309: How do you know when it’s time to get a divorce? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: You know, many guys we've worked with, I think, have shared from both sides of, you know, having had parents that finally split up or having finally split up. And you're, you're right. The, the clarity of. Okay, now I know where things stand can actually be deeply regulating for kids.

Melanie Curtin: Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode. Always good to have you on with us. Jason. Thank you for being here.

Jason Lange: Excited to be back.

Melanie Curtin: So, today we are talking about how do you know when it's time to get a divorce? How do you really know? And this is an episode inspired, ripped from the headlines, inspired by a lot of the men that we work with. We have had many clients come to us who aren't sure. They are in the process of trying to determine what should I do about my marriage. I'm not sure if it's time to talk about divorce and move towards that or if it's time to stick it out and work on myself and for us to work on the partnership together. And so I guess I just want to say up front that wherever you are in the process is okay. So if you are divorce questioning, not quite sure that's okay. If you're pretty sure that you want that, that's okay. And we're also going to talk about if your spouse, if your wife has brought up divorce and you're in. In that process as well, that's also okay. And we have pulled a lot of our clients, which we're going to bring in their voices, their perspectives into this episode. So whether you are the one thinking about it or the one where your spouse has come to you about this and you're not sure how it's all going to work out, what's going to happen, know that you are welcome here and your voice is important and hopefully will be reflected in some of the shares that we're going to be talking about today. So, yeah, I'm curious to hear sort of about, you know, because also, Jason, you've done now hundreds to thousands of calls with men, and you've heard a lot of different stories. So I'm curious for you what, what comes up for you when you hear a man wondering, you know, how do I know when it's time?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'd say the. The first thing that comes up is how challenging a decision it is and how it ties into some of the many issues we see show up for men, which are that it's very easy for men to fall into a place of isolation in life. And what I mean by that is a lot of guys will get into Relationships start. Families disconnect, you know, not with malice or anything, but sometimes from friends and passions and hobbies, and they'll kind of lose touch with some outside perspectives or voices. And the way we work as human beings is our, our body, mind is incredible at normalizing anything, just taking our reality, figuring it out, normalizing it. So one of the big challenges a lot of men have is just like we do often with our family life growing up, we get into a relationship and pretty quickly it's just, this is kind of the way it is. And at some point, maybe some, some, some light starts to come through the cracks and we're like, wait, is it what I think it is? And so men often turn to podcasts and information like this first when they start to have this intuition. I, I don't know, is this the way it should be? Is there something else possible? And that's part of what we want to cover today is just kind of walk through some of the different signs and steps and things that guys go through as they make this decision, which is not one we take lightly. Right. I think one of the shared values you and I have that comes through the podcast in our work is good relationships, power, good families, whether that's blood, family, friend family, communal family. And that's one of the fastest ways to transform the world. So, you know, the idea of breaking up a family is not something we take lightly. But that isn't as simple as, well, just stay together and the family's going to be stronger. We've talked about that before. That is not always the case. So this puts men in often a pretty heavy bind of they do not know, is it me? Is it them? And what I talk to a lot of guys about, you know, we work with a huge range of men, but a lot of them are in relationships or marriage. And coming in with this question is, every relationship is co created. It's not, not possible for it to just be one person's fault all of the time, in my opinion. And what's important about that is the trick here is guys can come to us, let's say, or whoever they're going to work with, do the work, step in, take full responsibility for here's how I'm contributing to the dysfunction of this relationship can become the most present, integrated, grounded, third stage man in the world, and it still requires a partner who's willing to step in and meet them. So part of our orientation in the work we guide men through is let's at least get to that as close as we can. Let's get as close as we can to that point where you feel like, and, you know, in your bones. I have showed up in all my vulnerability, in all my strength, totally willing to take responsibility for the ways I partake and fuel our dysfunction. And then at that point, if I am showing up in that way in some kind of sustained fashion and things still aren't changing, well, then there's a decision to be made. And that's where, you know, we'll then work with guys on that next, next step. So, yeah, a lot I just offered there, but we'll start there.

Melanie Curtin: Well, part of what I appreciate about what you're saying is understanding your role and your side in the dynamic doesn't mean it's your fault. Exactly. So I just want to distinguish between role and fault. And so I'm thinking of, you know, a very poignant moment I had with a client recently was he said, yeah, I listened to one of your episodes about borderline personality disorder and the, I think it was the episode about polarity. Right. Who does? Who does? And when I say polarity, in this instance, I'm talking about what does this kind of person tend to attract? Who does this kind of kind of person tend to attract? So there was an episode about, do nice guys attract volatile women? And this client listened to that episode and said, I actually, for the first time, felt a sense of hope because I got a sense of what my part was and how I could develop myself in the future to not attract that kind of partner again, that it wasn't random, it wasn't just something that was going to happen to me again, but there were steps that I could take in ways that I could, you know, grow. And I like to use the word grow instead of the word change. Right. They say people can't change. And I, I, I hesitate to use the word change. More like grow. And you can grow in a certain way. And boundaries can still be challenging for you. I, I still find boundaries challenging. I still have to gird myself. I'm, I'm not perfect at it, and I can do it. I, I know where I stand, and I'm able to talk to people I love and figure out why something feels icky or off. And then I'm able to lead a conversation around it. Right. There's, there's a lot of choice that I have now that I didn't have when I was younger and didn't have boundaries. Everything, it felt like things just happened to me and I didn't have a lot of power over things. In my life or relationships or I felt my stomach and knots a lot because it was like, oh, they. If they get mad at me, what's going to happen? Rather than, I'm a person here too. So, yeah, I appreciate that part about what is mine and what is theirs. And I think that speaks directly to something that we will be touching on. I would say in a number of times in this episode, which comes up a lot in the comments of the men that you're going to hear from, which is. Which is getting outside perspective. Getting outside perspective. Not trying to figure it all out alone, but really talking to loved ones, friends and family, relationship therapists, individual therapists, mentors like us, men's groups, places where you are going to be able to gain some wisdom and get some clarity because it is a process. You know, you're trying to figure it out. If you're listening to this, you're probably in a place where you're trying to figure it out. And trying to figure out. Trying to figure it out alone is lonely and less than effective most of the time. Especially when something's thorny and involves and is complex. I guess that's really the word that I want to say is this is a complex subject. It involves more than just any one thing. It's a multitude of things, including children. And I think it's really interesting and aligns well that this episode comes on the heels of the episode about should, Should. Should we stay together for the kids? Should I stay with this person for the kids? And that you're going to hear that in the shares of the men that we're going to hear from today, that in actuality, a lot of them, the kids, were actually why they chose to separate and divorce was, wow, I'm not role modeling what I would want for my children. And that's a problem. And so sometimes we can also. Our love for our children. Love for children can be a driver behind choosing to let go of something that isn't working. And I would also say, you know, upfront, I, I've said this before, but we, we are not advocating for divorce all the time. This is not like everybody should get divorced. And I'm. I'm hesitant to title this episode the way that I did that. That was a hesitation I had because I really believe that sometimes that's not the best option. Right. Sometimes it's like, no, yeah, there's. There's a lot here to be worked with. And both people are working, and we've worked with a number of men like that as well. Right. They've come in, they've not been sure, and they've gotten coaching and they've gone back and they've actually improved the relationship significantly. And that has been their relationships. Their marriages are now stronger, more with more transparency, more love, more intimacy, more space for each other, more stability, emotional stability in the relationship. So it's not either one or the other. It's a complex situation that involves a lot of factors. And that's part of why it's helpful to get outside counsel from different places, from skilled people who care, because it's not always possible for you to figure it all out alone. I'm wondering if you have any examples of that, brief examples of that from your life, of something you were trying really hard to figure out alone and then you got some outside help and it made a difference.

Jason Lange: This is one of the examples I often actually use as to why I think men's groups are so invaluable in a sense. And it's the. It's the. Particularly with people that know us and trust us, whether that's therapist, a men's group coach, deep friends, whatever, they can often see and feel our wounding and reactivity before we can. Right. And this is just. This is just the way the shadow often works. And so where I see this often show up and kind of be useful in relationships is, you know, and I've had this in my own life and I've absolutely facilitated with other men, have no man comes in or I come in and there's some issue in the relationship, and I kind of. I'm a little pissy or mad at my partner, and I kind of want to blame them and, you know, but the guys know me. They know my history, they know my patterns. Maybe they've known some of my previous relationships. And. And pretty quickly they, you know, they. They start to dial into and hey, wow. And you notice maybe this is more about you than her. Like, have you asked for what you want or have you mentioned this? Or, you know, different things where they just basically guide it to. Maybe it's not about your partner, maybe it's about you in the way you're showing up. And many times that's changed my orientation on something or I've seen it. It change the orientation for men in a group, and it's where that outside perspective can be. So Val. Um. Because usually it's pretty quick that a group can kind of constellate around. Oh, that's a. Yeah, no, that definitely sounds like a red flag the way that your partner's treating you or some of the habitual patterns that have been showing up or. No, you know, I got. I gotta say, honestly, it sounds hard and sounds like you have a partner who's really trying and willing to work that. So to me, that's like a green light. Yeah. You know, give this a go. And that's just one of the invaluable things, you know, I've seen in this so much, is just that outside perspective coming in and helping us see things in a fresh light and just get some grander perspective. And, you know, for us, in a sense, we've just worked with so many men and seen so many patterns that, you know, we kind of have a bigger collective field, but even a smaller group or small friends can often highlight these things pretty fast and help us start to determine. Okay. Because, you know, sometimes the truth is, sometimes we do have guys come in and. And they're like, you know, they've heard some of the episodes we've done, and they're like, yeah, I feel like my partner, you know, it's probably not going to work. Da, da, da, da. And what they haven't done yet is really acknowledged and taken responsibility for their side that. Well, you know, not to be too crass, but, you know, maybe she doesn't want to fuck you because you're not doing anything around the house, and she's exhausted at the end of the day, and the only time you're coming towards her is when you want to have sex. Yeah, I'm just kind of making up a, you know, a collective pattern here that I've sometimes noticed and sometimes participated in myself, you know, out myself here a little bit. And that's a big shift to. Well, first, before we decide we got to eject because this is a sexless marriage, what would it mean for you to step in, take some of that burden and responsibility, support your partner's nervous system so they have some time to recharge and get into space and. And see, you know, is there then any intimacy that can come back online? We can't answer that question for you until you've done your work on that part. And sometimes that tilts to, oh, wow, no, my partner. Right. It was different. Right. It really was different. And she's showing up. She's bringing me energy back in a different way. And sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's like, yeah, she. It's just. She's still. She's close to me in that way. And that's really important information and data to then help you navigate this decision moving forward. But so it's a very nuanced thing. And it's where this. The outside perspective is so important. So, so important. I just can't tell you how few men sometimes talk about this stuff. They just keep their. Because if their relationship isn't perfect, it becomes a source of shame. So they don't want to share it with anyone in their community or their friends or whatever that might be. And, you know, last thing I'll say share is the unique thing about kind of working with someone like us is. Or a different kind of group is we're not connected to your community. So the other thing I've noticed is I literally had a call recently where someone was like, yeah, I do have some deep friends, but they're shared friends, right? They're friends with my spouse that we're. We're woven together. So I feel challenged coming forward with. I'm really struggling with this thing with my wife, and she's driving me nuts. We actually have the benefit of not being collected or connected in that local sense. So, like, there's. It's a safer space in some. In some reality. Some. In some sense in that. Whether that's a coach, therapist, group, whatever. It's really important to get that kind of objective perspective in a sense.

Melanie Curtin: One of the things sharing has to do with polarity and reestablishing polarizing a relationship. And we've worked with a number of men where they've said things like, I wish that I'd known this. I mean, we work with a lot of men who say, I wish that I'd known this earlier. I wish that. I wish I'd been educated. I wish I'd worked on. Done this work years and years and years ago. But I think some of the most heartbreaking feedback we've gotten is I think my marriage might not have failed if. If I'd known this. If I'd been aware of. Of this and done this work. And so I think there is something that you should know as. As a man, if you're listening to this, which is it is possible to repolarize a relationship. It is. There's no. It's not hopeless if you have a willing partner. If you have a willing partner. And there's a lot in the responses that I want to start to get into now around. Around that exact subject of, am I with a partner who's willing to do this with me? Am I with a partner who's willing to grow and lean in and work on this and be uncomfortable, get uncomfortable right do the hard stuff. And that's only a question that you and your partner can answer. There's no one else that can do that for you but you. We can help lead and guide you through the questions, the ways to relate to. See, you know, does this partner respond? It's a little bit like playing tennis or some other thing where you. You serve over the net and you see, does the. Does the ball come back if you're not serving right? If you're just standing there and you're not serving the ball over, if you're not doing your part of asking for what you need, you know, suggesting things, leading with vulnerability, doing your part. You can't see if the ball comes back. You can't see if the ball comes back if you're not serving the ball. So you got to learn how to serve the ball, and then you got to see if the ball's coming back. So there's. There's more than one step to it. So I want to start to share some of these, you know, questions I asked, which. The first one was, if you were the one to initiate the divorce, how did you know it was time? And so we're going to also get into the. If your spouse was the one to initiate the divorce, or, you know, if that's where you. If that's where you are. And if you're listening to this and your spouse has. Has asked you for a divorce or has mentioned that word, and you're kind of in the space of, I don't know if that's what I want. And this is something coming towards me. We're going to go over both of those. So first, if you were the one to initiate, how did you know it was time? One man said it was time. When I felt no hope in the ability to live a full life. I felt deep resignation. And that was a word that came up a few times, was hope. This man said, I reached the point where I was hopeless, that change was possible within the confines of the marriage. My wife wanted to stay together, but wouldn't really acknowledge that I had needs or that trying to meet them was worthwhile. I'd been telling myself for years that I would stay until my youngest child left for college. But when he was in eighth grade, I realized I couldn't wait for or five more years. I had an affair, which in effect, reminded me that it was possible to feel happiness and excitement in a relationship. And I wasn't prepared to wait another four or five years to have that in my life again. And then this Other man said sort of what I was pointing to earlier in a different way. He said, I knew it was time because I had made reasonable efforts to be sure for myself that the marriage was no longer viable. I could feel the need for growth and change while my partner was unwilling or uncle. Unwilling to. Or incapable of growing with me. Curious if you have any thoughts on those.

Jason Lange: We talk a lot about growth oriented relationships and a lot is possible when both partners step into that orientation. Right? Just that we need to grow here. And I think you and I have talked about it before, but really each person has to be willing to grow individually, do the work on their own and do the work together as a couple. If one person is not willing to step into the growth, take responsibility, do some healing work. There's not much you can do. Right. And that is, that is a place men working with us have discovered. I've stepped in, I'm getting help, I'm getting resourced, I'm trying to change. And I keep inviting my partner into that. And there she's just unwilling, she's unwilling to, to go deeper, to, to, to get support, to get some healing. And the, the, the pain. Some of the men we've worked with feel of being stuck there. Just like stuck. I just, I don't know what to do. And they feel frozen there. But it's quite brutal. And men will often stay with that for a long time for the kids or whatever. But when that realization really hits of, wow, there's, there's actually nothing I can do because I have showed up, I am taking responsibility, I am getting support, I am growing, doing therapy, I'm doing my things, showing up for her, and she just won't take responsibility. That's a, that to us, that's one of the clearest markers of okay, something probably needs to change here.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And I, I'm going to read a few more that sort of touch on what you just said, which is one, one thing that seemed to come through was even talking about it gets shut down. So this man said, I knew it was time because the more I leaned into communicating my needs, things like needing more connection, compliments, intimacy, the more she distanced herself from me. I was doing all of the work to try and make things work. I read so many books to understand what was happening to us and her contribution was to come home grumpy and Archie Bunker down in front of Netflix. And then this other man similarly said, I waited far too long. I waited years and years, quote, for the kids, but it was time. When the Communication just failed. Obtuse or direct, gentle or severe, calm or passionate. On her terms or mine. She wasn't just an avoidant, but a hardwired stonewaller. Don't talk about anything truly important at all costs. But she hid her non communication not behind the obvious veil of silence, but behind a fairly constant stream of superficial, in main happy families type administrative conversation. Personal growth was non existent and unwelcome. I knew it was time years before I got the courage to actually leave. And a key point of gaining that courage was understanding that my kids would be better off for me leaving than staying. So this was one of those responses that was, this was one of many responses I got that said something to the effect of I waited years. I waited many more years than I should have or needed to. And I think that is, there is a fundamental human truth that it takes as long as it takes, right? That growth takes as long as it takes. And there's also a fundamental truth that you can speed up the process of gaining clarity by bringing in outside people. You can speed up the process of gaining clarity by bringing in the right mentors and the right support. So not necessarily, you know, speeding up what's going to happen, but speeding up your decision and choice and knowledge and yeah, just sense of clarity of what is the right thing to do here. Because to your point, Jason. No, I'm, I'm thinking of a client that we worked with where he was really unsure when he came in. He wasn't sure if he wanted to stay. If he didn't, his wife had been the one to bring it up. And as he was doing his growth work, he was able to see what was happening in the dynamic a lot more clearly. And he was able to see how his wife was showing up as a partner and also as a mom. And there were certain challenges there that became a lot more obvious. If he hadn't been doing that growth work and he hadn't had the sort of guidance around the situation, I think it would have taken a lot longer and I think it would have been a lot more messy. And I think that in that process of uncertainty, the kids would have felt that, they would have felt that uncertainty. That, that limbo place, even if you're not talking about it, it's still in the room, right? It's still, it's still something that is happening. And so I think there's also something to be said for coming to clarity and understanding what, what is going to happen for the children as well, for the whole family system, because that that uncertainty place is, is very hard for human beings to, to, to be with. Uncertainty is one of the most challenging places for a human to sit. And it's I, I, arguably even worse. When you are a child and you are powerless to do anything about it, right, it's like you can sense that there's something wrong or there's something off, but you can't, you don't have any real power over the situation. You don't have a lot of choices. So sometimes acting out is your only choice. There's no other place for it to go because you're not even really cognitively aware. Especially if you're under 10, you don't really, you can't speak to it. Exactly. It's more like a feeling. I'm curious if you have any, any thoughts on that.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think this points to, you know, some of what we talked about in the should I stay or should I go for the kids episode that what, whatever you're committed to has an impact. So if you're committed to, I'm going to stay together for the kids, but part of that commitment means I'm going to be in a loveless, sexless marriage that still has an impact. You're committed to something there. And part of what we're asking is what you know, to become clear about what are you committed to and why and what's the impact of that? Because our kids, you know, they're, even if they don't cognitively, consciously know it, their nervous systems pick up so much. And as I like to say, you know, the couple at the center, you know, of a family, particularly when there's kids, that's like the canary in the coal mine. Their connection kind of sets the energetic tone for the connection of the whole family. I truly believe that. And that includes, you know, their sexual connection. Like when, when there is a vibrant, passionate connection, the whole system gets lit up. I've just seen it time and time in myself included. And many men we've worked with, they stayed together, they had parents that stayed together or they had the stability, but something else was missing. And that something else that was missing then becomes a different kind of issue the kids have to work through in the future because they keep finding themselves in relationships that have no juice or, or where they're just friends or, you know, the, the different things. So part of what we're saying here is your relationship as it is is already having an impact on your kids, on their nervous systems, on their well being, and your willingness as the man to start to really take a look at that and, and, and realize, well, what. What is it I want to transmit to my children is so important. And when parents aren't connected, that shows, you know, this isn't the only reason. But that will show up as behavioral problems in kids. It totally will, because they're feeling that instability. And so oftentimes that energy comes out in some kind of dysregulation. And the, you know, many guys we've worked with, I think, have shared from both sides of, you know, having had parents that finally split up or having finally split up. And you're right, the clarity of, okay, now I know where things stand can actually be deeply regulating for kids. Because the other thing is, you know, kids are noticing our disconnections, let's say, or our tensions. But if we're not speaking to them, that is extremely dysregulating to their sense of trust, of their own perception. Like, is. Is. What is. Are things okay? Because they're not saying anything. But I don't know, I have this feeling in my body that things aren't okay. And the moment parents can say, you may have noticed mom and I haven't been as connected lately, and I imagine that's been a little confusing for you, or you may notice we've been acting differently. That's actually a huge gift to your kids for them to realize, okay, I'm not crazy. I noticed this. Even young kids, like, they will pick up on this stuff. So again, what we're. What we're saying here is we're asking you to get clarity and to even start to turn attention to that because it is already impacting things.

Melanie Curtin: And again, I just want to clarify that many men reported healthier, stronger connections with their children and noticing their children thriving actually more after a divorce or. Or after reconnection. Right. Either way. But the. Yeah. Addressing what's actually going on, being with and facing and. And moving towards addressing what's going on is regulating, like you said. And I think that's why, you know, that happy families, man, that shared. There's something creepy about that about, like, we're not really connected, but we're not going to talk about it. We're just going to pretend everything's fine. That, I think, is one of the most challenging households to be in, rather than it's sort of like passive aggression versus open aggression. With open aggression, at least you know what's going on. With passive aggression, you're like, I don't know, maybe. Maybe they're fine, but the way they're putting the dishes away makes it feel like we're not fine. And there's something scary about that. There's something disorienting about not knowing what's happening. Let's hear from a few other men about when they knew it was time to. This man said, my situation is likely different than many as it was a very abusive, toxic situation for me. I finally did it after it was obvious it was no longer a healthy situation for my kids and me and there was no sign of it changing. So again, there's that. There's that hopeless quality of I don't think this is ever going to be different. This man said, I knew it was time because I'd been unhappy for so incredibly long. I was sleeping on the couch almost every night, making no effort to connect otherwise. I got into hiking partly because it gave me something to do without her, but without it being obvious I was choosing to be away from our house on the weekends. Sex was non existent and had been for years. I gotten us into therapy and she wasn't committing to our agreements for ways to improve our marriage. And I gave up asking her to hold up her end of the bargain, specifically asking her to initiate activities, sex and date nights so that it wasn't always my responsibility to lead and constantly be rejected, to be honest. And I think that that share really caught my attention because we do hear from so many men and I just want to extend compassion. If you're a man in this situation of just. I feel like I'm always the one reaching out. I feel like I'm always the one initiating. And not just. I'm not just talking about sex, but initiating connection, initiating contact, initiating. Let's read this book together. Let's try this out. Let's go to counseling, let's do a date night, let's have sex, let's connect. And we hear from a lot of. A lot of the men that we work with of. Of either past relationships or in a current relationship. Just the tiring quality of feeling like I'm always the one extending bids for connection and I'm not getting anything back. So I just. I want to really. Yeah. Extend a lot of compassion to that experience because we hear it a lot and it's such a tough place to be when you just feel like I'm always giving and I'm never getting anything back. And in. I would say in my experience that is often a pattern that is repeating itself from. From childhood and can be addressed. And you don't have to stay in that dynamic. You don't have to stay in that dynamic with this person. Things can shift. We've witnessed lots of men make the, the changes and, and grow in certain ways so that that doesn't keep repeating itself, but that pattern doesn't keep repeating itself. Any comments on that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, there's a, you know, sometimes a game changing moment of particularly I think as men as we work with them, when they actually start to speak towards what is and stop pretending and actually, hey, we're really disconnected right now. This isn't working, is it? There's like a. The honesty starts to come in. And often once that honesty starts to come in, connection starts to come back. Right. But a lot of guys we work with are afraid of that answer or afraid to acknowledge the truth. And so there's a way we can kind of stay in that nebulous zone for a long time. But the, the willingness to kind of open that dialogue and get real, that's always the first step. It's always the first step in it can be painful. Right. Because then often we have to actually feel how disconnected with our partners we've been, let's say. But nothing's really possible until you're willing to go there, in my opinion.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And this is another response that kind of touched on that exhaustion concept. He said, I knew it was time when I took her to the doctor to get some medical attention and she refused to take the antibiotics. How can I help you when you refuse to help yourself? Also when she started saying horrible things about my family and I finally stood up and told her to stop saying those awful things. Also when she destroyed memorabilia in my office and broke items all over the house and then blamed me and told me to clean up the mess. That was another sign when she stopped caring about herself and said it was my job to take care of her after she had done so much for me, even though I was the one who worked full time, cooked, cleaned up the house after dinner and took care of everything, I realized it was not a partnership anymore and someone needed to make a change. I really that that that phrase it was not a partnership anymore was really stood out to me. And then similar to what we were just talking about, about children, this man said, you have to decide what is in the best interest of your children. I stayed in the marriage for seven years thinking I was protecting them. But what relationship did I model for them? What lessons did they learn? Kids need positive role models. So the second you know the marriage is not for you, it is time to go. You're not doing them any favors. And again, I think that, you know, the second you know the marriage isn't for you, part of this whole conversation is how do you gain the clarity of that? How do you know you might have a sense and you want to be sure because this is a pretty big, drastic, life changing decision. And that's again where you're only going to get so far trying to figure it out yourself. So part of what a lot of the men talked about in the next section and what we're suggesting is get some help, bring in some outside resources, gain some more perspectives, start talking to people that you trust, start talking to mentors. You know, be, be open, be open to guidance because you, you need some help. You need some help to gain clarity around this. This is not a, a one size fits all, yes or no, easy to determine question. It is.

Jason Lange: You know, one more thing that just comes up around the exhaustion. There's another lens I just want to put out there of kind of some of the, I don't know, I guess waypoints we may, we, we hopefully kind of guide men towards noticing is one of the areas we'll often feel so exhausted as men. Where we start to kind of feel hopeless and give up is when there's no reciprocity. Right. When we don't feel there's an energetic exchange of sometimes I'm generous and I bring something forward. Sometimes she's generous and she brings something forward. If the experience we're having is I am just trying to put out the energy and lead or all the time and I'm not getting anything back, it's it. We get into a lot of pain and it's very exhausting. But one thing we've seen with men is like, we will gladly take on responsibility and lead when we're getting some energetic nourishment back in exchange. Even if it's just simple appreciation. Right. For. Wow. I, you know, I'm still kind of pissed at you because of what you did yesterday, but I just wanted to appreciate. I really, it really meant a lot to me that you came and tried to apologize. Even something as simple as that, like when a partner can step into that, then it's like, okay, there's like, we're in a process now. We're in a back and forth a dynamic. But some men, what they discover is no matter what I'm bringing forward, I'm not getting anything back. And that becomes the kind of the unwinnable situation.

Melanie Curtin: That's well said. And what, what comes to mind when you share that is having a teammate that we are. We are on the same team. And even when I'm pissed at you, I have a sense of, you know what? I can see you. That you're trying. I can see that you're trying, and I appreciate that. There's something about being seen for our efforts that is inherently connecting, whereas it's always my fault. I can never get it right. You know, there's a lot of, I think men who have that experience of, what's even the point anymore? What's even the point of trying? I don't. I don't feel like I'm ever being received or that I'm ever being approved of, and that's. That's not having a teammate. That's not having a teammate. So I. Yeah, I really appreciate you speaking to that. And I think there's, again, a lot of discernment is really what you're trying to figure out is am I showing up in a way as a man that's going to inspire my woman? Right. Am I leading? Am I leading? And that can be conversation or like you said, cleaning up around the house or. Or initiating hard conversations. Right. And. And then am I being received in that. So again, we're back to am I lobbing the ball over the. Over the net, and am I getting a response, or is every ball that I. That I throw over the net just. Just falling? And there's no. There's no response. I'm not getting anything back. The. The D word. Divorce can also be, you know, something that your partner is requesting of you or has brought up to you. And I want to go through a few of those responses, which. The question I asked was, if you were the one receiving the request for divorce, how did you handle that initially, and how are you feeling about it now that you're through it? Because I think that's another thing that's really terrifying about divorce as a concept is when you have intertwined lives, particularly when there are children involved in assets and homes and things like that. It's such a. It can feel like such a daunting prospect. It can feel like it's just so much easier to stay. It's just so much easier to stay. And, you know, the way that one. One of our men put it was, are you staying out of fear or are you staying out of love? Are you staying because you want. Because you love this person or, you know, this. Yeah. This person and this relationship, and you want to invest in it or you staying because it feels really hard and messy and scary to. To extract yourself so if you were the one receiving the request for divorce, how did you handle that initially and how are you feeling about it now that you're through it? This man said initially, the divorce, the decision to divorce was really hard. Probably the most difficult time in my life. My whole identity at that time was tied to being a husband and a father. I felt unwanted, discarded, and useless. After months of going through the legal battles, it seemed like being unhappily married was a much easier option. However, once everything was settled and the divorce was final, things got better. I completed the Pillars program. That's our coaching program, the name of our program. I completed the Pillars program and learned about myself. Nearly three years since separation, I'm still discovering my purpose and I'm more confident about my future than ever. I am driving my life in ways that weren't possible with my ex wife. So this is a man who, it wasn't his choice, the divorce was not his choice. And he is saying, I'm more confident about my future than ever. I'm driving my life in ways that weren't possible with my ex wife. So I guess what I want to say is sometimes in life we make choices and we are the actors and sometimes in life we are the recipients of think change, of change. And how we navigate that is life, right? Do we resist, do we fight, do we deny? How much time do we spend kind of pushing against what's happening versus really accepting and moving with the flow of what's happening and gaining those outside resources, bringing in what we need to in order to navigate that well, that process. I'm thinking of a period in my life when I was evicted from a house. They were going to sell the house. And I also lost my job because the startup I was working for ran out of funding. And this was within a few weeks, right? Eviction and, or pending eviction and losing my job. Neither of those was my choice. And I remember going to an authentic relating event that I was leading and I said, it feels like a little like a, like a mini tsunami, like a big wave, right? Of energy that I didn't choose. But I'm picking up a surfboard and I'm, I'm figuring out how to surf that wave. And what I ended up doing was moving cities, right? Moving my, my life because I'd been thinking about moving to a different place and it felt like, all right, life just, just un. Threw the lines off the boat, right? The boat is now unmoored and it can go anywhere because you're not tied to a job. And you're not tied to a place to live. So where. Where do you feel called to? What do you feel called to do next? And I truly admire and am in awe of many of the men that we work with because they are in the process of taking the reins of their life. Right. Okay, this is happening. This is happening. This is happening to me. And I don't want to just lean back and not know. I want to figure out who I am and what I want. And I realize that I need a little help to get there because I've been trying. Like, we had a guy who was in his 40s and he said, I still feel like a boy. I don't feel like a man. And I want to feel like a man. I want to know who I am and where I'm going. And I feel like that's a great. That is a manly act right there. Right? It is the act of a man to say, I haven't been able to do this yet. And I'm. I'm determined. I want this. So I'm going to bring in people that are going to help me get there. To me, that's the healthy, masculine, ultimate. Ultimate healthy masculine is here's where I'm going, here's what I want to get, and I don't know how to do it, so I'm going to bring in people that are going to help me get there. I remember once someone saying, a leader is not someone who knows how to do all the things. A leader is someone who knows how to put together a team that knows how to do all the things and then they support the shit out of that team. That's what a leader does. They don't actually know how to do anything, but they know how to bring the right people together and encourage them and have them feel safe and love them well and. And facilitate conversation between them and help that team go. That's what a leader does. And that's a little bit, I think, how our lives are of. We don't know a lot of things. There's a lot of things we don't know. And when we don't know, we bring in outside resources to help us. That is the act of an adult. That is true power versus what our culture says, which is figure it all out yourself. You should know how to do all of this already, especially men. So if you ask for help, it's a sign of weakness. Any comments on that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, we've talked about that before, but sometimes, I mean, it's somewhere I've had to Go in my own relationship. And I think somewhere that men can lead is. And particularly in this instance of, hey, I realize we're at a point that I don't know if we can navigate out of this ourselves. I don't know if it's going to work with us. I think we need some help. So I want us to get a couple's therapist. I want us to do a coaching program. I want us to go on a workshop. Like, we need some outside support. And that is, again, one of these kind of waypoints how your partner responds to that. If you do invoke that of like, hey, I think we need something beyond where either of us know how to get right now. Very indicative, right? Are they a hard. No, no therapy. I won't do that. Nope. Again, that's a pretty big feedback for you of, well, that doesn't really set us up to win here if. If there's no flexibility in terms of getting support or. Or help or trying things. But if a partner's like, okay, that scares me. I'm a little uncomfortable by that. You know, I have some fears. But, okay, let's try it. You know, let's find a couples therapist. Let's give it a go. That's a huge red flag or green flag, Right. That's like, okay, they're willing to try to meet you in this. But sometimes our leadership is not, I know how to fix it. It's. I'm going to initiate getting us the support to fix it. And that counts for this very important question that a lot of men are dealing with of, is this relationship going to make it? Is it going to work? Sometimes the reason you haven't made the decision is you might not know how to make that decision. Right. And that's where you do need some outside support for the couple, for yourself, to get some more perspective, like we've been saying, and expertise and to even try some things.

Melanie Curtin: Absolutely. And there's something also to be said for getting your own support and your own help. And what I mean by that is we. We've had. We've had a number of clients who've said, well, this. I've gotten more here in this coaching container than I have in my talk therapy sessions or in couples counseling. Because we're doing different work. We're doing a different kind of work, and a lot of our work is somatic and embodied, and it's different than solely talking about something. And I'm thinking in particular of a man who stepped into this work and went deep and really improved his marriage. And ultimately she came to what you were saying of wow, I see how much you've grown and changed. I want to work on myself too. And now she's doing women's work and that's a green flag, right? It's like, wow, I see how this has served me. And that was not a couple's counseling session. That was him working on his own stuff, on his own. How do I show up in my healthy, masculine. How do I really, how do I really do that? Right. And so I think there's something really beautiful about doing this kind of work that we're, that we're talking about because even if it doesn't serve you in this current relationship, in this current, if you're in a marriage, it's going to serve you in your future relationship. Right? You can't really go wrong when you're going through and learning about polarity and learning about your own triggers and learning how to lead and stepping into wholeness. Right? Stepping into more wholeness. It's like polarity is worth learning about and worth knowing about whether you, whether this relationship that you're currently in works out or not. It's worth it both ways. So. And that's probably also true of something like couples counseling. Although I think a lot of it depends on, on who's in the room. A lot of it depends on who's in the room. I want to keep going with some of these responses. So this is now again still with the if this was a request that the man received, this man said, I can only tell people about how not to handle the initial request. I turned it on her, made it about me, and I had deep disdain and anger and did little to process it correctly other than to mask it with isolation and alcohol. This was a short lived reaction. With work and commitment to our daughter, we sought help. I cleaned up and we made a promise to remain friends in order to navigate the trials of raising a daughter who was dramatically saddened and confused by our divorce. Ten years later, I feel great about it. We've both remarried. Our daughter is a well adjusted dream of a young lady who captures the hearts and minds of everyone she meets. I wished my ex wife happy Mother's Day. I'm at her house weekly. It's a unique situation, but I'd say that by accepting my piece of the pie, which was the majority of the blame, and committing to something outside of myself, I was able to make a hostile, grotesque divorce turn into a wonderful partnership in parenting. This other man said, so this is a little Bit of a different tone, but this concept came up a couple of times, and I'm gonna read a few responses in a row that kind of point to this. This man said, I was relieved. I should have ended the marriage sooner. It was the best thing that ever could have happened at that point in my life. This other man said, when I received the request, I was not heartbroken, but nonetheless hurt and. And perplexed at the time. But once finalized, I was actually glad I could move on to finding someone I was more compatible with. And then finally, this man said, I received the request on our anniversary and was shocked. I am regretful now that I stayed in a marriage that she was not interested in working on, definitely not interested in working on herself. But neither of us knew what we know now. So I guess there's a little bit of a time capsule element to those chairs that I wanted to point out, which is when we're stuck in the middle of something, it's almost impossible to see our way through or ahead. So I guess it's sort of like I wanted to bring back notes from the men who have been on this journey from a faraway land who are sort of sharing that even if it wasn't your choice or, you know, even if you weren't the one to initiate, it can still end up as a really positive thing. And that, again, it's complex, and sometimes shifts in our lives are actually leading us to more wholeness and to more joy rather than what we might think in the moment, which is, oh, my God, this is gonna. This is gonna blow up my life. This is gonna destroy everything.

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. I think, again, I like your surfing metaphor of sometimes stuff's going to come at us, and we. The thing you always have control over is your response, right? So no matter what's coming your way, if your partner initiates it, if something comes from outside, part of what we're working is. The one area I do have control over is how am I going to respond to this situation? And, you know, it's the. It's where it does. It can ultimately be empowering, even if our partner initiates, you know, and in some ways, it can be a loving thing, you know, and this goes both ways, too. I'll just share that, you know, if a partner is unwilling to change and they feel really stuck, sometimes the most loving thing we can do is bring it to an end, because otherwise we can be perpetuating that stuckness, in a sense. But when we're like, yeah, this. I can't do this anymore, we're done. That partner then has that choice brought to them too, of, okay, I can either grow from this or I can just stay stuck. And sometimes partners, you know, and this is what can be really hard sometimes, is we end it and then our partner does start to grow, and we're like, ah, should I have stayed? Should I have gone? But it's like, no, that wouldn't have happened had you stayed. Like, they needed that shock to the system, in a sense, to wake up. So it can be a gift. You know, that's maybe an odd frame for this, but sometimes, you know, moving a relationship towards completion can be a gift to both partners because it can create the space for the next level of growth or healing to happen. And there can absolutely be miraculous turnarounds in relationships when both partners are committed and willing to take responsibility and have that des. Fire. And, you know, there. There is also sometimes too much accumulated disconnection or damage in a sense where you're like, wow, you know, it might take us a decade to repair this, and is that how I want to spend my next decade? There's no easy answer. I'm not saying it's just sunshine and roses. If you leave your relationship, guess what? Your next relationship is going to throw the same problems in your face to some extent. Like, we all have to do that, eyes wide open. But that, yeah, sometimes it's like, you know, we've worked with guys, 20, 30, 40 years of disconnection, and they just get to the point where it's like that there's no real way for us to get there again. It's just too much hurt. It's too much time. I need to go. And that can make sense to me. That can really make sense to me that, you know, and it's why I think it's important that if you're. If you're a man and you're questioning this, the sooner you bring it forward, the better, because it really can make a difference if you presence this disconnect, let's say, earlier than later, there's more opportunity to still adjust. I remember it's never too late.

Melanie Curtin: Right. I will. I remember one of my. I heard something that marriage counselors said. I really wish that people came to me when their relationship was. Was sprained, like a sprained ankle instead of a broken leg. The sooner the better. You know, we really want to get in there. And I think that speaks a lot to how so many of us are just repeating patterns from our family of origin and so many people are repeating that pattern. Of we don't really talk about what's really going on. Right. We don't really talk about what's really going on and that we're sort of functioning in that zone rather than learning a new way of doing it. So I did ask our, our men also about what advice would you have or what advice do you have for men that are in this position? This man says, my biggest advice is don't listen to others. It isn't their life, it's yours. Of course, I don't think he was talking about mentors. I think he was perhaps talking about family members or friends or others, you know, in his life. But the. That might have a lot to say or might have a lot of. Yeah. Advice to give when really it's. It's your life. This man said, ask these questions and the answer needs to be yes or at least probably to make it worthwhile. Am I willing to meet my spouse halfway? Is my spouse willing to meet me halfway? Am I willing to own my part of the mess that my marriage has become? Is my spouse willing to own their part? Am I willing and able to work hard to rebuild a loving relationship? Are they willing and able to work hard for that goal? And I think it's an, it's. It's interesting because we recently did an episode on MDMA therapy for, for couples. And I think that that is a tool that can be used. Jason, to your point, when there has been a lot of hurts and maybe betrayal and confusion and harm, and it's a process. It's a process. It's, it's. There's a lot of stages to that process and tools like MDMA I think can be helpful in that process. And it does require commitment and longevity and both peoples commitment and longevity. And I think that's really what those questions are getting at is do we have two players here? Do we have two tennis players? Are both people hitting the ball over the court? Because that is 100% necessary for this process, especially when there's been deep hurt and deep resentments that have built. This other man's advice was, I think a men's group is the best way to get help. Coaching and support. Feeling seen and held by other men is valuable in getting your thoughts attuned to the task at hand. Try marriage counseling and give it several sessions. In the end, if you and your partner can't connect in the way that feels right most of the time, it's okay to have conversations about what's not working and how letting it go might be the Best solution. And then similar to that, that first one, this man said, forget about the shoulds and the societal pressures of staying past the expiration date. This life is the one shot you get to experience and spread joy, make a difference for yourself and those around you. Unfulfilled dreams and complacency are the seeds of regret and a life unlived. And that actually reminds me of something that you've said often, Jason, about the biggest regrets that men have are the things that they didn't do, not the things that they did.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, totally. It's, it's the. When we never took the action so we'll never know. Right. And that's I think an important thing here for guys. Again, that isn't the magic bullet, but there's a different kind of freedom than we've worked with get to of. Oh, I really do feel in my bones. I came forward, I put in the energy, I put in the time I tried to listen to her, I tried to show up differently, took responsibility for my wounding, I got support. I've made time for the relationship and it's still not fulfilling. I still don't feel met. It's a very different energy to then exit a relationship from of okay, I, you know, I showed up fully versus the, you know, sometimes guys who got out before they really took responsibility and they do have that like kind of, I don't know, would it have been different? You know, and it's not always our fault because we didn't have the training or we didn't get exposed to right people. But that place is a, is a really special spot of, you know, again and like the guy said, you know, it's an internal. We can't make that decision for you. It's something you get to inside yourself. We can support you in that. We can do temperature checks with you, which we often do with men where they're like, hey, is this, you know, am I crazy? What does this feel like? You know, this pattern or this thing and we can come back and give you, you know, our honest take and other men can give you their honest take and over time that really, that really helps. But that, that willingness to, to take the chance and take the action and disrupt, you know, not just go with the status quo. We do particularly work with a lot of nice guys who will just can make anything work and will stay in it and will sacrifice their, their own needs, their own well being because that's what you're supposed to do or because they don't want to upset their Kids or their family. And we're saying, you know, know, there's a different thing here, and sometimes the shadow side of all that, too. Another thing I'll just bring forward is if you're not honest with your partner about what you need and what you're feeling and what your wants and desires are, you're not actually giving her an opportunity to meet you. And there are. There are men who sometimes just out of habit, they. They. That I can't ask for that or out of shame or something, and they're. They're actually taking the decision away from their partner, right? They're. They're making an assumption about what their partner can do. So that willingness to get raw and get real, and here's what I need, here's not what's not working for me. The more you can both get really clear about that and be very honest about that, the more you can get to that important question of. And then are we willing to try to give that to each other? As imperfect and as messy as that might be, am I at least willing? Because a lot of guys I know and have worked with, you know, if their partner was like, I don't know, that scares me. I'm kind of terrified by that. I don't feel like I'll be good at that. But I love you, and I want this to work, so I want to try. Like, that can go a long, long way in, like. I guess another way to put this is, you know, for any women listening out there in. In these kind of situations, like letting your man know you want it to work, I want this to work, even though I cannot see how to make it work right now. And that's a conflict for me. If you both have that want, I'd say it's worth giving it a shot.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thanks for speaking to that. Because I do think that that. That willingness, that desire, hearing that from your partner is. Is something that we. We don't always hear from. Right. With the men that we're working with. Like, yeah, if you're not getting that ever, that's not a good sign. That's not a good sign. That's a. This patient might not make it kind of sign. You know, this man spoke to what you just. What you just alluded to. He said. In terms of advice, I would say I would recommend that you do your personal work and understand yourself better before you make a major decision like a divorce. I really wish that I had found the Pillars program before I went through the divorce. I think it could have changed the Outcome of my relationship. All relationships and marriages are different. And it's incredibly important to commit to doing your personal work. I think that really speaks to what you're, you're saying about when you lead. You're able to then see what the response is. And if the response is, okay, yeah, I'm really scared about that and not sure how this is going to go for me. I might not be good at it. And I really do want to make this work with you. If, if, if you're never leading, you're never going to know what that response is. This is sort of the, this is, I would say, a man on the other side. And there's obviously a diversity in these responses. He said, do it asap. If it's over, it's over. Don't stay together for the kids and don't hold on to any material possessions, including the house. Get rid of everything ASAP to start over. Life is much better on the other side. And then this man spoke to a few of the themes that we've been, been going to. And I loved the way that he phrased at the end. He said, you have to have some healthy boundaries in a marriage and they must be respected by your partner. If there is only one person working on the marriage, then one person will eventually leave. It takes two people to make a relationship work and one person to end it. Setting a positive example for your kids is more important than setting a bad example, even if that is in a second, third, or fourth relationship. And I want to just go on record as saying we've worked with multiple men now where their relationships with their children, I'm thinking in particular of men with adult children, so young, young adult children, where their relationships with their children have improved after a divorce. And particularly as their children have witnessed them doing the personal growth work we're talking about, their children have noticed the differences and spoken to them, and they've noticed that their kids are spending more time with them that they, you know, almost to a man, I would say that the, the men that we work with who do get divorced end up attracting healthier partners in the future. As you do your work, you tend to attract healthier partners. As you become more healthy and whole, you tend to attract people who are more healthy and whole. And so a number of these, you know, clients I'm thinking of, their adult children have commented on, like, wow, this, this new relationship with we really like her, or they, they want to spend time with them. There's, there's something that they can sense that's happening in that relationship that maybe isn't happening with their spouse. Right. The spouse that the man left, the wife that the man left who didn't want to grow. Well, she's still not growing, so she's still doing the same relationship patterns and young adult children, they can tell, they can tell, they can feel the difference and they want to be around the growth oriented couple. That's not true for everyone all the time, but it is a trend that I've noticed. So I just want to say, yeah, it might be the second, third or fourth relationship. You know, you might be on your second marriage and it might not be working. That's okay. Wherever you are is okay. There's no timeline outside of what is happening in your world. Everybody's different and, and things can always be, be improved upon and things can always, there's, there's always a brighter future. I guess that's where I would, would want to say. And I, I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass. I'm, I'm telling you as someone who has worked with many, many, many men by this point, when you lean into your growth work and you grow and you shift your consciousness, you get different results in your life.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I, I want to, I want to just end this with the, what I'm going to call the win win of doing your own work. So if you're in this situation and you're on the edge and you don't know, is this relationship for me anymore, is it going to work? The win win here is to step in and do exactly what that person talked about of do your work. Because on the one side, the win will be you start to change. And when one person starts to change, that is going to change the relational structure. And someone else may then step into you with that and then, boom, you've saved your marriage. You can fall even deeper in love on the other side if that doesn't happen. The growth work, you've just invested in yourself, including with coaches and support in community. You have transformed a paradigm. So the next relationship you get into is going to be different. It will be different. Some of these patterns, when we see them and when we help men see them, you can't unsee them. You cannot. Wow. Like the first example you gave of the nice guy and the volatile women, it's like, oh, wait, turns out I'm a little culpable here. If I'm not setting boundaries, I'm going to keep attracting partners who probably don't respect my boundary. I see that now. And I've done work around that and oh man, heartbreaking. It did not work out in my current relationship, but now I have the skills and tools. So in my next relationship from the get go, I'm going to be able to set healthy boundaries. And when you do that, what you find is the only people who stick around are are people who know how to set healthy boundaries and respect them. Green lights for the relationship. Right? So the win win here is do your work.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And I have one last inspiring share from a man sort of to this point. He said, initially I tried to quote change and do all the things she said I wasn't doing without realizing how much I was already doing for everyone but me. My focus was on saving the relationship for my kids to avoid failure, etc. When I started to work with you and Jason on what I want and what I need, I realized how much I was giving and how little I was getting in return, which changed the equation for me. I am now one year past her asking for a divorce and one month from finalizing the settlement. I am happy on multiple fronts. A I am more present with my kids and building deeper relationships on the day I have them on the days I have them. B I have more free time for myself than ever on the days I don't have them. C I'm excited about the prospects of finding a relationship with someone that is excited and appreciates me versus channeling my energy into someone that doesn't appreciate what I have to offer. And he talked about, you know, stability for the kids. He said, regarding kids, stability is more important than married versus divorced. Ask yourself, will you and your partner give your kids more stability together or apart from in my case, I think we're doing a better job as co parents than we were before because we have figured out how to provide stability. I'm also enjoying the free time when I don't have the kids and I'm able to pursue personal interests that I haven't done in a long time. Which by the way, often means that you show up as a more resourced parent. Right. When you are getting time to cultivate the things that light you up that are. That are that you're passionate about, you're bringing a lot of energy to the relationship with your kids. You know, when you're drained all the time, you're not that present and your kids can notice. Your kids notice. You probably notice that your kids notice. Right? Because meltdowns often happen when we, we as the adults aren't resourced in that moment. So this I thought Was a, a poignant ending to his. Sher said, I weighed trying to stay together for the kids. My equation was that if I have around 25 good years left, do I want to spend 13 of them, quote, staying together for the kids versus building a healthy co parenting relationship while also finding someone that chooses me and wants to build a life together. So. Any final comments? As we start to land this plane, I, I personally feel inspired. I feel like part of what we're talking about in this whole conversation is a concept called emergence, which is I've been thinking about a lot lately, which is what wants to happen here? What, what, where is the healing movement? What wants to happen here? And sometimes what wants to happen here is we lean into this growth, work together. Right? I do my part, I focus on myself, on fixing my messy stuff around boundaries, on showing up for myself so that I can show up for this relationship and I repolarize the relationship and you're leaning into your, you know, learning how to open and we're, we're doing this thing. Sometimes that's what's called for. Sometimes that's what wants to happen. And sometimes what wants to happen is this isn't working. This isn't, this isn't working for either of us. We've tried or I've tried and it's just not working. And in that case, holding on is not the healing movement. In that case, choosing to let go is the healing movement and navigating and finding your way through to the next thing. And sometimes we need a little help to get to that. What wants to happen here?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'll just end with, sometimes the greatest act of leadership can be no longer tolerating mediocrity. I mean, right. I've said this before, but I've been shocked in all the calls I've done. You know, we tend to work with this population so that, you know, these are the guys I hear from. But it is pretty shocking how easy it can be for people to fall into a relationship where their relationship is one of the major sources of stress in their life, meaning it is actually creating more stress in life, their intimate relationship. And I am strongly in the camp that as challenging as relationship should be, the purpose of it is to be a resource so you and your partner can be resourced against the stresses of the already very challenging world. And sometimes the most loving thing to say is, I'm sorry I let us here and I let it get this bad. I'm no longer willing to tolerate this level of disconnection or dysfunction in our family and our relationship. I don't know what that means, but we need to make a change. I'm getting help. I'm getting support, and that's where I feel like I can start. How does that feel for you?

Melanie Curtin: That was great. That was. That was really powerful. I. I mean, I felt myself, like, want to follow your lead. Right. I'm leaning in. I'm listening. I'm, you know. Yeah. The raw, real truth. The raw, real truth. That's really what we're talking about. So if you have listened to this and you feel inspired to work with us, you can always book a call. Just go to Evolutionary Men Slash Apply, and we will catch you next time. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.