I had a fascinating conversation with Melanie Curtin that sits right in this impossible paradox: men are supposedly obsessed with their penises, yet carry profound shame about the most basic thing penises do. We live in a culture that simultaneously expects men to be sexual beings while making them feel fundamentally broken when their bodies respond naturally.
This conversation went deep into how much shame men carry around their bodies just doing what bodies do. We talked about the two types of erections, the constant tracking so many guys do from middle school onward, and how that shame creates this fundamental conflict with our own sexuality. What struck me most was realizing how boner shame is just this crystallization of so much bigger stuff around men's relationship to their own desire, their bodies, their sense of being okay just as they are.
The real work here is moving from shame to actually celebrating that our bodies are healthy and working. We talked about how the antidote to shame is always connection, bringing it out of the dark. For nice guys especially, there's this conflation that happens where sexual energy itself becomes bad, rather than recognizing it's what we do with that energy that matters. The shift we're calling for is from contraction and hiding to relaxation and trust, both in ourselves and in the people around us.
What makes this conversation matter is that when men can be okay with their own sexuality, when we can stop betraying ourselves to appease others, that's actually what creates real trust and connection. Our willingness to be in our truth, including being sexual beings, is a gift to the people around us.
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Melanie Curtin: Just grief, I guess, around, like, man, we've taken this thing that's totally normal and actually quite a good thing, and we've turned it. We've vilified it, we've turned it into this evil thing. And how do we undo that? Right? How do we. How do we make it? How do we normalize the boner? Hello, everyone. Welcome to another Jason episode. Fan favorite. Thanks for being here. We are talking about boner shame today. Ah, it's such a great phrase. Yeah, we wanted to record this episode because this is. This comes up, hahaha. For a lot of our clients. And it's something that is also right on the heels of another episode about sexual shame. Last week's episode on Overcoming Religious Programming had a lot to do with sexual shame. So this is another sort of layer or aspect of it. I think that whether you had a religious background or not, there's a lot of shadow stuff around how we shame men in our culture around their bodies and just a natural part of their bodies, which is erections. So, yeah, this is another episode where I pulled a bunch of our. Our men. So we're going to bring in some of their voices as well. But let's just start with your experience. What to you is boner shame and what has been your experience of it?
Jason Lange: Yeah, so I actually heard this a couple weeks ago on another podcast, and it just hit me like a lightning bolt of how crystal. Like what a crystallization it is of so much around men's sexuality and that, like, because there's sexual shame and then it's just epitomized in boner shame. So this. This sense of I have to, you know, as men, so many of us have experienced it, and certainly I did of like, I gotta hide my boner. I have to hide my erection because if someone sees that I'm turned on, that even I'm not turned on, but I have an erection, they might assume I'm turned on. And then it brings up all this kind of shame around what I'm, you know, what my body is doing is wrong. And what's wild about this one is, yeah, there's religious aspects, but there's also just cultural aspects, right? From women, and most particularly, I would say, from other men. Men mocking men when they get hard or get a turn on. And it creates this deep inner conflict for men because suddenly our body is doing something and we're in resistance to it or we feel ashamed of it. And that just goes right to the root of, you know, how we relate to our sexuality. So I know for me, you know, it was something I had to track. And I think for a lot of guys, we track particularly in school, you know, once kind of puberty hits and we're in school and, you know, there's a couple of types. You know, there's really two types of erections for men. There's an erection that comes from actually being turned on, so we're aroused. And then there's also just the kind of natural erections that our body cycles through throughout the day to just keep blood flow going right to the blood vessels in our penis and whatnot. Does that quite a few times overnight. And that's a sign of health. Like, that actually means it's working how it's supposed to. But that happens during the day too, right? Particularly, I think, when, you know, when I was young. And so there'd be the sitting in the class and thank God we have desks, you know, to cover it. But the, oh, wow, I hope I don't get called on or have to move up to the front of the room or something like that. And I never personally had that experience of it happening, but I certainly know men who have had that experience. And the. There it is. Ah, this is something to be ashamed of. And part of what we wanted to presence here is both what a. Like, you know, this is one of those kind of, I think, unspoken components of the masculine experience that a lot of men suffer through, that's just not talked about, is constantly tracking, am I having an erection? And if I do, what am I, you know, how am I hiding that in a certain situation or, you know, in like a public situation or, oh my God, I. I do like this woman. And we're on a first date and oh my God, she's so hot. And ah, I'm getting a boner. Like, what's she gonna think? You know, like that. I certainly had that play through my mind early in my journey as well. You know, we just kind of. I just want to set the story straight here and start to, you know, the antidote to shame is always connection. To bring it out of the. Out of the dark, so to speak. Is this is a normal thing in that, in fact, men having an erection is a sign of health. It's just our body working like it, you know, it'd be like mocking someone for salivating or for peeing. It's just like, this is your body, it works great and we don't have to attach so much stigma around it.
Melanie Curtin: I really like that frame of, you know, men having an erection is a sign of health. And it's interesting because I would say that as a woman, I have never had to deal with this. And so I'm. I'd say learning and being educated, you know, from this episode and from everything that our men have shared, you know, through my work, I am much more aware now of how intimidating it can be to have this part of your body not be fully within your control. And especially, you know, we were talking about boners in school. Like, during a period of your life when you don't have total control, like you said, particularly when hormones are raging and it's cycling through and it's just something that happens. One of our men was calling them NRBs. No reason boners. And how. Yeah, kind of scary it can be sort of like, I don't know when this part of my body is going to do this thing that might cause me to be humiliated. And I think that's the. You know, you're talking about that word shame. And I think the word humiliate and humiliation is. Is very strong. And I think that that's completely relevant here. Like, the. The fear of being humiliated is a big one for a lot of the clients that we work with, and this is very much attached to that. So one of our. One of our men. This isn't. Well, okay, I'll read this one first. Teenage spontaneous erections were not a fun time in school. It is real, and they occur for no reason and at the most random time. I used to carry a binder to put in front of myself in high school when I had an erection. And then when this particular man was asked, when I think of boner shame, he said, I think it's something to get rid of immediately that I should not have this. It's not a good thing to have this. So sort of to your point, I. I experience a lot of sadness and a lot of, yeah, just. Just grief, I guess, around. Like, man, we've taken this thing that's totally normal and actually quite a good thing, and we've turned it. We've vilified it. We've turned it into this evil thing. And how do we undo that? Right? How do we. How do we make it. How do we normalize the boner? And I think one of the. The. The things that this is tied to for a lot of. A lot of men that we work with, and I think a lot of men that are listening is I don't want to be perceived as a threat. I don't want to be perceived as someone that could cause harm. I don't want to be perceived in a certain way. And I think that's true in teenage years, but I think even more so as an adult of the. The. There's a particular kind of shame around me, like having a boner that is related to, well, does that mean I'm gonna then go hurt someone? Right? It's like, if I'm turned on, it means it's going to mean something. And you, you know, you mentioned that on. On dates, and that came up for a lot of the guys that were responding was they would say something like, you know, even on a date, or even when I was with a woman that I knew we were. We were relating in that way, I would still want to hide it, because what's she gonna think? And is she gonna think it means it has to go somewhere or whatever, you know, it was. But that. That early experience, it is so ingrained, right? It's. What did you say? It's like men are trained to. Oh, it's like a lot of men are constantly tracking, am I having an erection? If I am, how do I hide it? So it's. It's almost like a vigilance. It's not almost like it is vigilance. It's vigilance around this part of the body. And I wanted to shout out one of our men who responded because he said, in actuality, when I see a really attractive woman, you know, walking by or I'm in my environment, I very rarely get a boner. It doesn't really happen. But if I'm emotionally engaged with a woman, right, if we're. If we're on a date and we're connecting, that's when I'm going to get a boner. And I think this goes back to things we've talked about in other episodes where our perception as a culture is that men are pigs, men are dogs, men only want one thing, and they just want to fuck. But in actual real life, the vast majority of clients with whom we work, they're not even going to get aroused unless there's some level of connection. And I'm not talking about, you know, the teenage. The teenage situation where it's like, whoops. Like it's just happening. I'm talking about later in life as adults that there is a connection between emotional, you know, connection and physical arousal. But in our culture, it. It's like the fear is. If she sees that I'm getting hard, she's going to think I'm a pig or a dog or just Want one thing, like, she's going to go there. Which is so ironic because in that moment, it's actually, wow, I'm really jiving with you. That's why I'm getting hard. Also. I mean, also physically, you're attractive, but like, it's almost the opposite. Like, it's not just that he's this with no feeling and just wants to fuck. It's actually, wow, he's connecting with you and he feels emotionally close in some way, and that's what has led to the arousal. So there's just. I think men are deeply misunderstood in our culture. And I, I feel a lot of sadness about that. I feel grief about a lot of our men being missed.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And. And like I said, it. It goes to such a fundamental part of, you know, my experience as a man when I really feel into it. Because what that shame is teaching us from a young age is to be in opposition to just what we are. So my body is this, and what it is doing is wrong. Right. I don't want it to be doing what it's doing. And just that conflict in itself, I think goes to the root of so much of what, you know, tears up a lot of our clients and really makes them struggle in some ways, because there's that not just trusting and being one with their impulse. And, you know, they say, okay, this, this is okay. And I think the big work for a lot of us men is just to become okay with it. And, you know, we can do that at an individual level, but this is part of where there is a cultural level that we're having to fight against. And things like your podcast can start to create some pockets of, oh, it's okay, like, oh, yeah, that person's just having an erection. Or, you know, for me, you know, one place this has shown up that I think is a huge edge for a lot of men is, you know, another way to think about erections are we have to be relaxed as men to actually have an erection. So the, the musculature actually has to relax so our blood vessels and all that can dilate and the erection can happen in one place. That happens for me when I get a massage, right. If I'm getting body work and deeply relaxed, I'll often get an erection. And that was something I used to feel a lot of shame about. Particularly for me, it like, extra edgy from if it was a man, like, oh, my God, is he going to think, because, you know, that's just not my orientation. But I had like some extra stuff around that of like, oh, what would he think? Or even if it was a woman, like, oh my God, what would she think? And I just get really comfortable with, they do this all day long. This is what masseuses do. And it's part of the experience for them and it's part of the experience for us. And one way I can make sure it's not awkward is to not contract around it or make a big deal out of it. Just, okay, this is just what's happening for my body right now. We're both adults here, we can work around this, no problem. But it's one of those places that, you know, I do find that coming up. It's just like, oh, no, actually, I'm just really relaxed, right? It's not that I'm turned on, per se. I'm just quite relaxed. And in my body, in us being able to kind of take that power back a little bit of, okay, this is just what's happening. The more, okay, we can become with it as men, I think the more, okay, others around us can become. And it just takes a willingness to, you know, embrace this. And that's, I think, a big theme in our work with a lot of men is coming to terms with embracing our sexuality as it. It doesn't have to be destructive, it doesn't have to be a bad thing. It doesn't have to be something that just takes. But it can be creative, generative, life affirming and loving and a very positive thing. But we have to come to that relationship inside ourselves first as men. And boners are one really particular area where it's like, you know, I can imagine what it would be to, to. To start to shift that of, you know, hey, what if we celebrated like, hey, you're looking healthy, right? You just like, hey, that's great. Everything's working, huh? And then you just move on, right? Like, there'd be a way you could just speak to it a little bit if, you know, you're in a community where you feel right about it. And I, I think this is just something that I'm particularly jazzed about right now because it is a sign of health. It means like, hey, your body's working. We should celebrate that. Because for a lot of men, particularly as they age, that's one of the first things to go, right? Irregular erections. And that becomes a challenge. So for, for all of us that have experienced that know that there's a time in our life where we're gonna like, wish for that to, you know, like, oh my God, I wish I could just get an erection on demand like that.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Or. Or perhaps not on demand, but just exactly. This is one of our men's responses. When I think of boner shame, I think of getting one at super inconvenient times and then having to hide it until it goes away. Sitting in meetings and suddenly getting aroused because my mind wandered. Or fear of getting massages because the physical touch might cause arousal. Also of getting teased in school. So back to that point, I think that's a really great, really great point that you made of the fear is, what is the person gonna think? What are they going to think of me? And I think, particularly like you said with the. With massage therapy, you know, I have actually several close friends who are massage therapists, and to a person they say, yeah, erections are not a problem. It's part of what happens to people with male bodies when they get a massage. What has had them feel creeped out is not whether a man got an erection or not. It actually isn't tied to that. A man could have gotten erection or not. But it's like trying to touch the massage therapist's leg or saying something or there's it. The times that they have felt creeped out have not been just when someone on the table has gotten an erection. It's what does. What is the man doing with his sexual energy? And does it feel clean or not? So a man who's on the table gets an erection just is with it. Like you said, like, this is part of my body. Great massage. There's nothing wrong here. I'm not, I'm not disgusting for having a part of my body work. I'm not bringing it up. You're not bringing it up. Like, we're just accepting this is part of the human experience. Not creepy, but. But men who are like, whether they have an erection or not, like, doing all of the other stuff that feels bad. And so I think there's a lot to be said for, like you said, accepting and being with what's so and being right with what's so and just kind of staying present, just staying present through it. Like, yep, this is happening. And here we go. And that's, I think, the whole challenge behind overcoming cultural. I don't know if I would say norms, but the, the cultural field around shaming boys. I'm thinking specifically middle school. Right. Shaming boys. It's so ingrained. Right. It stays with you. So I'm going to read another story. This isn't from school, but this, I think goes to show how long it can last, he says. My first year in college, I was on the swim team and we wore the classic Speedo swimsuit. We swam six to seven days a week for about nine months. When I showed up at my mom's friend's summer cottage at the end of the school year, I went swimming in the same suit I'd used the whole past year, thinking nothing of it. My mom's expression of horror when she saw me in the suit, I still remember 40 years later. I work on it every day. But when I see an attractive woman I want to dance with, part of me still tries to talk me out of going down, going to ask her to dance. A gut feeling that my desire is bad. The shame still wins more than I would like to admit. Now, one of the things we also asked in our little survey was one thing that helps with my sexual shame. And this response was my favorite response. One thing that helps me with my sexual shame is Mel reminding me that my cock is sacred. So this goes for all of you listeners out there. I say this to all of our men all the time. Your cock is sacred. And that is another sort of. To your point, Jason, that goes beyond. Your is acceptable, your is tolerable, your is not dangerous, your, you know. No, your cock is sacred. It is a sacred element. It is a part of your fire and your aliveness and your, like you said, your vitality, your health, your vitality, your sacred. It's not about the being bad. It's what you do with your energy, your. And other parts of you. Right. It's your. Your whole. How your energy is. It comes across and what you're doing with it, how you're wielding your power, but your power itself is sacred. Anything to add to that little part?
Melanie Curtin: I think that's a good example, what you just gave of sort of owning it and moving on and not having it. Need to be a bigger deal than it is. And. And I. I do want to read some of these sort of like, shame stories because I. I think there's. There's just a lot of hidden stuff around this. So one of our guys said what he said. Sometimes when I get an erection, I'm thinking, like, how do I hide this? How do I Do this discreetly. It's women. They're going to know even if I think I'm doing this secretly. So there's a. That fear and shame response. The fear and the. And there's something about hiding, right? That. That word hiding of trying to hide it, which is the opposite of what you're describing, right? Which is owning it. I think part of the opposite of hiding something is just owning it. Like, yep, this is what I'm wearing. Like, yep, this is what's happening in my body. Like, yep, that's what I just said. Okay, there you go. Okay. There's a transmission of okay that then I think generates more okayness in the people around us. Like, to your point, this one really caught my attention. I'd never heard this before and was horrified. He said, boner shame. Makes me think of how unsafe I used to feel when I would be watching a movie with my ex wife and she would do random boner checks on me, seeing if I was hard and thus if I was desiring the woman or sex scene on screen. I felt very unsafe, unseen and misunderstood. And I was horrified when I read this because to me, like, the invasive equivalent of that would be somebody checking to see if I was wet. Like, oh, let me just check. Let me just check you. Let me just check you. Like, ew, get off me. That's disgusting. I don't need you to. That's so invasive. It felt very invasive when he described that in his relationship. And I guess I just wanted to validate that. That man, you know who you are. And just to say, God, these stories that we hear sometimes. I'm like, who are these women? Oh, my God, you need to get some therapy, dude. That's. That's pretty up. That's not. Not cool. And I know that it's coming from a place of insecurity and a place of jealousy, but there's so little regard, I think sometimes for men's experience of themselves. In our culture, there's a disregard for men's emotional experience around sex, around just a lot of things. We have a lot of judgments. And what is it? Projections. And I think that it's really sad. And I guess I just will name that many of those projections do come from harm that men have caused. But other. Projecting that onto all men is problematic. And it's. And. And it's the. It's the sort of water world swimming in. Right? I think that when we refer to something like the patriarchy, I think the patriarchy as a word can get confusing for people. And I would be curious to hear your definition because to me, the patriarchy is not actually about individual men or even men as a whole. It's this set of norms that keeps us all boxed in. And one of those quote norms is this what I'm talking about, of men are disgusting or men are bad for, and men only want sex and they only want to harm with. With sex. To me, that's a patriarchal belief that is part of the patriarchy. And it's really problematic because I think one of the things that that happens when we adopt those, those problematic norms, myself included, is that I assume that it's not going to be hurtful to a man if I talk about something sexual or I make all of these assumptions about men based on this really problematic set of, of norms. And then I think a lot of men feel missed and misunderstood and not exactly used, but something of like, that's not me. Like, why are you kind of making that me, right? And, and this, this part about, you know, how do I hide this? Right? It's like that, that that same man shared. And if they, if they notice, if they see, they're going to think I just want to fuck. Like, basically they're going to make all of these other assumptions about me if I have an erection that I'm. That I don't care, that I just want to bang, that I'm just here. That I'm just here for something shallow like. And it's true. The thing is, he's not wrong that be. I think because of the patriarchy, a lot of people do assume that they are going to assume that like, you just came here to fuck. You don't really want to know who I am. And I think that, you know, speaking as a woman who's attracted to men, that is something that, that is the water that I swam in growing, growing up. And everyone I would say in, in the patriarchy does, which is like, I as a woman have to protect myself or defend against in some way to like, make sure I don't get hurt. And when I say don't get hurt, I mean don't get assaulted, right? Don't get sexually assaulted, but also don't get my heart broken. There's a defensive posturing that ends up happening where it's like, you have to prove to me that you're not just after sex in order for me to even give you a chance. There's just this weird like, dynamic that gets set up because I'm assuming that you, if. That if given the chance, you will Use me for sex. That's the, I think patriarchal assumption is if given the chance, you will use me and throw me away. So I have to contort myself and do make all these machinations to ensure that I'm not used in that way. And so there's this weird game set up which sucks because none of the men that we work with is like that. None of them is operating like that. It's that they want to connect genuinely. They're interested in being. Being sexual, yes. But also being in connection, having intimacy. And there's this kind of like pushback even before they've arrived. I think it culturally. So there's this speed bump to get over rather than it just being open in an open environment already. And I think that this, this topic is related. This is an expression of that. Like you're wrong or bad just for having, having a boner.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. I mean, right. The one of the unique differences between physiology of someone with a penis and someone, you know, with a uterus is our turn on is visible on the outside in a totally different way. Right. And that there's so much kind of gets impacted by that in the sense, I think there has been a conflation because in a sense our, our sexuality, our boners can be uncontrollable, meaning sometimes our body just does it. And I think that can easily get married with. Well then male sexual sexuality is uncontrollable. And a man has no impulse control over what he's going to do with that if he gets a boner. He's going to try. Right. Or take advantage of someone. And you know, there's a certain maybe type of pretty unevolved man that, that yeah, some, you know, some of the really worst men, they have no capacity for self control and so an impulse comes up in their body and they move towards that impulse much like a child. That's not most men in the planet right now. Just a few of those men can cause a ton of harm in the world. So let's be clear about that. It just takes a couple of bad app. But most men are not like that. Even though sometimes we'll have a boner when we don't want. We know what to do with our sexual energy. Right. And so for us it's learning to trust ourselves. And then the more we trust ourselves, I think the more that can radiate out and we can start to kind of change the idea in this culture in that there's, you know, the fact that our sexuality is external like that does bring Some vulnerability and visibility to it. In a sense that just gives us extra thing to track. Like I said, you know, the, the other deeper thing I just wanted to point to here is that, yeah, the, right, the boner itself, I think where we get into the stickiness so to speak is then there's implied attraction with that a lot of times or an implied, I want to do something with that. And that's, you know, as you've heard in some of these shares for some of us men, for a lot of nice guys we work with, they have this idea that it is bad to be attracted to someone, that I'm not worth it or what will she think of me? And so there's this inference that and, and boys will, you know, do this to other boy. Oh my God, you got a boner for her. Like bad. That's bad for you or something like that. There's like that kind of mocking energy in it. And you know, we're here to say no, it's awesome to be attracted to someone. I think for a lot of us guys that goes right to the heart though of our shame, of our self loathing, of what we think about ourselves. So it's like, oh my God, I'm attracted to her. I had a boner. But she's going to think I'm so full of, she must think I'm so full of myself. You know, like there's this whole story that happens, oh, she seems that she's going to think I'm the kind of guy, I think I could fuck her and da da, da, da. And it'll often kind of eat us alive on the, on the inside where what we're really speaking to here is it's far more nuanced in that sometimes it just happens physically. Even when it does happen from arousal. It doesn't mean we feel like we're entitled as men to then have sex or some of the things that I think can kind of go off the rails in that responsible men. Yeah, it's like, okay, my sexuality is alive and I have a choice what to do with that. And I think as men as we really step into owning that I have a choice what to do with my sexuality. And you know, we often talk about in our group calls, you know, the patriarchy. One of the places it does impact a lot of our guys is that even the inner guilt for some men that oh my God, this woman's making herself available to me. So I, I should, I should have sex with her and if I don't, I'm not a man. Because that's what men do. If sex is available, they take it. Right. That's another place we see the patriarchy really impact men. And part of again, this whole conversation around no, just because sex is available or just because we have an erection or arous doesn't mean anything has to happen. We still get to have choice as men about what we want to do with our sexuality.
Melanie Curtin: Yes, that's a great point that's come up several times of we're all, we're all swimming in that water of if a man has access to sex, he should take it and if he doesn't take it, there's something wrong with him. And we're here to say that's not true. You get choice. And if you're not feeling it or you're not feeling connected or you're not feeling connected in that moment, you, you don't have to have sex. You do not have to have sex. That actually makes you a mindful human being and not an automaton. This gets to one of the comments from one of our men. He said, the most prominent thought when I think about sexual shame is shame around my current multi year dry spell and that I'm the only person in my friend group who is single at the moment. It makes me feel like something is wrong with me or that I'm less of a man because of it. And that's much to your point. This association with, you know, whether I'm having sex with my manhood is, I think we need to just dispel that. There's nothing, there's no connection between those two things. How much of a man you are is related to your integrity, let's say, or how much you are in your body, how present you are, how much you care well for the people around you, how well you're leading yourself in your life rather than whether you're having sex or who you're having sex with or how much sex you're having or, you know, any of the rest of it. And you know, your, your point, Jason? I think about worth and value, that that has been one of the most eye opening and I think heartbreaking things for me in working with men is how much men. A lot of the men that we work with are afraid of being perceived as dangerous. That just who I am and how I am is scary to someone like they, the men we work with, they're good guys. They don't want to be, they don't want to cause harm, they don't want to make someone feel uncomfortable. They don't. Their worst nightmare is making a woman uncomfortable in some way or having her feel unsafe. And so the contraction that you mentioned, the shutting down, the, you know, making yourself small, is, to me, the most heartbreaking part, because it's. It's. It's depriving the world of your fullness and your greatness and your depth and your contributions. It's like. I. I mean, for lack of a better word, it's like neutering. It's like neutering yourself. And that is not the. That is not the answer. That. That is not the answer. Right. Learning how to be with it well and learning how to claim it well and own it well, that's the goal. And I'm thinking of one of our clients. It's one of the most gratifying parts of our work, I think, is watching men go from being completely inert and just shut down sexually to being alive and awake and actually proud. I think that's really the word, is be proud. Be proud of this part of yourself. This is a good part of yourself. This is a healthy part of yourself. Not just your. But just your sexuality in general. Thinking of one guy who was pretty shut down at the beginning of working with us, and I would say that now I think he's. He's basically seeing two women, like, at the same time. And, you know, I'm thinking of another guy who was married and came because he wanted to generate more polarity in his relationship. And I think a big breakthrough for him was my. Is sacred. My sexuality is sacred. And even if my wife is a no in this moment, that doesn't mean I'm bad. Right. There was a conflation between if she's a no, it means I'm disgusting or my needs are gross or somehow I'm less than. And I think the breakthrough for him was, oh, she's a no tonight. Okay. And just sort of moving on. Like, it didn't need to be this huge thing. And, you know. Yeah, it was just. It's. It's. It's rewarding to see those transformations and to feel the. The shedding of those layers of shame, just, like, letting them go, letting them drop. And just the amount of resources that we get back, the amount of attention and vitality and energy of just, like, instead of doing a shame spiral, just moving on or at least having the shame spiral be less intense and less prolonged. I think that's been another breakthrough for a number of our men, is. It's not like the shame spiral is completely disappears Overnight. But instead of devolving for two weeks, it's like, okay, I was upset about that for a few hours, did some of my practices, reached out to one of my men, and now I'm resourced again. And that is resilience. You know, it doesn't need to be perfection, but we want to. We want to see that needle moving in the direction of claiming health, claiming vitality, claiming wholeness around this and really, actually internalizing, like, no, this is a good part of me. Any comments on that? And then I have a. I have a. An offering as a woman who has. Who has been in situations with men who have erections.
Melanie Curtin: Oh, mic drop. That was it, dude. That was totally it. We're gonna start to land the plane here. And I think that one of the big themes that I am present to is this idea of being right with ourselves, exactly as we are, and not holding shame. What I mean by that is not holding on to shame, even if we feel shame in a particular moment, so allowing it to pass through instead of ruminating on it. And I think that's one of the. The things that you said in passing, which we've said before, but I'll reiterate, which is that shame dies in the light. Shame needs to be witnessed there. There's something particular about shame that it's one of the emotions that it's really hard to process on our own. It's important for it to be witnessed by a loving presence. And I think that's really. You know, I'm thinking of another one of our men who shared something about one of his past experiences with. With an erection that didn't go well and having it be witnessed in the group. There was such a reclaiming energy, such a Reclamation, energy of all of us, just validating the. Out of him and being like, dude, there was nothing wrong with you. Your body is normal. Like, that was a great, healthy expression of that and all of that. So much so that he came back later and he had done an art piece, and. And basically, yeah, reclaimed. That moment was like, I'm fucking proud of this. This is a proud moment for me now. And I think that that is such a beautiful transformation from the inside out. And I. You know, he's just. Yeah, he's flourishing in many ways. And that happened because it was witnessed. It was witnessed. There's something about being witnessed by a loving presence. And so I guess I just. Yeah, I wanted to. To say that, because if you are someone, you know, who contends with sexual shame, finding safe communities, finding safe people, finding safe mentors to share and be witnessed in, that is critical. You know, it's one of those things that it's really hard to get over solo when you're. When you're. When you're just experiencing it by yourself. You tend to devolve and ruminate and all this stuff. So there's. There's something about being witnessed that is important in this. In this whole conversation. And the other thing that I. I got really inspired when you were talking, Jason, about the more people we have in the world. And I think about this with our men. This is true for sure, with the men that we work with. The more men that we work with, the more of a ripple effect there is. And I was just thinking about how awesome it would be if someone was a coach or an assistant coach and they witnessed some boy being mocked for having a boner and just stepped in and was like, you know what? Actually, that means his body is working exactly the way that it is, and he's healthy. And you're wrong, so shut up. I mean, maybe you'd find a better way of doing that if you were an adult in the room. But it. It excites me because the more that we own our own power, the more we just are the transmission of that out in the world, and the more willing we are to. Yeah. To stand up for other people, too. To stand up for ourselves and just be. Be with. Be with it. Be right with it, you know, and. And have that be the norm to. To essentially create new norms. That's really what we're going for here. And I think there's. There's such power to individual transformation because then that you're like a secret agent out in the world generating all of these ripples out and I. I find that very inspiring.
Jason Lange: Happy to be part of the transformation and can start here. Men.
Melanie Curtin: So, yeah, if you are interested in our work, you can go to evolutionary Men slash.
