308: Are you staying together for the kids? There may be another way to go. | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Love looked like, or felt like energetically in the room right between two people, like what connection looked like. I just. I didn't see what affection looked like, what flirting looked like. So as I got into high school, you know, part of my story, most people that listen to this know it was just. It was terror for me. Hi, everyone.

Melanie Curtin: I just wanted to say a quick thank you before this episode begins. I think it was last week or the week before I requested that. Yeah, if anybody wanted to help support the podcast, that you could leave a rating and a review. And I definitely got several of those, so I really appreciate it. I also think it's a little bit funny that the podcast is classified under health and fitness. Not sure how that happened, but I found it amusing. I thought you might too. You can always get me@dearmen podcastmail.com and if you want to go deeper than the podcast and you want to join our community, you can always become a patron. You can join our Patreon. And if you do so at a level of $10 a month or more, you will get access to our live monthly Q&As with Amua. So we would love to have you join the community, if you would. And without further ado, we will get into this episode and I'm very curious to hear what you think of it. So if you have any questions or comments or stories of your own or just anything, really, you can always get me@dearmen podcastmail.com I love to hear from you and I would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks. Hey, welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. This one is a long time coming, you know. Glad to have you back, Jason, to be discussing this with, because we've both noticed that a lot of the men that come into our program have struggled with this question and grappled with it over the course of the program. And it also comes up, I think, a lot in the calls that you've done with men over the course of the years, Jason. So we're going to dive right in. And the question is, should you stay together for the kids? And we're going to look at this in sort of two, two ways. One is the sort of, you know, your experience, possibly, if you're listening to this, if you were a kid whose parents may maybe stayed together, quote, unquote, for you, right? That should you stay together for the kids? And they made the choice, yes, I should stay together for the kids. And then we'll look at, if you have kids, what that choice is like for you. So, yeah, Jason, I'm curious if you could just outline a little bit of what is this question? When men are coming to you with it, what are they grappling with in terms of should I stay. Should I stay together with my partner for the kids?

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. A couple different things I've certainly noticed. One is that this is by no means the case for everyone. So this is just a spectrum of the types of relationships we're talking about, but one that I think sometimes people don't even consider as a possibility. And that's to a shocking degree. There have definitely been many men I've worked with and known in my own men's communities that find actually it actually is the intimacy part that does not work between them and their partner. Right. Like it's that that's not working. And once that's taken off the table, they're actually amazing as co parents together. Meaning because we're not trying to make the intimacy work, we can actually be better parents still connected to each other. Yes. Living apart. But that that frees up so much. And I've seen that one actually, when.

Melanie Curtin: You'Re saying the word intimacy, you're including sex. What you're talking about is physical.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Like, so us no longer being a pair, bonded intimate sexual couple. Right. That thing. But when we free it up, we're, hey, we are co parents of these children and we're not in intimate relationship anymore. I've actually seen that to a surprising extent in again, a spectrum of relationships. So this isn't going to work with everyone. But that is legitimately a possibility that I've seen happen. That it's like that actually is the pain point. And when that's taken away, it's like, we love parenting with each other. She's such a great mom and she's saying, he's such a great dad. But they're different, right. They're separate. That, that, that intimate relationship isn't part of that anymore. So that is a possibility. I just want guys to know exists. It may or may not be the case for you, but you may have an intuition on that. Right. Particularly if you've tried therapy and tried some stuff before and it's like, this is the thing that's not working. Us trying to be lovers.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Yeah. I think that, that probably that describes my parents. I mean, I know very little about their sex life, but I do know that they were great co parents. They were great co parents. I thought they did an amazing job coordinating and cooperating around travel and my education and, you know, decision making. I never felt like they were at odds, honestly. I felt like they did a really good job. And I can't point to a single instance of them fighting, you know, when I was consciously aware, like after the fact. I'm sure they fought when I was under three, but I don't remember. Um, but in terms of co parenting, man, they rocked it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And to really honor myself. To honor myself and my needs. You know, it's like in. In a romantic, intimate, sexual relationship, if you're in a committed, monogamous relationship and you're not getting your sexual needs met, then you're not getting your needs met because that you've, you know, you've. You've locked the doors, the other exits are closed. This is the one channel for this. And if it's not happening, it's painful, and it's often connected to other, other things that are going on in the relationship. You know, the flow of love in some way is blocked, and there's tons of reasons for that. And that's not what this exact podcast is about. But the point is that I think there's a way of honoring your own needs that you role model when you do leave a relationship that's not working, even if it's a marriage. And this is. This is a really interesting question because for a lot of people, there's this sense of. There's two things that. One is, I made a commitment. Right. I took vows. This is a serious lifelong commitment that I made. So how can I go back on my word like that? That feels really bad. And it feels like I'm role modeling, giving up or quitting if I choose to leave this relationship. And I think a lot of people grapple with that, especially religious folks, people who have a really strong sense of this was supposed to be forever, this was supposed to be for life. And I remember one of my good friends is Christian, and that was a huge part of the dissolution of her marriage. That was troubling to her, deeply troubling, was this was a vow that we made. We made this vow. So for us to go back on that, for me to go back on that, feels earth shattering. And ultimately she did a lot of praying and she. She's very connected to God in her. In her way. And ultimately God said, this is what needs to Happen now. Like, this is the path. And the path isn't always neat and tidy. Sometimes the path is messy, and that's where growth happens. So this is the path. Actually, this is the spiritual path. It's not going back on the spiritual path or skirting it. It's like, this is the path, and sometimes it's messy. Which I thought was a really poignant, you know, reminder of how, you know, religion can be dogmatic. But a person's relationship with God or spirit or however you want to say it is, is profound. And I found that such a beautiful sort of representation of what. What can be when it comes to that decision of, like, this is. This is now the spiritual path. This is what is called for, for everyone's highest good, mine, hers, the children's or whoever, his. Whatever pronouns you're. You're using. And then the other thing is, I remember one of my guy friends was trying to determine whether he was going to stay with his woman. They weren't married, but they were together. And essentially, I think she had. She had some borderline characteristics. Characteristics of borderline personality disorder. And he knew that my parents were not together anymore. And it was funny because we. I remember having a text conversation with him where he was essentially trying to gauge, like, how much will I fuck up my daughter if I leave my wife? Or, sorry, they weren't married, but, like, if I, you know, if I choose that this relationship is. Is not working. And there are elements of it that feel deeply unhealthy, like, how much will I fuck up my daughter? He didn't say it like that, but I could feel this, you know, sense in him. And he was like, you know, so did you get therapy later in life? Like, how was it for you? And I could feel him trying to see, like, how much did it fuck you up that your parents split up? And one of the things I told him was, I'm deeply grateful that my parents chose to split up when they did. I'm really glad that I was young. I'm really glad that they didn't stay together and have conflict for years and have my poor little growing body be around all of that conflict. Like, there's such a. There's just that tension that you're around when it's not working right, when you can feel that there's no. There's no, like, juice there. There's no, like, affection. There's no love. There's no, like, kisses or hugs in the kitchen. And warmth. There's no warmth. It's like, I'm So glad that I wasn't around that environment because to your point, when I was with mom, I was really with mom, and when I was with Dad, I was really with dad. And dad remarried when I was 7 or 8, something like that. And, you know, they had their own issues, my dad and my stepmom. But I did witness a lot of affection. Like, I could feel that they were affectionate. And they had actually been high school sweethearts, so they'd known each other since they were like 12 years old or something. And what I could really tell they had in their relationship was friendship, like a basis of friendship and. Yeah. And affection. So I got to be around them as a couple, and then my dad. And then when I was with mom, I was with mom, and I didn't have a lot of the conflict that they, you know, told me about earlier in life. And so what I was trying to explain to my friend was when you. When you're having conflict with your woman, like your. Your little girl is around, that she's. She's absorbing it. And I think that he thought, like, oh, since it was happening in another room or not when she was there, you know, that it was sort of fine. And it was like, no, but kids can feel it. They can feel it. They can sense it.

Jason Lange: The.

Melanie Curtin: Where the kid is sitting at the top of the stairs listening to their parents fight downstairs, or like, listening at the door to the study, like, that's real. Kids are always trying to track what is happening in my family system. Am I safe? Is it my fault? There's no way. You can't, you know, direct that out of a child. That's just part of their development.

Melanie Curtin: And would you say that that also had an impact on you in terms of you like what did you learn?

Jason Lange: Totally. I didn't learn anything. I mean what I didn't learn was what love looked like or felt like energetically in the room right between two people, like what connection looked like. I just, I didn't see what affection looked like, what flirting look like. So as I got into high school, you know, part of my story, most people that listen to this know it was just, it was terror for me because that energy had never been, I'd never been in the presence of it, like just that simple and so not seeing that. And you know, one of the lessons I did kind of internalize was, you know, the, the dynamic that played out in, in Our house was just each person's doing their roles. That should be enough. Mom's taking care of the house, Dad's earning money. That should be enough for a relationship. It wasn't enough, right. There was no connection there. I never saw any of that stuff. And that, that what I would call pattern still runs through me, right? Runs through me in my marriage. Like, I have to consciously work against that to show up as a loving presence for my daughter, for my wife, that, like, no, it matters to be present, put my attention on them, share affection. These things that actually are not the first impulse of my nervous system because it wasn't present in my house. Like, that's a karma that still stays with me, that I've done a lot of beautiful work and has totally, you know, shifted in a lot of ways. But the baseline is still kind of starting from there.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's. It. I'm just nodding along because that, you know, that question of, of my friend, right? Like, hey, just sort of trying to gauge, like, how fucked up are you because your parents split up? It's like, how healthy am I because my parents split up, right. How much more of us.

Jason Lange: Great question, right?

Melanie Curtin: How much more of a shot do I have now that they've split up? And I like to. What you said of. It's, you know, it's never too late. There's never a point at which it's too late. Nothing expires. Right. Like, you grew up in the kind of house where love and being in loveness was not role modeled, but you have an amazing wife and daughter. So it's like, it's. Everything is overcomeable. And this is why I love our program and I love watching men's lives transform form. Because when you do personal growth work, it works. It actually does things. Your life changes, and it doesn't happen overnight, but we see significant changes in our men over the course of our program, which is only 10 weeks. And then we see even more significant changes over the next 3, 6, 9, 12 months, especially, I would say the first year and even after that. Because as you grow, the delta between where you were and where you are now also grows. It's like, it's like a. It's like a virtuous cycle, right? As you grow, you. You become bigger, your world gets more expansive, you attract different kinds of people. You've. You've hit another threshold and another level. And I'm wondering if there's a, you know, significant story or stories of men we've supported that come to mind in terms of this particular constellation of leaving a relationship and the impact on the kids. You know, for me, I think one of the stories that comes to mind is the freedom around setting a boundary with a co parent and saying, like, our relationship is not going to be what it was. Like, I need to get a divorce from you. We need to get a divorce. And then role modeling, healthy boundaries, which are not easy sometimes, it's not easy to set those boundaries. But what a gift to those kids. It's like they're actually getting to see dad say, here's what's okay, and here's what's not okay, and here's what I'm going to do about it instead of just, here's what I tolerate every day.

Jason Lange: Totally. I think that's a great example and, you know, one comes to mind of just a client who did make an exit from a relationship and was really concerned about the stability of his family and his sons. And that, you know, what's opened up for him in creating, you know, a life for himself, essentially, is so much more vitality, like, in so much more him. Ness. If I could put it in a way that his kids are now getting to experience with him.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Where they're asking to be with him because they can, you know, I think, feel a part of their father that they never got to feel before. And that's a part of him that they're really attracted to. Right. A man in his power, in his pleasure, knowing right where he needs to be. Still attuned, you know, still connected to his ex in the ways he needs to be, but also, you know, living a life that. That's meaningful. And I really think that does send a signal to them.

Melanie Curtin: It's so interesting. I was reading something the other day about parenting, and they said, part of your job as a parent is to thrive. It's actually part of their job. And I think in the West, I think that's missed. When I think about sort of puritanical expectations around parenting, it's really like, are you providing for your kids? Are you providing them with enough love, with enough affection, with enough attention? Are you sending them to the right school or the right camp? Do they have the right, you know, food? Are they like, are they okay? Vs are they okay? And are you thriving? Are you thriving? Are you doing your art, whatever your art is in the world? Are you happy? Do you have healthy friendships and connections with others? Are you thriving? Because that is part of your job as a parent? And my little mind was blown. I was like, holy shit, I've never put that in the arena of good, quote, unquote, good parenting. That's always been like, oh, then there's this extra like, you know, are you okay? Okay, whatever. But there's just this sort of like, sacrificial frame around parenting of like, you have to do everything for the kids and sort of sacrifice yourself. And it just completely turned that on its head. To say part of your job as a parent is to thrive.

Jason Lange: Totally. I think that's something I was thinking about, and I think it's showing up in research and stuff now. That there can be an overemphasis on the kid and their well being is actually one of the kind of reverse backlashes happening here in the west where we just never want our kids to be upset or never have any problems. But I think there's a different thing we're seeing here, which is what's important is for them to be around the energy of thriving. Which thriving doesn't mean everything's always working right. It just means that there's room in our system for tension or disconnection that we then keep growing beyond. And I really like this image of, you know, the parental unit, the couple, you know, whoever's kind of the baseline for. For the family. And this even goes, I guess, apart, you know, once you're single. Because sometimes just being single as a parent, you're going to feel more resourced. Is like your light is kind of what lights up the kid. Right. That's it. There's like, it's contagious in that sense. And so the more thriving the parents are, that just overflows onto the kids. It just totally does. Right. Because they're awash in that energy in their nervous system. And I think that's a really important thing that gets missed sometimes on the stability side of things. Right. Where they haven't had to change houses, they haven't had to change schools, but like, what's the actual energetics in the nervous system of the relationships in the house? Right. Because that stuff that just gets. It gets encoded. That's. That's the truth. It gets woven in there. And so this idea of, yeah, you know, is the couple in love? Are they thriving? Are they modeling, you know, healthy disagreements, healthy flirting, healthy love? Those are all such important lessons that we just soak up as kids.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I. I'm getting this image of what you're describing of like, the good enough marriage. Like, it's good enough. It's fine. Right? It's the energy of fine. It's okay. Things are okay. And it's like, if you think of it as a battery, it's like, it's like, at 30%, it's okay. It's fine versus, say, the parents split up and now you. There's room to be at 100%, right. Maybe someone's not at 100% all the time, but sometimes they are. And there's so much more expression and regard and joy that's available that it's like, oh, wow, the spikes up to 10, the spikes up to 100%. The kids get to see and witness and be around, and there's just more aliveness versus the good enough. Like, the vibration of good enough is not that inspiring. And like you said, I think it does sort of teach the kids. This is how life is. Life is. Life is good enough. It's okay. Versus life is expensive and tremendous. And sometimes it's really difficult, and we can do hard things and we're resilient. And then look at. Look at this joy that we have. Look at this picnic we went on. Like, and we're laughing and we're having fun and we're connected and we're playing a game, and I'm tickling you, and it's fun. You know, there's those moments, 10 versus it's just sort of a three all the time. It's okay.

Jason Lange: It's vital.

Melanie Curtin: But he's alive.

Jason Lange: There's a vitality to it, I think, that comes through when there's a passionate, connected intimacy.

Melanie Curtin: Yes.

Jason Lange: Between the parents. That that's what kind of kickstarts the whole engine, I think. And if that's not there. Right. That's where things kind of go awry. Or if it is just fighting or friction or blaming or, you know, another one we've seen of just like. Yeah, there was just no, like, no sex. Right. And then sex becomes something that I just. Part of my nervous system doesn't understand or go for value because my parents didn't have it. Right. Because you don't really need that. It's like, no, you fucking need that. And when that's there, it vitalizes the whole. Whole system of everyone in it. And so, again, you know, what we're saying here is you don't have to make a choice either way. It's totally up to you. But to know that there's costs on both sides in what. You know, I think the thing to really think about is, like, what is the energy of. Of the system my child's nervous system is being immersed in every day? Right. Is it friction? Is it disconnection. Is it just. Yeah, that kind of gray. Well, I do my thing, she does her thing and that's enough, right? Which isn't really intimacy of any kind. And I think that's just an important thing to be aware of. And you know, I said I'd share a strategy. And one thing I think can really help when this moment happens is just the cleanness in the heart of knowing I really did, like, I really did try to make this work. Right. I think there's a point a lot of guys we've worked with that it finally clicks that like I fucking showed up, I did everything I possibly could to and it didn't work. So now I feel in integrity walking away, right. Or ending that the context of that relationship in. We're really big on this idea of containers in our program which we teach men. And one strategy is, is, is the all in if you haven't tried it, right. And what I mean by that is setting a container of like, you know, three to six to nine months of really saying, I'm just taking this off the table, me leaving. So I'm just going to be all in and try to take responsibility for 100% of what I might be doing to cause, you know, this friction in the relationship. Right. And that's not an easy thing to do. And that's not going to be something all men are willing to do, truth be told. Like, that's a tall order to take 100% responsibility for all the ways I may be trying to contribute and then trying to really lead my partner through counseling or through couples programs or all the different things we could try that, you know, within that container of I'm going to take leaving the relationship off the table, so we're just not in that red flag zone for a little while and try it. And then almost always I found there's a point where it's like, yeah, wow, I really gave it my all and it wasn't enough. We're just not compatible in some sense. It's even depersonalized. And it's just like, we can't make this work. So it's time to move on and create something new, a new opportunity for myself and for my family unit.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's so well said. And if you are listening and you do want support or you're interested, you should take our free training. And, and I just want to be explicit about the fact that we do work with men in this position. We've worked with men who are, who've been divorced for years. Who are recently divorced or who are trying to figure it out. So if you're in that position, you can get support wherever you are. It doesn't have to be. I've done the thing. I'm already past the place. I've got it figured out. You can get support at whatever stage you're at because there's different, you know, there's different strategies, and there's different things that you need to be processing at different stages, you know, depending on where you are. We have, you know, men that we're working with that are married, trying to figure it out. They're like, I'm evaluating. Is this a healthy relationship? Is this a healthy marriage? Where am I showing up? Where am I not? And then we have men that are recently divorced who are like, I've never dated. I. You know, I was. I married this person and my early 20s and didn't really know who I was at that point. And now I'm in my, you know, late 30s or early 40s. Getting back out there, like, wherever you are in your journey, there is support that's available. And I think that's important because a lot of it is about, you know, not reinventing the wheel like Jason. You've worked with mentors all through your sort of personal growth journey that knew more than you did at that stage. Right. And there was really. There was something really powerful about that, about not trying to figure it out all alone. And I think that's. That's just something I wanted to touch on, because I think that's something that I wish I'd had in my history of. I wish I'd had someone who'd been there or someone who could have helped so that it could have just gone a little bit faster.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And I think that's one of the key things that a lot of the guys that work with us end up experiencing. You know, if they are in a relationship or a marriage and they're in that, like, I can't figure this out phase or I'm not sure is the clarity that it's often much clearer to those around us that know us and trust us and care about us, what's really going on and what the right answer is. It's kind of hard to explain, but it's. You know, we can be in doubt. We will often get so immersed in the system of our relationship. You know, one of the upside. One of the things we've talked about in the last months is, you know, the ability of men to tolerate a lot and for the new normal to be kind of not be normal, right? Oh, my parents fought a lot, right. It's just, boom. All human beings can do that. But there's something about suddenly having, you know, a tribe of brothers and us as coaches that as your stories come out and as the experience you're having comes out, usually it's pretty clear to people around you that's like, wow, it just really feels like this just isn't going to work. You know, I really see you put it in, put in the time, put in the effort, or, you know, sometimes with guys it's like, oh, you know, kind of seems like actually, no, you haven't yet fully showed up in a way that I think you'd feel good about walking away right now. And there's something about the power of that community and then just the relief, a lot of our guys experience of just having other guys to talk to about the process, right. Of how they got through it or what worked for them or, you know, all the different steps and all the accumulated wisdom that comes out from that of like, oh, shit, this decision, that's probably amongst the most important ones I have to make in my life. Like, I'm not alone in that. Right. I don't have to be alone in that decision and the repercussions of that. So I know that as I do make those decisions because I've kind of gotten the support of the tribe and the community and the coaching, I can feel even more relaxed in knowing it was the right call.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I was really. I was really touched. Some of our guys were talking the other night and one of them said, I chased my wife for 20 years and I never found her. And there were at least two other men on the call that could relate to that experience. Just chasing and constantly trying to reach out and not. And having the other person turn away and just knowing, like, I'm not the only person who's been there for that long. You know, just the experience of doing that, sort of extending your hand and having someone turn away is so painful. And then to have that happen repeatedly is so painful. And to know someone else was there and has been through that, I just. That's invaluable.

Jason Lange: Game changer. Like it literally, we see guys, bodies change on our calls. Sometimes, you know, we're on video. And the when that space resonates of like, oh, shit, I wasn't the only one. It's like, can feel the weight. It's not that it's not painful, but there's something about it. It's now Being held in a communal space by others that literally walked the same path or understood or resonate in some way, it totally transforms things. And for a lot of our guys, it also releases them from some kind of, from a lot of shame of like, oh, I thought I, you know, I was the only one so messed up to be in this kind of dynamic. And we find time and time again the things that guys bring in that they think they're the only one or something. There's almost always someone else in our group who has shown up with a similar thing. And the magic of that is uncanny. And what it does to liberate us from like, oh, okay, this is a thing that happens. I don't have to be so hard on myself.

Melanie Curtin: Oh, yeah. I think that's a good place to kind of wrap up this discussion. And if you are interested in, in our free training, if you're interested in going deeper than the podcast, I would recommend it. And you can find that at Evolutionary Men Slash Dear Men. Evolutionary Men Slash Dear Men.

Jason Lange: Absolutely. There's some great stuff in there. And one of the cool things about how Mel and I work with men is a lot of guys we work with are in more the dating phase. Like we said, we work with guys that are married, divorced, getting back like all phases of the cycle. And the amazing thing I certainly know firsthand these days is all those tools we help guys develop for early dating are even more important in long term relationship in terms of keeping it vital, keeping it alive, keeping it connected.

Melanie Curtin: Great point. Hey everyone, if you are a frequent listener, you are already familiar with our training. Jason and I offer a free training and you can find that at Evolutionary Men Training if you're interested in going deeper than the podcast. But what I wanted to update you on was that if you want to go even deeper and you're ready to do a live event, Jason is leading a live event for our community. We just opened it up to the public yesterday. And that is at the end of July. It's the last weekend of July in Northern California. You can find more information at Evolutionary Men Retreat. I will be there. So if you've been wanting to check out the work in person, go deeper, get connected to other men who care who are doing the work, and facilitators who care and are doing the work, please check that out at Evolutionary Men Retreat.