28 . Every Man Needs a Circle – Jason Lange | The Sane and Miraculous

Host: Welcome to December, folks. It's a late welcome to December. If you haven't noticed, we're in December. December of 2025. There's a cliche these days that I encounter every year around this time, typically towards the end of November, where people start saying, wait, it's December, it's the end of November. Like, I will schedule with someone into December. And we're like, wait, we're talking about December? And there's something really fun about every time I do it every time. It's such a repetitive cliche. I've done it for years now. There's something. It's honest. It's like, wait, what? The year is over. We're going into this complicated home stretch of the end of the year in American culture that has this weird false dry run holiday, which we've just done, like this micro Christmas that we do a month before Christmas to kind of warm up. And then we do the real Christmas that has like an extra layer of gifts and much more culture around it. Like much more movies, much more music, stuff like that. You know, it's interesting. I have a friend who says Thanksgiving is his favorite holiday, which I agree with. I think Thanksgiving is the best holiday in the calendar in America because, uh, it is. It somehow has resisted commercialization. You can't really spend that much money on Thanksgiving, you know, other than the food that's. And the travel. Right. Like, those are the things. And instead you. All you're doing is expressing gratitude to your loved ones and eating some food and that's it. And there aren't even movies. It's so weird. Like, there's like a thousand Christmas movies mean more and there's like a handful. What? Think of a Thanksgiving movie right now. I have one. I can think of one Thanksgiving movie. I'm sure there's. There are more. And Americans. Native. Native Americans. That's not what I meant. But people who have Native Americans maybe less than other people know about Thanksgiving movies. I don't know. But anyway, people who have lived in America their whole lives, whether they be native in the sense that that word typically means or not, you guys probably know some more than. Does Charlie Brown have a Thanksgiving movie? Maybe. Anyway, the one I'm thinking of. Are you thinking of one? I'm thinking of one. I'm gonna say it. We watched it last year for the first time, from beginning to end is Planes, Trains and Automobiles. And that is a Thanksgiving movie. And it's really great. It's actually really, really good. I like it a lot. I mean, John Hughes is great. I. John Hughes has made some absolute bangers this year. We watched Uncle Buck. So we've done two John Hughes movies starring John Candy on Thanksgiving in a row. Uncle Buck is not as strong. I think Uncle Buck is the weakest John Hughes movie I've seen. Is that true? I think so. Plane trains in automobiles. It's very silly. And then it's very, very good. So, anyway, we're talking about Thanksgiving, December 10th, but it's weird. It's weird because you have this half Christmas. You, like, everything kind of grinds to a halt for a couple days while you kind of do that, and then you have this long weekend, and then you kind of get back into gear and you have to get back to work and, like, do it again for another three weeks. And then everything grinds to a halt again. And I don't know. I don't believe in it. Why don't we have Thanksgiving in June? How about that? That's my pitch, America. What if we did Thanksgiving in June?

Jason Lange: Sure.

Host: There are historical reasons not to. Anyway. What? All of that. It's just weird. The end of the year is coming, and then we have this thing where we go, oh, my God, I can't believe the end of the year is here, and I'm doing it here with you. Oh, my God, I can't believe the end of the year is here, and I like doing it. I'm gonna keep doing it every year until I don't like doing it anymore. So anyway, if you booking a call with me and we're looking at. It's too late now, because now we're in December. We've been in December for, like, a week, so. So it's no longer exciting to say, oh, my God, can you believe it's December? Because we've just, like, we're over it now. It's just like, okay, home stretch, home stretch, everybody. We're gonna finish the year strong. It's gonna be good. I believe in you. I'm proud of you. Let's do this. Today, my guest today. I actually wish him the very last thing that happens. Spoiler alert. But it's not a bad spoiler. The very last thing that happens in the conversation is I wish him a happy Thanksgiving, which I think this demonstrates an admirable turnaround time from recording the podcast to producing it. You guys might not know if you've not produced podcasts, but. Well, I don't know. I don't know what other people are doing, but that's fast for me. I'll Just say that. That's fast for me. We talked right before Thanksgiving and it's coming out a couple weeks later. What, three weeks later? Is that right? Anyway, here we are. Let me tell you about my guest. My guest is Jason Lange. Jason is a coach, a. A leader of men's work, and the host of the Evolutionary Men podcast. And he is an old school integral guy in my world. He's not first generation integral, I would say, but he's my generation integral. I've known about him for years, just through mutual friends and the scene, but we've not really met until recently, now that he is back in Colorado and we got together and we had this conversation. It's a lot about. It's about integral and evolution in the grandest sense possible. It's also about men and men's work and the value of men's work. It just felt great. It felt like Jason is a great guy. And it felt to me like coming back to my roots, this is the stuff that I grew up on. This is the stuff that I not grew up on, but, like, this was my transformational kind of initiation was. Was these cultures, both integral philosophy and men's work, and in fact, the intersection of those two things. So it's just fair. And then podcasts, which I also love, and here we are in a podcast. So it's just. He's a man after my own heart. He's doing really great work in the world and we have a great conversation. So stick around for that. Just gonna give you a couple of little bits and pieces before then, and then we'll do it. Oh, first of all, so we talk about integral. I've yet to still. I know I'm always kind of rolling my eyes about this or complaining about this. I've still yet to really do the Integral podcast. Look out for that. That's coming. I'm going to. I'm going to do that sooner than later. There'll be the breakdown. The, like, what is integral? What are you talking about? What is this thing? Why are you always talking about it? Why are we talking about Ken? What is this thing? Blah, blah, blah. So I'm going to do that, but I haven't done that yet. In the meantime, just very briefly, you know, I like to do this. It's probably annoying. But before we go into the conversation, I just want to clarify. There's just two things that I say. And I say I'll do a pressy in the intro, which is what I'm now doing. I talk about orange and green. In the context of integral. And basically I say something about how 15 years ago it felt like we were exiting orange and now it feels like we're waiting our way knee deep in the hellscape of super saturated green. So what? Orange. So these are developmental stages of culture and this is something that integral talks about. I'm not going to unpack all of that. But basically culture moves in these large developmental waves. This is one of the things that integral theory says. And so one of them is orange, which is all about democracy and rationality and individuality. And then the next one is green, which is about community and connection and being kind of flowy and being connected with nature and seeing lots of different perspectives as being valid, equally valid, or like nobody has the truth. Basically, orange says there's one truth and we can figure it out. And then green says nobody has the truth. There are many truths. They're all equally valid. And so that's. Those are kind of two competing worldviews or these stages of cultural development. And that's what I'm talking about. When I say orange and green. That's what I'm talking about. Most of you know about that, but some of you might not. And once I do the big integral breakdown, you'll have way more context for that. So look out for that. But it's not today. Next on the docket in the recording, I talk about a T shirt that I want to make that is now in the works. I talk about the merch store and I haven't done the merch store, but it's something I want to do. The merch store is now in the works. So I'm saying that in some ways to keep me accountable. I also have other structures which are definitely going to keep me accountable to do that. But there will be a merch store sooner than later. In. In. Yeah, in. Within the next couple months there will be a merch store which will likely have the T shirt that I talked about on the recording today. So look out for that. That's exciting. I'm very excited about it. It's a ridiculous project. It's not as smart from a business point of view. It's much more smart and useful things that I could be spending my time in Eng on, but this thing has been bugging me for years and years and I just like need to make it. So I'm making it. That's that ways that you can support. As always, thanks so much for listening. That's already great. If you let me know you listened and tell me something you liked or something you thought about or get in a fight about something. That's great. I always love that. You can also share the episode with friends. That's amazing. Share it on social media, send it directly to someone that you think will like it. Just always super helpful. There's. If you go to Substack, which will be linked in the description here, you can get a physical link to the episode that you can send to people. It's hosted on Substack, so please do that. That's always really helpful. If you want to subscribe at the paid level, you get some bonuses. Notably, I do debriefs of these interviews where I just kind of, you know, say some stuff in a bit more detail, unpack some of what we talked about and things like that. So, yeah, that's always awesome. And you can review the podcast on itunes, on Spotify, wherever you listen to the podcast, there's some place to review it, give it a five star review and say something nice about it. That's super, super helpful. So thank you so much. All right, that is all the talking I'm going to do now. I bring you Jason Language. Hello, Jason Lange, welcome to the show.

Jason Lange: Yeah, excited to be here.

Host: Happy to have you on. You're a name that I've heard many people I know well speak about for years and years and years. We finally got to meet up recently in sunny Boulder, Colorado, back when it was still sunny a couple months ago. And yeah, I'm excited to have you on the show. I like to start with your, like, superhero origin story. So in the, in the transformational world, like how, how did you get here? How did you get to doing what you're doing. What. What happened that like opened your eyes?

Jason Lange: Yeah, sure. I would say there's two things that kind of entwined to get me here. And one was just, you know, what I experienced growing up so white guy, raised in middle class, lower middle class suburbs of Chicago and had, you know, most of my basic security needs met. But one thing that became very clear, you know, certainly in retrospect, but the family I grew up in just was not connected physically, emotionally. It was a house of kind of neglect. People just living, living together, but not much connective tissue in between and at a very deep nervous system level that really set me on a trajectory of not understanding how to connect and belong initially with women, but also with other men. And the pain of that, that kind of shut down that neglect, you know, left me like, I think a lot of men just not knowing how to feel, feeling A little disconnected, feeling depressed. And, you know, where I can really trace it all to is a little bit of Shakti that came through. I was born in 80, so I was growing up right during the alternative revolution of music and lives. Lightning Crashes, man, It was the song that came on the radio and just impacted me, like, oh, wow. Went straight to the heart in the sense of, you know, I didn't really have the languaging for it at the time, but it was music that, when I listened to it, I felt. I just felt deep, deep feeling. And that got me on a trajectory, you know, got really into music. But eventually, for all kinds of crazy reasons, the lead singer of that was a student of Adi Da got influenced by Ken Wilber. And that was kind of the chain that brought me to fly out to California for my first year of college. And that was before phones and all that. So I had to grab a book at a bookstore. It was in a. Probably. I don't even know, but guess it would have been a Barnes and Nobles back in the suburbs in the day. And there was that big balding head staring at me off a bookshelf from Brief History of Everything. Grabbed it. And that was kind of. It just. That totally completely changed the trajectory of my life. But the reason I even got there was.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Lightning Crashes, as often played on Chicago's Q101 alternative hits.

Host: So I. So I don't know this song. The song is called Lightning Crashes. The band is live. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I'm gonna look that up. I've not. I don't know that one. That's so cool. You were so. You. You were. You were so moved by that music. It kind of. That you. You followed the. The teacher.

Jason Lange: You got super into the band. Right? And, you know, I was listening to all their albums. I was learning about the lead singer. So when he. He had basically like a proto blog way back in the day and was just publishing his influences. So I started reading, you know, the. His teacher's influences, who in a lot of ways has deeply influenced many teachers in this space and was kind of the epitome of the. The crazy wisdom gurus of the.

Host: Oh, yeah.

Jason Lange: You know, 60s, 70s and 80s. And, you know, deeply troubled in many ways, but also transmitting something at the same time. You know, so something to be held with some nuance, but in a lot of ways influenced the people who most influenced me.

Host: Yeah, I mean, for sure, because the. Yeah. Wilbur cites Adi Dara's influence, David Data, obviously very influenced by Adi Da. Yeah. I don't I've never read. You know why I've never read it? Because Ken says you, you got to read a first edition of the Knee of Listening that the later ones. But he puts in a bunch of crazy stuff and he's like, if you get a hold of first edition, they that's the good stuff. And I've just not. They're like 100 bucks or something. I've just never totally. So I've never read any Adida. I don't really know the deal the one, you know, the story. I know, I mean, I know, I've heard, I know some of the fucked up stories, but the story that I always remember is some story of him sitting in some hotel lobby and no one knows who he is. And he sat there and like over the course of an hour, the people in the hotel start like tearing their hair and wailing and just having this like crazy Kundalini awakening en masse. Right? Like random people in a hotel lobby. Now is that true? Almost certainly. It's an exaggeration at the very least, but it's, you know, it's one of those stories you read when you're first on the spiritual journey where you're like, wait, what? Like that's a thing? Like, what are we talking about here? So anyway, that's a. Yeah. Little riff on Adida.

Jason Lange: I read a bunch of his books. I actually ended up having a friend in the suburbs whose family was like involved in the ashram in Chicago. And I never got super involved, but it was enough to kind of pique me into the world, pique my interest into the world of transformation, and essentially get me on the Ken bandwagon. So, you know, I started leading Reading Ken all throughout college. And after I grad, I went to film school in Santa Cruz and, you know, finished and was like, I don't know what to do with my life. What am I going to do with a film degree? And I was working as a caregiver for teenagers with autism, a group home for like two years after I graduated. And Ken had started Integral Naked, which was basically a podcast before, you know, even the format existed, where every week he would be interviewing different luminaries and episodes would drop. And one of my shifts happened to be a Monday night overnight shift cleaning the house while the kids were asleep. And I would just tear into those. And, you know, he would tell the story of all these kids are moving out to Boulder, Colorado to do these Integral raves. And I was like, whoa, whatever that is, I won some. And, you know, Moved home to Chicago for, like, a year and a half, saved some cash, and then landed out there in 2006, and the rest is kind of history.

Host: You know, I love this story. It's like, I think of everyone I've had on our stories are closest. I'm like, I really, I resonate with a lot of what you said. I, you know, the beginning of my journey had to do with, like, trying to figure out relationship and connection and dating and all of that stuff. I picked up a. It wasn't, I didn't get it from a song on the radio, which is, like, super cool. I can't remember why I picked up a Ken Wilbur book, but I, it was probably deca. It was probably deca, but I can't quite remember the sequence. Sure, I was listening to Decker at that time, and, But I, I picked up a, A Ken book, and that was kind of, yeah, off to the Races. I, I would love to just, like, like, pause on that moment for a moment, just because it, you know, I, I also haven't talked that much about Integral on the podcast, which is wild, given how influenced I've been by it. It just hasn't come up. And, like, you're, you know, so I, I, I just kind of want to hang out for a moment there of, like, do you remember, like, the impact of, like, reading that first book or those first books and, like, what was happening for you? What it was awakening in you? What, what was the, what was the thing it was doing that nothing else had done before?

Jason Lange: Yeah, Yeah. I think, you know, I was raised in a Lutheran household. I didn't have, like, a negative experience of religion, like a lot of people, but it just, it didn't engage me.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: I go to the services, and it was kind of like just paint by numbers. And, you know, I got into the music and I started going to concerts, and I would have these feelings at concerts of, like, I feel warm, I feel connected, I feel alive. Like, something about this feels good. I want more of whatever this is. I don't know what it is. And, you know, Ken's work started to give me a context to just understand my experiences and probably more than anything else, give me a vision of where to grow. Like, literally where to grow. I didn't know any of this stuff, you know, in my particular church, it didn't really give a trajectory other than follow these rules. And so it kickstarted this kind of intuitive sense of, I know how I'm showing up in the world, how I'm being what I'M feeling in the world doesn't feel good. Right. I was, like, heavily ruminating, kind of depressive, didn't know how to connect with women. And I just had an intuitive sense this is a path. This is a path that if I. If I follow this, it's going to take me somewhere. And then I think the other thing I loved about it. Right. Is other than music you write, one of the things we share is I have a deep passion for movies. Right. I went to film school and story, you know, I would say it was media that actually opened me more than anything else as a kid and as a teenager to feeling music, movies. And, you know, Ken gets lots of critique and, you know, some of it's true. But the thing I think he still does better than anyone else is he tells an incredible story. And we don't have a lot of stories right now for the modern age of what we're doing and where we're going and where it all started. And to just feel part of a story, like a cosmic story that connected and worked for me, was deeply relaxing. And it's still the best story I've found, personally, of that. That kind of situates everything I've experienced and tasted in partial truths and all that kind of stuff. So I think it just kind of slotted me into something. There was just a. You know, I was on a retreat recently, and the feeling, particularly if I zoom out in life, was, oh, there's a tailwind that I just kind of need to catch. Like that if I just relax. That was one of the things, the music to the Ken to the institute, to change the whole trajectory of my life. So some part of me just intuitively felt that back then and trusted it. And every time I've trusted it, it's turned out pretty damn well. So that's, you know, great thing for me to sometimes remember these days in my life.

Host: I love that. And when you say tailwind, you know, my first, like, prepared question was about. Because your podcast is the evolutionary men, that word evolution. So we're going to get to men. But that word evolutionary is also really interesting when you say the tailwind and the story and being part of the cosmic story, like, that's where that word evolutionary comes in.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's that evolutionary impulse, right? It's that thing, you know, as Ken says, what made Dirk get up and write poetry. Or it's the thing, you know, I would feel on a film set or I often feel, working with men, something that emerges that was more than the sum of its Parts. And it's thrilling creatively when it happens, and it's thrilling in life, too. And it's just this sense that for all the highs and lows, we're going somewhere. Don't know where necessarily. He kind of paints a rough picture, but I trust that pretty deeply. And it's something that, you know, helps me navigate my life, that. Through challenging times or whatever, that, okay, I might not see it right now, but this is all going somewhere. And maybe I have a small part to play in it, both in my own development and in supporting other people.

Host: To develop for me. I, you know, I inhaled it for like a decade. I read everything, and I, you know, was teaching and, like, just deeply and. And so it just is part of my DNA, of my. My intellectual DNA and spiritual DNA. And, like, I don't think about the story and the story, I mean, for folks that don't know, which is a damn shame. And I should have done a better job of telling people to read Ken. But, you know, the story is essentially one of. Of. Of development and that humanity, I mean, there's a bigger story, but that humanity is on a developmental track and that it doesn't stop with, you know, democracy and the scientific method in the enlightenment through 300 years ago or wherever you want to stop it. Or some people would say, well, no, we peaked, you know, 10,000 years ago when we were, you know, still hunter gatherers, whatever. But that there's this continuing progression and there's, you know, people problematize that in all these ways, but there's this recognition that we're making a kind of progress into deeper, more complex, more nuanced understandings of the world. That story, I kind of forget about it sometimes, and I'm like, I'm doing other things. It is a great story. It's a great story. What I notice, all of that context is. What I notice is 10, 15 years ago, when I was inhaling this stuff, it was culturally a more optimistic time. People were still happy about iPhones and Facebook. Those still seemed like good news at that time. We were like, this is cool. Can connect with each other. I can. I can, you know, whatever I can do with my iPhone. Like, I was just talking to someone about this the other day of, like, remember when you were so excited to find a new app? Like, oh, I found my phone can do this new thing, right? And now it's like, you couldn't, like, pay me to go on the App Store and, like, look for shit my phone can do. Like, I totally. To go away Anyway, but you know, during that more optimistic time, it. What it felt like from now I'll leave behind the folks that I don't already know the Ken stuff, but maybe I'll give like a preci. In the intro. But you know, it felt like we were kind of just heading out of Orange. And that a lot for me of what the Integral stuff was doing was. It was antidoting Orange. It was saying, ah, because this is what Integral does is it includes, you know, the, the opposite perspective. Okay. Like, don't get stuck in your kind of materialist, hyper rationalist thing. Like there's more going on, right? It now, the current moment, it feels like we're deep in green in so many ways and in ways that are pathological in lots of different versions of pathology, like the post truth, right. Like this. And, and, and, and so it's like maybe this is the, the darkest moment of the night before the dawn or whatever. Because the next thing that's supposed to happen is culturally we. We hit Integral, which is this kind of very, very sophisticated worldview that understands development, that's able to include conflicting perspectives, that has this, you know, and, and I don't know what our timeline for that is, you know, but I. All of that is just to say, like, are we still doing it? Are we still on track? Like, how are you feeling about that? That's a long thing to respond to. But yeah, whatever comes up.

Jason Lange: Yeah, no, totally, I would say. Turns out, I think things were premature. And you know, in a lot of the developmental theories, Keegan and whatnot, they talk about off. I mean, even at a personal level. And I think this happens at a cultural level, right? As our current way of being is no longer sufficient for the moment, it's like we start to slingshot. So we actually pull back all the old frames and patterns, really try to assert themselves and say, no, this is how the world works. This is how we're going to try really hard. We're going to double down on this is how the world works. And in a sense we get to re. Experience just how insufficient they are. And then there's often like a slingshot into a new way of being, but it's not without risk. And there's no guarantee the slingshot's ever going to go forward. And I think we're in that moment, right? You know, certainly I was swept up in the kind of Obama, oh my God, we're past all this stuff. Like we can work together. You know, it's not a red country or blue country. And it turns out we weren't ready for that. That was premature. And it was a little pie in the sky in some different senses. And that technology and culture, I think, are swirling together right now. Yeah, you're totally right. I mean, there has never been, I think, a more post truth, postmodern moment where whatever reality you want to live, you can live. And it's just about to get more extreme with filter bubbles and AI and VR. Like shared reality is like such a precious resource right now. And what does that even mean anymore? Because it turns out, where are you sharing reality from what perspective? So, yeah, you know, I, I would say, you know, I'm an enneagram9. I tend to be an optimist from that, that wider view. And there's just the very real reality that, yeah, if you go wide enough out, I think the trajectory holds true. It's just how much suffering is in between. And are we at a point where that suffering is just a couple generations forward at this point? You know, like, yeah, we got to have another dark ages. We got to get really down and dirty again before something slingshots forward. I don't know. I just. I don't know. But I still think the narrative holds. And, you know, part of what I like about that narrative, Stuart Davis, who is a big singer, songwriter in the Integral scene, you know, he had this great line. I don't know if he came up with it, but it was in one of the songs, right, that kind of talked about development, which is the higher that we climb, the more the ladder sways. Just essentially, just in any kind of systems theory, the more complexity you introduce, the more pathology and things can go wrong at any time. That's it, right? So if you're just a single celled organism, there's kind of only so many ways your system can malfunction. But by the time you get up to where we're at as a culture, as a species, as humans, there's a lot of things that can go wrong. And we're having to learn this stuff as we go in a lot of ways. So it is in some sense, this tiny, you know, human consciousness, it's so fragile. I mean, it is so fragile when you really look at it. You know, I was just talking to someone about the. The image of the astronaut who took the first, you know, photo of the. The earth from far away and he like covered it with thumb and he was like, basically, yeah, everybody that's ever existed right under that thumb, and that thumb is so teeny and minuscule and you know, I think it's one of those amazing things that's like, wow, if what just what a precious, precious light we are. And I think it's worth defending which is, and growing, you know, in a sense which is by part of why I'm so passionate and how in a lot of ways, you know, my, my contribution to the unfolding. I've seen the pain point in my own life as mentioned and that's where I've gravitated towards to you know, support men getting connected to each other and showing up in a different way.

Host: So let's, let's go there soon. I, there's one piece I want to come back to and what you just said, just to add because I think, you know, I once, I know that you know this and just to kind of add for completeness that picture of the more complexity, the more pathology and, but also the more depth and richness and beauty and, and all of these incredible things which I think, you know, I was just, the Facebook randomly just advertised me a these zines that were like anti human supremacy zines. It was somebody selling a pack and I might buy them because they were, the titles are good. I can't remember any of the titles right now, but the titles are good and the art was good and I was like, but you know, and there's this thing, there's this thing that people do and I think it's very noble minded and very kind of good spirited. That's kind of like we're no different than all, we're just animals, same as everything. It's all just the same thing and you know, and we shouldn't hold ourselves, blah, blah. And I, I, I do understand that impulse and I love animals and nature and all of that and like we're doing some fucked up shit to nature which is bad. And I also just want to hold what you, you, you were bringing in this extraordinary light that like just a. One of the gifts of human beings particularly is this extraordinary depth, this extraordinary beauty that we're capable of. This extraordinary beauty aesthetically beauty, morally we're also capable of moral, deep moral ugliness. But there's so much so just to kind of say yes, there's way more things that can go wrong and there's also some things that we offer that the universe otherwise doesn't get as far as we know.

Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah. So spot on in that. Right? It's that, that depth that's such a precious, precious thing that so far we haven't seen anywhere else. Right. Like that, that's it might exist somewhere else, but so far we haven't. And that creates a little bit of urgency in my mind and is one of those things that does make us unique in terms of our responsibility as well, because. Right. There's not really many other creatures, animals, consciousnesses that have the capacity to be aware of the system. They're just part of it and they end up playing a role. And it's beautiful how it all involves. And there's some intelligence, but they're not aware of it and they're part in it. And we do have that capacity. And that's a pretty unique thing that I think comes with some stewardship, I would argue, and responsibility in that regard.

Host: Yeah, Yeah. I love that. That's like even a third leg of like there's the pathologies, there's the gifts, but there's also the responsibility. I love that. Yeah.

Jason Lange: Yep. Boom. That's a great way to put it.

Host: I don't know if you've come across. There's this movie, I haven't seen it yet. There's a documentary coming during the rounds called. I think it's called the Age of Disclosure. Have you heard of this? It's so. Apparently it's brand new. I haven't seen it. It's not a recommendation but apparently it's like a mic drop about like the government cover up of aliens and all of this. Like it's like people are really excited about it. So I'm just saying we might be about to find out that.

Jason Lange: Sure.

Host: That actually there are other intelligences. I'm not, I'm still. I'm not convinced it would take a lot anyway. Neither here nor there. So men. Let's talk about man. So that's the other. So evolutionary man is your podcast and you, you brough up that where your passion and where your work has led you is to working with men. I. Yeah. Tell me like what's up with that?

Jason Lange: Sure. Again, you know, I think flows from my own story in terms of. Yeah, I got introduced to Integral. I had this sense I needed to change. I tried a lot of. And what really moved the needle for me more than anything else was joining a men's group which, you know, we, we have some mutual friends who are part of and I've been part of many multiple groups at this point. And I think part of the challenge right now just even at a broader societal level is what does it mean to be in community anymore? Right. There were all these structures that were kind of natural offshoots of geographical limitation and Those have just been blasted apart. And so many of the things that used to connect us at a smaller scale, human level are challenged. They're just challenged. You know, again, I live in here in the States, which is kind of the suburban mecca, which has become a blueprint. I think that a lot of the world is trying to chase which the dream, when you think about it's kind of nuts. It's, yeah, I have your own private property away from everyone else, where you get to drive at your own pace and never interact with anyone you don't want to interact with. And turns out that comes with some challenges that I think men in particular are very susceptible to. And as we move more and more virtual online, work from home, chatbots, all that kind of crap, the weaknesses, I, I guess you could say of male community are extra exposed right now. Doesn't mean it has to be this way. But there's a culture, you know, we're taught as mental. And here in the west in particular, right, we got the Marlboro man, tough as nails cowboy. Just figure it out by yourself, pick yourself up by the bootstraps. I don't need anybody. I certainly don't reveal any vulnerability or weakness. And so that's it. And, you know, the truth is, I work with a lot of those guys now, and they die sooner. They're addicted to alcohol, they smoke, they die alone. Like, it's just not a pretty picture. They commit suicide. And a lot of this, I think, just comes down to connection and how we need other men to grow in. Out of all the different things, you know, I've kind of tracked in my life, what, like I said, changed me the most was being in male community in men's groups. And now that I see it, I just, I want to offer it back. And so my thing is simple mission. Every man should be in a men's group. Like, if every dude had eight to 10 guys that gave a shit about him, that tracked him, that supported him and absolutely held him accountable and gave him feedback, I think the world would just be a much healthier place because healthy men get into healthy relationships, and healthy relationships create healthy kids or support healthy kids. And to some extent, that's kind of, to me, where the whole game is, can we raise children that don't have to spend, you know, 40, 50 years of their lives going to workshops and doing plant medicines to unwind damage they experienced, you know, between 0 and 10? Like, what would it mean to come in just a little more connected and resourced as a species? And I know it sounds kind of simple, but. And it's not like there's not always going to be challenges, but I just see a huge vanguard there. And I think a lot of men are lost and confused right now about how do I contribute, how do I create meaning in my life right now and what's my role when smashing things and using my body isn't enough. Like, just very simple, you know, in a big way for us men for a long time, that's not really needed in most culture anymore. And so we're being asked to grow and develop new capacities. And I was fucking lost as a kid. And it wasn't until I got around older male mentors that I started to get a sense of, ah, one of the guys that trained me that I did some deep work with in one of my first men's groups. Right. I remember this sounds so kind of ridiculous, but I was sitting in the circle with him and I had, you know, I was 25, 26, and I had the experience of, oh, that's what I want to be when I grow up. Looking at him and it wasn't. I mean, it turns out I end up doing a lot of the same work he did now. But it wasn't about what he was doing in terms of profession, but it was how he was being right. It was how I felt in his presence. It's like, wow, I feel more relaxed, I feel more trust. I just, I feel more here. I want to be that. How do I do that? How did he get there? And I think that's where a lot of guys are struggling right now is we don't have a model for where to grow to. And in that vacuum, you know, we all know who's shown up in the Andrew Tates and the kind of simplistic, let's go back to the, you know, back in time kind of values that tries to. Tries to fill that gap and turns out that doesn't work right. So, yeah, obviously I could go off on this stuff forever, but I'm just super passionate about getting guys connected into community because A, it's more effective for growth and B, it's just a fuck ton more fun.

Host: I love all of that. I've. As a kid, I wasn't that interested. I mean, I had. My best friend was a man. I mean, I was, I was friends with men or, you know, boys, whatever. Growing up, I was always more interested in women. I just always have. I'm just kind of like, you know, a ladies man sounds wrong, but like, you know, like, I suppose that there's a man's man and there's, like, a woman's. I don't know what the alternative is, but, like, you know, and so I. I never. I just. It would never have registered that, like, community with men was, like, something that I wanted or needed or anything like that. And so discovering and, you know, similar route, but, like, getting to the Authentic man program, and there was an integrally informed men's work container and. And just going like, oh, like, there's this thing called brotherhood that fucking feels good, and that makes a difference, and that is exciting and like, oh. And that you can feel, like, challenged by someone and loved in the exact same moment and that it's this completely different thing from, like, the feminine and how, like, whatever. All of the wonderful things about the feminine, but there's this kind of quality that's like. Like unique. That is. You know, it did feel like the nutrient that. That my system needed that was kind of like, oh, I. The. To grow. There's this guy. Have you come across Bert Hellinger?

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: Yeah. So. Yeah. So he, you know, family consolation. And so he talks about the world of women in the world of man, and he says that boys are born into the world of women. That's just kind of how it goes. And you grow up in the world of women and that there's a point in your life where you. You have to transition into the world of man in. You know, in kind of more archaic.

Jason Lange: In.

Host: Not in a pejorative sense. I can't find a good word, but, like, culture is, like, kind of closer to our evolutionary history. You would have these rights of initiation where, you know, the classic one being that they. You know, the. The story I always hear is, like, they. They. The. The men come to the boy's room at some point in the middle of the night, and they drag him off and they drag him away from his mom and his sisters and all of that, take him out into the woods and, you know, like, do this terrifying ritual, like, and with the. With this express purpose of, like, bringing him into the world of man. And we do not have that. That we don't have anything like that. And there's no even understanding that that could be a thing. And, you know, there's. There's the reactionary layer, which is the Andrew taste of, like, you're saying that's kind of just, like, get to the world of men because women are stupid and, like, whatever, right? And then there's the. Then there's the. You know, this is the kind of Data model. Right. And then there's the. The layer that's like, well, you know, there's no difference.

Jason Lange: What do you mean?

Host: World of man, world of women. It's all one world. We're all just biological creatures. And, like, doesn't matter what bits you got. And, like, that's a whole frame. Right. And. But what we're missing is some sense of, like. Yeah, of. Of ritual, of. Of a culture that can understand that necessity. And so I think until we have that, you know, maybe we. We have it in the form that you're talking about, of, like, workshops and medicine journeys. And. And, like, these are our rights of initiation now. And we, you know, we've kind of had to reconfigure this thing out of, like, parts and scraps and kind of say, like, okay, so, yeah, I don't. I don't remember what you said that I was responding to that, but, yeah, that's great.

Jason Lange: And it's happening like it is happening. You know, pretty plugged into the movement now. In rites of passage and transitions there. There's a deep awareness of the incredible gap in our culture and how boys are just kind of left adrift at sea, you know, honestly, for what to grow into. And, you know, there's this. I came across this crazy study that I found so fascinating that I feel like talks about this born into the world of women and then have to transition to men and stuff, and just the different cultural expectations we have on men and women. And it was just a simple survey. They polled both men and women right around two things. What marks the transition from a girl to becoming a woman? And what marks the transition from a boy to becoming a man? And with girls, not saying this is right or wrong, but both sides reported this. Oh, it's based on her biology as she started her cycle. Has her body developed yet? It was based on physiology. Oh, she's a woman now, right? With boys, guess what had nothing to do with their biology. It was, oh, my God, how does he show up in his community? How does he hold himself? You can be a fully mature in your body man, but, oh, he's still a boy. Failure to launch. He never got out there. And I think that's part of what we're pointing to, is there's some shift in a way of being. Of how a man, a boy, then holds himself in the context of his community and culture and family and whatnot that we do put different expectations on. And the trouble is now we just don't give boys any training around what that actually means. And so in that vacuum, it's essentially, you know, social media and porn are what raise most boys these days, and maybe some media. But this thing we're talking about, again, why I love men's groups in particular and rites of passage and retreats, is I think it's an actual transition transmission that goes man to man. Right. It's that like I felt with my teacher, just, wow, okay. That's what it is. I see how you're talking to your wife. I see how you're handling conflict. I see how you're being in your body. Now I have a map, and now I want to move towards that. And I didn't have that map before. I just didn't have it. You know, I had kind of the general map from Ken, but I didn't have the personal map in terms of what kind of man do I want to be. And I think this is just one of the things that's so desperately needed right now. And in that it's so obvious, the caveman way of being doesn't work anymore. You know, The Don Draper 1950s, my way or the highway, I take what I want doesn't work. The so called nice guy. I'm Good friends with Dr. Glover. The. Okay, well, I don't want to be that. I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to cause anyone any harm. So I want to be a very safe person, be very attuned. But then, oh, I have no connection to my balls anymore. I'm getting steamrolled. I have no boundaries in my life and I'm not getting what I want. So what, what's this third way, you know, like, as often is the kind of unfolding thing, and that's okay. What does it mean to. Yeah. Be sensitive, be connected to our balls, have deep presence and care and take responsibility for our pain and how we show up in community. And that's really what I have found. This, you know, kind of body of work called men's work really does. And, you know, like, I think when. When you and I were kind of coming up, there was the initial burst in the 90s with Robert Bly and the Mythopoetic Movement and Mankind Project. That definitely moved the needle a little bit, but then it didn't quite connect, I think to enough men. And so the 2000s were really interesting because I think really all the pickup scenes started as, hey, it's not working anymore and men need help. And obviously there were very shadowy elements to that scene. Not going to defend those. But There were also the proto movements that have become the much deeper men's work movement now, where it's like, oh, actually, turns out it has more to do with how you're being on the inside than what routine you're following on the outside. And for a lot of men, myself to some extent included, that was the first exposure to men's work of, wow, how I'm showing up, how I'm feeling in my body matters to how people experience me and what I can create and go for in life. And, you know, that's continued to unfold. And, you know, it's exciting now that there's barely a week that goes by, someone doesn't forward me an article in a mainstream news publication or something about the boy crisis, about the male crisis. And there's a real awareness, I think, growing, that, hey, men need some support right now. And guess what? It doesn't have to come at the expense of support for women and children as well in that really, we all need a little help right now because culture has gotten more complex. And, you know, I tell this to a lot of the guys I work with. It's not like women have it any easier. We're all being asked to grow and develop and figure out ways to be healthy and whole in this environment. And turns out us men just need some help. And there's something pretty magic that can happen when we're just in the context of other men. And there's a unique texture, right, that is different than feminine love to masculine love. And these things don't have to just come from a man or a woman, but they're energetics inside of us. And I, you know, I just wrapped a retreat with some guys two weeks ago, and I can tell you, you've worked with hundreds of men now. Most men don't even know how much they're craving masculine love. And when they finally experience it, it's like, holy shit, no one even told me this was a reality. And because I didn't know that, I've been trying to get all of that from love, from women, right? And it turns out it's just different kind of nutrient. One's not better than the other. They both have gifts. And turns out we can just become a lot more fleshed out as human beings when we have access to both kinds of love.

Host: Yeah, I love that. And it, yeah, it's very resonant for me of. Of ways that, like, the chasing and kind of, like fixation on, like, women and sex and all of that softens a little bit. When you have this other dimension of connection, it never stops being interesting as far as I can tell. But it, it, it's no longer like this like life or death prospect that it can feel when you're desperately lonely. And you, what you know about connection is like, well, you know about intimacy is, well, I can be intimate with someone if it's a woman and we're naked together, right? Like that's, now that's where intimacy comes from. That's where connection comes from. And you know, in your men's circles, I'm, I imagine you, you guys are not getting naked together or being intimate in that way, but that, but in an emotional intimacy and just being human with each other and being open hearted human beings and, and feeling love and connection. Like yeah, it's, it's, I love it. I love the mission. I also just say, so I'm working on marketing at the moment in my life. Like this is a thing that's as I'm, I'm building a business and I'm very, very bad at it. I'm just extraordinarily bad. And I, I've just, I've listened to a few of your podcasts. This is whatever kind of inside of baseball a little bit. But I listened to a few of your podcasts and like the fact that you have this message that's like, you have this goal that's really specific. You have this like, every man should be in a men's circle. Men's circles are really good for you. You need to do it. It's like it was so good. I would just listen and I'm like, wow. Like, this is, this is, it's really good because it's, because you believe it. It's true. You're walking the walk and you, you're selling something that you, that's like really clear. Like this is, this is what we're doing here. And I just wanted to reflect that, that it was like, I love that. I love that mission. I, I, I feel wholeheartedly stand behind that. The mission. Every man should be in a man's circle. Like, amen. The world would be a better place. So awesome.

Jason Lange: Thank you. That's, that's feels really good to receive in here. And I, I often feel challenged with marketing. Like I don't, I don't quite love it. And so it feels good to know that, okay, what I do care about is getting through. And you know, sometimes there's just, there's just so much out there these days that it's like, okay, I kind of feel like I'm yelling into the void sometimes. So it's good to get a little bit of feedback and know that. Okay. Yeah. And, you know, another thing I've just had to come terms with is in some ways, I'm starting to feel more like a politician, where I get on these podcasts and I say, like, the same four things over and over and over again, and I'm like, isn't this, like, really boring and redundant? But then it's just good to know. Okay. No simple message. It gets out there. It gives. Yeah. It's impacting. So thank you for that reflection.

Host: Yeah, it's. It definitely. It. It works. By. By the. By the third episode I listened to, I was like, oh, man. Like, I am in a men's circle, but I'm like, maybe. Maybe my men's circle should be bigger. I'm like this. I start going places. I'm just like, maybe I need to be doing more. There's more I can be getting out of it. So. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I want to bring something in here. It's maybe a little, whatever. Fractious, or. Or which you haven't brought. And. And. But I just want to bring in. We'll see where it goes. Because, you know, one of the things I noticed. So there's, you know, there's a lot going on in the world. I don't know if anybody's noticed, but it's. There's a lot going on in the world. All different layers of things. And one of the things that, for me is I personally find challenging when I kind of look out there is the. That there's a lot of. Understandable, I would say, but unfortunate and ultimately bigoted anger towards men. And especially in a particular band of the culture, that is the. It's like, there's two choices. There's the Andrew Tate women in. In all senses of that word, and, you know, just like, whatever, be it. Be an awful human being and. And abuse people and be extractive and exploitive. There's that. Or the kind of more tame version of that, which is just like, you know, the kind of traditional American conservative thing. And then there's the thread which is like, well, don't do that, because, you know, we care about women and they're human beings, and it's nice to be nice to them. But now we have to deal with the fact that, like, all of the kind of. The long history of. Of abuse and oppression and all of that. And so now we're gonna say, well, men suck and they're, you know, in their pieces, the lady. There's this man keeping thing. There's this, you know, there's all this stuff that's just about, like, how much men suck and how, like, they should feel bad and they're bad and they should feel bad and, you know, an oh, boohoo. Like, men are having a mental health crisis. Right. That's a whole. You know, I saw that. I don't know if you came across this as this guy in England who started some kind of men's movement. He's a writer. And. And, you know, in response to the mental health crisis in England, I think it's. It's also bad. Like, it is here of, like, kind of in response to the high suicide rate of, like, let's create spaces for a man to come together. Like, you know, I. I think less informed by the kind of beautiful Jungian, like, rubber Bly. Whatever, like, stuff that the American version has, but still the similar spirit. And he's on some talk show talking about this and saying, you know, men need help. And I'm trying to, like, create it. And he's just being, like, attacked for how, like, 90% of domestic violence is men beating women and all this stuff. And it's just like, there's a confusion there. And there's this thing that happens. I don't know if you remember. God, I could get on my hobby horse about this, but the. The bear thing, I. Like a year ago, the. Like, you're going in the woods, like, do you want to meet a man? Yeah, like, that whole discourse that's just, like, designed to inflame this stuff. And. And so I. I guess I'm saying all of this and I'm bringing this as like, for. If there are folks out there that are listening to this and feeling like, well, hang on, why are we talking about men? And why are we talking about supporting men? Like, aren't men the enemy in some way? I don't know. My. And no one listens. This is feeling that way. But what am I trying to say here? That there's a. It's not exclusive. This is what you were just saying, that it's not that. Supporting men to be more connected with each other, creating community for men, it's not gonna create more Andrew Tate's. It's the antidote to Andrew Tate. Yeah, it's gonna. Yeah. So anyway, that's. Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, I wonder how. Because I get. And I. I get fucking reactive about it, and I get cranky and I so, yeah, I'm curious how you hold all of that. And you have a son, right? So that must be even more raw for you, I imagine, when you hear people talking, like, just denigrating men.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, again, kind of what we let in with. With some of the cultural context I get from Integral helps in the sense and development that, you know, not in all cultures, but in a lot of cultures for a long time there was a hierarchy and men were at the top. And anytime there's development, there's a pendulum swing to the other side. And so men were at the top for a while and there was a reactionary movement to knock them off the top. And, you know, even in things like, again, you know, I was raised on 90s sitcoms, and really from the 90s on, you know, the. The man and the family was generally the butt of the joke. Oh, he's so stupid. He's dumb, he's kind of a caveman. He's an ape, you know. And it continued into media and some of that I think was necessary and good, but it's not particularly productive or useful. And here's the thing, I guess my kind of post postmodern take in my response to all that is it does no fucking good to rank pain. When we start to try to rank pain, we've already lost. We've just already lost, in my opinion, because there's always someone else who's in some kind of more pain or whatnot. And I'm just far more interested in what's the solution, my pain. Acknowledging it does not have to minimize your pain. But the world I want to live in is a world where there's less pain and suffering for everyone. And so right now, a lot has changed in the world. And yes, men do not have the training they need to be effective and whole, I think in modern culture right now. And I do get, I definitely count me in on the train of fucking hate the term toxic masculinity, because what it implies is it's irredeemable, it's just inherently toxic. I'm far more inclined to say, yes, there is pathological masculinity, which means it didn't grow right, it didn't get the nutrients it needed. But guess what? You can correct that with some training. And that health, what the world needs right now, in my opinion, is not less masculinity. It needs more healthy masculinity, just like it needs more healthy femininity, just like it needs all the unlimited expressions of what's in between. And that again, creating spaces for men is not to say we're more important. It's the guys I know, most men I know, when you really get down to it, they want to fucking make a difference. They want to help, they want to move the needle on their communities, their relationships with their children, but they don't know how, right? The story so many of us men, I think, have experienced is, you know, here's the term, right? The patriarchy, which, guess what, it fucking impacts men just as much as it does women. So as young boys, right, it's changing, but it still happens. I still see it all the time. I'm trying to be really mindful of it myself. And I still catch myself as a father of a daughter and a boy. Little boy falls down, oh, you're fine, get up, you're tough. It's all good. You can do it, right? No, not a big deal. It's not even a big boo boo, you know, girl falls down. It's often handled differently from a young age. Stop crying, get back up. Go for it. We start to receive this message as boys and into men, that continues through a through line of, whatever's happening in your body, override it with your head. Then we get into school, the kind of industrial school system, oh, he's a bad kid. He's got adhd. He can't pay attention, he can't sit still. Sit still. That natural kinetic need to move your body, one of the differences, no, not exclusively, but a difference between a male and a female body often is just a need to move. That's it, right? I saw another research study that was like, the education gap that's opened up between young boys and girls right now can basically be eradicated. If you do two things. One, hold the boys back an extra year, our emotional brain develops a little slower. Two, start the day with an hour or two of vigorous physical activity. Once the vigorous physical activity has happened, guess what? Boys have no problem sitting still, paying attention most of the time. But the message we often get is that urge to move. That's wrong. Override it with your head and sit still. We get into adolescence, it turns to other boys. Our bodies are developing at different rates. There's all this social nuance. We don't want to be in the out group. Don't be vulnerable, don't share anything. Whatever's happening in your body, override that. Be tough, be cool, stay in the collective. We get out into the workforce, what are we rewarded for? That guy's a hard worker. He works 80 hours a week, Elon sleeps under his desk.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: Whatever's happening in your body, override it. It's more important to push with your head. And so we wonder why we're raising generations of disembodied men who have no idea what's happening in their body. And, you know, in the work I do, I imagine you kind of fall into this category. All emotions start as physical sensations. So if you're not in your fucking body aware of what your body's feeling, you have no clue what's happening for you emotionally. And then through culture, we're trained again. Feelings are weak. To be a man means to be invulnerable. No one teaches us what's going on inside. So we have these intense internal states. Like I did. No language for it. So what do we do? It doesn't feel good. I got to reach to something outside of me to change my internal state. Porn, booze, sex, overworking, video games, food, you name it. But we're not given the tools to become aware of our inner state. And then we get into relationships. Not with all women, but yes, with some women. Honey, I want to feel you more. I don't feel you. I can't feel you. I want to know you have emotions. Okay. Oh, my God. Here's what I'm feeling. Vulnerable. Blah. Whoa. Ew. Ah. That's scary. I don't like it when you do that. This happens to a lot of men I work with where they do bring forward their vulnerability, and suddenly they're not seen as a man and they get attacked for it. So again, there's. We could do a whole podcast about the challenges of the feminine and females and all they've had to endure. This isn't to discount that. I'm just saying we're in a moment where men are being asked to be more embodied, to have more emotional intelligence. And we're not taught it, we're just not taught it. So right now, it's up to us to self motivate, to get out there and figure this out. And it's pretty hard because if you know, you don't come across the right thing, you're left in the woods and you get fed this crap instead. I don't remember what took me on this diatribe.

Host: It's great. It's great. There's a couple things I want to respond to. The first is just like, I'd never quite felt into the impact of sitting in School for 10 years or how fucking long you're in school, being told to sit still. I was just kind of feeling that. Of, like, oh, God. Like, there's surely, you know, subtle energy cages in my system at this point that have trained me to, like, not move, you know, and this is. It's one of the, you know, cliches of, like, people get into men's work, get into transformational work, and they start going to ecstatic dance and, like, moving their body all kind of ways, or they do yoga or, you know, the. But I think that is. It's a response to that. It's a. It's reclaiming. Right. In order to be embodied, there's a component which is about feeling, and there's also a component which is about moving and expressing. And. Yeah, I mean, very impactful for me when I started out my own healing around this. And I'm English, so, like, we're not allowed to move. Enduring sex. You're not supposed to. There's no time when you're supposed to move. You're supposed to be as stationary as possible at all times. So, like, yeah, I remember how liberating and confronting it would be to, like, go to these, like, dance classes of, like, people were just, like, waving their arms around. They weren't trying to do anything that looked good or anything. They were just, you know, flowing freely. So, yeah, just reminded of all of that, remembering all that. And then, yeah, the piece about it was also central for me early on. You know, that was one of the things that. Again, I mentioned Decker, but the. Of the Authentic man program. But, you know, I. I was in the UK and I was listening to audio of his, and he was talking about feeling the sensations in your body while you're speaking with someone. And I was like, the. Are you talking about. Like, I have.

Jason Lange: No.

Host: Nobody I've ever met has said anything like this. There's no anything. Like, it was completely alien to me. And then at the same time, started reading Eckhart Tolle, who also. He says the same thing. He talks about the inner body. And it was. This was a transformative. I've told this story before, but this was a transformative moment for me where, like, I was reading Eckhartalia and I was kind of like, well, this makes sense. Like, don't worry about the future. Don't ruminate on the past. Like, I got that. And then it's like, gets to the chapter on the inner body, and it's like, you know, a really great way to be in the now is to, like, feel your inner body. And I was like, what? And I remember there being a few weeks Where I was trying to do this thing and I'd be sat on the bus like, do I feel my inner body? I don't know. I don't know. And then this day where I felt my hands and there was just like aliveness in my hands. And honestly, it was that I followed that down wherever it led me just to. To develop a sensitivity to that. And, you know, that probably for me. And yeah, I kind of want to ask you the same question, is this was. Been the single most profound transformation in my life is just the ability to feel what I am feeling in real time while I'm connecting with someone. And you know, you. It has this quality. You talked about it like it has an emotional quality, which is really important and to be connected with emotion. And it also has this other thing that we just do not really have language for until you. Except you get woo woo and hippie and talk about energy and subtle energies and chi and stuff like that. That's like. That's kind of at a. I would say at a subtler, more nuanced layer than the emotional layer. But that's really cool. And it's really cool when you start playing with it in sex. But it's also just cool when you're hanging out with someone and you're playing. So, yeah, just bringing all of that and just excited by everything you're saying. Yeah, yeah. And.

Jason Lange: Right. It makes things better for everyone. So again, this is where I sit. You know, I was at a men's conference last year and they were talking about, yeah, men's work is human work. Right. It's just the type of education we sometimes need is a little different, but we all want to end up the same place where we're whole, happy, healthy human beings who can relate in community and have taken responsibility for our emotional wounding and can show up with presence. And it just so happens because of all those cultural forces and some biological forces, you know, there's certain things men have to deal with that women don't. And there's lots of things that women have to deal with that men don't. And so it's not the same teaching all the time. It can get us to the same place, you know, in the end. And we just kind of have to take a different route there. And for so many of us guys. Yeah. Getting connected to our bodies, this would be the thing I would say is it's not men that are the problem. It's disembodied men. It's only a man that's disconnected from his body that's disconnected from his heart that's going to go out there and abuse women, abuse children, abuse the environment. When a man is in his heart, in attuned and feeling and connected, that stuff doesn't happen. It's not that we don't make mistakes, but that stuff happens much less. And you know, I've worked with a lot of men and I work with women and you know, this simple shift again, if you're a woman out there and you know, oh my God, men are just angry and they're scary and they're dangerous. The difference between a man who something happens in his relationship and he explodes in rage and pushes that rage out is some kind of aggression. That's the ultimate nightmare, right? Against his kids, against her, whatever. That's a man who can't hold his own emotions. The different experience of when a man is connected to the sensations in his body and his emotional heart and has language to express that when I'm standing across from my partner and I can say right now my shoulders are on fire and my hands have so much heat in them and I'm just so fucking pissed. The fact that I can speak that already makes the situation 10,000 times safer. I've heard from a lot of women the scariest thing for when they're around a man is not that. It's when the man, when they say, are you angry? No. And he's not even aware what's happening inside. That's when I want to get out of the room. I don't want to be around that guy because who knows what's about to happen? He's not even aware of his inner state. He has no control over. But all of this training that we can do as men to get away, become aware of our inner experience and become less reactive, it makes us safer in the world, makes it safer for everyone else. It makes it safer for other men to be around us as well. And this is shit that can be learned. You know, I got guys coming to me and oftentimes they can't even differentiate between a physical bodily sensation and a thought into feeling. And it's some basic work we have to do to develop that interoception and give them the language and the capacity to, to create that inner awareness. And once it becomes online, the world actually becomes a lot less scary for us as men because these deep, vague, weird things become, oh, I'm feeling grief right now. That's what that pit in the stomach of my belly is. I'm feeling sad. I need to talk to someone about the fact I'm feeling sad or I need to go put on my sad music playlist and just let it go. These are the kinds of things that become available as we get the training. And again, it allows us to become more whole, present humans. And who doesn't want that? Right? I mean, if you're a woman and you don't want that, okay, great, you can do your own thing. But I want a world full of whole and healthy men and women and anything in between.

Host: When you say, like whole present humans, if somebody doesn't know what you're talking about, that might sound like a kind of like a. What do I want to say? Like a moral. Like, oh, well, this is a good thing to be because you'll be good. Then, like, that's a whole healthy. You'll be good. And I just want to add, which I'm sure you. You, of course, you, you know, is like that also. It just feels good. Like that's a. It's like the internal experience of that is positive. So it's not. It is good for the world, but it's also just good for you to feel like there's some health, there's room, there's breathing room, there's space. There's just some sense of, like, that you're actually inside of your life and not kind of pushed out in the. In living in some virtual reality of. Yeah, disconnection.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And there's the locus of agency and control we get over our own lives. Right. One of the major shifts I see happen to men as they come into men's work is the move from life happens to me. Do I have the ability to influence my life and move it towards what I want to create and experience? And I mean, yeah, it can shift us out of this kind of victim mindset to, okay, what do I want to create? And I think very importantly, you know, I am a big proponent of. It means we have to fucking take responsibility for our own pain. We didn't ask for the way we were raised or the cultural pressures or. Or all the shit men did before us, but only we can take responsibility for it. And it's not falling on the sword of shame. It's all our fault. It's. If we don't fucking do it, who will? Literally, who will? And so let's do it. Let's. Let's just say, fuck, yeah, it sucked before a lot of these guys fuck some shit up. I've made mistakes before, but here I am. I'm going to try to figure it out? Why is it I get so reactive when blah, blah, blah, blah? Why do I shut down when blah, blah, blah? Why do I feel powerless around this? And like you, like you said, it actually just feels a lot better when we realize, oh, it's not even for an outcome. It just feels better to be in this state where I'm not resisting the moment and I can actually just be in it. Which, you know, is such a. Has been such a shift for me as a man over the years.

Host: Yeah, that's a deep one. It keeps, It's. There's. There's a lot of layers. I want to come to this idea. You. You brought this idea in the podcast episodes I listened to, you referenced this several times. I just thought it was an interesting word. I want to unpack. The word is friction. And you talked a lot about friction. And like, for example, the friction of being in person face to face, making eye contact and. But also, yeah, other. Like. So, yeah, I just want to unpack that. Like, what do you, what do you mean by friction? And what do you see as, like, the value of it?

Jason Lange: Yeah, well, I mean, again, take it into a cultural moment. Like everything is pushing us to be into a frictionless world, which means I don't have to feel conflict. All conflict is, is I want this and you want this. Right. That's conflict. I want something and you want something, and they're not necessarily aligned. So what do we do with that? And as we've moved to this more mediated, virtual, order it all on Amazon kind of thing, part of what's changing is we don't have to be in relationships where we have to both stay connected to ourselves and to each other in conflict. Right. One of the, I think it was Ezra Klein and one of his podcasts was talking to someone and I was like, oh, yeah, that's, that's, that's totally it. One of the shifts is, you know, when we are geographically based. Yes, there was homogenous cultures and communities and whatnot, but there was always some outsiders. There was always some difference. Right. There's the guy down the street who's a little weird and whatever, but he's my neighbor. I have to be in relationship to him because sometimes we just fucking need to help each other. And so we figure that out. There's like a layer of shared humanity that becomes the baseline, and then the differences kind of stack on top of that. When we moved online, the big shift, the big gift is we can hyper create these hyper communities around sameness. You believe the exact same Thing as me. Wow. Or right when. When we were raising my daughter and we found the Facebook group for parents of children with cochlear implants. It was like, incredible. To get all the shared resources and community and people who understand is great. But the shadow side is now more and more communities online mean we all believe exactly the same thing. Like, it's right. And there's no room for, well, I feel a little different about this, or, okay, you're out, we're going to take you down now, boom, you're gone.

Host: Then you go make your own little sub community with the three other people that prefer your way just a little bit to the other way. Yeah, right.

Jason Lange: And so this, you know, one of the episodes I did and one of these real things, you know, I'm trying to navigate is, you know, what does life look like post AI, Right. And one of the skills I think men in particular, but really anyone's going to need to develop is the ability to stay in connection during conflict, to be in friction with people without losing touch with our own needs and wants and heart and without losing touch with our own needs and wants and hearts. And I think that capacity has atrophied so fast in our culture right now. And I find myself doing it all the time, right. Oh, my God. This person I feel an affinity with. They just expressed an opinion that doesn't align with mine. I got to move them into the outbox of my mind now. I'm like, holy shit, what is that? That ignores this whole other person that often when I'm in, you know, physical proximity to changes things. And I've seen it showing up in my men's groups. One of the programs I run is a shadow work group, and basically men come in as strangers and we just go right straight to the hard shit. What is the most terrifying thing in your soul you've been unwilling to feel right? What's. What's the biggest challenge? And we start there, and it turns out later on, guys get to know each other and they're like, holy fuck, you're so different than me. I don't think we ever would have been friends if we had met in a different context. Because you're a Republican or you're a far left Democrat or whatever. But when we organize around what it means to be human, first we build this capacity where we can hold difference and stay connected. And I think this ability, you know, again, it's really the central tenant of so much men's work going back to those rites of passages is, can I stay Present without collapsing or posturing, you know, moves I think you're aware of when it's uncomfortable. That's it. That's it. Can I stay present when it's uncomfortable? Physically, relationally, environmentally, etc. In. In this relational realm, the ability to be in friction, that, okay, we're not totally aligned. How do I organize us around getting some kind of mutual good that is a deeply meaningful skill and capacity right now that I think has been totally eliminated from our political level, from our local communities in a lot of ways. That, again, what I think is cool about a men's group is it's small enough where we get to connect to each other's humanity, but oftentimes there's still enough difference that we have to learn to kind of bridge that gap and feel the friction. What does it mean right now? I mean, let alone an intimate relationship.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: It's that same capacity. Oh, my God. You want this right now, and I want this right now. Part of me just wants to tell you to go to hell or whatever, but, no, I'm going to stay present. I'm going to stay connected to you. And sometimes there's not a solution other than being with each other and saying, yeah, you really want this and I really want that. It's really hard, really hard that we're not aligned on that. And I don't know what to do, but I know I want to be here with you. So, yeah, it's.

Host: This.

Jason Lange: Is this term that's been kind of kicking around and I've been seeing both in myself and in my work. And, you know, again, it's not just a men's work thing, but it's a human relational capacity, I think, that we're really needing to develop right now that, lo and behold, right, they're dangling us, the intoxicating carrot of this sycophantic AI that never disagrees and is always fluffing up our ego.

Host: Right.

Jason Lange: I see it all the time. Right. It's, like, so ridiculous. And why do they do that? Because it keeps us engaged. We keep coming back, we keep using it because it's easier than staying connected through friction or conflict. And so the more those things come online, the more I think it's going to be really important that we can look someone, even if it's in the virtual eye, and feel that gap between our desires, wants, and beliefs, but stay connected.

Host: Beautiful. Yeah. And you, you will launch me into a tirade about AI that might last hours. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna hold that off. There is an episode I want to point people to your podcast and it's great. I really enjoyed it. I was, you know, digging in, preparing for this and really enjoyed it. They're short, unlike mine, which I, I guess you do interviews. I didn't listen to any interviews. I only listened to your solos. But, but, you know, I think short has a lot to recommend it. And there's one about AI and kind of future proofing as a man how to show for AI. I want to highly recommend that. That's was really great and I, I feel very aligned with everything you were said in there.

Jason Lange: Oh, thank you.

Host: Yeah, so. And I'll put a link in the. I'll put a link in the, the description. But yeah, there's. I mean, that's a whole other avenue which I'm gonna, I'm gonna contain myself about because. Because, yeah, it just. I get, I get animated, you know. One of the things you said though, in that I, I will bring in this one thing you talked about becoming comfortable offline and just this, that like, we're. We're not, you know, and we. And like, this is. I mean it. I have a T shirt. I've. I've yet to launch the merch wing of my empire, but I have like a lot of T shirt ideas. And one of them, which I, I just like, it's not a good idea, but it's. Is I want to make a T shirt which is a bunch of kids pointing outwards at the T shirt at, you know, you, the viewer of the T shirt, laughing in with mockery, saying, put your phone down, you lose it. And just to wear that into a coffee shop or any public place would be so confrontive, like, because it's just what I meant and I do it and I try not to, but then, you know, I, I still do. Like, I, you know, I went and got some breakfast this morning and I was waiting for. For my order and I'm like, well, am I just gonna sit here and meditate and like, be. No, I'm gonna read a fucking thing on my fucking phone. But it's like so lame. It's just so lame. Everybody just sat there on the, you know, and so anyway, becoming comfortable offline. Yeah, I just, I wanna invite that idea. Maybe it's the last idea we touch on here today. Yeah.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I think that's a great way to write offline. Life has a lot more friction. That's just the nature of it and that it's an important capacity and I think it's a Deep longing that people are coming back to of. Yeah. What it means. And you know, again, even as a coach, I'm having to look at what does it look like to coach when you're going to have an on demand chatbot that knows your entire life history that can be present for you any time or day. Right. I work with a lot of men already. Many of my guys chat. GPT is kind of their therapist, it has their diaries. It's changing things for them. So, okay, what's AI proof? Well, being offline, in person, in nature, with other human beings, it's pretty awesome. It's pretty awesome.

Host: It is pretty awesome.

Jason Lange: They feel alive, right? They feel relaxed, they feel connected. And that offline capacity I think is going to become, you know, I don't know if it's going to become more boutique, more of an Etsy type thing, but it's gonna, it's a really valuable thing that can't be replaced, reproduced by these mediated environments. I, I don't think there's, you know, there's certainly gifts to mediated environments and online, like we said, but there is this whole offline thing that is so special with body language and touch and subtle energies and you know, these things that sound woo woo, but also just that feeling of wow, I'm in a group right now and my heart rate is relaxed and I just feel chill and sometimes things flare up and then we stay connected and we get to play with each other. I think that's another thing too. Like, you know, it's kind of hard to play online in the ways like you play like when you're a kid and that, that is so many men are malnourished in that when they come to me and often on retreats, we just play and they're like, wait, what is this? It's like, yeah, we're just gonna play, we're gonna have some fun. And so much learning and growth actually happens in that. You know, I'm thinking about might have been Jonathan Haidt, right. He's been doing all this research about kids and then changing ways they're raised. And I think it was a pretty potent study. They showed that the biggest missing thing right now that is so good for children is when you leave them to figure shit out on their own. And we're like, oh my God, no, they're going to hurt each other. What if someone gets bullied? But it's the difference between a group of kids down the street playing football where they're refereeing each other or a game and having an adult there who's mediating it completely changes the relational capacities that you need to develop. And what they've shown is that's one of the spaces that's disappeared. I feel so lucky, right? I grew up in the 80s, right in that unique transition point of my life. Started totally analog. By the time I was out of high school. There was broadband Internet and I've gotten to experience all of it. But yeah, I grew up on a street where you'd run outside at summer and at nighttime everyone's families would yell dinner. And you'd be expected to kind of run back and have dinner. But we were unmediated out there. Oh yeah, happened. I got hurt, people got hurt. I, I, you know, I got mad at kids, they got mad at me. You know, my feelings got hurt, I got physically hurt. We did stuff we weren't supposed to be doing, but I learned to be in community, you know, to some extent doing those kinds of things. And I think that's just a really rare precious thing these days that there is a hunger for. And you know, a lot of the men's work I lead can happen online now because guys don't necessarily have access to it in their local communities. You know, when you like when you got the lifeline of those discs right in England, there's so many gifts to that. And you know, the thing I'm most passionate about is sitting in circle with men in person, when you can create that because of what it actually brings into your local life and community and how it can make you feel a part of something and the types of experiences you can have. And that, you know, that is a real capacity that young boys and men. I do a lot of work, you know, on dating these days and a lot of the younger guys, yeah, they're terrified to go out into the world and talk to someone or approach them or they just have no spaces where they meet people incidentally anymore. Like. Right. A community or a party where you're not having to do a cold approach because it's not actually cold. It's just someone in your network you haven't met, but they know all your friends, you know, all their friends. So they're right in that sense, a little bit more trustable and those spaces just don't exist anymore. So it becomes this like I'm fishing into the online world or I'm moving through the world, you know, in these kind of non communal spaces. And I just think there's a deep hunger there is for me, you know, and it's one of the things I've appreciated about where I've landed now is I got a lot of local, geographically based community again, because I want it, I need it. And to put down the phone and get offline is as restorative as anything else I can do at these moments. That feeling of, holy shit, I forgot I don't have to even think about my phone or online. And it does create a different kind of immediacy and presence. Right. That I've been doing this thing on some of my retreats now where, you know, I make the offer, like, give me your phone.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Send your loved ones my emergency contact. Give me your phone.

Host: I'll take you up on that in a second.

Jason Lange: The guys who do it like after two or three days are like, woohoo. This is awesome. Why would I ever go back? And then, you know, obviously they go back, but those kind of structured spaces become so precious.

Host: Yeah. Yeah. Well, beautiful. Thank you for all of that. Thank you for what you're doing. I think it's necessary and can only help. So. Yeah. And it's been a real treat just to get to the full. You know, we hung out before. We didn't. You know, we haven't talked about movies. That's okay. We won't talk. We. At some point, you and I will. We'll talk about movies. Yeah, yeah. But. Because that's another. Yeah, that's a whole other world. But it's. It's nice to kind of get the full transmission of, of the work you're doing. And yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm happy you're doing it, so thank you. How can people find out more? What's the. Yeah. Point them where you want them to go.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Main thing you can do to keep up with me is just head over to Evolutionary Men and that's got all my men's work and podcasts and kind of transformational stuff. And then, you know, I still kind of have a few lingering dabbles in the other world. And you can go to Jason Lange me and see some of the film projects I did earlier in my life that are pretty fun and who knows, I may come back to at some point.

Host: Fantastic. Well, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much. And enjoy the Happy Thanksgiving. That's what I'll say.

Jason Lange: Yeah, you too, man. We'll hang out soon. Sa. Sam.