have. All human beings need to feel respected. We need to feel loved. We need to eat and breathe. You know, we have certain fundamental needs. And there's a way that when we don't actually know what those needs are, it's harder for them to be met. And I'll give you an example. The need for empathy is a real need for. And it's universal. Everyone needs empathy. But if you don't realize that and you're trying to get it, let's say, from your partner and it's not working and you're not getting. Can feel like, you know, to your point, it's the end of the world, right? It can feel like it's the end of the world. And part of what's useful and valuable about being able to identify core needs, which we are going to talk about, is that it can help in the moment to say, I have a need for empathy and it's not being met here, which is a different way of feeling it and a different way of meeting that moment. And it gives you more choices around, oh, I have a need for empathy and it's not being met here. I'm going to go somewhere else for this need to be met because I know what it is. Right. And so in a case like that, I might call a friend that I know is a good listener where I will feel empathy. And, you know, to your point, Jason, it. It divorces the need from the person. Right. This is the only place I can get this need met. Can feel overwhelming and depressing and urgent because it's not happening. It's like I need this thing. And this is the. It can feel like this is the only source of it, which is essentially, we're talking about attachment, trauma. Like really a lot of this is going to be about, I needed this thing from my caregiver and I wasn't getting it. And it feels overwhelming because of course, infant, it does feel over. It is overwhelming. There's no other way to regulate and there's no way to know, especially pre. Verbally, you can't. You don't know things in the same way that you do once you have language in the brain. And so when you can slow it down and you can start to kind of get a better sense of what are my actual needs, what do I actually need and what is in this moment, this need is not getting met. What is the need that's not getting met? Because it can just feel so big and so overwhelming. And once I can identify something like I need empathy and it's not being met here, where can I get that need met? How can I get that need met elsewhere? Is, you know, I think part of the. Part of what can help in those moments. And the other thing that I really liked that you said was when we're needy, something out there has to happen so that I feel okay, right? Something in the environment has to shift something about the person I'm with, something else has to happen so that I'm okay, so that I feel okay, so that I feel safe, so that I feel regulated, so that I feel better. And when we. When that's true, there is a sense of urgency because it feels like I'm not in control. I'm not in control of this. I can't pull what's happening and I need this other thing to be different so that I can feel okay. Whereas when we're more clear about our needs and we're asking directly for them, there's a difference. There can be a different sense in the. In the body of I need this. Are you available for that? And then if not, okay, then I'm going to go somewhere else to get my needs met and we are going to get into the thorny, sticky topics of things like sex that are. I've made an agreement with you that this is where I get this need met. So if it's not met here, I'm not quite sure what to do about that. So we are going to get into that territory as well because that's a big one that comes up obviously. But yeah, I think that was really important to. As a way of telling what is neediness and what is needs. It's like when we're needy, something else, something in you has to shift or something in the environment, something has to happen so that I feel okay is going to be one of the hallmarks of neediness as well as that just sense of overwhelm or desperation. To me, when I feel needy, that's one of the main feelings in my body is desperation and longing. A kind of longing and yearning and overwhelming, like, oh, oh, I need this Like I need it, I need it, I need it. It's like not grounded.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I think that tied a few things together that I would maybe offer is like a, a fifth pillar there of it. Often neediness seems to often be associated with younger parts of ourselves. So and this isn't actually to shame that part, it's these. For these younger parts of ourselves, we do not yet have the self. Capacity to regulate self. So at that, those appropriate ages, we actually do need something from the environment, from our relationships to help us feel better and that can show up as adults. Right. So it's often these younger parts of ourselves that when we work with men, when I work with men to a shocking extent, they can often start to identify pretty fast. Oh yeah. Actually I feel it reminds me of this age. Like I can feel that and that part of me comes forward in these situations. And so there's. Yeah, there can be like a youngness associated, I think, with neediness, even if it's not conscious. That really ties together a lot of those pillars in, in a sense and you know, to kind of pivot to the other side when we can express a need. So the number one thing for me is it involves taking full responsibility for the need, which is I have this need, I own it and I express it and I am going to get it fulfilled Right. Some way. And it's. I might have a preference for it to be with you, but if it can't be with you, then I'm going to make some judgment calls in my life about what to do about it. So there's an active ownership of it. Take an active quality to it. And I've seen often correlated with that is there's a directness. Right. So instead of hoping someone notices, we actually own it. I need this. Are you up for that? Right. And it's more vulnerable. Right. The needs tend to be more vulnerable because when we're clear and explicit, it gives our partners clear and explicit opportunities to not meet us in that. And that for a lot of people is scary. And why needs are more vulnerable because if I bring this forward, the risk is it may bring the relationship to an end if we're not aligned on it. That's the honest truth. So oftentimes we'll skirt around it for a long time and it can, you know, neediness can perpetuate in a gray zone forever. Needs tend to bring things to clarity and closure in some sense. And I've tended to see there's more emotional resilience around, you know, as we're in needs. It's like, okay, I have this need and I have capacities and tools and systems around me to support me in this. So this isn't the only place for it. You know, it's not quite. It's not quite the right word, but it's. It's like it shifts to a preference. Yeah, A preference is this. And if it's not here, then I'm going to be able to figure out how to get that elsewhere. Which the truth of that means it might be outside of this relationship, quite honestly. And that's a pretty important one. And with that, it's about taking, you know, taking control again. Because suddenly we realize, oh, I have control over this situation by bringing this need forward and trying to get it met. And there's often just a lot more direct, vulnerable communication. And, you know, in my experience, it also creates a lot of opportunity for genuine connection when we're clearer about our needs and we get into that vulnerable place and there's not as much of a collapsed energy around it. Right. That is that kind of okayness of, yeah, here's what I need. And okay, if you can't provide that, I'm going to be okay, but it's going to have an impact on the choices I make about my life and who I'm with. And the beautiful thing is, you know, in the right relationship, when we can bring it forward clearly as a need, it can often sometimes be a huge relief to our partners. Instead of having to, like, try to guess what we need. It's like, oh, you need that? Yes, I'll give that to you right now. Yeah, or, or no, I don't have the capacity to that. But we're not in this, like, gray zone anymore.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I want to make this concrete. So I'm going to give an example from a couple that I work with.
Jason Lange: So.
Melanie Curtin: There'S this concept of the low desire partner and the high desire partner in a relationship. And that can be around really any topic. So let's say one partner wants to have a baby. They're the higher. They are the high desire partner in that pla. In that place. And often the other, their spouse is the low desire partner. Sometimes you meet, right. You both have the same amount of desire for something. So let's say it's sex. If you're both, you know, you've both got a strong libido, you match up, you. You want it at the same amount. But most of the time in most relationships, there's going to be a low desire partner and a high desire Partner around some important things in the relationship, right? And it could be cleanliness, right? I have a strong need for cleanliness, and you have less of a need for that. So I'm the high desire partner and you're the low desire partner. And this is a constant negotiation in. In every relationship. How do we handle difference? How do we handle difference? How do we handle, I'm the high desire partner here and you're not. So in this example, the woman had a strong desire for cuddling in the morning, and the man did not like. For him, it was kind of like, oh, yeah, like, I could do that sometimes, but it's not important to me. It's not a need. It wasn't a need for him, and it was a need for her. So for her it felt like. And it was a neediness need, right? It felt needy. It was like, it's so important to me that I feel dysregulated if we don't cuddle in the morning. And part of the, part of the, like, landscape of what was happening was that for her, it felt like, it's not enough for you to. To do it because you know that I like it or I want it. I want you to also be into it. Right. And so I think it's very analogous to a lot of the men we've worked with who say the same kind of thing about sex, right? I need sex. And we'll get into the why. Like, really, I think a lot of it, the time is about comfort. I need comfort and I need closeness. I need comfort and closeness. And this is a way that those needs are met. So it's not necessarily about the cuddling or the sex. It's about the need for comfort, the need for closeness. And that's kind of what we're trying to express here of the difference between neediness and needs. But so for a lot of men that we work with, there's a desire, strong desire for sex in order to get these needs met. And it's not just about, is she willing to have sex with me? It's, is she into it? Right? It's like, I want you to be into it. I want you to be with me. I want you to be present. I want you to be really with me when we're doing it. And for this woman in the relate in the relationship, it was much the same for cuddling. It was like, it actually feels kind of gross if you, if you do it because, you know, it's important to me. But you're not really into it, right? If it's like you're kind of cuddling me out of obligation, it's like a pity cuddle. Like, I don't want her pity cuddle. Like, that feels gross. There's a fundamental. I think there can be friction sometimes when it's like, I want this thing from you that involves you. Right. Like, it. Because that. That's the. I think the thorniest. The thorniest stuff that we deal with around neediness in relationship is I. I want to have sex with you. That involves you and your body and your presence and your, you know, your attention. It's not just, I need. Like, we were talking about empathy. I need empathy. I can get empathy from friends and mentors. And, you know, there are certain needs that feel a lot more able to be met outside the relationship. And then there are ones that involve physical touch and. And sex, sexuality, that feel. If you're in a monogamous container, that feel a lot more like, well, fuck, how do I deal with this? Or what do I do with that neediness if my partner is not into it? Like, where do I go with that? Because it doesn't feel accessible, as accessible to necessarily get that need met outside the relationship. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that. Yeah, just on that piece. And then I have another question.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I think this ties into. I mean, there's a. There's this fine line here of distinguishing between, like, codependency and generosity in that sometimes there's this, like, okay, I'm going to codependently give you what I want, what you want, even though I'm not into it. Like, there's just like a sticky thing around that that doesn't feel so good. And there's also a time in relationships for healthy generosity, which is, I know what a gift this would be to you, and I have the resource to offer it even if I don't get lit up by it in the same way. And I think a key thing here that, you know, Violet, my wife and I were talking about recently, which is probably a good distinguishing factor here, is direct requests around needs in a healthy relationship can help reveal what the other partner needs as well. So let's say around sexuality, if I'm having a desire to be intimate with my wife and I bring that forward and she's not there, there's an opportunity for her to get clear about, well, what would I need to be a yes to this, right? To not be doing it out of obligation, but to be energetically in. And that might be her taking time for herself, getting connected to herself, that might be her making requests of me, and then she can show up fully in that. And I think there is a little give and take here in. In that sense. And sometimes for her, it is generosity, where it's like, okay, well, you know, I'm not there right now, but here's how I know I could take care of myself for the next couple hours to be a yes to that. And that's generous. Right. From her. And there's a good back and forth there, I think, around couples, because we don't, you know, it's not about a couple or a person overriding their boundaries or honoring themselves, but there is this. Well, part of loving a partner is loving a partner. So when they have a need, we come in. But we want to do that from kind of a generative, abundant place versus that scarcity. I'm not going to be okay place. And that takes a lot of, I guess, just consciousness from both partners, because there's always going to be things we negotiate. Right. Even, you know, as simple as the five love languages sometimes. Right. Some people need a certain thing more than others. And what my wife needs isn't necessarily what I default to giving and vice versa. So we kind of have to meet each other in the middle a little bit. And I think most couples are up for that. When there's a flow of reciprocity happening, meaning I get some of my needs met sometimes, she gets some of her needs met sometimes. And there is a little bit of generosity there. Then there's a willingness to come forward. I think for a lot of guys, it can be hard on both sides if one of those circuits isn't working there. There can be the resentments and frustrations.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I really like what you. What you just said, and I want to tie in something we were just talking about in our program on one of our calls, which is, I think when I think back to my relationships and a lot of the women that I know, one of the needs that I have is the need for acknowledgement, the need to be seen. They need to be seen, and the need to be praised. And when I say praised, I don't just mean, wow, that's a pretty dress you're wearing. I mean, wow, I see how much you do for your clients, and I'm really impressed. That would be. That would count as praise to me. Right. I see. I see you. I see you. Or like, you know, for sometimes for our clients that are married and have kids, things like that. Like, I really respect the way that you just put. I really respect the way that you just handled that with the kids. Like, the way that you explained, you know, you know, one kid was hitting the other and the way that you really slowed down and you were with the kid that was hitting. Like, I really see how much you put into, like, harmony and acknowledging each person's. Each person's needs in that moment. The needs of this sibling and the needs of this sibling. Like, I really respect that that counts as praise. Or I really love the way that you light up when you talk to your girlfriends on the phone. Like, there's something about hearing you laugh from the other room that just brings me so much joy. That's praise. Praise is things I see about you that I approve of and like things I see about you that I approve of and like, I enjoy this about you. I adore this about you. There's a word that I've often used in relationship of I love to feel cherished. When I feel cherished, I feel soft. And this is one of the ways that I feel cherished. And I think it's particularly true, like you said, for people who need words of affirmation, for whom words of affirmation is a love language. I really think if you. If you are someone listening and you have a partner who needs words of affirmation, this can be transformative. Is bringing in more praise, you know, bringing in more praise into the relationship, I think can add a lot of lubrication.
Jason Lange: Right.
Melanie Curtin: Like, everything tends to flow better when each partner is feeling loved. And there's more, like you said, generosity around wanting to meet the other person's needs. So when our needs are met, we are more generous. That it tends to be true. In general, when we are resourced, we tend to be able to give more. When we are resourced, we feel more. More able to give. And that part about knowing what you need. Right. I think where I'm going with this is I think there are a lot of women in relationships who become bitter and angry and resentful over time because their need to be seen is not being met. But they don't know how to. My need for being seen is not met. So they say things like, you never take me out anymore. Or.
Jason Lange: Right.
Melanie Curtin: Like, the. The ways that it is expressed become complaints. It's like, I'm invisible to you. Right? It's like I'm invisible to you. Is not sharing a need. It's. It's not specific. It's. And it can feel confusing because it's like, what are you talking about we're in the same room. I'm seeing you right now. Right. It can feel like I don't get it, like, what's going on? And it's because it's not a clear and direct ask. Like, I need to be. I need to be seen. I need to be valued in this way, to feel radiant and alive and bright and, you know, or I need emotional closeness. Like I need to feel close to you in order to want to have sex. That is a very mature way of saying it, and a lot of people don't say it that way because they don't even know that that's the need underneath. They just know I'm a no to sex right now. Right. It's like we haven't even talked since the morning. Like, you know, no, versus, like, oh, there's this need that hasn't been met and therefore I'm not feeling as open. So I want to. What I would love to go back to real quick is we talked about the. You know, what is needy? I guess my question for you is what does neediness feel like in your experience receiving it from a partner? What has that been like for you and how have you negotiated that?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, it. Sometimes it's this. What's the word? There's like a guilt if a partner brings it and I can't meet it. Like, I feel guilty when it's coming from that more needy place. And for me, it's off putting, you know, honestly, especially if it's indirectly, then it's. It's really kind of makes me want to lean out more rather than a direct, vulnerable quest, like, allows me to make a decision and lean in or not, but at least it's kind of above board, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I. I'd say the other thing is both as someone who's been in it and had partners come towards me with it, like there's. It's more of a victim energy. It is. It's just kind of like you're doing this or this or this, and it's just not particularly compelling to be around versus, you know, this platitude we've talked about before. You know, sometimes neediness can show up as complaints. And, you know, under every complaint is often a desire. And like we talked about, a desire is something. When we own it, it's a lot more vulnerable. And so when that comes forward, it generally makes me want to lean in to connection or feel compassion for my partner, even if I don't have the resource to meet that request. Right now I'm more. I'm going to have more bandwidth to want to find out how I can like to figure out a solution versus, oh, my God, all this responsibility is on me to make this better. And that just feels like burden. Often as a man, and there's one thing, you know, men deal with, it's feeling burdened versus, like, yeah, you know, I would love this. It's like, oh, great. Yeah, I would love to meet that for you. Here's what I need to be able to do that. And it just got a very different energy.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I want to go back to, you know, that. That thing about needing or I guess wanting. Maybe it's better to say wanting, like wanting cuddling or wanting sex and not just wanting the cuddling or sex, but wanting the person to be into it. Wanting them to be present, wanting them to participate, wanting them to be engaged, wanting. It's not just the act. It's like, I want you in the act. I want to feel you. I want to feel your heart, I want to feel your body, I want to feel your presence. I want to feel you with me. And I think those are the stickiest ones to talk about. I'm thinking in particular about a woman friend of mine who's. Whose husband ended the relationship in large part because he had been asking, you know, or complaining, I guess, complaining for years about their sex life and, and. And in awkward, clumsy ways, saying, like, I really want more here. I really want to feel you with me. I want you to be more open. I want to feel your excitement. I want to feel you wanting me, you know. And so she would have sex with him sometimes, but it was painful for her, and that was obviously really hard. Like she didn't want to have sex because it hurt. And what was really needed and what happened after the relationship ended was that she did her own work around sex. She went and got a mentor. She got somatic therapy. She did her work on herself around sex and sexuality. And that the reason I bring that up is because this is really sticky, right? It's really sticky when, you know, a partner is. Is essentially saying, I need you to be deeply present with me in this area. Because that's a different. That's different than just I need you to take the trash out more. Right. Or it's not a simple action. It's not a simple behavior change. It's not a. It's not simple. It's complex. And it involves the body, mind. Right. It's like, you know, I'm thinking also of Partners who are basically like, I need you to be more grounded. You know, I need. I need you to be more grounded. I need to feel you in your power more. That is not how it shows up. Like, that's not what people say. You know, they say things like, oh, gosh, what would be a good one? What would be like, something that, let's say a partner would say. If they're. If they're. If they couldn't feel their partner in their power, Their partner was ungrounded a lot. What. How would that. Trying to think of what they would actually say.
Jason Lange: You know, might be stuff around. I mean, it would be more of a feeling of, I don't trust you. Like, you know, it would just be. That would be coming out. So it'd be a lot of. Can come out as a lot of nitpicking and questioning decisions and pushing back. In a sense would be an indirect way that, like, oh, I don't trust you. Yeah, your power. They don't feel you're in your power right now. So I'm gonna micromanage.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: A lot of things because I can't, you know, and it's not a bad solution to that problem. It's like, well, if you're not going to take the, you know, the reins, I have to take the reins. But yeah, I mean, there 10, you know, it does tend to be like. Yeah, there's just kind of this, like, you know, it is a lot of, like, you. Energy is what I've seen, you know, show up with this stuff on. On both sides. That is hard to work with, frankly.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think that's one of the, you know, one of the things that I've been inspired by in terms of the work that we do with men. And the ways that I've seen men shift is that as they step into their power and they become more authentic and they feel themselves more. Then the ways that they show up in their relationship naturally generate more polarity, and so they tend to generate more trust in their partners. I'm thinking specifically of one of our clients who was kind of in a gray place with this woman where they were seeing each other, but it wasn't defined. And. And she was pretty stressed out a lot. Like, she was hold. Holding a lot of anxiety around, like, what's going on? Where are we going? What's happening? And she felt like, you know, sometimes she'd bring it up and he didn't really have a good answer. Nothing was really moving. And then in our work together, he. He gained clarity and he was like, yeah, I'm. I want to do this right now. You know, like, I'm going to claim her. And so he, he came to her and he was like, let's close the relationship. We're. It's just going to be you and me. Let's. We're going to do this. Like, we're doing this. And she was able to relax and she was able to show up in a more relaxed, radiant way with him. That was because of his clarity. The. She had a need for clarity that was not being met, and she wasn't able to say that.
Jason Lange: Right.
Melanie Curtin: It was like she didn't know how to say, I need this. And so there was kind of like these acting out behaviors and this, you know, dysregulation around it. And then when he brought that clarity, she was able to relax in this, you know, in this way, which then is inspiring to him. Right. He has a more relaxed woman. Like, it's more. It's more fun to be around her. It's like, just more relaxing for both of them to be in that place. And, and so that's the thing about, you know, neediness and needs is that working with mentors, for example, and I'm not just talking about coaches, it could be therapists, it could be friends even. It could be, you know, whoever, just any mentors. Right. Is that it helps you come to clarity about what are my actual needs here. And that's one of the things that I've noticed in working with couples is that sometimes it takes a third party to help sh. Shine a light with, with compassion on both partners to kind of get at what are the deeper needs here. Right? What is the. What is the need for, you know, let's say the need for a, A, A part. A partner where, like, they can sense the neediness coming from their partner. Well, they have a need for autonomy. I need to know that I'm able to say no and it's not going to be the end of the world. Like, I need freedom. Like a. There's a certain sense of freedom of like, if you. Let's say it's about sex. Like, if I say no to you about sex, are you gonna pout and. And ice me out for the rest of the day or the week or the month or forever? Right. It's like, do. Am. Do I actually have the freedom to say no? And part of why I'm bringing that up is that the neediness is tender. And like you said, Jason, the neediness comes from very young places. Most of the time. It's deep, unmet needs that are showing up in the body, mind, and that is not always the. The place of your partner to process. Sometimes. Often it's better to process that with a mentor, with a therapist or a coach or a group or holotropic breathwork or, you know, women's circle or, you know, other places. And you can use that scenario. You can kind of put yourself in that. In that space, right, of, you know, imagining the moment, let's say, for that woman who's like, it's the morning. He doesn't want to cuddle me. How am I feeling? Like, just the desperation that, you know, you can kind of put yourself in that place. But then with the mentor who's holding space for you and is inviting forward the big feelings and is able to sit with them and be with you so that you can process some of them, you can move some of this energy. It's not like it's stuck forever. And it doesn't have to be an overwhelming, paralyzing need, Neediness type thing forever. But it's not always healthy to process that with your partner. It's not always. It's not their responsibility. It's like this, this desperate neediness quality, right? This like, oh, yearning thing. It's, it's. I'll just own mine. Like, that's mine. And it's triggered by, you know, when my partner doesn't show up in a certain way. But it's my responsibility to then deal with that in some way. And I think that where it gets really sticky in relationships is when we have to share with a partner. I need you to address this, right? That's fucking scary. It's really scary. You know, those, those conversations are really hard because again, it's not a simple behavior change. It's not, you know, put your socks away. It's like, I need you to look at this part of your body mind. Like, I need you to. I need you to dig in here and do some uncomfortable growth work. Are you up for that? So can you share a little bit about that? Because I think this is. This is one of the hardest aspects of relationship, honestly.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, needs in a lot of ways just then tie right into the actual boundaries. Part of what you're naming there is, okay, if this doesn't shift, I'm going to take a certain action for myself. Right? That's what can be so disruptive about bringing needs forward. And like we said a lot of times, neediness stems from these old wounded parts of ourselves that were created in attachment or attachment wounds. So it can be very hard to bring this stuff forward with a partner unless we have a little practice or skill or structure initially in working with professionals can definitely do that. And, you know, we were talking about this on one of our calls recently. You know, I think part of the solution for all this is to. To build a bigger system around us. That's what you're really speaking towards, that we have more points of resiliency of how we can get support or where we can bring our energies and how we take care of ourself, which creates more space, paradoxically, for us to bring needs forward more directly. Because then there's not this, if it's not here, I'm doomed. Sense that creates that urgency and often feels like a lot of pressure on partners. Like I was saying, when I feel that pressure of, oh my gosh, if I. If I take care of myself here, that's gonna. My partner's gonna be in an even more dysregulated place. And then I feel guilty for that. But when the system's bigger, I think it gets easier to get clear about what we're needing and to it. Because the sense, you know, again, a lot of times the healthy need place is my preference is for this to happen here. And if it doesn't, I'm totally capable of going out and creating other circumstances to find it. And that might be like having to renegotiate the context of a relationship or making request of a partner of like, yeah, you know, I need you to go to some therapy to be able to show up, present in, you know, moments of intimacy with us. Otherwise I'm going to have to leave this relationship. Right. Or just, you know, it some sense the boundary there would be even more just like, I need this, otherwise I have to leave the relationship. It's up to you how you want to figure out how to be able to show up for that. I'm not going to control you, but this is the action I'll take. Right. And it is hard. You know, this stuff is really challenging. And which is why I think a lot of people don't want to bring it forward in direct ways because it. It's sticky, it's, you know, messy. And it does require often systemic changes. Right. And that's where we really tend to work with men on, you know, what's the system you have around you? It's whether you're in a relationship or not or stuck in one, you have control over that. So you can show up in the most healthy way and ask for these things directly. And then you're going to find out really fast, do you want to keep investing in, you know, these relationships you feel stuck in or places where you're not getting your needs met? And ultimately, you know, we want to be with a partner who, even if they can't do it all the time, there's that. There's that wanting to try to meet our partner's needs. Yeah, that's the thing that really points to the long term of like, okay, yeah, I can't always do that, and sometimes it comes up against my own edges. But I want you to feel good. And so how, as a team, can we keep working towards that, I think is the big marker of, you know, the healthy version of this, because our partner's not always going to be able to meet all of our needs. Right. That's something we come across time and time again with men. And so we want to create that resiliency of a bigger system around us, which then creates a little bit more space in the relationship in healthy ways, I think.
Melanie Curtin: And I want to speak to that pattern because it does come up so much in our work with men of a man coming who. Who's in a partnership or who has been in a partnership where he hasn't had his sexual needs met, he hasn't felt like he's gotten enough sex or enough intimacy. And one thing, I'm thinking specifically of one of our. One of our alumni who had this dynamic in his marriage. And as we worked together and as he built more friendships with other men and with real, vulnerable, authentic close relationships where I'm actually telling you how I really feel and I'm actually feeling met and heard, that's emotional intimacy. And it can happen with friends or family members or it doesn't have to happen with a spouse. But in our culture, so many men fall into the trap of the only person I'm sharing my inner world with is my spouse. And so I have this longing and this need to be close to her in this way. And basically what happened was as he built up, like you said, his system, and he had more places where he was feeling deeply met and resourced and loved and seen. He found that that need, that his neediness with his woman around sex diminished. It didn't go away, it didn't disappear. He still wanted closeness with his wife. But the neediness part, the desperation, the anxiety, the like, that longing quality diminished. It went down. And then, lo and behold, she was up for sex more because there Wasn't that quality attached to it? So I think. I just wanted to say that because I think there's a lot of hope here and there's a lot of capacity for transformation when we are actually more conscious and more aware of what the true needs are. Right. I need comfort. I need praise. I need acknowledgement. I need emotional intimacy. I need whatever it is. It's not like a magic bullet that just solves everything all of the time. There's a lot of complexity and nuance in this subject, but I do think that there's something especially for a lot of men around loneliness versus connection, building up more connection, having more connection and feeling more in your power. I can't tell you how many of our clients we've worked with where I feel like as they've stepped into their power, they've just felt better overall in all aspects. In their job life, in their home life, meaning with their family of origin. Right. The holidays are coming up. The ability to see, the ability to set boundaries and hold boundaries feels like power, because it is power. And then, like feeling more resourced in that area. And then how you show up with your woman changes. Right. The whole system changes when you're more. When you're more you. When you've got more you in there and more connection. Because our culture does not support that for men. We tell men not to feel. Well, we tell boys not to feel, or you're not a man if you feel. And we. And there's a disconnection effect. And so I feel like part of what we do in our work is kind of reconnecting men to each other, and that makes all the difference.
Jason Lange: Yeah, right. The, the. The image we. I was using for this recently. Right. Is if your system is only as big as one relationship, to bring forward a need has a massive impact. Because if that need isn't met there in that relationship, it's like the worst thing possible. If you're part of a bigger system where needs can be met in multiple ways through multiple people, even if it's not ideal, there's actually less risk of bringing that one need forward, and there's less urgency around it. And it, It's. It creates resilience. I think that's, you know, if you take anything away from this, if you want to shift to a place of having more clear needs and less neediness, it's build yourself in. Into a network and a system where you have more points of resilience for taking care of yourself, not just through an intimate partner. And that tends to lead the way then of in some ways inviting your partner to do the same. And then when you both are coming at each other from these bigger systems, there's a lot more space to try to support each other. In my experience and certainly in my.
Melanie Curtin: Marriage, that's a great point. And I would say that in my own life, the last thing I would say is that the neediness that I feel, I try to take to mentors and places where I can feel, wow, there's a lot of charge here. There's a lot of just desperation and yearning. This is bigger than this person that I'm partnered with. I need to get some support for this. I need to get some support from someone who knows how to do this. And for those of you that listened to the episode we did on Freeze, you know that there is something deeply transformative about just having another person as a skilled witness. As you move through big, raw, deep feelings that you weren't able to complete when you were young, it is able to be completed. You can complete the circuit. But often you will need, especially if it's pre verbal trauma, you will need someone else that's holding you in that, in that with you. That's something that you want to do with someone that's skilled. So as we wrap up here, if you are interested in working with us, you can go to Evolutionary Men Apply. And if you're interested in supporting the podcast and joining our community, you can always join our Patreon. We are having our call. I think this episode's going to drop and we're going. It'll be the next week, so it'll be next week. So if you want to join the Patreon and do the Q&As with me every month, you can do that. If you join at a $10 a month level or more, you will get access to that. And if you ever want to reach me, I'm@dearmen podcastmail.com I always love hearing from you. If something touched you, I want to know about it. And also if you have any topic suggestions, if there's any questions that you have about sex or dating or relationships that you feel like you would love for us to cover, please get in touch. And that includes if you want a girl talk on a certain subject. We have girl talk coming out later. This so very exciting and have a great week.
Jason Lange: Sam.
