I just did an episode on Dear Men with Melanie Curtin about nervous system regulation in relationships. One of those conversations that felt really important, particularly for men who find themselves constantly trying to take care of their partner's emotional state while their own tank is running on empty.
We talked about what regulation actually looks like. Not the clinical definition, but what you can feel in your body when you're regulated versus dysregulated. When you're regulated, you're present, your breathing is deeper, your heart rate is calm. You're available for connection. When you're dysregulated, you're either shut down and collapsed, or you're wound up and anxious. Nothing works. Anyone who's been a parent recognizes this immediately in their kids, but we often miss it in ourselves.
The core tension we explored was this paradox. On one hand, co-regulation with your partner is one of the greatest benefits of being in relationship. On the other hand, if you're the only source of regulation for your partner, that's when things get lopsided. That's when the word "burden" starts showing up. I shared about being with a partner who had an autoimmune disorder and how, when she didn't have support outside of me, it started to feel less like connection and more like exhausting work.
What I've come to believe is that relationship requires a two-part commitment. First, you've got to be generous with tending your partner's nervous system. But second, and this is the one that gets missed, you've got to take care of your own nervous system first. You can't give what you don't have. Both partners need their own practices, their own support networks, their own ways of metabolizing what life throws at them. Therapy, men's groups, creative outlets, physical practices. Whatever it is, you need something outside the relationship filling your bucket.
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Jason Lange: Both partners kind of need to step into that because otherwise it does get lopsided. And one partner can often just keep giving and giving and giving and get burnt out or get fried or get resentful. But when both partners are making that good faith effort to take care of themselves, which, like you said, totally involves getting support outside the relationship. Right. Whether that's therapy, physical practice, men's groups, art therapy, dance, you know, there's so many different things, but. But our partner, you know, can't fill our bucket for us.
Melanie Curtin: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode with Jason. Always love these ones. Thanks for being with us.
Jason Lange: Yeah, glad to be back.
Melanie Curtin: So today we're talking about something that's a bit sensitive, but it is a trend that has come up, I would say, for both of us in our love relationships and many, many of our clients. And this is what happens when your partner is dysregulated. And we're going to talk about regulation a lot this episode. So I think it might be worth just touching on what do we mean when we say regulated and what do we mean when we say dysregulated? So maybe we could start there. Would you like to just bring us in on what those two terms are talking about?
Jason Lange: Yeah. This is a big topic. Obviously, there's lots of different frames for this, but just at a nervous system level, you know, regulated is when we're relaxed and present and open for connection in a lot of ways. Our heart rate tends to be lower, our breathing tends to be deeper, and usually we're present in the moment, something we talk about a lot when we're dysregulated. Oftentimes we're either kind of on one or two poles. One just kind of shut down and turned off in a sense, not really any energy, not any engagement. The other would be too wound up. So actually anxious or highly reactive and energetic in a sense, but often in more in a state of kind of rumination, higher heart rate, kind of panicky is another way to think about it. And, you know, we can see this at least, I can see this obviously, a lot as a parent with a child, of when they're just like, too tired or they've been too stimulated. It's kind of the everything that might normally work, doesn't work, types of conversations or routines. It's just like nothing's working. And there's high levels of frustration or emotion that are dysregulated, you know, show point to signs of dysregulation versus, you know, when my child is regulated. Yeah. We can have conversations. They're open for connection, able to follow routine and tasks in order and whatnot. And that same process, you know, shows up for us as adults.
Melanie Curtin: That was a great overview. And I love that you brought a child into it because she's, I think, three. She's kind of three turning four at this point. So it's really obvious. Yeah, very obvious. Right. Big emotion, big tantrums, big frustration, big meltdown. A lot of just emoting and output. When we grow up and we become adults, it doesn't necessarily look that obvious. But, yeah, dysregulation can look like irritability, snapping, being short, anxious, freaking out. Like, the normal words that we use for this state are just like, I'm freaking out, I'm not okay. Or I'm kind of in freeze, right? Like, I'm depressed down. I'm withdrawn, I'm moody. I'm just not really okay. And I think it's normal and important to say that it is normal for us to go in and out of states of regulation and dysregulation. So, no, nobody is regulated all the time. It's just not possible. Because life is hard. Life is hard, and modern life is hard. I saw a meme the other day that said we. We do things now that it used to take tens to hundreds of people to do all by ourselves and then wonder why we're so tired. So we. We live very isolated lives now. And so we're doing everything ourselves. This includes, you know, things like child care, but also just cooking and cleaning for yourself. Like, when you don't have any help, you have one of those days where you're like, I'm just tired. Like, I don't have the energy in me. And then you eat unhealthy food because you order in, and then it affects your body, and then you're more dysregulated. You know, life is hard. Life is hard. So it's not. We're not saying, you know, it's a problem if your partner is dysregulated sometimes, but we are going to be talking on this episode about what happens if your partner is dysregulated a lot. Like, they are frequently dysregulated and they perhaps rely on you for emotional regulation. For regulating. This is a pattern that we see a lot and one that you've sort of lived. You've had experience here. And I'm curious if we can start maybe with your. With your experience of what that was like to be with a partner who was pretty dysregulated. A lot of the time. Like, what was your experience like there?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think what's. What's key here is like, sometimes we talk about. This is a. This is a dosage thing. So I do just want to say, first and foremost, one of the greatest resources we have with each other in reg in relationship is the ability to co regulate. It's like one of the actual benefits. And why do you put all this time and energy into creating, you know, a we. It's for this. Because suddenly it's like, oh, okay, our nervous system can kind of take on more in the world. But what we're talking about here is when it becomes a little more lopsided or uneven or there's just challenge in that. In that. And another thing I just want to sneak in there is the thing about regulation and dysregulation is it's kind of like being sick and not sick, right? When you're not sick, you just, you like, part of what feels good is you're not feeling sick, right? And then you feel sick and you're like, wow, oh my God, I'm gonna be so happy. Be so grateful next time I'm not sick. And then when you're not sick, you're just like, you don't think about it. Right. Regulation's kind of like that. There's just like a, I'm here, I'm available. Right. And when we're dysregulated, it feels really intense. And it's that contrast that is, I think, the most obvious to see. But, yeah, I had a partner who suffered an autoimmune disorder and, you know, was pretty newly diagnosed when we first met, so she hadn't quite learned how to live with it herself yet. And we were both kind of a little bit more introverted. And so a lot of that fell on me. Just in terms of when she was feeling down, she needed a lot of support and attention from me in terms of, like, sometimes literally being in intense physical pain. And the problem we started to hit was when I was also dysregulated. So if I was exhausted or didn't have the energy to kind of show up or be present for her, that caused a lot of conflict. She didn't quite have a network yet at that time to get support outside of me. I strongly encouraged it. But it was something that was, you know, still in process for her, and that would cause us both pain then, because then there was both the pain of, you know, what she was actually going through, but then the pain of Also feeling rejected because I needed to take space. And I think that was a. A big one in that sense. And there were times that I was not doing a great job of taking care of myself. You know, I've shared bunches of those stories on here. And so I wasn't actually often even able to show up with full presence and energy and attention to really connect with her, which then added another layer of discomfort between us and dysregulation.
Melanie Curtin: Thank you for speaking to that. You know, one of the things that I heard, One of the things that I heard was it sort of kind of worked when you were. When you were regulated, when you were resourced, it broke down when you weren't. And that's, I think, something that we see a lot that I've witnessed in our men who are in these kinds of relationships is it sort of kind of works when they are resourced and they can be that support that she's wanting and they can show up well and they can, you know, be there to help her regulate. And when they can't, when, like you said, they're exhausted or they lost their job or their parent is sick or their friend is on suicide watch, right? Something's going on for them or even just smaller things, right? They're just. They're just exhausted. They just had a really long work week. Like, that's not. I'm not just talking about extreme things, but just when they're not able to then provide that same level of resourcing, there's a reaction, right? There's resentment on. On the woman's part of, like, where are you? Like, I'm not okay. I need you to be here with me so that you can help me be okay. And there can be rage that comes up of, like, why aren't you. This is extreme. But I'm just gonna say it like this. Like, why aren't you serving me? You're supposed to be here. You're supposed to be here. You're supposed to be here. You're supposed to be helping me feel better. And where are you? Right? You're in. You're here in the room, but you're not really present or you're not here. And I'm enraged that you're not here. Again, I'm taking this a little bit to an extreme, but I do think that there's a lot of truth to it. Can feel. Well, you can speak to this, I think, from your experience. But what I have witnessed in. In our men is that this is exhausting. It's draining it, it takes a toll over time, a big toll. Like, it's, it's really, really draining because there's sort of a relentless quality to it. It's like there's not really a break. It doesn't really feel like he has space for himself. It doesn't. Sometimes it's like it doesn't even really feel like she's ever okay, which is not really the case. But this is what I'm pointing to a sort of. If this is chronic, if this pattern is chronic, it can be really, really hard and really tiring. Can you say a little bit about what your experience of that? That part was?
Jason Lange: Yeah, it just started to be less fun. I mean, that was the main thing of just like, oh, it, you know. A common word we often men seem to battle with is this idea of burden. And it's like there's like a heavy. Right, you can just, oh my gosh, you need support again, or here we go. It's not fun. There's no play, there's no energy. It's like. And it began to feel like a burden sometimes to connect. And that is definitely exhausting in the long term because then it's like, well then why am I even in this? Like, I'm putting a lot of energy in, but I'm not necessarily getting a lot of energy out. I think is where, you know, I certainly was at different points in that relationship. And a lot of men kind of fall into if they're not getting some energy back in some regard and they're just kind of constantly trying to take care of, of their partner and you know, unsurprisingly. I think one of the reasons we see this a lot in our clients is it can be really closely related to nice guy syndrome in that this is not the universal case. But for a lot of nice guys, part of kind of the origin story of that, so to speak, is having a dysregulated parent, oftentimes in particular a dysregulated mother, who at an early age, kind of one of the foundational principles of that relationship gets broken where instead of parent regulating child, child quickly learns, oh, push my needs down so I can co regulate mom or dad and make him or her feel better. And unsurprisingly, that pattern they learned then stays with them through life. And it can always feel like, yeah, they're having to make the people around them feel better and at the cost of their own nervous system. Many, many times.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And that's the part that I want to talk about because the There. This is a sensitive topic. This is a really sensitive topic. And I am, I think, a good woman to speak from this place because I would say that I have had trouble regulating over the course of my life. So I've not been a sort of steady, sort of, what do they call it, like a steady Eddie. Like I'm, I'm, I'm emotional, I do have big feelings, I have big swings. And it's funny because I want to be very clear that we're not in this episode. We are not saying that anyone needs to be any different than they actually are. That is not what we're saying. And I don't feel like I need to be different than I am. And I need a lot of support. I need a lot of support and I get a lot of support, right? I have set things up in my life to be able to have multiple sources that help me regulate. So I don't put it all on my partner. And that's really what we're talking about is diversifying the number of places that you get support and that she gets support. And I'm going to give you a couple of examples. One of the places I get support from is my close friends. And I keep in pretty close contact with them. And so I'm processing what's going on in my life and in my relationship with my close friends. I also get somatic therapy on a weekly basis. I use exercise to regulate. That's one of my strategies. I live in a house with other people, I have housemates. I have spent a lot of time and energy and attention on co living environments throughout the course of my life. Because when I live with people, I am more regulated when I see people on a regular basis and it's easy, right? I don't have to fight to see them. I don't have to cross town, I don't have to see if they're available, right. I don't have to kind of make a big effort. I am more regulated. So again, the ways that we live in modern culture actually tend to have us more dysregulated, not less. We used to live in environments where we were embedded in community. We were embedded in it, we were part of it, it was part of us, we were part of it. So we were doing things like helping the kids, even if they weren't our kids, we were helping children, which gives you a sense of value and purpose in the world, right? You're doing something for someone. We were helping the elderly. There was, there was community around all the time. And we were part of it and that helps us to co regulate. We are social animals. We are the same as, you know, monkeys and dolphins and other pod based groups. And yet many of us are living these isolated lives. So it's inherently harder for all of us to regulate. And so if you imagine a couple and both of them work from home, or even just one works from home and it's the only person they're seeing a lot, it's really easy to become codependent. And so I'm just pointing it out to say that this is a big part of the equation and a big part of how I have learned to regulate is co living, right? Living with other people, being around other people on a very, very regular basis, particularly as an extrovert. I need a lot of interaction, I need a lot of attention to feel good, to feel okay, to feel regulated. So part of what's awkward about this is that a lot of our men, and I appreciate you saying that about you know, the history or sort of like the, often the backdrop of this is that a man grew up in a home where there was a parent that he was, he was regulating, that he was helping to regulate and so he was pushing his needs down. That is also often true of the person of the woman. I'm just going to use this example we're talking about a man, woman relationship with where the woman is dysregulated a lot and the man is, is helping her regulate a lot. The woman often also comes from that background and she has her own, you know, story and her own situation. I know that's very true for me as I, my mother was very dysregulated and volatile and I did everything I could to like, make sure she was okay and frankly try to preempt her upset. So like clean the house. I would, you know, I was, I trained in hyper vigilance and I think a lot of these women are my archetype. Right. They are also hyper vigilant, which if you haven't heard that as a term is kind of like I'm, I'm sort of always on guard, right. I'm always tracking particularly the emotional states of people around me. Are they okay? Am I okay in their eyes? That kind of thing. And like sometimes when I get dysregulated, I'll get really annoyed at the environment. Like, oh, why isn't the bathroom clean? Like why did this person leave a dish out? Like I get, yeah, irritated, angry and I have to sort of keep myself in check around that. And you know, I Think there's a lot of value to understanding the reasons for this, like, why we become this way. And I also want to be really clear that I have become much more regulated over the years. So as we do personal growth work, as we do somatic therapy, I guess I just want to say it fucking works. There is a reason to invest in this, right? In nervous system regulation. And I would also say I do do practices like morning yoga and exercise in the morning. I do my version of spiritual prayer. I don't like, love the word prayer, but spiritual grounding work in the evenings, right? I do. I do things to kind of help myself regulate during. During the day and, and during the evenings. And I cultivate that practice. So it takes a lot, actually, to be a regulated human being. I guess that's what I want to say is this isn't like, oh, just do these one. A few things. It's not. It doesn't work like that, but it can be done. And it's not any one thing. It's the addition of all of these things, right? It's having all of these things in place and knowing what to do and how to. How to work it when you are dysregulated. And like I said, it's sort of. It flows in and out. It's not like there's this goal of just like being happy all the time. That is not what we're talking about. But I want to go back to something that you said about energy in a relationship and, and flow, because I think that. So if we talk about Alpha and Omega, we talk about polarity. One of the gifts of Omega is, is flow, is energy, is vivaciousness, is vitality, is sparkle, is just sort of like we, you know, we say that Alpha is the banks of the river and Omega is the water. It's the rushing water. It's exciting, it's. It's flowing, it's music, it's dance, it's, you know, and we all have both Alpha and Omega. But in a relationship, if one person is holding the alpha pole more, the person that's holding the Omega pole, like, has a big role in that relationship to, to be in her flow and to like, bring energy and vitality to the relationship. And I, and I. And one thing that I hear from my men a lot, and I work with both men and couples, is like, when she is happy, when she's in a good place, when she is radiant, it brings him so much energy like her. When I say, like, being in her flow, I'm not talking about her putting attention on him necessarily, right? I'm not talking about her giving him a massage or giving to him, but like singing in the kitchen, right? Like just enjoying her body, enjoying what she's wearing. Like just her being in her flow or just her radiance is inherently life giving to her partner. And I see that over and over. And so when, when she's in a dark place, when she's not able to bring her radiance, it affects the relationship. And I want to be cautious about this whole topic because I myself am sensitive to. I can't be like that all the time. There's no way I can be like that all the time. It's simply not possible. There are times when, let's say I'm stressed financially, right? I'm worried, I'm, I'm preoccupied, I'm. And I, I do need help, right? I do need help. And there must be a balance. There must be a balance. In a healthy relationship, there must be a balance. So the sort of thesis of this whole sort of discussion is it is each person's responsibility to tend to their nervous system, to come to the relationship with presence and energy. It is each person's responsibility to do that. And this is a really sensitive topic because it's. I think we're going to talk about how to talk about this with a partner, but I think it can come across as, or the fear is that it will come across as you're in a bad place and you should be in a better place. And that is not what we're saying. Right? That's not, that's not the gist of this, but there is a lot of truth to that part about radiance, vitality, wellness, wholeness. It's like, it's a goal worth reaching for inherently and it also affects the relationship drastically. Can you say a little about that?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I've been thinking about this a lot, particularly over the last years as we've been working more with, with couples and, and men in existing relationships. And there's actually a paradox here of a two part commitment that, that I believe in at least when it comes to relationship that yeah, part of the, part of what makes relationship work is a deep commitment to being overly generous with taking care of and tending our partner's nervous system. But that has to be paired with and matched with the other responsibility of what you just said. It's each partner's responsibility to take care of themselves and tend their nervous system so they can show up in the relationship with enough energy and presence to Be able to connect. So it's kind of both things, right? Like one way you can think about a relationship is when we do become really generous with, with making offerings to our partner's nervous system. But that, you know, it's kind of the, you know, you got to put the oxygen mask on yourself first. You can't even do that unless you're taking care of yourself first. But if both partners are tending their own system, suddenly you have energy to be generous to your partners. And that's where it can be a very generative relationship. But the thing I've seen here, and you know, honestly where this often shows up in long term relationships is around sex, is a couple is feeling disconnected sexually in terms of physical intimacy. And often what gets in the way, you know, if there's kids or really busy jobs, is we don't have enough energy, it's the end of the day and we just, I just want to watch tv. I just, I can't do it. I can't, I can't go there. And this is where something I've become pretty passionate about and you know, an edge I often have to work in my own relationship is, well, if I want relationship to work, I have to do the work. So as we get older, you know, we don't necessarily always have a ton of time to spend relationally with our partners. So when we do have that time, what do I have to do, so to speak, in the day to day so I can show up into that space really actually able to be present and ready to connect, which can include, you know, sexual intimacy in that. And this is one that scares, you know, kind of freaks a lot of people out because sometimes there's big choices that have to be made, right? Of well, I never have time because I work, you know, work takes too much or I'm just exhausted physically all the time. Well, then we have to start looking at taking responsibility for like, oh yeah, how do I, how do I need to start eating differently so I can show up in my relationship? What kind of boundaries do I need to set at work so I can show up in my relationship? How do I actually have to structure my life differently to be able to show up and actually be available? I think that's the word I was looking for is to, to actually be available to connect and relate to our partner if we're too fried and disregulated, were actually not available. Right. You know, disregulated in other ways you can think about that is like, yeah, shut down, freeze, collapse, or just on Edge. Right. I think that you were, you were talking about that there's like that hypervigilant, like I'm on edge. And you can feel it when someone's on edge. And they're not often they're not actually present in the room in the same way. They're looking into the future or ruminating about the past, but they're not actually right there. And so this responsibility of, well, if I want my relationship to work, it's up to me to take care of myself so that I can show up in the relationship, available to connect, available to have interactions emotionally or physically. And that crosses a huge spectrum of taking care of ourselves physically, emotionally, and even spiritually. And both partners kind of need to step into that because otherwise it does get lopsided. And one partner can often just keep giving and giving and giving and get burnt out or get fried or get resentful. But when both partners are making that good faith effort to take care of themselves, which, like you said, totally involves getting support outside the relationship. Right. Whether that's therapy, physical practice, men's groups, art therapy, dance, you know, there's so many different things, but. But our partner, you know, can't fill our bucket for us. Like they ultimately can't. They can kind of top it off, you know, but there's got to be something in the bucket. Otherwise doesn't really work.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I want to, I want to kind of highlight this part about getting outside support. So somatic therapy. Everyone knows I'm a huge fan. And one of the reasons that I am a huge fan is because it can help us discharge a lot of stuck energy quickly if you're getting the right kind of somatic therapy. Jason and I both get network spinal analysis, which is a form of somatic therapy that is heavily evidence based on emdr. Somatic therapies are abound. I will drop in the show notes for this episode, the episode that we did entirely about somatic therapy coaching like our program places like our program, coaching therapy. I was. When I say talk therapy can also be very regulating for a lot of people. Workshops. Leaning in, leaning into personal growth work, essentially. Right. Leaning in breath work is another way of, of discharging old stuck energy in the body because the body mind is only going to be able to be as open as it is physiologically. So if you don't have physiological space, then you're not going to be able to, to be open. What happens a lot is that we, because we do go in and out of these states, let's say there's a woman who, you know, is dysregulated a lot and has kind of been functioning herself somehow around that. When she finds a partner that can help her regulate sometimes it can be like, oh wow, this feels a lot better. I'm getting the support that I've never gotten or that I've never gotten in this way. And so now this is the one place that I go, right? I know this is reliable, I know this works. I get the love and attention and approval that I need. Or even just physical touch, right? Can be very co regulating. So physical touch, affection, eye gazing is really good. Belly to belly breath. We can get into physiological hacks for those of you that are in relationship around co regulation. But there can be this, this reliance, right? This dependence, this reliance on this source of support, right? This becomes my primary source of support and there's nothing wrong with that. But what if it's the. If it's your sole source of support that is a problem, right? There needs to be a diversity of that in your life. And again, I want to normalize that. We used to live in intergenerational ways. We used to have access to elders. We used to be able to go to others with our burdens, with what we're going through, with our worries, with our concerns, with our, with what's on our heart. There used to be a lot more people available all the time and now we tend to be quite isolated. And so it's easy to fall into this pattern. I think that's what I want to say is I think it's very easy to fall into this pattern and we have to actually be mindful and actually make efforts and take, take strides to, to overcome the hurdle of not becoming codependent. It's sort of like in modern life, codependence is easily the default. And so we need to take actions to stay interdependent. And like you said, you know, men's groups and women's circles and things outside the relationship can be a great resource. I would also just say that, you know, this is not, this is not a one sided equation, right? Like I have had partners where they were dysregulated a lot and that, that came at a high cost. They. I'm thinking of one man who trended towards what you were saying of just quite high strung, right? He would ruminate a lot. There was a lot of worry about the future. And so we would spend time together and it would feel like you're technically here, meaning I'm seeing your body, but I'm not feeling you with me. Right. You're not really here. And it was. It caused distance, right? It created distance in the relationship. And he didn't have a lot of outside resources. He wasn't getting a lot of support outside the relationship. And I started to feel resentful, like I'm. I show up with energy a good amount of the time, and I have a lot of. I have invested probably hundreds of thousands of dollars in my own nervous system by this point. I have invested a lot in that because to me, it's one of the most important things in my life. And it does affect me, but it also affects people around me. Right. When I'm regulated versus dysregulated, like, it's not that fun to be around me when I'm dysregulated. I'm really, really obvious about it. I'm not someone who can hide it very well. So this does happen on both sides of the equation. And in my experience, it was really hard to share that. And that's where I want to go next, because I think that's really important is it was really hard for me to find the words and to say, I don't feel as connected to you a lot of the time because you're dysregulated. It felt like that would be offensive. You know, he would take it the wrong way. I didn't even really have those words at the time. I just. I didn't know how to do it. Like, I didn't know how to say it. And so I left the relationship. And I want to talk about this because I think this is extra sensitive because the. Often the period of time during which we need to communicate this, it's not a great time. Like, the person's going through a hard time. There's a reason that we're bringing it up. There's a reason that we're saying it. And so I'm curious, you know, in your case, I think I know the answer, but maybe we can explore it. Anyway, how. How did this conversation go? Did you have this conversation with the woman that you were with who was dysregulated a lot? You know, how did that go? How do you recommend men have this conversation? Because it's. It's quite sensitive.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I can't say it went terribly well when I had it in. In particular, why that was is because, you know, in reflection, if I look back, I also wasn't really taking care of myself, so there was a little bit of unfairness, and you need to take better care of Yourself when I'm not actually right doing the same. And I think she picked up on that. And you know, we ended up parting ways because there were just some ways we, we didn't connect in that sense. And I was getting a stronger sense if I need to go take better care of myself so I can be more available for a future partner. And that I want a partner who has some capacity, right, or not even capacity, but already has some structure built in to her life. So there's not starting from scratch. And so, you know, I mean, the end result of that conversation was, you know, I transitioned into new relationships and found a new partner, my wife, who did and was, you know, already doing somatic therapy and yoga and pottery and different things to help her metabolize and process in her nervous system to learn to regulate herself in, in terms of how to have this conversation. You know, I have been thinking about that and it, it ties into this kind of two pronged thing that my sense as a guy, if I was going to lead this conversation now, I would talk about what my commitment is, so I would share. My commitment to us is that I want to be able to show up, present open and connected with you and enough gas in my tank that I can be generous to you. Which means here's some of the things I'm seeing I need to do to take better care of myself. So I would kind of start there with the commitment on my side and then kind of open the door to. And yeah, what about for you? What do you think would help you also be able to meet me in that. Having enough gas in your tank to be able to show up, to have some extra leftover to be generous and then that could start a, a dialogue, right? On what kinds of support do we have? Well, what kind of support do we each have individually? What kind of support do we have us around, around us as a couple? You know, you can, you can literally map this stuff out on paper. You know, one of my teachers once said, you know, the quality of life is determined by how big is your system. And by system it just means, yeah, what are all the structures you have around you? What are all the networks you're part of socially, globally, culturally, you know, in those different ways. So you can actually map out. And the problem with a lot of codependent couples is their system's very small. The system is just me and you. So then if there's a problem in that two part system, half of the system isn't working. Right. It's a big deal. But as you make your system bigger and you have more relationships you're involved in at any given time, there's a lot more, there's a lot more bandwidth available. So you could just kind of map out as a couple, like how big is our system? And you know, what do you need the most from me to really get honest about that? Like what do you need the most from me? And then to have a conversation about our capacity, you know, to fill that for a partner and meet a partner in that. And if there might be some boundaries there of like, yeah, I can totally. You know, one of the one place I do remember this showing up sometimes would be I was freelancing like crazy at that time and I often had a lot of work and I would work late into the night and my partner would need to talk on the phone for like two and a half hours and I would be like getting tense because I knew I had so much to do and it was like my day was winding down and, and that was a boundary that I didn't quite know how to set. Then that like, hey, I love you and I want to care for you and I'm not available for a two and a half hour conversation right now. Doesn't mean I don't care about you and love you, but like I actually don't have that in me. And that, you know, was poison in our relationship because then I'd get resentful, I wouldn't be fully present, she would feel that, which would dysregulate her more, so then she would need even more support. And then I'd be like, I have no more support to give. And you know, that was one of our, our dances there. But I would start with what, you know, I'm talking to the men here in particular, like what are you committed to doing to take care of yourself first so you can be more in service of the relationship. And once you've owned that, like been got some clarity around that, then kind of start to explore with your partner where they might be willing to match you or meet you or mirror you in their own self care.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a good point. And it's interesting because I, I have noticed that a lot of the men who've gone through our program have reported that their spouse or their woman, if they're partnered, that their woman has noticed their growth and their woman has noticed how they have shifted and how they have opened and how they're showing up and they, and the woman has then said, I want to do something too. Like I'M seeing how much you're doing. I want to do something, too. That's not always the case. It's not always A equals B. But I have noticed a trend where when you do your work in a meaningful way, sometimes your partner will also lean in, in that way. So I love that as an intro. And I think it's. I think it's important to name here that. It's also. It's also important to include that this would have me feel more secure in our connection. Right. You having outside support would have me feel more secure in our connection because that's. I think, something that is often missing on the part of the person who's more dysregulated more of the time is the effect or the impact on their partner. They. I think sometimes it's. They're not seeing it or they're not aware of it. And so, you know, filling them in on it is important and hard. Like, I just. I want to say, I get it. It's a really hard thing to do. It's a really sensitive thing to do, especially if someone is, like, we're talking about not in a great place, right? If they're like, job hunting and they've been job hunting for a while, or if their parent is ill or if there's, you know, something going on with their friend or they're just, you know, going through life. Life is hard. Shit happens. It's. It's. It's a sensitive topic. So something I would offer is this is a good conversation to have when you're regulated, right? When you're both regulated. So if you, you know, guidance on this is go on a date or do something outside the house that is relaxing, that you both enjoy doing, and then have this conversation. And I really like what you said, Jason, about framing it in terms of, here's what I'm committed to and what are you committed to? And then I do think that it is appropriate, particularly if you're considering exiting the relationship. Right. Especially if you. If this is getting to the point where you're thinking of leaving, I do think it's. It's an act of generosity to say, I'm noticing that I'm needing something different in our relationship to feel secure. Are you open to hearing about that? Right. Yes. It's probably going to trigger her in some way, which is why you want to start at a more regulated place. But it's also really important. And if your partner was considering leaving you for a big reason, wouldn't you want to know about that? I would want to know. So I do think that it's, it's really hard and really generous. And this is sort of almost like a Part 2 to last week's episode about, you know, how do you ask for something different? This is a big version of that. This is a big version of, you know, I'm, I, I'm needing something to shift. I need you to have meaningful outside resources to go to. To go to. Because, you know, I think about that, what you were saying about she needed to be heard. It was a deep need of hers to be heard, which I share as well. I need to be heard about the things that are going on in my life. I have cultivated a pretty substantial friend circle so that I have people that are interested in what I'm going through and want to hear outside of my partner. So he is not the only person that I'm going to. In fact, he's not always the first person I'm going to. Honestly. I have a lot of other people that I'm working things out with. So it's, the solution is not don't have a two and a half hour conversation. It's I am available sometimes and I need to have other people to have that two and a half hour conversation with. So it's adding energy, adding support into the system. Not you should have fewer needs. The message is not you should be different or you should have fewer needs or you should have fewer emotions. That is not what we're talking about. We're talking about adding more to the equation, adding more to the interdependent web, adding more support in. That's really what we're saying. And you know, I, I have been someone who hasn't had a lot of money in the past, so I understand that things like Somatic Therapy take financial investment and like I said, I have invested heavily in that. You know, when a couple is looking at their finances, I think it's important to look at things like this as an investment is an investment in our health, this is an investment in our relationship. Right. Things like Somatic Therapy are an investment, not just a cost, frankly. So just another way of looking at that and framing that same thing for something like talk therapy. And I understand that it is expensive, it can get expensive, and, and life is hard. So I, I guess I just want to say I have a lot of compassion for those of you that are in this position and going through this particular pattern because it is really challenging and there isn't an easy solution. It's not. It's complex and it's important. It feels like a trend that we've seen repeatedly. So. And then the other thing I just wanted to highlight was you said something really important about you exited that relationship. Right. That that particular person didn't get outside support. She wasn't really managing and adding structures and you know, doing that work. And you left and then you attracted from a new level of consciousness a partner who already had some of those structures in place. And I think that's an important point to make. Just as we're, you know, if you're someone who's dating or as you're, as you're listening to this, it's not that your current partner didn't have some of the same issues. It's that she has more resources and more support and help in moving through those issues. Can you speak to that a little bit as a man? Because I remember man years ago saying, oh, my current girlfriend has all the same issues as my last one. She's just dealing with them.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I think, I mean, just a visual that's been coming to my mind is if you imagine we each kind of hold a ball of well being that's kind of consists of our needs. And if it's just me and you and I'm like, here, hold this, suddenly you're holding all of my well being. So if you trip or fall or need to go to the bathroom or like you could see, like that's a big issue. But as we build the system around us, different people in our lives get to hold different parts of us and suddenly that's distributed. And I think that's really, you know, what I experienced. And I think what you're speaking to here is it's not that life's any less stressful. We don't want anyone to have any less needs. Like you said, it's how is that being handled? How big is the system that's being held in? And when we have multiple practices and relationships and people to support us, suddenly all that burden isn't falling on one thing. You know, I, we're us dudes. We love, you know, engineering and schematics. And I always talk about this in terms of like an electrical circuit. You have a single circuit which is okay, all the energy has to flow through this single point, which means if this single point goes bad, all the light bulbs on the whole Christmas tree and go out. Right. The whole thing goes down. But when we have a parallel circuit, many of those can go down. But plenty of, there's other pathways that keep things lit up in our Our social network, our relationships, primari. Whether it's relationships to practices or people or our job or our health, those are those parallel circuits. So the more we have ourselves resourced in that sense, the more no one person has to hold all that. And I think that's a difference that many people feel is, oh, I'm happy to be with you when you're stressed out or hurting. When I can feel you have a network around you. It actually relaxes me because then it's like, oh, that your well being isn't solely falling on me. So I'm happy to give you my opinion and talk to you or share with you or yeah, resource you in some way because I know that I'm not the only avenue there, so there's not all that burden falling on me. And you know, we're primarily talking about this in terms of. Because we're speaking to men here a lot in terms of their partners. But it goes both ways. And there are plenty of women who we've talked to and known and worked with that because their man doesn't have any support around them. They can feel that of like, and this is a, you know, one of the sticky points I think we often see that. We often talk about, you know, the power of men leading with vulnerability. And then sometimes they do it and the woman's like, whoa. They kind of get freaked out. It's not the vulnerability often that's the problem. It's usually this part that a man doesn't have enough resource or support around him. So a woman's like, whoa, whoa. I don't know what to do with all that because, like, I, I literally, I can't handle that all for you. But that as men get resourced in community and connection and learning to take care of their nervous systems and just be, you know, pleasantly present in their bodies and not gripped or agitated or the different thing or just exhausted like so many men are, can be hard to connect as a woman. And there's plenty of women that, you know, have talked about this dynamic before, don't want to be a man's mother, right? Like, literally, I don't want to have to take care of you in that way. In terms of if you're not feeling good, the only way you can feel better is through your connection to me. However, if you have a lot of connect, this is the, the wild thing, right? If you have a lot of connection in your life and you have support, I totally want to shower you with love and praise and like, adoration because I love you. And I see hard you're working this, this goes both ways in partnerships. Why. Which is why it's such a big commitment here in a sense and why, you know, one of the ways you can assure that you'll attract a different partner moving forward or can start to change the dynamic in a current relationship is you take responsibility for your side first. Here's how I could get better at filling my bucket. So I'm not coming to you empty, I'm coming to you with resource to offer and give and, and by stepping into that first, you are either going to create a space for your partner to match you in, to step into with you, or you're going to be able to attract a new partner who's, who's really open to doing that.
Melanie Curtin: Yes. And I also want to shout out creativity as an outlet and a resource and a way of regulating that humans have used for centuries, basically since the beginning of time. So, you know, you mentioned pottery briefly. I would also throw out guitar, singing. Bringing energy through our voice, writing, cooking can be a form of creativity. But whenever we're generating something, we tend to be moving energy through our body. Moving energy through our body. And we talk about this sometimes in our program. The difference between regulating strategies that involve consumption versus creation. So consumption involves, you know, Netflix games on your phone, porn, food. So things that are coming into the system, things that you're consuming either visually or in your actual body versus creating. So again, cooking something interesting or new. Can you think of more? One of our guys takes bagpipes, for example. So music, dance, anything where you're being creative with your physical, physical body or writing, anything where you're creating. Often we forget that in modern life we have. Often, often. I see. And myself included, that's not a go to for us. And I just want to say that is a very powerful regulating strategy and one that you can bring in that is low cost. Right. Where you don't need to. It doesn't involve a practitioner. And it can be part of the suite of things that help you in this regard to a place to take all of that energy and you know, angst or whatever it is that you're going through. A place to take it and move it and work with it and massage it and have it be, have it be more malleable than sort of stuck in your system or oh my God, I have to, you know, have a two hour conversation with my partner in order to move this energy.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: For. With both partners to have some kind of creative outlet to metabolize Right. Another way to regulate is to metabolize. Right? Where you take that material and you transform it into something new. And that. So profound. And that's so healing.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And the great thing about art is that then it can serve someone else too. So when you take what you're going through and you create something like a poem or a piece of writing or. Or food now, it's, like, shareable. There's. There's something generative about I've taken my pain, I've metabolized it, I've created this song. And now other people hear the song, and it. It's cathartic for them. Right. They get something out of it. They're like, oh, man, I've been there. Like, I feel. I felt that lyric. So there's something just connecting, inherently connecting about art and creativity and moving energy in that way. So, yeah. As we start to wrap up here, if you resonated with this and you are sort of realizing, oh, I actually need more support in my life. I need more structures. I need more to be able to be regulated for my partner. And you're interested in working with us, you can go to evolutionary men slash, apply.
