280: How do I tell my partner I want something different? | Dear Men

Melanie Curtin: When you're sharing with someone about this, you can include I'm nervous to talk to you about this, or I've been avoiding bringing this up because I haven't known how it would go and because I don't want you to feel judged or whatever your truth is. Right. Hey, everyone. Before this episode begins, I just wanted to say a really heartfelt thank you. It was my birthday a few weeks ago, and I've been reflecting on my life, my world, what I'm up to. And I'm just. I'm really grateful for all of you, for my listeners and for all of my clients, for all of you men out there who've been brave and stepped into the work. You know, I really feel like I have a great life and I'm able to support people I respect and bring a lot of myself, my essence into the world. And that has not always been true for me in my past. You know, I have not always felt like my work was an expression and an extension of who I am. So I'm really, really grateful to all of you and all of you that send me notes and to Dearmen Podcastmail. I read all of them. I appreciate all of them. I'm listening. If there's anything that you are wanting more of or a topic that we haven't done that you're interested in, or just any comments or questions that you have, I'm here. I'm here. I'm listening. I love hearing from you. It brings me great joy to know that real people are listening to this and it's not just throwing something out into the void. So I appreciate that. And if you did want to go deeper than the podcast, you can always join our community, our Patreon community, which you can just find. Just Google Patreon. Dear Men podcast. We do a live Q A once a month with me. And of course, if you're interested in coaching, you can go to Dear Men or sorry, go to evolutionarymen. Apply. Sorry, Evolutionary Men apply. I got there in the end. But yeah, I just really wanted to say I'm deeply grateful. I was really nervous. I remember the week that I launched this podcast. I was so nervous and I didn't know how it was going to go, and I didn't know if anyone was going to take it seriously. And I just. I wasn't sure. And I feel like it's. It has flourished and that's because of you. That's because of you. So thank you for being a part of my life. Hi, everyone. Welcome back. Happy to have you back. Jason, you are such a fan favorite. Everyone loves your episodes.

Jason Lange: Glad to be here as always.

Melanie Curtin: So today we're talking about how to tell your partner that you want something different, which is tender. It's a tender subject and we're going to get into some personal stuff. So, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm looking forward to this. I think that this is a subject that a lot of people can relate to. Whether you're dating or you're in a long term committed relationship. It's challenging. It's fine when everything's going along swimmingly and you love what the other person's doing and they love what you're doing. And that's not when relationship is hard. That's not when dating is hard. It's when you are needing something else in order to feel valued or to feel loved or to feel safe. And there's something that, that needs to shift, especially on their part. That's when it's hard, that's when it's scary. So we're gonna talk about all of that and give you some practical tips for how to handle it and how to be skillful in this area and how to learn and grow in skills that you probably weren't taught in your family of origin. So. So yeah, I would love to hear just from you just a little bit about what you've noticed in terms of our clients and this pattern like what has come up for men around how do I tell my partner I want something different and then I have some thoughts to share as well.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say this is a, usually a pretty big edge for a lot of the guys we work with, which we often do work with. Kind of the typical nice guy, which has been talked a lot about on the show and defined by Dr. Robert Glover. And I consider myself one of those nice guys. And for nice guys, a lot of times we over index on meeting other people's needs. So kind of reaching across the aisle and helping make sure everyone around us is getting what they want or getting what they need. And for a lot of our guys, it can be much edgier and much more challenging for them to ask for what they need in a relationship or what they want or what they need more of. On a couple levels. One level, which we'll be talking about a lot today, of just how to actually bring that into the relationship and lead those conversations. And another level we also help guys with, of just being in your body enough to even identify what you want or what you need because it's kind of a Two step process. Right. You have to be able to locate it first and then you have to be able to express that to others in the relationship. And a lot of nice guys will often not be able to express that or have fear about expressing that and try to get it sideways through covert contracts or not get it and then start to get frustrated and resentful over time.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And something I would add to that is one of the reasons that we're doing this episode is because I noticed a pattern with a few of our guys where. And these were men in dating relationships or serious relationships, right? Dating, dating. We're casually dating or we're pretty seriously dating. But dating relationships not yet committed, where they were talking to us about things about the relationship but hadn't talked to their partner about that thing yet. And I'm going to give a couple of concrete examples to make this real. You know, one example was a man who was dating a woman with children. And when they talked on the phone in the evening, which was usually when they could connect because of work, her kids interrupted her a lot. And so he wasn't. Essentially what was happening was he wasn't feeling as connected to her or perhaps as important or valued as he wanted to feel because of the interruptions. And, and what was interesting, and this is what I want to bring up, is that he was kind of trying to evaluate should I stay in this relationship or should I not? And so independent outside of, without talking to her about things like that. Like that's not the only reason he was considering exiting the relationship, but it was a factor. Instead of kind of bringing up those things with her, he was trying to figure out on his own, should I stay or should I go? Should I leave the relationship or should I stick with the relationship? And I think a lot of us do this. I am definitely guilty of this. And I'll share more about my stories as well. But I have often tried to figure out on my own, am I happy with what this person can provide or should I leave? And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that per se. But what happens is I have left relationships because a person wasn't giving me what I needed, but I never told them why. I never gave that man an opportunity to adjust. And I really like the word adjust instead of the word change, Right. It's like, I don't, I don't feel comfortable asking someone to change for me, but if you could adjust for me, right? We don't. We can adjust the sales on a sailboat. And go in a slightly different direction that over time will be a drastically different direction. And we didn't change the sales. We adjusted the sales. So I think I just want to kind of highlight this point because I think it's a really big one, that it is an act of generosity and kindness to offer a partner an adjustment potential like that. That is an act of generosity. It's hard to do it. There are big reasons why we avoid doing it, myself included. So we're not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it's easy. I am saying I believe it is an act of generosity and ultimately an act of love. To say, here's an adjustment that I would love. This would have me feel more connected to you or safer with you, or fill in the blank. How does that sound? Right. And we can. We'll get into the nitty gritty of how to actually do this. But just as an example, and there's something I want to highlight here too, which is when you're sharing with someone about this, you can include, I'm nervous to talk to you about this, or I've been avoiding bringing this up because I haven't known how it would go and because I don't want you to feel judged or whatever your truth is. Right. And so I think we're going to get into more of this. But as an example, I think there is a way that before talking to the person, it's a good idea to workshop this with a coach, a mentor, a loved one, an emotionally attuned person. So not just any person, but an emotionally attuned person that you respect in order to help you not just phrase it, but get really clear on what is the experience you're wanting to have. Right? What. What is the desire underneath? Because if you just say, I don't like it when you're on the phone and your kids interrupt you, that's not informative of your state and what you're wanting. If you say, I want to feel deeply connected to you, I really like your attention. Like, your undivided attention has me feel important to you. It has me feel valued to you. That's a totally different place to start from than I don't like it when or it bothers me when. So even if. If that's how it's coming to you, right? If that's your emotional truth, you want to get more detailed and nuanced than that. And it can help talking to a loved one or a therapist or whoever about what is the need underneath? What is the need underneath. It's like what's happening for that man is likely he's noticing, he's irritated, he's annoyed in his body when the interruptions happen. It's like we were on this, you know, we were having this discussion. Now it's interrupted. I don't remember what I was saying. I don't remember what you were saying. I feel less connected to you and I feel annoyed and irritable. That's not. You don't need to share all of that. Right. But you do need to get to that need underneath. So I'm curious if. Do you have any comments on that? That part?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I just want to add one particular part around the, you know, workshopping the conversation. I think another important piece of that, particularly for sometimes the more sensitive or triggering ones are, whether it's with a coach, mentor or men's group, as I'll often talk about, is that's also an opportunity where you can first discharge the charge. So if you're coming in highly reactive or charged up about something and there's a lot of anger and a lot of frustration, it's not that there's anything wrong with that, but sometimes that can actually get in the way of the conversation itself when you're wanting to have an open, actual, constructive kind of conversation about making some adjustments. So finding people you can work with the charge with and discharge some of that frustration or anger or hurt. So it's, it's just moved through your body a little bit. So it's not the thing necessarily. Running the show is another key piece to the, the working with others beforehand, which can be so key, so clutch. And I, I do love this, the shift, this frame that I certainly didn't come up with. But yeah, if we're not careful about this stuff, it can come out as complaint. And the much more constructive thing you're inviting these listeners into is this idea that under every complaint is a desire. And it's more vulnerable to share our desires. Because if we share our desire and ask for what we want or need. Right. The fear is I could get rejected. You know, that's one of the big things they. What if they don't align to that? That might hurt. That might be uncomfortable. What if our needs don't line up? And that's kind of some of the hard work we'll get into here. And then just the other overall thing feels really key here, particularly for longer term relationships is, I mean, it's like a simple idea, but it's really, we have to teach our partners how to love us. And the way we're kind of taught relationships work through mainstream media and Hollywood and everything is just like, oh, they just magically knew how to attune to me and take care of me. And the truth is, no, like, we, we do a lot of work with men to get present and to get attuned and to be able to notice things. But for both sides of the street, both sides of the partnership, you have to actually help your partners learn how to love you. Like, you have to teach them, this is what I need. This is how you can support me. This is how you can touch me. This is how you can talk to me when I'm down. And the willingness to do that is really crucial, I think, for long term success. To kind of set our partners up to success. And like you said, when we don't and when instead we stew that, oh, they should know this or they should do different or they should notice, and then we start to make decisions about the relationship from there. We're actually not giving them the opportunity to fully connect with us and to. We're not giving them the opportunity to show up differently for us.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And this, I think what I noticed in that moment, I think in particular listening to that client describe the situation and really describe his hesitations around the relationship, like, should I stay in this relationship? I'm feeling really unsure. I felt a little protective of her because maybe because I'm a woman and could identify, but I felt like if you end this relationship and don't tell her, you don't give her a chance to adjust, you take away her choice, she doesn't have the opportunity to try to adjust. And you might be really important to her. You know, she might be willing to make some big adjustments to keep you in her life. We don't, we don't know that. And it reminded me a little bit of, I have an acting background. And in acting, one of the things that they talk about when you're casting is it's not whether an actor nails the part perfectly on the first try. It's how do they take direction? That's what it's called in theaters. How can they take direction? How do they take direction? If you say, okay, can you try it again but be a little bit less sort of harsh and aggressive and more inviting in your delivery. Some actors, like, really can't do that. Like, they kind of got the thing they're doing and that's sort of just the way they do it. But some actors can adjust and will adjust and are Deeply listening to direction. It's a little bit like that. I think in relationship is part of what. Part of what you want to be tracking for in relationship is how does this person take direction? Are they willing to take direction from me? And that has two parts. First, are you good at giving the direction? That's a big deal. That is a big part of what we're going to talk about today. But the other part is, are they willing to take direction? Are they willing to make adjustments? Some people aren't. Those are the people that you end the relationship with. Whether it's because they're incapable or they're unwilling doesn't really matter. Right. It's like if you're looking for an available partner and someone isn't available, they want to be.

Jason Lange: They want to be.

Melanie Curtin: They want to be, but they're not. They're still not. So that's still a no. But if, if they are making adjustments, if they are able to take direction, that's a big green flag. And if you never offer the adjustments you need, you can never evaluate whether they can adjust. You never offer the adjustments, you can never see whether they take them. And I think that's what a lot of us do is we just never offer. We never tell people how we want to be loved. We never offer what we're talking about. And we're going to get to the three main reasons why we don't, which I think we'll get to next. But do you have any comments on that part of, of what we just talked about?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it. Right. The. The ability to respond and adjust. I mean, right. Whether it's in a relationship, whether you're hiring somewhere. Right. This is an important thing for employees. It's like, not that you do everything right. It's that when we give you feedback, can you adjust? Can you? Course. Correct. That's a hugely valuable thing in a partnership. And the willingness for both partners to try. To me, that's like green flag territory. Not that everything has to be perfect. It's not that you always get what you want, but there's a willingness to try to meet each other and try to make adjustments for each other. And that's the trick. You can't. You don't know if that's true if you don't try. Right. If you don't ask, if you don't put it out there. And that's where I think sometimes it's easy for. It can be an easy to self limit yourself in relationships because, oh, I never get what I, I'm Never going to get what I want from this person. I can't do it. So I got, I need to leave or move on or just suffer quietly versus the actually bringing it out there and asking, giving them an opportunity to meet you, which again, it's more vulnerable because of all the reasons we'll get into. But it's also way more likely to get you what you want. You know, that's just the honest truth. And the thing is, what I've noticed too in this kind of thing is it starts to generate reciprocity too when a partner is generous and makes an adjustment for us. Certainly makes me way more willing to try to make adjustments for my partner too, because I can feel there's like a good faith effort that we're both trying to meet each other in terms of giving each other what we need.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great point. So I'm going to give a specific example and we're going to start to talk about why. Why this is hard. Why is it hard? Why is it hard to say? I really love your undivided attention. I would, I would love for an adjustment to be made around the kids interrupting you when we talk. There are four main reasons why this is hard and I'm going to actually share my personal example and use that as a foundation. So a main adjustment that I have needed in I would say most romantic partnerships is around attention. So I need, I need attention. I need to feel that my man is asking questions about my life and cares about things that are happening in my life and asks a follow up question and asks a follow up question and is engaged in what's happening for me in my world. I have found that it has happened at least twice, maybe more, where I've been connecting with a man. We're dating, it's going well, we have good sex, we have pretty good conversation. But I don't feel known or I don't feel this what I'm talking about. I'm not, I don't, I'm not getting the attention that I really, really want, that I'm craving. And so instead of asking for it, I have left the relationship. So I've stayed for a while, you know, passively seen if it's gotten better, like quote, unquote, is it, you know, has it gotten better? But I haven't actually taken any action towards getting that need met from the man that I'm with. Why, why didn't I ask for that? The number one reason I didn't ask for it is because I was ashamed of it. I was ashamed of needing attention. I thought that needing attention was selfish and wrong. So I craved it, I wanted it, I needed it. But I was also not really okay with talking about it, requesting it, making it known. It felt scary. I want to presence this one first because this is a hidden one that I think a lot of us. Again, it's really helpful to work with mentors, loved ones, emotionally attuned, aware, awake, people that know what they're talking about, because they can help you identify the need under the need. Right. So in my. In those relationships, I was aware that I wasn't getting what I needed, what I wanted. And what happened was there was just sort of this feeling of missingness. Like, I'm just. I'm not as bonded to you as I want to be. I don't, like, seem to care about you as much as you care about me. I'm a little confused as to why you're with me. Like, you know, it feels like you don't really know me. So, like, what are you doing with me? It must just be my body, which is probably not the case for either of the men I'm thinking about. I think they actually deeply cared about me, but I didn't feel deeply cared about, and I wasn't super aware of the way that I'm articulating it to you now. I couldn't have done that at the time. I didn't really know what it was that I needed, but I knew there was something, and I knew it was about questions. I'd gotten that far. I was like, I want you to ask me more questions. But I never said, I want you to ask me more questions. I just left. Right. And looking back, I feel pretty bad about that because I think that both of these men really would have wanted to show up for this. I think they really would have wanted to make an adjustment and keep me in their life. I really think that they would have. I think that they would have wanted to expend the energy on this. I don't think that they were checked out. I don't think they were like, oh, that's too much. Like, you know, you're asking too much. I don't. I don't think they would have done that. So the first main reason that this is hard is that if we hold shame about what we want or need, it's. It's going to be hard. That's the first reason. The second reason is we don't want the person to feel judged. So we'll go back to the. To the Client example. You know, part of the reason he had never brought this up with his, with his woman was he didn't want her to feel judged about her parenting style. He's like, I have a different style. She's got a different style. Everybody's style is fine. There's nothing wrong with her style of parenting. And you know, I'm really wanting that attention. I'm wanting that undivided attention. So a very top reason that we don't bring these adjustment things up is because we don't want the other person to feel bad or feel judged. Right. And again, I appreciated your point about we work with a lot of nice guys, we work with a lot of men who don't want women to feel uncomfortable or judged or ashamed or like they don't want their woman to feel bad. So they don't want her to, they don't want to hurt her feelings. And that's laudable, right? That's a good thing. That's, that's generally coming from a good place. And sometimes something else trumps that. Meaning if you're taking away her choice about you, if you're thinking of ending the relationship, for example, if you're, if you're thinking about taking away a choice, then it's not actually nice, it's not actually kind, it's not actually sparing her. Right. It's a, it's a different kind of hurt. It's not the kind of hurt you're thinking of, but it's a different kind of hurt. And then one of the other reasons that I, I myself have hesitated from actually communicating, clearly articulating this kind of thing, asking for an adjustment is I don't want the person to feel obligated. There's been a part of me that feels like, well, if I ask for this, if I say, like, I really need you to put more attention on me and ask me about like how I'm feeling, like how my heart is and really what's going on and then ask me a follow up question because I'm actually really talkative with my friends and I'm not that talkative with you. You know, like, I need more invitation in order to feel safe sharing and I really need to feel, I really need to share with you in order to feel close to you. I haven't wanted that to come across as you have to do this. You're now obligated to do this. This is a demand and not a request. And I think that a lot of us came from homes where our parents or caregivers gave us demands, they didn't give us requests. We weren't really allowed to say no. So it's really easy to kind of project that onto adults and, and, and think that if I make a request, they will hear it as a demand, they will hear it as a, you have to do this now or, or something bad will happen or I'll be mad at you or you know, something like that. So I think there's a little bit of a hurdle for a lot of us around trusting that our request is a request, trusting ourselves that it's a genuine request and trusting that they will be able to take it that way. And then if they don't, we'll be able to handle it like as a team, we'll be able to kind of work through it. Right. It's like part of why that's hard is because we've never really seen that role modeled. We don't, we don't see these, we don't see these adjustment conversations on tv. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is, it's hidden, it's behind the scenes, it's behind closed doors. We're trying to bring more light to it with things like this podcast because these are the relationship skills we were never taught. These were the relationship skills we never learned. And then the last reason this is hard is we are afraid of their response. So I am afraid that. I was afraid if I said, this is really awkward, I need to talk about something. I, I've realized that in order to feel close to you, I need to feel your attention. I need to feel attention from you and like really good questions about my life and then a follow up question and kind of attention to invite me out so that I can share. I'm afraid that the person is going to say, oh, that's selfish, right? That they're going to, they're going to shame me or blame me or they're going to say, or they're going to get defensive. Essentially they're going to get defensive. So they're going to say, well, why do you want that? Why do you need that? Like I've been, I've been doing that. Tell me a time I haven't been doing that. Tell what, What's a specific time, what's a time, etc. You get the idea. We are afraid that they will react defensively. And here's the truth. Sometimes they will. This is not an unfounded fear. Sometimes they'll react really well right away and everything. But sometimes they are going to have a response they are going to feel judged, they are going to feel guilty. They are going to feel, you know, they are going to have feelings. And that's part of why these conversations are complicated, because there is a reason we avoid them. It's true. Sometimes people respond really well the first time right away, and sometimes it's messy. And that's part of, I think, what we're going to get into, because just because it's messy doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. It's. It's complicated and it's. It's worth it. It's complicated and it's worth it because as we said before, you really want to kind of know how they respond there. Like, this is. It's really important for you to know how defensive they actually get. How much is your projection or your fear and how much is actually is them. And so, yeah, that was a lot. I'm gonna pause. I'd love to hear. Hear your thoughts or what. What else you would like to add to this part of, like, why is this so hard to do?

Jason Lange: Yeah. And, you know, it strikes me, I think we've actually done an episode before about receiving feedback and how that can be challenging for men. And I mean, that right there, I think, is part of it, is it's hard to receive feedback. So we map our experience onto other people's. Right. If it's hard for me to receive that, it's going to be hard for my partner to receive that. And like you said, it can be. It definitely can be. And people can get defensive and it's vulnerable. Right. Because that fear of their response thing, I think that's that other piece I was talking about, is when we really get clear about what we want or need and express it, what it actually creates an opportunity for is for them not to meet us in that. And that can mean there can be real fundamental change potentially happening in the relationship or the context of the relationship. Right. Versus, for, I think, a lot of nice guys. It's. It's. If there's a fear of being alone or I might not find someone else, it's like, I'm gonna hold it in and I'll just kind of bear it. Bear whatever it is. Because if I ever put it out there, then, oh, my God, what if she doesn't like that and she leaves me or something like that? It could. It can, in a sense, threaten the relationship. So sometimes we'll just tolerate these things and not put them out there in the ways we need in. I think the other key thing here Is I think there's a collapsing sometimes that makes these conversations harder between impact and intent. That if we think we share something with someone, they're going to assume we're saying, oh, you did that on purpose, or it's your intention to hurt me or neglect me. But it's often not the case. Right. In the generous place we can start to have these conversations with is, you know, it's not that there's anything wrong per se, with what you're doing. It's I want to share with you the impact it's having on me and what I need instead. Right. I think that's kind of that more open place we can get to that. It's really important to share impact with partners because for, you know, a lot of times we don't know, right? We don't know unless we share with our partner. They don't know unless we share it with them. And so this willingness to kind of share, hey, here's how this impacts me, and here's kind of a request I have. Can we work with that? Can we kind of try to meet each other in that? Because if we can, then like you said, it's the. The paradox here is it's often there's great motivations behind it. If I want to feel closer to you, I want to feel connected to you, I want to be able to be more all in with you. And here's part of what I've discovered. I kind of need, or I might need some adjustments around. And, you know, it does strike me, you know, you've covered this plenty in the podcast, but a very explicit place this shows up, you know, literally is in the bedroom and around sexuality and being able to share what we need or can our partner adjust the way they're connecting with us or whatever that might be. And that's super tender, right? It's super tender to get that feedback on both sides. But when you can work with that and move past it, so to speak, it opens up so much and so many possibilities that things can get a lot better and a lot richer fast by the willingness to have these conversations and deal with that fear of, yeah, what happens if I do really ask for what I need?

Melanie Curtin: I think there's also something about ruminating and trying to figure it out yourself. When I'm in my head trying to figure it out myself, I'm depriving myself of my teammate, the person I'm relating with. So I'll give you another example, and I think we're going to sort of start to get into, like, how do you have these conversations? So step one really is figure out what the need is. And that usually involves talking to someone else, a trusted person that is not the relationship partner, about the pattern, what you're noticing. Okay, so I'll give you a concrete example. I was dating a man, and I don't really drink alcohol anymore. It's not really something that I do. It's pretty rare, and I don't drink that much. And he did. And so. And there was an event coming up, and I knew that, you know, it was like. Like a wedding, right? It was like, okay, there's gonna be a lot of drinking. I kind of know already that this is going to be a thing. And. And in the past, I had felt, like, just a lot less connected to him when he's drinking and I'm not. I just feel less connected to him. Like, I don't, you know, I just. I can't feel him as much. I feel like I kind of need to caretake him. And then he's also hungover the next day, so there's an extension period of like. And then I also don't feel connected to the next day, etc. And so I think this is one of those classic examples of I felt really stuck. I felt really stuck. I was like, I'm noticing that I'm dreading this event coming up. It's stressing me out. I. I'm less sort of present and connected with him in now because I know it's coming up, and he could kind of sense, like, there was something, but he didn't know what it was. Right? It's like. And so. And this is another classic one of, like, I didn't want to. I didn't want him to feel judged. Like, I don't. I don't judge you for drinking. I'm not, you know, against it, like a religious thing or something that I'm, you know, I'm like, I don't have a problem with it. I just feel less connected to him when he does. So what I did was I had the conversation with him, and I included all of that. So I said, there's something that's been on my heart for a while, and I've been really nervous to talk to you about it because I haven't wanted you to feel judged. And so I felt really stuck. And here it is. I feel less connected to you when you drink. And we have this wedding coming up, and I know there's gonna be lots of alcohol. And I know, like, you. You know, you like to drink, and you like to, like, let loose sometimes. And I don't know what to do about this because I feel like if we. I like what I'm seeing in my head is a couple of solutions are, like, I could. I could just not go. I think it would be maybe great. You could just do your own thing and feel really free. Otherwise, like, I. I feel stuck because I want to feel connected to you, and I feel less connected to you when you're drinking, and I don't want you to feel judged. And so I've been really anxious about. Like. Like, do I say something? Do I not say something? I haven't known what to do about it. I'm. I'm saying all of that and offering it as an example, because the way he was able to meet me was, thanks for telling me. Like, I didn't. I didn't know why. It seemed like you weren't that excited about this thing we're doing, but that makes a lot of sense. I hadn't even really thought of that, to be honest. Like, I hadn't really crossed my mind as a part of what was happening, but it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for letting me know. I do really want you to be there. Like, I would. I. I don't think the solution is that you don't come. So, like, let's figure out something else. You know, maybe I can modulate. You know, I can just have some instead of, like, all the drinks all night. You know, how would that feel? And we kind of workshopped it, and we came to the. The resolution. Part of why I'm sharing that is that I think it's very common that we don't share with a partner. We don't share it with a person because we feel stuck. We don't know what the solution is. We don't know what it is. It's like, I don't want. You know, if we go back to the. The client example, he's like, I don't want the solution to be your kids can't interrupt you if they're used to interrupting you or. Or if it causes distress for your kids. Like, that's not what I'm asking for. So I'm. I'm over here busy trying to, like, fix the whole thing without my partner, without another brain, like, without another. Or. Or someone who's like, oh, you know what? Actually, I'm just throwing this out there, so it's completely. I made this up. But, like, no, it's cool. I. I mean, you know, my Neighbor has been saying, like, hey, anytime you want to bring the kids over for, like, tea and cookies, I would love to have them. Like, I could. I could probably do that most of the time or at least half the time. How does that sound? It's like, here's this other solution that dropped out of the sky because you involved your partner, you know, in an inviting and a loving way. You said, I'm stuck. I'm stuck here. I don't know what to do about this. I don't want you to feel judged, and I want to feel connected to you. I want. I want that bond or I need that. You know, we'll get to other examples that involve emotional safety, but it's like, I'm. Hey, partner, I'm stuck. I don't know where to go from here. But this is how I've been feeling, and this is what I'm needing. Do you have any ideas? So I think that there's this rumination pattern that a lot of us can fall into, and I think many, many, many of our clients have had that experience of trying to figure it out on their own without involving the other person. I'm curious if you've ever had that experience or you can speak to that pattern at all.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it definitely can tie into not wanting to make other people uncomfortable or not wanting to get it wrong. You know, is. I think another thing like, oh, if I just figure this out and deliver it perfectly, then it's going to be okay. Versus, what we're talking about here is actually kind of a messy process, right? It's collaborative, it's art. It's kind of a giving and receiving type thing. You know, this. This, what we're talking about actually here, too, is I just want to highlight, like, the healthiest version, the good part, the best part of a stage two relationship is being able to have these kinds of conversations and make requests and hear each other and reflect it back, make adjustments. Like, you know, we talk a lot about sometimes the problems with stage two, but it is super crucial to have a healthy, foundational stage two of being able to do these types of processing in any relationship that then you can build the other things upon. And I think what, you know, part of what I'm hearing here, and I just want to underline, is that, yeah, it is collaborative, and there's a huge difference between sharing a need and making a demand. And I think we can collapse those pretty easily that, oh, my God, if I share this, then I'm making a demand, and da, da, da, and sometimes people do unskillfully make demands like, this has to happen or else. And it's like, well, if I'm not aligned with that, that doesn't give us much room in the relationship. Versus, hey, I'm noticing I have this need. And like you said, what do you think? Like, well, how could we work this? How could we both win? You know, how could we use game theory here to make it a win win in some case where we're both kind of coming out better on the other side of this? And that takes practice, that takes skill, that takes willingness for a partner, that takes generosity, like we've talked about. And you can get better at it over time. I think that's the other thing we want to share here. But you can't get better at it if you don't actually try it. But there is, you know, to some extent, a learning curve in any relationship of you kind of have to be willing to get it out there and maybe it be messy or uncomfortable. But then oftentimes that's what brings the closeness because suddenly you're much more on the same page. There's like a, oh, well, at least I know where we're really at. Rather than wondering, like, yeah, is she about to. Does she not like me anymore? She doesn't want to go to this wedding. Versus, oh, okay, now I know what's going on under there, and I actually feel closer to her. And, and now in feeling closer to her, we can, we can work on it. I can think about how could I adjust? How could she adjust? How could we make this a fun experience for both of us? And this, this just, yeah, isn't something we're taught, you know, it's just not. And I think for a lot of nice guys in particular, either we're so afraid of asking for what we needed because we were shamed for it in the past, or we are just so heavily neglected, we don't even consider that it's an option to ask for something we need and that our partner is going to probably be very excited to meet us in that a lot of the times.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I was just remembering, too, something that has come up for a lot of our clients, especially our nice guy clients as they've started dating, is the need for alone time and the need for rest and rejuvenation and particularly our introverted clients. And I just want to say that you don't have to do it perfectly in the moment. So I'm thinking of, you know, a guy who hasn't, has had like, A pretty busy week. And his dating partner wants to get together on Friday evening to do something. And he says yes. And then he. Because he wants to please her, right? She wants to do this thing. He doesn't really, really want to do it, but he wants her to be happy. So he says yes. And then he notices he's starting to build some resentment. He doesn't really want to go. He's dreading it a little bit. He's like, I just. I really just want a night in. Even if you say yes, if you have said yes, you are still allowed to call the person up or leave them a voice note or a text. I'm more of a fan of calling her voice notes, but. And say, I'm feeling a little stuck. I said yes because I want you to be happy. And I really like doing things with you and I love spending time with you. And my truth is, I really need some time alone to rejuvenate and to. And to restore myself. I said yes. I want to honor my word. And I could really use a night to myself. How would it feel for. How would that feel for me to take that night off? And you could even include, like, I don't usually have this conversation. I usually just go and then maybe build resentment. And I don't want to do that with you. I want to do something different with you. I want to. I want to figure out how to meet my needs and your needs, and I've never figured that out before. This is all new for me. And then you let them respond. And in their response, you're going to learn a lot about who they are.

Jason Lange: Right.

Melanie Curtin: If they are trying to work with you. If they're like, oh, wow, thanks for letting me know. Yeah, I've done that too. Of kind of basically overextending and then resenting the person. You know, I've definitely. I'm familiar with that. I. I would really like to go with you. You know, this is like, kind of an important event and, like, I don't want you to feel resentful. Like, I really. I'd rather go by myself and I. Or I can take a friend or something. So I'm glad you told me because I don't. I don't want you to feel resentful, you know, so thanks for letting me know. That's going to be a green flag, right? You're gonna be like, oh, wow, like, I feel a lot better. I feel closer to this person. I feel like. I feel. If you're like, okay, sure. I guess that's Fine. That's not a green flag. If you feel worse after, if you feel less connected, if you don't feel like they're trying to work with you, you know, you might want to listen to the borderline personality disorder episode. Like, if you're. If you notice that when you do make requests, you're constantly getting shot down, or you feel a lot worse after, or you feel like there's weird negative energy in the space, and it's. You're constantly in the doghouse and it's never wor. Working. You're gonna. You're gonna want to listen to that episode. There's probably something else going on. But again, part of the reason that you want to get skillful at this is to see how they respond to you. To see how they respond to you. Yeah. So I. I'm curious if you can maybe give your personal example as well soon, because I think that's another. I think that's a great. It's along the lines of what we're saying. It's a little bit more simple, but yeah.

Jason Lange: And, you know, it strikes me before I share that to another kind of client example that came up and why the work we do is so fun is these muscles we build and we help men build in relationship, they then radiate out to other places. So we had one client, he was just sharing celebration with us a couple weeks ago of noticing that he would take vacations. And then just the. The. The way his job was oriented, if he took vacations, all the work he had to do, couldn't do while he was on vacation would stack up. So he would come back from a vacation, and it would be an incredibly stressful three weeks to the point where it was like, oh, I kind of don't want to take vacations anyway. He realized this, and he made a pretty clear request in his work environment of like, hey, I have some ideas of how we could structure things differently, and I could plan things ahead of time. And that way, because it's not working for me, take a vacation and come back and get burnt out in the two weeks that follow that. And he was shocked. I mean, he was shocked at how open they were to work with him on it because they wanted to keep him happy. He's a great worker. Right. He's given a lot to their organization, and so they were ecstatic to work with him around that. But what's key here is what was key about his insight and realization that that never would have happened if he didn't ask and make the Request. Right. They couldn't necessarily know that was going on for him. And that happens all the time in our intimate relationships as well. Not just our work relationships, but this ability to kind of name and notice these things and give whoever we're relating to an opportunity to meet us in that. That is actually what makes relationship work, which is so key. And so for me, it was. It was kind of like example. I'm going to give less of an acute one. It was more kind of like a noticing a pattern and just how my partner and I sometimes process things differently. I'm just much slower processor in terms of attuning to what's going on in my body, kind of getting in touch with my feelings, being able to share that in the moment. And I don't remember the exact context of the situation, but I was able to share with her. Like, yeah, sometimes I notice that you're wanting verbal connection when I'm still in the experience. And that actually pulls me out of my experience. And you know that I. Sometimes I just need more time. And she totally heard it and has made adjustments to notice when she wants to go there. And it's pretty clear I'm not quite there yet. And then. Then I get to have my experience, and then I'm much more excited to get to share with it. But there's just like a. A pace thing there that I got to be clear about. Like, I just need more time. Sometimes it's not that I don't want to connect, not that I don't want to share. Sometimes I'm just still in the thing, and it's hard for me to be in the thing and talking at the thing about the thing at the same time, so to speak. And so obviously it was a. It's delightful to have a partner who then, multiple times since then, has like, kind of in some sense, presence. Like, oh, yeah, I noticed I'm kind of doing that thing right, and I see that. I see what you're saying about that, and I'm willing to work with you. And it's not like then I'm not willing to work with her and try to bring more verbal connection when I. When I do have what I need. But there's just an acknowledgment of sometimes we kind of orient from things in a different way. And it was more relaxing for me, and it's more relaxing for her that we're now more on the same page.

Melanie Curtin: And I think there's something important that she didn't do, which is she didn't Shame you for that need. I think that's one of the reasons this is so hard for a lot of us is because like I said before, we judge ourselves or we shame our. Ourselves or we were ashamed in the past. So we are expecting her to say, well, why do you need that? That's stupid. Like, come on, like, what are you even talking about? This doesn't make any sense. Like, you should be able to talk about something right away. Obviously, I mean, I'm overstating it a bit, but I'm just making the point that that is a fear that we have, is that the person will negate our need, that they will negate our want, that we have either had that experience repeatedly as kids or we do it to ourselves. And we are afraid that our partner is going to mirror that or what's the word? Corroborate it. And you know what? Sometimes they will. If you, if you're in an unconscious partnership, if you're in a relationship where you. That you. Where you attracted a partner that wasn't really at the same level of consciousness as you or you were at a different level of consciousness back then, it's totally possible. It's possible. Just because we make a request doesn't mean someone will meet it. But if we make a request, see whether they can meet it and whether they want to meet it and whether they're in the game with us, and that's part of what we're sort of advocating for. There's something else that I wanted to say about. Oh, I. So one of the complicating factors here, and again, a shout out for working with mentors of some kind is something noticed in my sex research and something that's come up for. For a lot of our men, I would say, is that sometimes we have a need or a desire, a want for a way. We want our partner to show up and. And we don't know how to get them to do it. And I'm going to give you a specific example. I talk a lot about the heart cock matrix, right? How much heart energy a man has, how much energy he has. We work with a lot of men who are out of balance in one or the other. Often they have a lot of heart energy. They don't have as much of that energy, meaning like penetrative energy. Not just in sex, but in sex as well. But just drive motor conversations lead that. That energy. The way that shows up in the. In the complaints, right? Like what are the common complaints that you're hearing from your woman kind of Thing is, sometimes women will say things like, I need more dominance. I need. I need. I need to feel. Like, what does they say? I need more passion. So sometimes the words that. That women are using can feel confusing, right? Where it's like, I don't really know what that means. Like, I don't know how to give that to you, really. Like, I don't really get it. Like, I don't know. And what's happening is they're doing their best to say, express. Like, I need you to be in your power more. I need you to be in your power more. But most women aren't going to say that. They're not going to phrase it like that. They're not going to say, I need you to have more energy right there. They're phrasing it the best that they can in. In the. In their mom, you know, in the moment. And I'm thinking a particular, you know, a married man who. One of our clients who, yeah, his woman was saying things kind of like that, like, I need to feel taken. I need to feel claimed more. Like, I need. I need more from you. But she wasn't. She didn't necessarily have the solution, right? It was like, I need this from you, but I don't know how to tell you to do it or get it or, like, show up, right? So the energetic. Sometimes it can be challenging. And it's the same sometimes for men, right, where they're like, I need to feel like I win with you sometimes. Like, I need to. I need to feel like I can win. And the woman's like, I don't know what that means. Like, what does that mean? You know, like, how do I do that? Right? And it's like, really, what he's saying is, I need you to soften. I need to feel like you receive my offerings. I need to feel like you receive what I provide. I need to feel, you know, enough for you. And so, again, I think it's helpful to get the right mentors, whether that's couples counselors, or other people that can kind of help interpret what sometimes each of you is saying. Because I. I'm a huge advocate of what we're talking about and requesting adjustments. And sometimes it's hard, it's complicated, it's complex. What we're. What we're asking for. We're not exactly clear on what we're asking, how we need the person to adjust. We're just clear that we need adjustment. It's like, I need. I need to feel closer to you in some way. To really be invested in this relationship. And I don't know how you do that. Like, I don't know what. I don't know what you do on your side. But I know that I need an adjustment, you know, And I think that another sort of, I would say, complicated one that we hear a lot is a man saying some version of, like, I need you to be more regulated. Like, I need you to have a more regulated nervous system more of the time. And that's a really weird request to make. But the. So the way that it kind of sounds is like, it feels like you're down all the time. And I'm. And I'm extending myself and I'm providing a lot of emotional support. And it doesn't necessarily feel like it's working. Sort of like I'm giving a lot. I feel like I'm giving a lot, giving a lot, giving a lot. Not really getting a lot back. And you're still kind of. You still kind of in a bad place. Like, it's not. I don't feel like it's effective on top of everything else. And that's such a hard conversation to have. It's so hard to say that. It's hard, so hard to, you know, what kind of adjustment are you asking for? It's like, yeah, sometimes we have to ask for things and allow the person to solve their own problems or to make the right adjustment. And sometimes the ask is like, I need you to get support outside of me, right? Somatic therapy, Therapy, women's circle, all of the above. Like, I need you to have significant, meaningful, effective support for you, for you outside of me. And that's another, like, pretty tough conversation to have, but sometimes a necessary one.

Jason Lange: Yeah, that's a super important one. A theme that's come up a lot recently with a lot of men I've worked with is also just energy, right? That for both partners to have the energy to show up and be able to connect with each other. And sometimes we have to make requests around that or requests around work, life balance. These are really important things that we might not know the answer to, but we do have to kind of put it out there so our partners, again, can just be aware of what's going on and have an opportunity to shift and meet us in that way that oftentimes they want to. But just because of our family of origin and experiences we've had in the past, we'll often hold this stuff back or we'll try to get it sideways, like the nice guy in the COVID contract of like, well, she can't reject me if I don't ever actually ask for it. So I'll just keep doing X, which will make me totally justified in getting Y versus, hey, I actually need a little bit more of this. And I don't even necessarily have to do anything different to be worthy of that, you know, and that can be a big stretch for both partners, too. Of like, yeah, it's okay for me to ask for what I need or want and not have to justify it, so to speak.

Melanie Curtin: Exactly. I think that's. That's a great way of rephrasing what I am trying to communicate, which is sometimes we don't share what we need because we don't know how they can meet it. And so. And that is tough. That is tough. And that is another place where working with mentors can help because they can help you get at what you're needing underneath, get at, you know, what is the deeper thing that's happening, and. And then kind of maybe workshop the conversation. I want to go back to that, you know, I need you to be in your power thing. Because if you are a man listening to that, and that feels familiar to you, you know, it feels like I. If you're looking back and you're thinking, I can see how some women were trying to tell me that, or they left a relationship with me and they couldn't really tell me why. There was. It was like, oh, you're a really great guy. Just. I'm not feeling it, you know, I'm just. I'm not feeling that spark or that connection that I'm really wanting. You know, if you. If you're getting that a lot, it could be this part about, like, you need to be in your power more, and you need that energy, and that is a lot of what we specialize in. So I think that's. I guess what I would say is that can shift. Right. We have seen countless men that have gone through our program move from pretty passive, not really in their power, to standing up straight in their power, able to go after what they want, not just in relationship, but in work and other things. Like you're saying. So it works. It's not like I'm just this way and they're just this way. No, we can all shift and adjust and grow, and it works. It's effective. So, yeah, as we start to wrap up here, I just wanted to come back to that point that you. That you said about we have to teach our partners how to love us. And I think that that has been A major spiritual lesson for me in relationship is, oh shit. I have to actually speak up kind of like regularly about what I'm needing. And that forces me, forces me to face my own needs and shame around needs. So I know we don't really have time to delve into that completely, but I guess I just wanted to re present that. Teaching someone how to love us well is confronting. It's conf. It's inherently confronting. It's not easy. It's. It's. It's a deep spiritual path. Any comments about that before we start to wrap?

Jason Lange: It's where the real work starts, I think, in relationships. But it's also the foundation for creating something that's durable. Right. I think that that has resilience and that is sustainable and that can grow and change with partners. And you know, it's funny, I was just on a call with a. A guy earlier today and the other thing you just said around the power of. Yeah, oftentimes with nice guys, feminine partners are wanting more of that. And one of the ways they can feel that is by you knowing what you want and asking for it. Like, Right. Like it's kind of a. It's a funny thing. But if you know what you want and you ask for it, that's how they feel your power. A lot of times that's how other people can feel. Oh, he's in his power because he knows what he wants and he's asking for it. And a lot of times it can actually be quite sexy. Right. And then again, like I said, it also then creates a culture in the relationship where our partner can feel more comfortable asking for what they want and what they need. Because it's like, oh yeah, we can deal with this, we can work with this. So it ends up being a win win a lot of the times.

Melanie Curtin: Yes, I love that. So if you are, if you do resonate with that and you are interested in working with us, you can go to Evolutionary Men, slash apply. And if you are interested in being a patron of the podcast, you can just Google Patreon Dear Men Podcast and join. If you join at a 10amonth level or more, you will get access to our live Q and A's each month month and help keep this podcast ad free and accessible to everyone. We'll catch you next time.