284: Is cheating (including emotional affairs) correlated with Nice Guy Syndrome? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: There can be a lot of, like, kind of sidestepping or delicate languaging or euphemisms or kind of dancing around sex and intimacy and desire. And for most partners, they're like, well, I don't. That's. That feels like a little boy more than a man, right? A man's like, hey, I'm feeling turned on by you. I want you right now.

Melanie Curtin: Hi, everyone. Quick note. Before this episode, we talked about a lot of different things here that we've covered on the podcast before, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna drop a few of them into the show notes. One, if you are unfamiliar with borderline personality disorder, we did an entire episode on that. And if you have had chaotic love relationships that felt volatile, particularly if you felt like you were walking on eggshells, or if you feel like that right now, if you're currently in a relationship or you feel like you're walking on eggshells, I would listen to that episode. I'm also going to drop in the show notes one of our episodes on polarity, the dance between alpha and omega, also known as masculine and feminine energies. If you're unfamiliar with that, I would listen to that as well. This episode will make more sense. You can listen to this episode first. I'm just saying that these are sort of like continued education. And then also we did an episode specifically about emotional neglect and the correlation between men who've experienced emotional neglect as a child and nice Guy syndrome as an adult. So if you haven't listened to that, I will also drop that in the show notes. And we are running a Black Friday special, which I talk about at the end of this episode. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode. Always love the Jason ones. That's how people refer to them. Oh, I love the Jason ones. So glad to have you back. Thanks for being here.

Jason Lange: Excited to return.

Melanie Curtin: So, today we're talking about a fairly sensitive topic, but it's come up repeatedly enough across the years of us working with clients that I wanted to. Yeah. Do an episode on it and address it directly. And that is cheating. Cheating. Which. And we're including emotional affairs in this. We're not necessarily going to go into a huge definition of what an emotional affair is, but. Well, actually, we'll probably get into that a little bit, but just. I want to. I want to include that because I think when we think about cheating, we tend to have a myopic view of physical. Physical cheating. And for many people, emotional affairs can actually be equally or more devastating. So I want to make sure they're included in the scope of what we're talking about. And we're basically going to be discussing the correlation between cheating and the nice Guy syndrome. If you're not familiar with the nice Guy syndrome, I'm going to include a link to a podcast that we did about it. But it, it comes from Dr. Glover's work, I think the book, the book is called no more Mr. Nice Guy. And this is a constellation of traits that goes along with, with nice guyness that we'll get to. But I do encourage you to listen to that if you're not familiar with what we're talking about there. And, and I want to be very clear from the beginning that, well, we're going to talk about cheating in two contexts. So men who are cheating on their woman partner and then women who are cheating on their male partner. And that's the context for this. All of these dynamics to apply, apply to all relationships. Hetero, queer, anything in between. This isn't, you know, only what we're talking about today is we're taking a specific frame, but these dynamics tend to show up in a lot of people. So it's not just about the relationships that we're talking about today. And then also I want to be very clear from the beginning that we are talking about a correlation. Correlation does not equal causation. So I just want to be really clear. We're not saying that if you're a nice guy, if you have a lot of nice guy traits that you deserved to be cheated on, for example. That is not what we're saying. And that's part of why this is a sensitive topic. Because when we're talking about correlation, we can unwittingly, it can feel like or sound like victim blaming, right? You did this or didn't do this, therefore this happened or didn't happen. A correlation is more like we've seen a trend where in our practice and a lot of the clients that we worked with, there has been a correlation between men with nice guy traits and tendencies and cheating. Whether it's them cheating on someone else or someone else cheating on them, that has. There has been a strong correlation such that we're going to be talking about that today. And I just wanted to make that clear from the beginning. No one deserves to be cheated on. I guess that's what I want to say on either side. Cheating is a form of betrayal. And it comes from a human place right there. The motivations are human and it's a betrayal. So I wanted to say that up front. Any Sort of thing to add to that before we sort of jump in.

Jason Lange: Yeah. For all the examples, you know, we'll give and correlations, we've noticed there are plenty of couples who cheatings never happened. So I think that's kind of what we say. Just because this stuff is happening doesn't mean it justifies it or is the sole reason for it. But there's some patterns and tendencies that we've seen enough that we can make some generalizations to empower men as much as possible. And that's the goal for today.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. So let's start with men who are cheated on. So we've seen this. We've seen this a decent amount in our work. And there. And you know, there it crosses the range. Right. Like I said, in some cases it is emotional affairs. In some cases it is physical affairs. In some cases it is physical and emotional affairs. But can you share a little bit about the sort of felt experience of the men who've had this as part of their lives? I'm thinking, yeah, I'm thinking specifically about one of our men. But can you share a little bit about sort of some of the. The emotional impact that you've seen from this experience?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say it's generally quite devastating for men. Like, and not the sole reason, but for some men reason they finally reach out and get help in that. Like, wow, this. This thing I thought was one thing. My closest relationship is totally something different. And I feel betrayed, angry, devastated, and sometimes kind of lost and confused as to, well, and now what? Like, do I end it? Do I stay in it? What does it mean if I end it? What does it mean about me if I stay in it? And so there can be a pretty overseer sense of large overwhelm for the men. But I would say, yeah, oftentimes just a tremendous amount of hurt. And for some guys, even actually quite a bit of shame like that. The shame that this happened to me in my relationship. And like a lot of nice guys, sometimes even a tendency to kind of lay the blame squarely on themselves.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I. I'm glad that you spoke to that. And maybe this is a good juncture to just briefly talk about what we mean when we're saying the nice guy syndrome or being a nice guy. What are just a few relevant traits that you would add about what that means? What does it mean when we say. When we're talking about this?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'd say nice guys are a version of codependence. So they, they have codependency a lot of Times. And what that essentially translates to is in, in their particularly intimate relationships. This really shows up in any kind of relationship. Oftentimes there's abandoning their own sense of self in order to maintain a relationship with someone else. And so what that often looks like is not having very strong boundaries, not being very good at communicating what they want or need themselves, having a hard, hard time advocating for themselves, having a hard time being in conflict, like literally just being in conflict with anyone, having, you know, opposing views. And there's often a, a lack of just directness with a lot of nice guys where maybe they will have wants and needs, but they're so afraid of getting rejected or making the other person uncomfortable, they won't ask for them in a straightforward way. And so they'll try to get them kind of around the side, as Dr. Glover calls the COVID contract. So it's like a implicit but not explicit agreement. We've nice guys make up in their heads that, oh, if I'm just super nice to you and I do everything you, you ask me to, then you're gonna just have to give me some back of what I want, even if I don't ask for it. And that's where a lot of nice guys can often carry a lot of frustration and resentment about the relationships they get in and can easily be taken advantage of emotionally, physically, financially. Terms of just their willingness to keep extending themselves for other people and not really advocating or setting strong boundaries and being able to say no.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, and I think something I would add to that list is I've noticed a lot of men with this patterning tend to feel used. So they have a tendency to feel used not just by their partner, often by their partner, but by friends in their lives or just people. Like, they don't necessarily feel like they're seen for who they are or valued for who they are. They're valued for what they can provide, what they can give, what they can do for someone rather than who they are. And the irony is that a lot of the time they're holding back, they're, they're actually not fully showing up. They're not actually showing fully who they are. Which in our words would be, this is part of owning your power is being willing to show yourself, being willing to express and show up. And because of that, sometimes others have hard time, have a hard time bonding with nice guys. So if nice guys had a color, it would be beige, right? It's a non offensive color. It kind of goes with everything. It's sort of chameleon like And. And it's harder to bond with beige people because we don't have the vivid colors of them. The good, the bad and the ugly. Right. We. We tend to BO when they are vulnerable with us, when they show us what they want or what they need or where they're not feeling secure. Right. Just being, Being honest and straightforward isn't always about being direct. Meaning, I want this from you. Are you willing to give it to me? But also, I'm feeling really sad today that that is a form of directness and clear expression that a lot of nice guys aren't comfortable with. They're used to trying to make everyone else comfortable and everyone else's needs to be met above their own. And again, I think that there's a strong correlation. Right, again, correlation between nice guys and emotional neglect. So many, many of the men in our practice that are nice guys didn't get their emotional needs met when they were kids. They were emotionally neglected. So their physical needs might have been met, but they weren't attended to. They weren't actually heard, deeply listened to, attuned, to elicit, like, what are you wanting? What are you needing? Right. Like they were left alone a lot. Not necessarily physically, but emotionally. And so they didn't. They didn't really learn how to advocate for themselves. They didn't really learn how to bring themselves forward because there wasn't someone eliciting that from them. And. Or they were around volatile parents where doing that wasn't safe. So they learned to stay small, they learned to withdraw. They learned to make themselves as inoffensive as possible in order to stay safe and to try to meet the needs of those around them to get their own needs met. So I would add, just freeze is another thing that I think is correlated here, which we'll kind of get to when we talk about communicating versus cheating. But yeah, I just wanted to set a little context about what we mean when we're talking about nice guys. So when it comes to. Yeah, nice guys being cheated on, you know, it's interesting because one of the. Yeah. One of the needs in a relationship is. Is sex. Right. Both. Both people are coming to. And we're talking mostly about monogamous, committed relationships, but. So let's stick to that frame. There can be other ones too, but sex is. Is one of those places where I, as a woman, and I am only one woman, but I can speak in a generality. I want to feel you in your power. Right. I want to feel you coming towards me. I want to feel you claiming me. I want to feel you, you know, moving in my direction. I want to feel wanted. I don't, I'm not necessarily wanting to be dominated. I think that, that there, there is that in sex. There can be that in sex. But I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about feeling your desire for me, feeling your want for me, having it be direct and owned in your body. And that is something that nice guys have a big challenge with. In my experience, there's a lot of fear around not making her uncomfortable. Like, I don't want to make her uncomfortable. I don't want her to feel used. I don't want her to. What is the word? Feel objectified. Right. So a lot of nice guys, including those in relationships in married men, not just talking about single men, but married men will hold back and not kind of go after it and be assertive in sex because they don't want to make their wife uncomfortable. They don't want to make her feel like she's obligated or any of that. So I remember there was one story, this was from a woman, not from one of the men we worked with, where she said, my husband's way of initiating is to pat me on the head, like while I'm sitting on the couch, or like pat me on the shoulder. Something like. And she was like, it doesn't feel good. It feels, it doesn't feel clean, it doesn't feel powerful. It doesn't feel, you know, we talk about alpha and omega. That's not a very alpha way of initiating. And, and so that was a turn off to her. She. So it wasn't necessarily, I guess I want to make this clear, it wasn't necessarily that she didn't want to have sex with her husband. It was the way he was, the way he didn't own his sexuality was a turn off. And so sometimes I think that nice guys internalize it and they, they think, oh, it's me. Like I'm not attractive to her, she doesn't want to have sex with me. And it's, that's not always the case. Sometimes it's the way you're going about it, the way that you're, you're not comfortable with your sexuality yet. You're not, you're not really owning it yourself. That's the problem. So it's not how good looking you are, it's not how big your is. It's not, you know, you know, your body shape, it's actually the energy that you're holding in your body around it. And the way you're bringing it to her doesn't feel good. And this is a big thing that we work on with our men in the work that we do. And as they start to own their sexuality, a lot of patterns shift because that, that, that feeling, that sense when you get the polarity right, there can be big shifts in a relationship, you know, sometimes pretty quickly. Can you, can you speak to any of that, that part in terms of what, how a man is bringing sex and sexuality affects his partner?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think a lot of times in my experience, you know, there's different ways nice guys are formed. I think two of the primary ones, one of which you mentioned, or two, both of which you mentioned, one is often of neglect. So there just wasn't space and I actually wasn't taught to attune to myself and ask for what I need to advocate for myself in a sense. And then the other one oftentimes is a meshment. So a meshment with a powerful parental figure oftentimes, but not always a moment. And there's kind of a. Her nervous system becomes the central one over the man's. And that causes kind of an outward facing attunement in a way. But with both of those, what I've noticed is there's often a disconnection from the lower body, right. From the sexual center, from the power, from the place of I want, I need. This is what is driving me right now. And so a lot of nice guys I found and I include myself in this. It's. There's a, there's an interrupt with our healthy impulsiveness. And what I mean by that is our ability to follow our body's impulses. And that gets interrupted and gets replaced by some kind of rumination mentally in the head where we overanalyze things or think, just overthink things in a lot of ways. And because nice guys sometimes aren't totally connected to their, the, their root, their sex, their power, and they're uncomfortable with it, it can be uncomfortable for them to bring it forward to a partner. Right. And so there can be a. This is where we've talked, I think previously about. There can be a lot of like kind of sidestepping or delicate languaging or euphemisms or kind of dancing around sex and intimacy and desire. And for most partners they're like, well, I don't. That's. That feels like a little boy more than a man. Right? A man's like, hey, I'm feeling turned on by you. I want you right now. There's like a, just a directness to. I, I think the most important thing when I say directness is the man is directly connected to his bodily experience and so he's able to share that. For a lot of nice guys, they're not directly connected to their sexuality often because they've internalized some deep sexual shame culturally or through parents or through own experiences that it's not okay. So then there's like the, the kind of delicate dance they try to do that often doesn't feel very good or very attractive.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think the way that this particularly relates to the cheating pattern is that lack of sexual heat, that lack of sexual fire, that lack of, of him coming towards me. I can interpret that as he doesn't want me, he doesn't want me, he's not interested. That might not even be the case on his side. He might be very interested and poor at initiating and doesn't really feel comfortable with his sexuality. So he's not able to bring it forward to her, with her. And sometimes this can last for a while. And you know, I've heard it's, it's a tender thing to talk about marriage and how sex is before and after marriage. But many couples report a shift when they get married. And I think there is, there is a lot of truth to that. I would say that's something that we've definitely seen or heard about in, in the men that we've worked with. And it can be really confusing as a man where it's like, I feel like this part used to work and now she doesn't want me anymore and I don't really know what changed. And it's worth noting that, yeah, there's a, there tends to be a dopamine cliff right around two years of being together. Cohabitating tends to decrease polarity drastically. So if you haven't been living together and then you are. And the truth is that we're always evolving. We both, both people in a relationship are growing and evolving and shifting and our needs shift as that happens. And so sometimes, you know, I think there are women who maybe weren't getting their need met in this area by a nice guy partner and they were kind of just tolerating. It was sort of like fine with them. They were like, I don't know, sex isn't that important to me. Like this person's a great co parent. There are things about our relationship that really work. But then what happens is sometimes they'll meet someone in real life. They'll meet a man where they do feel that excitement, or they do feel that heat, or they do for that fire. And there's not a lot of. Of contrast, meaning they're not really getting that at home. They're not getting that at all from the nice guy. And now here is this presentation of this man who is embodying that energy. And again, I'm not saying it's the right decision. It's never right to cheat. Cheating is wrong. I want to be really clear about that. But what, but what we see is that there's. There's a cr. She's craving something from her partner that she's not getting. And it's the same on the other side. Instead of communicating with him directly about that and saying, I'm noticing, I would like this part of our life to be more fiery. I need more from you. I need more from you in this area. Let's talk about it. Instead of doing that, she goes outside the relationship and we'll get to the vice versa side, which is, I think, similar for men. And that is, I think, also related to a lot of the similar things that we're talking about of when you're raised in a home where you don't know how to bring up difficult subjects, you don't know how to express to someone, my needs aren't getting met, then you're not good at doing it as an adult. So it can be like, I don't really know how to even talk about that with my partner. So I'm just going to do this thing that feels easier and more sparkly and shiny and, you know, available. Right. Like so. Yeah, that, that, that desire, that need for me as a woman to feel wanted by you, that is a deep desire that I have, a deep need that I have in relationship. I need to feel wanted. I need to feel desired. And I remember one of our clients saying she didn't think I saw her in a sexual way. This is about his partner. And, you know, it's ironic because he did see her in that way. Right. He did want her. He did see her. He did value her in that way. But she wasn't. She wasn't feeling it. She wasn't receiving that. She didn't feel wanted. She didn't feel wanted. And there is, I think, I think that's a. I think that's a major player in this landscape is that feeling of being wanted, being desired, being taken. Many, many women report wanting that in their. In their sexual lives, particularly with the, you know, with their partner. Yeah. So that's, I think, one of the stakes involved in not owning that part of yourself, not developing that part of yourself, not feeling comfortable with your sexuality as a man does have certain costs and certain risk factors that come with it. So it's. It's. It's all connected. Any comments on that before we sort of switch to the other side?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I think that's also just a manifestation of not leading in the sense of presencing, hey, this isn't working, and let's form a plan here together to fix this. Right? Oftentimes there's just not discussing it. And that's, you know, again, because a lot of nice guys are kind of powered by fear, and so they don't want to be afraid. There's another tendency we see sometimes with nice guys, which is kind of more along the lines of, yeah, maybe there is some contact between partners, but it's a little bit reverse polaritied in the sense of just like, constantly checking in, like, oh, do you want this? Is this okay? Is this. Which is different from that feeling of. Of. Of being directed and led, that sometimes whoever's playing that omega or feminine side of things is sometimes longing for just that feeling of, okay, I'm just. I can be. Go along for the ride here. And sometimes nice guys have a hard time taking the reins right? In. In that sense, in the sexual sense and in the relational sense. So that'll drive. You know, one way to think about this is just every relationship needs certain nutrients, and sometimes we can be getting a lot of them, but if there's one we're not getting, like, we'll start to crave it. It'll be like, wow, you know, I really suddenly have a hankering for orange juice. And it's like, that's the body's way of saying, hey, you need some vitamin C. Like, get on it. Right? And again, it doesn't excuse it, but it's like it kind of sets the table in a sense that if there is any friction in the relationship already and certain nutrients aren't being met, it's going to more likely happen, I would say, than if. If a partner was getting, you know, their full nutritional value, so to speak. And that's just a place where we've seen, yeah, nice guys not being in the power, their. Their partners can start to kind of long or fantasize for the. Whatever nutrient they're not getting, right. Of just, yeah, I want that feeling of someone coming for me and, you know, taking me and. Or even just sometimes romancing me, you know, sometimes for some nice Guys we've worked with turn, you know, they're actually like total badasses at work and they work really hard and they run companies, but then they have nothing in the tank for when they come home to be able to bring it to their partner. And that can still create that sense of longing. Right. That can then have the partner seek it outside the container of the relationship is again, which we're not condoning. But it's like oftentimes these things don't just happen out of blue. Right. There's certain conditions that predispose things to them. And we're tending to talk about, you know, even if it is cheating and really undesirable, mostly healthy people, you know, again, we often talk about on this podcast, it's kind of a different ball game. If you're in relationship with someone with borderline personality disorder, where there's just no boundaries at all and there may be cheating from the get go, you may find out there's been rampant cheating in every relationship they've been in, and it's actually just part of it. And that's something that's going to be very hard for you to change later on if that's just kind of what that person's working with at this moment in their life.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And it's interesting because we, I, I think it's fair to say we specialize in helping nice guys reclaim their power. That is one of our specialties. And what I can say in working with men over the years is the single men that we work with or divorce, often divorced. But let's, so let's say a divorced man who's had a chaotic relationship sometimes with a woman with borderline personality disorder, as that man does his work, as we work with him and he claims his power and steps into who he is more. What I notice is he tends to attract healthier partners. Right. He tends to attract healthier women as he goes along in his journey. And this, this happens again over time. Sometimes it's like you try again. It's an unhealthy partner, but you figure it out faster. So you don't spend 20 years there. Maybe you spend a year and then you, and then you set a boundary. You actually know how to do boundaries now, so you're able to end something that's not working, for example. And I think I just want to say that because being a nice guy, nice guy syndrome, it's not a death sentence. This is not something that is irreversible. Right. We work with men all the time, and I'M thinking of one in particular who is married and came to us in large part because his woman said a version of I need you to be more in your power. Like I need to feel you more, I need you more in your power. And I don't know what phrasing she used. I think that would actually be really interesting to ask him what were the actual words that she used. But she had done some of her own work already around polarity, so she had a sense of, I think, how to share it in a, in an open hearted way. This woman does not have borderline personality disorder. But so we worked with him and as he stepped more and more and more and more into his power, basically his whole life has improved, including his sex life. Right. So there's a way that the way he's showing up now in the home is he's leading, he's supporting, he's noticing, he's driving in like a gentle way. So not in a dominating way. We're not talking about dominating when we're talking about leading. Leading can feel gentle. It can be, what can I do to help right now that can count as leading. Revealing the truth of your heart can be leading. A lot of times we talk about leading with vulnerability. And here's how I'm wanting this evening to unfold. How are you wanting it to unfold? That is leading. That is also leading. Right. It doesn't have to sound dominating, but as he did all of those things, he was stepping more into alpha. And if you haven't listened to our episodes on polarity, you should probably listen to those. We're using alpha and omega to talk about polarity. Alpha is equated with generally with what other folks say, masculine energy and omega with feminine energy. We all have both in ourselves. This is not just about one person embodying that, but as he was holding alpha more, she was able to be in omega more. And one of the effects of that was surrender in the bedroom. Right. She trusted him more to take care of things. She saw him stepping up, she felt safer and more turned on, more excited. And so their sex life improved drastically within, I mean, only a few months really. So there's something about, you know, that willingness as a man to go, to go into this territory and to really, you know, in some cases get help around it. Like, how do I actually do this? I don't really know what it means to step into my power, but I can see the effects of it in my life. I can see how my love relationships aren't working. You Know, maybe I don't speak up for myself at work. I don't speak up for myself with my family. I'm dreading the holidays coming up. Like, I don't really feel in control of my life. I feel kind of lost. You know, there's a poignant moment. One of our guys was saying something like, I'm in my 40s and I still feel like a kid in a lot of ways. Like, I don't. I don't feel like I've really grown up yet. And I think there's something interesting about that in terms of the men that we've worked with over the years. I have, I have witnessed men become adults. I have witnessed that right in, in the work, as they've grown and they're stepping more into themselves and their power. It doesn't happen overnight, but I do, I understand what that man is saying. And I. And I've seen it happen in some of our guys where energetically they grow up right? They actually become adults. And part of that I, I believe, is if you were emotionally neglected, you weren't really raised. You were kind of raised right, but you didn't get the guidance around how to become a mature adult. You, Your needs were met, your physical needs were met. You were, you were, you know, you had enough food, you had, you had, let's say, a house and all of that stuff. And most of our population has that going on. But you weren't really. You weren't really raised. There wasn't actually someone or there wasn't actually a parent or two parents raising you and developing you as a man, right? So you weren't given a lot of guidance about how the fuck to do it. And then. And it doesn't just tend to happen for some, for some people, it doesn't, quote, just happen. I can't tell you how many guys we've worked with in their 30s who said things like, I sort of thought this would just be handled by now. Like, I thought it would just happen for me. And for some people, that's true. But for a lot of people, it's not. Or they do, it quote, quote, happens, right? They do meet a partner and potentially even have children, but then they spend 10, 15, 20 years in a really chaotic relationship or a really difficult relationship or a really disconnected relationship because they never learned how to advocate for their needs. They never learned how to share what they want. They never learned how to set boundaries, so they. They didn't get the right setup. So I guess I just wanted to speak to that of we routinely witness pretty interesting transformations in this area, and they never cease to inspire me. Like, wow, that that person is showing up differently. Wow. The women that man is attracting are different. Like, the way that this person's marriage is going is different. And it's not like unicorns and rainbows, but it is pretty remarkable. You know, one of our other graduates where he was in a different marriage now. I mean, he is in a different marriage than he. When. Than he was when he started. He is. He's more centered. He's more grounded. He knows where he's at. He leads with vulnerability. And his woman has absolutely shown up on that ride, like, whoa, this is a different version of you. And I'm. And I'm responding in this way. That's a lot more In Omega. Right. I'm. It's more. It's just more inviting. It's more playful. Sometimes it's like, it's more exciting. Can you. Can you say a little bit about that in terms of your. Because our experience is witnessing these transformations I would imagine are different. Since I'm a woman, I'm kind of tracking what it would be like to be with that man versus what it's like to be. Be a man.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I think it's this phrase we've often used of kind of getting in the driver's seat of our own life, where men suddenly learn that they can start advocating for themselves and have the often very positive feedback loop of, oh, I started asking for what I wanted or needed or setting a boundary, and it was met or acknowledged or honored in, oh, wow, I have the power to impact my life. I think that's the big shift we often see as opposed to life just happening to us as nice guys. The shift out of that is, oh, when I'm in my power, I can impact my environment and relationships. My wants and choices can actually have an impact. And it really does tend to bring guys alive. Right. They'll often. They come to us oftentimes to work on their relationships, and we'll see it show up in their work life. Right. In terms of setting new boundaries at work or asking for what they want or thinking suddenly having something enter into their mind they wouldn't have even considered as a possibility before. But it's like, oh, wait, instead of suffering this way, I could just actually ask, like, hey, I' like to do this differently. And then it turns out their bosses will totally work with them on it, and they'll be met in that desire and in that need. And in the relationships, there's Often, you know, a shift here that, that I've often seen is it's a movement away from. I think one of the shadow sides of a lot of nice guys is they're willing to tolerate a lot. So they will actually tolerate not being treated well. And that often then in this weird way, kind of will cause partners, other people to treat them even worse because it's like, ah, come on, it's almost like, stand up for yourself. I'm just going to keep kind of poking you until I can feel you say, no, that's not okay. And obviously it's not always that direct, but sometimes it is in terms of like boundary pushing and whatnot with children or sometimes intimate partners. And the shift away from the nice guy into this empowerment you're talking about is often the, oh, wait, I'm not going to tolerate that anymore. I'm going to say, hey, it's not okay to talk to me like that. Or that's not okay. Like I'm, it's not okay for this to be happening in our relationship. It either needs to change or I need to leave our relationship. And suddenly there's like a huge resurgence of power in a confidence that comes from, oh, I can stand up for myself and I'll, I'll be met.

Melanie Curtin: And.

Jason Lange: And then with that often comes a kind of rejuvenation or a burst of like, repolarizing energy, particularly in relationships. Because the sense is, oh, this is a man who's moving. He's taking care of himself and moving towards what he wants. And that's actually very trustable. Right? It's very trustable. When we see a man doing that, not being an asshole, but. Right. Able to kind of firmly stand in his power with boundaries. And that can very quickly, often repolarize a relationship in the sense of, oh, wow, like, yeah, you're making some changes at work and even you're approaching your relationship with me differently. Right. A lot of our nice guys, their partners will experience that and it creates a little bit of turn on. Right. It creates a little bit of, of that healthy tension again, that just comes from men. Yeah. Reclaiming their power, which is often directly correlated to reclaiming their sexuality.

Melanie Curtin: Absolutely. Yeah. The, the reclaiming of power and the reclaiming of sexuality are inherently linked. Right. We talk about the second chakra, which is your sex chakra. It is also the chakra of creativity and life force. Right. There's chi, there's life force, there's, there's major energy in sex. It's what drives the species forward. So there's There's a lot of power in that. I want to come back to. To cheating. And so if we switch sides, right. If we're talking now about men who've cheated, and we've worked with lots of guys in this category as well. One of the trends that I've seen myself, and I'm thinking also of guy friends of mine, is that they felt trapped in the relationship. They felt trapped in the relationship. They didn't know. They knew they weren't getting their needs met, particularly around sex. I'm talking about sexual now. They weren't getting their needs met, and they didn't have any idea how to bring that up in a skillful way with their partner. So sometimes maybe they said, I feel like we're just roommates. I feel like we're just roommates is not directly addressing anything. It's an indirect dropping of a hint. It's indirectly saying, I miss you. I miss connecting with you sexually. It's an indirect way of saying a lot of things. There's a drop down of 10 things I could list there. And it is very different to reach out to a partner and say, I need to talk to you about something. I'd like to make space on Friday after the kids go down. Does that work for you? That is what we mean by leading. That is different. And then coming to that conversation and saying, I'm terrified to have this conversation with you. I don't know how to do this right. And I'm noticing that there's a pattern in our relationship where we're not having sex. And I don't think it's working for either of us. It's definitely not working for me. I need. I need us to talk about it, and I need us to maybe get some help around this. That would be an example of leading. And it's scary. And a lot of the guy friends and clients we've worked with, that I know they had no idea how to do that. They were like, that would maybe never even have crossed their mind. Like, whoa, you mean I can bring it up? And. And part of the reason for that is I don't want to piss her off. I don't want to piss her off. You know, to your point about avoiding conflict, it's like heading into a conversation that you know is going to be contentious. Heading into a conversation where you don't know what the outcome is going to be and the stakes are high is really hard. And it's extra hard if you're isolated, if you don't have any Connection outside the relationship. One of the reasons that we keep harping on men's work and getting into a men's group and you feeling supported by healthy men in your life is for this reason that when you have to have really gnarly conversations, you got some support, you got some resources, you got some places that, you know you can go process it. You know, you have. You have other men who are like, oh, here's what I said, Here's a resource you might want to try. You have just more backup. So for the men that I know, and I think a lot of the clients we've worked with, they didn't have that conversation. They didn't know how to. They were kind of in a state of freeze around it. And so they went outside the relationship to get that need met. They cheated. They cheated on their partner in order to get a core need met, that they didn't address it with their partner directly. Can you share a little about what you've seen?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it's that. That of avoidance of tension, you know, in a sense, and oftentimes a fear, again, like I said, of conflict. So men will, instead of asking for what they need directly, like in a covert contract, kind of, they'll just try to get their need met outside the relationship with the container because they feel so stuck. Right. And so, okay, it's never going to happen here. So. Well, then I'm justified in going out and having an experience outside the relationship, which again, oftentimes comes from not bringing it to their partner and dealing with that conflict directly. Because there. There's a. You kind of have to. One of my teachers once said, it's confrontational tolerance. It's like. Which is a big part of, you know, when we train guys on their nervous system, like, how much tension can you hold? So you can be in conflict of like, hey, I need this. Because oftentimes, you know, not always, but oftentimes, feminine partners will have a lot of reasons why they're not open to sex or not feeling it or life shifts or hormonal shifts. And it's not always an easy solution. But that doesn't mean you have to let go of yourself as a nice guy. And some nice guys really have a hard time doing that. So they'll kind of go find it elsewhere and someone will kind of be giving it a little bit more freely without sometimes even without them having to, like, ask for it. Right. So it's a way to kind of keep that same problem going. Someone else throws himself at them or flirts really heavily. And there's like, oh, I don't even have to kind of try here and I'll get it. And it is that willing unwillingness to kind of dive into it head on that causes a lot of nice guys trouble. Or, you know, the other place I've seen this for nice guys is they will be. So the idea of, like setting a boundary for them is just sometimes, to no fault of them, so foreign to their nervous system to like have a direct conversation like that that they've already decided it's unworkable and they'll have an affair or cheat. As a way to set a boundary that says, this is now, it's over right now. This isn't necessarily consciously, but the thing about having an affair is oftentimes it is a way of setting a boundary that says how things are working is no longer working for me. Now we have to deal with it. But again, it's not in the healthy way because it's in this totally indirect, often very dishonoring way, but it does force a confrontation in some sense because you can't just keep moving ahead and pretending like things are going to go along. And we've definitely seen some nice guys and you know, honestly, some feminine partners of nice guys sometimes use that cheating as a boundary set of like, hey, this really needs to. We cannot keep going like this. Which is, again, it's just that indirect way of trying to deal with things.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And the truth is couples are complicated. Couples are complex ecosystems. So I just want to be clear too, that having this conversation or driving this kind of thing, it can be, hey, we need help. We need help. And I'm going to do some research and I'm going to come up with some options. And that's the truth. So you don't have to know everything. The whole point of people like you and me, couples counselors, you know, honestly, people that work with mdma, with couples, for example, the guides and trusted resources out there are there for a reason. And. And they're not all good. Right. Like there, it's sort of like if I told you, oh, yeah, get your car fixed, go to any mechanic, you would have a sense that not all mechanics are good mechanics. Some mechanics are going to charge you a lot more than others. Some are more nefarious, some are going to take longer to help, et cetera. You have a sense that they're not all created equal. And I think that sometimes when it comes to mental health or support, we have this idea, like, I went to therapy and it's like we act like that's all the same thing. It depends on the therapist. It depends on the couples counselor. It depends on the guide that you get. But there are trustable guides. There are people that you can find. There is support that you can bring in. And I think particularly when it comes to couples, if you're feeling stuck, you might be stuck. Like you're not wrong. But not talking about the stuckness and not bringing in support to address it will have consequences. It will definitely have consequences. It might not be cheating, but I can tell you right now, there will be something. Something will happen. Something will shift. Yeah. So the last thing I wanted to say on this particular topic is. Yeah, just the compassion. Just bringing in compassion for ourselves, for our lineage. Right. Our parents, our grandparents. It's hard sometimes to carry the paradox of this person who was wonderful in so many ways and also this. Had this dark side or made these dark choices that it can be hard even in ourselves. Right. To. To reconcile that. Right. How do I sit with these poor choices I made? Right. These bad choices that I made? And bringing compassion to that whole process, I think is really critical in the healing journey and genuinely repairing. Genuinely repairing damage. So if you are someone who has caused harm by cheating or having an emotional affair, like, you can address that harm. Almost every mistake we make in life, we can address the harm and we can repair, at least attempt repair. Sometimes people aren't available for that, and that is. That is their choice. We need to respect that. But I think that, again, back to the sort of maturity. I remember one of my guy friends choosing to go back to a woman. He had kind of a questionable sexual experience with her. And he went back and he said, knowing what I know now, I think that you were in freeze. And I took advantage of that, and I'm sorry. And I think that is an act of love and a pretty impressive demonstration of maturity. And he was. He was crying when he did it. I mean, it was a whole. It was a whole thing. It wasn't as straightforward as I just phrased it, but he went back and repaired harm. And she was deeply touched. She. It really meant a lot to her that he was willing to be vulnerable in that way and really own his own. His part. And so what does that do on her side? It builds trust in men, not just with him, but, wow, men can show up this way, Men can repair this way. I didn't even know that was possible. So I guess I just want to make it clear that even if you. If you're listening to this and you've cheated. Let's say there is often repair that can happen and there is compassion to bring to the equation as well. Those are not irreconcilable. Any thoughts on that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it takes, takes work. I mean it's kind of, that's where that confrontational tolerance comes in, is just the willingness to go into the unknown and as men, when it's on our side, own our side of the equation. You know, what kind of how some of our behaviors were conducive to whatever happened, whether we cheated or were cheated on. And, and just that, hey, but I'm here now and I'm willing to try to figure this out. And it's definitely possible. We've worked with people who have been able to come through that and make something work long term that creates even more love in, in connection in some pretty powerful ways. But it does take that willingness to really actively step in and own and be present. You know, some we, we often talk about, of, hey, let's actually talk about what happened or what's going on here and be willing to get outside support because it's, you know, particularly if, if it is some kind of infidelity to re. Establish trust sometimes takes more than just that couple. It takes a third party to kind of come in and help them and track them to make sure those same conditions don't spring up again. Right. That there's, there's someone else kind of looking out for their team. And if you're willing to lead that as a man, that can go a long way. You know, if you have a partner who's willing and open to that of like, hey, we need help. I realize that now.

Melanie Curtin: And sometimes, you know, what's required to repair is, is for a man to step up or a woman to step up and do their own work. So couples counseling is not a magic bullet. It's not like we're going to get together and talk about this and then everything's going to be better. Sometimes it's, yeah, the man isn't, hasn't been in his power and it's like, well, couples counseling isn't necessarily going to help you with that. Working with people like you and me, taking, doing men's work. Right. Taking other kinds of steps and actions can sometimes, you know, drive a lot more change. And I can't tell you how many couples, or I guess I'd say how many men we've worked with where the work we've done with them has generated more change and they're drastically more change in their relationship than couples counseling did. Because we're working with them on their nervous system and grounding into themselves and becoming more of themselves, bringing more of that alpha energy forward, which helps with everything in the relationship. And then she's able to respond to that versus just talking about it. So there is no magic bullet. And sometimes part of the solution is her doing her own work, him doing his own work and doing work together. It's not just doing work together. That's not, you know, it's not always. It just doesn't always work that way. But yeah, I, I wanted to just briefly wrap with, you know, this is a lot of what we do. This is kind of. This is a lot of the work that we do is we really help nice guys get into their power, step into their power, become more of themselves, root down and, and take control of their lives. And when I say that, I don't mean controlling life. It's not that you control life, but when you have that sense of agency, when you have that sense of, I am a person who can set boundaries, man, the way that life feels is so different, right? If you go in to the holidays, let's say having a plan, if you've got like a relative with borderline personality disorder, for example, and you have a plan, you're like, if this happens, I'm going to leave the house, right? If this happens, I'm going to go outside and call my coach. If this happens, you know, I'm. I'm going to make a different choice rather than I'm just on this ride and I don't really have control over it. And whatever happens, like, oh, your poor nervous system, of course you're going to be stressed out about going back into that house because you weren't safe originally. You're still not safe. Like, it's not a safe house. So I just, I think I'm sensitive to that because, you know, it is Black Friday today and a lot of people are going to be around bio family, either this weekend or coming up in the next few weeks. And I think that's. It's just, it's a, it's a potent time to talk about this topic of being in your power, which includes being able to set boundaries. Speaking of Black Friday, we do have a Black Friday special which I wanted to touch on briefly before we wrap. If you are interested in coaching with us, if you sign up for our program within the next week, you will get three bonus. One on ones with me, with Mel, and that is. It's pretty rare. So just throwing out there and the way that you would book an exploratory call is going to evolutionary men slash apply. And again, if you feel stuck, or if you have felt stuck, if you want a better relationship in your life than you have historically had, that is possible. And it doesn't have to be with us. You don't have to work with us. But I guess I just want to end with this is possible. We have seen lots and lots of men do it. It's not rocket science. You can make changes in this area and they can have an outsized impact on the rest of your life, because small changes now become big changes down the road. Anything you want to add before we close?

Jason Lange: There's no time to start like, now. As simple as that. The thing with most guys is we can always think of an excuse as to why we have to wait till tomorrow. But the truth is, some of these things you don't have till tomorrow. Like, you get. You just gotta start. You just gotta start. And we're a great way to do that, Sam.