321: ‘I’m afraid to show interest until I’m willing to commit’ | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Why I want to highlight this is it's it's not even about is it right or wrong, but they rarely feel good about that about themselves. On the other end of it versus Wow. I took charge here of my life and I ended it has a very different energy.

Melanie Curtin: Hey everyone. I had two choices for celebrations this week and I picked this one because I feel like it's quite on brand for this episode. So get ready. This one's really great. This is one of our graduates, he says. Three years ago I dated a woman named Alison with whom I had an intense, meaningful and growth oriented five month relationship. She was a positive experience and helped me heal from the damage caused by my very avoidant attacher ex wife. Allison taught me that conflict could be different, positive and restorative. We did not have a Disney ending, but I still think fondly of her and her own striving to develop her self awareness and soften her personality. I have not been back in touch with her but I wish her all the best and hope she found someone. As for me, I have found someone. I am now over two years into a healthy, secure, very sexual and very conscious relationship with Lisette. We both believe we will be each other's long term partners going forward. She had already done so much work on herself before we met and we bonded over her rainbow bookshelf being the colorful spines of all the self help books she bought and read and actioned after the breakdown of her own multi decade marriage several years ago. She has two kids almost identical in age to my own. We have very similar life stories and find ourselves in love. Oh how cute. I am still very close with both my sons who remain well adjusted and happy. Their lives have not collapsed because of divorce and they still love and are loved back by both of their parents. My boys are now 16 and 19. I also remain amicable with my ex wife and we are still in business together. Most recently she has finally started dating and I am very supportive and indeed Lisette and I will manage the boys short notice so that she can go out on dates. End of message. You will find that we talk about stepping stone relationships in this episode and I think this is a beautiful example and I feel very proud of this graduate and all of the work that he did during the course to help him evaluate whether he wanted to stay in his marriage, which he did not, and what he wanted to do after and how he wanted to go about it. So I love that story. I feel inspired by all of the players in it. I feel like everyone's lives get better when we do our work and when we spread that message and we become that transmission in the world. So thank you to that graduate. You know who you are, and I can't wait for you guys to listen to this episode. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode with Jason Lange. Fan favorite. Today we're talking about interest and commitment. This is something that we've heard from a lot of the guys that we work with that are in some kind of dating phase, whether they are getting out of a relationship or they're separated and dating, or they're, you know, dating for the first time or, you know, anywhere on the dating spectrum, there is something that we've heard and something that we hear sometimes on our calls, which is I'm afraid to show interest in a woman until I'm willing to commit to her or to. Yeah. Willing to commit to a relationship. So it's kind of a binary sort of outlook. Like, I'm gonna not do anything with anyone, you know, like, zero to I'm gonna be in a relationship with someone. Right. Like, I'm not willing to go in with. With someone until I know that I'm ready to commit to them. And there are sort of three categories of this that we've noticed. So we're going to go over those because. And I think a lot of it comes down to a similar dynamic, which is it's coming from a place of care and honor and regard for women. And I think I just want to name that, that we, we recognize and we see the, the, the love, the care, the regard behind this desire to not hurt someone, essentially. Right. Like, I don't want to show interest. I don't want to lead someone on. I don't want to have a woman get really excited about me if I'm not going to be able to follow through. And we're going to talk about maybe some hidden fears that are underneath that. But those fears can coexist with a genuine regard and a genuine love for our fellow humans and the rides that they're on. And I think especially, yeah, just understanding that women face particular challenges in our culture. And I think that there's sometimes there's just a lot of desire to do the right thing. Like, a lot of our clients and a lot of the men that we talk to, they want to do the right thing. They want to. They don't want to be, quote that guy. They want to be the good guy. They want to take care of women. And this is an expression of that. This can be an expression of that. So I guess I just want to say we see you in your, in your deep regard and your love and your care.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I would just add, you know, part of what we're expanding to here is, you know, every man that doesn't necessarily plunge right into a relationship, it's not because he's, you know, an asshole who's just using women like the stereotype. Like, there's actually a lot of men who, who have, you know, so much care and concern that causes them to not fully engage for different reasons.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, well put. And let's, let's start with that category. So like I said, there are three categories. The first one is I'm petrified of hurting a woman. Right. I'm afraid to show any interest or to go anywhere with a woman until I'm willing to commit. And this could even be, you know, at a concert or at the beach and you kind of catch eyes with someone and, you know, a part of you wants to go over there, a part of you wants to engage. But then there's a part of you that's like, I'm, I'm scared of hurting her. And I want to be clear about a few things up front when we talk about this. Category one is there really are periods of our lives when we are in transition and we are aware I am not emotionally available. Right. Like, and I think that, that it is respectful to, to sometimes maintain distance, especially if you're in a circumstance where you do know that the other person is looking for something real. And that's something that we're going to talk about because you actually don't know what someone else is available for until you engage with them and have a conversation about that. So if you catch eyes with a woman on the beach and you're like, you, I can't go there. Because, because your assumption is she's going to want a committed relationship. Sometimes you're going to be wrong about that. So I guess I want to say that there are some times when it is appropriate for your own healing journey, your own growth to say, I'm actually not engaging with other people. I'm not engaging in dating because I'm healing. That's a little bit different from, I'm assuming that all women want to be in a long term committed relationship all of the time. And therefore, if I'm not it ready for that, I'm not going to go after anyone. And that's what I think I hear often from our guys is that they have an assumption that every woman is always looking for that. And I do think that a lot of women are looking for that a lot of the time. And there really are stages and phases where that's not what they're looking for. And you know, there are women coming out of divorces, there are women that are also figuring themselves out and are kind of like, I'm not looking for something long term. Like, I'm looking to explore. I'm looking to get some experience. I'm looking to relate with a man that's different from the last two that I dated. Right. I'm looking to see what that feels like. I'm looking to relate. Just I'm not sure what I want. There's a lot of different, different things happening. And one of the things that. One of the reasons we're doing this episode is because sometimes we see men disqualify themselves before they've even had that engagement. And I think a lot of that comes from this fear of, well, I don't want to hurt her. Right. I have this story that if I, if I engage with her and we're vibing and we, and we start dating, then I'm gonna hurt her because I don't know what I want or I'm not sure. I'm sure that I don't want something serious. Can you share a little bit about the kinds of things that you've heard from men in this category?

Jason Lange: Yeah. You know, I think it is in a way that sometimes us men can perpetuate some of these gender stereotypes. It's like, oh, every woman's looking for a permanent, monogamous, long term relationship. A lot of women are, but not all the time, right? There are seasons to our life. That's what you're talking about. Some seasons we're looking for that. Some seasons we're like, no, actually right now I am in an intense growth opportunity with my job and it's number one for me. And that's going to be my focus for a little bit. And I want a relationship that slots into that and maybe isn't too serious because my work's super stressful right now. Or, you know, I have full time customy custody of my kid and he or she is my priority right now. And so I don't have the energy to be fully available for, you know, a totally in committed relationship. But what I would love is for us to get together two or three times a month, go out for a hike, have some fun, you know, have some kind of connection, maybe intimacy, whatever that is. Because that's what I'm Available for right now or. Yeah, you know, I, I notice I keep getting into, keep getting into relationships too fast or there's so many seasons there. And a lot of us guys will discount that. Right. Well, we'll say, well, okay, if, if I'm not ready for this long term thing quite yet, then I'm not going to initiate or move forward in any capacity. And I don't want to lead her on and hurt her feelings. And you know, that's, that's another one we sometimes, I sometimes hear from men that's, I think related to this is, well, I don't know yet if she's the one I want to commit to my whole life. So I can't go in deeper with her because I don't want to lead her on because I don't want to hurt her feelings. Right. And it's, it kind of creates a chicken and the egg problem then, because then it's like one foot in, one foot out the whole time. And almost inevitably neither partner is satisfied in that interaction because you can, she can often feel he's not, he's not really in, like, does he want this or does he not? And he's thinking, well, I can't go in because I'm not sure if, you know, if she's the one. So we see a lot of guys, a lot of guys dealing with this. And you know, the, the other thing that kind of initially brought this up is what we've seen shift in a lot of our clients is the realization that, you know, by learning to lead in the relationship and have these, you know, what we kind of call meta check ins or pace car check ins of like, hey, what's going on? What are you experiencing? Here's what I, where I'm at, here's what I'm available for. It can really change the dynamics. You know, usually that, like, I really hurt a partner is when I've led her on in the sense I never let her into my story or life or where I'm at or what I'm actually available for. And then it feels like it comes out of left field. But you know, if there's an appropriate amount of we're spending time with each other and we're just checking in. Which doesn't mean every date. Right. It just means there's like a certain weather pattern that you feel. It's like, okay, this is a good, good point for us to get on the same page again and make sure this is still working for both of us. But along those lines, the capacity we've seen develop in a lot of our clients, as I say, is trusting ourselves as men, that if we do go all the way into a relationship and we discover it's not aligned, it's not a good fit for us. Which does not mean the partner is a bad person or there's anything wrong with them. It's just sometimes we discover we're not a fit, our lives are not a fit that we trust ourselves to get out. Meaning instead of staying stuck in it because we're afraid of hurting her, when we really get that full body signal in a sense of, okay, this isn't working for me, I don't see a future here. I'm gonna cleanly and forwardly and not delay and just be honest about where I'm at and I can trust myself to get out of that relationship. This, I think, you know, that's where a lot of men, that's where I did a lot of damage. And one of the, you know, my primary long term relationship I talked about before I got married, that I didn't surface that stuff early enough and I stayed in out of fear. And then it was like a double hurt because there was the hurt of the actual breakup and then the hurt of, well, why did you wait so long? Because that's, you know, a year, two years that I could have been out there meeting someone else. And, you know, having that capacity inside of ourselves to trust ourselves to set a boundary and get out paradoxically allows us to go more full in and explore is this really the right person for me? And you know, the other thing I'll share that we've all obviously noticed in terms of polarity in couples is sometimes for the deepest polarity, a woman needs to really trust and feel us present. Right? But when we have the one foot in, one foot out because we're afraid of hurting her, she can't fully trust us and relax into us. So we don't actually get to experience her fullness in a sense. And then it becomes this kind of self reinforcing pro prophecy, you know, oh, I want a woman who's more in her feminine. And it's like, well, have you really stepped in and said, I'm here for this, let's see what's here. And a lot of guys are like, no, because I don't want to hurt her. And it's like, oh, wait, so you want her to be more open and trusting and energized and in her feminine. And you're not stepping more into that committed, present, masculine space like that's not very fair, is it? And again, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to commit to being life partners forever, but there's a real sense you can communicate and bring to a relationship of, I'm here for this. Let's see what's going on. Like, I'm in. I'm in to explore and for us to be able to answer the question of, are we the good fit for each other? And lo and behold, then we often get to experience a different part of our partner that we would never get to otherwise. And we might find like, wow, yeah, I love this woman. I'm in. You know, or you might find, okay, yeah, I, I really showed up and I was a full yes. And we still didn't just have a certain type of chemistry or something like that. So now I feel comfortable getting out.

Melanie Curtin: There's several things I really like about what you said, but the first is that I think that this is the, this is the part that a lot of men don't know how to do, which is, I'm here for this. Let's see what's here. I'm present, I'm available, I'm holding. You know, I'm, I'm really here. Doesn't mean I'm proposing. Right. It doesn't mean let's get married. And I think that's the distinction that I think a lot of men are not quite sure how to do. Right. How to be fully committed. And when we say the word committed, we mean invested and present right now in the relationship and really fully here. I think that those two are conflated. And I think that there's part. Partly there's a reason for that. Right? Partly there's. There is societal pressure, and I think there is pressure, and there is a certain amount of, of safety that is provided in some kind of container and some kind of agreement. And when I say some kind of, I mean, for example, even within a poly container, if I have a man that says to me, you are my primary partner, you are, you have my attention. And we're going to create agreements about people we see outside the relationship or outside this relationship, or we're going to figure out play parties or whatever it is, but I want you to know that you have my attention. That, I think is the quality of attention that we're pointing to, which is not a lifelong commitment, but it's saying, I'm here, I'm with you. I'm invested in this. I'm, I'm, I'm present. And that is a very different quality of presence than like, yeah, I'm here. Like we're, you know, we go on dates and I'm here and sometimes I'm over there and like this, this sort of wishy washy thing. And I, I just want to say, you know, I've, I've witnessed our guys and the, and some of the transformations that they make. They have come to realize, oh, I was wishy washy in large part because I was afraid of being trapped. I was afraid of, to your point, Jason, I was afraid of, of leaning in, stepping in, becoming more present and, and really in it with her. I thought that meant I will never be able to get out unless she decides that we're ending it. I can't tell you how many men we've worked with who have never broken up with someone or never ended a relationship before working with us because they didn't really know how to do that. And so of course, I guess I just want to validate. Of course you're going to be afraid to get into relationships if you don't know how to get out of them. It's kind of like if you think about a job, right, it's like, whoa. The stakes become a lot higher if you go into a job knowing you will never be able to quit. The only way you'll be get out of this job is if they fire you. Like, you don't have any agency, you don't have any power, you don't have any choice around how long you're at that position, whatever is going on in that position. And I, I feel like that's many of the guys that we've worked with, they've been in marriages or long term relationships or sometimes short term, but usually it's long term relationships where they did feel trapped and they did feel like they didn't have choice and they didn't have that sense of agency. And so they sort of drifted along or were suffering for a long time and didn't have the, the wherewithal or the. What is the word that I'm looking for self autonomy to evaluate. This isn't right. This isn't working. This is not healthy for me. I need to make a change and I'm able to make that change. And I think that's really something that I've noticed is, is a major growth point for many of our guys is coming into their power around wow. I am actually able to evaluate how things are going with a woman and be able to direct the current a bit. And I think that's the difference. And Maybe you can speak to this because it, it, it sounds like from some of your earlier experiences you were one of those guys drifting along with the current rather than charting a course. And I think that's something that I've done, I have witnessed in our guys be incredibly liberating as, wow, it's really different to be essentially in charge of my own destiny and to be able to say, yeah, if something isn't working, I'm going to be able to speak up for myself. I'm going to be able to advocate for myself either in asking for what I want and what I need in the relationship to see if she can provide that, and then making an evaluation from there or, yeah, making the evaluation. You know what, this is now the second red flag I'm choosing to exit, which maybe that person has never done before. So, yeah, I'm curious if you can speak a little bit to that emotional experience because I think you've had it of drifting along with the current of women versus charting a course.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think, you know, what it really ties to is the theme of this point you're making of, you know, a fear of hurting partner a lot of times. So I can't tell you, you know, in a sense, I feel lucky in the end that as painful as that relationship was in how didn't particularly treat that partner well in the end, in that sense, I did end it like I did find it in myself and I ended it. And you know, this isn't to shame men, but I've known men and experienced men and we've worked with men who essentially are so terrified of doing that they just wait and wait for their partner to break up with them and they almost. Why I want to highlight this is it's. It's not even about is it right or wrong, but they rarely feel good good about that about themselves. On the other end of it versus wow, I took charge here of my life and I ended it has a very different energy than I. I kind of waited for her to end it because I was too afraid to. And I think this just ties into a deeper point here that is kind of maybe the central fallacy of this belief that powers this. It's that, you know, even if it's a successful relationship and you deeply love the person, you're going to hurt her and she's going to hurt you. There is no way to do intimate relationship without getting hurt. That is just r for the course it's going to happen. You cannot be in relationship with someone and never hurt them. And it is totally unrealistic to. To think that there's some magical way you could be where you never really show her your full commitment so then she's not upset with. And you know, you've been dating for six months. Like, no, she's going to be pissed with you. That, like, for six months, I never felt you like that. Still hurt. It's a different kind of hurt, you know, in a sense, and this is different from, you know, I'm intentionally hurting a per partner or leading her on or telling her one thing when my body is actually saying another thing. This is just the. The realization that just by being in relationship, there is going to be her that goes both ways. So that in my mind, isn't an excuse. Right. Because it's going to happen. So you might as well do it with intention and try to discover what greatness there could be there in there, though. Like what the real connection is that, yeah, we're going to hurt each other. And there might be some real powerful love here, powerful connection here. And so I think just getting rid of that, because the most successful couples I know, they hurt each other all the time. Being human is sloppy, and we're sometimes unskillful and unenergized and we have bad moments, and that's just par for the course. And I think what makes, you know, why it's meaningful to choose partnership and relationship is what you're saying is, I'm willing to be hurt by you. Right? I'm willing to be hurt by you and stay connected and committed to you. You don't have to be perfect. I don't have to be perfect. And that allows for just a very different type of engagement here that I think if you kind of pull that away, men, it's. It's this realization that it's going to happen. So if it's going to happen, you might as well try to juice up the other positive things that. That could come as a result of that of, like, deeply embodied connection with each other. Authenticity, realness, learning from each other. Those things that are. That are really possible in relationship.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. There's several things I want to highlight there, and one of them is I think that a large part of why you were able to end things with that partner you referenced is because of your men's group and because of the personal growth work that you had been doing. And I really want to. I can't overemphasize. I know we say it all the time on this podcast, but it's vitally important to be embedded in community, you need community. You need deep friends that reflect you. You need support in order to make good choices. It's like if you're trying to make good choices and do the right thing in isolation, you often end up not doing the right thing. And I think this is the perfect example of that, right, is there are men who think that they're doing the right thing by not by kind of drifting out of a relationship. They emotionally drift out. They're physically present, but they're emotionally absent. And to your point, they're, they, they don't necessarily realize it, but they're waiting for the woman to break up with them. And your men's group is going to call you out on that if you're in a good men's group, and they're going to help you drop into how you're actually feeling. And if you keep saying, I'm really disengaged, I'm really disengaged. I don't, I've, you know, found that I've lost respect for her. I'm not attracted to her anymore. I don't like the way she treats my family. I fill in the blank. They're going to say, listen, it sounds like it might be time to end it. Have you thought about that? Oh, yeah, but I'm really scared. And they're going to be able to walk through things with you or a mentor, a coach, a therapist, someone, I guess I just want to say none of this that Jason is describing happens in isolation. It's always related to otherwise attuned people. They don't even need to be perfect. They just need to be listening. Listening and reflecting. So, and, and, and, and if you come from a family system where you weren't listened to or reflected, you likely don't have a lot of those folks in your life yet. So it's extra important for you to put energy and attention into getting those people into your life, bringing those mentors and bringing those groups and bringing community into your life because you, you didn't necessarily have it. And I, and I also wanted to say that I think this is a perfect segue to the second category of, of this, which is I'm afraid to show interest until I'm willing to commit, in part because I'm waiting for the perfect partner. And we see this show up. We've seen this show up with several of our men, I would say, where they're sort of ambivalent. They're kind of, it's a little bit like, oh, no one's quite good enough. In Logan Urie's work, she calls it the optimizer. There's a sense of, yeah, one foot in, one foot out. And we've done episodes before on avoidant strategies. This can be an avoidant strategy in terms of attachment, but for the context of this episode, it's I'm not willing to commit or I'm afraid to show deep interest in her because I'm not willing to commit because I'm not sure that this is really it, or she's good enough or this is, you know, is this as good as it gets? I feel like we should be having hotter sex or fill in the blank. And that's another place and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, but to me, that's another place where you trying to figure that all out alone is not going to work. It's really important to get other trusted people in there to help you parse out what's going on and to have a sense of, is this really her or is this me? Because it might be one or the other. Any thoughts on that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, this one was particularly meaningful to me and I think some of the guys we work with that had a life story like mine are maybe late, late bloomers and haven't had a lot of relationship experience. And where I think this dubtails is right. My story obviously is, you know, when we're young and in our teenage years, there's kind of a naivete, an optimism to, oh, this could be my life partner, right? Like I just met him at 16. Like, I'm going all the way in and you have an experience and then in that experience you learn what worked, what didn't you learn about yourself. You grow from it. And when you haven't necessarily had those experiences, it starts to build up this pressure of like, well, it's got to be the right perfect person, right? In a sense. And if it's not the right perfect life partner, I shouldn't go into it, right? Because I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to take advantage of a woman. And I think what I'm pointing to here is sometimes, you know, you've mentioned this before and we talk about it in our group. A successful relationship doesn't always mean lifelong partnership. A three month relationship can be highly successful in the sense you grow closer to someone, you learn more about yourself, you learn more about them, they learn what they want and don't like, you learn what you want and you don't like. And in, in a essence, you Leave each other in a healthier place than you found them because you're a little more clear about, oh yeah, no, I need someone who's a little more X, Y or Z or has more space for this part of me or whatever that might be. And if you're immediately eliminating those opportunities because it's like I can get a sense, you know, she already has, you know, maybe it's something like she already has a kid and I know I want to have kids of my own and she's not open to that, so I can't have a relationship with her. This is that, you know, where there's a real opportunity to be honest like you were talking about, see what she's available for. Maybe she doesn't need a lifelong commitment. Maybe she doesn't want you to be involved in that kid's life. And maybe you can just, you know, have a six month potent affair and you can actually learn so much about yourself. A love affair. You know, in a sense in that I tend to kind of emphasize here why this, you know, this does not mean you're settling and just jumping into any relationship. But what I mean is experience is always more valuable than theory in my mind, and particularly for guys like me who hadn't had a lot of relationship experience. You know, just getting into a two or three month thing with a woman, I learned more about myself than I did in five years of theorizing what that relationship would be like. And because of that I knew myself a little bit more. So the next woman I interacted with, right. Something else happened and so on and so forth until I got to the point, right, with my, with my wife, that when we met I was very clear what I was wanting and what I was looking for and able to lead in a way to see, you know, are we a match in this? Can we deal with conflict? Do we value intimacy? You know, all these different things and you know, are we each on a growth path and well supported? That came from experience, right? And so sometimes even if it's not your lifelong partner. I think part of what I just want to point to here is you can still learn so much about yourself and gain so much experience that's gonn inevitably feed your long term partnership or whatever it is you settle into. And to discount that because, oh, she's not quite right. You know, I always like, I mean, I think I've joked about this before. Like, you know, one of my non negotiables is I never want to date a woman who has a dog. I don't want to date a woman who has a dog. And lo and behold, I met my wife and she had a dog. Right. Totally blew that up. What really powered that, you know, I got under the surface of was I was available, the dog would, I was afraid the dog would get in the way of our connection if she's having to go home every night, every six hours. Turns out that wasn't a problem at all. But I learned something, you know, about myself in that process and that, you know, sometimes you have to have the experience to know is this the person? You know, I've said before, the purpose of dating is to discover is this my person? You can't discover it if you're keeping or at an arm's length in a sense. And you can learn more from actual experiences about yourself and what you like, what attracts you and what feels good in, in those actual encounters than you can not. And I think that's a problem some men sometimes get stuck in and it's like, oh, okay, well, I know she's not, I don't think she's quite the one. So I, I, I can't engage with her at all. Even though she might be the one that unlocks some part of you you didn't even know existed. And though your only a year, you'll be grateful to her for the rest of your life because of what she brought to you and hopefully you to her.

Melanie Curtin: I can't like highlight that part, that last part the most, because one of the things that I've seen repeatedly in our clients, especially men that are coming out of marriages, is that they frequently will have, you know, deeply meaningful short to medium term relationships after their marriage. There are several of our clients who said, you know, this woman that I was with for four months, we got closer than my wife of 20 years. And I think that's in part because they're able to actually embody and use the skills that they're building, let's say in work with us, right. They're actually able to use them. It's the same thing as you can read a book about soccer all you want, but if you're not going to scrimmage or play the game, you're not going to know about what that is. And there's so much value in that. There are two things about that. One is, I think it's really worth exploring, like you said, in a meaningful way. So not in a maybe kind of. And I, I, I really like the dog example because, or the, or the child example. Right. It's like, oh, I didn't want to date someone that has a child. And this person, you know, I connected with her at this dating event and she has a kid, therefore I'm going to exclude her immediately. Versus let me just see what's here. Let me see what's here for me. Let me talk to her about what she's wanting. Let me see what's here. And that I think is the fundamental difference between going and deciding. I already kind of know what I want, you know, and this doesn't match it, therefore I'm going to toss it out. Versus let me see what's actually here and really valuing the connection for the connection's sake instead of if this isn't leading to a long term relationship, it's not worth doing. And I think that's again, comes back to, I think there's an assumption a lot of men have that women have that assumption that if they're, if this doesn't have long term marriage potential, I'm not interested. And that's not true for all women. I'll give you one quick example from my life. There was a time that I was not bicoastal, but I was living in two cities at the same time. I was traveling between two cities a lot and I was pretty sure I was going to move back to la, but I wasn't positive. And so while I was in the other city, I went on the online dating market because I, I wanted connection. I wanted connection. I missed cuddling, I missed sex, I missed dating, I missed closeness. I missed just the value of human connection. I wasn't really available for long term committed relationship. If it showed up right, if it was like, wow, this man is amazing and I have to be with him, great. But when I was going on and what I was looking for was kind of what you were saying of I'd love to get together, you know, three or four times a month and go on a fun date and have meaningful conversation and have great, great intimacy, emotional and physical. Like I'm wanting connection, but I'm not wanting to go down the whole, the whole kit and caboodle. And I think that's a good example of co going into dating with the attitude of let me see what's here is, is valuable. And then the other point that you made was that you, Jason, knew more of what you wanted when you, when you met your wife because of the dating that you had done. And something that I see a lot in the men that we work with is many of them don't know what they want when they start working with us, by the time they end working with us, they do know what they want. But if you are a man out there and you're like, I don't know, I'm not sure. You know, I did the marriage thing, and it was really hard, and it didn't work out that well for me. I'm not sure what I'm wanting. I'm not even sure what I'm available for. Again, get those mentors into your life. Get that community into your life. Start taking some healthy risks. But. But get the mentorship. Get the community, because that's going to be what helps guide you into discovering what you want. And I think it's so important. What you said about. Again, I kind of come back to the. The scrimmage and game metaphor. You had done a bunch of drills. By the time you met your wife, you had done a bunch of drills. You had practice engaging and being honest and being vulnerable and going after what you wanted and speaking up and. And that's not just in dating. That was also in the men's groups that you were part of. And all the. You had done. You had done a lot of drills. It's unrealistic for us to think that we can play a game without doing drills. We need places where we can do drills and we can practice, and dating can be that kind of place. And especially if you're getting support and mentorship, you can try new things. You can take different kinds of risks. You have lots of people who are doing that alongside you. There's. There's just a lot that becomes possible. And I think that's one of the inspiring things that I've witnessed, I would say, particularly in the current cohort that we have, I feel like there are certain guys that are taking risks, and they're walking, watching other men take risks, and it's empowering them. It's emboldening them in good ways because they're thinking about, well, if he did it, I feel like I can do it too. You know, I'm going to channel some of that energy that he's got, and I'm gonna go after this. I'm gonna. I'm gonna try this. I want to shout out one of our clients who approached a woman cold for the first time ever in his life. And I. What did he say? There was a funny word he used. He was like, yeah, it was a catastrophe or such after or whatever it was. It was funny. It wasn't like. It wasn't super smooth. It wasn't like, you know, oh my God, this is the woman now we're dating. But it was really fucking brave of him and now he has that experience in his nervous system. It's going to get easier over time. He just did his first drill and he's going to keep doing drills and he's, he's committed, man. He's in, he's going to keep doing this. And so his growth is going to go really fast versus kind of hanging back, not really taking risks, you know, doing what you've always done. It's really easy to get into those ruts when we're, when we're flying solo, when we get into groups, when we get into community, there a lot more becomes possible. The last category is actually more about the man than the woman. And it's. I'm afraid to show interest until I'm willing to commit because I don't feel like I have my act together right in life. Like, I don't feel like I have the job that I want. I don't feel like I'm in the living situation that I really want. I don't feel like I have the financial stability that I really want. I don't feel like I have it together. So I'm not, I know that I'm not willing to commit. This isn't the place from which I want to commit. Right. I want to have my act together before I can commit. Therefore, I'm not going to explore with anyone because I feel like maybe it's a disservice to them or, or whatever. And I'm hoping that you can speak a little bit to this because I think that this is true for many human beings, but I do think it's especially true for men.

Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, we've talked about this idea before. You know, men, we really want to win and sometimes if we don't think we can win a game we'd rather not play than lose, you know, whether or not that's the great, a great life strategy, it's one a lot of us end up falling into. And I think that's at play here in relationship where, you know, most of the men we work with, they want to have a kick ass relationship where they can be present and provide and support their partner emotionally and financially and physically and, you know, be a great father. And this is what's really important for us men is, you know, and there's a fine line here because we do have to trust when we know we're not ready for that. Right. If a woman's like, yeah, I'm ready to have kids. And I'm like, I'm not. Like, I know if I was a yes right now, I would be overriding part of myself. And there, there are moments in time for that. And again, that's actually something I think that is best served by deep connection and reflection from community who know you and sometimes might actually say, yeah, that might have been true two years ago, but I think you're ready now. And now you're just scared, you know, and that's something else. But that many men I know, you know, will, in a sense are afraid to commit, afraid to show interest because they don't think they have their shit together enough. It's like, oh, I know. I have so much more healing work to do. I've just started. I have this pattern and this pattern and my finances are a mess. And I think what I just want to highlight underneath this all is really what I found in my life. Because you can talk to my wife about where my life was at when I met her, where it went immediately after that, where it's ended up. Now it's not so much as a man do I have it all figured out and perfect and sorted and I'm on fire. My life works. I think the most key thing is do I feel on track, meaning I know the pathway and I'm actively engaged with it, which is very different than I'm already there. Right. I'm at the top of the mountain already, so now I can have a relationship. Because the truth is, you're never going to get there. None of us do. Right. It's just this constant, ongoing journey. But I think maybe where I will meet guys who have some doubt around this is, I think you kind of at least need to know the sense of direction and path of my healing. But then where you don't have to discount yourself is you don't have to be done with all of that. You don't have to have it already fixed or already be healed or be a hundred percent out of debt. The right person is going to grow with you in that, truth be told. And some life partners, right, we can actually only attract and be in it with them when we're kind of close to each other, right? So if, if I'm like, I'm gonna wait till I have it all together. You're, you're, you're discounting a lot of people who would be happy to actually go on that same journey with you because they're like, yeah, you know, I have a sense of what I want to do. And, yeah, my business isn't where I want it to be or I'm still pretty deep in therapy. Things are changing. I know I want them to change more. And you're like, yeah, me too. Why not walk that road together, right? Because there can be a whole lot of relationship happening right now in that experience that you don't have to wait for it to be perfect or all figured out or sorted. I think a lot of us men in particular, we take on this provider role pretty seriously in some different ways. And it's like, well, I know I can't be a perfect provider, so I can't commit or lean in here. Whereas that's rarely needed these days. It's more, again, okay, I, I know where my partner's going. Like, the, the, you know, the, the woman can be like, I get a sense he's getting supported, he's getting help, he's growing. He's not going to be perfect right now, just like, I'm not. And so, yeah, but I'm in for this, right? Like, that is very much available to you guys. And, you know, it's a paradox. Sometimes we'll get men who, we need to be pretty, you know, nudge, nudge. You need to slow down and not dive right into another relationship yet, because that's a pattern for you that exists for reasons. And there's just as many men in this category where it's like, actually, no, I think you can go out now and start having some experience, like, probably sooner than you're ready for because you have this idea that, oh, my God, I have to fix that all first. Whereas, no, a lot of that, you know, and for some of this deepest stuff, you're only going to repair in relationship anyway, you know, this, this ability to stay present and not react and be grounded and work through our attachment wounding. So sometimes it's just as important to give yourself permission that, yeah, I don't feel like exactly where I want to be and everything. And that doesn't mean I can't build a meaningful, valuable, transformative relationship with someone.

Melanie Curtin: Now a client who he got out of a long marriage, difficult, long, difficult marriage, and was on the dating market. And then I think he saw a woman for around six months, something like that. And it was deeply transformative. Right? He had been pushed away a lot by his, by his spouse, by his wife. And this woman was able to come towards him in conflict. That was huge. He'd never experienced that before. It was deeply healing to feel like, I'm not always the one extending she's coming to me sometimes. And he was able to be emotionally expressive and be met in that instead of like, I think his ex wife was like, I don't want to hear it. She didn't say those words, but just energetically, like, I don't have space for that. I'm not available for that. I don't want to hear it. So he was able to essentially be in a really healthy second stage relationship. Right. We talk about everything, we process everything. We're, we're on the same, we're getting on the same page all the time. We're talking a lot. And he was able to see the value of that and also the limitations of that. So that when that relationship ended, he brought all of those skills to the one he's now in. And the one he's now in is an upgrade essentially. Right. It's a, it's a better fit, it's a better match. They're not triggering each other all the time. And I, I just have to say, I think from doing this work for a long time, there are a lot of folks that I know who have some kind of stepping stone relationship. They have some kind of relationship between, let's say the marriage that didn't work or you know, 40 years of nothing working. Right. There's a stepping stone to what becomes their committed long term relationship. Those are sacred. The stepping stone relationships are sacred. And they can only unfold if you allow them to. If you see what's there, if you do what we're talking about, which is kind of really allow what is there to become what it is. It's almost like letting a flower bloom and then sometimes the flower dies. Right. It's not always a long term thing, but it can be deeply transformative in that middle stage. So if you are interested in working with us, particularly around coaching, you can go to Evolutionary Men. And we also have three spots left for our live retreat at the end of this month. Also go to Evolutionary Men for information on that. It's in Northern California. We will both be there live coming at you. And that's just a few weeks away. So get in touch if you want those spots. D.