All right, well, this was a fun one. My wife Violet and I got to sit down with Ray and Jean on Couples Synergy, and we went deep pretty quickly. We talked about how we met (including Violet's dream where I apparently showed up before we'd even connected in person), our early relationship conflicts around commitment, and what it's been like building our careers while growing together as partners.
A big chunk of the conversation landed on the work I do with men around embodiment. For so many guys, the default is to live in our heads, trying to fix and problem-solve when what our partners actually want is presence and connection. We talked about the whole nice guy pattern versus what it means to be a kind man, someone who can stand in his power AND his heart simultaneously. Ray brought up the biological piece too, how men tend to compartmentalize, and we explored what it looks like to move beyond that without just swinging to the opposite extreme.
Violet and I also got into polarity and how we keep the erotic friction alive in our relationship, especially when we're cohabitating, co-parenting, running businesses together. It's this paradox where intimacy requires closeness, but turn-on requires difference. So we've had to learn how to intentionally dial that up when the moment is right, how I can drop into more masculine presence so she can relax into her feminine and open. That dance is ongoing work for us, but it's powerful.
If you're navigating what it means to be a man in relationship today, or you're trying to figure out how to show up with both strength and vulnerability, this conversation hits on a lot of that. Check it out wherever you listen to podcasts, and if any of this lands for you, reach out. I work with men one-on-one and in groups around this exact territory.
Jason
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Host: Take a girl and a guy and.
Jason Lange: They fall madly in love and form a family.
Host: Sprinkle in some counseling degrees and a doctorate. A dream of transforming relationships as we know it. And 20 years later, we give you.
Jason Lange: Power couple Dr. Ray and Jean Khadkotian. And this is their podcast, Couples Synergy. Welcome back to another episode of couple synergy with Dr. Ray and Jean. Hi, I'm Dr. Ray.
Host: And I'm Jean. And this is our podcast about love, marriage and relationships.
Jason Lange: Please check us out [email protected] or on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, and LinkedIn. It's a mouthful @couplesynergy. And please subscribe to our podcast, leave us a review, or send us any suggestions on topics you'd like to hear more about. And now on to Couple Synergy, an in depth look at love, marriage and relationships, where we bring you our experience helping thousands of couples transform their relationships for over 25 years.
Host: Everyone says you should work on your relationship, but nobody teaches us how. So we've created this podcast to teach people what they can do, to create the relationship they've always dreamed of with.
Jason Lange: The partner they fell in love with. On today's episode, we welcome Jason Violet Lang. Jason is a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, evolutionary guide, and a certified no More Mr. N Guy Coach. Violet is the host of Violet Lang's Pleasure Path podcast, and she helps smart, spiritual women thrive in love and in life. Thank you so much, Jason and Violet, for being on our podcast today. So excited to be here.
Host: Yeah, thank you.
Jason Lange: So, you know, before we get into the work that you guys do, can you guys tell our audience a little bit of yourselves? All right, how old are you? How long have you been together? And, well, I guess we're going to get into what you do for a living, but just let's start with that.
Host: Yeah. So we're both 43, we've been together for eight years, married for six and a half, and we have a four year old daughter. And kind of a cosmic love story about how we met. And our relationship is definitely the foundation for the teaching and the work that we do in the world because there's always new material, deeply committed to individual growth and growing as a couple.
Jason Lange: And we met in 2015, got married in 2017, and no end in sight. So things are going great and we're committed to doing the work to make it work.
Host: Can you tell us the story of how you met? I would love to. Um, so I was at the time, had just started dating someone but it didn't feel like the right fit. He was really sarcastic, and I have a very sensitive heart. And so I had been, you know, meditating and praying and trying to figure out, do I stay with this person who seems perfect on paper, in quotations, even though it's not feeling great for my heart, or do I let this person go? And one of the nights that I was contemplating this, I had a dream. And I did not know he was a real life person at the time, but Jason came to me in that dream. He put his hand on my heart and said, joe, the guy I was dating, Joe's a 10 and you're a 100. What are you doing with this guy? So I woke up laughing, thinking, okay, God, you know, message delivered. I don't know who this guy was, but I just. I woke up laughing. Then I fell back asleep. And then three weeks later, I was at a meetup event on lucid dreaming, and this guy approaches me, and I say to the woman next to me who I had just met that night, oh, my God, that's the guy I had a dream about a few weeks ago. She's like, okay. And I did not tell him that story the first time we met because I thought it might freak him out. But I did tell him on our first date, and he was very receptive. He was like, oh, I was claiming you before I even met you. Yeah.
Jason Lange: Do you remember astral traveling that night, Chase? I had an experience we've kind of pieced together probably about the same time she had that dream. I was doing some pretty deep inner work and had a pretty make or break situation where I was like, you know what? I'm done chasing. I had been kind of chasing some women. It wasn't really working out. And had this deep inner experience of, you know what? Instead of like, I'm going to chase women, I just had this thing of like, I'm ready to be met. Just, I'm ready to be met. I'm doing my work. I'm available for relationships. So just whoever's out there, meet me. And we kind of pieced together. I'm like, doing this deep work one night, and that's the night she had the dream. And a couple weeks later, we came together. So we like to think that, yeah, there was something happening in the magic sphere. What were you thinking when you were approaching her that day at the conference? Very attracted to her and very curious. Through the whole room, just through some of the sharing, it had become very clear that she was very deep. And one of the things I got clear about from my previous relationship, which had a lot of love in it, but some just deeply missing pieces. And some of them were around growth. And I quickly was very impressed just from what she had shared in the evening of, wow, this is someone who's really deep and committed to their growth path. And to me, that was really attractive.
Host: How long was it before you knew this was your person? I mean, I knew we had this cosmic love story, but I had been burned in dating quite a bit. And even in relationship where I was probably spiritually bypassing, getting ahead of myself, telling all my friends, oh, my gosh, she's the one after only like three days. And I think some people do have that experience. They have like an instant download of this is my person. But because I had thought that was true and wasn't true and had stayed in relationships where I wasn't getting my needs met because I had this preconceived notion they were my person, I don't think I really knew until we got engaged. Then I was like, oh, yeah, okay, this is my person. So I think maybe I had a little bit of trust issues in terms of just really letting that sink in until it felt really committed.
Jason Lange: And I knew pretty early on that this was somewhat special because we actually had some conflict come up very early in our relationship around where we were going and directions. And the thing that stood out to me was how willing to stay connected through the conflict she was with me, which I had never experienced before. And that was like, wow, this. This feels really different. Like, there's a lot of tension here right now, but we're like, still in it with each other. So I knew it was something really special. And then, you know, I think it was within eight months we were at a festival and had some amazing experiences. And I was just like, wow. Yeah, okay. It came to me very suddenly in my body of like, what am I waiting for? Like, this is a yes. This is someone I can go the distance with, so to speak. And hadn't even planned on it, but just within 30 seconds was like, oh, I'm gonna ask you to marry me. Boom. The rest is history. Do you remember what that early conflict was about? We sure do. Because I was coming out of a five year relationship and I was a pretty late bloomer. So I hadn't had a ton of relationships or experiences. When I came out, I was like, I not ready to dive into something. And I was more of wanting to kind of date around and have some experiences and not necessarily get into a closed relationship right away. And she was not right. That's not where she was at initially. And so I had this really interesting tension of like, wow, like, I want to honor where I'm at, and there's something here that I've never experienced before. And we kind of just had to hold that tension with each other for, I don't know, weeks, months. And again, it was, you know, in a paradoxical way, it was the willingness to stay connected to me in that tension that completely transformed things. And it turns out, sounds like our early conflict, our first early conflict is exactly that. Yeah, I think it's in some sense, for the. Whoever's holding the masculine in a relationship, sometimes they want to wait longer to commit, you know, but in the end, it became very clear, like, oh, yeah, I'm down to close this down.
Host: Did you ever think about walking away at that point? We had a really strong connection on our second date, and that's where this kind of came up because I asked some pretty direct questions like, do you want a relationship? And what are you looking for? And I revealed, you know, I'm looking for a relationship. I want to be a mom someday. I want to have two kids. Like, I was. I was in a phase where I wasn't dating for fun. I was really dating to find a partner. And it came out, you know, that he wasn't ready to get in a relationship, Although he did want one eventually and he did want kids eventually. And so I had texted him the next day saying, I just don't think our timing is aligned, but I wish you all the best. I've really enjoyed connecting with you. And he said, well, I hope our timing aligns sometime in the future. And then I think a day or maybe two days later, I was just doing some very, like, restorative yoga, and I was in a heart opener, and I was just in a stretch that was opening my heart. And I had this sense like, you know, maybe it's okay to play this relationship moment by moment, as long as I can honor my boundaries, as long as I can take care of myself in the process and not get too far ahead or get too resentful of him. You know, I didn't want to just beat him up throughout the time, but I didn't want to neglect my own needs. So then I reached out and said that. I said, I'm willing to let this be a moment by moment relationship as we discover, you know, what this is and what's possible. And maybe this is going into too much of the Weeds. But we dated for, like six weeks and had a really good connection. And every week or so I'd be like, okay, so, you know, how are you feeling about things? And where is this going? And he was still just not sure. So I was like, I think in order to take really good care of myself, I need to date you, but I also need to be dating other people. I'm not going to be, like, physical with anyone else, but I'm going to maybe get coffee with people or just kind of make sure I'm not just putting all my eggs in this basket because it's not right now aligned with.
Jason Lange: What I'm looking for.
Host: So that was super painful for me. Really painful for him. I only went on, like, two dates, and they weren't people that I ended up obviously wanting to connect with. But a few weeks after that, he had another experience where he was like, oh, I actually think I want to be exclusive. I'm ready. So at that point, my heart was a little bit bruised, so I was like, I need a week or two just to really make sure and feel into this. So we stayed connected. We were still seeing each other. We're still talking on the phone every day, all of that. But we did go through this kind of interesting process. And then, you know, a few weeks after he had said, I want to be exclusive, I had then said, yeah, I'm ready. I feel that way, too. I trust you, and let's do this.
Jason Lange: What was it about, you know, your partner that you fell in love with that signified to you? This was different.
Host: So many things, you know, I had been telling my therapist at the time and some of my friends, too. You know, I'm really looking for a man of integrity. Like, it's less about some of the surface things that our culture might tell us is really important. You know, even though he's successful, like how much they make or what kind of car they drive, or all this superficial masculine that's out there. Not that I had fallen prey to that too much, but I think I wasn't always clear on my values. I wasn't dating based on my values. So I was crystal clear. I wanted someone of integrity, and I wanted someone who's deeply practiced, who is committed to their own personal growth. And so the night that we met, actually, we were having this great conversation, and then a group of us was going to go to a bar after the event, and he said, oh, you know, it's like , and I haven't done my meditation for today, so I need to get it done by midnight. So I'm not going to go. And even though it really pissed me off, because I thought, what? You're having this great connection. You don't know this yet, but I just, you know, I met you in a dream three weeks ago, and I knew. I was like, oh, this is a person of integrity. He has a commitment to daily meditate. And even if it's and he just met this woman that he's connecting with, he's going to honor that. So that, to me, just really was one of the most pivotal moments. Yeah.
Jason Lange: And, yeah, for me, it was, like I said, her clear commitment to practice and growth and her play, her fun, her wildness, in a good way, in terms of just being very expressive. And as someone who is not particularly, at that time, was not particularly expressive, it was really nice to be around someone who just had full access to their emotional self and didn't really hold that back. And I also really liked that just early on, I got a sense through some of our time spent together, she was resourced. And what I mean by that is she was resourced. She had friends, she had a therapist. She just. She had people on her team, which I hadn't always been in relationships with that before, where it was just me and my partner, which puts a lot of stress on that relationship. So feeling that she was resourced, that she had so much emotion and energy and play, and just the fact that, yeah, she very vulnerably kept opening herself in trust to me, you know, even when it wasn't easy for her, I was like, wow, this is someone who's really showing up and taking a risk on me. And I had never really had a partner fully trust me in that way before.
Host: And I'll also just say, I mean, I shared that pivotal moment about his integrity, but I could feel that his care for me. There were many times early on and later on where he would say, I'm not going anywhere. I'm here for you. We're just getting started. And that was so comforting because I had my own fears of abandonment and rejection. And so even when things were uncertain, I could tell how much he cared about me.
Jason Lange: That's great. So what is the period of time of dating before you guys get engaged?
Host: Yeah, I mean, it was only about five months after we became exclusive until we got engaged, so that was maybe a bit fast. But I think we had done so much, so much work through these hiccups and conflicts getting there that that felt really appropriate to me. And then we Got married basically, like a year after that or a little over a year after that.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Did you get any feedback from people that it was quick, as you said? Actually, no. Yeah, I think it was because I'm not somebody who really jumps into things. They've got compulsively so, you know, when I make a decision, people tend to trust it. Like, oh, wow, you thought about it. And even though I hadn't had like a ton of, you know, just by the numbers dating experience, what really revealed itself in that to me was I was super clear about what I wanted. I had had enough dating experience to know what I ultimately wanted in a partner. And so when it showed up, I was like, well, they're 36, almost 36 at that time. I was like, wow, okay, well, it's here. Like, that was part of my thing. It was just like, what else would I be waiting for? This is a partner who's willing to really dive into the process of relationship with me that I'm attracted to. She's available, she's resourced. And so in a way, it was quick, but in a way, I think we had both done enough foundational work on ourselves to be very clear about what we wanted.
Host: Were you guys already doing the jobs that you have now back then? Kind of. And not really, you know, I was doing coaching, but I was doing business coaching, executive coaching. And some of those coaching clients were asking me about their personal life, I think, because they could tell I had been going through so much in my own personal life. I'm a survivor of sexual trauma, so I was working through that. You know, I had a divorce that was basically a sexless marriage in my 20s. Got married really young. And there's nothing wrong with that. I just really didn't have the skills or the tools. And neither did my ex husband. So I of course, feel like some guilt about that. But I was doing a hodgepodge of things, including teaching yoga, executive coaching, a little bit of personal coaching, Reiki. And then as our relationship was solidifying, it became clear that I wanted to study love coaching more. So then I took a training specifically on love and relationship and intimacy coaching. And it kind of went from there.
Jason Lange: I was not doing it at all. I was doing it for myself. So I was involved in men's work, men's groups, just for my own healing. I had been for about 10 or 15 years when I met her. And I was leading some other mor. Just general kind of connection events here in Los Angeles. I was not working with men specifically. I was not doing the coaching work. And that started to come online in our relationship. As I had to start deepening, I was like, wow, this is. This is someone I actually have to show up with. She will not let me just skirt by unconscious like she demands. You know, I'm really present in a good way. And so I had to really up my game, so to speak, in terms of my capacity to show up fully in the relationship, to take care of myself and take care of her. So that led me deeper into the work. And I had been doing some film work. I had been doing some web work when we met. And just in the process of it all, I was like, wow, that stuff drains me. Anytime I'm doing men's work or relationship work, I leave with more energy. I was like, well, what a nice pivot that would be if I could align my income to that. So my income actually brings me energy. And it was like turning the Titanic. And I didn't make some very great decisions early on and burned the bridges a little too fast. But it's been slow and steady since then, and it's been fun. We've both been growing our businesses and growing together at the same time. At the time that you guys got engaged, Violet, was that a concern for you being married before? And did you have any apprehensions?
Host: It's interesting. I didn't have any apprehensions about, like, Jason or wanting to get married again, but I did have some. I wouldn't say non negotiables. I had some things that were really important to me. So for my first marriage, I had a problem with vulnerability. I wasn't very vulnerable. We didn't have a lot of emotional intimacy. As I mentioned, you know, after, like, the first year we were married for five years, or almost five years after the first year, we had basically no physical intimacy. And I know that part of that is because I had trauma I hadn't addressed. I had some previous sexual trauma that was getting in the way of me really being connected to my partner. And he had his own stuff going on too. You know, we were both flawed humans. Still flawed human. But on one of our early dates, I had explained why my relationship didn't work and what I was committed to doing differently in the future, which is reveal my heart, even when it was uncomfortable. And that I. I wanted to stay connected physically, that no matter what happened with our relationship or our health or having kids or not, it didn't have to necessarily mean intercourse, but I didn't want to lose a sense of physical connection that some sort of Touch was really important to me, and that still is. So I think I trusted that because I had shared that multiple times with him and he had responded in a really loving way and expressed similar values that it seemed like those things wouldn't be a deal breaker. And because we had gone to therapy, or maybe we hadn't gone to therapy, but we had done some, like, workshops together, we had done some different growth experiences together, and then we had gone through that conflict right about, do we. Are we committed or are we not? Do you want relationship? Do you not that I felt like we could get through things as they came up. And I think at some point we even talked about, you know, we. We will go to couples therapy. Like, hands down, we'll go to couples therapy at any time if we need it. And so 2018, like, a year after we got married, maybe even sooner than that. I don't remember exactly when it started, but there was a good six months where we were going to regular couples therapy. And we still have a couple's therapists that we see when we need her, basically, so maybe a few sessions a year, because, of course, things are going to come up. We're getting better and better at working things together. But I think every couple needs something outside of the couple, whether that's their church and their pastor or whether that's their couples therapist or, you know, something that's holding the vision of the couple together. Because I think it's easy for women to drink wine with their girlfriends about their husband or, you know, like, there to become some fractions in the relationship and blaming or sneaking closeness with others as a way to feel justified for the resentment we're feeling towards our partners. So I felt good knowing that we had some shared resources that could support us through the tough times. And. And when he did propose to me, it was really sweet because some of his really close guy friends were there, and one of them said, like, he came up behind Jason, put his hand on his back, and he was looking at me because Jason and I were facing each other. And he said, if this guy ever does anything that hurts you, I want to know, like, you deserve, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I'm committed for him being in integrity with you and all the other guys. There were felt like there was trust in him, trust in his community and his friends, and also trust in these resources that are important, like a therapist.
Jason Lange: I think that's a really important point. You know, having the resources or community that supports the same values, but then also supports the couple, you know, within the framework of those values. And you know, in our society today that that community is not there. Right. You kind of what you're talking about the girls going out and having wine and, you know, complaining about their relationship. That seems to be more of the norm than communities that really support the marital union right through thick and thin. So that's really great to hear that you both have created that community and you continue to, to do that kind of work and enforcing it. Right. And reinforcing it. So that's awesome. Tell us about the progression of your relationship. You guys get engaged and then what? Yeah, we got engaged and we decided to get married about a year later, almost exactly. And that was we. We kind of did two ceremonies, one just for us and then one for our family. So it was kind of the best of both worlds where we had just like a, a stress free fun one and then the kind of more proper one. And they were both really beautiful. We get to celebrate our anniversary twice, which is kind of fun. And then, yeah, we really, we moved in together at that point right after actually. When did we move in?
Host: We moved in together six months after we got engaged and six months before the wedding. So we actually moved in in between.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And that was, I think, what started the deeper layer of work between us, you know, once we were cohabitating and some of my attachment wounding came up and some of our frictions and you know, that, that really important step where you move from like dating mode to actually being partners. Where in dating mode it's like, yeah, you live independently and you come see each other a couple times a week where it's fun and you're doing an activity and you're putting your attention on each other to, you know, at that time still we both work from home, so suddenly we're in the house with each other all day, working, trying to navigate being a couple, financial stresses, like it all just kind of exploded in a sense. And that's when it became clear we needed some additional help. And I got clear I needed to do some additional work on myself and kind of aligned that with wanting to change my career at the same time. So that period, you know, that year after we got married, it was a big shift in terms of, okay, wow, all the initial fun of this is going to be great. We're still connected. It's easy. We just met. The reality check, I think every couple does of, oh yeah. And there's going to be times you're in conflict, there's going to be times where you're not connected. There's going to be times you need outside help. And we've had different seasons where that's been higher in terms of challenge and lower. And I think the most relaxing thing at this point is every time we move through that season, it's like a deeper layer of trust. Oh, yeah, okay. There's going to be times where maybe friction is high between us. We have the tools to navigate that and in a weird way, don't have to fear it as much. So we can just really be real with where we're at in terms of the temperature. And that's just continues to evolve and, you know, deepen us.
Host: What does the term men's empowerment coaching mean? And what kind of man is attracted to that?
Jason Lange: Sure. So it's actually embodiment. Embodiment meaning getting into your body. So for many men, the struggle, right, is we live up here in thoughts, in rumination, and, you know, oftentimes our partner comes to us with some kind of stress or pain or conflict. And many men just by default go right into their heads. Okay, well, let's fix it, let's fix it. Let's fix the problem. Have you thought of this? Have you done this? Have you done this? And it's more that mental place and many, many women, I'm sure you understand, sometimes it's like, well, no, actually I want you to connect to me. I don't want you to fix the problem. Just be here with me. So for a lot of us men, we are trained from a very young age to not actually be connected to our felt body experience. So most of what we call the man box, most of what men are rewarded for in our culture is being disembodied and being disconnected from our bodies. Work harder, don't cry, be tough, don't need anything, don't show weakness. Whether it's athletics, the military, extreme hard labor jobs like disconnect from your body so you can keep working even if it hurts you. That is what many men in our culture are rewarded for. And emotions in my world, they actually start the sensations in our body. So the less connected we are from our bodies, the less connected we are to our emotions. And as well, and as men were taught not how to handle them, how to deal with them, what to do with them. So for many men, the only medicine they know to turn to is booze, porn, weed, tv, things that can numb out their bodies. So embodiment is the practice of teaching men the capacity to come back into their direct felt body experience in the moment and actually be present to really be present with themselves, with their partners, and not just be stuck up in a place of rumination, which tends to actually cause a lot more pain for men long term. Yeah. I think you're talking a lot of the work that's covered in no more Mr. Nice Guy, the book. Right. I do recommend that as reading for a lot of the clients that I work with. And, you know, I think a lot of men don't know that biology is kind of goes against us. Right. That we can only use one hemisphere of the brain at a time biologically, so that that coping mechanism of compartmentalization comes pretty naturally. Right. You know, that. That laser focus. We see a problem, attack it. Let's get back to status quo as quickly as possible. Right. So I. I think it's definitely great work and it's absolutely needed, especially in today's day and age where a lot of men are being raised by women and not. Not by men. Yeah. Yeah. We have very few models for what healthily embodied, integrated masculinity is that causes a lot of pain for men because pretty much out in the culture right now, you hear about all the bad things masculine are, but there's not much talk about, well, okay, and what's the vision of the positive for us to move towards? And without that, men feel lost and confused. Like, well, what am I supposed to do? I don't want to be the macho jerk. Being the nice guy pushover has not gotten me what I wanted. And it actually tends to piss off my partners and my families long term. And the, you know, the kind of more World War II stoic just, I'm here, but I don't share anything. I keep it all locked down inside. That doesn't work either. It shows up, catches up with us in terms of our physicality and our health and our addictions long term. So men are dying, like, literally for a. What's another way of. How can I be connected to my power and my heart simultaneously? And that's kind of the cutting edge that a lot of men are now stepping into, where, yeah, being a nice guy, we shift from that to what me and some of my team call being a kind man. Kind man will, like, stand up for himself and for other people and will actually lean into conflict. That will create more love and truth and safety in the world, which is very different from the nice guy, which is just, you know, usually appease. Appease. Appease. Yeah. There's definitely a need for this evolution of men and women. And I imagine, Violet, you kind of handle the evolution on the other side. Right. Can you talk a little bit about that work?
Host: Yeah, of course there are similarities and differences, I think as women's empowerment and liberation has continued to grow, which are all good things, but a lot of women have been expected then to behave like men. You know, work hard, be a bitch, like, don't care about others. You know, be calm, cool, collected. And social media has exacerbated that and placed a focus on looks and these exterior qualities. And a lot of women are also hurting, not just because they don't feel connected to men or they feel confused about how to meet a high quality guy, but because they've also abandoned the feminine within them. And they might feel only lovable for what they're accomplishing, whether that's raising their family or whether that's doing something at work versus feeling lovable just exactly for who they are. And there's a lot of childhood patterning that can happen where women are expected to be the caretakers or to put other people's needs first or to he put in this weird double standard of like, oh, be attractive but not too sexy. You know, be assertive but not aggressive, be kind, but why aren't you doing better on your schoolwork? You know, like, there's just a lot of pressure on men and women. So it seems like one of the pathways that's happening for female empowerment is to know that just because you can do it all doesn't mean you should or have to. Or that's what makes you lovable. This idea of being the cool girl, of like not letting anything ruffle your feathers and just being able to be okay with things hurting, like taking the pain in the short term to get what you want in the long term. Like, I'm going to date someone who's a jerk because maybe he'll marry me and then I'll feel better about, you know, know myself where I'll feel finally valuable. So it's a lot of similar to his work, helping women to become vulnerable, helping them find pleasure. And pleasure to me is anything that feels good, it doesn't have to be intimate pleasure, but finding pleasure in their bodies, almost demanding to feel good about themselves and their life and not expecting just a partner to make them happy because oftentimes then there's excess expectations. So, oh, you know, we are connected in this way. But why isn't he calling me more? And why didn't he pay for that dinner? And my friend's partner does this and like, really coming back to being able to meet our own needs. And having our partner meet our needs is a great bonus and a requirement, but it can't be the only thing that's filling our cup. So what I'm talking about is really honoring the feminine. Honoring the feminine within ourselves, Honoring the feminine within our bodies, honoring vulnerability, and then being willing to be seen. A lot of people, in my experience, cover up who they really are in order to fit in and then feel starved for real love and affection. So helping people find their unique essence or personality and allowing that to come through in a very direct way, like on the apps or on a date, instead of hiding who we are in order to find, feel accepted, and then maybe picking the wrong partner or them feeling like we're different than who we said that we were and getting into those messes. Yeah. And as I mentioned earlier, there's quite a bit of sexual trauma that women have experienced. Not every woman, but until we acknowledge that and automatically work that through our bodies, there might be ways that we are not fully embracing our full sensuality. Whether you're having an active sex life or not. Like, it's about wholeness and integration and being able to celebrate your womanhood. You know, after the. One of the Super Bowls with Beyonce, and everyone was saying that that's what an empowered woman is. Is that how you would define an empowered woman? I mean, I think that that's unrealistic to look at one particular person and say that they're empowered or not. Also because I don't know that we really know who she is. We know her Persona. We know her songs. I don't know her personally. I think it's more of what people on the inside say about themselves. I don't think we can really say if someone is empowered or not. I think an empowered woman is the one who lives in sovereignty and makes choices that feel in alignment with her heart and is connected. Right. Like, we want to be sovereign and also connected. We want to be cultivating and tending loving relationships, and sometimes that looks like really fierce boundaries. And we don't always have everyone in our life, you know, forever. So. Yeah, I don't. I don't. I think the media likes to latch on, latch onto, oh, that woman's empowered or that woman's not. Almost like a competition. And. And unfortunately, then oftentimes, as women, we're like, oh, that's the template. Okay, I should be like that. And that just takes us further away from our own authentic truth.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I think men and women, you know, alike are searching for that. That model. You know, Jason, as you were saying. Right. This role model that doesn't exist right now because it is a role and a template that hasn't been created yet. Right. It's in the process of evolving. And so the words toxic masculinity and the words women's empowerment has become kind of bastardized throughout the media. Right. And they've been projecting onto what they think it's supposed to be. Right. Or what people think they would want to be. And really, that search is still in the process. That's what I would. I would say.
Host: Yeah, it seems like we're swinging from, you know, the 1950s era and over into something else. And, you know, I asked that question on social media once, and a lot of the responses I got were, I want to do what I want whenever I want to do it. Like, that was their definition of empowerment. And it. And I think it goes back to, Jason, what you were saying about losing that. That certain type of masculinity, that the same thing is happening for women. We're losing that femininity. And, you know, what's. What's in our hearts as women is generosity and compassion and caring about other people. And the. The opposite of I'm going to do what I want when I want, I think, has been bulldozed from way back when. And now we're trying to find some kind of balance, and it's kind of swung pretty far in the other direction. And what we know is that actually leads to anxiety and depression. To be in that place of caring about the self at the expense of others means that you're in a place of the sympathetic nervous system. You're under stress, and you are trying to. It's almost predatory behavior, but defensive for sure. Where. When you're in the parasympathetic nervous system, that is when you want to care about other people and that feels. Fills your heart. And not the. The kind of caring that's codependent and unhealthy, but the real, you know, connection that you guys are talking about.
Jason Lange: Yeah. One of my teachers once said, you know, you want to serve from the overflow. So the idea is we want to take care of ourselves. Or, you know, the other platitude in our culture. Right. Is you got to put the oxygen mask on yourself first. So, you know, nice guys in particular, they'll give from a place of depletion where they're not actually honoring self. So they're prioritizing other people's needs, and they're often neglecting or hurting themselves. And I think there's a parallel to that in a certain type of good girl. The oh, you always gotta be giving and serving while you're suffering. And what we're talking about, and I think what we're all trying to create here is what's the balance in between. So we're resourced and we're. There's a big difference between I feel like I have to give to you in order to be safe. That kind of codependent versus wow, I have so much to give and I'm resourced. I can generously offer this to you from an abundant place. And you know, to us. That's the kind of crux of when a relationship can really be humming in its finest is, oh, you don't need me to take care of you, but I have so much to give. I just want to give to you. Take the day off, go on an adventure. I'll take the kid, you know, whatever it might be. Which is such a different energy because it requires both partners to be totally responsible for themselves actually in terms of self care to have enough energy and presence to show up, to be generous. It's like this great paradox. But when both partners are. Then it becomes this whole new way of being of we can gift these things to each other. And inside of that, in terms of these models, I think part of what we're trying to create and a lot of people are looking for is the old roles don't work. You have to be this way. But what we're maybe moving towards is the ultimate ability is fluidity. In a certain time and place, I can totally drop into solid presence and just take the reins for my wife, for my family, for my kid, whatever that might be. In another place, though, for me, my men's groups, sometimes I need to drop the reins and be a mess and a moat and feel my pain and my fears and the ability to consciously switch back and forth and choose is what's really important. And even in our relationship, right? There's stuff my wife is much better at me doing in terms of some certain types of organizing and finances. And there's other things I'm good at. And I think, you know, 50 years ago, I'm the man. I have to do that. Because if I'm not, then da da, da, da. And part of what we're finding now is no, there's fluidity in there. So I can step forward where my gifts are the greatest, she can step forward where her gifts are the greatest. And in the right time and place, we also know how to switch Gears to keep our chemistry and attraction alive. So I can step more into my masculine energy, she can relax more into her feminine energy. So we have that just juice, in a sense, that then powers the rest of the relationship. A lot of people asked, you know, is our relationships hard work? And we always say, yeah, it is. And it's supposed to be, you know, because what you're talking about is. Is hitting a moving target, right? It's constantly changing. That fluidity. It's alive. It's. It's a. It's a new entity that is being created when. When partners come together. And so that is. That takes time. It takes investment, takes working through things that were. It takes communication, conflict resolution. It takes personal evolution as well as the relationship evolution. So, yeah, this is. This is the new expectation for relationships. We can't just rely on those past roles anymore, which were very static, right? We have to create something new that it's more unique to each relationship. Yeah, that's some great stuff, man. This is really a lot of great work that is absolutely needed because as we've talked about, you know, there is no role modeling for couples today right now. You know, we've been. We've been in the field For, God, 30 years, you know, and, you know, in our field, we've seen the evolution also. And unfortunately, our field has really not caught up. You know, there are a lot of marriage counselors out there that, you know, are really kind of aligned with more the old values, or they are aligned with just this complete opposite of the old values. Right?
Host: And. And creating competition.
Jason Lange: Creating competition. Actually reinforcing transactional relationships. You know, so that. That is just. It's unfortunate. You know, we'd love to see our field kind of catch up with it, but.
Host: So one of the topics that is always popular is our sexuality. Can you talk about that for a few minutes of what you see that is breaking down that intimacy for couples? And what helps?
Jason Lange: Yeah, well, both in our personal relationship and some of the work we do, you know, comes down to this idea that's growing more and more popular of polarity, or how do you generate erotic friction in a relationship, Right? And just the very simple basics of it. Or if you just imagine magnets, right, you have a positive side and you have a negative side. And when they're different, they actually attract each other. They come together, and if they're two the same, they kind of push each other apart, or at worst, they're kind of neutral. And part of what we're having to navigate in this new wave is how do we generate that when we're cohabitating, co parenting, best friends. And the emphasis, the longer you're in a relationship, a lot of times is you have more shared reality, you actually become one. Right. We trust each other, we're one, we're intimate, we're actually together as one. And that paradoxically is the opposite of when you feel deep, electric, turn on for a partner. It's actually because they're different, it's not me. And so a big part of the work we've had to cultivate in our relationship, we're still in process for sure. And that we work a couple zones. How do you generate that into intentional in a relationship? So even though we've been together many years and we live together when the moment is right, do we know how to turn the dial to keep our sex lives vital and engaged and turned on? And that's been a process right of in the right space. Do I know how to drop more into that still present energy for my wife where I could just really become clear and slow down and engage with her and that helps her relax and feel seen and open. And what turns me on the most is when my wife opens particularly her heart, but yeah, sometimes her body. And that's really what like, wow, that brings me a tremendous amount of energy. Now for me to be able to be in a space where she feels comfortable to open, I have to be present. I should be grounded. I can't just be lost in my thoughts and anxious or thinking about the next day. And I do that all the time. We've had to cultivate sometimes better than others, having intentional time where we slow down and get into that relational space with each other. And sometimes that flows into eroticism, sometimes it doesn't. But that's a practice we're committed to long term in our relationship of how do we keep the attraction and turn on alive. And we've had different seasons, right, where we explore new curiosities in our relationship. We both bring different things to each other to keep it, you know, vital in a sense. And as a man, I can speak towards, you know, many men I work with, part of their fear of, you know, they get afraid of commitment. Like, I've been with the same woman for a long time and, you know, I fell prey to this myself. Where in the world I've kind of been trained in what's attractive to the masculine part of all of us is variety. It just means change. It means change. And where a lot of men make a mistake, they think, oh, that means I literally need a variety of women, right. I need to have a different woman in order to be happy. And, you know, what we're committed to in our relationship and the work we do is no, it doesn't have to be a different partner, but it's her willingness to bring a range full of energy through her body, right. Which includes her full emotional experience. Sometimes that's, you know, high, sometimes that's harder stuff. But it's that range that keeps me just incredibly attractive. Never knowing what's going to come through my partner and getting to play with that over the years has been like, you know, probably every 90, 15 months we'll be like, wow, that was the best sex we've ever had. And then to have that keep happening really exciting of like, wow, it can just keep getting deeper and better and more alive in a sense.
Host: Yeah. And I would say that for women in my experience, with the women I work with and myself, it's easy to fall into a pattern of thinking, well, I'm too busy to have sex or I'm too wrapped up with the kids or I'm too tired. And usually that's because there's a part of us that isn't in a more soft, receptive place. Not that we need to be soft and receptive all the time, but we are responsible for knowing our own turn on and for being in a receptive place, place to our partner instead of, he didn't do the dishes today and I've asked him to do this thing and he didn't compliment me on my new outfit or notice my haircut or I'm using some very, like, traditional examples here, but I find that it's very easy for women to lose our turn on, especially as our body changes, our hormones change, our life cycles change, and it can feel like, painful, at least at the beginning, to rediscover what turns us on because it changes. Like what. What brings me pleasure and a desire for intimacy with my partner is slightly different now that I'm a mom and older than it was when we first met. I was probably more, you know, sexually available because I didn't have all these other things on my mind. So for some women, it's about having some alone time. Like, okay, I need some alone time to come back to myself, to recharge. For other women, it's about acts of generosity or acts of service. Like, oh, he did the dishes, he took out the trash. Like, I feel taken care of. For some women, it's more about the sensuality. Like, oh, we had a Nice bottle of wine. He lit candles. I feel like more sensual in my body. So I find there's not really a prescription of how to like find your turn on as a woman, but it's more of a self discovery journey. But that if you can remain open to your partner sexually and have a few ideas of what turns you on, then you can be, be generous with your partner. I know you said that earlier, Jean, and I really love that. I think when women can be emotionally and sexually generous, we are in our like most fullest self. And so sometimes, probably has been like a year since I've done this. But sometimes we'll, I'll tell him like or no, it wasn't a year. I forget. I think we did this a few months ago. I will tell him like, what's a song you would like to see me dance to? So he gets to pick out any song and I will dance to it. And you know, it might not be like the most seductive dance in the world, but I'm willing to like let him see my body as it moves through the living room. I could be fully clothed, I could be wearing lingerie, it doesn't matter. But I know that that's like a turn on for him. So I'm willing to be vulnerable and like feel fat and feel, you know, all the things that I have feelings about myself because I want to be sexually generous with my partner. It's important to me. Or like one time our relationship had been a little sexually flat and so I was like reading to him a quote out of a book because we love reading the same books and self help books and all of that. And he was in the shower and he opened the shower and I was reading the book with my glasses on, but I was totally naked and he was like, whoa. So just like little playful surprises. But I can't do that if I'm stressed about our daughters, stressed about my business, if I'm overworking, if I'm caretaking my clients. I don't have good boundaries with my clients if I'm too wrapped up in my own shame about my body or my experiences. So I do think like self touch is a woman. Even if that's just like putting on your lotion in the morning or when you are taking a shower, just like, oh yeah, this is my body. It's different than it used to be, but I still love it and it's still worthy of being seen by my partner and worshiped by my partner. Yeah, it's interesting. I think in this day and age it's so easy for us to be exposed to lots of naked women and then our partner doesn't get to see us, you know, and that we hear that a lot and that's, that that's a really big thing. You know, this idea that, you know, men shift at puberty and then stay that way the rest of their lives. But women, we're different. We're different after we have sex for the first time. We're different after we give birth, different after menopause. And so it's like there is no manual out there for how to please your woman because we're like the wind and we just sort of evolve and change all the time. So I definitely hear what you're saying. That's, that's a really good analogy.
Jason Lange: And I think just to tie back to what she shared about earlier in our relationship, there's a commitment to prior prioritize sex for us. Some seasons that's higher than other, just depending on our life circumstances. But it's something we're always committed to come back to. Because what we do find is when we're connecting sexually, there's so much more bandwidth in the system for the rest of our stresses and everything. It's just, it kind of makes it all work when we can really connect and prioritize our connection in that way. Which yes, sometimes it's sexually, sometimes it's more sensual or non erotic. But the idea is, you know, having a family and leading communities, like, it really starts from our connection. If we're disconnected, that shows up everywhere else for us. So we really work to prioritize connection. And when we can't get there ourselves, that's when we turn to outside help of like, hey, we need help. We're at a place where I don't know how to lead us back to connection. She doesn't know how. So we need some support. But it's that commitment to it I think is really valuable for us and that we really suggest to partners that, you know, again, how much sex you have, that's up to you as a couple. But every couple's got kind of their amount. Right.
Host: And it changes, I have to say. I mean, like, we don't have nearly as much sex as we had when we first met, but there's. We still have deep sexual experiences together and we can trust that we can reconnect in that way.
Jason Lange: Yeah, but we're committed to having enough to keep our relationship vital in a sense, because I've worked with quality so many men. Quality, not quantity. Yeah, well, I've worked with so many men who have gotten into sexless marriages and, you know, 20, 30 years, and they're just dying inside, like a basic human need. And they, you know, they're nice guys, so they often start to tell this story. Well, there's something wrong with me that. Because my wife thinks she. I just want sex. But from almost every man I work with, it's not just about the sex. It's about the connection they feel after the sex. Right. So the sex is. It's about who you get to be after. Is something I heard afterwards, like, who will be. Who will we be after we have sex and connect? That's kind of what makes it meaningful. And it takes work. And, you know, for nice guys in particular.
Host: Wow.
Jason Lange: My sexuality is not something to hold in chain. This an important part of my human experience. And I want to be connected to my partner because when that connection's online, like we said, for us, it just feels generative. We have more energy to put out into the world more love, more service.
Host: Which is the opposite of what you learn in pornography, which is what a lot of people learn about sex, unfortunately.
Jason Lange: And just the media in general, you know, they just kind of are kind of creating this unrealistic expectation and. And just making people feel more shame in their relationships.
Host: You know, one of the things you say is, like, a wedding ring is like a bungee cord, and you can get so much distance, but at some point it's too much and it drives you back together. And that weaves a really strong pattern in a relationship and in a bond. So, last question. What is it that your partner does that, you know, they love you?
Jason Lange: You know, this kind of might sound generic, but she'll appreciate me. And just so you know, maybe I've been working hard or a lot's been going on, she'll take the time, usually, you know, spontaneously, just like, hey, I really. I really noticed you've been helping out more around the house. Or I see what just. I see you. I see what you've been doing, and I appreciate that. Even when it's imperfect, right? Even if I've dropped the ball sometimes. And just that acknowledgement of her willingness to acknowledge how hard I'm trying in our relationship and in our family, in our life, even when it's imperfect, just. I mean, it just hits me like, well, my whole body softens, and it's like, oh, wow, great. I got even more to give now, just being recognized for how much I'm trying.
Host: And I think for me, it's Just his unconditional acceptance. You know, I. I think a lot of women will probably relate to this. Like, there's days I just feel frustrated or like, oh, I just feel gross, or. We always. We always say, like, if there were T shirts for men and women in our complaining mode, for men, it would be tired, grumpy, and burdened. And for women, it would be, like, gloated, frustrated, and unloved or something. And so even if I say, like, oh, no, I'm frustrated that you were late from that call, and I really wanted you to get off that call sooner because I was feeling overwhelmed with Ruby. He's just like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. I totally get that, why you might feel that way. Just feel, like, so frumpy and bleh and like, no, you look beautiful. Like, he genuinely accepts me as I am and isn't afraid to comfort me. And that just really relaxes me. That's interesting. You're talking about that, how we feel about ourselves. And I'm in the process of putting a thing together for my sister who's turning 60, and looking back at pictures through the years and knowing at the time I didn't feel good about what I look like and looking at the pictures saying, I actually was fine, you know, and we have such a distortion, and it has really nothing to do with what we see in the mirror. And I would put on that shirt ugly. You just have this ugly feeling sometimes, and it has nothing to do with what you actually look like.
Jason Lange: I had an image of those T shirts, but at the bottom has an arrow. So I'm with him and I'm with her.
Host: That's cute. You know, people have been sharing their stories since the beginning of time to bond and heal and grow. And we hope that by you guys sharing your stories story, it's enriched your lives and the lives of our listeners. Yeah, I hope so too. Thank you for letting us share and for being such great hosts.
Jason Lange: Yeah, no problem. And, you know, before we sign off, where can our audience get to know a little bit more about the work that both of you do? Yeah, for me, it would be at my website, Evolutionary Men. It's not dot com, it's dot men. And you can see a bunch of my writings and the ways I support men. And I have my own podcast for men on there as well, where that's probably the most direct line to the work I'm up to.
Host: And I'll just tell a very quick story before I share mine, which is we were talking about empowerment, and one of the most empowering things I did was when my daughter was born to really cut down my work and not post on social media anymore and just kind of get off that bandwagon. So my website is very out of date, but you can still find me there. It's violet language.com I've shifted less from like my marketing and promotion and really just into my client work and taking care of my family and myself. So the best way to actually get a hold of me is to email [email protected] and there is an E at the end of lang and we can just have an email conversation or even hop on the phone for 15 minutes and see how I can support you. And if I can't, I'll send you some books or resources to dive into. So I'm a little more interested in just like the one on one connection.
Jason Lange: Great, great. And we'll put all those links in the show notes as well. I want to thank you guys for being on our podcast today and and we want to also thank all of our audience for tuning in to Couple Synergy. Our passion is in helping couples and people have happy and healthy relationships and this podcast gives us a fun way of bringing our knowledge and expertise to you, our listeners. For all of you listening, please let us know how you enjoyed the show. If you have any questions, comments or topic suggestions, please email [email protected] for more information about Couple Synergy and our programs such as Relationship 101, the Home Study Course, the Next Couples Relationship Enhancement Weekend and our premier couples coaching program called Couple to Couple. Look us up [email protected] and if you.
Host: Know someone who could benefit from this episode, please download it and share it and thank you for listening.
Jason Lange: Until next time, synergize your life and synergize your love.
Host: You have been listening to couple synergy.
Jason Lange: With Dr. Ray and Jean Kadkodian. Couple Senergy was recorded, edited and produced.
Host: By Dr. Ray and Jean Ketkotian. Voiceover and music entitled Breathe and Let Go was recorded and composed by Gina Gonzalez.
