301: What’s the difference between therapy and coaching? | Dear Men

Melanie Curtin: And they might not be all the results you want or in the right order or to the extent that you want, but there will be results. When you feel loved and held, things happen. There's something about feeling loved that helps us transform. Hey, everyone. Happy spring. We just had the equinox yesterday, moving into spring here in the Northern hemisphere. If you're joining us from the northern hemisphere, I had a quick celebration that I wanted to share before we get into this episode. This, I think, is a great example of, yeah, just the power that can come from leading, he says. I was thinking about you and Jason earlier today. Everything has still been absolutely amazing with the woman I'm with. I set up a conversation with her to discuss some plans for trips together that I want to have, including ones to see each of our families later in the year. During that conversation, she brought up that she had been thinking about this topic as well, but was scared to open herself. And by just allowing this conversation to happen, I learned a lot about what she's feeling and her values and her fears, so that I feel even more connected to her. This has probably been one of the clearest examples that I've found about the power of just setting the container. I love that celebration, in part because this is something that we do talk about a lot in coaching and help. Help men with, is how to lead conversations like this, how to set the container, how to open up the space, how to invite her forward, and, yeah, just create that safety, create that space, create that place for her to step into. And I think that's one of the really beautiful things about polarity, is when the person holding alpha creates that space and invites the other person forward. There's a lot of freedom. There's a lot of love. There's a lot of flow that can happen because the space has been opened. And I think this is such a good example of that. So you know who you are. Thank you for sharing with us and bringing this example to our community. And without further ado, let's get into the episode. Hello, people. Welcome to another Jason episode. Always good to have you with us, Jason. Thank you for being here. Today we're talking about the difference between therapy and coaching, and this is a sort of an obvious topic that we've never touched on before explicitly. But one thing that I like to do, since I'm a nerd who loves research, is to bring in the voices of our men, our clients, our graduates. So I asked them, what, for you, has been the primary difference between therapy and coaching? What have you found valuable about therapy? What have you found valuable about coaching? So I will be bringing in some of their voices to this episode in addition to our, our thoughts because I think it's helpful to have that kind of lived experience, share from other, other people, other men that have been through both and have a grasp on that. So before we get into their voices and their stories, I would love to hear from you, Jason, about your own personal experience with the difference between therapy and coaching. So for you, so not you as a coach, but you as a recipient of therapy and coaching. And then I will also share.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm actually just remembering the arc of my story even more than I thought here. So I, I actually first started with a coach. Well, let's see. Yeah, I started with a, a men's coach. And I've maybe told this story before, but he was just starting kind of in his profession and was looking for some new clients and he had done some, led some of our men's groups and knew I was kind of struggling in my mid to late 20s and worked with me. And there was a point where we got into some material that was pretty old in my nervous system that I've talked about before. Some, some pain around how I was raised and my mom in touch. And he actually, after that session, like really delicately and beautifully was like, hey, you know, I notice what, what we just experienced there, that's not really my jam, so to speak. Like not my gift in working in that space. And it actually feels like that might be better served by a therapeutic relationship. And so he actually guided me to my first somatic therapist who happened to be his wife. And then I went into the therapy world for, for, for quite some time and didn't really come back out into the coaching world to my mid-30s when I had some specific stuff I was trying to work in terms of proving my marriage and launching a business, you know, were the two main places I really dove into coaching. So I've done both. And you know, one of the first things I'll say in terms of my life is, uh, I needed both and one is not better than the other. You know, I, I, as I talk to our guys often, it's like cross training in the gym. You're just working different muscles in different ways, but they're both incredibly important. What I have found in my experience is, yeah, the, the therapeutic side of things was more about tending, wounding from my past. That was really kind of in the way of being in the present. Right. So I couldn't take certain forward facing actions because I had these unhealed wounds from the past. So for me, therapy not always, but often has a little bit more focus on what happened before that's causing me to show up a certain way now and then how can we, you know, tend to what happened before? So it doesn't have quite as a grip, Stronger grip on what's happening now. And coaching for me has always been a little bit more now and forward focused of like, well, there's an outcome and I don't know how to get there. So how do I get there? Coach like, like, and. And then watch me do this thing and tell me and give me some feedback. What did you see me do? What could I do better? Um, you know, that's like the. The literal coaching metaphor. So, you know, and there's cross between the two. Like, there's a lot of therapists who, who have coaching skills and help. Help men move forward. And we certainly do some therapeutic work and the work we do with. With men. But I think there is a different orientation. Coaching has a little bit more of a predisposition to action, to outcomes, to. To like a forward momentum, where therapy oftentimes is about, well, how can I just become more okay with what is in. In. In my experience and therapy? You know, certainly for me, one of the great things about it was it was very consistent. So when I was seeing, you know, my therapist, I was going maybe once a week at the peak, every other week, kind of more the ls. And I think that's really key for one of the best things I certainly found therapy for me was helping me create a secure attachment, just like somebody I was seeing regularly that gave a shit that I felt comfortable speaking with. And that was highly attuned to me in a way that I never had growing up. And I think that is one of the deep, deep gifts of that model that can be so restorative for men, even while they're doing coaching, to have that going, going on at the same time. The, the other thing I would say is, you know, therapy sometimes, yeah. Wants to get to the root of things. Coaching sometimes, because I have to deal with this in myself, is, oh, and some of those things I want to fix, they may never quite work how I want them to. Right? I might always have some of these old injuries or tender spots. So how do I move forward working with that, right? Like, okay, yeah, I have a bum knee. So how do. How do I. How do I be the best runner with a bum knee, right? Instead of just constantly forever trying to heal that bum Knee. It's like, well, okay, how do I work with that unique set of circumstances I have? So I love them both. You know, I. I've ended up being a coach. I think, you know, know one of the strange realities I've experienced and, you know, is there can be amazing coaches, there can be amazing therapists, there can be subpar coaches, subpar therapists. It's not so much about the profession, but it's, you know, the person behind it in some sense, and just how good they are at really dropping in and being present in. In either regard. So I'll stop there for now. But that's kind of my first salvo.

Melanie Curtin: Well, it's interesting you bring that up because I was going to bring up a social science study that I read at some point about someone was evaluating the different modalities, different therapeutic modalities. And this was primarily talk therapy modalities. So cognitive behavioral versus dialectical behavioral. The different forms of talk therapy, not so much with the somatic forms of therapy. And essentially what it all boiled down to was it didn't matter what modality it was. Did the client feel loved? Did the client feel loved by the therapist? That was where the result came. It was when they felt loved. So to your point, I think there are differences. Obviously, we're talking. That's what this whole episode is about. And I'm going to get to those. And there is also just something to be said for the connection between the facilitator, whoever it is, and the client, that when there is that fit, when there is that click, when you feel their care and their regard for you, you're gonna get results. And they might not be all the results you want or in the right order or to the extent that you want, but there will be results. When you feel loved and held, things happen. There's something about feeling loved that helps us transform. There's just something about it feeling loved, deeply seen, deeply accepted. And I think that brings me to my next point about therapy, about. And when I'm using the word therapy in general, I'd say in our culture, we tend to mean talk therapy. The default when I use the word therapy is talk therapy. It's why we talk about somatic therapy separately. So for the most part, when I'm saying the word therapy here, that's what I mean. Someone once described it to me as this was a therapist. I have a lot of friends who are therapists, and they said, basically, I am the parent that this person never had. So, to your point, Jason, the consistency, feeling the unconditional approval of that person, feeling guided in some ways by them, but mostly them listening, a lot of listening and just feeling attuned to a lot of people didn't get that as children. And that is damaging. Just going to say it out loud. It's damaging when you aren't attuned to. There isn't someone slowing down, being with you, helping you explore your experience of the world, listening to how you're feeling, helping you understand how you're feeling, put words to it, all of that, that is the role of a parent. So there, I think is a lot of value to reparenting being re parented or being parented in the first place with a therapist, particularly like you said, with the cadence and the consistency. And if you think about a child or a young adult, that's not the only place they're learning about the world. And when they have specific desires or places they want to go in their life, their parent might not be able to get them there. Right. So if you're talking about sports or you're talking about college application essays or you're talking about tutoring, or when the, the child has things that they want in their life or places they want to develop, their parent isn't going to be able to do everything. So it takes more than just that. And so to your point, I think that therapy and coaching coexist nicely and symbiotically. And I would say that a good number of our clients have therapists at the time that they're doing coaching or have worked with therapists in the past and that has built. They have a foundation to go on around coaching. And that's what some of the men talked about in their shares. And there was sort of a trend in the shares around to your point, you know, exploring the past versus exploring the present and the future. So one man said, the biggest difference for me has been that therapy is focused on processing the past so that it doesn't limit you, whereas coaching is focused on building skills for what you want in your future. I've been in therapy for depression for nearly two years now. The stuff in there has been around learning the significant emotional events that led to a lot of my coping mechanisms and behaviors. By understanding those, I can then learn new behaviors that help me live the life that I want. Obviously there's overlap between the two, but in a nutshell, therapy equals why do I feel this way? How do I process this? Coaching equals I feel this way, what do I do about it? Where do I want to go next? And he said, in contrast to therapy, in the coaching that I did with Mel and Jason, a lot of what I picked up was skills and reflection around subjects like what do I want, how do I want to feel, how do I go about X, Y, Z, for example, approaching someone, building a relationship, generating polarity, whatever it is. So I think that's a. That's a good example of. It's not that one or the other is more valuable. It's that they work together. And at different seasons, you need different things. And as you develop, you might need more sort of directed, focused attention. And with experienced people that know the route. Right. Versus just a general kind of ear. Right. Someone to really deeply hear you and love you exactly as you are. Yeah. I have one more quote that I want to pull out from this, but do you have anything to add on that while I look for that?

Jason Lange: Just that. Yeah, I think that's a great kind of framework there of. You know, I'm thinking of in terms. I had a family member who had a illness last year, and there were pretty two. There were two pretty distinct phases. There was the acute aftermath in kind of the. The hospital, like just getting back to baseline, tending to the whole system, making sure things felt okay and whatnot. It's like kind of stabilizing, you know, in a lot of sense. I think the. The great gift of therapy can. It can. It just can stabilize us. It can kind of bring us back to a point where we even have some resource to try to move forward. And in this example, then after there was stabilization, we went into rehab. Right. In rehab was okay. Now you got to actually learn and practice these skills that are going to manifest differently than they did in your life before. So we have to learn to work with that, and you actually have to practice and try these things and. And whatnot. And I think that's a. Just an example of kind of what we're talking about here. And again, there's always going to be overlap between the two, but coaching often does. Often, often does. I mean, there's kind of the life coach in general, but most people I know that go with the coaching route. There's a little more specificity. Right. It's like I want coaching around my relationship or my sports performance or my business or my finances or my creativity and my writing or whatnot. It's not always the case, but there. There does tend to be more of a tendency towards that. For the very reasons you spoke about.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And to that point, one of the. One of our men said, in terms of the difference. Therapy has been a lot of self reflection and learning about who I am and why I am the way I am. It has been more of an introspective experience. Coaching has been about intentional goals, practices and habit changes to drive the long term change. I want to see therapy exposed. The areas I want to work on, coaching allows me to work on them efficiently. I do both in parallel with different people and find the combination to be complementary and not overlapping or in conflict. And I think that, you know, there's something interesting too about, you know, therapy versus coaching with respect to community. So for example, our coaching program includes community. So it's community coaching and coursework. So. And there's a structure which is another thing that differs, I think between coaching and therapy is most therapy doesn't have a structure, right. It's you. You show up and you're talking about what's happening in your life. And of course there are through lines when you, when you've been seeing someone for a long time. But that's different than we are taking you through a course. We have different exercises and modalities that we bring in and, and then you're processing. How was that for you? What are you learning through this exercise? There's a lot of action and course, but there's also community. And that was something that came up in many, many men's responses with respect to coaching. With us was having teammates, having people that were witnessing their journey along the way and that, you know, you know, one man said the fact that they're. One of the questions was what has been valuable to you from coaching? And he said the fact that there are so many people dealing with very similar feelings and situations that there is hope. Coaching creates a symbiotic relationship with fellow teammates and you inspire one another, you listen to one another, and the lessons I learned from coaching stay with me my whole life. Not that lessons from therapy don't, but there is something that I have seen repeatedly and witnessed that is distinct in group work, which our program is a group program and not all coaching is, but a lot of coaching that I have experienced myself has had a group element to it. And in our group, for example, let's say that a man is talking about having trouble getting it up with his woman and this is the first time he's shared that in sort of a, not a public space, but in a shared space. And at least three other men have had that experience too, or are having that experience right now. There is, you can see the relaxation that happens in his body of oh my God, I'm not alone. And he might intellectually know that other men go through this, but seeing their faces, hearing their stories, viscerally knowing in his body, I am not alone here. And then having some coaching support from people and a community where men have gotten through that they've gotten to the other side is invaluable. And that is not always possible in a one on one relationship because you, it's just you and someone else, it's just you and your mentor, just you and your therapist or whoever it is, versus the shared space. And again, I would say that over and over, as a coach myself, witnessing the power of the group and the power of being held by the group as well as by the coaches is transformative, inherently transformative in a way that again, if you think back to children, there's your parent. But then if you imagine being in a peer group, right, in a peer scenario and you're, you're getting some support or you're sharing and you're hearing from other, other young men having the same experience as you, being nervous, like let's say being nervous to ask out someone they like, you know, that you're nervous. But hearing other people share, that can be deeply healing. And it doesn't fix it, but it somehow transforms it, it somehow makes it different to know that other people are going through this. And when we feel alone, things tend to feel a lot worse. When we feel connected, things feel better and there tends to be more action that's able to be taken. You're able to take action more because you know you're not alone. Can you speak to that at all?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I've just seen it in everything we've created and all the groups I've been part of of. It's oftentimes something guys are just aching for and has such a medicinal quality to it in itself when they just get in the group and that, you know what we kind of call the, the sunshine effect of like, oh yeah, somebody's win or celebration then kind of starts to charge me up and then you just start charging each other up. And it's a really positive thing. That for a lot of men is really different too because for a lot of men they're used to other men being competition. And in this kind of group it's like, oh, these guys are my allies and they can inspire me and support me. And that in itself like takes such a heavy load off. So many, so many of our guys just, oh, here I can come with anything here. And it's okay. And I can also share my wins here, you know, which is also okay. So it's, it's, it's one of my favorite things about how we do it and why, you know, groups are really my favorite place to work. Work.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think that's another sort of difference is, for example, in our program, men do work with us one on one and in the group, so they get the experience of both. It's not the same cadence and consistency of therapy over the course of years, for example, but you do get that combination, which I think is also a bit unique, unless you are working with a therapist who recommends a group for you, which happens sometimes. But speaking of recommendations, I thought this was a really great point. This person was talking about what has been valuable to you about. About each of them. He said, what has been valuable to you from therapy? Healing childhood developmental wounds. Building my psychological safety and self loyalty. I love that term, by the way. Self loyalty rather than self abandonment. Building profound understanding of my own unique strengths and tendencies and how to face the world head on and grow from each challenge. And then he, when we asked what has been valuable to you from coaching, he says, a community of people on a similar path. And then he says, in most of all, in basically all cases, a therapist can't legally or ethically say, hey, there's this other guy in my practice who I think you'd groove with. And that really caught my attention because many, many times we have a new man sign up, and I think right away I'm going to connect you to this alumni. Like, I have an alumni that has a very similar story to you. I'm thinking, particularly, we've had men who are trying to evaluate their relationship. Am I going to stay in this relationship? Is this healthy? Or there's a separation or divorce happening already, and the man's maybe unsure, like, am I going to get through this? What's my life going to look like after? And we have a lot of men in our community now who we've, you know, shepherded through that process, the process of separating and, and life on the other side. And so right away, we're linking men up with others of different, of a. Of a similar, with a similar background. And I had never thought about that, but it's true, right? Ethically, a therapist can't do that because of. Of the kinds of confidentiality that they're working with. And, and it's fascinating to me because I actually know. Do I know more than one? I know at least one coach. I'm sorry yeah, at least one coach who was a therapist and actually retired from psychotherapy because she wanted more freedom in her practice. She wanted to be able to make introductions, hug her clients, be able to be more direct and directive in what she told people. And so I do think there's a certain. There are some limitations that therapists work with sometimes that coaches don't work with. And then his last point was. Or he had two more points. One was introduction to that coaches introduce methods or frames of experiencing the world outside of the mainstream canon, for example, outside of western therapies. So coaches like us might take people through breath work, for example, or other ways of, ways of being, ways of processing that are more somatic, that have a more of a basis and a grounding in other fields. Not for example, just we are doing cbt, we are doing cognitive behavioral therapy. That's the modality. There's more involved. And then lastly, he said more regular and informal contact, depending on the coach. And if you can afford it. For example, most therapists will not share a cell number and be open to email interactions. Outside of billing and scheduling, some coaches are more open and the human connection dimension is part of how they improve coaching. And I think that's a good point that many of the coaches that I have worked with, and I would say us as well, there's more accessibility. There's more accessibility, there's more holding between sessions. And that's something that I have found valuable when I have been coached, when I have had a coach, is the regularity of it. So I'm thinking about, you know, a business coach that I worked with for a while where we had a voxing relationship. Voxer is a voice memo app. So I was able to vox him throughout the week as I was working on my material between sessions, where I actually saw him in person. And that was invaluable because I could see, you know, on a Monday or Tuesday, like, hey, here's what I'm working on. What do you think about this copy? Or what do you think about this? And it wasn't just copy related. I could also talk about emotional things that were coming up for me, you know, fears or insecurities or whatever it is. And I got a more immediate response. And I think that's not something I had thought about before these responses came in. But it's a good, it's a good nuanced, you know, difference between, between the two modalities. And I'm curious if you also had that experience when you were working with a therapist versus a Coach?

Jason Lange: Yeah. I think part of, you know, this is part of what creates a tremendous amount of safety with therapy is it is much more restricted in terms of guidelines and safety and protocols and the schooling people have to go through. There is, in a sense, there's more bureaucracy there that someone has to go through. It can be the wild west with coaching. Like, let's be honest about that. Anyone can go on Instagram and call themselves a coach. And there's no real vetting in. In that process. There's a lot more vetting in the kind of traditional psychotherapeutic model. But that also comes with a little more boundary. Right. Which is good, though, in the sense that often those connections are very intimate, very close, very long term. There's an awareness of transference and all the things that can happen in that relationship and, and that model that they've created, safeguards for all that. But some of those safeguards then actually, like, like you said, provide a little bit less flexibility in these other arenas, like that connection between and. Yeah, my therapist, you know, there was no real connection in between sessions. It was like we come in and this is what we do. And that was what was useful for me at the time. Other, you know, more coaching relationships I've had. Yeah, there's. There's definitely more touch points in terms of our interactions in between because oftentimes there is something active I'm working on in between and they want updates about that. Right. So it creates a little bit more frequency than the traditional therapeutic model.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great point. I think this person's share sort of touches on that. What has been valuable to you from therapy? He says, I appreciate having an active listener who can guide my own thoughts and introspection. My therapist validates what I'm thinking and feeling, but also is not afraid to respectfully challenge me when he feels my thinking is off. I always feel in control of what and where we go, depending on what feels right in the moment. And then what has been valuable to you from coaching? I appreciate having goals about what I want to get out of coaching and tangible actions and steps to get there. I leave with homework to take out into the world and experiment and report back on. So it's experiential, not just theoretical or just talking because there's accountability to discuss. The last week, I'm more intentional about doing the homework and making meaningful actions. My coaches also pick up on small nuances I don't see and ask questions that deepen insights about myself and areas to drive focus and more Intention. From my experience, the difference between therapy and coaching is that coaching provided a structured environment that allowed me to gain practical tools and exercises that helped in areas such as identifying the state of my nervous system and expanding my emotional capacity for myself and others. Therapy focused solely on building awareness, which is certainly an important step, but didn't help much without also gaining tools and knowledge to help implement meaningful change in my life. There was also a strong community component in the coaching that made me realize I am not alone in my experience and it is okay to ask for help. And again, I think that last part comes back to being in a community of men who are sharing and being vulnerable and open, I think, changes, changes a man just being in the community, just being around that and being around someone like you who's open and transparent and there, there is something about that that is inherently helpful. And then the, the goal setting and accountability and all of that. We're not necessarily talking about huge goals either. Like, I'm thinking about, you know, some of our men and the, and the goals and what they're, what they're seeking. You know, we've had, for example, men that, that have never had sex, right. That they're. That one of the things, one of their goals is to have sex for the first time. And in, in somewhere like therapy, you know, they might explore why that is what happened in your past. You know, again, like coming to awareness. And in coaching, we're, we're talking about, yeah, we're talking about some of that. We're talking about the past. We're including the past. And we're also talking about, where are you meeting people? Let's picture it going well. You know, let's look at your profile. Let's, you know, take some actions and, and build some momentum around this. Hold the vision, connect you to other men in our community who've had sex for the first time during coaching. Right. Like giving you that concrete hope. Because it's very different to just be exploring that topic with your therapist versus talking to another guy who says, oh, yeah, I felt like a, you know, I felt like totally out of place. You know, I was, however old and had never had sex. And, you know, and then, yeah, it just, it worked. You know, I did the things that, that, that we talked about in coaching, and I met this woman and talked to her and, you know, took her home. And one of my fears was, was she going to be able to tell? Like, she wasn't able to tell. We had a great time. We're still seeing each other or Whatever it is. And there's something about that moment of wow, if this person did it, I can too. And the way they're telling the story and feels really accessible, it's not out of my reach. It's a concrete, real person in the world. And I think that's just one example of a place where a man might not want to share that. Right. He's in his late 20s, he's in his late 30s. He's not necessarily going to go around telling that story or open to that. So he might have met already many men in his life that were in a similar boat, but he hadn't shared it with them. So I think that again, having that safe community where we are open and sharing about all the things that are going on in this area of life and able to kind of, I say, meet each other. I mean, I'm. I'm a woman. I'm having a different lived experience, but there, there is something valuable about that community aspect. And I loved what that person said about realizing I'm not alone in my experience and it's okay to ask for help again. There's something about witnessing other men asking for help that normalizes it for, for you and just curious if you can speak to that at all.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's the. For. For a lot of men I work with and we work with. Right. We never knew there was another possibility. And so it's one thing for us to talk about it, but there's such an immediate embodied transmission when we see someone open or ask a question or be vulnerable. And it's like, oh, wow, I can really play ball here in a different way. Like, this is a different game and it's so fast and it's so comprehensive. Again, the power of that group, specifically in coaching when we're sharing and you know, it's also the, the beauty of what I really like about coaching too, in the worlds and communities I've been in, is you also get to share your failures. Right. The things that didn't go so well and then. But it's held so much more lightly of like, well, we're all here to learn. None of this is really a failure. It's more of opportunities for feedback. Right. What did get from that? What did you learn from that? So we get to share the high highs when things are going well and we get to share the lows when things didn't go so well. And that's all welcomed in this space of, well, we're kind of figuring it out. Right. We're all here, we're on the same team and we want to get better at whatever it is we're focusing on, which in our case is, you know, dating and relationships and presence and showing up in world with more vitality and fullness and direction.

Jason Lange: Absolutely. You know, I've been thinking of this as we've just been talking here of there. There's definitely an element of kind of stepping into the unknown with coaching. Like. Right. It is that forward into the unknown, where the, the therapeutic side of things is often more, like we said, kind of being okay with what is, like, can I just. Can I become okay with what is right now? And coaching does often have a little bit of, well, let's go try some experiments when we don't know how they're going to go. Right. And we're going to learn in that process and has that more kind of outward in the world energy a little bit. Whereas, you know, a therapeutic relationship can be a, a safe refuge from the world. But ideally, coaching's getting you out there and you're getting some experiences that you can then report back to with your coaches in, in real time, really. Right. And again, those two things are so symbiotic. And a lot of times, yeah, someone will come into our program and pretty quickly be like, yeah, I think you should be working with a therapist as well. Like particularly a somatic therapist or someone. So we can really be accelerating both of that, where you're getting that safety, that, that, that deep, attuned connection regularly. And then we can be helping you build the skills so as you get stabilized, you can, you can go out and get more of what you want.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I'm thinking about one of our, one of our current clients who's having pretty, pretty enormous success getting out, meeting more people, especially women. Especially women, and being more forward, more direct, more assertive, I would say. And it's a completely different experience. So he's having a lot more, he's having a lot more stimulating conversations during the day and a lot more kind of feelings of excitement and feelings of joy, and that's sparking even more aliveness in him. So there is also, I think, a virtuous cycle to trying new things and seeing what works. And I'm thinking of another client who's, yeah, just started Somatic Therapy in conjunction with coaching. And that's also a virtuous cycle because as he's starting to try new things and do new things, he can process some of those in Somatic Therapy versus, you know, staying smaller, not trying new things, not having anyone kind of nudging him or giving him, giving him the homework to, to. To get out there. There's a lot of value in getting out there and then processing what's happening as you're getting out there. Right? So it's like both of those things are needed. I did want to read this homage to therapy. I thought this was really poignant. This person said it said, what has been valuable to you from therapy? He said, fuck, I could spend hours talking about this. Simply put, without therapy, I might not be alive to write this. It's terrifying to admit, but that's how bad my depression can be, how dark the struggles can get. But it's also an example of how powerful therapy is because I can admit it. And I have proven to myself that I can endure some pretty awful. It sucks, it hurts, and there are days I want to scream and rage at the world for having been dealt this hand. But with therapy and medicine, I can create structure to deal with the shitty depths and take steps towards the joy of life that I know is out there. Through therapy, I've learned the true power of vulnerability, which allows me to better connect with my family and inner circle. The best example is when I had to be hospitalized for suicidal ideations. Young me with the stupid yet default masculine outlook of just deal with it, would never have asked for help, let alone tell people what I was struggling with. Older therapy grounded me. Was able to call my dad out of the blue and say, I need help or I might kill myself without flinching. He created a plan for me to meet my mom and sister at a nearby hospital. He reached out to my other siblings, who immediately rallied around me as well. Since then, my family has been open and honest about our individual struggles with mental illnesses and the work we're doing. That's the power of therapy. And I think that's a great example of getting to grounded, right? Getting to grounded and being able to become. What did you say? Like, okay with what is. There's such a tremendous need for that. For so many of us, that's not a trivial thing. You know, when we Talk about getting out there. It's like, if you can't get out of bed, you can't get out there, right? There's a step before getting out there and you know. Yeah, I guess I just, I want to really honor all of the therapists and all of the people who go to therapy for their bravery because it is tremendously brave to do this work. It's tremendously brave to do any of this work, therapy or coaching. But there's something really special to me and uplifting and inspiring about that story because that is a good example of the difference, right, the difference between him before therapy, him after therapy, that after therapy it was like, okay, I need help and I'm going to ask for it. And this is, this is what I'm up to. And that, the fact that he did that actually opened things up in his family, I think is another kind of example of how vulnerability, when we are vulnerable and we go first, when we lead with vulnerability, we actually serve other people and we serve the world. And that's something that we also talk about in coaching. So there is that complimentary aspect. It might look different, but there's the same foundation underneath.

Jason Lange: It's, again, this is why they work off each other so well. Is, you know, coaching in a lot of ways, it, it also takes a little bit. It takes some resource to try new things. Right. You know, and, and I sometimes I think about this in terms of, again, a generalization. But I've talked about those studies before of, you know, you can, when you have a baby wearer, you can wear the baby facing in or facing out. And we want both. We want to just be okay, feel great where we're at, feel totally safe, not feel like we have to become or push or change anything. And then we want to be able to reach into the world. Oftentimes when we have the resource to go for more. And that's really what we're kind of aiming for, you know, in coaching is, okay, I have a little resource in me now, so how do I improve this or enjoy this more or less increase my capacity or training or skill set with X, Y or Z? And when you have both, you know, it's, it's one of the really great sweet spots that's pretty unstoppable. And I think there's really a need for both. You know, coaching is one of the fastest growing professions, really. Like, more and more money is being spent on that because I think people also realize that we, we need guidance. You know, our, our, our school system, our educational System, you know, we were talking about this on a. Teaches us some things, but it misses some pretty fundamental life skills around relationships and health and taking care of ourselves. And I think part of what we're seeing in. In the coaching world like ours is we're trying to fill in the gaps there of. There's these kind of implied assumptions that you just know how to do certain things, but we don't. Right. We have to learn. And it. And it often takes someone who knows how to teach us that that's really important as well. Right. Who's still kind close to it and is good at walking us through that experientially. You know, I think that's another thing about coaching is it does tend to have a pretty big experiential component to it because there is that. Let's go run the experiment and see what data we get back, and then we'll. We'll work on that. Just like if, you know, to use that sports analogy, just like if we are debriefing a game or in practice, like, let's go out there, let's hit a couple and see what happens. Oh, I noticed when you did this, you did this, and that's really important. However, you can't be out there doing that if you have such a deep injury. You can't even stand on the field, and then you need your therapist. Right. And. And even in between practices, you got to be taking care of your body, you got to be tending it, you got to be seeing the masseuse, you got to be taking care of the vessel. So you have the resource to challenge yourself.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And I. I would love to read this response that I think touches on what you're saying, which is what, for you has been the primary difference between therapy and coaching. He says, I'd say the big difference for me is that I got a coach when I felt stuck and wanted training or practical advice. It's better when you know the outcome you want. Therapy is better for when you have no idea what you want, but you really need somebody to hear you in your isolation or distress. What has been valuable to you from therapy? Feeling normal with the things I struggle with. Learning how I can get trapped by thinking what has been valuable to you from coaching? Feeling hopeful that I can change my perception and not just dream of a better life, as if it were a problem to admire from a distance, but to see it as something possible and recognize the joy in moments as I live them. I'm thinking about, you know, what you. What you just described about you know, thinking about the sports analogy and scrimmaging. Scrimmaging before a game. And I'm thinking about certain one on ones that I've had where we've role played. I'm like, all right, let's do it. Let's role play that conversation with your wife. Like, I will play her. Tell me a little bit about how she might respond and let's do it. Okay, let's do it again. And there's something about actually getting the words out and actually having the felt experience of doing it. And then, you know, me being able to reflect, like, here's what I love about what you just did. That was really brave. Here's. Here's how it felt to receive that. Here's some other words you could incorporate. Here's some more phrases giving them actual, you know, conversation. Not conversation points, but actual phrases. And I'm thinking about one client where he, we role played, you know, a pretty important conversation with a woman he'd been interested in for a long time. This was a big deal kind of high stakes conversation where I was essentially coaching him on. I think she's waiting for you to claim her. I think she is interested in you from what you're describing and the signals, and she's waiting for you to claim her. And this was a man who had, I would say, been pretty passive in his life when it came to women, especially in his. In his past marriage, and wasn't totally used to how. Okay, what the does that mean? Claiming? Right. And so we walked through it and I gave him some phrases and he tried it out and we had the conversation and I gave him some more phrases and he had that conversation and they started a relationship and it's the best relationship of his life. That is not going to happen in every scenario. But when I think about that, there, there was a lot of. Yeah, coaching is the word that comes to mind. There was coaching involved. Here's what I think is happening. Here's what I think you might want to say. There's. There's more directive language that's possible, I think, in coaching versus something like therapy. And that can be. There's such a place for that. There's such a place for that, such a rule for that. And I really loved, you know, this man's description that I just read where he said what's valuable about coaching is not just dreaming of a better life as if it were a problem to admire from a distance, but seeing it as something possible and actionable. He didn't use the word Actionable. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna use that word of yes, that is possible. How do I get there? Instead of, oh, maybe at some point someday that might be nice. It's like, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna be with you as you work towards that, which I think is a different orientation.

Jason Lange: Well, I, I'll, I think just to end here is like, we're here to help. You know, I live, I live for this stuff, open guys, and it's just such a joy. And, you know, I think we've also become pretty good at, you know, in a, in another interesting way, helping guys find the right therapist. You know, that's often a very common topic when we're working with men or on our group calls is like, where do I start to look? Who do I start to look for? As well? Because not all the time, but, you know, some men are a little more open to stepping into the coaching world first. And then it's in, in the kind of. Nor in our world, it's normalized to be in therapy. And suddenly it's like, oh, okay, that's, that's something I can do. It doesn't mean I'm broken or there's something wrong with me again. It's just cross training. So we often, you know, our work is often a conduit to a lot of therapeutic healing for, for men. So we're, we're here in support of the therapist as well. Like, we can't do this without you. And, you know, we hope we can offer something to, to your clients as well, just in terms of the specificity of what we're working and how that creates a certain momentum with the men. And a lot of guys that come to us, they just feel really stuck. I feel stuck. And I, I want to know what steps do I take to get there? And we give you, you know, we give you the step by step, just walk onto this path and something's going to happen on the other end. Right? That's about as much as we can say something's going to happen, but something does happen pretty much every time.

Melanie Curtin: Time. Yes. And I, I would also offer that. I, I think it's symbiotic in another way, which is I know multiple therapists who have referred men to us and, or to the podcast because they have recognized sort of like, I'm one person and you need more than just me. Right? You need more than just me. And I can, I can see how this is valuable. So there's a lot of symbiosis there. If you are interested in coaching with us, you can always go to Evolutionary Men slash Apply. We would love to work with you. And if you are interested in the Patreon for the podcast, you can just Google Patreon Dear Men Podcast. If you join at a 10amonth level or more, you get access to a live Q and A with me every month. So we just did that at the end of February. The next one should be coming up in about a week or 10 days, something like that. Oh actually it might be sooner depending on when this drops. So. So yeah, if you're interested in that, just go to Patreon. It'll tell you when the next date for the Q and A is and we will catch you next time.