The pickup artist world promises connection but actually teaches men to avoid it entirely. That's the counterintuitive insight I explored with Melanie Curtin on her show Dear Men, diving deep into my own history with that scene and what it ultimately revealed about authentic relating. We unpacked how I first discovered the pickup community in my mid-20s in Boulder, the sense of brotherhood it provided, and why something about it never quite sat right with me.
We talked about the paradox at the heart of pickup. If you can't naturally attune to a woman, that's exactly why you'd need a system to run. Which means the people creating those systems probably aren't great at attunement either. I shared how I discovered authentic relating as the antidote to scripted routines, learning to share what's actually happening in my body in real time rather than running memorized lines.
The big shift for me came from realizing that when you're in true alignment with yourself, when you have access to your head, heart, and cock as we say, and all three energy centers are online and working together, you don't need pickup. You just get to be in the moment and actually connect. That's when you start magnetizing people who are also being authentic, which creates way deeper relationships.
We also dove into how most men are literally hunched over keyboards and phones all day, collapsing the very part of our bodies that allows us to feel ourselves and attune to others. Opening up that center channel through posture, breath, and embodiment work is crucial for presence.
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Jason Lange: If I can't attune to a woman, that's why I would need a system, a process to run. Right. And so in some ways, the people creating those systems probably aren't going to know how to attune to a woman.
Melanie Curtin: Hi, guys. Welcome to another episode of Dear Men. This one I am back with my good friend Jason, who's been on several times because he's one of my favorites. And today we're talking about pick up the pickup artist scene and how a lot of times it can be an intro into deeper work. So just to say up front, this episode is not about shaming it or making it wrong, it's just sort of discussing it because it seems to be a pretty common entry point for a lot of men into the work of relating and becoming awesome with women. So welcome back to the podcast.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Excited to be here.
Melanie Curtin: And we'll go into more of what you do and our program and everything at the end. Yeah. So I would love to hear because you do have some experience with the pickup scene. And you know the title of this is the Day I Outgrew Pickup. So spoiler alert, he outgrew pickup. But it was there at the beginning of the story, or at least involved in the story. So what was your experience with the pickup scene and with the whole sort of that part of your life?
Jason Lange: Yeah, it was my mid-20s. I moved to Boulder, Colorado and quickly met a tribe of guys that were very much in kind of the transformational world. And you know, my jam. And that summer is when Neil Strauss released the Game, which spread like, I don't even know who introduced it into our pack. But we all read it and we all read it very fast.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I mean, it became the Game is a best selling book. It was like, I think it was the top of the New York Times list. It obviously struck a chord with a ton of people.
Jason Lange: Yeah, it was a great book about, you know, Neil at the time was kind of a nerdy guy, cut off from a large part of himself. And he got introduced to this world as part of his journalistic career. And then it became quickly very personal for him and the work he did. And that was kind of my first eye opening exposure to, oh my God, this idea of pickup artistry and techniques. And me and this crew of guys read it voraciously that summer and then started kind of exploring the other people online. And there were countless systems and PDFs.
Melanie Curtin: And video games of other pickup artists. Other pickup artists, like Mystery.
Jason Lange: Mystery was a big one. David d' Angelo Ross Jeffries is one of the first.
Melanie Curtin: And they each had their own PDFs, like, how to attract women. How to escalate is another one of the words we use a lot.
Jason Lange: So a big part of that world, though, is practicing is like, actually going out into the field, as they call it, and running routines like a magician.
Melanie Curtin: Or a robot or a football player or a football player running a play.
Jason Lange: And so, yeah, we'd be going out in downtown Boulder, nervous and trying to run routines and pick up women.
Melanie Curtin: How did that go? I'm so curious.
Jason Lange: For some of us, it went better than others. For myself, it never really clicked. It never really worked. In many, many ways, shapes and forms. It never felt authentic for me. But in some ways, it was as it is for many men, exposure to men's work for me.
Melanie Curtin: Can you say more about that?
Jason Lange: For. For a lot of guys, one of the only things painful enough to make us realize I want to change is, oh, my God, there's a beautiful woman, and I don't know how to interact with her.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And now I'll, oh, there she goes. I'll never see her again. And that is very, you know, for myself and for many men we work with. Ask most men that, you know, didn't have immediate success with women, and they can list probably three or four very specific moments in their life where they felt a lot of attraction for someone, or I felt a lot of attraction for someone who didn't approach them. And it stays. It stays in your system.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Big what if?
Melanie Curtin: Right? Because I think what you just said was so striking, which is, oh, and there she goes. Like, I didn't take action. I'm sort of in a freeze state. I'm still over here sort of in a freeze state. But I'm really. I am actually really interested in her, and I've stayed so long in a free state that now she has left.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: And there's such a sense of. At least in my experience with the clients I've worked with, there's such a sense of what could have been. Like, there's such a sense of loss and grief around. Like, I didn't. I didn't do anything. I felt frozen. And then there's a lot of shame that goes along with that, I would imagine.
Jason Lange: Tons, Tons, tons of shame. Yeah. You know, it's a. It's a hard moment to think back upon. I'm like, wow, I could have, and I didn't, and I'll never know that person.
Melanie Curtin: I couldn't and I didn't, and I'LL never.
Jason Lange: Yeah, most likely.
Melanie Curtin: Do you feel like pickup helped with that at all for you or your crew?
Jason Lange: I would say what I got out of it was some camaraderie I think is a big piece of it that a lot of guys don't know they're looking for until they get into the scene. Because a lot of those pick up a lot of the pickup world. There are books and PDFs, but it really all drives towards seminars and in person things where you're around other men with shared goal, positive or negative. However you look at it of like trying to go out and pick up women. Pick up women, move through the world differently and support each other in that process. Like, literally, that's. They. They very much embraced the wingman term from the military. And so you wing each other as you go out, right? You go out to support your brother as he's trying to score with some chicken, as they would think of it. So that piece was very true. And I think in some sense, just even opening and creating a space to talk about how hard it is of like, oh, wait, it's hard for me. I don't know what to do. And sometimes it doesn't work. And then suddenly there's, you know, there were probably hundreds of thousands of messages across different message boards of a world just opening up of people being able to talk about how much they struggled with women.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's actually a really good point. Because the things that stay hidden and stay in the shadows that we don't talk about don't tend to get better. So at least there's a way that I feel like the pickup industry becomes a place, you know, because if you do something like if you Google how to get better with girls, like, which a lot of guys Google, and they're still googling it. Because I'm asking, I'm asking them, this is the entree, this is who shows up is the pickup artist world. How to get better with girls. Like, they've got a lock on that search phrase and term. And it seems like, you know, there are some really manipulative elements that we can like, discuss. But on the bright side, at least like you said, it's like, oh, there's a way to do this. There's at least some info out there. There are people that have their attention on it. I can buy a PDF, I can buy a book, I can take a course. It's not like this thing that I have to stay helpless around. And then the other thing, like you said, that I have appreciated about the Scene is. It does seem to emphasize action. There is a lot of, like, get out there, get out there. Like, go to the bar. Try this. Go do it. Like, get it in your body. Try some things instead of just book learning.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: Because I think a lot of that is, you know, at least for nice guys. Like, they don't need more book learning. That's not gonna help them grow. But actually going out and testing it out and trying things, you know, like, when you were doing it, when you said you didn't have a lot of success with women when you were doing it, did you still get anything out of going out and being out trying things?
Jason Lange: There's always the sense of it's not quite accomplishment, but like, oh, I went for it. Like, learning to tune into that more than, like, did it work or did it not work? There was somebody, and I talked to them. Yeah, that's simple. And I think for a lot of guys, we like to have plans. And so the idea that, oh, I can learn these systems so I can have a plan, so I can go into the situation and feel more comfortable about it sometimes, even though I don't think that ultimately works, it's enough to get you over the resistance of moving across the room.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, exactly. So you're saying that a lot of pickup artists, when you study their work, you'll feel like you have a plan.
Jason Lange: I think that's what a lot of the. What I got out of it and a lot of men got out of it. Right. It's like, literally, what is the mathematics of this? Oh, here's a routine. I run this, she says this, I say this, I do the doo doo, and it'll work, you know, and ultimately there's less vulnerability in that, but it still gets people moving. And, you know, I would say I have worked with clients who were actually in relationships but had a lot of social anxiety, and they went to pick up artists who took them out into the world and would literally just push them into rooms to, like, talk to people.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And in a sense, it worked. Like, after an hour of that, something would happen and they'd have a conversation and feel good about it. In another sense, I think it's totally a shotgun approach that developmentally could re. Traumatize people as much as anything else. But that action piece, I think, is absolutely one of the gifts of that movement of like, yeah, try something, experiment. Go out and try it and get information.
Melanie Curtin: Get out into the field and stretch.
Jason Lange: Try new things. Get into your. Get out of your comfort zone. So there was definitely A lot of that with me. A lot of that.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: But I think for me, I quickly discovered it never felt authentic. Right.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Thinking about what I'm about to say was not something I needed as a man who lived mostly in his head.
Melanie Curtin: Right, right. And so what. What happened that summer? I mean, at what point did you realize that you had outgrown that?
Jason Lange: Yeah, we started to lose interest. I think we all started to lose interest. I mean, in one sense, it was the feeling of, like, I don't actually like being out at bars. Like, it was a big shift for me of, like, this realization that, like, sometimes I'd be going out and I didn't actually want to be there. It was a huge shift for me of, like, wow, I don't want to be here right now. I'm gonna go home. And, like, what a crazy experience that was. And that as all that was going on, I mean, the blessed. The blessed part of the community I was in was we were very anchored in transformation and consciousness. So we were meditators and doing all this stuff. And I think that work started working even more than the pickup work.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And so my energy just started naturally going back towards my own healing more than anything else.
Melanie Curtin: And when you say was working, do you mean in general, it was helping your life get better? And did that include women or that it was just helping with women?
Jason Lange: It was getting a little better. And, yeah, things got a little better with women. There was a little more freedom for me around that and less constriction around it. And just ultimately, you know, the more time, like. Like, the game's a pretty unique thing because it was written by someone who was outside of the community, who had powerful experiences in it, and then, you know, began teaching in his own right. But even him, within, like, two or three years, his energy was shifting around it out of, like, the pickup world. And I think myself definitely there was just a saturation of. You hit the eighth site, and you can just energetically feel, like, what's wrapped up in that work.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Tell me more about that. Because what you mean is, like, by the eighth website of these kinds.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Like, going and getting PDFs and reading about systems and hearing people's field reports. It's just like, oh, do I ultimately once, is this the type of success I want?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And tell me what is the type of success that they were, you know.
Jason Lange: The metric for almost all of those pickup communities at the time. Now, I don't know at all. Modern times, for sure, because I'm not in that world anymore. But the metric was like, basically a win is, can I go out one night and within a single night sleep with a woman and if I want to never talk to her again?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Like just that simple.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Just boom.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: To do that. And so, you know, it was like a belt kind of contest. Like success was sleeping with a woman.
Melanie Curtin: Yes. So the. Right.
Jason Lange: And it was success was not a relationship or depth.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's right. I think that's important to point out is that sort of the vibe or the vibration around a lot of pickup artist stuff is can you go out, make the first move, get the phone number, escalate, which means like kiss her or like move it forward sexually. Keep escalating and escalate until you have sex. And then you can either decide whether you want to keep in touch with her or not. But that's the, like, the drive is very much like, this is what it's about. Go out, hunt the deer. Like kill the deer. Like, you know, either take the deer home or don't like. But there's a very, I don't know, single minded, it feels to me, single mindedness to pick up as an industry. This is what it's about rather than. And then there's all of these other options. And like, you know, for example, as a woman, like sensitivity to her, like, does she actually want to do that? Like, because some pickup stuff is rapey. Like, let's just put it in the space. It's true. Some pickup stuff is rapey. And there's not a lot of, like, here's how to be attuned. Here's what trauma looks like in a woman when she's in a freeze response. She's not necessarily gonna be able to give you a yes, consent thing. And here's what to do, which is don't have sex with her in that moment. Right? Like, wait and actually be attuned. There's. I mean, I haven't read a lot of pickup stuff that has anything about attunement. Like, it seems like no. It seems like no. And it seems like a lot of it is sort of like directed at men who might not feel confident about women in the first place. And so it's almost like just driving them to become the alpha patriarch. Like, or not patriarch, but in a patriarchy, like become the alpha dude. Right. And they use that word a lot. They use alpha and beta all the time. It's all over their material. But it seems to me like there is a huge missing element in. In it, which is attunement. It's not about that. They don't even talk about it. They're not even really aware of it. They're just like, hunt the deer, Hunt the deer. Hunt the deer. Hunt the deer. Which means have sex with her.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: And like, get notches on your bedpost. And it's not really like, about her experience. And her experience is often missing in there. Did you. When you were like exploring that world, did you. Was that part of what you meant about like, feeling the vibe of the sights?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think for me it was a pretty clear feeling early on that there's like an objectification and scientific method ness to it that depersonalizes the whole experience in a lot of ways. That just doesn't feel great. Just does not feel great. And like, what's the desired outcome? Know, starting to read materials and look at things like, quickly, like, ooh, no. And that the realization of. Yeah. The kind of paradox is if I can't attune to a woman, that's why I would need a system, a process to run. Right. And so in some ways, the people creating those systems probably aren't going to know how to attune to a woman. All right? So there's like a vibration that it even has. And then just the absurdity of, you know, it was around soon after that time that I got exposed to authentic relating and like real communication and intimacy and vulnerability and stuff. And just the insanity of like, the frame I always explain to people in the work I do is, yeah, the pickup world is kind of like someone sat around, looked at guys who were having success with women and looked at what they did, what behaviors they did, and then wrote those behaviors down and then said, if you do these behaviors, it'll lead to X, which is a total outside in approach to meeting someone and dating someone. And the truth is, it kind of works. It kind of works.
Melanie Curtin: It kind of works for a while, I think.
Jason Lange: It kind of works for a while. And then the other thing is, I think it kind of works on a certain type of woman, truth be told.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: Like not to judge anyone that goes to every man or woman that goes to a bar. But there's like a vibration of self awareness. Like self awareness is the antidote to pick up, in my sense. Right. Like a very self aware, attuned woman, I think can sniff that shit miles away, miles away. And we'll throw it right in your face and name what you're doing.
Melanie Curtin: Like, well, let's talk about this for a second because I think that's one of the things. And I wouldn't say I'm an expert in pickup. I've looked at the material, especially since a lot of my guys have come from that. I would say like a lot of my clients are pickup refugees. They're like, this is not what I want to do, but I want to do something and get better with women. And I'm like, I can help with that. But from one, one of the things I remember from it is called negging.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: Which is giving a woman a negative comment. So it's sort of a barb and then, and, and then sort of like a, it's like a backhanded compliment basically. Like, and I'm trying to think of a good example. Can you think of a good example of negging a neg?
Jason Lange: Like that's, that's a really tight shirt.
Melanie Curtin: Okay. Yes. Like, okay, that's kind of, kind of rude actually. And then the idea behind negging is to get the woman to qualify herself to you. Right? So you're, you're sort of, you're giving her a backhanded compliment and then hoping that she's going to try to like become like, want to prove herself to you in some way. And yeah, yes, to speak to what you said, I believe that a lower self esteem woman will respond to that and they will want to qualify themselves and they will want to sort of get their value back or prove that they are worthy. But a high self esteem woman is gonna be like, fuck you. They're not gonna wanna relate with you anymore. And I can't say for sure whether I've been negged or whatever. Like someone was like, this is probably pickup and I'm running a thing. But I've definitely been in circumstances where I'm like, okay, well I'm not relating with you anymore. Like, I am done with this conversation now. Like, this doesn't feel good. I don't feel good, I don't feel valued, I don't feel seen and I don't feel like, like I remember relating with certain guys where I was like, I feel like there's something else going on under the surface here and I don't know exactly what it is, but it doesn't feel good. So I'm done with you now. And so it's sort of to your point, like, yeah, sure, it's gonna sort of work kind of some of the time. And who is it gonna work on? And is that the vibe you want to be putting out right into the world and kind of creating more of.
Jason Lange: Most of the guys I work with, in their heart of hearts, don't actually want to be with a woman. It would work on. Right. Because the guys I tend to work with, like, want depth and actually want relationships, but they've had just a hard time with it. And so pickup's one of the first places they go and they get into that world and they kind of get sucked in. And I would say the gift of the pickup is just the movement. It's the action. It's like getting the ball rolling. Like, okay, I can move now. I can move now. Yeah, but, like, beyond that, I never found it to really have much to offer of, like. And then what?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, sort of the depth piece that you just.
Jason Lange: When your script runs out, right. Because there's only so many lines and things to do and only so many times you can use that to get her back to your apartment or whatever that might be. Like, then there's real relating that cannot work off a script. And I think that's where in that world you could read the message boards and totally, you know, people would get to the point where it'd be like a real relationship and they would have no idea what they were doing.
Melanie Curtin: That's such a good point. Even in the. In the word pickup. Like, if you think about it in, like, a game. Game context, like, okay, you picked up the ball, but, like, but now where are you going? Where are you running the ball? Like, what is the. What's the rest of the play? And it really just sort of doesn't help with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, you know, I think we both get. Get guys reaching out to us that have come from that world. So I just want to name. This is an email I got a couple months ago, and I get ones like this regularly. So this person says, melanie, I'm looking for someone who can guide me on how to talk to women, connect with them, and date them. I invested time and money in pickup artist techniques and courses that I later realized were very insincere, deceiving, and fake. I don't want to get women because I don't see them as trophies that you get. I also don't want to approach women, like, as if they were some prey versus predator. I just want to hang out with them.
Jason Lange: Especially.
Melanie Curtin: I don't want to quote pickup women as if they were some fruit. These words I know pickup guys use all the time, so I avoid them. I just want to figure out a strategy to connect with women that aligns with my values. And that's the. That's the that's the end of the email. But that last part is what I often hear, which is it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel right. Like a lot of the guys that I end up working with, they're like, I did the pickup thing and it sort of kind of worked sometimes, but it just didn't. It just never felt like me. Like, it never felt like. You said authentic. Congruent is the word.
Jason Lange: Like it's incongruent. When it's incongruent, that's the other thing. If you're running a pickup routine and you're being incongruent, meaning you're running a routine that is not you and it works on a woman you've attracted, someone who's attracted to that version of you, or that it's like pulling someone into a different vibration than you actually are. And then you have to deal with the reality of that later on.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Versus like being yourself from the beginning. Anyone that's going to respond to that, oh, it turns out they actually like you. That's simple.
Melanie Curtin: And everything is easier. Yeah. So I'm curious, in your experience, it sounds like you found authentic relating and the authentic relating tribe, which is a lot about how to talk to people and interact with them and bring your full self to that encounter, did you find that that then impacted your success with women?
Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. That work and some of the deeper transformational work I was in at the time, I think, you know, I probably didn't have this as a conscious thought at that time, but looking back, one of the shift points would have been, oh, there's no point in doing this if I don't feel comfortable in my.
Melanie Curtin: Own skin and doing this. You mean approaching women?
Jason Lange: Yeah, like running a routine. Even if I do the routine perfectly, if I'm like not okay with who's here running it, there's gonna be something off no matter what. So what do I need to do to just be more okay with myself? And that's where I think the authentic relating work really came in. In terms of just being able to be honest about the places I don't feel, did not feel okay with myself and communicate that. And in some sense, real authentic relating is totally the opposite of pickup in that pickup is routines and pre planned and flowcharts and authentic relating is what's happening right here and now in this moment. That's it. Just coming back to that over and over and being willing to share that in the relational field.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And that could mean, like, I remember. So I just want to Give Decker and Brian a shout out for being pioneers in the authentic relating thing. I remember Decker telling a story once about crossing. Crossing a bar or something to talk to a woman and arriving and saying to her, I really thought I would come up with something by now, but I didn't. And that was true. That was the truth in the moment. And she laughed and everybody laughed at the table. And what I'm hearing, part of you saying is what Brian said at the time, which was he would try to do the same things as Decker. Like, he would try to say the same things and get none of the results. And was finally like, what the fuck? Like, what the fuck is Decker doing that I'm not doing to get the women that he's getting? I don't get it. Like, what am I missing? What's going on? And that was basically the origin of the Authentic man program was Brian saying, what the fuck is Decker doing that's working so well that I'm not doing?
Jason Lange: And not having the beauty of that program, the Authentic man program. And their insight was, oh, we shouldn't be studying what they're doing on the outside. It's what is going. Is the perspective shift of how is it Decker orients to himself and his life and how do I bring my authentic version of that in my life out? Because. Right, the pickup. Yeah, totally. The pickup version of that would be a guy would see Decker do that and then write that line down and then go across the room and try to deliver it to another woman.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: And sometimes it might work, you know, truth. Like if he really kind of owned it and smiled, but most of the times it probably wouldn't because it wasn't real for them. It's not an actual thing happening in the moment. And like, we talk about so much, particularly women who have higher self esteem that have just done more work and are more self aware. They're tuning forks and they can feel. Oh, does he really mean that?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And they can also feel like. Because a lot of, you know, what you and I do in our work with men is, are you breathing? Like, are you breathing like, I've had men come up to me who are breathing shallowly and they're only up, you know, chest up. And I get anxious. It doesn't matter what he's. The words he's saying to me now, I feel anxious in my body and I feel less likely to want to go out with him because I don't inherently want to feel anxious. I want to feel more relaxed, not more anxious. So, yeah, there Was definitely a lot around Decker's presence. Like, Decker is a very present guy and has cultivated presence and can speak to. And very attuned. Very attuned to men and women are walking up. There's a level of relaxation in the system presence, which is also, by the way, part of why he was able to laugh at himself in that moment and say, like, I really thought I would come up with something by now. I mean, I really thought that would happen. And he wasn't like, oh, God, I really thought that I would come up with something right now. And you know what I mean? Like, you can hear it, like, in the voice, in the physiology. Like, that would maybe not have worked. She might have been like, okay, well, it's cool, but maybe like, I'm here with my girlfriends instead of like, that was really funny. Like, now we're sharing a moment and, like, it's just different. So. Yeah. The inner work that you point to, I think is sort of the missing part of pickup. That is, it's like the meat of what is actually needed. It's what women crave. It's the difference between her. Her wanting to see you again and her not wanting to see you again. Because that's the other thing about pickup.
Jason Lange: Right.
Melanie Curtin: Is like, it sort of breaks down when it's like, okay, I had sex with her, but I want to see her again. I don't really know what to do now. Like, I don't have no roadmap. It's like, it sort of leads you to the cliff. And then it's like, hey, bye.
Jason Lange: Yeah, Once you have to actually start relating and, you know, the more time. I think. Well, in the best case scenario, I'd say the more. More time you spend with someone, the less it's to keep them as a purely objective person in your mind. Right. Like, oh, my God, she has a house and she's stressed about, you know, like, you can't necessarily get that in a week. Always if you're just seeing her at a bar and then taking her home. But as you move towards a relationship, it's like, oh, this is a whole person who has feelings. And I think that's when a lot of guys run away.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Too. It's like, ah, totally.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Can't deal with that or don't know how to.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Because that piece is. Or at least especially back then, was not taught.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: At all.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So in terms of your. Your own journey and then into becoming a coach, what did you start finding in terms of what actually helped you cultivate that presence that we were just talking about.
Jason Lange: Yeah, this is really, you know, it's such a loaded term. But doing my work, as we say. And so that was a combination of joining a men's group. Like I've talked about therapy, going to the gym, doing physical embodiment practices, and really just getting to know myself and particularly going into old wounding and just exploring it and being with it and realizing and getting a clear sense of my story and turning much deeper inwards and getting. You know, there's that great word. I think it's interoception. Interoception. I can't ever say it, but developing the awareness of what's happening in my body and being able to name emotions, sensations, because the second I was able to start doing that, that's a game changer when it comes to relating.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Because just sharing the information, you know, we talk about sharing self talk is one of the greatest things you can do in authentic relating. Oh, hey, I'm noticing I'm feeling this.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I'm noticing I'm feeling. I'm feeling a little nervous right now.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: Or I'm feeling. Yeah, I'm feeling excited.
Jason Lange: Or I'm feeling very excited to see you. And I'm just feeling very turned on. And so as that came online, you know, one of the. One of the things I talk to all the guys we work with about is when you're in congruence with yourself and when you're in alignment and in integrity and as a man, you have access to your head, heart and cock, as we say. And all three of those energy centers are online and working. You don't need pickup. You don't need pickup. Yeah, you don't. You just get to be in the moment and connect and feel and attune. You don't need routines, you don't need pre plans, you don't need any of that. Like, you get to just be.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And when you just be authentically, you tend to magnetize people who are also authentically being themselves, which leads to greater relationships, I find as well.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think that's really important. What you said about interrospection or whatever, we'll have to like, look that up. But it does feel to me like a lot of men are really cut off from how they're actually feeling. And I'm not just talking about emotions, but sensations. Like, I'm feeling, you know, a churning in my stomach, I'm feeling hot in my throat. I'm feeling any, like, body sensations and emotions, which I think is a Result of partly of the culture. The culture doesn't teach men really how to feel. And in fact, it teaches them to not feel. And, you know, obviously, like, we can't change all of American culture, but I feel like that's part of the problem with relationships is that when that is brought into relationships, then the women are like, I want to feel you more. And the men are like, I don't know what that means. Like, because a lot of the guys that I'll work with, I'm like, I can't feel you from, like, any chest down. They're like, I don't. What does that mean? I'm standing right here. Like, and then we again, we work on the breath, like, bringing the breath all the way down. And like, oh, I can feel my stomach softening and all of that stuff, which sounds, I think could sound like kind of boring or esoteric or strange or like, what does this have to do with relating with women? But like you said, it's intimately related because women are tuning forks and we are feeling a man as he's approaching us. I mean, I can feel a present grounded guy from across the bar and want to have sex with him before he's even, like, looked my way.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: You know, and that. And that is, in addition to being cool, it's also, like, a lot less work for men, right? I mean, yes, of course. It's important, very important to be able to take action, cross the room, Go, you know, go get her. And as you cultivate this inner stillness and you work on your shit, like you were saying, a lot of your journey was working on your own inner stuff and moving through it as you do that, she's gonna be attracted to you, such that when you go over, she's gonna want to hang out with you, right? So there's like an A and a B. Like, as you're cultivating it, you are magnetizing. You're magnetizing people. And yes, it is important to be able to go and approach, but it also doesn't. It doesn't matter whether you can go and approach if you have a super anxious system, you know what I mean? That's gonna repel. So it's like, okay, you can approach, but then it'll repel.
Jason Lange: And so it's totally the. This is so. This is so huge. I mean, it's so big. And it's so much of our work, I think, as men is not only do we have the, like, cultural conditioning of masculinity kind of fighting against that, that, yeah, you're Rewarded based on achievement, regardless of how you feel. Like in sports. And.
Melanie Curtin: Well said. Yeah.
Jason Lange: The military. Right. It's like your body is disposable. It's boom. Do whatever it takes. And that's, you know, particularly in American culture. Like, it's the epitome of the great man who. Nothing stopped him.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: You know, then you see his body's crumbling or you've ruined 20 relationships or whatever. But so not only do we have that, but then we have the reality of our physiology today, in which, like, we've talked about. And when you talk about getting your guys out of their head, it's literally in from about the neck down to your leg sacrum, which is, you know, in the yogic traditions, what they call the center channel. You could also call it kind of in a technical way, your spine, where all the nerves come together, where your vagal nerve runs. And it's literally our tuning fork for our bodily sensations and those around us. And how 90% of people sit and stand these days is at a computer.
Melanie Curtin: Mm.
Jason Lange: With the keyboard, which rolls your shoulders forward so it starts to collapse your center column, and then you hunch, and your glutes turn off. And literally, we're hunching in on the piece of ourselves that is the most sensitive to feeling. And then we're walking around with our phones like this, which, again, just kind of collapses you in. And so a huge part of the work for any man wanting to become more present in the world is opening up your body.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Like, literally. Tight hips.
Melanie Curtin: Yep.
Jason Lange: Tight hips. I battle it still. Tight hips. Tight sex, as one of my teachers says.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And shoulders.
Melanie Curtin: Shoulders.
Jason Lange: Learning to pull your shoulders back. I mean, like, when you talk about presence, like, three or four simple posture adjustments in front of. With, you know, with. With us and a client in front of a woman.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And it's like physics.
Melanie Curtin: Oh, yeah.
Jason Lange: Like, you can be. Hey, breathe here, move up here.
Melanie Curtin: Yep.
Jason Lange: And then suddenly the woman's like, oh, yes.
Melanie Curtin: I can't tell you how many workshops I've been. Been in where I'm like, I feel like half of my job is just pulling a man's shoulders back and. And having him breathe all the way down, relax his stomach a little bit, and be on the ground. Like, oh, now I can feel you. Now I would notice you. Now I feel safer with you. That's another one. Because a lot of the men that I work with, they really don't want women to feel unsafe. They don't want women to feel uncomfortable. They don't want women to feel anxious or awkward around them. And so they're trying to manage themselves, like almost like contort themselves to avoid that. When actually the trick is like breathing and relaxing. Like as, as the man breathes and relaxes, I automatically feel more comfortable, safer, all of those other things. So it's almost like maybe the opposite of what he's thinking or like he's trying to help. Right. He's trying to not make me feel uncomfortable. So he's up in his head being like, oh God, did I say the wrong thing? Right. And then. And as I say that, even my, like my, my shoulders are hunching like I'm contracting because I'm, I'm all. Because I'm worried, basically because I'm worried there's energy to it instead of like just breathing and trusting that that's, that's.
Jason Lange: The work, that's the piece that pick up. Right. Doesn't teach and can't. It's not equipped to teach in a lot of ways. And it's this, you know, again, the whole point of like opening this center channel, the center column we were talking about, or a feeling body is that that's where the interoception comes from. So we can, the more open our system is to feeling, the more we can feel what's going on in ourselves. And the more that we feel what's going on in ourselves, the easier that is to share with others. And as we've talked about before, and certainly something I experienced, one of the most mind blowing experiences I had as a man was sharing something I was feeling that I didn't necessarily think was a positive thing, like, oh, I'm nervous or I'm anxious or feeling a little jealous about this. And the very fact that I had awareness of what was going on in my system and presenced it in real time, that is what was sexy to the woman. That's what was sexy versus, as you've shared, the being around a man getting very clear he's feeling something and he doesn't even know it.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Danger. Danger Will Robinson. Right? Like, how could you feel safe with that?
Melanie Curtin: Right? Yes. Because what you're describing is, and I think this happens a lot, where the woman is aware of what the man is feeling and he's not aware of it. That doesn't feel safe. I've definitely. I feel like I felt like that often in past relationships where I, I feel that he's angry or upset and he isn't aware of that. And there, that disconnect doesn't feel safe. Like When I'm like, what's wrong? Or what's happening? He's like, nothing. Everything's fine. Like, I'm like, okay, I think I'm gonna leave the room now. Cause, like, I don't. This just. The dissonance is just very jarring. And. And that's kind of. You know, there's. There's advanced levels that happen when you're in a relationship of awareness and feeling and all of that stuff. But I can definitely say that the. The basics, you know, around pick up and getting into a relationship, for example, does start with it. It starts with. With the body awareness and all the things that we're talking about. And one of my favorite stories from our. From one of the guys in our program is we had this discussion about him approaching women, and he had this sort of like, oh, well, of course I don't approach. You know, I saw this girl, but of course I didn't go up to her. And I stopped him. Was like, what is. I'm sorry, can we go back to the part where you said, of course you didn't go talk to her? And we sort of explored it, and then a couple weeks later, and basically what he said was like, well, I don't want to bother someone, or almost like, well, I've never done that. I don't really do that. And I was like, whoa, Would it be like if you just did it, you know, and. And. And breathed and, like, got grounded and then just went over and said, hi, my name is blank. Just. Just that. And what's so awesome is, you know, in our program, a lot of what we do is this stuff of cultivating presence so that his nervous system is a little more relaxed at a baseline, just wandering around the world. So a couple weeks later, he was like, yeah, I went to an event and there was a girl, and then all of a sudden I was talking to her. And he, like, couldn't really remember the, like. He couldn't really remember the part of, like, going over. And I. To me, that was a huge win because it was like, yeah, because it meant he was present and in his body. If he was in his head, he'd remember, like, all the, like, oh, well, I thought about it, and then I was like, well, maybe I should go to talk to her at the punch bowl, because that'll be better. And she'll be like, but he just did it. It was like, I'm noticing the energy, I'm noticing the pole I'm going over. He was like, the next thing I knew, we Were talking, and I think he got her number. I don't remember the end of the story, but I just remember thinking, like, and this is why I do what I do. Like, I'm like, big win, like, huge win in, like, not very much time, right?
Jason Lange: Absolutely.
Melanie Curtin: That's what's exciting about the body stuff to me. It's like a hack. Like, this just works better and it's faster and. Yeah. So anything else you want to add to that particular.
Jason Lange: Thought? Just the second piece of that, which kind of follows what we were just saying, is that same center column that allows you to become aware of yourself is also how you get to better attune to your partner, where you can start to feel what's going on for her and start to presence that. And that's a massively powerful tool.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Significant and deep relationships. So it serves both ways. It serves you being able to better communicate what's going on for you yourself. And then it's what allows you to. You know, when your woman walks in the house and you just notice she's holding her shoulder in a certain way to feel, oh, my God, like, are you okay?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And then boom. You know, it opens the floodgates or something.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a really good point, that.
Jason Lange: Awareness to, like, just feel your partner.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And my experience when that happens is that I feel seen. Like, I feel noticed. I feel seen. And the fact that I feel seen has me feel much safer to share. When I'm the one coming to him and he hasn't noticed, I feel less safe. I feel less open, like, less able to share everything that's on my mind or in my heart. Whereas if he's like, hey, I noticed something's going on. What's up? I'm like, oh, there's like a space for me to step into. Like, it's more. It just feels safer. So again, like, that. That. That word, which I feel like in my experience, a lot of men really want their women to feel safe.
Jason Lange: Massively.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Is. Yeah. It's like a. A big part of that. That again, like you said, like, isn't normally taught and certainly isn't taught in the pickup scene.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally not.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And the last thing I'll just want to say is what I love about this podcast is the reality is, you know, I think part of the crazy concoction of all this and how it's some men's first exposure to men's work was like, this stuff exploded at the same time as the Internet. And it turns out a Lot of the guys that create the Internet or were good at Internet things weren't necessarily good at relating. It's just the truth. Like, the skill that allows you to sit at a computer for eight hours in your head, in a cognitive space is different from the skill that allows you to look at someone and know how they're feeling.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: So that, like, has a certain energetic field to it that attracted a certain type of person who was teaching it with certain needs and other people who are struggling with it. But it's also those guys are really good at what they do in terms of Internet marketing. So it actually has, like, a presence on the Internet.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: That I don't know if it'll ever go away. But what is exciting, I think, about a lot of the guys we meet is it's so clear that they're outgrowing it. Meaning, oh, I came to it. I got a little something, and that wasn't deep enough, and I wanted something deeper.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Which is where, like, you. Your podcast. And I feel like this whole wave that's happening right now of getting very real and authentic about the whole process is so much healthier and so much more robust.
Melanie Curtin: And that's where our coaching program comes in, too, because a lot of the guys that come in are like, I'm looking for something that can help me with women and is in alignment with my values. Like, I want both. I don't want to just find something aligned with my values and not get better with women. Like, I really want that, and I want it to feel right for me, and I want to feel good about my teachers. I want to feel like they care and like they care about both people in the equation, not just notches on the bedpost. So, real quick, before we hear more about what you're up to, I just also want to give Neil Strauss a shout out because he has grown tremendously. And one of his latest books is called the An Uncomfortable Book About Relationships. And it's excellent. I couldn't recommend it more. I think he basically comes to the same thing that you did, which is, like, it's about the deep inner work. And he really describes a lot of his deep inner work and gets really vulnerable. And I think in a leadership capacity, I was very impressed at the sort of transformation between the same dude who wrote the game wrote this book that is like, yeah, I had to go to fucking therapy. And, like, it was hard, and it was. And all this shit came up, and then, you know. But the depth of relationships after that is tremendous.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: So I really recommend the book. I'll drop in the show notes and it's amazing.
Jason Lange: This is so nerdy. But he's like the Peter Benchley of pickup. And Peter Benchley was the guy who wrote Jaws.
Melanie Curtin: Uh huh.
Jason Lange: And then when Jaws got written, people started killing a lot, a lot of sharks. A lot, a lot of sharks. And he became one of the biggest advocates for sharks in the end, spending the rest of his life trying to outdo the damage he caused by creating Jaws, which is just so there's just a piece of. I really appreciate Neil around that in some sense because he was such a big voice of that movement. The fact that he has spoken to more depth around it is a really, really powerful thing I think he chose to do.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, good point. Wow, I didn't know that about Peter Benchley.
Jason Lange: I like sharks.
Melanie Curtin: Shark Week coming up anyway. Yeah. So tell us a little more about what you're up to and because you've got a couple things going besides just our program.
Jason Lange: Yes. So there's a couple different things I offer to men. The first is I do live weekends a couple times a year. These are called my shadow Breakthrough weekends. And when Mel and I are talking about like going deep and doing your work, this is the kind of opportunity for that where we create a very tight container. And I've been trained in a lot of different facilitation skills and been on a pretty deep journey myself. And really, more than anything else, it's us practicing, really feeling what's most present in your system and just being with.
Melanie Curtin: It and helping it move if it's stuck.
Jason Lange: And oftentimes as soon as we're with it, it starts to move and we can express it and we can let that energy kind of move. So a lot of times, not always, but a lot of times it's pretty significantly related to early developmental traumas and behaviors and family of origin stuff. So that is a very powerful, powerful tool and very deeply connecting as well. If you've never had the experience of going deep with a tribe of men in a weekend, that itself can be a game changer. In addition to this kind of moving and liberating of energy that's oftentimes from the past, that is preventing us from being in the present.
Melanie Curtin: Yep, exactly. And preventing us from having success with women.
Jason Lange: Yeah. So there's a lot of, a lot of somatic work as we talk about in terms of body sensation and breath work and exploring what's true. So I have one of those coming up in September.
Melanie Curtin: And then what are the dates for that.
Jason Lange: That's September 15th and 16th.
Melanie Curtin: Okay. We'll drop this in the show notes too for everybody.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Awesome. And then for guys that are maybe in a relationship or just focus more on their careers right now or just kind of a more general sense of wanting something to move in their life, I'm launching an eight week kind of virtual men's group which is just gonna. We're gonna meet every Tuesday night and that's gonna be focused on really whatever breakthrough you want to make in your life right now, you know, and you.
Melanie Curtin: Can be anywhere in the country or in the world because I know I have international listeners. So if you have been wanting to do something around this, that would be a good entree.
Jason Lange: And that'll give you the experience of deep group work virtually with guys and some one on one coaching with me and. Yeah, quite powerful. And then kind of the signature piece, you know, our highest end offering is what you and I run together, which is our 10 week transformation virtual kind of group program for men called Pillars of Presence. And that's for you guys out there that are single or maybe just new in a relationship and there's still some uncertainty there that are just ready to rewire your systems and get the deep connections with women that you deserve.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And that includes interaction with women.
Jason Lange: Yes.
Melanie Curtin: So there's interaction with women in the program and I'm on the calls. So there's more sort of feminine engagement on that one.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And that's what Mel and I really specialize in, is that inside out transformation. We want to get you lined up on the inside. So by the end of the program you can go out and just be yourself and be able to connect with the people you feel most connect or called to connect with.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And have those deep, satisfying dates and relationships and experiences you want.
Melanie Curtin: Well said. Well said. So if you're interested in any of that, you can just email me dearmen podcastmail.com and then I can connect you with Jason. I think that's it. Is there anything else that you feel called to share before we wrap?
Jason Lange: That feels great.
Melanie Curtin: That wraps up another episode of Dear Men. Thank you for listening. If you want to reach out, we would love to hear from you. We're on Instagram and Twitter. Earmen Podcast. That's Earmen Podcast or Facebook. We have a group, Dear Men podcast. We also have an email address, dearmen podcastmail.com if you want to join the Big Sexy Data Set, the community of people who regularly respond to the surveys that we talk about on this podcast. Just email us at that address dearmen podcastmail.com and we will set you up. Have a sexy day.
