309: How do you know when it’s time to get a divorce? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: You know, many guys we've worked with, I think, have shared from both sides of, you know, having had parents that finally split up or having finally split up. And you're, you're right. The, the clarity of. Okay, now I know where things stand can actually be deeply regulating for kids.

Melanie Curtin: Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode. Always good to have you on with us. Jason. Thank you for being here.

Jason Lange: Excited to be back.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think this points to, you know, some of what we talked about in the should I stay or should I go for the kids episode that what, whatever you're committed to has an impact. So if you're committed to, I'm going to stay together for the kids, but part of that commitment means I'm going to be in a loveless, sexless marriage that still has an impact. You're committed to something there. And part of what we're asking is what you know, to become clear about what are you committed to and why and what's the impact of that? Because our kids, you know, they're, even if they don't cognitively, consciously know it, their nervous systems pick up so much. And as I like to say, you know, the couple at the center, you know, of a family, particularly when there's kids, that's like the canary in the coal mine. Their connection kind of sets the energetic tone for the connection of the whole family. I truly believe that. And that includes, you know, their sexual connection. Like when, when there is a vibrant, passionate connection, the whole system gets lit up. I've just seen it time and time in myself included. And many men we've worked with, they stayed together, they had parents that stayed together or they had the stability, but something else was missing. And that something else that was missing then becomes a different kind of issue the kids have to work through in the future because they keep finding themselves in relationships that have no juice or, or where they're just friends or, you know, the, the different things. So part of what we're saying here is your relationship as it is is already having an impact on your kids, on their nervous systems, on their well being, and your willingness as the man to start to really take a look at that and, and, and realize, well, what. What is it I want to transmit to my children is so important. And when parents aren't connected, that shows, you know, this isn't the only reason. But that will show up as behavioral problems in kids. It totally will, because they're feeling that instability. And so oftentimes that energy comes out in some kind of dysregulation. And the, you know, many guys we've worked with, I think, have shared from both sides of, you know, having had parents that finally split up or having finally split up. And you're right, the clarity of, okay, now I know where things stand can actually be deeply regulating for kids. Because the other thing is, you know, kids are noticing our disconnections, let's say, or our tensions. But if we're not speaking to them, that is extremely dysregulating to their sense of trust, of their own perception. Like, is. Is. What is. Are things okay? Because they're not saying anything. But I don't know, I have this feeling in my body that things aren't okay. And the moment parents can say, you may have noticed mom and I haven't been as connected lately, and I imagine that's been a little confusing for you, or you may notice we've been acting differently. That's actually a huge gift to your kids for them to realize, okay, I'm not crazy. I noticed this. Even young kids, like, they will pick up on this stuff. So again, what we're. What we're saying here is we're asking you to get clarity and to even start to turn attention to that because it is already impacting things.

Melanie Curtin: And again, I just want to clarify that many men reported healthier, stronger connections with their children and noticing their children thriving actually more after a divorce or. Or after reconnection. Right. Either way. But the. Yeah. Addressing what's actually going on, being with and facing and. And moving towards addressing what's going on is regulating, like you said. And I think that's why, you know, that happy families, man, that shared. There's something creepy about that about, like, we're not really connected, but we're not going to talk about it. We're just going to pretend everything's fine. That, I think, is one of the most challenging households to be in, rather than it's sort of like passive aggression versus open aggression. With open aggression, at least you know what's going on. With passive aggression, you're like, I don't know, maybe. Maybe they're fine, but the way they're putting the dishes away makes it feel like we're not fine. And there's something scary about that. There's something disorienting about not knowing what's happening. Let's hear from a few other men about when they knew it was time to. This man said, my situation is likely different than many as it was a very abusive, toxic situation for me. I finally did it after it was obvious it was no longer a healthy situation for my kids and me and there was no sign of it changing. So again, there's that. There's that hopeless quality of I don't think this is ever going to be different. This man said, I knew it was time because I'd been unhappy for so incredibly long. I was sleeping on the couch almost every night, making no effort to connect otherwise. I got into hiking partly because it gave me something to do without her, but without it being obvious I was choosing to be away from our house on the weekends. Sex was non existent and had been for years. I gotten us into therapy and she wasn't committing to our agreements for ways to improve our marriage. And I gave up asking her to hold up her end of the bargain, specifically asking her to initiate activities, sex and date nights so that it wasn't always my responsibility to lead and constantly be rejected, to be honest. And I think that that share really caught my attention because we do hear from so many men and I just want to extend compassion. If you're a man in this situation of just. I feel like I'm always the one reaching out. I feel like I'm always the one initiating. And not just. I'm not just talking about sex, but initiating connection, initiating contact, initiating. Let's read this book together. Let's try this out. Let's go to counseling, let's do a date night, let's have sex, let's connect. And we hear from a lot of. A lot of the men that we work with of. Of either past relationships or in a current relationship. Just the tiring quality of feeling like I'm always the one extending bids for connection and I'm not getting anything back. So I just. I want to really. Yeah. Extend a lot of compassion to that experience because we hear it a lot and it's such a tough place to be when you just feel like I'm always giving and I'm never getting anything back. And in. I would say in my experience that is often a pattern that is repeating itself from. From childhood and can be addressed. And you don't have to stay in that dynamic. You don't have to stay in that dynamic with this person. Things can shift. We've witnessed lots of men make the, the changes and, and grow in certain ways so that that doesn't keep repeating itself, but that pattern doesn't keep repeating itself. Any comments on that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, there's a, you know, sometimes a game changing moment of particularly I think as men as we work with them, when they actually start to speak towards what is and stop pretending and actually, hey, we're really disconnected right now. This isn't working, is it? There's like a. The honesty starts to come in. And often once that honesty starts to come in, connection starts to come back. Right. But a lot of guys we work with are afraid of that answer or afraid to acknowledge the truth. And so there's a way we can kind of stay in that nebulous zone for a long time. But the, the willingness to kind of open that dialogue and get real, that's always the first step. It's always the first step in it can be painful. Right. Because then often we have to actually feel how disconnected with our partners we've been, let's say. But nothing's really possible until you're willing to go there, in my opinion.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And this is another response that kind of touched on that exhaustion concept. He said, I knew it was time when I took her to the doctor to get some medical attention and she refused to take the antibiotics. How can I help you when you refuse to help yourself? Also when she started saying horrible things about my family and I finally stood up and told her to stop saying those awful things. Also when she destroyed memorabilia in my office and broke items all over the house and then blamed me and told me to clean up the mess. That was another sign when she stopped caring about herself and said it was my job to take care of her after she had done so much for me, even though I was the one who worked full time, cooked, cleaned up the house after dinner and took care of everything, I realized it was not a partnership anymore and someone needed to make a change. I really that that that phrase it was not a partnership anymore was really stood out to me. And then similar to what we were just talking about, about children, this man said, you have to decide what is in the best interest of your children. I stayed in the marriage for seven years thinking I was protecting them. But what relationship did I model for them? What lessons did they learn? Kids need positive role models. So the second you know the marriage is not for you, it is time to go. You're not doing them any favors. And again, I think that, you know, the second you know the marriage isn't for you, part of this whole conversation is how do you gain the clarity of that? How do you know you might have a sense and you want to be sure because this is a pretty big, drastic, life changing decision. And that's again where you're only going to get so far trying to figure it out yourself. So part of what a lot of the men talked about in the next section and what we're suggesting is get some help, bring in some outside resources, gain some more perspectives, start talking to people that you trust, start talking to mentors. You know, be, be open, be open to guidance because you, you need some help. You need some help to gain clarity around this. This is not a, a one size fits all, yes or no, easy to determine question. It is.

Jason Lange: You know, one more thing that just comes up around the exhaustion. There's another lens I just want to put out there of kind of some of the, I don't know, I guess waypoints we may, we, we hopefully kind of guide men towards noticing is one of the areas we'll often feel so exhausted as men. Where we start to kind of feel hopeless and give up is when there's no reciprocity. Right. When we don't feel there's an energetic exchange of sometimes I'm generous and I bring something forward. Sometimes she's generous and she brings something forward. If the experience we're having is I am just trying to put out the energy and lead or all the time and I'm not getting anything back, it's it. We get into a lot of pain and it's very exhausting. But one thing we've seen with men is like, we will gladly take on responsibility and lead when we're getting some energetic nourishment back in exchange. Even if it's just simple appreciation. Right. For. Wow. I, you know, I'm still kind of pissed at you because of what you did yesterday, but I just wanted to appreciate. I really, it really meant a lot to me that you came and tried to apologize. Even something as simple as that, like when a partner can step into that, then it's like, okay, there's like, we're in a process now. We're in a back and forth a dynamic. But some men, what they discover is no matter what I'm bringing forward, I'm not getting anything back. And that becomes the kind of the unwinnable situation.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'll just end with, sometimes the greatest act of leadership can be no longer tolerating mediocrity. I mean, right. I've said this before, but I've been shocked in all the calls I've done. You know, we tend to work with this population so that, you know, these are the guys I hear from. But it is pretty shocking how easy it can be for people to fall into a relationship where their relationship is one of the major sources of stress in their life, meaning it is actually creating more stress in life, their intimate relationship. And I am strongly in the camp that as challenging as relationship should be, the purpose of it is to be a resource so you and your partner can be resourced against the stresses of the already very challenging world. And sometimes the most loving thing to say is, I'm sorry I let us here and I let it get this bad. I'm no longer willing to tolerate this level of disconnection or dysfunction in our family and our relationship. I don't know what that means, but we need to make a change. I'm getting help. I'm getting support, and that's where I feel like I can start. How does that feel for you?

Melanie Curtin: That was great. That was. That was really powerful. I. I mean, I felt myself, like, want to follow your lead. Right. I'm leaning in. I'm listening. I'm, you know. Yeah. The raw, real truth. The raw, real truth. That's really what we're talking about. So if you have listened to this and you feel inspired to work with us, you can always book a call. Just go to Evolutionary Men Slash Apply, and we will catch you next time. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.