286: How do I “do” dating apps well? (so I don’t get discouraged) | Dear Men

Jason Lange: It's quite empowering in a sense because it's like, wow, the bar is really low. Just like, I mean, in a big part of that was photos, right? Like blurry photo, drinking a beer. Like just bad lighting is like, oh. Like these guys aren't really putting any work into this. So going out and getting quality photos, it communicates a certain seriousness and intention.

Melanie Curtin: Hey guys. So this episode is about online dating and I thought I would start out with a very recent celebration from one of our graduates. This is someone who was married in the past and was really looking for the right fit for a while in dating and not really finding what he was looking for. And then he had some success and I would like to share that with you. So about four weeks ago, I met a woman on Tinder. This last weekend I drove up to see her and we spent the weekend together. It was one of the most charging and healing experiences of my life. Before I drove up to meet her, we had covered a lot of topics in conversation in great depth and breadth. I led with vulnerability in conversation and was blown away by the way she responded to me. She kept saying things like who the fuck are you? Are you for real? We shared lots of laughs and even tears together before we ever met in person. She was also upfront with me about where she would be on her cycle when I got up there, letting me know she'd have lower energy and just want to be chill and taken care of. I thought it was super sexy because it showed me she had a lot of self awareness and knew what she wanted. Me being me went to work planning. I ended up sending flowers to her work the day prior to me getting there and told her I would be taking care of all meals. Historically, she has been living in her masculine the majority of her life and has never had a man who led, served and cared for her the way I did. She melted. She was saying the most amazing things to me. I've never had a woman open up the way she did. Mel, I bought your course on sex and listened to the module on going slow which ended up coming in handy. We didn't end up having sex was totally fine. I told her I want to take it slow, but she was literally rubbing and grabbing my all weekend. So much good news here that I want to share, but there's just not the words or time to describe how giddy I am about it. Learning to be present, slow down and communicate and act from center has been life changing. Leading conversations out of vulnerability is a real thing with the right woman. It's so cool to actually see the manifestation of the things you teach show up in my life. For a long time, I really thought stuff like, oh, that sounds and feels cool, but I wonder if it'll ever happen for me. So grateful it finally has. And I wanted to drop that here in this episode in particular, because I think that it helps to remember that it can work. It can work. And we're gonna talk about a lot of tips and a lot of advice around it. And when you do the work and when you show up and you keep doing the work and you keep showing up, a lot of times you experience success. And I just wanted to start start the episode out with a bang. And you can always remember that if you have any questions or comments, you can get me@dearman podcastmail.com and I will catch you next time. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode. We are gonna do a dating episode today. We haven't done one of those in a while. And this is a very popular topic in our community because we have lots of men who are either back in the dating market. So they're either in the dating market, you know, just in the dating market, or they've been married and now they're either divorced or separated, and they're back in the dating market and it's been a while and they're wondering how to, quote, do the apps well. We also get a lot of clients who have been trying on the apps for a long time and it hasn't been working. So we're going to talk about all of that and more. And we have five specific tips or around this and how to do the apps well so that you don't get super discouraged, which is something that we've seen a lot. So, yeah, welcome to this episode. Thanks for being here, Jason.

Jason Lange: Yeah, stoked to be back. Great topic.

Melanie Curtin: So, yeah, first of all, I guess I just wanted to validate men's experience on the apps. And when I say men and women for this episode, I'm talking about hetero men and women who are on apps linking with each other. So straight men and straight women or men who have sex with women and women have sex with men. And as a woman who has sex with men and has been on the apps, my experience has been drastically and vastly different than the men that we work with and many of my male friends. So, yeah, just to. To validate that, I looked up a little bit of research, and according to Y Combinator, most men get somewhere between 0 to 4 matches per week. 0 to 4 matches. Per week. And most women get somewhere like 100 to 1000. That is a 25x difference. And sometimes it's over 100x. That is only one specific study. But one of the reasons for this is that women tend to swipe right much more judiciously. So they swipe right a lot less than men. According to a 2021 study, women only swiped right about 5% of the time and men swiped right about 53% of the time. So there's a variety of reasons. And then some research also says that in general, more hetero men are on the hetero apps than women. So there are just. There are more men on there, women are swiping right less frequently, and there's a few more things involved. But I'll just pause there. So I just want to say that many of the men that I know, many of the men that I know that are on the apps find it to be pretty discouraging a lot of the time because they're not getting that many matches and they are confused about why. And it can feel really discouraging. And I think the other, I think, experience to just validate is that there's a lot of ghosting that goes on on the apps. Right. It's not always a super connected experience. Somebody's there for three days, you're having a great text conversation back and forth, and then they're just gone. And sometimes they'll resurface six days later and you don't know what happened. And I think that's. That can be a really stressful experience, especially if you feel like you're vibing. So I just want to validate that in general, it's. Online dating can be really challenging to, to your heart, basically. Right? Keeping the faith, keeping your heart open, continuing, you know, not getting bitter and resentful and angry, which we'll. We'll touch on. But I just wanted to kind of validate that right off the bat that straight women and straight men are having different experiences on. On the apps. And if you are interested in going into detail in that more. I did a girl talk and a guy talk episode about online dating and I will drop those in the show notes of this episode. But I think it is worth listening to the girl talk. Well, really both of them, I think the guy talk will be validating and then the girl talk might be a bit enlightening about what happens, you know, on our side, like what our challenges are around it, because there are a lot of challenges on both sides. Anything to add around that sort of validation piece.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it just, it, it is hard. It is hard for men. And we've seen men who've had. Definitely had great success on there and we've had other men who are doing everything right and just, it becomes a source of stress and sometimes exhaustion. And so I guess I would also just add that even with all the tips we're going to put in today, it's, it's okay to take a break sometimes and you don't always have to be on there. But as our culture in a lot of ways continues to get fractured, you know, the, the other piece of research is, you know, it is more and more people are actually meeting each other through online apps. So that was not always the case, even though there was a lot of usage. But the, the numbers are like more relationships actually are starting from the apps. So there is a general trend to. Yeah, this is kind of becoming more commonplace for a lot of people. And so we just want to help you guys make it work the best you can for you.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think this one is a great one for a couple different reasons, one of which is it also just shows some intentionality. So it actually communicates something that like, oh, I'm, you know, just like I'm conscious of what I'm gonna wear clothing wise on my first day, conscious of what I'm putting out there. There's a level of consciousness attached to it, right. And I've certainly heard from plenty of women and I, I remember in the, you know, mid 2010s experiment me and my old roommate did where you could switch on, on Tinder, you could actually see guys, there was like a button that you could flip. And I remember one afternoon we just like we had it up on our TV and we were like flipping through and it was like, oh my God. It was this quite empowering in a sense because it's like, wow, the bar is really low. Just like, I mean in a big part of that was photos, right? Like blurry photo, drinking a beer, like just bad lighting is like, oh, like these guys aren't really putting any work into this. So going out and getting quality photos, it communicates a certain seriousness and intention to, to what you're doing. And then, yeah, I think the big piece that it comes with is that I've certainly seen of men is like, it can confer a certain amount of dignity of just like, wow, I like how I look in my photos. That's actually a really big deal and that transmits, you know, through in some sense. And it takes the other piece with doing that is the willingness to invest in yourself. To me is it's like a type of self love. Like oh, it's. I'm worth it to get good photos of myself for this because I want to look good and I do look good. So I want to get, you know, a professional eye to help me. And that all adds up. And you know, a good, particularly a good portrait photographer or something, they can direct you and help get the best, the warm, you know, your warm, authentic self evoked from you without you having to wonder how to do it. Which can be a big source of stress for guys. Like how do I get a good photo? So I think if you get some professional photos that can really help. And then even with the non professional ones, if you are just intentional in terms of thinking about what photos you pick, it communicates a lot about you. So I know I'm certainly a fan of also guys including photos that paint a little picture of their social sphere. Like you know, guys hanging out with friends or family. Like it creates a little bit a deeper sense of, of who you are. You know, it doesn't have to be like a, you know, professionally staged stock type photo, but just yeah, you know, like you and a couple buddies or something like that. That, that there alone also communicates a lot about your life and who you are.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Or photos outside in nature. I read something funny once that said men with dogs in their photos get more swipes, get more swipe swiped on right. More. Not saying you should borrow your friend's dog or anything, but just I think it's because it sort of conveys care that there's something. It feels like the man, I can feel his heart. There's something about caring for an animal that makes me feel like maybe you would care for me. But anyways, yes, photos are important and dignity is the word that I heard the most loudly there. I think there's something really true about. Yeah, dignity, conveying dignity, feeling dignity and investing. Being willing to invest in yourself in all kinds of ways. The second tip that we have is so we live in a very individualistic society here in North America, most of the West. And I think that the dating apps kind of what is the word? Emphasize that. So it's really easy on a dating app to just share facts about yourself. And what I find is that what is more inviting to me is a man inviting me into his vision for us. So I'LL give you a quick example, and we. I guess this is probably a good place to talk about which apps you're on as well. I personally am not a big fan of Hinge or Bumble or Tinder, which I call kind of like the short Swipe apps, meaning you don't have that much information. You got short answers. Not a lot of. Yeah, there's just not a lot of detail. There's not a lot of meat on the bone to kind of get into and get to know someone before. Before you have to interact with them. But. And. And on Hinge, I believe you can choose which questions you. You answer. So, for example, I'll give you an example. Three things you might not know about me, or three, you know, two truths and a lie. That kind of thing. That's fun. There's something fun about that. I'm. I'm getting to know you as a person, but an ideal date with you would look like. Is a better question in terms of inviting me into a vision. So if you put an ideal date is we go on a hike in the morning, and then we hit up a farmer's market in the afternoon, and then we have a picnic at a park. I have a sense of what it would feel like to be with you, what you value, what you find interesting. An ideal date with me would be we share a bottle of wine, watch TED Talk, talk about it, and then play Scrabble. Or an ideal evening out for me would be we go to. We go get tacos and then we play bumper cars or, you know, whatever. You get the idea. It. It's about you and what you enjoy doing, but it's also about inviting her into it. It's about actually painting a picture. There's something very inviting about that element of creating a vision rather than just listing facts about yourself. Any. Any comments on that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, this goes into a lot of what we work with men around. Around inviting women into a plan or a vision. Right. And what's great about that is just even in terms of polarity, if you imagine if you've put out an ideal date or something, the experience a woman gets to have is, oh, that feels good. Like, oh, I could imagine myself doing that. That sounds fun. Like, my body's a yes to that versus like. Like, yes to the experience in a sense. And not. Because the trick with, like, putting facts about yourself is, like, no one can actually be a yes to you just based off the apps. They don't actually know you. Right. The whole point is you got to Spend time with someone to get to know them. So when you, when you lead with an experience like that, it's like, oh, yeah, I can be a yes to that experience. And then through that experience, I'm going to get to know this person. Because, you know, if we're just basing it off what people share about themselves, like the facts, like you said, it does get a little more job resume, like, and it's really easy to cross someone off the list because, oh, I said I wanted a guy who never had a dog, and this guy's clearly got a dog. And, you know, you can, you can get a little crazy with that pretty fast. So I love the idea of a vision because it's. Yeah, it's a sense of direction and it's a future possibility. Right. Which in itself is a type of polarity. And you know, as one of my teachers once said, it's like a part of a type of seduction of like, hey, here's a vision that I'd like to invite you into. Right. And it's like, oh, yeah, I could imagine that. What would that be like to go hiking with him or go play Scrabble, da da da. So I, I'm a big fan of that one. And it means you also have to do a little work to have a woman doing, you know, to have something to invite her into. Which again, just shows a little consciousness that you're thinking ahead and that there's some awareness there.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. I was going to say, I think it's inherently polarizing when you have a vision or a concept or an idea. It doesn't even need to be elaborate. When you have something that I feel like I can step into. You are holding alpha in. In polarity work, we talk about alpha and omega as the two poles. Alpha is more associated with masculine, feminine's more associated with Omega. You're holding the alpha pole when you're like, here's, you know, like, I'll give you another example. It's maybe good for the holiday season. Is an ideal date would be I make us two thermoses of hot cocoa and we go on one of those holiday lights walks where, you know, one of those neighborhoods where they have them really done up. And then we kiss under. What is it, Holly? I'm sorry, I'm blanking on the tree.

Jason Lange: Mistletoe.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think how, how I sometimes see this showing up for guys that's related to this is you don't have to self limit. So we, we do tend to work with a lot of nice guys and they will often carry this story that, oh, I'm, I'm not available to get married or something right now, so I shouldn't date because there's no chance there's a woman out there who might just want to have an intimate connection or might just want to have it twice a month we go on a date and I Don't need anything more from you. Right. There's the story that no. Women only want committed relationships all the time. And so sometimes we'll catch men kind of self limiting. And this vision piece you're talk about is, yeah, it's okay to be honest about what you're available for. Right. What you're, that's, that's what our client did. He was clear about what he was available for. And yeah, not every woman is going to be aligned with that and that's okay. So those women won't respond, but the ones that do are going to be even clearer about what he is available for and be okay with it. And everybody is navigating, you know, different phases of life. And so for a man, whether it's post divorce or post relationship or he's having a hard time with his career or something, we can make up the story that, well, I can't get on the apps and I can't date until that's all fixed or I'm out of this phase. But you got to remember, women go through these phases too and all. There's absolutely a good chance that there's someone else out there who might be aligned with you in that moment, in that for it to be a successful relationship, it doesn't have to last forever. It doesn't have to be a full time committed, monogamous thing. There's whatever you two feel ready to create. And the clearer you are about that and the more you can communicate that in, in, in your profile, I think the better it's going to go. And there are absolutely. Some of these apps I think are more conducive to that because they, they're less, you know, the more space you kind of have to interact or communicate about yourself, the more depth that can be attached there. And the thing about the kind of tinders, you know, those are designed to have as little friction as possible and to be as surface oriented as possible. So like there's no friction, right? Just swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. You can do, you know, hundreds in 10 minutes I think sometimes. And that has a cost. So I think some of the apps that actually have a little bit more friction to them takes a little more time to put in your profile and set things up. I think that also leads to people who are more serious about actually interacting or maybe going on dates and stuff after the, after getting connected.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I. So one of the things we talk about with our men is which apps you're on and sometimes switching it up or trying, trying different things. So I'm going to mention I generally recommend OkCupid as a good app specifically because it tends to attract a more conscious audience. So there are more people interested in topics around consciousness, which is a lot of who we attract as clients. And there's a lot more meat on the bone in terms of the profile. So you can add a lot more about all the things we're talking about, vision and things about yourself. But more than just that as well, there's just, there's more space, there's more room, you have more to work with. You get to know people more through their profiles. And OkCupid has certain questions that you can answer. So you get a sense of someone's values or even there's, you know, there's funny ones too. But what are some examples? You know, how do you feel about, how do you feel about the death penalty? There's, there's ones about political ideas and ideals, but there's also things about, you know, have you ever lied to protect a friend? For example? And then you can write in an answer. There's like, yes, no, I'm not sure. And then there's like, write in. So you can, you can what, what the algorithm does is it matches your questions. If you, if you go on OkCupid and you see you're 88% compatible with someone, it actually means something. Because if you've filled out enough of these questions and they have also filled out a bunch of questions, the app is telling you, here's where you've overlapped and I'm not doing a good example. Good. So I'm not doing a good job of giving you the examples of the questions. But they, there are enough of them so that if you answer, let's say 50 of them and it doesn't take very long, it's pretty easy and kind of entertaining, then you have an actually better idea of a fit with someone. Right. If you see 73% versus 92%, it actually means something. So there's just more to work with through that app. So I like OkCupid. I'm not a big fan of the short swipe apps, but I understand there's a huge volume of people there, so there is a trade off. There tends to be a lower volume of people on an app like OkCupid, especially depending on where you are geographically. And OkCupid is also an app that tends to have a lot of folks in the ethical non monogamy community, also known as the poly community. So if you see em on A profile that means ethically non monogamous. And so and you don't have to be into ethical non monogamy to be on OkCupid. I'm just letting you know in certain geographical areas, for example, the Bay Area, that tends to attract a lot of folks like that. There's another app called Meet Mindful, which again has a lot less volume. There are fewer people on that app, but a lot of the people on that app are consciousness minded because you won't know about that app unless you know about it. So I just wanted to touch on that briefly and you know, have you switch it up and try different things and yeah, just be aware that there, there, there is more than just the, the short swipe apps to work with. Any comments on that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, just one last thing to maybe wrap it up with, you know, a theme coming through obviously is that the more consciousness and attention you bring to your profile, the better it's going to go. In a sense, you don't want it to just be a second afterthought. I dump some stuff in there and I hope I get a match. So in a way, the app you're choosing to spend time in is part of that because the apps have different cultures and communities around them. So, you know, who uses Tinder is going to be different than someone who takes the time to fill out an okcup Cupid profile or who takes the time and finance to actually pay for certain services that have even more friction. Right. Dating matchup services or you know, the kind of older school things like eharmony where there's, you know, different pieces in there that oftentimes the people who are using those apps have different intentions. Right. They're like, I want a relationship, I don't just want to date right now. So bringing consciousness to which app you're going to use that that's included in your vision. I would say so taking a little time to familiarize instead of just, oh, well, that's the most popular one. So I'm just going to use that one because I'm going to get the most matches. But if you're getting matches that aren't a fit, you've wasted your time. Right. If, if your person isn't the kind of person who's going to be on there. So it's good to kind of do a little bit of the work and yeah. Experiment which apps are really going to work the best for you.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And moving on to tip number three. So let's say you've gotten your photos, you have described Your vision, you feel good about your profile. Maybe you've even run it by a woman friend or two just to see, does this feel like a match for me? Does it feel like I'm represented here? You know, does this feel like me? Would you swipe, you know, what, what catches your attention? What do you find kind of off putting or dull or whatever? Like, you know, get some feedback from your target audience. That's always a good idea. And then when you're actually interacting so you're on the, on the apps, you're swiping, you're matching lead. And when I say lead, part of what I mean is a tip that we are going to suggest is get on FaceTime fast. So yes, dates are important and meeting up in person is important and it is lovely to me when a man asks me out soon after matching. Right. Like, I don't need to go back and forth with you for five days. You know, I think there's a myth out there that men are like, I don't want to. Or a lot of the nice guys that we've worked with are like, I don't want to make her feel objectified or I don't want to, you know, have her feel uncomfortable. So I'm going to like ease into it. I'm going to ask all these questions and have a whole conversation. To me, I feel much more like, yes, some conversation, great. But then let's, let's get on the phone, let's get on FaceTime, let's go on a date, let's do something to see if there's more here rather than spending three weeks messaging back and forth. So FaceTime, I think, or just zoom, whatever you want to do. But like, hey, do you have 10 minutes to FaceTime this evening or tomorrow? 10 minutes is a really reasonable amount of time. A lot of times if you're just saying, hey, do you want to get on FaceTime tonight? Or hey, do you want to get on FaceTime tomorrow? There's like, oh, like how long is it going to be? You know, what is that going to mean? You know, I've got to pick up the kids at 6. Like there's, there can be a lot of static versus giving. The time constraint of like 10 minutes makes it feel a lot more doable for a lot of people. Especially if you're like, you know what, you can be in the car. Like, this is really low key. You don't have to, you know, I just want to connect a little bit. How does that sound? There's something really nice about getting to video chat quickly because both of you can get the experience of does this person look like their profile photo? What does their voice sound like? Right. Those are both really big deals. And I think it's a lot more efficient, right? It's a lot more cost effective. There's just a lot of power in getting to FaceTime fast. So that's one of the tips that we have anything to add around that. This is a pretty simple and straightforward one, but you'd be surprised how much more just efficient it can be rather than. Particularly in the season we're in, we're dropping this episode as. Just as winter is. Is starting is right around the corner. When it's cold out, you're gonna. You're adding even more difficulty to the process of getting together, right? There's. It's just. It's a whole thing, right? When we're. When we're cold, we want to be cozy inside. And there's a lot of resistance to going out. It's a bigger ask. Getting together in person ends up being a bigger ask versus, like, hey, let's just FaceTime, see how. See how that goes, and then we can go on a date. Thoughts?

Jason Lange: I think it's an awesome practice. It's directional, it's leadership oriented, right. It's moving the connection forward. I think it's really important in the sense, you know, some of the culture around this changed in Covid and that, you know, I think even some of the apps include the ability to do video chat right through the app now. So you don't necessarily have to give away your phone number. There's. There's, like, ways, more ways than ever to do it safely. And you can learn so much about a person in that short time period, particularly when you do put a little container, like a time around it of like, hey, 10 minutes. The great thing about that is you both have an out at 10 minutes, right? So you're kind of creating a nice gentle out. And if it's going well, you can always re up, right? Oh, like, hey, this is going great. Do you want to talk a few more minutes more? Yeah. Great. You can add to that, but in case it's not a fit, you have a way out. And they have a way out too. You know, honestly. And the thing about this is you're just going to get so much more information about the person, how they feel, right? How their actual energy is than you can really get from a profile. And you know what the other thing about this is? The moving it forward as our friend Dr. Glover likes to say, you know, one of the goals is you want to get to rejection quickly. And what he really means by that is you want to find out when you're not a match sooner than later. And I definitely know men in, in women who have, you know, it's like the chatting just keeps going and going and going, and either one of them gets impatient or you finally meet up and then it's not a fit and you're like, wow, I just spent like a month kind of chat investing with this person and turns out it didn't really work. Whereas, you know, some FaceTime you might have known very fast. So I think this is a way to just kind of keep things moving forward and also, again, kind of filters out who's not serious. Right. Because there are a way, both men and women, if we're just out of a breakup or things are rocky with our partner, sometimes we can go on there and just want to get a little, you know, ah, it feels good to know I'm, I'm wanted or interested and that's okay. But it can suck if you're on the other end of that and you don't realize that someone. But if you're like, hey, yeah, we've, we've been texting or chatting for a couple days here and yeah, I'd love to just connect over FaceTime. You're going to find out really fast, is that person actually available? And if they're not, you just saved yourself a lot of time going down that endless chat, waiting for message, messages, rabbit hole. So it's, it's great leadership and it's also a great time. You know, like you said, we're recording this kind of going into the holidays. I remember that was always a hard time to start new relationships or kind of date because oftentimes people travel or aren't available for families, then it's like, oh, there's some energy, but we can't meet up. So now we're just going to chat for a month and the energy will fizzle. Whereas you can establish a little bit of a culture of like, oh, yeah, hey. Well, that felt really good. I know I'm going to be busy for the next while, but maybe we could do this a couple more times over the next couple weeks just to say hi, you know, 10 minutes each time or something like that. And there's a way you can still be building energy there so that when you do come back to a place where you can meet up, like, it hasn't just been stagnant yeah.

Jason Lange: Yeah. One of the tricks, you know, I would particularly say with those surface oriented apps with no friction is they're businesses and they have a business model and the business model is providing you dopamine hits so that you keep coming back to them and they won't, you know, they'll charge you for that too. The point being, you know, that whole electronic ecosystem of notifications and getting the hit of the, oh, I gotta check and swipe and whatnot, that hooks into some pretty deep physiology for us. And they create it to be addictive. It is like a slot machine. If I open up the hap, what's going to happen? And you know, there are studies like, yeah, you haven't opened up the app in a while. They're going to show you some particularly intriguing matches, right. To keep you hooked and feel like you always have to come back. And that can get really exhausting for guys and it can very much disrupt our lives. And what we like to work with our guys on is taking kind of the power back from those apps and instead of them jumping into our lives and interrupting us with, with Notifications and whatnot. It's creating a container around them. So I often, what I suggest is actually turn the notifications off and then choose once or twice a day. How long are you going to go in for to do swipes or respond to messages? And then let that be enough. Right, and then you let that be enough. It's okay if you don't immediately respond to someone, particularly if you're going in every day, that's totally fine. And then if you've kind of done your work, so to speak, for the day, then you're done, then you can be in your life outside of there. And that tends to be very liberating for a lot of guys and help them take some agency and some control back just at the app level. And then what that, you know, continues to support that. We also say, and you know, I've been kind of just giving guys the root loose rule of like 20%. You know, online dating shouldn't be taking up more than like 20% of the space of your life. So you want to make sure you're still doing other stuff, building up your life, creating fulfilling connections, having hobbies, having passions, going out to live events, getting into the world and being active in it. Because the more you do that actually, you know, call it woo, woo. But that energy gets transmitted through your profile and through your interactions. I can feel you're alive, you're vital, you're you, you're doing something. So going to classes where you're interacting with people or following passions like running or hiking. There's so many different things you can do here. But you don't want online dating to take over your life because we have had men and worked with men who are really motivated to get into a relationship and they actually do get matches, but they can suddenly find themselves going on three, four, five dates a week, sometimes for months on end and then they can just get exhausted and then it's not fun anymore and then it's just like. So creating a container around your relationship to the apps and online dating in general is really important of like, yeah, putting some limitations on there and allowing yourself to still have a life outside of it.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. Speaking of still having a life outside of it, this is something that comes up frequently in, in our work and something I'm going to repeat that you just said, which is our strong recommendation is that if you are engaging in online dating that you are equally, if not more engaging in real life activities. So, and this is going to depend on your situation. If you are a busy single dad, this is going to be a lot less realistic for you. So I get it. And this is mostly targeted at men that have a little more time and space in their schedules. But you want to be going to meetup events that meet weekly. So like a hiking meetup that meets weekly or like a board game meetup. Right. It's getting cold out, so stuff this inside. If you, if you find board games intriguing, sometimes people will have like, movie night, like documentary and discussion type things. Improv classes are something that we recommend a lot because it gets you out weekly. Right. You want something where you're seeing people regularly, including women, and there's something that you're doing with them, there's something exciting in the world that you're doing. I. There is an interaction, I've noticed. It's interesting. A lot of our men have changed their attitude or the way that they're online dating and then they've met someone in person. So there is something. There is something energetically. I don't know how to describe it better, but there is some kind of interaction between getting clear on what you're looking for, being willing to put that on your profile, having photos that you feel dignified in that you feel like you have dignity around, and then just moving in the world and bringing some of that energy with you and being available and being open and being interested in other people. So, yeah, the tip is be mindful of and conscious around how you're using the apps to basically protect yourself, to protect your psyche, because it can be really hard. And then also make sure you're putting equally, if not more energy and attention on meeting people in real life and being open to new kinds of experiences and kind of testing things out to see what you like and what you don't. Because I think treating. Treating life like an experiment, like, let me just see, let me try some things and see. Is a lot lower, Lower impact or just it's a. It's a more gentle way of moving through life rather than like, I'm doing this thing and I've got to be really good at it, or I have this goal and I've got to hit this goal. Like, that can sometimes have us feel more restricted in our energy versus, like, I'm testing some things out, I'm trying some things out. I've never taken a cooking class, for example. I'm gonna try that. You know, I don't know. I've never. I've never tried it. Let me see how it is and who's there. And you never know. What's gonna happen? You know, you never know what's gonna happen. You could meet someone in their 60s or 70s and just get along well and you think they're really funny and they invite you to their book club, right? And you're like, that sounds hilarious. Let me be, you know, the only late 30something dude in this book club. Like, sure. And then they're like, I have a niece. I think you could really get along with her. I just made up that whole scenario. But you see where life tends to unfold step by step and we can't see the whole path. But the more open you are, the more available you are to new experiences, the more likely it is that you're going to get to other experiences that you want. So any last comments on that before we get to our final one?

Jason Lange: Community is a key part there and you know, the, just kind of the way to tie this in that I've certainly heard feedback from women around is sometimes the quickest way a woman can get a sense of a man is who's he surrounded his self with in his life. And so being involved in communities, it can, it can be relaxing and actually create a sense of safety as someone gets to know you and gets to feel the people that are around you. You know, I, I certainly remember that was one of the things my wife said when she met some of my core male friends was like, wow, he's like got really solid men around him. And that, that had an impact on her. Right. And so, you know, through these activities and whatnot, you can start to build up those communities that a partner can then join you in and get to know and get to meet and it, it, it tends to just feel really good.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And I think there's something to be said as well for the, that spirit of openness, that spirit of experimentation and bringing that into relationship is, is a huge boon because, you know, I think we're going to have an episode coming up about confrontational tolerance, meaning how good are you at holding differences in a relationship? I want to do this, you want to do that. They're not compatible. Do you just cave right away? Do you dig your heels in? You know, the ability to just hold that space and experiment. Let's try this. How about we try that? That is a really healthy way of going about relationship in addition to going about dating. So this, this spirit of experimentation is, is a sir, is, is will serve you in every stage of a relationship, not just the stage that we're talking about. So the last tip that we have is to do the work. And what we mean by that is, you know, get therapy, go to a workshop, hire a coach, do. Do the work, do the deeper work. Because particularly if you're someone for whom online dating isn't working, hasn't worked. You know, just. You've been having a really, really hard time for a very, very long time, and there may be a polarity issue going on. And I can tell you that one of the things that I'm tracking for, you know, in my. As a woman, as a woman who's attracted to men on the apps, in photos, is do I feel like this is a man who could take me, right, sexually? Do I feel like. Yeah, yeah, like he's got the thing. Like he's. He's alive, he's vital, he's in his body. He's, you know, able to. To drive that kind of experience for me. And so it's not so much about, you know, like, is he tall? Is he balding? Does he have a punch? Does he. Is he. Does he make a certain amount of money? Is he. You know, it's. It's not about the outside packaging that I'm tracking. It's this. It's a feeling. It's, do I believe that this man could take me? And there's a certain feeling, right? And often. Often when I'm on the apps, I'm swiping left a lot. And that's a lot of why. And the reason I bring that up specifically is we work with a lot of guys who classify themselves as nice guys, and they don't necessarily. They haven't fully stepped into their power, and so they're not gonna get the response from someone like me that they want until that deeper level is addressed. So, yes, you want to lay out your vision and you want to do all of this other stuff. And I would argue the. The. The thing you want to look at the most is the deeper stuff. You really want to be doing the work to be engaging with the polarity question. Right. We talk about the heart cock matrix. Where do you land on the heart cock matrix? Have you been in a lot of love relationships where you felt taken advantage of or you didn't feel in control, you didn't know how to lead? You felt kind of like a little boy or not fully. What's the word? Appreciated for what you were providing? Right. And it felt like you were giving and giving and giving and never getting back. Those are all pointing to nice guy syndrome and there. And that is overcomeable. You don't have to Stay stuck there. But if you don't do anything about it, you can do all the rest of these tips and you're not going to get the results that you want. So there's a deeper level that needs to be addressed, polarity wise. If you do want to attract, you know, women who like to flow in their omega, right? If you, you know, we've worked with a lot of guys who've said things like, I've only really been with women who picked me. Like, if I look back on it and I look back at who, who I end, who I ended up with, which is another phrase that a lot of times they're using, it's women who picked them. And there's nothing wrong with that inherently. But I can tell you from having worked with men for over a decade now that there is a certain sense of purpose and power that comes when men get the agency and do the deeper work and are able to move towards women they want rather than waiting for women to come to them. I've seen it over and over where it's like, wow, this feels a lot better. I feel better in my body. I feel more excited and vital. Like I went after, I went after it. And whether she said yes or no is less, less the less the issue. But that drive, that sense of, of power. I keep saying that word, but that sense of power, there's a, there's a way that, that comes across in your eyes. It's. There's a way that comes across in your body. There's a way that comes across in your profile that I am picking up on or not picking up on. And I, as someone who likes to flow in her omega, I want to be taken, I want to be claimed, I want to feel, I want to feel pursued, I guess is, is a word. And I don't mean that in an aggressive way, but just like, I want to know that you can do that. I want to know that I, I will have an ally that I'm not going to be the one driving everything forward. And that's not just including dates. It's also like conversations like, are you going to be a man who's able to speak to the tension that we're having? Right? Like, hey, we're like, we're having trouble connecting right now. Like, let's talk about it. Are you going to be able to do that? There's so much that comes along with, you know, the heart cock matrix and that, that energy, that willingness to engage and drive things forward and be in your power that serves in A relationship, not just in dating. So yeah, our final tip is you gotta do the work. You gotta do the work if you want a healthy, happy love relationship of any kind. Not just, you know, not just a long term marriage, but just all the things we're talking about. This has to get handled. You can't skip this and just keep doing what you're doing and getting the results that you're getting. Right. You need to, to engage in this transformational journey in some way. It, it could be, you know, medicine journeys, it could be breath work, it could be somatic therapy, it could be talk therapy, it could be working with us, it could be getting into a workshop, you know, thinking about, what's that? The L Word workshop.

Jason Lange: Landmark.

Melanie Curtin: Landmark. Thank you. It could be landmark. There's a lot of different ways to engage with personal growth work, but it needs to be in person, in action, or not in person necessarily, but you know, there needs to be action. You can't just consume media and expect transformational results. You have to actually get in there and get your hands dirty and engage with, engage with this. Curious to hear your, your thoughts on that.

Jason Lange: Yeah, transformation, I mean, it shows up in our relationships and it's how it actually happens. So I mean, I've done it myself. I'm a guy, bought a lot of books, listened to a lot of podcasts, gotten online courses that were self paced. And there's a way none of that can matter, doesn't actually lead to any change. But when you're doing the work, as we're talking about, there's almost always a relational component. So you're actually interacting and you can't hide when you're in relationship in this world, in a sense. So that's where so much growth can happen and it's, that's where the empowerment often comes from. Like, I feel like, oh, I have an ability to impact my life and my behavior that feels good versus I feel stuck. And I don't know how to get myself out of this. I feel like a victim. That's not a particularly attractive energy for anyone, truth be told. And so when we're doing the work, we're getting our power back, we're transforming. And you know, oftentimes some of the other things we, we even pointed to if, like, well, yeah, how do I create community or meet other good quality men? Doing the work is a great way to do it. You can start to build community there who become those trusted people around you that you can, are part of your life when you invite someone into it and you know, we've talked about this before that we've just seen the more someone steps into doing their work, the more attracted to and attraction they get from other people who are doing the work. Right. Like it's once you're kind of in that space that's who you start to be attracted to is other people who are self aware and working on themselves and you will you become more attractive to those people as well because they're doing the work so they know what it means that you're doing the work. Someone who's never stepped onto the personal growth path might not care that you went to a 10 day Vipassana retreat or that you've been into deep there because that doesn't mean anything to them. They don't know the vulnerability you've stepped into to do that. Where someone who's in that world will get it and like can be appreciative of like wow, you've really been investing in yourself as a human being and that makes me, you know, makes you more trustable to me. And so this is someone, you know, I can imagine what could we create here? And this is, sets the stage for even creating a growth oriented relationship. If you're already growth oriented you're more likely to end up in a relationship with someone who is going to create something growth oriented with you. And that is a massive liberation for a lot of our guys when they start to step into that.

Melanie Curtin: I think this is a great. We have a man in our program right now who's having success on the apps and one of the things that he included was I'm in a men's group, right. And, and several women were like, hey, that's really cool, you're in a men's group. So that's just one example of, I don't know how he felt. I should actually ask him like were you nervous putting that on your profile? Did it feel woo woo to you? Like how was that? But he was willing to do it and he put it out there. Here's something that I'm up to, right? I'm up to personal growth, I'm up to this kind of thing and it's like a, it's like a homing call where it's like other people that are in invested in that kind of thing or interested in that kind of thing are going to swipe right, they're going to be excited about it, they're going to swipe right, they're going to respond. You know, I can say that's been consistently true for Me, when I see a man's profile who talks about consciousness work in some way, I am paying more attention to whether he messages me. It's not just like, oh, okay, like BB plus. That's, like, that's an A. That's. I'm. I'm. I'm waiting to hear back from this guy. I'm looking for this response. I. This has my attention. And when that is paired with, you know, that feeling of. There's aliveness in his eyes. There's, you know, there's. I can feel his aliveness. I can feel his vitality. I feel like he would be able to come for me. That's, you know, now I'm really interested. Now I really want to know. And so I think there's something. There's something engaging about doing the work and being vocal about doing the work. Right. It's like, don't just do the work, but also share that you're doing it and then see who shows up, because it's going to be a different quality of person. And I heard, you know, another one of our men is in the Midwest, and he's. He's kind of opening up to newer, different experiences. And he's done a really good job of deepening the friendships that he already has, which is something we talk about a lot in terms of having more support in your life and really feeling connected and feeling supported. And. And he and one of his close friends are going to go to a sound bath soon, and that's a new thing for him. And you want to know how many. You want to know the ratio of women to men at a sound bath? You guys, it's like 90% women. You know, you want to go meet some women that are into consciousness shit, go to a sound bath. So I'm excited. It's not necessarily the easiest place to. They don't always do connection stuff between it. It's kind of a passive. You receive the sound bath, but there's the before and there's the after, and maybe there's some hot apple cider and you have a conversation. Who knows what happens? But I think that's a good example of do more of the kinds of things that you. That are inspiring the kind of change and growth and transformation that you want in your life, and then meet the people that are at those events to. And I guess I would also say just when you're. When you're sorting for this kind of thing, when you're engaging in like, okay, yeah, I'm going to do the work, prioritize. Groups, prioritize. You know, our program is a men's group and a coaching program rolled into one. We do that for a reason. Because it's important that you connect with other men who are on this path. It's important that you have community right away. That's a big part of the transformation. So prioritize places where you're going to meet other people and you're going to connect with other people that are also on this ride, that are also doing the work, because that's the foundation for everything that comes next.

Jason Lange: Cool.

Melanie Curtin: Well, I think. Any last comments on that? Otherwise we can tell people how to get in touch with us.

Jason Lange: There's never a better time to start than now. Just that simple.

Melanie Curtin: So, yeah, if you are interested in working with us and joining our program, you can go to evolutionary men slash apply. And yeah, I guess I would just say this is a. This kind of thing, doing the work, whether it's with us or whoever, it doesn't matter. This is really what's going to change your next year. Right. As you're evaluating how 2023 was what you want in 2024, I really encourage you to take any steps towards getting in motion around this, around doing the work, because it is. It's one of the best investments you're ever going to make in your life. Because everything is, everything is related to this. Right. Stepping into your power, being able to feel like you're in control of your life, know what you want, know where you're going, be able to lead, not dominate, but lead. It serves you in every area. So. And it's just really gratifying to see, to see what happens when that, when that's in place. So. Okay, good luck. See you next time.