293: Give it to me whining! (Ft. Jason & Violet Lange) | Dear Men

Melanie Curtin: Like chocolate is not going to help with this. Shopping is not going to help with this. Like maybe will help with this, but like, ugh, I just like want something. I don't even know what it is. Hey everyone, before we start this episode, I wanted to share a really special email that I received. I got this on the 1st of the year and it is from a longtime client and community member. Daniel, you know who you are, and I wanted to share this because I think it dovetails with the episode and it deeply touched my heart and I'm going to read it and I might get emotional. So we'll see. We'll see how this goes. It definitely made me cry the first time that I read it and it was, I think, a signpost or a guiding light for me in a moment when I needed to hear something like this. So thank you Daniel in advance and without further ado, here is the email Hi Melanie, There was something that came up to me internally in the past couple of weeks that I want that made me want to write this email. After listening to many of the episodes on your podcast, as well as the ones you were in that were apart from the Dear Men podcast, I feel like there's something I should say. First, I want to reiterate that we as men in the modern age have arrested emotional development because of the influence of patriarchal culture and pressure to fit the status quo of what's hip greatly appeal to our animal nature. We live in a culture that indirectly disincentivizes us men to see deeply one another, to deeply see one another, and so we become incredibly self absorbed. We men have failed a lot and women feel lonely, sad and terrified that a glorified culture of arrested emotional development is prevalent for many men. Women feel pressured to please men and not be a burden to them, and so somewhere along the way their full emotionality becomes stunted. That many men fail to hold the full emotionality of women is in some way linked to the patriarchal culture originating from long ago and still existing today, having affected men today as well as the men they were raised by. I have appreciated more deeply that not holding women's full emotionality and seeing them makes them deeply mad and resentful. In 2024, I am optimistic enough to believe that your contributions in this world will tackle this long standing habit of men not seeing women. I have learned through your episodes that though you have an incredible amount of empathy, work ethic, intelligence, attunement abilities and resilience, the fear of hurting a man's feelings and being shamed, embarrassed or attacked by men remains a powerful one for you. This Fear sucks the segment between 3,035 and 3,528 of the heart Cock Matrix episode from the Amory podcast got my attention in regards to why women, even those who have done tremendous growth work, don't speak up during sex, which is a deeply important act for them. Additionally, you and Violet discussed the fear of being too much whether it's too assertive with complicated, unpleasant emotions you hold or too straightforward with your sexual desires. Among other issues, this fear has made many women feel smaller in spite of their desire to receive validation or acceptance. That sense of repeated stifling has contributed to women's loneliness around men. Men not being interested in all of women's parts and refusing to welcome all of them can feel very sad. Millions and millions of men around the world have a gap in their feelings and don't want to feel their own grief or rage, and so they are reluctant to hold women such as yourself if they are in a turbulent state. Loving someone unconditionally involves accepting all of their parts and and not avoiding. For example, when a woman is in her feminine storm, feeling one's deepest feelings and holding and having one hold space for them is important for deep love to flourish. In 2024, all of these negative aspects will continue I know that I'm still a young man, but I feel like many of female adults, including those your age, desire being deeply held, even when they feel turbulent, just like children and teens do when they feel immensely stressed or conflicted. I acknowledge that I have male privilege. I do not have as deep a fear of speaking up about things that hurt me. Compared to many women having done this consciousness work, I feel us men should keep on improving on holding other people's storms and complex feelings. I wish for you to be deeply held, no matter your feminine storms or bouts of rage and grief. It can feel lonely at times to be surrounded by men who just don't understand or tolerate complex feelings, but you are contributing and making a difference in this world. 2024 will have many unconscious people navigating the world, even those who are in positions of power. Man children will continue to be praised, but it's people like you who help us grow authentically instead of just going through the normal physical maturation as adults. The four seasons of the year can be unpredictable in what they deliver, and there are natural disasters such as hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis, among others that can come out of nowhere. But it's up to us men to hold steady and still and embodied and act as the powerful structures that can withstand those disaster and any other volatility that can come at us emotionally while we are in community with others. I want you to know that you make many people proud and seen and that their lives have changed because of you. Your solutions to the country in regards to improving one's emotional lives are more effective than any solution that either candidate running for the 2024 presidential election in November will have or will have proposed. You matter so much, and we're here to be there with each other in community, even when deep trouble may come. I hope this email starts your 2024 on the right foot. Well, as expected, I did get emotional. And I want to say thank you to you, Daniel, and thank you to all of you listeners and all of you men out there who are. Who are growing and who are leaning into the work and who are becoming more conscious. You are inspirational to me. You are why I do what I do. And I have a lot of hope for the future because of men like you who are growing. And not just who are growing yourselves, but the. The children that you're raising. Right. The way that you're changing culture in your workplaces and everywhere that you go. Because what I see in my clients is that as they grow and expand, they touch everyone around them, and there's a ripple effect that cascades through their lives. So I just want to commend all of you for being here and growing, continuing the work, and I just want to praise you and honor you and say thank you. And that's. That's. Yeah. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode. I both Jason and Violet here with me today to do an episode on Give it to Me Whining. Give It To Me Whining. Really excited about this. So thanks for being here, both of you.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: Stoked to be here.

Jason Lange: It's a little impromptu having Violet, but it worked out perfectly.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I'm having fun. Okay. So. So there's a lot of different ways to relate with each other, especially when it comes to having feelings and expressing feelings. And basically today we're talking about essentially third stage relating, which is an advanced concept, and we have talked about first, second, and third stage relating before. We will do a very, very brief recap of this here, but if you are interested in that, I would encourage you to go back through to the episodes on that, which I will drop in the show notes of this one. So essentially, first stage relating is when we're in very rigid roles. So I am this role. You are that role. So, like, I cook and clean you, you make the money. This is. These are the rules that we have. This is how we relate to each other. There's often straight up dependence or codependence in relationships like that. Not a lot of fluidity or flexibility. And then we get to second stage relationships, and that is where there's tends to be a lot more equity and a lot more equality energy. But also sometimes that comes at the cost of polarity. So we, you know, we talk everything through and we use nonviolent communication, and there's nothing wrong with any of those things. And in order to get to third stage relating, we sort of have to go through all of the stages. And then third stage relating is kind of a cutting edge concept, I would say. There's sort of. It's a newer concept to a lot of us, and it has to do with more embodiment, a lot more embodiment creativity flowing between roles, flowing between energies and bringing just more kind of playfulness and heat, sometimes playfulness, heat authenticity in like a. Like a. I don't know what it's like, fiery way or just bringing a lot more intensity in a fun and dynamic way. So give it to me. Whining. The title of this episode is part of a situation that I had with, with my previous partner where I was, you know, listening to him talk about basically successes that he was experiencing. And at the time, I was in a really, really tough place. And I said, I sort of. I think I stopped him at one point. I was like, hey, I'm noticing I'm having, like, a response to this, and I'm wondering if I can, like, can I whine a little bit? Would that be okay? Like, I really want to whine right now. And he was like, sure. And so I was like, I want to be successful too. I want to be successful too. And then I whined for, I don't know, 90 seconds, like, not a very long time. But that is a brief example of third stage relating, right? Where it's not like I'm giving you this mature, you know, expression of myself, but just straight up, like, here's the part of me that's hurting, or here's the part of me that's wanting something, and I'm gonna kind of express it in my fullness. And the reason that I'm bringing this to the podcast is that this is an advanced concept that I think can really generate a lot of polarity in a relationship, especially when the alpha partner, the person holding alpha, is encouraging the Person holding Omega to, like, bring it all, like, give it to me whining, like, bring, bring even more, like, that's hot. You know, rather than shutting her down or, you know, and I'm using him, her language. This can be anyone in any relationship. This is just as we've discussed with polarity. It's not about what type of body you're in, but we're going to do him and her for today for ease of that conversation. But that's one example of kind of what we're talking about, of how we're communicating, but doing it in kind of a creative, fun, third stage sort of way. So I would love to hear from each of you about how you feel like you've grown in your relationship around this kind of relating. You know, were you able to do this right away? Like, what. What has happened? And if you can each give an example of a time when you've brought this, or let's say, encouraged it from your partner in a way that kind of contributed to the relation, contributed to the relationship, contributed to the polarity.

Jason Lange: Sure. Yeah. I can start in. First thing I'll say is I'm probably actually naturally better at stage two, kind of the spacious processing style. And it's an edge for me, just like anyone listening to this to. To. I'm very much learning and still trying to get better at this as a practice. And when we first met, I didn't even know about a lot of this stuff, honestly. These are terms and concepts that I learned in some of my trainings and. And since then, and that we've gotten to experiment with as we continued our relationship and marriage. One thing I have become super clear about, I'd say particularly just in the recent months, is I'm way more capable of having spaciousness for the third stage, like even just bringing a little play into it when I'm resourced, like when I actually just have the energy. If I'm low energy, which I have definitely been periods of our relationship, it just kind of go to the more default of like, oh, yeah, I'm so sorry to hear that. And it's kind just like more of a, I don't know, keep it cool energy. But yeah, I'm traditionally pretty terrible at remembering these things, which is part of what inspired Violet to come on, because she has a much better memory of specific incidents of where this has come out. But one thing I have noticed is it does correlate like this third stage. It correlates to embodiment and playfulness in a lot of ways. And erotic energy. I have just started to notice that when my partner is moving this energy more through her body, I get turned on. And so just the other day, right, we were having an experience where she was just kind of in something. It wasn't even super specific. She was just feeling, like, a yearning, you would say. And she did. She kind of spontaneously. I didn't even necessarily invite her. She's just a very practiced person at this point. Started working with that energy, and I noticed it made me hard, turned me on. I was like, wow, that's making me hard, though. Which I think encouraged her to kind of play, allow herself to go into that energy even more. Because obviously I was enjoying it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I would just say that when he said, like, she was working it or being with it. My experience of this is hard to put into words, but there was just this, like, ache. And maybe Omega partners listening to this can relate. Like, chocolate is not going to help with this. Shopping is not going to help with this. Like, maybe will help with this. But, like, ugh, I just, like, want something and I don't even know what it is. And I was present to that, and I was sharing that with him verbally. And then I don't know where we were. Maybe we're sitting on the couch. I don't know what happened, but I just, like, laid down on my back on the floor and. And started moving my spine with that and kind of like arching my back face up and just being, like, making noises and moving my body. And it's not that I wasn't aware of Jason, but it was just really in my experience. And, yeah, at some point he was just like, oh, well, that's making me hard. And then I laughed, and then I just did a little bit more, not thinking of anything. And then a few minutes later, he's like, come on, stand up. And he, like, helped me get up from the floor and took me to another room and we had some delicious lovemaking. But that wasn't my intention when I was doing that. I was just noticing this energy in my body and bringing him into that experience with me. Yeah, there's a couple of things to notice there, and there's a couple of aspects to third stage relating. So one of them is that the partner who's embodying Omega, like, has to be willing to be seen in her flow, like. Or whatever. Like, I just. I want something. I want it, and I don't know what it is, and I'm, like, willing to be seen in my mess. I think that's what it is. I'm willing to be seen in my mess. And that is a process, honestly, that is a. It's an. It can be really edgy and really vulnerable for a lot of Omega people or people who like to hold Omega, to open up to that possibility, to be willing to be seen there. And for really good reason. Really good reason. Because a lot of the time, let's say in our family of origin, we were not. What is the word? We weren't praised. We weren't given accolades for expression. We were actually told to repress. And this goes for both women and men. But I'm going to focus on women for now. So, you know, I can say that I was. What is the word? I'm trying to find a word. It's not praised. I was rewarded. Rewarded. I was rewarded for working hard, getting good grades, being good at what I did, kind of like buttoning it up, sort of like being more contained. And I think that's true for basically everyone in our culture in North America, and I would say probably the west as well, in many parts of the world, is we're not rewarded for being expressive. We're not rewarded for being big and loud and embodied. We're rewarded for being an alpha. Right? We're rewarded for being logical, straightforward, well thought out. You know, you got your thesis statement, then you got your three backup paragraphs and your conclusion, and you're going to get an A. That's not what this is. So a lot of what I see, polarity, work, and third stage relating is bringing back elements of what we were told not to be or not to show. So that's aspect one is the Omega partner has to be willing to be in her flow, full flow, and be seen in her full flow, right? And then the. The alpha partner, the person holding Alpha. To Jason's point, there's a couple of things. One is must be resourced enough to be able to receive that well, right? For this to flow well, he's got to be receipt. He's got to be able to receive that. That well. And then also to kind of like, yeah, encourage her in some way, encouraging her. And. And this is sort of one of those things where I think, like, wow, that's making me hard. That is great encouragement. That is like, okay, he approves of me. He sees me. He approves of what I'm doing. He's not like, what are you doing? Why are you on the floor? Right. All of the messages that I think a lot of, you know, what our culture would say is like, that's so weird. Like, you're not a child. You know, say it with. Use your words. Right? Like, there's so many messages of discouragement that could have come at that point that Jason didn't do and instead was like, wow, that's actually really turning me on. That's encouraging. That's an encouraging thing to say. It's. I see you, and that's working for me. Like, I like that. And that is also a skill. And then the last thing which we're going to get to in this episode is how an Alpha partner can actually elicit this from her, from his woman. The reason the title of this episode is called Give It To Me Whining is because, yes, if you are with a woman who is fully in her Omega flow already and doing this, like, that's one thing, but most of us aren't. Right? Most people aren't. Most people need a little encouragement. We need some help to get there. And you, if you are a man listening to this holding Alpha in your relationship, you can actually help bring some of this out. You can actually help her express and help her get to that. So it's not just one or the other. It's not just she has to know how to do all this. This already, but she does have a certain willingness, which I think you can speak to a little bit, Violet. And then there's. And then if there is that willingness, there's so much that a person holding Alpha can do to help, like, bring it out and help it become embodied. So I'm curious if maybe we can do it in that order, where, Violet, you can share a little bit about, since you do work with women, about kind of what it takes to become the woman who's willing to get on the floor and be like, oh, I want something. What is it? You know? Yeah, I think Jason and you both spoke to it. It's really getting in touch with the body. I remember in my late 20s, I would have all sorts of emotions, but if someone asked me how I'd feeling, how I was feeling, I either was like, I'm feeling a little off or like, I'm good. Like, I had no vocabulary to talk about how I was feeling. I had no idea what I was feeling in my body. Like, it was all just based on was I meeting my. My goals in my mind or like, looking or performing a certain way as. As what I thought would get me praise. And the embodiment is going to be different for every person. But what I find is often missed is connecting to our sexual energy. So you can be embodied by working out or doing yoga. I did yoga for I don't know how long, you know, 12 years or something. But when I started working with yoni eggs, when I started doing yoni massage, when I started doing genital de armaturing, when I started working with tre and other modalities to get to my nervous system, it's like the energy that flows through a stage three practice is nervous system energy. And you know, that lives in the body, that lives in the breath, that lives in sound. Most tantra or like union practices, whether there's sex involved or not, is about breath, sound and movement. So you'd have to condition yourself to be able to use those three ways of communicating through the body. And I think it's really helpful to have a practice group of women, or maybe it's just a practice group of one other person, like your coach or your therapist. At times there's helpful to have co ed practice groups, but places where you can take an archetypal energy, let's say like the hot mess. The hot mess is part of this. Like, give it to me whiny. And I had so much resistance to the hot mess because exactly to your point, like, she was moody, she was pouty. The things that got me in big trouble with my parents, like I would be spanked or like, if I was whining, it was not okay. It was just chin up, keep going forward, never give an inch. And so I had some disdain for this, like, teenage or younger part of me that was the hot mess. But seeing how much Jason enjoyed it, I was like, oh, maybe it's okay for me to be a hot mess sometimes or to be the pouty diva or to like not have it all together. So where I'm going with this, I guess, is, yeah, embodiment, breath work, sounding, practice group of other women to work with. Definitely connecting to your sexuality and then giving yourself permission to try on these archetypal energies, Especially in the presence of other people. Because one of the things I would say to him frequently when we were dating, and I don't say it as much, but I had this idea in my mind that I should, in quotations be the cool girl. So to me, the cool girl is like, she's got everything together. She looks beautiful. And we see this in spiritual circles too. Like, oh, she's wearing the right mala beads and her hair is like perfectly tousled. And she has some emotion, but not so much as to be offensive. And like, in this Person doesn't exist, by the way. But in my mind, I thought I wanted to be this person. And all the time I would say to him when we were dating, like, don't you want to be with, like, a cool girl? Why are you going to be with someone like me who's like, got all these nasty parts? And, you know, I thought they were nasty, like my anger or my hot mess or all of these things. And he'd always be like, no, I don't want to be with someone. That'd be boring. Why would I want to be with someone who has no emotions or is totally put together? I'd say things like, oh, I have a little bit of acne. And he, like, that's okay. I had acne when I was a teenager. No big deal. Like, things that I thought were devastating. No, he had just so much compassion and acceptance for. So he helped me repattern my attachment to being the cool girl and see that in a not so positive light. Yeah. And Jason, can you, can you speak a little bit to your experience of this kind of. This kind of relating versus second stage? Because I think that's. I think a lot of what we're trained in as a culture is around second stage relating, like, oh, you know, use your words, you know, find the perfect time, just like all of that type of thing. And I'm curious, can you, can you speak a little bit as a man to the difference between, you know, Violet coming to you with that type of. Of energy or that type of sort of mind based, you know, so I've been thinking about this thing and I. That this is what I've come up with. And I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on this, like, what is it like for you to receive that kind of transmission versus the more third stage embodied?

Jason Lange: The more third stage embodied for sure is. It's more impactful. So it actually brings me more into feeling of, wow, okay, this is a. I need to pay attention. You know, she was also sharing an example of after we had our. Our child, you know, I guess mid to late Covid. I don't know, but we were about to go out for something and she basically brought me into the kitchen, was like, can I show you something? And she threw a little tantrum on the floor and kind of pointed to the dishes in the sink. And then I still wasn't getting it, and threw a tantrum and kind of literally said, you know, can you do the dishes while she was kind of tantruming? And I was like, okay, wow, this is causing a lot of pain in her nervous system. Like, okay. And, you know, it wasn't a perfect remedy, but things are much better there in. In that. That's definitely a conscious part of my processing when I walk into the kitchen now, okay, what's the status? When can I get to him? That kind of thing. And that.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: You know, that I didn't get mad at her for that. Right. Like, because it was like she was just showing me the pain in her body, and that was like, oh, okay. It wasn't even like, you never do the dishes, or it was just, this is causing me pain and discomfort. And obviously I don't want to cause her pain and discomfort. So that woke me up to something. I think that's a big thing. Stage three tends to wake us up as men. It wakes us up to something, and it's more effective. You know, I think that's a big part of it. The. From. From my side, the masculine side, I think. Not always great, but I've always had an orientation of, like, I want more. I want all. Like, you don't have to hold back. And I think our trajectory was initially, I was much better at evoking that around grief or sadness, and there was lots of that. Just we were working through a lot of stuff when. When we first met. And as we've gotten more resilient and trusting, it's moving into other kinds. Anger, frustration, resentments, longing. Longing. That's all coming online. And I feel much more welcoming of that. And I think the other. As part of that. I think a big difference between stage two and stage three, in my mind, particularly from the masculine side, is in stage two, it's about wanting it to end. So I want to release the tension and get us back to peace. Like, I want to release. I want to bring it to an end. So can we have this conversation and.

Melanie Curtin: Then be done and we solve this problem? It's like solving the problem because emotion is not acceptable or desired.

Jason Lange: Whereas stage three, like, when I'm really in that moment, it's. I just bring it all. Like, let's just ride this wave. Like, I. I don't need it to end, but just like, my only requirement is like, let's go all the way with it, you know, so that more and more and more of it. More and more and more of it. Welcoming.

Melanie Curtin: So hot.

Jason Lange: There's just much more of that energy where it's not about bringing it to an end. It's. I mean, it's about bringing it to completion in a sense. But the completion is the full expression. So it's not, I want it to end, it's like, oh, just like, let's go for full expression here. And that's definitely a difference that, you know, I'm getting better at. And a big part of it is work I've been doing on myself and being able to hold my own boundaries and feel calm in my own nervous system. And you know, I think for an alpha masculine partner to be able to do that, you have to not fear your partner's emotions or their nervous system. It's just, that's the thing that I think really I, I used to fall prey to you and it's not like I'm not ever going to again. But there's like a, ah, like I, man, if she's really pissed at me, like I don't want to feel that, but it's like, okay, like she's just got to feel her feels and I got to feel my feels. So let's go right into it. And that welcoming of, of all of it I think is the big difference. And then the embodiment piece, you know, I think the other thing to tie into all this is the embodiment. It, it honors the emotional energy in a different way that I think stage two doesn't like the processing. It's, it's so cognitive and it's so up here where oftentimes the woundings, the resentments, the hurts, the desires, they're happening at a more root emotional level. And developmentally the way we worked is right. We had emotions before, we have the ability to share them, to be cognizant of them. Right? So a 2 year old can be pissed or devastated before they can say I'm pissed or devast. The emotion is in the body and so the ways to like best be and express and be in that energy are. Well, what could a two year old do? Right? Which often involves more of the body, right? So it's the breath energy and what did you say? Sound.

Melanie Curtin: Breath, sound and movement.

Jason Lange: Breath, sound and movement. Right. Kid. Kids can do that. Sometimes that sound can be words, but a lot of times it can be other stuff. And when we bring it from there, it, it just, it works with the emotional energy so much more powerfully in, in my experience and allows for something to move through. And then because emotional energy is in the body, right? Emotions are sensations in the body. It's like where they start. It's also one of the fastest, fastest ways I find to eroticize a moment. The more there's body involved the more erotic energy there is kind of on tap. So when we play in that space or, you know, even the place of, like, give it to me whining and, like, whine like, you're 10 years old. Right. Or who's the. The Charlie and the Chocolate Factory girl?

Melanie Curtin: I am. Veruca Salt.

Jason Lange: Veruca Salt. Or, you know, she's got that really whiny energy. Like, you can just. You can feel that archetype of, like, what it would mean to just. Yeah, just bring me that, like, give it to me like, Veruca Salt. Right. Like, give it to me whiny.

Melanie Curtin: Or as Jason said once, give it to me like a hippo. He had me do a hippo dance when I was complaining about something, and it made us both crack up.

Jason Lange: Yeah. It wasn't to get rid of the energy. It was to. To liberate it even more. Like, how can you express that? And so, again, as. As the alpha or masculine partner. Right. What you're doing is through your direction, you're inviting expression. So hippo is just a lens. It could have been anything. Right. It could be. It's just a lens for the expression that sometimes gives it a little form so then she could fully pull. Pour her feelings into it.

Melanie Curtin: I want to just add one other thing too, which is that he just said the word direction, and it totally sparks something in me. Because what I find is when we're in stage two, there's a lot of mirroring happening. Like, oh, I'm sad about this thing. Well, I'm sad about this thing. Well, I'm sad about that thing. And it's like, then I don't feel like I'm getting the attention in quotations that I want or the. The awareness that I want. We're just kind of both in victim mode. But when he's bringing direction, like, oh, okay, show me what that looks like. Or, give it to me like a hippo. Or, where's your pouty ness? Or, wow, that's hot. That's sexy. Give me more. That gave me a heart on. He says that too. Sometimes my emotions give him a heart on. And, like, he wants more of my emotions. Then there is, like, directionality. He's directing me. I'm opening up. Then I feel more resource, and I have more capacity to hold space for him when he needs to go there. Like, there's an actual flow versus everything getting damped down. Yeah. And I feel like I need to share, like, my own longing because this. This is part of why we're doing this episode is. There are so many Omega partners that. That really want this. Like, we are longing for this from our partners. Like, we're like, I want to be expressed. I want you to want my expression. I want you to be able to hold my expression. I want you to encourage my expression. And there's. And I'm working so hard, like, a lot of us are working so hard to contain ourselves or to say it perfectly or to be. To have it together and to have a partner say, like, I want it messy. Give it to me messy. Give me all of. Of it. Like, that's such a gift. Like, that's part of why I wanted to do this episode was to kind of let all of you in that are listening, that are men, on how much longing, like, how much you can provide to an Omega partner if you can. If you can. If you can get this and if you can lead her a year and if you can direct her in these moments. Because, again, like, there is a given a take, right? You're not going to be able to direct a woman who's completely closed. Of course. Like, we. We're not saying that, but you can direct women who are. Who are more open. And this can open up a lot in your relationship. And I think one of the things that I heard the loudest just now was, you know that thing about in stage two, it's like, we want to get to resolution. Like, the goal is like, okay, all right, let's talk about the dishes again. You know, our couple's therapist said that we should, like, sit down. And, you know, I've got the worksheet. Like, let's do this. Like, there's. There's kind of like a. I don't know, tediousness or just like a. There's a certain quality to that energy. And it's sort of like, I want to get to resolution around this. You want to get to resolution around this. Like, we. We don't really want this to happen anymore, etc. Whereas third stage relating is like, give it to me. Messy. Give it, give it. Give me all of it. Like, you know, be. Yeah, be a hippo or, like, be a jaguar. Like, just be a jack. Come. Come and get me. Come and get me for not doing the dishes. Right? Like, give it to me. You're bringing some creativity and some play, and it liberates something. You said that word, liberate, Jason. And I think that's a really wonderful word there because you're getting it through the system, right? You're actually like, I'm so mad. I'm so mad about this. Like, you can hear I sound like a child. And in most of our culture, we shame adults for sounding like children, but.

Jason Lange: I feel like kids sounding like children.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And. And this is almost bringing that back of like, show me like a child. Show me like an animal. Breath, sound, movement. I just want to slow that down. Breath, sound, movement. These are basic. This is not. How many big words can I use that I heard in a therapy office to explain this to you again? This is like, please, I need something, or I'm whatever. Like, you. You get it. But there's something really beautiful about what you said, Jason. Like, as a woman, as someone who longs to hold Omega in a relationship, when I imagine a man saying to me, like, bring it, bring it even more. Turn up the volume. I want all of it. I feel so loved. I feel so loved by that. That's like, to me, that's true. Love is I don't have to be small anymore. I don't have to contain myself. I don't have to be perfect. I can actually be me. And he likes that. He's not going to try to push. Push it away or shove it down or, you know, suppress it. And I'm curious, you know, you spoke a little bit to it, but many, many, many, many, many men do want to shove it down or push it away or suppress it, and they. And they tend to do that in relationship. Can you share a little bit about why? Because I feel like you. You touched on it briefly, but you said you can't be afraid of her. And I think a lot of men are actually afraid of her emotions. Can you speak a little bit about that? And I'm curious if you went on a journey yourself around that.

Jason Lange: Sure. I mean, I think the mistake. A lot of men, I mean, right. When we teach, when we were in our program, we talk a lot about Omega or the feminine. You can talk about it like the weather. Right. It's. It's that which is always moving and changing. As men, we like to dissect and categorize everything and, like, freeze it in time. So it's like, well, if this is true right now, it's going to be true forever. So if she's pissed about me at this, that means, oh, my God, our relationship is over. And particularly if you're a guy like me who kind of has, like a nice guy nervous system and you get afraid that, oh, my God, if she's upset with me, that means our relationship might end or something like that. So I don't want to feel that. Right? I don't want to feel that that fear. Part of the shift is realizing, oh, and we see this all the time. You know, once we welcome the energy of expression fully, it often resolves itself. I mean, this is the thing for, for guys is it's. You actually don't have to do nearly as much as you think. You just have to be present and receive, receive and be attuned and welcome the emotional expression. And then, you know, my wife's a badass. She generally knows how to handle whatever it is she needs to handle on the other side. Sometimes she just needs help moving through the emotional expression and having a place to put it. The container I can create with us is that place sometimes. The other thing I would say is for a lot of men being right, when we're with someone else truly in their emotions, we have to be willing to feel that in our nervous system, right? That's that there's like a level of the mirror neurons there. So if someone's feeling angry and I'm not comfortable with anger in my body or I've been fearful of it sometimes for good reasons in the past, I'm not going to want to be around that. So I'm going to want to shut it down or close it down or lawyer my way out. And, you know, like I used to do, try to explain why what she was feeling was wrong because my intent was actually this. And if you just understood, then you wouldn't feel that way and then I wouldn't have to feel something. Right. But the, the big shift, I think that a lot of men, paradoxically, the alpha partners, have to do is also do your omega work to get into your emot body, to become present to all the gunk and feelings and stuff stuck inside. And as I have done that through, you know, years of work and continue still doing that, it's. I'm much less afraid of it because it's like, oh, I. I felt that in my body and it wasn't the end of the world. So it's okay. So I'm going to be far more comfortable welcoming that in my partner. And so it's just becoming more comfortable with emotional energy and sometimes confrontational energy. Something else we're going to talk about sometimes just the feeling of, wow, you're there and I'm here, and there's no immediate answer right here. And sometimes the answer is to just be in that energy and stay connected. Right? Like, yeah, you're pissed about this, and I'm pissed about this. But so there's just, there's practice involved, right? As men, there's realizing that emotional storm's not going to be that way forever and you just have to be comfortable going in there. And a lot of men just have no experience, no interoception to be able to know their own emotional experience or name it. And not a lot of encouragement from our culture to be in that. You know, most men are rewarded for being out of our bodies. That, that, that is the patriarchy towards men. In a lot of ways, being disembodied is what you were rewarded, rewarded for financially, career wise, physically and achievement wise. Like, the less embodied you are, the harder you can push. Even if that degrades your body, the more rewarded you are. So we have a lot working against us, but it's totally possible to, to step in and become, become comfortable with emotions and not fear them and then not fear them in your partner and realize that actually the paradox here is the, the, the, the way to us getting closer and connecting is to fully be in the emotions, not to try to get rid of them.

Melanie Curtin: Right?

Jason Lange: It's go right towards them.

Melanie Curtin: That's a really good way of putting it. And it occurs to me that, you know, I had a contrast experience of, you know, having rage basically like anger come up with, with a, with a man with a partner, and he didn't really know what to do with it. Like, he was so standing there, like there wasn't a lot of, I wasn't getting a lot of back from him. It wasn't, it didn't feel supported. It was just kind of like he was just sort of there versus with another man. He went and like, got a pillow and was like, you know, whatever you need to do. Like, I'm here with you, I'm here, I'm with you. And I felt much more like, wow, he's really skilled. Like he has some skills and he has a sense of what this is. And he wasn't, he wasn't resistant to it. I think that's the truth, is exactly what you just said. The first man was resistant to it. It, he didn't really know what to do with it. He hadn't really touched that inside him, his own self. And so he was just kind of like, like, I don't really, I don't really know what to do here. So he was just kind of there. And that's very different from like, I got you, like, I'm going to get a pillow. Like, I'm right here and I Think that that's another thing that a couple of my friends have shared with me in third stage relationships where they'll do a practice called pushing, which is. Is conscious pushing. This isn't shoving your partner, but it would be, for example, like, she's upset. She's obviously got some. Some anger going. And he says, let's do some pushing. Like, you can push my shoulders, like. And. And they. These couples that I've talked to have said this is incredibly effective whether it's about them, right? Whether she's mad at him about something or she's mad at something in her life. Either way, they have found that to be really effective. And a couple minutes of pushing, right, with breath, sound and movement is super. Way faster, like, a lot more efficient. We keep talking about this being more efficient, but it's true. Versus, like two and a half hours of talking about it again. You know, like, I'm imagining a couple where he shows up at an event late, and she's pissed about it. And, you know, she knows she shouldn't be. This is my big trip up in relationship. I don't know if you can relate to this, Violet, but I'm like, there was traffic. It's not his fault. Or like his boss kept him late. You know, I shouldn't be mad. I shouldn't be mad about this, but I am mad about it. I feel dropped. I felt dropped. I had to come in by myself, whatever it was. And I'm just imagining the difference between, you know, that car ride home of. Of like, the awkward silence or like. Cause I. I'm definitely done this in relationship where I've said to myself, I shouldn't feel this way. So I'm trying to convince myself I don't feel that way. And then I'm just stilted and awkward, kind of quiet, withdrawn. Just like, we're kind of crunchy, right? And he can feel that there's something wr. He's not always sure what it is or what to do about it. And I'm imagining the difference between the car ride where they get out of the car and he's like, I can't wait to get. To get inside so you can give it to me. Whining. I want all of it. I want all of it. Bring all of it. Like, let's do this. Let's fucking rumble. Like, I got you. I'm here. I want it. Versus, like, tiptoeing around the kitchen, kind of like, oh, I don't know. You know, I'm not sure if it was the thing from earlier or something. It was something else. But I don't really want to deal with it. Like, I was hoping we could just have a peaceful night, you know, like how different those two experiences could be and how much actually erotic energy. Like you said, Jason, how much power there is in the give it to me whining. Because the give it to me whining part to me as a woman. What I hear in that is I've got you. What I hear in that is I've got you. I've got space for this. I'm here. And there's something sexy about that for me. And then consistently, I think that to your point, Jason and a lot of Alpha partners report, when she actually really does give it to me whining, it's hot. Like there's something erotic about it. So I would love to hear from both of you about that point. And then I have a question for you, Violet. Yeah. I mean, what I'm present to right now is just how much of this you can't really script out. That's why you just really have to practice it. I mean, there's times you can script it out if you're noodling off something. But your story made me remember that yesterday there was a little miscommunication about schedules. I thought that Jason was gonna be done with a call earlier than he was. I was feeling under resourced and tender. Cause I went to this mother circle and we were talking about the underworld and shadow and it, you know, just brought things up for me. And I noticed that what I was feeling inside was rage. And also I felt to myself, oh, I can't feel this way. It's his work. I shouldn't be mad. Like, his work is really important. I don't want, you know, like. Like I can't feel this. But the more I felt that, the more I just wanted to cry because I was self censoring and there was nowhere for the energy to go. And then I had this flash of awareness again because of practice where I was like, oh, this is a part of me that felt deprioritized when my sister was born or when I became not the only child anymore. And I felt like I had to just wait and wait and wait and wait to get the attention I needed. And would it ever come? And not just when my sister was born, but I. I've had, you know, experiences throughout my life of being like, oh, I'm trying my best and I'm still not getting what I'm needing. I'm still not Getting the love that I want or no one's paying attention to me, I guess. I guess I should just stop trying. And so I was able kind of when he came off the call, I had self regulated a little bit enough to be like, oh, man, I felt so deprioritized. I felt like really sad. I was really wanting this and I was feeling so tender. I like gave him all the context and the part about the part. So that was not stage three, that was stage two. But our daughter was in the room. I wasn't going to just like go up and pound his chest in front of her, although maybe it would have been fine. So kind of like real time, in the moment feeling, what am I feeling? How much of it is mine and his? Is this an inner child part? Can I be with that part in order to soothe myself in that moment and then still bring that to him later? And one of the cool things that happened is Jason was like, you know, I love you so much. You're my number one priority. And I was feeling so stressed on that call because I knew I was running a little bit late and I wanted to care for both you and, and my client. And I was like, oh, man. He was feeling stressed because he loves me so much. So I was able to feel his care in like a different way. And I don't remember exactly what he did, but he was just either put his hand on his heart, kind of clasped his shoulders or something, or moved his hand up and down his chest where he was almost doing stage three, like showing me like I was in pain because I was trying to juggle both of you. And where I'm going with that is it's just like sometimes the stage two, the stage three is messy. But I think male partners can also show it in their own way to female partners. And it just takes so much self awareness to be able to let it go and express it or to be able to keep it in. And because we have this foundation of him welcoming my expression, I felt like he deserves my awareness. He deserves my knowing about what parts are coming up. He deserves, like me to keep doing my work. Not just like, ah. Because I think sometimes women confuse stage three and stage one. They're like, I'm just gonna be a fucking bitch because that's what whiny is and that's what Messi is. And it's like, no, not necessarily. You know, you still want to give your partner the grace and the respect of like checking in with them, seeing where they are, versus just exploding on Them I'm not that I'm perfect at that, but. Well, I want to point out something else, Jason, that you did really well in that, which is you didn't resist her and you didn't try to convince her not to feel that way. Right? You weren't. You weren't sharing what you shared about, like, I was really stressed on that call. You weren't sharing that to convince her to not be upset. You were just also sharing your experience, which is different. It's different. The lawyer, like you said, which I have experienced in relationship and drives me fucking crazy, is like, let me tell you why you shouldn't feel this way. You shouldn't feel upset because I. Because I was stressed. That's not. That's not what you were doing. So I just wanted to slow that moment down and say, violet, you have. Or Jason, you have built up trust with Violet that she was able to bring that to you with all of her tenderness. And I think that's a really good example, Violet, of second stage, which can be really valuable. And when there are other people around or small children or something, we can't always do third stage. But you were still able to bring your heart. You still expressed your heart with your words in a second stage way. And that was received. You were received, Jason. You received that. Instead of resisting it, you received it. And then you shared your own experience, and there was a lot of heart connection. And I just want to slow that moment down because I think to what we were saying before. Sometimes, many, many women. Many women have had the experience in relationship of bringing their tenderness or bringing their, particularly these, quote, immature emotions, where it's like, I know I shouldn't be upset, but I am. Those that's particularly vulnerable, and we have experienced resistance and we have experienced someone trying to shut us down, and then that diminishes our willingness to do it again. Right? It's like, it makes it harder rather than like, I hear you. I'm. Yeah, I hear you. I was. You are my number one priority. I think that's the other thing that I wanted to. To shout out from that interaction is, you know, Violet shared like, I felt deprioritized. And, Jason, you were really reassuring. You were really reassuring. You weren't. You didn't. You weren't shaming, like, well, obviously, you're my priority. That's not how you said it. That was not the intention. It was. You are my number one priority. You are important to me. And I was stressed on that call, trying to juggle between these two you know, these two priorities, but you are my number one priority. There's something I've realized that reassurance is a form of love. Reassurance is a form of love and we need it in relationship. We need it from both sides. You can't just say once, you know, I always want to hear about your feelings. That shit has to come like 150 times before it actually gets through to a consciousness that was punished for showing their emotions when they were growing up. Right. It takes more than one or two or three times. Hundreds of. Takes hundreds of times. It takes years. So reassurance is a form of love. And I'm curious, you know, how that, how that particular exchange was for you on your side.

Jason Lange: Yeah, well, I think what's important to highlight from my side to, to her credit was she was actually feeling the feel when I came out. So it wasn't like there was this preloaded thing on her side either of da da da. And there was no you always or. Right. And there's been times this has been a challenge before, but it wasn't about that. It was just about what she was feeling in the moment. And so that made me much more open to. Oh, yeah, I can again, I can see. I, I feel this had an impact on you and it had an impact on me and your priority to me. And so I was able to receive it. And you know, we've been doing a lot of work, so I'm just able to receive more in general these days around that kind of stuff because.

Melanie Curtin: There.

Jason Lange: Was like, my schedule shifted and I, you know, I wasn't able to communicate it in the call. And so there was an agreement and then the agreement shifted. So I'm like, of course you'd be a little upset around that. That doesn't surprise me. And I, I don't need you to, to feel otherwise. But I think, yeah, the thing I want to point to there is that she had done enough work on herself to be able to see these parts and be able to communicate it. And that's super fun and advanced and can set the stage a lot of times for the stage three. Because the thing about stage three is you do need to have a very solid stage two foundation, a capacity to kind of process and make sure both partners are heard and slow down and create a lot of trust. And then you need to bring the emotional energy of kind of stage one, like just the, the bodily part in, you know, the. It's not, it's one of the closest things I can find around this because people always get a little confused. You know, when we start talking about stage three, we often guys get very curious on our calls for examples and stuff. And like. Like we said, we can't, you know, we can give you some ideas, but you can't script this stuff. It's like. It's mostly like improv acting. That's like the closest thing I can find in that. You know, if. If you've done any actual acting work, you know, actors aren't faking the emotion. They're eliciting a genuine emotion through, you know, a character, a structure or something like that. And that's kind of what stage three is. Sometimes there is, like, a little theatricality to it, but you have to have your stage two kind of responsible adult awareness on to be able to, like, channel it through that.

Melanie Curtin: That.

Jason Lange: And that's why something like the hippo is great, because it's like, give me the energy. And I also want that other part kind of online that. That's able to express it in a specific way. And it's. It's a very advanced practice in that sense that we all have to, like, you know, play with. And you're going to get it wrong sometimes, and it's not always going to work. The other thing I just wanted to mention circling back to the. The pushing thing, because this is something we go. I learned to do through our couples counselor early in our marriage. And it really does work and help. And I think this is so key for guys. I teach this to guys. Like, what's also great about that is then she can feel there's something to push into instead of just pushing you over. Like, if you can be a force that's like, I'm here to receive it, and I'm not just gonna evaporate if you push me. I think that also breeds a little bit of just trust and relaxation in partners. Of like, oh, there's. There's something here, right? There's.

Melanie Curtin: There's.

Jason Lange: There's a force here, There's a presence here. There's something grounded here in pushing is a very concrete way to feel that. I'm like, I'm right here. And actually, yeah, I do want more. Like, you can. You don't have to hold back. Like, you can really push me all the way. And that is just a quick way, particularly around anger, I think, sometimes to work really. And what's great about that one too, is then there's a eye contact easily. There's highly relational. It's. There's a lot happening in that. That Makes it very effective.

Melanie Curtin: And you can go in for a hug really quickly after your anger collapses into sadness. Yeah, yeah. I want to say something about that briefly, which is I just want to recognize and honor the number of clients that we have and the number of people listening who have experienced bullying and who have experienced domestic violence. And I'm not just talking about growing up domestic violence, but I'm talking about domestic violence by an intimate partner. So. So in this case, we're talking about men and women, so men who have had things thrown at them, men who have actually been pushed in anger or have had violence inflicted upon them in relationship. We see you and we include you. And I think that's a good example of why it is so important to get the right mentors and to have the right support. I can't tell you the number of clients that we've worked with around pretty severe bullying and really holding that with love and really working with that energy and working through that energy. Because what we don't want you to do is get re traumatized. We are not saying you have to be able to do this kind of thing right away. What we're saying is it's important to do the foundational work, which sometimes includes working through those energies and getting the healing and support that's necessary from other men. You know, you wouldn't believe how many men in our program, a lot of the healing, you know, comes from brotherhood. It comes from being with other men who are supportive, who do listen, who hear their story and are like, I'm sorry that happened to you, man. That's really hard. Rather than being shaming or retraumatizing them and rebuilding that trust with the masculine brings a lot of self esteem and power online to a man's body mind that then now he. Now he's available for this kind of third stage relating. So I just wanted to say that and, and, and this dovetails with a question I have for Violet, which is, you know, this is not carte blanche for a woman to just rage at a man. That's not what third stage relating is. And I'm gonna drop in the borderline personality episode in the show notes of this episode, but can you. Can you give a little example of what. What it would sound like a little bit for a sort of like, like out of control. This is not. This is not third stage relating. This is just her going off on him versus what it would sound like in third stage relating. I know that's a tough thing to ask, so you can take a minute but that might be helpful to actually hear the difference. Yeah. I think, for instance, there's times where I felt deeply hurt. And stage one, be like, get out. Get the out. Like, I hate you. You know, like, you did this and you always do that, and I love that. Like, it's really an attack. And, you know, I'm not proud to say that I've definitely had that interaction with Jason before. I haven't always been able to manage it skillfully. But a stage three would be like, I'm so hurt and I'm so pissed at you. And then beyond the words, showing that through my body, like the sobbing or the, you know, tantruming or the terror, like, I'm so scared, you know, shaking. Like, I think sometimes we go into the attack mode. Or really, stage one is very manipulative. So it's like you kind of are aware that you're doing these things that aren't really fair. You're not fighting fair, but you don't really want. You're not owning it. Whereas in, like, stage three, you're like, I know this isn't fair for me to do, but I'm just, ah, you know, like. Like, it's held. It's just held in a different way. Maybe Jason has a different, you know, he's lived the experience of me being not embodied and being more, you know, contemptuous and off the rails and throwing the grenade, as we call it, which I just want to say, in terms of parts work, that's your firefighter. Your firefighter is, like, desperate to save the system. So we all have those parts of us. There's no shame. If you're listening, you're like, oh, God, I've been in stage one. Sometimes, like, when we're under resourced, that's the easiest place to go to. That's where the energy flows. But, yeah, anyway, yeah, I mean, stage.

Jason Lange: One is like, I can't but help. Like, I can't stop myself from expressing this. Like, it's just the.

Melanie Curtin: The.

Jason Lange: The emotional energy or physical energy or it's reactivity. Right. It's just reactivity. Stage two is like, you know, when the more advanced part of our brain comes online is like, oh, can I slow that down? And that's not okay. I shouldn't actually pound, you know, pound them, whatever I need to verbally express it. Stage 3 is when, with consent, we intentionally express the physical or emotional energy. And that's a very important part that I think is different from stage one and stage three. Stage three, it might look wild and there Might be a lot of movement or energy, but there is some kind of consent there. Like, hey, are you open to me? You know, like, she came in the kitchen that one day, like, can I show you something? Something? Yes. So I'm consenting to. To receiving in that moment.

Melanie Curtin: And it's an offering.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's not offering. That's a great way to think of it too. It's not just coming at me. There's like a little kind of consent there, and then we can kind of. We create the container consciously, and then we express the energy. Not every time, but there's a lot more of that online in this.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great, great point. That was kind of what I did on the phone with. With my partner. I said, I'm noticing. I'm having a feeling, and I'm wondering, can I. Can I whine a little bit? Is it possible for me to whine? And I know that we're. We're winding up this episode, but I think that's an important takeaway at the end. Is there is. There is a lot of consent, even if it's just like, hey, can I show you something? Or do you mind if I whine a little bit? Is that cool with you? Even just that. That is really different from. Than just coming in with the attack.

Jason Lange: Yeah, you can. Can you talk about these kinds of things when it's not a charged moment? So, hey, as a couple, can we start practicing or playing with this? I'd listen to this episode. Do you want to listen to this? What are some ways we could start to play with that energy when you're upset with me, or I need something from you, or I'm feeling misunderstood. You might not have the exact thing, but there's an idea of like, oh, yeah, I'm open to trying that. Right. So then when the charged moment comes, it's not like you're like, hey, give it to me like a hippo. And she's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, you're not listening to me. Right? You want to kind of have a little shared reality and language around. We want to play more with honoring the energy, but also, yeah, liberating it, making it a little bit more playful. So our. Our relationship isn't just dry processing all the time. That's the fun thing about the. The. The liberated energy and why it's important for men to be rel. Regulated is right. If we don't have a sense of humor, it's because we're rigid and tight and closed. And if you're rigid and tight and closed. You can't stage three relate. Like you got to be. Be willing to make fun of yourself. You got to be willing to receive stuff like there has. It's why humor, I think, is so attractive often in alpha or ma or masculine partners. Because it's. It means I'm not gripped. It's right. I can can just let it go. And stage three really happens more in that space of like, okay, well, we're not going to deny or ignore this energy, so let's play with it. Let's actually bring it up and engage with it consciously. And then it often feels a lot more honored. And then. And you get horny faster. It's like there's winds all around.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great place to wrap. If you're interested in Violet's work, I will drop her information in the show notes. She does work with women, and if you're interested in working with us, you can always go to Evolutionary Men apply. I will also say that my co ed container, Radiant Love is starting in late February, and that is a place where you can practice both stage two and stage three related because each of the 14 weeks we do a different topic. And one might be clearing resentments, which I have a very stage two process for. And one might be erotic energy or emotional vulnerability. How to hold space for that, how to move it through your body. And you get to play with both alpha and omega with someone of the opposite sex so that you can really feel what it's like to practice these energies. And I'll just say you can join if you're single or in partnership, and if you join as a couple, you can do all of your breakout rooms as a couple. So you'll get instruction, but you'll get to practice as a couple. Cool. I didn't know that. That's great. And I'll also drop that in the show notes. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.