267: What do you do if your masculine role models sucked? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: There used to be these rites of passage for boys to become men. And really all that means, like that fancy term rite of passage in a lot of ways was go be around older, wiser men who teach you and just take you in under their wing and you get to live side by side with them and just, you know, we're human beings and we learn so much through that, through seeing that modeled for us. And as I say, you know, masculinity is a transmission.

Melanie Curtin: Hello all. Welcome back to another episode. Welcome back. Jason Lange, always love to have you. We are talking today about what do you do if your masculine role models sucked? There's so many different ways that this can, this can happen and I think it's, it's one of those things. It's pretty topical right now. It's been, been in the, in the medias. But part of what we wanted to cover is just the power of finding new role models. So we're going to talk about why it matters if your role models weren't good and what kinds of not good there is. And then we're going to talk about, you know, how, how you can make that better. It's interesting because, you know, it feels like when we're talking about masculine role models, for most boys, the original role model is dad. And I would say that there are a couple of archetypes that come up again and again in our clients around dads that didn't role model very well. And one of them is passive and one of them is volatile. I'm curious if you can say a little bit about kind of your own experience with, with masculine role models growing up, particularly dad and maybe, you know, teachers or things like that. But I do want to make sure that we cover both of those because it feels like those are big, those are big themes that come up. Passive dad versus like volatile dad.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. Especially in the work we do. I was more on the passive side just in that, you know, dad worked a lot, he owned his own business, he worked seven days a week and he was pretty much there. And by the time he got home, he would just kind of be exhausted and pass out on the couch and there wasn't a whole lot of time for us to like, do things. Plus I was one of four kids and just a lot of kids and hard to get one on one attention. So, you know, he supported me in the ways he could, but there wasn't, there wasn't a lot of presence. Right. So he was more passive in that sense and he wasn't really active. In guiding or teaching me. And that was, you know, something that caused me a lot of pain and a lot of anxiety actually, growing up, because there were just certain things that I, you know, I taught myself to shave and just those. Those kind of milestones of just. I just. I just figure this out, you know, and that, you know, he was my primary model for the masculine and still is in a lot of ways. Right. That's my first imprint. So, you know, I particularly see that show up if I'm not on top of things in my relationship. It's so easy for me to kind of manifest the energy of my dad in my family, like in my family now in terms of, you know, just being so busy working, not connecting with my wife, not, you know, being fully present for my daughter, who, by the way, it's summer break now, so you may hear her in the background. A little noisier in the Lane household than usual. But. So, yeah, I didn't. I didn't really have a strong male role model. And I, you know, along with that, I wasn't really a sport guy. And so I didn't really get it there either, where. That's another area where a lot of men can get that, which we can talk about in a little bit. But it wasn't, honestly until my mid-20s, when I got into growth and development and men's work and all that, that I. I started having male role models.

Melanie Curtin: I'm glad you brought up the absent dad, because I think that's another thing that we hear in a lot of our clients is dad was sort of fine, right? He was there. He was around sometimes. But there wasn't significant emotional connection. There wasn't a mentor. There wasn't someone, Let me show you how to shave. Let's go to the park together. How's it going at school? Do you like anyone? How is that for you? You know, is there anything you want to talk about in terms of liking someone and how to ask them out or whatever is going on? In terms of romance, for example, I think it's very common for a lot of our men to describe that sense of just sort of floating. Like, I don't really have someone guiding me along. I'm just kind of floating out there. Um, and if that archetype resonates with you, if you feel like you had absent dad or passive dad, it might be worth listening to the episode we did about emotional neglect or just about neglect in general. I will drop that in the show notes because I think that's very revealing of a Lot of patterns that might be going on in your life, in, in your love life and outside of that as well. And I think it's important to, to really acknowledge that, you know, our parents are doing or did. Our parents did the best that they could. They provided what they could provide. And for a lot of us, it wasn't enough to make us into emotionally developed, capable, aware people in the world. We need to fill in the gaps because our parents didn't, didn't do it. And truly, as we've discussed many times, the nuclear family is a very new phenomenon in human history. We have not traditionally been raised by two people or in a lot of our cases, one person. I was essentially raised by a single mom and then I spent my summers with my dad. So a lot of us are being raised by one or max two people, two adults. That was never really the case in human history. We were often around lots of adults and had a lot more involvement and role models. Right. In the past. So there's something important about understanding who our role models were and what they bequeathed to us. Because sometimes it's not enough. Frequently it's not enough, particularly these days, because we're just not. We just didn't get that much exposure in an intimate, involved way. Living with people. Right. We used to live in three generation households. We used to live in villages or in tribes. We used to live with people, we saw them all the time, we ate dinner with them, we were with them all the time. We got to see different families and there was just a larger network. So. So that's kind of archetype number one is passive dad. And can you speak a little bit to sort of your own experience, but also that of our clients of what, what are some of the trends? If you had a passive dad, if you're a man who had a passive dad, uninvolved, absent or just sort of passive person, what happens particularly in your relationship life later on? What tends to happen?

Jason Lange: Yeah, while this can play out in a lot of ways, I do think there's often a correlation with kind of the nice guy energy we've talked a lot about. Because when dad's absent, oftentimes what we'll do is we'll start to turn towards the feminine to get certain needs met or get help or get support or get direction. And you know, it's not that there's anything fundamentally wrong with that, but there's, there's often a different energy. Right. We're getting from the masculine, whether that's a woman holding the masculine in her life or. Or a man. When we don't have a masculine role model in our life, a lot of times guys will start to kind of lean more in towards the feminine. And, you know, one simple thing a lot of our clients have had to deal with is they grow up. Dad's not around, so they're spending a lot of time around mom, maybe mom's friends and aunties kinds of things. And we've heard many stories of in though they would talk about how awful men are. Don't ever be like your dad or, you know, don't da, da, da. And it, at a young age drills something in to a lot of men that, oh, there's something wrong with being a man. I can't. It's not good to be a man. I have to actually try to distance myself from that. You know, sometimes that. Because just issues between mom and dad, you know, are getting played out on the kid there. But that. That's one thing I've heard a lot. It's like, yeah, I was raised around women who would just kind of badmouth uncles or father, stuff like that all the time. And that became my kind of like, oh, that's what's normal. So I can't be like them. And so a lot of times the passive dad, you know, creates passive men. Right. There's maybe a little bit of holding back in life. Not fully taking chance or risk is. Is something I certainly had play out for me. And that a lot of the men we've. We've worked with have had that issue. And then because they've never seen it, even if they get to the point in their life where they realize, well, what I'm doing isn't working right, I'm not getting the relationships I want or I'm not creating the type of work I want in the world, but what else do I do? Like, I don't know what else do I do? Because I did, you know, everything said, I know I don't want to be an in. A lot of the models I have for masculinity in the world, they're just kind of the old school masculinity. And there has been, you know, a pretty big vacuum in terms of. We'll talk a little bit later. Of models of other types of masculine. So passive guys will often just end up connecting more with women, softening kind of their masculinity, which includes their sexuality, which includes their power, because they were raised in an environment that wasn't really welcoming of it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a. That's A great point, and it's something that I see a lot is not wanting to rock the boat. So really a lot of emphasis on not wanting to rock the boat and wanting there to be harmony. So I just want everything to be fine. I want to smooth everything over. I want everyone to be happy. I want it to be okay. And so there's a quality of not wanting to lean into difficult places, not wanting to lead difficult conversations, bring things up, being proactive. There's a lot of avoiding conflict and avoiding making someone else uncomfortable. So whether that's women around sex, which I frequently see, I don't take risks, or I don't. I don't want to make her uncomfortable, so I'm not going to ask her out or I'm not going to check her out. I'm not even going to look right. I'm not even going to give myself permission to look at beauty that I find in the world because I don't want to make her feel uncomfortable or unsafe. And as we've described many times, I think that really comes from a good place and has a lot of value. And there's a balance. There's a balance there. So a lot of. Of. When you've had masculine role models that are passive or absent, you don't know what it looks like to walk the middle path, meaning, not the nice guy archetype, not the asshole. But what is the middle path? What does it look like, feel like? You know, what is it to be an integrated man? What does that actually mean? And, you know, we've. We've talked about it on this podcast before, but I'll just mention it again here, that in my mind, there are really two fundamental energies for men and women. But I'm just going to talk about the male version here, heart energy and energy. Heart energy is connection, emotional development, attunement, awareness, care, empathy, and energy. And. And cock energy, which is not just about. It's not about your penis, although your penis is included in it. And I use the word cock for a reason, which is that energy is drive, it's forward movement, it's risk taking, it's edginess, it's power, it's dominance. It's that arena of things. So you have heart energy and cock energy, and you can imagine that they're sort of like buckets. Like, how full is this bucket versus this bucket? And for nice guys, often heart energy is way full and energy is low. And then for assholes, energy is high, like fuck boys. And heart energy is low. There's not A lot of empathy. There's not a lot of care. And so for nice guys, they know they don't want to be that, so they feel stuck because it's like, well, how do I. What else is there? And what we really want is the balance of them. We want the integrated man who has access to his power and has claimed his energy and is right with his sexuality, and is. Knows that that's healthy and has heart energy. So there's not. It's not one or the other. And I think that can be confusing because, you know, women like the bad boy and all. All of this stuff. It's like, it's not about the fact that the boy is bad. It's not that he's a bad boy. It's that I can feel his fire. I can feel his. I can feel his energy. I can feel that drive, I. That energy, that vitality, that life force. Like, those are all involved in that sphere. And so it's not that I want to choose between them. I don't. I don't. I, as a woman, I want an integrated man. I want a man who has both energies online. And so if you've never been around the healthy, masculine, right, an integrated man, then as a nice guy who was raised by a nice guy, you're kind of like, what the hell does that even mean? Like, what does that actually look like in real life? I don't understand. Understand what that is or how to embody it, really. And so I feel kind of stuck. And I think a lot of the men that we work with have been in that position, and it's been deeply gratifying to watch that, to witness them moving into being integrated. And I'm thinking of one of our clients right now, a recent client who only a few weeks ago was like, oh, dating seems so far away. You know, it's like this is someone that had been married for a long time and just did not feel empowered in his marriage. It wasn't. Wasn't a good scene for a variety of reasons. And. And within a few weeks, I mean, he's not even, I don't know, halfway through the program is dating someone and has had some really great, really great dates and recently sort of boldly asked a woman out that he'd been kind of flirting with for a little while, but never actually taken action on. And he went in and he asked for her number, and she said yes. And he said, I walked out, and I was so surprised. I'd been prepping myself for a no, so I had to Kind of like, take a moment, be like, I think that just happened. I just got a yes. So that's been one of the most gratifying things to me is men that come, that do have a lot of that heart energy, that have a lot of empathy, that have a lot of care already established, and then bringing that energy up, they just. They experience a lot of success because that's really what is. Is being called for. That's what the healthy feminine wants, is we want that balance, we want that both. And if you've grown up without it, without seeing that both, then it's really hard to figure out how to do that, how to do it. And I appreciated too, your. Your mention of the badmouthing of men. That's something I've heard a lot from a lot of men, my friends included. And something I also wanted to say, which is that when there's an absence of the healthy masculine in the home, often the woman steps into that role. Like, while someone needs to do it, someone needs to take charge of things, someone needs to be leading. And so if she's leading, she's taking on the masculine, then not only is the boy not witnessing a man in his power sometimes, he's also witnessing a woman who is resentfully taking on the masculine. And so she's taking care of more than she thinks that she should be. Arguably, she is taking on more than she should. Like there. There should be another aware, attuned, involved parent that is leading conversations and driving things forward and, you know, holding a masculine role. And when that's not there, then she can be overtired, overworked, resentful, and kind of. We've done episodes in the past about reverse polarity where a woman is really in her masculine. And there can be tightness in the body, rigidity, just a certain quality of brittleness. Right. And then the man is sort of like d. What is the word? Just not in his power, more passive, leaning back, absent. And maybe feels like a failure or feels like he's not enough. And so then he absents himself from the home even more. Like stays late at work, doesn't want to be around because he doesn't feel successful, he doesn't feel he's not in his power, and he feels like a failure. And so you have this not great cycle where you've got a boy being raised by. By a woman primarily, you know, in many of the ways that really matter. And not a woman who is, you know, deeply honoring of the masculine because she's been let down by the masculine repeatedly. So I think there's a. There's. There's something around. What is the effect of a man who's not in his power being the dad? There's a ripple effect that affects the entire family system. And I think that's something that is also inspiring in our work, is watching the men in our program who are fathers and how they grow as parents. And they grow as parents and husbands if they're partnered. And in a way that has a positive effect on their whole family system, not just their relationship. It's like, wow, you are now becoming that role model that you didn't have.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. It's so inspiring when we get to see that. You know, it's always like the bonus terms, like, hey, come do a program. You know, we focus on dating and relationships or whatnot. But it. It does transform all relationships, particularly the family ones. And this stuff, it just takes a while to unwind. And part of why we're talking about it is one of the ways we unwind, some of this patterning is by replacing it with healthier patterning. Right. So having experiential interactions with a healthier version of the masculine. And, you know, there's. There's one more, I think, type here we were chatting about, which is like the volatile father. And this is. Right. A father who, you know, in my lineage, we had alcoholic fathers, abusive fathers. A lot of guys deal with that. Expl. Some. It's, you know, not necessarily physical abuse, but just explosive rage. Even if it doesn't go at someone, they can just. Right. Dad, like, gets triggered and explodes. And that type of father, I think, in an interesting way, also often creates two types of sons. One would be often then replicating that and kind of leading a lot with the. The, you know, what we would kind of say. The. The pure energy, just like impulse, anger, aggression. What did you say to me? Like, there's a. There's like a pushback kind of energy that definitely exists in the world, and that is easily replicated in the lineage. You know, my guess is just from having talked to so many listeners, it's not so much the guys that listen to this podcast, but the. The other side of that is in a similar way, I think sometimes guys who are raised around an extraordinarily volatile dad will actually disown just as strongly. It's like the baby in the bathwater. Then, oh, my God, I'm never going to get angry. I'm never gonna talk up, speak up for myself. I'm never gonna, like, have a preference or a want or. Or anything like that. I'm never gonna be sexual with a woman. Like, sometimes that'll come out. So there's actually like a total disengaging from that energy and then can be really hard because then those men can easily be taken advantage of, have a hard time setting boundaries in life in some pretty profound ways. In, you know, all those models we've talked about so far, they just. They're not great, right? They're just. They're really not great. And it does have a major impact, particularly like you said, because of how things have played out at least here. You know, we're in the US And a lot of Western countries culturally of this idea of the nuclear family. So, you know, when you're just living with your immediate family and you only have one male role model in the house, if that male role model isn't embodying anything healthy, you're. It's going to be hard to find it elsewhere. Right. So that the impact, I think, is greater than in previous generations or other configurations of living. And it's just been accelerated and accentuated. You know, there's a. There was a big article in the Washington Post, oh, maybe a week or two ago. Men are lost. Here's a map out of the wilderness. And it was actually written by a woman. And it's quite, quite great, like, really solid. But I think part of that story of men being lost. Now, there are some cultural implications to it, right, that we've. I think we've talked about here before. You know, this is really summarized really well in Robert Bly's book Iron John, which is kind of like a. A go to book in the men's work movement and really kind of part of what started it. And it's just. It's really kind of pinpointing that there used to be these rites of passage for boys to become men. And really all that means, like that fancy term rite of passage in a lot of ways was go be around older, wiser men who teach you and, and just take you in under their wing and you get to live side by side with them. And just, you know, we're human beings and we learn so much through that, through seeing that modeled for us. And is, I say, you know, masculinity is a transmission. So it's something that when we're around it, like, it's like a felt body experience of, oh, I didn't know that was possible. But now that I feel it and experiencing it, there's like a new map that's opening up and becoming available to me. And there's just fewer and fewer places for men to find that these days because, you know, the schooling system, for as great as it is, kind of rips kids away from uncles and fathers. And every year, you know, really, this trend has not changed. The teaching ratios are more and more women and less and less men. So boys are being raised by women for longer and longer in life. And then other than maybe a sports coach or something, it can be, or a Cub Scout or Boy Scout pack leader, it can be hard to come across. And so there's just not necessarily, for, you know, unless we get lucky, a lot of exposure to the healthy male role models, which is a big part of, you know, what we're trying to change in the men's work world in some pretty profound ways.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And I think it's also worth noting that the fatherless phenomenon, the phenomenon of fatherless households and homes is significantly worse in bipoc populations. So black indigenous people of color, there is a racial divide as well. And I think probably a lot of people are familiar, but there's a. There's a video about certain advantages, basically privilege that certain people have versus others. And I think that's worth bringing into this conversation is there is. It's even worse in certain populations. It's even more pronounced. And that the. That gap of more female teachers and fewer male teachers is something that, you know, we, we. We have potential ends to help and to support and mentor children in schools. And that's something that I thought about a lot, is how do we bring more of that into schools? Because so many kids aren't getting the support that they need at home, particularly around emotional development. And that's been something that I'm pretty passionate about. So that's just to say that I'm always interested in programs and things that are happening around the country. And if you're a listener and you know about programs that are. That are helping children, particularly around social emotional development and particularly for boys, I'm very interested. So you can always get me a Dear man podcast. I wanted to go back also to the volatile dad. So, yeah, I wanted to double click on alcoholism. Alcoholic fathers are ubiquitous. Right. There's lots of them. They're all around. We get a lot of clients whose fathers have been. Have used alcohol to numb and to regulate. And it is very confusing because there's. There can be this really weird thing where when dad is sober, he is one person and I get certain needs met. But then when dad is drunk, he's this whole other person and needs aren't met and things are scary and things are out of control. Domestic violence often accompanies alcoholic dad. Sometimes I guess I would just include in here as well just not being aware of what's going on. Right. I'm not. Alcoholic dad is not tracking what's happening in the home. So bad things can be happening to children. Children. Right. They can be being abused or bullied. Right. Things are going on in kids lives and if dad isn't with it and he's not paying attention and he's not checking in, it feels like abandonment. And in a way it is, it is emotional abandonment. So alcoholic dad and volatility in particular, if you are a survivor of domestic violence, if you are a survivor of an alcoholic parent, that is trauma. That is trauma and it's not hopeless. It's not like you can't ever recover from it. We do lots of episodes here about trauma recovery. But it is really important to know that there is a certain physiological phenomenon of wanting to make yourself small. That was how you survived in many homes. That was a survival strategy. It's how a young small person survives. They make themselves small, they make themselves quiet. There's a certain way to hide, not rocking the boat. All of that stuff that we talked about is a way that is a survival strategy. And it's important to note that and honor it and not shame it, but also face it head on, get some help, address it. Because that behavior is not going to work. If you want a healthy romantic relationship, making yourself small, minimizing your needs, not speaking up for yourself, abandoning yourself, all of that behavior that came out of surviving in a scary home isn't going to help you now. We want to honor it and we also want to process it so that you can move into healthy interaction. I wanted to just mention a concrete example of this because I think it can get esoteric, but a male friend of mine was in a relationship, a dating relationship, like eight or nine months, something like that. And they went to a party and they were in a group of people and she said something that really bothered him. And I don't remember what the content was, but it was something like oh, well, yeah, but you know, he. He does this thing and everybody laughed, but he actually felt really weird about it and it didn't. Didn't feel good. So he didn't say anything in the moment. He didn't publicly humiliate her or shame her or attack her, which I think is that archetype of the. The asshole with no impulse control would be like, what the are you talking about? Right. That he would kind of go after her in front of everyone. That's. That's that archetype. And then the nice guy archetype wouldn't say anything, would not want to rock the boat, would feel maybe hurt or hurt and angry, potentially give her the silent treatment on the way home or just kind of withdraw. Right. He doesn't say anything about it, but he just doesn't, you know, just. He's keeping it in, he's hiding it, but it's. It's coming out sideways. Right? There's that. There's that path. And what my friend did was he waited until that conversation wrapped and he said, hey, can I talk to you over here? He took her aside. He said, that didn't feel good. I'm not okay with. With you talking about me like that. Let's talk about it. And they did. And that is an example, just one example of the middle way. It's. This thing impacted me. I want to talk to you about it. This wasn't okay with me. And I'm not screaming at you. I'm not yelling at you. I'm not attacking you. I'm bringing it up. I'm bringing it forward. I am standing up for myself, and I'm not going to the extreme. So I just wanted to bring that up because that's just one small example of how in relationship, what we often see is that path of A or B B is I yell at you. Right. And we don't really see that with a lot of our clients. Right. But we mostly see is the other side, which is. I don't tell you something bothered me. I keep it in. I tell myself it's not that big a deal, but somehow in sideways ways, it comes out. Or I just keep withdrawing until there's not that much closeness between us. There's no intimacy because I haven't told you what's on my heart. Like hurts that little hurts that happen, little resentments. This happens on both sides. This happens with women as well. And in, you know, arguably more often, actually. But this is a really important thing that again, if you're not intimately in people's lives, you're not seeing those conversations, you're not witnessing that. That exchange. And we don't. We're not taught it in school, and we don't really see that necessarily in TV movies and shows. Right. It's like most of the TV movies and shows are all about the honeymoon phase or the meeting, the meet the Meet cute and then getting together, and we don't see how they resolve conflict. We don't see how they process tension. That's not part of the script yet. I think it's coming, but I just wanted to include a concrete example, and I would love to hear if you have any from your own existence, because I think it's helpful to know what we're actually talking about when we're talking about the integrated man, like, the middle path. What does that actually feel like and look like and sound like?

Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, one. One vignette that's coming to mind. So I don't remember the exact context or words, but it was actually when I was assisting one of my teachers years ago, and he was working with another female teacher. And, you know, seminars, like, they can be super stressful. There's just, like, a lot happening. You're juggling a lot. Personal stuff comes up. You're holding a huge group, like, and they were masters. But I remember there was a moment where they were, like, trying to get something ready, and it was like we were, like, backstage, and she was feeling very anxious about something and kind of getting. Getting pretty frazzled. And I just remember. I just. I so intimately remember how he, like, walked in and he just, like, handled her. Like, this wasn't, like, an aggressive thing. This was just like, okay, well, that's fine. We're going to deal this and we're going to move this, and then you can get this, and it'll be okay, and it's all going to be okay. All right. There was just, like, he just stepped right into her anxious energy and just helped walk her through it. That was. Wasn't like, my way or the highway. It was, like, attuning to her needs and helping, like, walk through. Okay, and this is just what we're going to happen or what's going to happen here. And it just always stood with me. I was like, oh, that was like, that's how you do it, right? And in, you know, how. Why I say that's like, how you do it is she was appreciative of that on the other side, right? Like, I could tell, like, it was a relief to her. It wasn't like, oh, my God, this guy's telling me what to do or anything like that. It was like, oh, he brought his masculine presence into my energetic field, and he helped me just guide me towards where I actually want to be right now, you know, and that just always stood with me and was like a. A great example of, you know, when we get to see. When I've gotten to see men who aren't afraid of tension or emotions, and they just step in and just, okay, I'm gonna come right in here. I'm not gonna try to make you feel differently. It's just like, what's going on? Here we go. Okay, we got this. And it was. It's just so, so powerful. So, you know, so. So liberating to. To really see that, you know. And I can also say in the. The, you know, many hundreds of thousands of hours, it feels like at this point, I've done men's work, seeing men also just model how to be with their emotions. So not even just power, but I'm saying seeing a man who's just unflinching and willing to go into grief or despair or, you know, disgust or even shame, like, whatever it is, just seeing men do that and then feeling them come out the other side and, like, what's available in them that wasn't there before is another great example of just this. This type of modeling and experience we can have. And in the first person of seeing that, oh, there's a different way, right? This guy didn't just collapse and he didn't lash out. He got angry, and I felt safe the whole time. Right. That. That's like one of the most powerful things I think we. We can be transmitted from another man is seeing another man be in healthy anger, where it's not aggression and it's like, oh, I'm allowed to do that, allowed to feel that I don't have to stuff all that, and simultaneously, I don't have to be an, like, sign me up. You know, as I. As I saw that modeled, was increasingly able to step into that myself. And that's just one of, you know, the most powerful things of getting around other men, where you get to see these things and get to get these transmissions of, oh, that. That's how. That's how it's handled.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And I. I really appreciate that example of the. That moment backstage, because to your point, all of the work that that man had done to get to that point showed up in that moment, which is when a man is kind of blown out by my emotions. I can feel that. And now I feel like I have to caretake him. So now I have to handle all the things that need to be handled, and I also need to caretake him versus he's solid. He's there. He's not afraid of my frazzledness. He's not afraid of my anxiety. He's coming in like you said, being with me and handling some things and being with me. And that's very, that's also very different from like, God, will you just calm down? I just need you to calm down right now. Right. That is not gonna work either. And I think that's what we've seen, a lot of men have seen. Right. It's like, oh, I noticed she's upset. I'm gonna avoid it or I'm going to shame her for it because I don't want to be in that upset with her. So I'm going to try to get her to change her state or her emotions because I don't want to hang out there. I don't, I haven't done my work around my emotions. So I can't tolerate those emotions in her or I'm, I'm terribly afraid she's going to shame or attack me. So I'm going to, you know, respond in a certain way to that. So I really appreciate what you said about emotional regulation and emotional development. To me, that is the warrior's way for men. The warrior's way for men is learning emotional regulation and emotional development. And what's so unfortunate and heartbreaking about our culture is that the patriarchy tends to shame men for having any emotions other than anger. Well, really, it's just. Yeah. What else do we, men are allowed to be angry or stoic or, you know, the man box or lustful. Lustful, right. But you're not allowed to, to be open heartedly in grief publicly. And I think that, I do think that this is changing. I think this is, I think we are in the midst of a giant shift and we're in this awkward limbo place where it's not totally clear and it's pretty murky. And that's why men's work and personal growth and getting around men who do have the hang of it is so important because there's a lot of just, there's a lot that's in flux. So it's like, okay, I know I want to be quote unquote better. How do I do that? What does that look like? Where do I go? You know, how do I do this? So I, I wanted to also just mention that that word transmission is a big deal and I wanted to kind of explicate that a little bit. So there's, there's what you're taught. So let's say you're in school and you have a teacher. There's what the teacher is saying, there's the explanation, there are the words and Then there's the transmission, there's how the teacher is being. And that is what we're saying when we're talking about. This is a transmission. It is a direct experience with someone. So it's not about the words or the content, it's about the experience. And that is more subtle to talk about, but it is a hundred percent how humans regulate with each other, how we co regulate. We're reading, you know, I read something the other day that said that 92% of communication is non verbal. 92%. So when you're in a conversation with someone, your body is picking up on their body, right? The cues that they are giving off, your body is picking up on. So if they're breathing deeply, if they're grounded, if they are physically relaxed, you are much more likely because of mirror neurons to be grounded and to be breathing and to feel relaxed. This is why, as we've mentioned many times, you as a man, you can't fake it in a certain way. It's kind of like if you want to be really successful with women, and I'm not just talking about dating or sex, I'm talking about relationships as well, you have to actually do the work. You have to actually become more present and more grounded in your body because that's what she's going to respond to. She's not just going to respond to the words, she's going to respond to your beingness. So working on your beingness is the biggest investment you can make in success in relationships. And that is personal growth, work, trauma work. Right? It's somatic therapy, it's coaching, it's getting in communities with other people doing that because that's the foundational work that impacts everything else. And so that woman backstage was not just responding to, okay, we're going to do this and then we're going to do that and we're going to do this and I'm here. She was responding to him showing up, his physical presence, his breathing, his, you know, looking at her eyes, she was responding to all of that. And the sense I got hearing that was like, oh, okay, I'm not alone, I'm not alone. I don't have to figure all this out by myself and I'm accepted, I'm not being shamed. I don't have to change myself. I don't have to contort myself. I don't have to make myself small. I don't have to do something different. I get to be who I am and how I am and I have backup. Any comments on that? Section.

Jason Lange: No, totally. And I think this is. There's. In terms of the transmission, there's another piece I want to just tie in here too, that, you know, so in this body of work, there's. There's kind of a belief structure right around the masculine, that the masculine grows through feedback and challenge. And I, I totally believe this is true inside of all of us. Man, woman, no matter, you know, how you're born or what sex you were born or anything in between. And what that really means is, and certainly what I've found in myself and a lot of men that, that I've worked with is there's actually a deep craving for a type of masculine presence that doesn't let us get away with our. That is actually so attuned to us that notices, say when we're half assing it and when we're not, or when we're not being totally truthful to ourselves about what we want. And this comes as feedback, right? So this comes as someone else giving us feedback about how we're showing up or how we're being present. And there's a way that it, like, can kind of sting when we first start to get that feedback. But it, it's like such a deep longing in so many men's hearts that I know that, that this craving for, like, you could also call it mentorship. You know, it's another thing where men, when someone, they find a man who's like, willing to take them in and grow them, so to speak, like, and I'm going to give you, okay, you're going to do that, and then I'm going to give you feedback what worked, what didn't work. And in that feedback, we grow, we become more aware of ourselves. And that feedback can also come from peer groups, right? It can come from other men who are noticing us, noticing how we're showing up. You know, I can't tell you how many times, even as much work as I've done, I've been like, in a group with deep men. And, you know, I thought I was kind of there, and they're just like, you know, I. You really feel ungrounded right now. Like, I'm just not feeling you. And it's that feedback often that goes, oh. And then something actually reconnects. And then I'm like, you're right. And then I actually have to acknowledge, like, wow, I've been bullshitting myself. I actually haven't been in myself, in my presence, you know, for hours, weeks, sometimes months. But because the other man was from a loving place willing to give me that kind of feedback because they know what I want in the world and they champion me and they love me. They're. They're willing to kind of give that, so to speak. And, you know, the term in this work that again, kind of comes from just classic men's work is iron sharpens iron, right? Other consciousness sharpens our consciousness, and we get to do the same with others. And in that feedback loop, something beautiful really can happen. And I've seen this so many times working with guys in person, right? How quickly they can go to a deeper place or a more powerful place in themselves where when they're getting presence and feedback from another man that they didn't even know they had access to. But when someone is actually there, like no man, like, I know there's more in there. Like, I can feel it. I, like, I believe it. Like, let's go. Let's do this. And then something comes alive like, oh, my God. Something, someone. You know, another way to think about feedback is. May not be the most obvious thing, but it's like someone believes in me. They believe in me enough to. To want me to get my outcome. And for. For so many people, when we don't have that, it's just heartbreaking and it's so lonely and we can be so lost. But when we start to experience that and you know, the amazing news of, you know, as a dad, doing a lot of research around fathering and read this great book recently, the Life. The Life of a Father, I think it was called, and it's so interesting because it talks about how the role of father is. Is really unique in that it. It drastically changes in different cultures way more than the role of the mother, because there's just certain biological things, right. That a mom has to do initially. But the role of the father looks really different in really depending on what's needed in the culture and. And can be played by a lot of different people. It doesn't just have to be biodead. There's something in particular about this masculine presence that we're talking about that, yeah, it's great if you get it from a biological parent, but I think way more than feminine mothering energy. It can actually come from anywhere. And this is what I think makes men's work so important right now, is that even if we are in a place where, yeah, depending on your culture or economic background, you know, there's a lot of fatherless homes, but you really just need. And there's some research that's like one or Two interventions from people holding masculine energy can completely change the trajectory of a boy or a man's life. And it's this, this, this care showing up, this father like energy that can come from anyone. It can come from uncles, mentors, teachers, coaches, friends, coaches, right? You name it. Of all the different things. And it's why, you know, I'm such a huge champion of this work right now, is because the more we do the work, the more we never know when we might be in the right spot to be that intervention from someone else. To just be able to drop in with a, with, with another man or a boy in a moment where they really need to feel, wow, someone sees me and gives a about me. And those little moments can totally transform our own lives and someone else's. And it's something that I've just found so fascinating recently as I've been diving into this of, you know, it's such a flexible and fluid energy in some sense that can come from anywhere. And because it can come from anywhere, you know, what I'm going to argue to, you know, the men listening to this is you have an incredible opportunity to step up and in to other men's and boys lives around you. And the most potent way to do that is to be doing the work yourself and be having other men step into your life and it just becomes this beautiful network.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. And that's something that I've come across in family constellations work as well of connecting to the father field or connecting to the mother field, the wider network of consciousness around mothering or fathering and being able to connect to it even if your role models weren't good and placing people that you trust or like or know in that role, even if they are your age. Right. Or even if it doesn't look like what it needs, what it should, quote unquote, should look like if it was your bio parent. There's a lot of potential and there's a lot of value to connecting to that field. And I've, you know, I've had multiple times of clients saying, I heard your voice in my head, you know, and I felt ready, right, to go approach or to do this thing or to have this hard conversation. And, and it's often like one of the things I'm always telling our clients is you don't have to be perfect, you don't have to be perfect, you don't have to be perfect. So they'll say, yeah, I heard your voice saying, you don't have to be perfect. And that's what had me reach out or to, you know, take the next step. I think that's a good example of healthy parenting. Right. Because a healthy parent gives us those messages. You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to have it all figured out. You're worthy just as you are. I love you. Not because you did something or got the right grade or just. Just because you exist. I love you. And that is a transmission that we can transmit ourselves to others, like you said, and we can receive from the father field or the mother field, even if that bio parent isn't able to provide that for us. One of the things that we've been discussing and where I want to go next is, okay, what the hell do you do if your masculine role model sucks? What do you actually do? And one of the things is, yeah, you seek out role models. You seek out alternatives. You, you tell life, I am looking for healthy father figures or healthy mother figures. I want this in my life, particularly since we're talking about masculine role models. Like, I want healthy men around me. And so men's work, right? Joining a men's group, joining a men's community is a big part of this. That is an actionable step that you can take depending on where you live. There are also online versions. Our program is obviously available and in person work. And we are doing in person work in just a few weeks, which I'd love for you to talk about a little bit. We would love to have you at our workshop, but there are also other workshops of seeking out places where there are men who are growing and men who are teaching other men how to grow. Get yourselves in those environments because those are places where you're going to find that transmission. You're going to be around a man who you're like, wow, I respect. I really respect that. Right. The way that he's talking, like how he's sharing this, it's like, I want to be like that. Right. You want to get yourself in environments where you're going to be around those men. And I have more to say. But why don't you talk a little bit about the. Our upcoming in person work.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Another way. I just want to rephrase what you said. There is. You want to spend with. You want to spend time with men who are deeper than you. Right. Because that's. That those men can guide us deeper ourselves. That is the great. One of the great gifts of the masculine is being able to guide towards depth. And so this is, you know, can be a Milestone in some men's lives when they like, wow, I love, I love who I have around me. And I feel like there's something more, right. Like I, you know, I've been with this group or these guys and they just, they can't grow me beyond where I want to be right now. And that's where the power of men's work here can be so powerful and so just game changing because you can be around different kinds of men who hold different kinds of masculine energy, who have depth, who have wisdom. You know, another last thing I'll just say here, which is, I think, really profound this day and age more than any other, is you also get to have an intergenerational experience. Right. There's not many spaces left where men get to hang out with men older or younger than them, you know, and we've, in our program, we've had guys, I think, as young as 21, up to in their 70s and in live retreats as well. There's something really profound about sitting with a man who's at that later journey point in life and who has just walked through something and has some wisdom, some genuine wisdom to share about that and vice versa. I've seen a lot of older men be totally invigorated and infused by like, wow, you know, all the stories I had about young kids, that's all like, I can see what passion or drive you have and you've taught me something new about, you know, the world or whatever that might be that it, it's needed. And I think we had a lot more of that, you know, back, back before society kind of landed where it did. But so in terms of opportunities, yeah, we have our Labor Day retreat coming up and it's August 31st through September 4th. This is 2023. We're recording this and it's up in Northern California and Mendocino area. And as of now, we only have seven spots left. So, you know, this sounds intriguing. I would move faster than later in. You're going to get to spend time a with Mel and I, just the two you've been listening to right here, but also with, you know, at least 15 to 20 other men who are all coming together because they want to be the deepest, most whole, most alive versions of themselves they can be. And there'll be group practices, there'll be interactive feedback, there'll be embodiment practices. Is. So this is where you can actually start to see and feel different men in an embodied way and see how they handle their emotions and see how they walk and share their stories right with them. And, you know, the one we did last year was. It was just such a blast. It was so deep and so many men had some really powerful transformations. And I think this year is just going to be even more. And this is where the transmission piece really happens. Like, I love Zoom, and we do incredible work with men over Zoom. I mean, it has been mind blowing to me how much transformation can happen through a screen. And I will admit, there's just nothing like getting in a room with guys. There's just the level of energy we have access to, to do kind of deeper work is just so profound. And I think the level nourishment too. I mean, just beyond all the work and the growth. You know, guys coming out of our program last year were just like lit up and full of connection with other men. That really gave them something to go back to their lives with. And as I like to say, you know, the beautiful thing about retreats is a retreat's not going to solve all your life problems, but it's like juice in the battery that'll get you through the next three, six, nine months or until you can do, you know, something else. It's like we go super deep and that sustains us for a long time. And it actually gives us a kind of a milestone in our interiors, even of, wow, I know what's possible inside myself now. So now when I go home and I do my practices or I get coaching or I decide to do some work, I have a sense of where I'm going because I've actually been. Been there in myself. And now it's just going to be about building the habits and the tools and the structures to sustain that long term. And that's really the powerful thing. And I just love doing the work in person.

Melanie Curtin: And I think there's also an element of unsticking energy that's been stuck. So I'm thinking about, you know, a couple of our men from last year had significant breakthroughs. I'm thinking about one specifically where, you know, his. His relationships had just been kind of flat. He'd been with a woman. There wasn't a lot of connection. It was a confusing kind of experience. She sort of took advantage of him. It wasn't a great scene. And he showed up at the retreat and, man, he really went for it. I mean, he really did all of the exercises. And I just remember watching his body and the way that he was breathing after one of the sort of bigger breathwork sessions and noticing his breath was deeper. I could Feel more of, I could feel more of his essence, more of his power, more of his energy, I guess, as we would say. And he is in a relationship now, you know, I think it was only a few months later he met someone and I think they've moved in together and they're on a pretty big adventure, you know, life adventure together. So I think there's deep. If you, if you've been looking for a way to do deep transformational work and unstick some of these places where you can feel that you've just got stuff, right, You've got some gunk in your chakras, as we say. If you've got some stuff and it's stuck and you really want to move it and, and take a risk, I would encourage you to join because if you, if you show up and you really show up, meaning you really lean in, you really do it. Because there is a way to show up and hold back, but there's also a way to show up and be like, I came to play, right? I came to do this like I want to. I'm doing this. You can make significant shifts and you can have significant breakthrough that particularly in the next few months after the retreat. You know, when you shift your body, mind, there's a, there's a quote that says every miracle is preceded by a shift in perception. So if you can help your body mind unstick and have a shift in perception at a cellular level, you will see changes in your life. It's almost guaranteed. It must happen. It will happen. It's sort of physics. So if you, yeah, if you've been interested in looking for something like this, last year, sold out. So I would just say also just grab a spot. Particularly since there are different sleeping arrangements. So we want you to be comfortable. You can just go to evolutionary men. And it's right on the homepage, all the details and the setup and structure and dates and times and all of that stuff. So as we wrap up here, I'm wondering if there's anything else that you have to share around the healthy role models that you have in your life. Right, the healthy masculine role models now and just what that's like for you.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, the first thing I'll say is they have all come from men's work. I mean, this is kind of crazy to say, but the type of men I've had access to because of becoming so involved in men's work is like life changing. I mean, I'm talking about men who just in terms of success in their careers or Places they live in the world. I just never would have been able to have contact with them. I don't have no idea how I would have found my way to them. But the. The powerful thing about men's work and men's groups in particular is, yeah, I have made connections with friends, mentors, peers that I never would have made before. And the thing that's so great about live retreats, I tell you, there's just something about going through challenging shit together as men that bonds men for lifetime. Like, there's guys that I went on retreat with, you know, decades ago at this point that are like, we're just soul brothers. We just. We went somewhere together, and that doesn't go away. And so, you know, I'm in the great place if I just keep adding to that year on year now. But, yeah, I have some men that, you know, in some really crucial ways, have brought me not only father energy, but something, you know, I became really aware of last year, but grandfather energy, just like a type of just soft loving appreciation and championing that I wasn't even aware until I started to get it. Like, oh, my God, Like, I. This has been so absent in my life. And these are men that have helped me through some of the most challenging moments I've had, you know, particularly in the last four years and relationship and becoming a father and career and Covid. And these are guys I can call any time of day who gift me things. You know, I just. My wife and I got to go to Santa Barbara for a night from a friend who just, you know, we're in men's group and he knows some of the stuff that was happening to us. He's like, yeah, we just go. It's just an incredible amount of love I've gotten to receive and support as well on my own journey. You know, a lot of the guys I happen to be connected to now are men's work teachers in their own right, and they've really helped me and given me a roadmap in, you know, one in particular is the living embodiment of, like, oh, that's where I want to end up. Just every time I get to connect with him and he's talking about what he's doing in his life, and he's so passionate about his work, and he's got an incredible family, and it just. And he's traveling and he's doing men's work, and I'm just like, man, you cracked the code. Like, I. I see what it looks like now, and so it's yeah, probably. You know, I. I say out of all the things I've done, you know, I've done psychedelics, meditation, all kinds of growth work. Men's work is the thing that has changed me the most. And at the heart of men's work is relationships with other men and getting exposed to healthy, masculine role models that help me when I'm down, and then, yeah, can. Can hold me accountable when there's something I really care about moving forward.

Melanie Curtin: Wow. I'm blown away. That was a great monologue. I don't think I can add anything to that. If you're interested in joining us, you can go to Evolutionary Men and get all the details there. We would love to see you.