317: What exactly IS codependency? (How do you know if you’re codependent?) | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Often see, yeah, that codependent show up, like you say in the cult of two, in that two people have been extremely isolated their whole lives and not really known how to bridge that gap of building community or healthy connection. It's like two people lost in the desert will find each other and they create this kind of little oasis. But the problem with that is sometimes they get so hooked into each other, that's the extent of their relational system. And so there's no outside energy coming in.

Melanie Curtin: Hello, all. Welcome back to another episode. Today we're talking about codependency. What exactly is codependence? And how do you know if you are codependent? And I, you know, I use that title because it's catchy. But I guess one thing I would like to say right off the bat is that I don't love labels. And so what I think is more apt is to say, are there codependent dynamics here in this relationship? Rather than I am codependent or you are codependent. It's more fluid than that. And there can be codependent dynamics in different relationships. So I just want to say right off the bat, we're going to be talking about dynamics today and not a label of like, you are codependent or not. So welcome back to the podcast. Jason, always great to have you on. Thank you for being here.

Jason Lange: Excited to be back.

Melanie Curtin: All right, so I would like to start with definitions. So I think it's an interesting. And I did a little poll of our alumni, so we, we're going to incorporate real, real men's stories in here as well as our own personal stories and everything. But one of the questions I asked was, what in your personal definition is codependence? So how do you personally define codependency? And before we do those, I just wanted to drop in the Merriam Webster definition, which I think is interesting. According to the dictionary, codependency is a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person manifesting low self esteem and a strong desire for approval has an unhealthy attachment to another often controlling or manipulative person, such as a person with an addiction to alcohol or drugs. So according to the definition by the dictionary, it's. There is a certain polarity. You know, we talk about polarity a lot on this podcast and we, we don't always mean sexual polarity. Sometimes we do, but in this case, you know, two. I don't know if you would say complimentary, but just the polarity between two individuals is what this definition is pointing to. There's the person with low self. Esteem. Esteem and a strong desire for approval that's on one side sometimes that can be a nice guy. Right. We've talked about that before and I would just plug here. There's an episode we have called Do Nice Guys Attract Volatile Women? That if you haven't listened to and you feel like you do attract volatile women, you might want to listen to that one. Um, but there's that. That pole that side. And then on the other side is a controlling or manipulative person. And I don't think that this is always a consciously manipulative person. This isn't always someone who intends to cause harm or. Or malice. They are doing their best to get their needs met. But there is that, that. That polarity, right? This person that's really needing approval and then this other person who's kind of controlling or manipulative or need. You know, Needs a lot. Right? Needs a lot. So that's the dictionary definition. And then the personal definitions that we got, I thought were kind of interesting. One said, depending on your partner's emotional state to determine your own emotional state. So if she's okay, I'm okay. If she's not okay, I'm not okay. And that is how this person defines it. Another one said, beyond just clingy, someone who. His personal. Sorry, someone who is heavily dependent on a relationship for their happiness, the relationship fills a void in that person and gives them a sense of completeness. So here we're. We're sort of getting at I am only okay if I have a relationship, or I am only okay if I am in this relationship with this person. And we're not talking about, you know, there's a. There is healthy attachment, right? Which is, I love this person. My life would not be the same without this person. And then there's extreme sort of codependency, which is sort of like, I might die if I'm not in this relationship with this person. And again, we're sort of throwing a lot at you. But I just wanted to start with these definitions. I'll do one more. I would love to hear your thoughts, Jason. And then I have one more after that. Or. Yeah. Okay. So this, this is the longer one. This man said, the codependent relationship is filled with drama. There is blaming a victim and the rescuer, slash protector. That rescuer is filled with needing to be needed. That's where it began for me. I remember telling my college roommate when I got engaged that my. My fiance, quote, needed me, which set in motion Caretaking and a victim who needed me differently than what anyone else had. This created a sense of self worth because I could be the hero. But the problem was that was that only that the problem was that that self worth was based upon someone else's approval. Then this blame game would take place. That would lead to resentment for not accepting and appreciating me the way I wanted. That blame would take the false sense of self esteem away, which lasted just long enough to set up another victim experience. And then I'd step into the next opportunity to be the hero and gain back approval. Then the cycle would repeat, exclamation point. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on those definitions and then kind of what your own definition would be.

Jason Lange: Yeah, well, I think this tracks a lot, right, with what we talk about with nice guys. And one thing I want to link into codependency here is as we often witness it in our clients, there's almost always a very strong correlation to lack of boundaries. Meaning there's, you know, another way to think about codependency is a meshman, meaning like we're, we're deeply entwined with each other in a way where there's almost no agency or independence. So there's no boundary. And in a way, you know, what that does is it can create a stable system for certain couples where they're like, you know, it kind of keeps things together, but almost never leads to thriving. So particularly with a lot of the men we work with, you know, and it's not like every man realizes this getting into a relationship. Sometimes there is a little bit of the lobster in the boiling water where it's, you know, it's suddenly little things. Then we're sharing our finances. And then I handled this and then I handled that. And suddenly sometimes not till men get with working with us, they're like, whoa, I. I can't extract myself from this. I feel totally trapped here. But that sense in the nervous system is, I'm not okay unless you're okay. And paradoxically, what that sometimes leads to is men being in relationships with another partner who's not okay. And then it in some sense allows them to stay not okay. There's like a, you know, when two people are in a really challenged place in their life, sometimes they'll kind of reach for each other because it's like, if you're really stuck and down and not setting any boundaries, I can safely be with you there. There's actually no threat to us having to change is something we've often Seen as well. And, you know, I've had this show up in, in my life in a few different ways. You know, one of my previous relationships that I've talked about, there was some codependency in that we both didn't feel okay in our own skin. So as long as the other one was approving of us or wanting us, there was like a oh, I'm okay sense. And, you know, we were both going through some really challenging times in not thriving. And that actually kept us in that relationship longer than we probably would have otherwise because there was a fear, oh, if I wasn't with this person, this was, you know, my experience. I'm. I'm going to be alone, so I'm going to stay in this because I'm not. I don't feel okay with myself. And, you know, we get into some pretty funky dynamics in terms of overextending ourselves for each other and not getting what we need. You know, another way to often think about codependency here is like staying in a state of suffering out of fear that there will be some deeper level of pain or suffering, right? So it's like, oh, this is so bad. But what would be on the other side of me exiting this would be even worse then the other area. I've sometimes seen this come up for me, which I've done work on in the last couple years, was having to learn to be more boundaried with my nervous system. So that if my partner was in a dysregulated state, I didn't take that on of, oh my God, that like, ah, you know. And some of that's a good impulse, like wanting to be present for a partner, wanting to be attuned, wanting to be there. But there was a way, just through some of my family system stuff, that I would kind of merge with that state, which would actually make me less available to support her in a sense, because then I would get kind of anxious and dysregulated and whatnot. And so there was a little bit of codependency there of like, I need you to feel okay. So I feel okay. And I've had to really practice, you know, with some help of one of my somatic therapists of, okay, you're allowed to have your experience right now, and that doesn't have to be mine. Doesn't mean I don't care about your experience or I'm rejecting you, but I don't actually have to allow my nervous system to take on the energy of your nervous system. And this is hard Stuff. Right. Particularly for genuine, heart centered men who want to care about their partners, realizing that there's some codependent dynamics online that like, wow, I cannot live without you, you know, in a sense is a pretty hard wake up call and can be really challenging to work with because oftentimes what we'll see is it's not enough for one partner to change, but both partners have to make a commitment to growing themselves kind of out of the mess.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. And that's an interesting, you know, both partners have to make a commitment to growing out of the mess. I think there, there is, there's a lot to say here and I want to highlight that part that you just spoke to because in any dynamic, whether it's a codependent dynamic or some other dynamic that's causing suffering, growth is always possible, healing is always possible. And when it's a duo, when it's a pair, when it's a couple, you really do need buy in and commitment from both people if you're actually going to do it. And you know, there's a, one of my teachers said once, if one person's growing and the other person's not, it's not going to work. There's no way to make that work. And I think that there's something that we've seen in our work together that I've witnessed repeatedly in men, which is that often men that are in unhealthy relationships that come to us find the courage to move forward from that relationship. Right. Like graduate, I'm calling it, I like to call it graduating at this point, graduating from that relationship. And we also work with men who are in healthy relationships or somewhat healthy relationships. And they, they come to us because they want to energize the relationship. They want to, they want to grow, they want to show up differently, they want to polarize their woman more. You know, they just know that more is possible. And one thing that I've seen repeatedly is that very frequently as that man is doing the work and growing and healing and, and leading his woman then is like, I want to do my work. And so she gets inspired and she starts to do women's work and grow and open and evolve. So I guess I just want to say that there's there, there is always possibility, there is always hope. And it does depend a lot on who you're with. And are they willing to open, are they willing to commit to growth? And I think that's really part of what we help men evaluate. I mean, we've had multiple men, I would say, over the past year or two, who've come to us in some kind of state of limbo of. I'm not sure, I don't know about this relationship. I'm not, I'm not sure about this marriage. I don't, I don't know what I want. I'm not sure if it's healthy. And we have stepped along with them and guided them on, on the path of determining that. And I really, I don't want to skip ahead to the end of the book type of thing, but I do think that codependency is often a cult of two. Codependency is a cult of two. You've got these two people looking at each other and, and doing a lot together, right? They're, they're in it together. And there's not a lot of outside support, meaningful outside support. I don't mean you might see people during the day, you might have work friends, you might. But I'm talking about meaningful, intimate support structures. That is often missing. There's often a sense of isolation and this cult of two where you aren't getting a lot of mentorship or outside help. And so it can be confusing. And that is, I think, I would say, one of the hallmarks of codependency is do you feel like you are kind of isolated and sort of stuck and you're on a little bit of a roller coaster, right? Because that sense of I'm only okay if she's okay is unstable. Because if she's frequently dysregulated, then you're on that train with her. You know, your, your well being is tied to her moods and that is not a stable system. So I, that was a lot. But the other part that I really resonated with you on, Jason, was when you talked about, you know, your somatic therapist stepping you through. You can actually hold your ground and your nervous system. You are allowed to be with what you are feeling, separate from your partner. She can be dysregulated and be having a whole experience over there. And you don't have to merge with her and take that on. You can actually be in yourself, in your body, mind, and have compassion for her. It doesn't mean that you don't care. And I think that's where a lot of men get hung up because they feel like, well, I, you know, if she's not okay and I'm just this cold, callous dick over here that's not providing any reassurance, who the fuck am I? That's not really what we're saying, but there's a. There's a subtle but meaningful way that. Where. That you can grow into and it's not an accident that that was with a mentor. Right. A mentor helped step you through that. You didn't figure that out on your own. A lot of the time we need mentors. But you were able to get to that place of oh wow, I can stand on my own and be my own person and have compassion for my partner and love her while still being boundaried in myself. So I'm not kind of merging with her. I'm not self sacrificing. I'm not just. There's just. There's a difference between those two states. So I wanted to highlight that because I think that's really something that we learn and we grow into as people. I would say that I similarly, I was very enmeshed with my caregiver growing up with my mom and I had to learn how to become my own person. And I thought, I thought everything was fine until I was in my twenties and my relationships sucked. And I thought to myself, this doesn't seem right. Something. Something doesn't seem right. And I had to learn how to in. In many ways exactly what we're talking about here. Be my own person and recognize like my partner can have an experience and I don't need to self sacrifice. I don't need to martyr myself in order for them to be okay. And that was a little disorienting because that's really what I learned. That's what I learned was normal. That's what I grew up with. And so unlearning things like that is part of why we work with mentors because we don't know how to do it. If we did, we'd be doing it. So curious if you have any. Any thoughts on that before we move on to the next section.

Jason Lange: Yeah, there's almost, I mean not always, but often roots of this in our attachment system growing up, right. Just what we've seen and typical nice guy. Often that yeah. I learned to adapt my behavior to meet the other person to. To a huge extent. So oftentimes there's a process by which we're disconnecting or shutting down or disowning parts of ourselves and what we're needing in the relationship in order to keep it safe and connected. You know, in a sense, I think that word is just really coming strong to me right now. Of one way I kind of want to frame codependency is it's a way to often attempt to create some safety. So it's not like it's a we're doing horrible things or you know, we don't think of it as dysfunctional. In a sense it's, I've created this safe system where in some sense it's like I can't thrive here, but there's like a bottom floor. You know, I feel like, okay, we can't sink below X as long as we're linked to each other. And so, you know, I have a lot of compassion for guys who discover they're in, you know, relationships that have a lot of these tendencies because, you know, oftentimes, yeah, part of why that dynamic was created because they're wanting to create some safety for themselves and for their partners. And you know, a lot of guys we work with as well, one of the most painful spots they'll often find themselves in is this fear of, well, if I disentangle and exit the relationship or start setting some boundaries, my partner may actually suffer, like hurt themselves or not make it like sometimes it can be very heavy. And so there's this feeling of I love this person. Maybe I don't want to be in intimate relationship with them, but I love them. And I get a sense if I leave it'll be so devastating that I don't know what'll happen. And so I'm going to kind of stay in this kind of frozen stuck state for, for, for their sake. So it can also have, you know, noble intents that behind it, you know, why a lot of guys end up in here. But there's a key, you know, there's a key piece I want to speak to here that kind of links into that triangle you were talking about of. You know, the hard thing about these code dependent dynamics is they do tend to create stasis. So not a lot can change. And sometimes a big edge for guys we work with is, yeah, there's this deep fear that if I change the context of our relationship, my partner is really going to be in pain or hurting themselves. But paradoxically, our willingness sometimes to stay in that dynamic is actually what prevents them from growing. So it's like we perpetuate the same dynamic in a sense. And you know, we've worked with guys on both sides that they've exited and it's caused, you know, some growth or they've been the ones who were left. But paradoxically, as painful as that is, that kickstarts their growth and transformation. Right. In a way that had they stayed in that codependent Dynamic, They. They never, ever would have had that, that change, that growth, that transformation. And so, you know, we're trying to create safety here for. For each other. And we can often come to see that, like we've talked about, like you talked about with polarity before, we're really doing our conscious work. We'll often attract people kind of. I don't quite know how to put this, but, like, that are resonating at the same level of wounding as us. Right. So it's like, well, okay, we're both right here, so we're not going to be able to thrive in X, Y or Z. There's no huge threat to the system, in a sense, if we're both struggling with something. And the work we kind of invite men into starts to change that. Right. It really starts to change that. Of, wow, okay, maybe I don't have to forever be stuck with a partner who can't pay their bills or gets so disregulated on a regular basis that I get disregulated, you know, on a very regular basis. Or, you know, the other place we'll see is just to close this out. We'll often see. Yeah, that codependent show up, like you say in the. The cult of two, in that two people have been extremely isolated their whole lives and not really known how to bridge that gap of building community or healthy connection. It's like two people lost in the desert will find each other and they create this kind of little oasis. But the problem with that is sometimes they get so hooked into each other that that's the extent of their relational system. And so there's no outside energy coming in. And that's where we see a lot of the biggest problems. Because then if something really does challenge one of the partners in terms of health or psychology or finances, it all falls on the other person in that dyad. And that creates so much ongoing stress that then doubles down on this. Well, I can't leave because he or she has no one else. Right. How. How mean would that be of me? And then guys get stuck.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I. I had. I was in a relationship once with a man who. I feel like we had some codependent dynamics. And to your point, I remember being worried about breaking up with him, and I knew I was going to break up with him in large part because I didn't feel like he had close friends. He had friends, but he didn't. He didn't really invest in them. He wasn't deep friends. You know, he didn't have a lot of support outside of me. And that made me really nervous. I did not feel safe with that. And so it's interesting because it's almost like, to your point, we weren't quite a match. And so I left the relationship. And when I left the relationship, you know, I think this happens to a lot of men where they fear that they're not enough. Right. And so when I imagined being him, I feel like I wasn't enough for her to stay. And it wasn't true that he wasn't enough, that he wasn't open and he wasn't growing and he wasn't developing himself consciously. So it's not that he wasn't enough, it's that he wasn't open enough.

Jason Lange: Right.

Melanie Curtin: It's like, I need you to be more open. I need you to be growing. I need you to be in. In community. I need you, you know, and I, you know, I would say taking responsibility on my side. I never said that to him. I never said, here is what I would need for, you know, you to. To be with you. Because I felt like it wasn't my place to say, I need you to have better friends. I need you to have a better support system. I need you to get therapy. I need you to get somatic therapy. I need you to engage in growth and consciousness work. I felt like that would be bossy or bitchy or too much or demanding or, you know, I did not think that it was my place to say, I need you to grow if I'm going to stay in this relationship. And I'm not sure that he was really in a place or ready to do those things anyway, so. And I think I sensed on some level, but where I'm going with this is that I was pretty intimidated by what is going to happen to this man when I leave because he. Because he didn't have a lot of other closeness in his life, because he didn't. Because he didn't have close friends, close community, you know, people that really loved him that he really let in. And there were people that cared deeply about him, but he wasn't kind of in relationship with them in the same way that he could have been. I was really concerned. And I do think that there's. You know, we've heard from lots of our clients, you know, it can be up to the point of, is this woman going to kill herself? Right. If I choose to end this relationship, is she going to survive? Is she going to make it? And, you know what's going to happen? And again, that sense of feeling responsible for for someone, that word caretaking has come up already, and it comes up in a few other shares that I will. That I will get to. But, yeah, if you're in a relationship where it feels like you're caretaking, that's another red flag. That is. That is a sign of codependency. If you feel like. Not that this person's a child, but a little bit of, like, a childlike sense of, I have to. I have to take care of her. Right? She's dependent on me. If I'm not there, no one will be there. You know, she doesn't have anyone else. That. That's gonna. That's gonna be a sign and a signal. So that question of what. What was it like for you to be in a codependent dynamic? We have some answers for that. One man said, it sucked. I felt like I lost my identity and my independence as well as my freedom of choice, just because I had agreed with the person I was with. I realized when they weren't around or after I left them, how much freedom I had back to have my life again and how much I gave up because of them. Another person said, and I think this goes back to what you were saying, Jason, about that sense of safety or that sense of there's a bottom floor. He says, it felt kind of like a trap, but at the same time like a soothing warm blanket to feel safe and ruminate within. Another man said, it was years of trying as hard as I could to make things better, but never being good enough, no matter how hard I tried. And that, I think, is a different kind of dynamic here that we've heard from a lot of our guys. If you are in a relationship where you feel like no matter what you do and no matter how you do it, it's never good enough, and the goalposts are constantly shifting, and one, you know, something that you did right one day, the next day is wrong. That kind of thing. That can be a sign of codependency. It can also be a sign of borderline personality disorder. You should listen to some of our episodes about that. If you are listening to this and you're like, yeah, that's how I feel. I feel like I can never get it right, or sometimes I kind of get it right, but then it's wrong the next day, and it's always changing. You might want to listen to an episode on Borderline. Another man said, so the question was, what was it like for you to be in a codependent dynamic? He said, hell felt crazy. No win what happened to the person I loved. And that really got me right in the heart of what happened to the person I loved. Because there's, I think it's easy in these conversations to forget that there is real love and there is real care in this mix as well. It's not just, you know, family of origin dynamics and I'm just finding someone that's similar wounding. There's also love. There's also love. It's not one or the other. It's a big soupy mix of all the things. And that's so pointing of what happened to the person I love. When you're in a relationship and you're just like, how did I get here? How did we, how did we get here? Like what happened? I don't understand what happened to the person I loved. It just like so personal and yeah, just poignant. Any comments on that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that's an important thing to just stay tuned. Not all relationships start this way. Some do. Like these dynamics are part of what pull a couple together and some are kind of form, you know, through life events or stress where we start to rely on each other and what we had kind of goes away, you know, in a big sense. And you know, I think part of certainly what I've seen in, in men is there's almost always a direct correlation between like our inner belief system about our worth or dignity or value or lovability that shows up in our partner. So. Right. We, we often talk about this as part of why we focus so much with our guys around. You know, we were just talking about this on one of our calls night of you got to know, you know, what makes you a, a lovable solid human being and have contact with that because as you deepen your relationship with that part of yourself, you're going to better attract partners who can do that. And that's one of the things will, you know, that will show up in this kind of codependence of, you know, whether it's self loathing or, or just not believing in ourselves, we'll kind of find a partner who feels that same way about themselves and that has all kinds of then offshoots about the quality of life and what we find is possible and that, you know, it's always a combination of doing the inner work and the outer work. Right. Of some boundary setting, changing our beliefs that it is possible, you know, to shift the dynamics in a relationship. Right. If, if you are missing your partner in that way and you're like, yeah, what happened here? That with particularly Outside support. You can kind of reformat the system, in a sense, and create something new with each other. But it really takes a commitment and it takes a willingness to, you know, really be authentic in a sense, and be willing to speak your truth for what you need. You know, we. We. We've definitely another place we've often seen this showing up for guys is a massive place of growth, is. I need Friday night to myself. Right? I just. I need some space to myself. I love you. I can't wait to see you. But I need some space to myself. And that can feel so threatening to these types of relationships and dynamics where it's, well, if she's not with me or he's me, then they're with nobody. But those small steps sometimes can really start to create that space in the relationship, because, you know, when you take that space, you are, in a sense, creating space for your partner to step into something, to maybe reach out to a friend or try an activity or. Or who knows, to. To see then, okay, is this going to get better? You know, can we transform this or not?

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And the. The authenticity around needs. I, you know, I want to speak also to another one about needing affection, needing physical touch, needing that kind of. That kind of love. Right. There's a certain kind of nutrient around physical touch and affection, and that can be really edgy to name and to ask for and to be with, even in ourselves. You know, we have men of all ages in our program, and sometimes there are men that are like, I've never asked for that in my life, and I'm, you know, in my 60s. Like, there's it. I think something that I found inspiring in our work is that it's really never too late to grow, and it's really never too late to do the work, and it's never too late to see results. I think that. I think there's something exciting about that because, you know, I remember one of our. One of our alumni, he was in his 70s, and I remember him saying, I wish I'd done this decades ago. You know, I see you. You guys in the program in your, you know, 20s and 30s, and he didn't say, I'm jealous, but he's just like, I wish that I'd had access to this, and I wish that I'd done this, you know, decades ago. And, you know, I'm excited about where I'm at, and I'm excited about this decade. And I. I think that there's something really generative about the possibility of growing beyond these dynamics And I want to make that really clear, that there are so many men in our program and so many men that we've worked with who've been incredibly brave and broken family lineage patterns that have probably been in place for hundreds of years. I swear to God. I mean, I think that there are men who come from lineages where their fathers, their grandfathers, their great grandfathers. You know, there was not a lot of space for a healthy emotional dialogue in most of our ancestry. Not all of it, but most of it, much of it. And so even someone in, you know, later in life, you're still breaking patterns. You. You are still doing a service to humanity by growing yourself. I find that to be really inspirational. Like, I believe that when we grow as human beings, we're doing so for ourselves, but we're also doing so for the collective, and we're making it somehow easier. And one thing that I also find inspiring is that what I witnessed in a lot of our clients is that it's like a rock in a pond. The ripples ripple out as they are growing with us. They are impacting others beyond them. So they're impacting their adult children or people at work or, you know, whoever it is. And the more open and transparent they are about their process, the more they're bringing in more people. So you really can't underestimate the impact that you can have as a man who is growing. Right. I think, particularly, you know, for men. I think that there. There's so much stacked against men in terms of growing. There's so much stigma. There's so much. Yeah, there's just so much against you that when you are choosing to grow and open up and become a bigger version of yourself and, you know, end a codependent dynamic, not necessarily end a relationship, but grow beyond a codependent dynamic. Right. Set boundaries, stand up for yourself, invest in yourself, things like that. You're really doing that on behalf of a lot of people, and you. You become a shining example. And I joke sometimes that our program is like the gateway drug for. For consciousness work. We've seen so many clients that. Where we are, you know, some of the first work that they're doing, and then they go on to do all of this other. Other stuff, right? And then they become. Some of them become practitioners and all of that. So I'm quite proud of that because I feel like there's. There's. There need to be lots of on ramps to. To doing the work and to feeling safe doing the work. Right. Because you want to trust your Mentors trust these people that you're sharing your story with, that you're saying, here's what happened in my marriage, or here's what's going on. And we've heard all of them. You know, we've heard a pretty severe abuse dynamics and we really have no judgment like we've heard a lot of. And it's pretty. It can get pretty wild. It can get pretty wild. So I want to read one more what was it like being in the dynamic before we shift? What was it like for you to be in a codependent dynamic? And this man said, incredibly difficult. It wasn't evident at the beginning. She just seemed very affectionate and attentive. But over time, she began becoming very anxious and upset or angry. When I did normal things like spend time with friends or go back to school, these were attacked as being selfish and at the expense of the relationship. Unfortunately, due to my own shortcomings at the time, I didn't realize what was happening and started placating and hiding things as a way to avoid constant confrontations and jealous accusations. To be fair, I could have handled things much better by not avoiding confrontation by lying, but rather face things head on. If I was in the same situation today, I'd without question walk away early on. But I bought into this situation for way too long and felt like I was the major issue. I fell into her trap of dangling some vague path to forgiveness, not realizing that the goal posts would always be moved ahead of me so I could never actually reach them. Any comments on that or from men we worked with?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, we'll, you know, in a different way. We often see kind of a codependency show up off in relationships with borderline partners. Right. Which again, another way to think about it is just there's no boundaries. And that can go a, a lot of different ways in that, you know, on the one side there can be like our episode on a Nice Guys and volatility of a codependent relationship can be one partner is very volatile, more aggressive, more kind of my way or the highway, and the other partner just keeps kind of acquiescing to them. But it can, like I said, it can also look like that, that softer version of just we're both in so much suffering with each other. Right. And outside of you, I don't know what to do. Right. I just like, literally us just surviving together keeps us, you know, keeps us afloat so that there's a. There's a huge range of how this stuff can show up. It can be emotional codependency, it can be, you know, financial codependency. It can be a kind of codependency around the family system and kids. And none of them are, you know, better or worse than any of the others, but they're all incredibly important to be mindful of and to learn. Okay, what have I gotten, you know, what system have I fallen into here? And how, how do I get a temperature check on what's going on? And you know, part of what makes our group so powerful and useful is sometimes men don't know until they get into some community, into some coaching, get to start to bounce this stuff off each other and realize, oh, yeah, you know, there's some pretty intense dynamics here that aren't really giving me space to thrive and in a lot of ways aren't giving my partner space to thrive. Ian, that doesn't mean, okay, I have to eject out of the relationship now. It does mean I need to start trying some things to change the system here. What happens if I do speak to what I need or take space for myself or set a boundary and say, yeah, you know, I, I can't pay for that, I can't cover this, you know, in your life or whatever that might be. And see, you know, can. Can the partner adapt, can the system adapt? And then, you know, there's absolutely some potential for things transforming. But if not, then, you know, you get some pretty clear feedback that, wow, I, I don't think this is going to work for me or for us. And so I'm going to, you know, sometimes need some help in terms of how do I exit that arrangement, you know, taking care of myself and whoever I'm with and the people may be around us in whatever way possible, but knowing that, you know, it's often like once guys get out, sometimes it's often not till they get out, they, that they also realize how intense it actually was. It's like that on the other side, there's finally like a. And we realize how much we had been taking on with our partner, you know, in, in their dysregulation or how just dysfunctional our life got. And that can also be, you know, kind of intense. A lot of grief, a lot of anger, a lot of sometimes anger itself, sometimes anger at other will will pour out of guys. And, you know, we're here for all of it. The important thing here is, you know, we often, we often have talked in the show about, right, and guys get excited about it. This ideal kind of the third stage relationship, the relationship where we've kind of moved on beyond just my needs and, and just exclusively serving your needs. And you know, in my belief system, like it's not possible to have a third stage relationship unless each person is capable of taking care of themselves. So if I'm able to thrive alone in a sense, only then can a third stage relationship really become possible. Meaning we have that freedom of you don't need me to take care of you and I don't need you to take care of me. We have systems and resources around us, but paradoxically, once that need is gone, we can generously gift things to each other from this kind of place of abundance and overflow and, and it allows, you know, this kind of deeper flex, flow, polarity to really come on board. But without that, I don't think it's a third stage relationship in a sense. Right. Because then there is some kind of power dynamic where one person's holding a little bit more power in a situation, whether that's financially or sexually or just self esteem wise. And so I really kind of want to highlight that, that, you know, one of the greatest gifts you can give to your partner is promoting their independence and their well being and supporting them and you know, kind of standing on their own. And then once you both have that kind of solid foundation, so much exceptional, you know, joyful relating becomes possible in a totally different way that I think is still pretty rare these days and isn't easy to necessarily do and isn't even going to be what everyone wants to sign up for. You know, I've been working with a huge range of men recently and you know, it is definitely the case that some men do just want a partner who they make all the money and their partner raises the kids, you know, in that very traditional sense. And that's okay if that's what you're both into. But a lot of the guys we work with, they're kind of aching for more where there's a strong polarity and a strong reciprocity that is, you know, requires a certain type of independence. Right. That real reciprocity of I can give this to you but I know you'll be okay. Even without. It is such a different wavelength that as guys start to experience it sometimes after working with us, it's like, wow, I didn't even know this was possible. I was having a hard time and I asked my partner for something and they supported me. Right. It's just there was no blowback, there was no blow up or vice versa.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's interesting. So I I have some stories here about, you know, I asked, I asked the men, if you did get out of the, the codependent dynamic, how did you do that? Or if you did get out of the relationship, how did you do that? And then I asked, you know, if you've been in a relationship since that was not codependent, how has that been? And there were some interesting stories about the how, how did you get out? One of them was like, I cut contact and drove to the airport. Some of them were kind of drastic, but this one I thought was sort of comprehensive. He said, well, to be honest, it was so hard. I never would have figured out what was happening in the cycle without a therapist. That helped me understand what was happening. At first it actually made me feel hurt, depressed and hopeless. Then question why my self esteem was so low, why was I so hurt? Then I realized I didn't want my children to repeat the cycle or think that this is what love looked like after getting out of the marriage. It took several years of working to understand myself better and experiences in several other dating relationships and looking at why or the motivations behind why I was there in that relationship to better understand the cycle. It took work to understand where the need to be needed started before I could start to truly start to develop the real self esteem I needed. And I'm still working on the skills to set boundaries and learn how to have peace, to really understand how to be happy. But life can be sweet as my children can see my example as I learn to be better. It takes time to have growth. I think that's a good example of it's not easy, but I got a mentor and I did it and now I'm setting a better example for my kids. And that is a large part of why a lot of men come to work with us because they know what I'm doing isn't working and my kids are watching and I don't want them to repeat this, this is not what I want for them. Sometimes it's easier to say this is not what I want for them versus this is not what I want for myself. And then that question, you know, if you've since been in a relationship that was not codependent, how has that been? I asked also sort of what are the notable differences? And when one man said, I'm in a relationship now and although it's relatively new, I'm constantly scanning for red flags but not finding anything significant so far. It's incredibly liberating to be with someone with emotional maturity who is willing to have a productive discussion of any issues and feel like we're both on the same team trying to create the best situation for both of us. I don't feel like I'm constantly being watched or have to monitor everything I say in fear of something being misinterpreted or turned into a huge confrontation. There is a healthy level of mutual admiration and respect, both for each other and the relationship. That feels amazing. And I feel trusted and I'm seen as a good person, which frees up a lot of mental energy that I can use for more productive purposes, including evolving the relationship. And then to wrap it up and put a bow on it. One guy said, just quote, I am in a good relationship, and it is so much easier, so much less dramatic. So I do think that there's something about graduating, right, graduating from this kind of dynamic. And, you know, the. What you said, Jason, about getting into community and having strong relationships outside of. Of the. Of the. Of the love relationship is a prerequisite to a truly healthy relationship. I don't believe that we can have a truly healthy love relationship if we don't have strong, meaningful, intimate relationships outside of that dynam. We need to have both. That's part of what sustains us and part of what helps us to thrive. So, yeah, I'm curious if you can share a little bit on a personal level of your experience getting out of the codependent dynamic that you were in and what life was like after that and what it was like then for you, being with a partner who was growing a different kind of partner.

Jason Lange: Yeah. You know, it's interesting what comes up in this. And as painful as that breakup was, you know, a big part of it was realizing me staying in this dynamic is actually judging that, you know, my ex wasn't capable of more. Like, wasn't worthy of more. Wouldn't be okay without me. Like, you know, in a weird way, it kind of tied into, like, well, that's kind of egotistical to think my partner's not going to be okay if. If I'm not with her. So for me, it was this kind of shift into. This is going to be really hard and really painful, but I trust my partner's going to be okay, like, long term. Like, this is a good person who's going to figure it out, and me staying in this dynamic isn't gonna help her grow in the way to get the love she really wants in the world. And same with me. So in a way, I was. You know, there's a, like, a Taking a stand for more for myself and for her and saying, this isn't gonna work between us, but I trust, you know, we can find this elsewhere in a sense. And you know, like I've said, a lot of it also just came down to getting in my body and feeling the feels of how painful it was. And while it was very safe, the relationship was safe. We were both suffering deeply inside and I was perpetuating that suffering by being unwilling to confront my own fear. Right. And as I stepped into that, like, okay, I don't know what's going to happen. This is going to be really hard. You know, we both got liberated from that dynamic to then choose new ones, you know, whatever that might be. But hopefully with some, some growth included in that journey. And I had to do a lot of growing coming out of that one and got really clear right about. Like I've said before, some of the different things I was looking for in terms of a partner rooted in community and who had resour was part of a, an orientation to this work that yeah, you know, we cannot do it alone as a couple, like just from the get go, you know, we, we are in therapy pretty quick within a year or two, I think. And that's going to be that way for us forever. Right. Our, we got to keep our system big and healthy and we both need to support each other's independence, you know, in a sense that, yeah, go off and do this thing or many times a year I'm going off to lead a retreat or go on retreat myself and my partner supports me in that or taken off for a morning hike and it's amazing, right. I think the other thing, you know, I'm just realizing that kind of goes hand in hand with a co interdependent relationship where we're linked, we're supporting each other, we both have agency. This kind of third stage way is there's a lot of trust, right? There's just a lot more trust that, okay, I can trust that if you need to take care of yourself or step away or trust that. Yeah, I don't know how to help you on that, but I trust you're going to figure it out and if you need my help, you'll let me know. Or trust that if I set a boundary, you're going to know that doesn't mean I don't love you and I'm not passionate about what we're creating. It just means in this moment, this doesn't work for me. And so leaning into that kind of trust has been amazing. And, you know, it's. It's doing the trust fall over and over and over again every time. It's just as vulnerable as the last time. But it creates so much more resiliency in the system. I think that's. That's the other thing. And knowing that, you know, in. In a crazy way too, just that, you know, I hope to live a long life with my partner, but knowing that if something ever happened to me, like, I know she's actually going to be okay, which in a weird way allows me to relax into the moment more instead of having to, like, armor against what might happen. It's like, yeah, it would be painful. And she'll be. She'll be okay. She has the tools. And that's a huge change, you know, from, from some of my previous experiences. So it's definitely possible to, you know, improve your relationship that has some of these tendencies or to exit one that feels like you're completely trapped in. It's. There's no. The other thing I'll share is if it comes to the time and place where you have to really set a boundary and potentially exit codependent relationship, there's never a good time for it. Like, there's always something else, you know, a work conflict or a health challenge or something that makes it so hard because it's not, you know, so many of the guys we work with, they don't want to kick a partner when they're down, so to speak. But life just keeps coming at us. And part of what we have to realize is there's never going to be a great way to do this without it hurting. But even though it hurts to, you know, end to codependent dynamics doesn't mean it's not liberating potentially for both of you in that it doesn't create the possibility of something far more healthy, reciprocal, where you both have agency and connection, and you have connection outside yourselves into a system larger than your relationship that makes it really possible to weather the ups and downs that are going to come at you as a couple no matter what in life. Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: It's interesting listening to you speak, I'm realizing that, you know, the, The. The strongest codependent relationship I was in was with my mother. Definitely not with a romantic partner. And that dynamic that you, you know, spoke to of knowing that she was going to be okay, I vividly remember I was in my 20s and I had a conversation with my mother on the phone, and she. I don't remember what we were talking about, but she got really upset and she hung up on me. And this was. I was moving towards setting boundaries with her, meaning not being in contact anymore. I hadn't done it yet, but that's where I was moving towards. And I remember she hung up on me and she took the phone off the hook. So when I called it, it was a busy signal. And I had this moment of just feeling ice water go down my spine. I just felt myself go cold because I thought, I wonder if she's going to kill herself. I feel like there's a possibility that she's going to kill herself. And then I sort of. This thought immediately arrived for me. And I just want to point out that I was working with mentors and I was doing a lot of personal growth work at the time. So this wasn't a thought out of a vacuum. This thought arrived that said, even if she does, it's still not your fault. Even if she does, it's still not your fault. You are living your life. You are walking your path, you are doing your best, and that is what you are meant to do. And she is on her own path, and she gets to make her own choices. And there are going to be partners, whether they are relatives or, you know, love partners. And they might not choose to grow. They might choose to not grow. And you don't have control over that. You do not have control over that. You can only do you. You can only do you. So do you, you know, get into a CODA group? CODA is Codependence Anonymous. That can sometimes be helpful. Work with mentors like me and Jason. Get a therapist, Find a workshop.

Jason Lange: You.

Melanie Curtin: You do you. And let them do them and, and develop your community so that you do have people like me speaking in your ear saying, and even if they do, it's not your fault. They are walking their path and you are walking your path. Because we, we can't always hold that position for ourselves. Which is why I keep emphasizing, get mentors, get into community, find other voices that will help you. When you're falling back into that trap of, it's my fault, it's me, it's all my responsibility. If I don't take care of her, who will? All of that. You want to have other voices in your world that are saying, it's not your responsibility. It was never your responsibility to take care of mom or dad. That's not your responsibility. And you're meant to graduate from that dynamic now. And you can do it. You can do this. You've got this, and it's going to be okay. So that's where I would like to wrap. Do you have any last comments? And also if you want to do some in person work with us, the retreat is coming up. Maybe you can touch on that. Jason?

Jason Lange: Yeah, just that it's possible. There's no better time than now. It can be a great gift to you and the people around you to just face these dynamics head on and get some clarity about what needs to happen in your life. Too many men, you know, I've talked to and worked with stay in a place of perpetual suffering because they fear, you know, they're in this code dependent dynamic and fear being alone or fear what will happen with their partner. And you don't deserve to live that way. You know, that's the honest truth. You don't deserve to live that way. And there, there is something else totally radical that's possible, that will feel radical, but once you're in, it feels like, oh, this is the way kind of should be. And we're here to help. We're here to help through our program. And absolutely, if you want to really hit the jumper cables, come work with us over our Labor Day retreat in Northern California. It's four and a half days long and you're going to get deeply connected to some other men. You're going to move a tremendous amount of energy through your nervous system, release lots of things emotionally, get connected in nature, eat, greet food, hang out and have fun with us. And in a big sense, discover who you are so you can feel that part of yourself that will be okay. That will be okay no matter what.

Melanie Curtin: Inspiring. So if you're interested in our work, you can go to Evolutionary Men Apply and Evolutionary Men will also give you retreat info.