304: What happens if you or your partner needs space? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Glad to be back.

Melanie Curtin: Always happy to have you. We are talking about poking today, and it's interesting because I think I'm gonna also record some episodes on Testing Feminine Testing, which is sort of related, but I think this is a separate enough topic. I really wanted to do this first. And we're talking about poking. So why does your woman poke you sometimes? What is it about? What is the motivation? What, you know, what's the why? What's going on there? And I think that as we start to get into this, we should probably first define our terms. So what. What do we mean when we talk about poking? Can you. Can you kick us off there?

Jason Lange: I mean, it's just a more subtle form of like an actual poke, like walking up to someone and pushing them with your finger a little bit to elicit some kind of response and feel what's there. I think it's really about that. So in my experience, it's energy, not always pleasant energy coming at us that in a lot of ways is just meant to evoke, like, where are you? And I want to feel you. I'm having a hard time trusting you right now. So where are you? What are you feeling? What are you feeling about us is, you know, often a big part of it. So the poke is just like a. It's a. It's a ping, it's a poke. It's some kind of energy that comes towards us that's meant to evoke an energy back. And, you know, that's maybe in the more challenging sense, but sometimes it's also like a calling into the moment as well, of just, hey, where are you? You know, it doesn't have to just be mad or angry, but sometimes it's just like, I can tell you're off somewhere else. And so, come here, be here. It's not even come here, it's be here. I miss you. And then we kind of get to come in.

Melanie Curtin: You know, what this reminds me of. So I was trying to think of examples before this episode. And it reminds me of sometimes I'll be walking with my very close guy friend and I'll say, are you listening to me? Like we're having a conversation and I can feel him drifting. Like I feel like he's not really there anymore or he's kind of missed something or whatever. And I'm like, are you listening to me? I think that's a good example of a poke. Right. So you can hear it in the tone. There's some judgment, there's some, like, you know, it's not really about the content of the words. The words can be whatever they are. It's more like. If you took the words away, it would still feel a little harsh. A little harsh? A little like provocative. Provocative in the sense of provoking. Right. I'm like, want to get your attention. And it's not always. It's not nice. I guess that's what it is to me. To me, poking is not nice. It doesn't feel nice. It's not neat and tidy. It's not open hearted. It's not, you know, mature. It's not, it's not any of those things. It's pokey. It's pokey. It's sharp. And I think that when, and I'm curious to hear from you about, you know, receiving that kind of poke. What, what, what is a common kind of escalation if this doesn't go well? Right. What is the common escalation? What does this look like when she pokes him and then, and it goes poorly? What, what happens?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, in my experience, the poke often ties right. Into a common masculine feeling of, oh, I'm not enough. Yeah, you're criticizing me. And then that comes back with attack or defense or frustration or anger. Like, no, you know, I was just listening to you. Or you, you know, you could just feel the energy. Like it's very easy to come back with. And there's often escalation. Right. So poke me. I react and maybe poke back a bit. And then it goes up and up and up and up until something crescendos, which is not always pleasant. Sometimes, you know, it can lead to some kind of connection, but without a lot of consciousness, it definitely can actually make things work if we don't know how to work with what's really happening under the, under the request.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think that's, it's interesting because when I, when I think back on those frequent times with that particular friend where I've said, are you listening to me? Often what happens is he says yes, right? So it's been, like, really flat for a while. I've been kind of sharing. I haven't gotten a lot back from him. I can't really feel him. I can't really feel him. I don't really know where he is. I don't really know if he's with me. I'm not really sure what's going on. And then I say, are you listening to me? And he says yes, in like, a defensive way, which is like. But at least I can feel him. So. And I think this is the important thing to note is that I'm actually looking for some kind of emotional response. I'm looking for some kind of feeling of, yes, I'm here, yes, I'm listening, yes, I'm present. And it's interesting because if I. If I reflect on it, the way that that conversation goes is I say, are you listening in the way that I said? He says, yes, in a, you know, defensive way. And that's it. That's enough. We know each other well enough. We know our patterns well enough that then we kind of move on. And I keep sharing and he is present, and that's it. It doesn't go and go somewhere. And that is a, I think, a testament in part to how much trust we have built between the two of us and how much experience we have relating. Because I think, actually, interestingly, that poking. I only poke people I trust. If I don't trust someone, I don't poke them. And so in that similar scenario, if I'm walking with someone and I don't trust them, we don't have trust built up. And I feel them drifting. I don't feel paid attention to. I don't feel like they're really with me. I will just stop sharing and they will not know why. So unless I. So I think part of what I want to say there is that I feel like poking is something that often happens in intimate relationship, which can be love relationship. That's really what we're focused on. It can also happen in depth of. Depth of friendships. And it can also happen in. In familial relationships. Right. I'm thinking specifically of, like, siblings. Great. Someone that you have a lot of trust with. And you're like, where are you? Are you. I'm talking about Mom. Are you listening? Are you here? Are you still here? And so can you share a little bit from your perspective? You know, as someone who's been poked, I would say I'm guessing you've been poked more than you've poked others. So, yeah, he's nodding. You can't see him, but he's nodding. So can you share? Because I'm more the poker and you're more the pokey. Can you share a little bit from your perspective about what is your experience of, of that moment and how has that changed over time?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's definitely changed over time. I mean, sometimes there's a sense of, oh, yeah, caught, redheaded, you know, in a conscious moment of like, yeah, yeah, I totally actually wasn't here or my energy is elsewhere. And oddly enough with those moments, the more conscious of them I am and the more I don't pretend like it's otherwise, the less of an issue it is. She's like, yeah, no, you're right. Like, I'm not very present right now and doesn't mean that there's not disconnection there, but there's at least shared reality that puts my partner at ease. Other times, yeah, if I'm less resourced or was less conscious, it'd be just a lot more defensiveness and, you know, more of my lawyerly energy explaining why or no, I was just doing this one little thing, but I was listening. There's like a, you know, justifying and that can get really annoying and frustrating. And, you know, sometimes it also would for me would come from, you know, nice guy tendencies of not setting healthy boundaries. So instead of just directly declaring like, yeah, no, I actually, I need to go rest or I can't do this or something else is really important to me right now. I would, I would not. And then it would kind of. Yeah, it just gets into yuckiness versus being more clear and direct about where I'm at. And then she doesn't have to poke as much. In a sense.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I want to, I want to come back to that because that feels really important. So, for example, if there's a moment in which your woman starts sharing something vulnerable or real or whatever, and you know that you don't have the bandwidth that you're too tired to actually pay attention and you're not going to retain what she's saying, can you give an example of what that actually sounds like in real life? How do you skillfully interrupt her or share? I really want to know what you're saying and I want to be able to pay attention to it and I'm not resourced, like, I'm not able to have this conversation right now and I don't want you to feel Dropped? Well, I just sort of did it.

Jason Lange: I mean, I think that's it of.

Melanie Curtin: What it actually sounds like in real life with your woman when she has already started sharing and you're realizing, oh, I can't hold this right now.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, it's. It's a. You know, can. I need to pause you right there. I really want to hear this. And I actually don't have the ability to fully hear you in the way I think you deserve right now because, you know, I'm waiting on a call from work or I'm dealing with this stressful thing or, you know, whatever it is, but I want to. And here's when I think I can get back to it. Right. So can we set some time in 20 minutes on, you know, later this afternoon, tomorrow? You know, life can get pretty crazy sometimes. The thing there is then you really have to be able to make that time to keep that trust up. And it's not always going to be pleasant, but in a sense, it's more trustable than going along with something you're not actually available for. And then she's going to be able to feel that you're not listening. And then it's just like a sour experience for both people versus being clearer up front. You know, if I don't have the capacity to do this right now, and it's not about me not wanting to, it's about, you know, in a sense, being attuned enough to myself to know I won't be able to be fully present for you. And, you know, and you can even offer that option. Like, you know, I could tell you half of my awareness is on this thing right now. So it's going to be very hard for me to stay fully present with you. If you're okay with that, then sure. But if you want my full presence, then here's when I think it's next going to be available or I can be available for you. So there is a, you know, good edge for us nice guys. If there is, you actually have to be able to interrupt, like, which can feel confrontational, but to like, interrupt and say, I need to pause you right there. Which can you know, not necessarily be a pleasant thing when you're on the other side of it, because especially if you are feeling something vulnerable, that can be really triggering. But ultimately, I think it creates more trust over time when that is followed through with. On a partnership. Because then there is this knowing of. Okay, sometimes I think we feel if I don't get it out right now, then I'm never going to be able to get it out versus, like, okay, no, I know we will get to it. And now I continue to go regulate my nervous system until I can wait for the person to become available. You know, the man in this case, as we're talking.

Jason Lange: Right.

Melanie Curtin: It's like. It's not subtle to your point. It's like, holy shit. I think he said, basically, before, I never knew why. It just seemed random. And now I'm realizing my depth of presence is the factor that is contributing significantly to the system when I arrive home. And it's not like a magic bullet, you know. And, you know, my wife has her own experience going on as well, but, wow. I can tell now how critical this is and what I can do about it. And so I think this is. I think this is one of those things that's subtle in the system, but has profound impact and can. It can feel random and overwhelming if you don't know about it. Right. It's like I just feel like I keep getting poked. Right? There's no. There's. It doesn't ever let up. I. Or. Or I get poked sometimes and I don't really know why, and I feel really resentful about it. Like, you stop poking me. Right. It's like, it's not. But it's not about the thing that the poke is about. It's about this. It's about, can I feel you? Can I feel you? I can't feel you. Where are you? And, yeah, so I'd love to hear a few comments from you about that. And then I have another share on a personal level.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, the poke, I think, is really just a call often for presence. Right. And deep and deeper feeling. Those things often go hand in hand. Presence, deeper feeling in connection. You know, those things aren't really different. They're all kind of the same thing. You know, the different facets may be of the same energy that at any given time, if I get poked by my wife, that's what's behind it. It's just. That's really what's behind it. And so if I'm present in connecting with her and if I'm just feeling my own experience, she doesn't have to poke me as much. Right. So if I've just come back from a men's retreat where I've been doing embodiment work and connecting with men, and I come back really grounded and in myself, she's not poking me. Like, I'm just. I'm there. If I've been drifted or lost on social media or stressed out about work or something like that, then, yeah, like, I will drift from the relationship and from just being present, in a sense. And so she will have to come at me to poke me. And just like my daughter will too, you know, if I'm kind of in that distracted, floaty place, and so many of us are these days. I mean, it's just an onslaught on our attention and we're having, you know, I think as men in particular, get more and more skilled at how to stay connected to the moment, to ourselves, so we can be present for the people around us. And it feels good, right? Whether you're a man or a woman, presence feels good. It feels good to be in the presence of presence, soothing for everyone. And it's one of the ways we can lead in our relationships, in family and life. It's Actually, one of the primary gifts we can bring to all those areas is to actually lead everyone around us into deeper presence. And there's almost always like a relief when, when two individuals or a group drop more real into a concrete experience of the moment. It's better, you know, frankly. And so our partners are often just longing for that for us. Right. And it, this doesn't mean we have to like sit eye gazing for 20 minutes. It just sometimes means, like, just boom. Like we just need a little connection right now. And then our tank is kind of full enough to get through the day.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thank you for speaking to that because I do think that there's. It doesn't need to be elaborate sometimes, you know, it just needs to be. You're right, I wasn't really listening. And I'm. I'm here. I am listening now. Right? That's, that's enough. It doesn't like, I like what you said about sometimes I'm just caught red handed. I'm like, you're right, I was not here. I'm sorry. But I do want to hear this. And I am here now. Thank you for calling me forward. Whatever. Doesn't have to be perfect, but just, you know, it doesn't have to be elaborate. It can just be, oh, I got poked. Let me come into presence. I'm here, I'm here. I'm with you. I'm really with you. And that what you're speaking to, you know, I'm really with you, is, I think, to your point, inherently comforting. It's inherently comforting. And that's true whether you're at a PTA meeting or you're at work, or you're with your sibling or you're with your cousin at Thanksgiving. Right? It's like just really deeply being with someone present in the moment is inherently comforting. There is something really comforting about that. Sometimes, even without words, just, I'm here, I'm with you. You are not alone. I'm with you. I wanted to share a kind of amusing story about poking, which is like, I think that. So there's two things. One is the escalating effect. So, like, I don't know if any of you listening have ever had this experience, but I feel like we've worked with men where there the. The woman will poke and poke and poke and poke and escalate the pokes until there is a reaction, an emotional reaction. So I was on the phone with a man and with, you know, the man I was dating, and we were talking about something and he was being really rational Analytical and calm and, you know, straightforward. And I was, like, emotional about what we were talking about. And I kept poking. I basically kept poking. Like, I can't remember the words that I used, but I was kind of like, in my. In my emotional experience, I was like, I hear what you're saying, but it feels really heady. I can't feel you. I can't feel your heart. I can't feel your body. Like, I can't feel you. Where are you? That's the emotional experience I was having. And I. I don't remember the words that I used, but what I remember is that he's. He eventually said. He eventually said it's because I got my ass kicked in my last relationship. And I was like, well, now I feel you. Now I believe you. Now I trust you. Now I trust that what you're saying to me is true. Like. Like, before that, it felt intellectualized, rationalized, you know, clean and neat and tidy. And, like, I just couldn't feel him. I just couldn't feel him. And then once he said that, even though he said it in kind of like a. An aggressive fashion or, like, impassioned, I felt. I felt him. I felt his heart. I felt his power. I felt him. And then I calmed down. So there's this interesting inverse thing that happens sometimes that I wanted to make sure we covered, which is like I. I poke. I poke a little bit more. I get a little bit louder. I still can't feel you. Now I'm really loud. And then you come back with an impassioned response. And now I. Now all of a sudden, I'm calm and I'm toned down, and I can. You know, that has happened to me in several relationships where I'm going up, I'm headed up because I can't feel him. And then he responds. And now I'm like, oh, I feel better. I feel better. Like, I can feel you now. Like, now we're having a real conversation. And sometimes that can be really uncomfortable, right? Sometimes that can be. And sometimes it can be unhealthy. That can be uncomfortable to the level of being unhealthy. How can a couple, if they are stuck in that pattern, how can they bring more health into that equation?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, another way to think of the poke is kind of, where are you at? And once you know where someone's at, you can orient to them. And oftentimes that relaxes the nervous system in terms of the healthy ways. You know, there's creating agreements with each other. If you're in A relationship where you can create agreements of how do we bring this forth, what feels good, what doesn't feel good. You know, it can literally come as a poke sometimes. And that's going to be pretty triggering for some people to have someone actually come into their space. And that's not okay. But there might be some words or something that are good. There are ways to do it playfully, like, hello, is anyone home? Ring, ring, you know, which is like, the energy's still there, but it's not as accusing. It's. It's. It's playful, right? Can you bring some levity or playfulness to it? And, you know, along with that, I'm sure I've shared it by this time on this podcast. But, you know, the. What doesn't trigger me in the same way is when my partner just says, you know, I miss you. I'm missing you right now. Like, it's clear you're somewhere else, and I just want you to know, maybe you have to be there, but I miss you. And that tends to soften me rather than put me in a defense, in a sense. And so she's learned that works for me, and that's a good way to kind of call me home, so to speak. And sometimes, yeah, playfulness, you know, and then having some agreements around it and just even having the discussion around what's really going on underneath that, you know, listening to an episode like this together. Hey, what's our version of that? Like, how. When have we seen that play out and what's really been going on? Okay, cool. Now we can see that. And we can see it's not, like, nefarious, you know, in a sense, it's like, oh, there's. Underneath, there's a yearning for connection. Okay. That's what my partner's wanting right now. Some kind of connection and presence. And I, you know, it's. It's pretty hard to get mad at that, like, when we really feel the softness underneath that. And so then that whole paradigm can be experienced differently.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I appreciate that. And I'm also wanting to name in this moment that this. This is not a gender discussion. You know, any. Any couple, most couples have a version of this, and sometimes it's the man who's like, I miss you. Like, I can tell you're not present with me right now, and I wish you were. So it's not any one way, but I think that the. What you said there is really important about. I do think it's helpful to bring consciousness and awareness to the pattern, because what I What I don't want to have happen is for couples to be stuck in an endless loop of having to poke. Right. That there are other options. And for some people the poke does come across as painful and off putting. And yeah, it might call that person into presence, but they're also pissed, which is not always the best for the system. Right. We want it to be like, basically what works for different people is going to be different. Some people need a more gentle call and for that person, I'm missing you right now is going to work a whole lot better than a poke. Whereas for other people they're like, oh yeah, like a poke doesn't really, I don't bump on it that much. Like it's not that upsetting for me, but it's really grounding and helpful to know that that's what's going on underneath that what you're really asking for is my presence and attention. So for example, with the situation my guy friend and me, when I say like, are you listening to me? It's become a little bit of a ritual with us. So it doesn't, it doesn't, he doesn't jump on it. He's just kind of like, yes. And then we move on. It doesn't derail us or our relationship. It's just kind of like it works for us, I guess is what I'm saying. And for some couples it's going to work for them. And other couples, this is disrupting their connection. And the other thing that I wanted to say was I feel like the heady part. So the other thing I've experienced and I think I've witnessed in certain relationships is when I feel you in your head and I can't feel you in your body, it's harder for me to trust you. And I think some of the pokes come when I'm, when I'm like, I don't feel you, I don't feel you in your body. Like I, I hear the words you're saying. I hear all of these nice words. Actually some of them are really fucking annoying. I hear all the words but like I can't feel you. And so can you speak a little bit to that as someone who, you know, I would say self proclaimedly used to live in your head more. What, what is going on when, what does talk to me about the distinction between that of I'm, you're. We're in a conversation and I'm hearing the words that you're saying, but I can't feel, I can't feel you.

Jason Lange: Yeah, Usually it's just. Honestly, it's how connected to myself am I. So she's not feeling me connecting to my full experience, which in. In a. In a way is like, if she, through intuition, through her nervous system, through, you know, whatever, gets a sense that she's more aware of my experience than I am, that can be actually disturbing. Like, there's, I think, something uncomfortable about that sometimes for the feminine. And so if I'm not connected to that, that tends to be what happened. I can be talking and not actually be fully experiencing, you know, what's happening in my body or in my heart, or maybe I'm just not even fully really saying what's true for me. Right. Whatever that might be. And so the, you know, the escalation, the poking, the. Eventually, it's when it all lines up in an integrity, like, oh, that's where you're at. I feel you feeling your experience and sharing it. Like, so you're actually in your experience and sharing it. You're present. And then she can, you know, some part of her can relax. Even if it's still a moment of tension or something. There's like a. A grounding there. There's a footing. There's something to orient around. I think that's the thing. If I'm checked out as a man and not feeling myself, it's actually oftentimes harder for Violet to orient what she's feeling, even sometimes. Right. Because it's like, oh, is he not liking me? Is there tension? Is there? Am I worried about this? I don't. You know, and this is, you know, this is the masculine. It's simplifies and reduces and creates a structure to orient around. So if I'm not connecting to myself, it's actually kind of confusing the whole relational field a lot of times. But once I do, things tend to orient and we can both, like, find our ground, so to speak. And that makes a big difference.

Jason Lange: It works. I mean, it's been working in my relationship. The more I can proactively bring that forward, I think that is. And it is an area where men have been vastly underserved in terms of cultivating our own interoception and our ability to just be aware of what's happening in our bodies and know how to share and express that, because it's not something we're taught, and it's frankly something that literally other men will sometimes beat out of us. And so it's quite countercultural and revolutionary and powerful to step into that as men. It's brave, it's courageous, and frankly, it's better you're going to live longer and have a more fulfilling life, the more your capacity to do this. Because guess what? That whole process we just talked about, about Being able to speak what is. That's also how people feel trust, like, oh, I trust where this person's at because there's in alignment in what they're sharing. And the more people trust you as a man, you're going to make more money. Just to put it pretty blunt, you're going to be more successful in the things you want to do, whether that's in your relationship, your hobbies or your profession. So this isn't like some just woo, woo, yay, learn how to do this thing. This is like something that can massively impact the quality of your life and frankly the quantity, how long you're going to live by your capacity to know what's happening inside yourself and share it outward and become sensitive, you know, to that inner self and build that body sense and interoception that wow, there's something not right in me right now. I need to go get some kind of help physically, psychologically, whatever that might be. That starts with being tuned into self. And the more you can do that, the more other people and particularly your love partner is going to be able to feel that and it's a good thing.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I appreciate what you said and I think I've. I have definitely been struck by how many of our clients have, you know, gotten raises or gotten promotions or gotten a new better job or you know, changed career tracks or been gotten awards or you know, things have happened because they have become more present and that has a ripple effect. And they did an interesting, another interesting social science study on business school students. And one of the things that they found was that leadership capacity was basically tied to this. So the perception of students about who are the leaders in our class was essentially how present was someone because of the concept of entrainment, which is my nervous system entrains to yours, which is what we're talking about when we're talking about the child. When you enter the room and you are regulated and you are present, your child attunes to you and that calms them down. Right. There's a calming effect when you enter the room and you're dysregulated or you're distracted, that going to amp them up and you're going to see a response. And it's the same for adults. Adults are the same. We entrain to one another. And so there was this, yeah, just really interesting study that was like basically it's about entrainment and about certain people are more perceived as more trustable and perceived as better leaders and actually are better leaders because they are More present and they are more able to entrain the people around them in that fashion. We have this saying that whoever is holding, whoever is breathing more deeply in any moment is holding the alpha pole, holding the masculine pole, holding, holding down the room, really. And there is a. There is an effect and it. And it can't be faked either.

Jason Lange: Right.

Melanie Curtin: That's the thing about it is, you know, nervous system work is something that you train, much like going to the gym. It's not something that you can fake. When it comes down to it, can you lift that heavy thing? Is about whether you've trained your body before that moment to lift the heavy thing. You can't fake it. You can't pretend to lift the heavy thing. You're either going to be able to lift it or you're not. And in the same way, navigating intensity in a relationship requires some training. And once you have that training, everything's easier. I think that's one of the most inspiring things about our work and about the clients that the, the transformation of the clients that I've seen is that the ones that are in relationship are like, wow, it's like I've. It's like I can see the matrix now and I understand why things are happening the way that they are. And I have a lot more control. I have. It's more empowering. It's like not random. It's not like, I don't know why this keeps not working. Why do we keep ending up here? There's way more grasp of what the system is and what I can do about it as a member. Right. The depth of my presence impacts everything else and how fully supported I feel. The depth of my presence is also, is related to that. Right. We are not advocating for men to be out there doing it alone. We want you to be supported and held in community because that is part of how you achieve depth of presence. When you feel, well supported, when you know that there are people who care about you and that you can text someone and say, oh God, I just had this other thing happen. And they are just there for you. They're just with you, they're just present. Right. Then you're able to be more present. So we all need basically a network in order to be good partners. And we talk about that all the time. But I think it's included here in the depth of your presence is also related to the strength of your network.

Jason Lange: Couldn't say it better myself. Which is why you should be in a men's group if you're listening.

Melanie Curtin: I love that. It's like almost every episode ends with the same thing, which is like, get into connection. You know, come, get, come into community, join our community or another community. But get, get that support, get that, get that structure into your life so that you do have places that you're cultivating presence and cultivating depth and feeling held. Because that is part of the. How you cultivate presence and depth. It's not just about another thing on your to do list, another thing to accomplish. It's really about feeling held. And there's no, there's no other feeling in the world, really. Feeling held, Feeling accepted, Feeling seen. Feeling loved. Feeling. Yeah. Feeling that support. So if you are interested in our work, you can go to Evolutionary Men Apply. And if you're interested in joining the podcast community, you can do so at our Patreon. Just Google Dear Men podcast and Patreon. And if you ever have anything to say or have an offer about an episode you would like to hear us do, get me@dearmen podcastmail.com.