All right, I had a blast on Melanie's podcast talking about emotional expression with my wife Violet. We got into something that's been a game changer in our relationship, this idea of three stages of emotional processing. Stage one is pure reactivity, stage two is that more spacious, let's talk it through approach, and stage three, which we spent a lot of time on, is where you bring full embodied energy but with consent and awareness.
I talked about how I'm naturally better at stage two, the processing style, but stage three is where I've really had to practice. The big shift for me has been learning that I don't need to fix or end the emotional energy. It's not about getting back to peace as fast as possible. It's about welcoming the full expression, riding the wave all the way through. When Violet threw a tantrum on the kitchen floor about the dishes after our daughter was born, that woke me up. She wasn't attacking me, she was just showing me the pain in her body, and that changed something for me.
The embodiment piece is huge here. Emotions live in the body first, before we can even name them. A two year old can feel rage or devastation before they have words for it. So working with breath, sound, and movement, that's how you actually move emotional energy instead of just thinking about it. And honestly, when that energy starts moving through the body, it gets erotic fast. There's just more aliveness there.
For guys listening, the big practice is getting comfortable with your own emotional energy first. Most of us were rewarded our whole lives for being disembodied, for pushing through, for achieving at the expense of our bodies. So we have zero practice feeling our own stuff, which means we're terrified when our partners feel theirs. Do your own work. Get into your body. Feel your own gunk. Then you won't be so afraid when she brings hers.
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Melanie Curtin: Like chocolate is not going to help with this. Shopping is not going to help with this. Like maybe will help with this, but like, ugh, I just like want something. I don't even know what it is. Hey everyone, before we start this episode, I wanted to share a really special email that I received. I got this on the 1st of the year and it is from a longtime client and community member. Daniel, you know who you are, and I wanted to share this because I think it dovetails with the episode and it deeply touched my heart and I'm going to read it and I might get emotional. So we'll see. We'll see how this goes. It definitely made me cry the first time that I read it and it was, I think, a signpost or a guiding light for me in a moment when I needed to hear something like this. So thank you Daniel in advance and without further ado, here is the email Hi Melanie, There was something that came up to me internally in the past couple of weeks that I want that made me want to write this email. After listening to many of the episodes on your podcast, as well as the ones you were in that were apart from the Dear Men podcast, I feel like there's something I should say. First, I want to reiterate that we as men in the modern age have arrested emotional development because of the influence of patriarchal culture and pressure to fit the status quo of what's hip greatly appeal to our animal nature. We live in a culture that indirectly disincentivizes us men to see deeply one another, to deeply see one another, and so we become incredibly self absorbed. We men have failed a lot and women feel lonely, sad and terrified that a glorified culture of arrested emotional development is prevalent for many men. Women feel pressured to please men and not be a burden to them, and so somewhere along the way their full emotionality becomes stunted. That many men fail to hold the full emotionality of women is in some way linked to the patriarchal culture originating from long ago and still existing today, having affected men today as well as the men they were raised by. I have appreciated more deeply that not holding women's full emotionality and seeing them makes them deeply mad and resentful. In 2024, I am optimistic enough to believe that your contributions in this world will tackle this long standing habit of men not seeing women. I have learned through your episodes that though you have an incredible amount of empathy, work ethic, intelligence, attunement abilities and resilience, the fear of hurting a man's feelings and being shamed, embarrassed or attacked by men remains a powerful one for you. This Fear sucks the segment between 3,035 and 3,528 of the heart Cock Matrix episode from the Amory podcast got my attention in regards to why women, even those who have done tremendous growth work, don't speak up during sex, which is a deeply important act for them. Additionally, you and Violet discussed the fear of being too much whether it's too assertive with complicated, unpleasant emotions you hold or too straightforward with your sexual desires. Among other issues, this fear has made many women feel smaller in spite of their desire to receive validation or acceptance. That sense of repeated stifling has contributed to women's loneliness around men. Men not being interested in all of women's parts and refusing to welcome all of them can feel very sad. Millions and millions of men around the world have a gap in their feelings and don't want to feel their own grief or rage, and so they are reluctant to hold women such as yourself if they are in a turbulent state. Loving someone unconditionally involves accepting all of their parts and and not avoiding. For example, when a woman is in her feminine storm, feeling one's deepest feelings and holding and having one hold space for them is important for deep love to flourish. In 2024, all of these negative aspects will continue I know that I'm still a young man, but I feel like many of female adults, including those your age, desire being deeply held, even when they feel turbulent, just like children and teens do when they feel immensely stressed or conflicted. I acknowledge that I have male privilege. I do not have as deep a fear of speaking up about things that hurt me. Compared to many women having done this consciousness work, I feel us men should keep on improving on holding other people's storms and complex feelings. I wish for you to be deeply held, no matter your feminine storms or bouts of rage and grief. It can feel lonely at times to be surrounded by men who just don't understand or tolerate complex feelings, but you are contributing and making a difference in this world. 2024 will have many unconscious people navigating the world, even those who are in positions of power. Man children will continue to be praised, but it's people like you who help us grow authentically instead of just going through the normal physical maturation as adults. The four seasons of the year can be unpredictable in what they deliver, and there are natural disasters such as hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis, among others that can come out of nowhere. But it's up to us men to hold steady and still and embodied and act as the powerful structures that can withstand those disaster and any other volatility that can come at us emotionally while we are in community with others. I want you to know that you make many people proud and seen and that their lives have changed because of you. Your solutions to the country in regards to improving one's emotional lives are more effective than any solution that either candidate running for the 2024 presidential election in November will have or will have proposed. You matter so much, and we're here to be there with each other in community, even when deep trouble may come. I hope this email starts your 2024 on the right foot. Well, as expected, I did get emotional. And I want to say thank you to you, Daniel, and thank you to all of you listeners and all of you men out there who are. Who are growing and who are leaning into the work and who are becoming more conscious. You are inspirational to me. You are why I do what I do. And I have a lot of hope for the future because of men like you who are growing. And not just who are growing yourselves, but the. The children that you're raising. Right. The way that you're changing culture in your workplaces and everywhere that you go. Because what I see in my clients is that as they grow and expand, they touch everyone around them, and there's a ripple effect that cascades through their lives. So I just want to commend all of you for being here and growing, continuing the work, and I just want to praise you and honor you and say thank you. And that's. That's. Yeah. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode. I both Jason and Violet here with me today to do an episode on Give it to Me Whining. Give It To Me Whining. Really excited about this. So thanks for being here, both of you.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: Stoked to be here.
Jason Lange: It's a little impromptu having Violet, but it worked out perfectly.
Jason Lange: The more third stage embodied for sure is. It's more impactful. So it actually brings me more into feeling of, wow, okay, this is a. I need to pay attention. You know, she was also sharing an example of after we had our. Our child, you know, I guess mid to late Covid. I don't know, but we were about to go out for something and she basically brought me into the kitchen, was like, can I show you something? And she threw a little tantrum on the floor and kind of pointed to the dishes in the sink. And then I still wasn't getting it, and threw a tantrum and kind of literally said, you know, can you do the dishes while she was kind of tantruming? And I was like, okay, wow, this is causing a lot of pain in her nervous system. Like, okay. And, you know, it wasn't a perfect remedy, but things are much better there in. In that. That's definitely a conscious part of my processing when I walk into the kitchen now, okay, what's the status? When can I get to him? That kind of thing. And that.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: You know, that I didn't get mad at her for that. Right. Like, because it was like she was just showing me the pain in her body, and that was like, oh, okay. It wasn't even like, you never do the dishes, or it was just, this is causing me pain and discomfort. And obviously I don't want to cause her pain and discomfort. So that woke me up to something. I think that's a big thing. Stage three tends to wake us up as men. It wakes us up to something, and it's more effective. You know, I think that's a big part of it. The. From. From my side, the masculine side, I think. Not always great, but I've always had an orientation of, like, I want more. I want all. Like, you don't have to hold back. And I think our trajectory was initially, I was much better at evoking that around grief or sadness, and there was lots of that. Just we were working through a lot of stuff when. When we first met. And as we've gotten more resilient and trusting, it's moving into other kinds. Anger, frustration, resentments, longing. Longing. That's all coming online. And I feel much more welcoming of that. And I think the other. As part of that. I think a big difference between stage two and stage three, in my mind, particularly from the masculine side, is in stage two, it's about wanting it to end. So I want to release the tension and get us back to peace. Like, I want to release. I want to bring it to an end. So can we have this conversation and.
Melanie Curtin: Then be done and we solve this problem? It's like solving the problem because emotion is not acceptable or desired.
Jason Lange: Whereas stage three, like, when I'm really in that moment, it's. I just bring it all. Like, let's just ride this wave. Like, I. I don't need it to end, but just like, my only requirement is like, let's go all the way with it, you know, so that more and more and more of it. More and more and more of it. Welcoming.
Melanie Curtin: So hot.
Jason Lange: There's just much more of that energy where it's not about bringing it to an end. It's. I mean, it's about bringing it to completion in a sense. But the completion is the full expression. So it's not, I want it to end, it's like, oh, just like, let's go for full expression here. And that's definitely a difference that, you know, I'm getting better at. And a big part of it is work I've been doing on myself and being able to hold my own boundaries and feel calm in my own nervous system. And you know, I think for an alpha masculine partner to be able to do that, you have to not fear your partner's emotions or their nervous system. It's just, that's the thing that I think really I, I used to fall prey to you and it's not like I'm not ever going to again. But there's like a, ah, like I, man, if she's really pissed at me, like I don't want to feel that, but it's like, okay, like she's just got to feel her feels and I got to feel my feels. So let's go right into it. And that welcoming of, of all of it I think is the big difference. And then the embodiment piece, you know, I think the other thing to tie into all this is the embodiment. It, it honors the emotional energy in a different way that I think stage two doesn't like the processing. It's, it's so cognitive and it's so up here where oftentimes the woundings, the resentments, the hurts, the desires, they're happening at a more root emotional level. And developmentally the way we worked is right. We had emotions before, we have the ability to share them, to be cognizant of them. Right? So a 2 year old can be pissed or devastated before they can say I'm pissed or devast. The emotion is in the body and so the ways to like best be and express and be in that energy are. Well, what could a two year old do? Right? Which often involves more of the body, right? So it's the breath energy and what did you say? Sound.
Melanie Curtin: Breath, sound and movement.
Jason Lange: Breath, sound and movement. Right. Kid. Kids can do that. Sometimes that sound can be words, but a lot of times it can be other stuff. And when we bring it from there, it, it just, it works with the emotional energy so much more powerfully in, in my experience and allows for something to move through. And then because emotional energy is in the body, right? Emotions are sensations in the body. It's like where they start. It's also one of the fastest, fastest ways I find to eroticize a moment. The more there's body involved the more erotic energy there is kind of on tap. So when we play in that space or, you know, even the place of, like, give it to me whining and, like, whine like, you're 10 years old. Right. Or who's the. The Charlie and the Chocolate Factory girl?
Melanie Curtin: I am. Veruca Salt.
Jason Lange: Veruca Salt. Or, you know, she's got that really whiny energy. Like, you can just. You can feel that archetype of, like, what it would mean to just. Yeah, just bring me that, like, give it to me like, Veruca Salt. Right. Like, give it to me whiny.
Melanie Curtin: Or as Jason said once, give it to me like a hippo. He had me do a hippo dance when I was complaining about something, and it made us both crack up.
Jason Lange: Yeah. It wasn't to get rid of the energy. It was to. To liberate it even more. Like, how can you express that? And so, again, as. As the alpha or masculine partner. Right. What you're doing is through your direction, you're inviting expression. So hippo is just a lens. It could have been anything. Right. It could be. It's just a lens for the expression that sometimes gives it a little form so then she could fully pull. Pour her feelings into it.
Melanie Curtin: I want to just add one other thing too, which is that he just said the word direction, and it totally sparks something in me. Because what I find is when we're in stage two, there's a lot of mirroring happening. Like, oh, I'm sad about this thing. Well, I'm sad about this thing. Well, I'm sad about that thing. And it's like, then I don't feel like I'm getting the attention in quotations that I want or the. The awareness that I want. We're just kind of both in victim mode. But when he's bringing direction, like, oh, okay, show me what that looks like. Or, give it to me like a hippo. Or, where's your pouty ness? Or, wow, that's hot. That's sexy. Give me more. That gave me a heart on. He says that too. Sometimes my emotions give him a heart on. And, like, he wants more of my emotions. Then there is, like, directionality. He's directing me. I'm opening up. Then I feel more resource, and I have more capacity to hold space for him when he needs to go there. Like, there's an actual flow versus everything getting damped down. Yeah. And I feel like I need to share, like, my own longing because this. This is part of why we're doing this episode is. There are so many Omega partners that. That really want this. Like, we are longing for this from our partners. Like, we're like, I want to be expressed. I want you to want my expression. I want you to be able to hold my expression. I want you to encourage my expression. And there's. And I'm working so hard, like, a lot of us are working so hard to contain ourselves or to say it perfectly or to be. To have it together and to have a partner say, like, I want it messy. Give it to me messy. Give me all of. Of it. Like, that's such a gift. Like, that's part of why I wanted to do this episode was to kind of let all of you in that are listening, that are men, on how much longing, like, how much you can provide to an Omega partner if you can. If you can. If you can get this and if you can lead her a year and if you can direct her in these moments. Because, again, like, there is a given a take, right? You're not going to be able to direct a woman who's completely closed. Of course. Like, we. We're not saying that, but you can direct women who are. Who are more open. And this can open up a lot in your relationship. And I think one of the things that I heard the loudest just now was, you know that thing about in stage two, it's like, we want to get to resolution. Like, the goal is like, okay, all right, let's talk about the dishes again. You know, our couple's therapist said that we should, like, sit down. And, you know, I've got the worksheet. Like, let's do this. Like, there's. There's kind of like a. I don't know, tediousness or just like a. There's a certain quality to that energy. And it's sort of like, I want to get to resolution around this. You want to get to resolution around this. Like, we. We don't really want this to happen anymore, etc. Whereas third stage relating is like, give it to me. Messy. Give it, give it. Give me all of it. Like, you know, be. Yeah, be a hippo or, like, be a jaguar. Like, just be a jack. Come. Come and get me. Come and get me for not doing the dishes. Right? Like, give it to me. You're bringing some creativity and some play, and it liberates something. You said that word, liberate, Jason. And I think that's a really wonderful word there because you're getting it through the system, right? You're actually like, I'm so mad. I'm so mad about this. Like, you can hear I sound like a child. And in most of our culture, we shame adults for sounding like children, but.
Jason Lange: I feel like kids sounding like children.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And. And this is almost bringing that back of like, show me like a child. Show me like an animal. Breath, sound, movement. I just want to slow that down. Breath, sound, movement. These are basic. This is not. How many big words can I use that I heard in a therapy office to explain this to you again? This is like, please, I need something, or I'm whatever. Like, you. You get it. But there's something really beautiful about what you said, Jason. Like, as a woman, as someone who longs to hold Omega in a relationship, when I imagine a man saying to me, like, bring it, bring it even more. Turn up the volume. I want all of it. I feel so loved. I feel so loved by that. That's like, to me, that's true. Love is I don't have to be small anymore. I don't have to contain myself. I don't have to be perfect. I can actually be me. And he likes that. He's not going to try to push. Push it away or shove it down or, you know, suppress it. And I'm curious, you know, you spoke a little bit to it, but many, many, many, many, many men do want to shove it down or push it away or suppress it, and they. And they tend to do that in relationship. Can you share a little bit about why? Because I feel like you. You touched on it briefly, but you said you can't be afraid of her. And I think a lot of men are actually afraid of her emotions. Can you speak a little bit about that? And I'm curious if you went on a journey yourself around that.
Jason Lange: Yeah, well, I think what's important to highlight from my side to, to her credit was she was actually feeling the feel when I came out. So it wasn't like there was this preloaded thing on her side either of da da da. And there was no you always or. Right. And there's been times this has been a challenge before, but it wasn't about that. It was just about what she was feeling in the moment. And so that made me much more open to. Oh, yeah, I can again, I can see. I, I feel this had an impact on you and it had an impact on me and your priority to me. And so I was able to receive it. And you know, we've been doing a lot of work, so I'm just able to receive more in general these days around that kind of stuff because.
Melanie Curtin: There.
Jason Lange: Was like, my schedule shifted and I, you know, I wasn't able to communicate it in the call. And so there was an agreement and then the agreement shifted. So I'm like, of course you'd be a little upset around that. That doesn't surprise me. And I, I don't need you to, to feel otherwise. But I think, yeah, the thing I want to point to there is that she had done enough work on herself to be able to see these parts and be able to communicate it. And that's super fun and advanced and can set the stage a lot of times for the stage three. Because the thing about stage three is you do need to have a very solid stage two foundation, a capacity to kind of process and make sure both partners are heard and slow down and create a lot of trust. And then you need to bring the emotional energy of kind of stage one, like just the, the bodily part in, you know, the. It's not, it's one of the closest things I can find around this because people always get a little confused. You know, when we start talking about stage three, we often guys get very curious on our calls for examples and stuff. And like. Like we said, we can't, you know, we can give you some ideas, but you can't script this stuff. It's like. It's mostly like improv acting. That's like the closest thing I can find in that. You know, if. If you've done any actual acting work, you know, actors aren't faking the emotion. They're eliciting a genuine emotion through, you know, a character, a structure or something like that. And that's kind of what stage three is. Sometimes there is, like, a little theatricality to it, but you have to have your stage two kind of responsible adult awareness on to be able to, like, channel it through that.
Melanie Curtin: That.
Jason Lange: And that's why something like the hippo is great, because it's like, give me the energy. And I also want that other part kind of online that. That's able to express it in a specific way. And it's. It's a very advanced practice in that sense that we all have to, like, you know, play with. And you're going to get it wrong sometimes, and it's not always going to work. The other thing I just wanted to mention circling back to the. The pushing thing, because this is something we go. I learned to do through our couples counselor early in our marriage. And it really does work and help. And I think this is so key for guys. I teach this to guys. Like, what's also great about that is then she can feel there's something to push into instead of just pushing you over. Like, if you can be a force that's like, I'm here to receive it, and I'm not just gonna evaporate if you push me. I think that also breeds a little bit of just trust and relaxation in partners. Of like, oh, there's. There's something here, right? There's.
Melanie Curtin: There's.
Jason Lange: There's a force here, There's a presence here. There's something grounded here in pushing is a very concrete way to feel that. I'm like, I'm right here. And actually, yeah, I do want more. Like, you can. You don't have to hold back. Like, you can really push me all the way. And that is just a quick way, particularly around anger, I think, sometimes to work really. And what's great about that one too, is then there's a eye contact easily. There's highly relational. It's. There's a lot happening in that. That Makes it very effective.
Jason Lange: One is like, I can't but help. Like, I can't stop myself from expressing this. Like, it's just the.
Melanie Curtin: The.
Jason Lange: The emotional energy or physical energy or it's reactivity. Right. It's just reactivity. Stage two is like, you know, when the more advanced part of our brain comes online is like, oh, can I slow that down? And that's not okay. I shouldn't actually pound, you know, pound them, whatever I need to verbally express it. Stage 3 is when, with consent, we intentionally express the physical or emotional energy. And that's a very important part that I think is different from stage one and stage three. Stage three, it might look wild and there Might be a lot of movement or energy, but there is some kind of consent there. Like, hey, are you open to me? You know, like, she came in the kitchen that one day, like, can I show you something? Something? Yes. So I'm consenting to. To receiving in that moment.
Melanie Curtin: And it's an offering.
Jason Lange: Yeah, it's not offering. That's a great way to think of it too. It's not just coming at me. There's like a little kind of consent there, and then we can kind of. We create the container consciously, and then we express the energy. Not every time, but there's a lot more of that online in this.
Melanie Curtin: That's a great place to wrap. If you're interested in Violet's work, I will drop her information in the show notes. She does work with women, and if you're interested in working with us, you can always go to Evolutionary Men apply. I will also say that my co ed container, Radiant Love is starting in late February, and that is a place where you can practice both stage two and stage three related because each of the 14 weeks we do a different topic. And one might be clearing resentments, which I have a very stage two process for. And one might be erotic energy or emotional vulnerability. How to hold space for that, how to move it through your body. And you get to play with both alpha and omega with someone of the opposite sex so that you can really feel what it's like to practice these energies. And I'll just say you can join if you're single or in partnership, and if you join as a couple, you can do all of your breakout rooms as a couple. So you'll get instruction, but you'll get to practice as a couple. Cool. I didn't know that. That's great. And I'll also drop that in the show notes. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.
