259: Want her to feel safe with you, and free to be vulnerable? Learn to do this. | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Or just what is it we're even doing right now? Again, it doesn't mean you have to like get married to her per se, but just like, you know, the thing you often spearhead of like the check in conversation of just like, hey, here's how it's going for me and you know, here's what I'm up for and I'm curious what's going on for you. And like, that's a version of a plan. Like being able to include in like that awareness of something's unfolding here. And I want to make sure we're as close as we can be in terms of being on the same page around that. So including her in your means you gotta have a plan.

Melanie Curtin: Hey everyone. Before we start this episode, I thought I would just share a cool celebration from one of our graduates. I thought this was a really beautiful reflection as he was transitioning, graduating from our course. He says, if I reflect on what has transpired during this course, I actualized my mantras and quit my job and felt fucking great about it. And now coming into consulting work largely on my own terms, I had back surgery and recovered. Improved my bedtime by an hour while increasing my time asleep by 45 minutes. Dropped two therapists who weren't working for me and instead started EMDR. Dropped the time I spend watching porn, playing games, doom scrolling dramatically, I can't even count it. At least one to two hours a day. Have made a modest but real effort to reconnect with friends. Been 95% successful at eliminating a very bothersome repetitive skin picking habit I picked up during the pandemic. Stayed even keeled with my ex wife as we embark on wedding planning for our daughter and have been, I think, a better, more present listener for my partner and my kids. I also got off Adderall, which I was using to help meet the demands of my job. That's off the top of my head. Would I say the program is responsible for all of that? Perhaps not directly, but the stuff that hasn't come from my personal growth has come from me attacking the causes of anxiety in my life, like my toxic job. And the program allowed me to experience that as me fucking taking care of my fucking self for a fucking change. Instead of me being selfish and putting my entire family at risk of financial catastrophe because I couldn't figure out how to deal with and wasn't able to man up and just take the shit that was being dished at me. That is fucking reframing things. One of the things that I really love about that is all of the different celebrations that come when a man truly takes responsibility for his life and gets the right support, the right mentorship, the right community, the right group, the right men around him that are supportive and witnessing his transformation and cheering him on and celebrating with him as he experiences his wins. There's a virtuous cycle that I've witnessed in a lot of our clients around that and I just thought that was such a beautiful representation of. Yes. Part of the reason that he showed up to the program was sex, relationship, closeness, intimacy. And a lot of the deepest change that comes comes in our whole lives. It's not just in that one area. And I love just him laying out all of the different ways that his life improved. So just wanted to share that celebration and yeah, really proud of you, you know who you are. We're so happy to have you as a part of our community, as part of our world. And without further ado, we'll get into the epis. Hello. Welcome back to another episode. We are talking about safety and trust and claiming today. Claiming energy. And I'm excited to do this episode because I think this is one of it's a little bit of a subtle topic, but it feels like it's of paramount importance. And research wise, it was great because I, I sort of polled my women about this and so we have some really great quotes to share with you today on the topic of claiming and what it feels like for us as women to be claimed and what it feels like to not be claimed. So this is Jason episode. Jason, welcome back to the podcast. So happy to have you. And for those who don't know, Jason and I co coach together. So we'll be referencing our clients and that's what we're referring to when we talk about that. So before we sort of start on this, I'm curious for you as man. And we're also mostly going to be talking about men who have sex with women and women have sex with men in this episode. But claiming can really show up in any relationship and we're mostly focusing on love relationships today, although we will also talk about friendships and other things like that. But I'm just curious for you as a man who does has dated women and is married to a woman, what has your own journey been around claiming, around the bringing the energy of claiming to women, what was it like for you before and what is it like now? Because it feels like you've been on kind of a transformational ride around that.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say early on it was not something I was particularly strong at. For those longtime listeners know my story. I was a very late bloomer and didn't have a whole lot of experiences and kind of stumbled my way in after a lot of work to starting to have some actual relational experiences with women. And my early ones, you know, there was not much I was claiming, not many women I was claiming in a sense, partially because I didn't really know what I wanted other than, you know, to have sex and to have some experiences with women. And so it was not something I was very strong at bringing like additional clarity about what I was thinking about what was happening with us, where it was going. And you know, my first girlfriend, innocence I didn't really claim at all. It's just kind of, we fell into it, that kind of thing. And then because of a lack of claiming, we fell out of it in a pretty hard way, you know, like, because there wasn't a lot of clarity and definition about what we were doing. And that was big challenge for me at the time and something I got a little better at moving forward from there. But that, you know, as a self described nice guy, I would say I fell prey and have fallen prey to many of the things a lot of the guys we work with do as well in that, you know, definitely after doing the work, got better at connecting and flirting, but not better at this necessarily, this claiming part necessarily. Even with the early experiences, I'd say with my wife now wife, then dating partner.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I guess before we go further, we should sort of define what we mean by claiming. And I think that this is a great topic because you can kind of share your experience as a man. Your experience of not claiming, which to me feels like wandering. Not claiming to me when you, when you talk about it feels like I'm sort of floating, I'm sort of wandering, I'm kind of looking around. I don't really have a direction. I'm not really choosing. I'm sort of, kind of taking things as they come or just there's a lot of vagueness. It feels like an energy of vagueness. And I'm wondering if that's how you would describe it and how you would sort of define. Define claiming. What does claiming mean to you? And then I can share mine.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think wandering is certainly a, a great approximation of the energy. And it's not like wandering in the sense like, oh, I want to check this out or I want to check this out. It's just kind of wandering in the sense of not really clear where I'm Going, and I'll circle back to that in a minute. But yeah, from my experience, claiming is. And this is an important thing, it's not the same as committing. There's a difference there. You can claim someone without actually committing to them in the ways we often think of, in the ways men are often kind of stereotyped as being afraid of commitment or not being willing to commit. They can relate, and there's times where they do, but I really want to make clear that they don't necessarily always relate. There's a way you can claim in the moment. And, you know, for me, it really kind of comes down to, you know, we'll get a little more on the esoteric side of sometimes what we talk about, but it's, it's. It's when my awareness includes her. So I'm intentionally bringing her into my field of awareness and holding her there. And that's an important thing. And the moment we do that, it often changes what we're paying attention to, what our decisions of and our experience of her and what she wants. And so additionally, you know, with that, I think there's a sense of just tracking, even if I don't know where this is going, tracking that there's a here and a there, that there is. There is some kind of movement that's happening now because we met, we're interacting, whatever that might be. And that a natural question for most human beings is, oh, well, then, what next? What next? And even if you, you know, even if I don't know what's next as a man, holding that question in my awareness with her starts to really bring some of this claiming online. I'm aware I haven't really talked about where this is going with you or, or I can lead a conversation of. I'm not sure what I'm available for right now, but here's my truth. And then suddenly, you know, she's let in and I can get a take from her. So for, to me, that's a big part of it. It's the awareness piece, a slightly more tangible level, which we'll give you an example of in a. In a bit here from my own life. There's another flavor that's just hitting me, which is. It's also like broadcasting that. What I mean by that is.

Melanie Curtin: It'S.

Jason Lange: Not just like holding her and my awareness, but it's kind of allowing other people to know she's part of my awareness. And, you know, this is, this is one that we can talk about when I give my example shortly that I Think is important.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And there's something interesting about. I really love how you phrase that of a man holding me in his awareness. And I would say that one of the men that I've been with, I feel like did this really well from early on. And the way that I described it to him once was, it feels like being cared for by you is like being in the middle of a giant marshmallow. Like, I can kind of feel your attention wrapped around me. And I can. I can. I can feel it. It's not something specific that you're doing or saying, but it is little. Little moments of tracking of, I remember that you have a call tonight or how did that thing go? Or I would like for us to see each other this week. I want to see you this week. Here's my schedule. When are you free? It was a bunch of little things put together, but it felt like this warm hug. Right. And the result of that was that I felt safe, I felt secure in the relationship. And when I asked my women about what does it feel like to feel when you don't feel claimed versus claimed? One of the words that came up repeatedly was, when women don't feel claimed, they feel confused. There's a lot of, like, I don't really know what's happening. And when they feel confused, they feel anxious. So I'm just going to read a few answers. One woman said, when a man doesn't claim me, I feel anxious and stressed and find myself not wanting to be vulnerable. And then another woman said, it feels confusing. Like, huh? I'm like, what is happening? I feel anxious and unsettled, and I don't want to open up and be vulnerable. I feel wary and the need to be hypervigilant. So I think there's something really interesting if you, if you as a man out there listening, have had the experience of women feeling closed off to you or anxious or not relaxed, and this could be your woman partner, this could be your wife or your girlfriend or whoever, or a dating partner or just women in general. I think this is an important concept because the way I as a woman show up and this happened repeatedly with the answers I got from the women was I show up differently when I feel claimed. So the version of me that you're going to get is going to be different. I'm going to. I'm going to be more radiant, I'm going to be more open. I'm going to feel happier. I'm going to be more vibrant. There's a different version of me versus if I don't really know, you know, what's happening or whether you're interested or how interested you are or what we're doing or any of that. I feel more unsettled, like that woman said in my stomach. And so just a quick example of this is one of my women friends recently went out on a first date and it went really well. And they. They even like made out on the date. And then it ended kind of abruptly. He just sort of left. There was a public transportation thing. And so it was like, oh, there's the bus. I have to go. But there was no clarity around. Are we doing this again? Do you want to see me again? You know? And then she didn't hear from him for like two days. So by the end of day two, she was pretty stressed out. Like, I don't know. I'm unclear. I'm unsure what's happening. I think that's just a small example of that would have been really different if on the date, towards the end of the day, at some point he said, I'm having a great time and I would love to see you again. You know, no pressure, but just so you know where I'm at, that's what I want. And I think that's what we're talking about, in the spirit of claiming, is that it's not a big grand thing. It's just being clear about what you want and being willing to state it to her, right? To actually share it with her, to. To let her in on your world around that kind of thing. And we'll go into more examples of that. But just as an example, I think that's a good one of her whole nervous system would have felt a lot more relaxed and a lot more radiant and like, oh, like, yeah, I'd like to see you too. Right? And you can hear in my voice, it's like, oh, if he had said that in that way, it would have felt completely different for her. It would have felt completely different. So. Because when I spoke to her, she had just. The date had just ended. And despite the fact that it a date, she felt un. Clear and unsure. Like she didn't feel great in her body. So that anxious, unsettled, hyper, vigilant feeling then impacts how she shows up with him. So then when he reached out, it felt a little crunchy because by that point she was like, oh, I didn't even know that you were still interested. Like, it just wasn't. It didn't feel as good. So there's something about clarity that when. When the Masculine brings clarity and is willing to claim in this way. It generates saf and security on the other side.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that's a beautiful example of, you know, we talk a lot about directionality when it comes to the masculine, and I think that's deeply related to claiming. Again, that doesn't necessarily mean commitment, but it's being clear about where are we now and what's happening next. And I think if we're not holding that, that's when the, the feminine will often have to tighten up a little bit because it's like, well, I don't know what's happening here, but when we can bring that, there can be a relaxation into that from, From. From the feminine in some pretty powerful ways.

Melanie Curtin: And I think actually another good example of that is there was a man again, a woman friend of mine, where he invited her, this was like their second date, and he invited her to come over and he would cook for her, which is a really nice invitation in some ways. It's also like, okay, am I going to be safe? Right. So as a woman, my attention is often on safety. And I have women friends who've been date raped. I've only been out with this guy once, you know, and he had no awareness or attention on the risk that she would be taking by coming to his apartment. And I think that that's it. It's not exactly claiming, but there is a sense of, I would like to invite you over to my apartment to cook for you, and I want you to feel safe. Is that something that you would feel comfortable with? Just his awareness of safety would have me feel more safe going. When a man doesn't have any attention on that as, As a possibility, it was just a casual. Because in her case, it was just a very casual, like, well, how about we do this? There was no attention. Right. Presence around what that could mean for her. So I think there's an element of, yeah, holding. Right. That's like you can offer, you can claim without being dominant. And I think that's something that a lot of our men have their attention on is they don't want to be dominant, they don't want to be a dick, they don't want to be an asshole. And so they've leaned back, they've hesitated or from leading in their lives, particularly with women, because they don't want to dominate. And one of our men put this beautifully the other day. He said, I never want to take away a woman's power. I never want to take away her power. And so I've not actually made plans or he didn't say it like this, but kind of taken my own agency seriously because I've wanted so badly to not take away her power. I don't want to make decisions for her. I don't ever want to be a man who's dominating. And so I'm going to swing all the way to the other side of the pendulum. And I think that's one of the beautiful things that we've seen in our work with men, is watching men like him learn how to actually lead. And like, oh, I can do this. I can actually bring my full self. And the responses I get again are so much better. I'm getting better responses from women. They want this from me. And then the version of them, right, the version that's showing up is the one that we were talking about of lit up, radiant, excited, wants to be around him versus I don't think this man ever knew. Like, why is this so hard with women? Why is, why is it not working with them? It doesn't seem like they like me or they're responding to me in the ways that I want. It's like, if you're not bringing some claiming energy, then you're not going to necessarily get that lit up, radiant version. You're going to get the maybe more anxious or more like, well, I have to take care of it. He's clearly not making a decision or a plan, so I'm going to do it. But then now I'm resentful of that fact. So now I'm showing up, right? I'm showing up in a totally different way. I might show up for a date, but I'm annoyed that you didn't make a plan or I didn't feel claimed or you didn't have any awareness of what might be going on for me safety wise. Like, that's a different version of that woman that you're going to be getting. And so, but if you're a man, you're like, well, I guess women are like this, right? Instead of, oh, when I bring more of this claiming energy, the polarity shifts and things tend to get easier. Any comments about that?

Jason Lange: It works and it does make things a lot easier, I have found. And again, the key part I think of all of this is a lot of it has to do as a man of you got to be connected to yourself, to know you, what you want, to be able to be clear in a sense. If all your attention is just on her, it cannot work. And we can see the kind of nice guy syndrome Comes up if I don't want to overstep or dominate or be too aggressive or something. And this was something, you know, that definitely showed up for me. I actually thought of another example, you know, my first girlfriend, once we were out and I think we were at a bar or something where there was like dancing happening, like partner dance kind of stuff. And I didn't know how to do the dance at the time. She really wanted to dance and so I just kind of backed off and let her dance with a whole bunch of people and was not what she wanted in the sense she would have rather had me poorly try to dance with her and make it clear to everyone in the room that, yes, you can dance with her, but she's actually with me. But I didn't do that. I just kind of hung back, which was one of my tendencies that then, you know, that caused some friction for us in that moment. And then the stronger example I'm going to share is early on, when I was dating my wife, I actually did take her to a polarity night. So an evening where we got to practice relating in these different ways. But the nature of the night was you don't just practice with the person you bring. So you rotate throughout the evening. And I was super into the work at the time and it was kind of new to her and I was like, oh, I really don't want to, you know, intrude on her experience. I want her to be able to have her own experience. That's not me being like a clingy, needy dude. And so I kind of just again, I like laid back and I just kind of let her do her thing and I was doing my thing and, you know, briefly checked in with her, I think maybe halfway through on break. And then I just got right back into it. And then by the end of the night, she was quite upset with me, was quite upset with me, and I was a little total. I was kind of totally caught off guard. But thankfully she was able to kind of communicate that literally. She did not feel claimed by me that night. And that's where I kind of want to put out this. This is where it's the two part thing of I actually was holding her in my awareness, but I wasn't pushing it out at all in the sense of she didn't know I was holding her in my awareness because I was not bringing that energy out to her or making it clear to other people in the room. And that was a moment where she felt hurt in that like, oh, our. Her experience was because she didn't know what was going on in my inner world was, oh, is he maybe interested in other women here tonight? Because he's not coming towards me. So I don't know. I thought this was going well between us, but, you know, maybe not. And what there was a desire of was me to like check in with her at a deeper level and quite literally to make it clear to other people that I had brought her there and we were a thing. This is that there is a. So there can be a social component to this, which is what I mean, kind of pushing it out that I, that I, I just want to highlight there that she came to that, you know, even though it was a rotating partner practice thing, she came to that in the container of me and by me not claiming her, you know, she had to energetically put up the barrier in the shields of, hey, guys, I'm not available. Right. So she couldn't actually relax into the practices in a deeper way. Because there's that level of awareness a lot of women have to hold of if I look this guy in the eye, is he going to think I want to sleep with him? Or, you know, whatever that might be. Which lands a little differently. If we had really clearly walked in together, I had introduced her to the people I was knowing, I would check in with her, consistently touch her, you know, send those signals that tell the room, oh, this woman is with me. So, you know, off dudes in some sense. And that was a big learning experience and growth experience for me. And you know, again, this is kind of more on the practical side, but I will say this is an area that I think I've seen a lot of men just wander around in the sense of. And this isn't for all women, but I think the, the energy around social networking, relationship status ties back into the deeper versions of this around claiming. Because there's, there's one, you know, yes, we're in a great relationship and doing, we're doing really well, but there's, there's a deeper level of. And now you're pushing our connection out into your network so everyone else knows. And that was that, you know, that's something I remember was an issue for us. Like, you know, I just wasn't really thinking about it. I know men who have gotten into huge fights with their partners because they're, you know, they didn't understand why it was so important to their partner and things like that. And I think it's because of this, because it's, yes, I want to be held in Your awareness. And, you know, there is a social component that I want other people to know. I am a priority for you and this is where your attention is right now. And that there is something to that in a claiming of that of as we kind of, you know, let people know or, you know, even on the non social network level. I've seen this with, you know, men who just haven't taken the time to invite a woman to meet certain friends or certain family that are clearly part of their life. And there's like a. Well, if we're not doing that, I kind of feel like you haven't really claimed me because you're not claiming me inside your social network. You're not making it clear that I'm in your awareness in the relationships that are most important to you. And that's something, you know, I still have to work at sometimes to remember to do that kind of stuff with my mom. But I'm certainly way more better at it. Of like, yeah, no, like it's much easier for me to hold my partner in my awareness now and gotten much better at showing that affection and that holding and that connection when we're out. That does make it clear, which again, you know, nice guys might think in because I thought like, well, I don't want to be too needy or aggressive or domineering. But there's actually a deep level of service in that because it does. It literally creates a container for the woman to be able to relax into. Of, oh, other people know he's got his attention. He. Other people know we came together. Right. It's something that, you know, later on a wedding ring can do a lot of the work of, of kind of creating that little psychic bubble. But particularly before then, one of the greatest ways you can serve your woman, I think as a man is to make that clear when you're going out into social arenas that, yeah, to, to do the things to claim her, to make it clear you're connected with her in an intimate way and that, you know, unless you're in a different container, that, yeah, she's not available for that right now.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I, I can. I would just highlight what you said about feeling protected. So for me as a woman, I think that there's something that feels, again, that word safe, secure there' that feels safe to me about a man who has brought me somewhere, kind of making it clear like, this is the woman I brought. This is who I'm with. I'm with this woman. Hand on the small of my back, just little gestures, just attention on Me coming, checking on me. And I think that for a lot of men, they don't want to be the jealous asshole and they don't want to be possessive and they don't want to feel again, domineering, dominating. They don't want to dominate. And I would imagine, you know, that language you used we've heard from a lot of guys. Well, I was just letting her do her thing. Like I'm just letting her be, I'm letting, allowing her space. And I think that there's nothing wrong with that per se, but you might find that you run into this and I think the whole, I feel like as we've discussed many times, there's kind of the heart energy and the energy in, in the masculine. The heart energy is connection. It's, it's, it's heart based. It's sometimes, I guess you could use the word soft. It's allowing. It's generally associated with feminine traits. And then there's masculine energy or energy. And I use that word for a reason, which is there is a way that it's provocative, it's assertive, it's forward, you know, facing. And when these are out of balance, when there's a lot of heart energy and not a lot of cock energy, then you're gonna see things like this of like hanging back a lot and not wanting to rock the boat and, you know, passivity, like more behaviors like that, traits like that versus too much energy, which is dominating. It's jealousy at the extreme end of it. It's domestic violence. It's property. You are mine. I own you. It's too much of that and not enough heart energy is the patriarchy. And I think what a lot of men miss and a lot of what our work is, is bringing these into balance. So you can, as a man have both of them online. You can be an integrated man. And that's really the sweet spot. That's really what she wants. And that's really what we're talking about here when we're talking about claiming. Claiming is healthy masculine energy coming towards her. And when you know how to do that, when you can nail that man, your whole sex and dating and relationship life is going to change. And that's true whether you're in a dating phase or you're in long term relationship. And we have seen, we have witnessed men bring more of their energy, more of their masculine forward in relationship. And it has changed things, right? It has improved the sex, it has improved the intimacy, it has shifted the way that she feels with him. And a Lot of good has gone on because of that. So. So let's go back to briefly just then, the non claiming part. I just wanted to read a few more things from women talking about that and a quick, very, very quick story for my own life. Similar to the woman I mentioned where I went on a first date with a guy and it went well. I thought it was fun. And then there was something. There was. I don't know if you've had this experience, Jason, but there was something like, yeah, let's do something weekend, right? It was something like that. I think we'd gone on the date on like a Tuesday and it was like, let's do something this weekend. Either I said it or he said it. I don't remember. And then by Friday, I was annoyed. Like, by Friday I was like, should I make plans with my friends? Are we doing something? I don't really want to be the one that's driving this part forward. Like now I'm kind of annoyed. And I ended up actually telling him that, which is rare. I don't normally communicate, and I think a lot of us don't normally communicate very much in dating because it's scary. But I basically let him know, like, hey, I would really love if you made our plan this weekend. Are we getting together? And I'm feeling a little anxious because I don't know what's going on. And I did that in part to see how he would respond. And he responded really well. But I think it's a good thing for a lot of you listening to know that there's something about you making a plan that came up repeatedly. So one of the women said, when I don't feel claimed, I feel like he's not respecting my time, not planning out dates and adventures, not standing up for me in situations where I feel hurt, not being supported or playing devil's advocate against me. In conversations, one woman said, not feeling claimed feels like he's walking away in front of me and just leaving me in the dust, like, keep up or just stay home. And I think that's an interesting one because there is a feel. There's a feeling in my body as we're talking about it. When I don't feel claimed, I feel alone. When I don't feel claimed, I feel alone. And. And to your point, Jason, when I don't feel claimed and I feel alone, I feel my armor coming on. Like, okay, well, if I'm not going to be protected by him, I gotta protect myself. I'm gonna do this. Like, I got this I know how to do this. I can suit up. Like. And so then that's the version of me you're getting. And you can hear the difference. You can feel it and see it and hear it. Like, that's. That's where I am now. Like, I'm not. You don't. You don't got me. I got me. Because you're not doing it. Like, you're not doing it. And I think a lot of us women, you know, our path is often to soften and to allow. And to allow him to come in and claim. And it really helps if you know how to do it. There's a different version you're going to get. So a couple other responses were lack of planning and investment in time with me. Leads with what I can do for them won't share their own depth. So again, I think that the. We've done episodes about this of, like, one of the things she really craves is your leadership. And one of the ways you can lead is literally making the plan. Making a plan. It doesn't have to be an elaborate plan, but just a plan. And in relationship, that can even be. I'm noticing we need to have a deeper conversation about what we're doing for the holidays because there are a lot of moving parts. I would love to take you to brunch on Sunday so we can hash some of that out. How does that sound? That's leading versus her bringing it up. Right. It's like there's. There's just something about you bringing it up, creating a space, leading.

Jason Lange: Just.

Melanie Curtin: There's something about that, that. That is soothing to us, to me, to the feminine. I think that it's good for you to know about because you don't even have to be perfect at it. It's just like, oh, he's thinking about that too. Great. Because I don't want to. I don't want to be the only one that's holding the structure in the relationship.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I. I want to highlight that word plan, because it was one I'd written down as we were coming in, is obviously, I'm not a woman, so I can't share that. That perspective. But from my perspective as a man, you know, my partner currently, now, and the others, I did find some success in claiming, so to speak. One way I could maybe describe that. Is her feeling part of the plan? So she's actually part of a plan, like, meaning I'm part of. I'm part of your life plan or what you're thinking about in your life. Again, you're holding me in your awareness as you're navigating forward. And that I think that's where, you know, I've certainly known women who can get pretty frustrated in terms of, like, great relationship, like, awesome being with a man. The interactions are great. And there's never any conversation about where it may go or what it may lead to or just what is it we're even doing right now. Again, it doesn't mean you have to, like, get married to her, per se, but just, like, you know, the thing you often spearhead of, like, the check in conversation of just like, hey, here's how it's going for me, and, you know, here's what I'm up for, and I'm curious what's going on for you? And like, that's a version of a plan, like, being able to include in, like, that awareness of something's unfolding here. And I want to make sure we're as close as we can be in terms of being on the same page around that. So including her in your plan means you got to have a plan, which is an important piece. There's also this word that, you know, sometimes comes through in this world that might be another way to think about this, I think, particularly on kind of the longer term. But again, even in, you know, the early date with my wife at this event is chosen. It's a woman feeling chosen that, oh, he is choosing me. Which one way to think about that, that we've often talked about with our guys and, you know, I've been talking about more and more, is that, oh, his awareness could be anywhere, and right now it's here with me. So I feel chosen, right? I feel chosen that he invited me to this event or to this thing or that he tracked. Tracked something I wanted and it came, you know, followed through on it last year. There's like, I'm. I'm. I feel chosen to be part of his attention. And when the feminine feels that oftentimes feels good, feels. Feels like warm and gooey, at least from what I've witnessed. And in my own way, you know, I've had people choose me and claim me in different ways. Not even necessarily just romantically, but it's like, oh, yeah, great. I feel. I can feel that. And I feel care and love and trust emerges from that. But, yeah, those two pieces of, you know, her feeling part of a plan and being able to feel that plan and then her. Her feeling chosen are other kind of just other ways to think about this idea of claiming or being claimed or Claiming a partner.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great point about feeling chosen. Because I think as the feminine, one of the ways that I feel radiant is when I feel special, right? And when I feel chosen, I feel special. I feel like, oh, I'm, I'm the one that you picked or that you're picking. Like, it feels really special. And I remember an early date with a man that I was interested in was a, it was like a party gathering thing that I was part of throwing. And long story short, I was over on one side of the room playing guitar and he was over on the other side of the room chatting with some of my friends. And one of my girlfriends told him, she was like, you should go hang out with her. Like, you, you, you came to be with her, but you haven't really been with her. She's going to want you to go be with her. And he did. He came over and he like, like made it very clear, I'm with you now. And later I said, I told him, like, that was one of the reasons I really liked you. That was one of the reasons I wanted to go out with you again was because I did. I felt chosen, I felt special. And until that point, I was feeling a little bit like, insecure, like, do you still like me? Do you want to? Like, what is happening? All of that unsureness that we were talking about and I think that he had that same like hanging back quality, which I did want to just come back to because I just want to legitimize for a lot of men that there's probably a good reason that you have that if that's going on for you. Some men have a background of bullying. Some have had really traumatic experiences, whether in childhood, in school, you know, there's something brave about claiming, there's something brave about stating what we want and being clear about it and going for what we want. So in my experience coaching men, it's never like, I'm just lazy or maybe I suck at this, or I'm just never going to be good at it. I have witnessed countless men from all walks of life learn how to do this. This is not rocket science. And the truth is there's a good reason why you probably haven't been doing it if you haven't been doing it. And it's probably something that happened to you. So I guess I just want to normalize that and say, if you're like, God, I really suck at this, I'm not good at it, first of all, you can get better. Trust me. We've seen it repeatedly, and it makes a huge difference. But also, give yourself a break. And I'm hoping that you can walk us a little bit through your own version of this, because it wasn't random. It wasn't that you were just not good at claiming. There were serious, legitimate reasons why that wasn't a strong suit for you that you then grew into. So can you talk briefly about that and then we'll. Well, totally.

Jason Lange: In short, I was disembodied. I didn't have a clear sense of direction. I had some, you know, sexual shame still. And I didn't know how to have hard conversations or lead them, you know, in per se. That just was not part of my family system at all. Like talking about what is actually going on here and what do we all want and how can we collaborate to get that? So often I didn't know what I wanted because I wasn't in my body and I wasn't connected to it. I didn't necessarily have a firm sense of direction in my life myself, independently of her, which made things harder. And then, yeah, I didn't know how to get into that relational space to kind of make clear some of this stuff and have some of these conversations. And oftentimes it was just driven by fear, you know, quite honestly, like, there's just a lot of fear driving it. And again, kind of defaulting to space because I didn't want to be one of those guys or too aggressive or seem needy or whatever, but then often course corrected too much, right. In terms of then not being able to really show up in that way. And I do kind of want to pivot here for just one second because I think this is a perfect moment for it. Of those are some of the reasons I struggled to claim in a couple of reasons I've also seen just in men we've worked with and having sat and, you know, hundreds of men's groups at this point. A big part of it, you know, particularly around claiming, can often be for men not knowing what we want and not being clear about our own direction or purpose in life. It's a big part of it. I often also hear from a lot of men, I'm not sure yet. And I'm afraid of hurting her. Like, oh, I don't, you know, I have a little doubt or I'm not sure if she's my person. So, you know, I don't want to. I don't want to lead her on. So I'm not going to talk about, you know, three months from now, six months from now, and I don't, I don't want to hurt her because what if, you know, what if she's not my person? And I, I don't know, is a big one. And then I think tied to that, something I certainly had to learn to work through, and I've seen a lot of men learn to have to learn to work through is to be able to trust them cells to get out when they do get some kind of clear signal in their body that, oh, this isn't my partner. And so because they don't really trust that they won't go all the way in. And then there's like one toe in, one toe out. And, you know, this kind of paradigm, we've definitely worked with some men around of kind of, they're in it, but they're again, they're not really claiming her, and they're not claiming her because they're not sure if she's the person they want to claim. And a lot of that has to do with more what's going on for them sometimes than necessarily what's even going on in the relational context. But that, you know, and this is why a big part of the way we work with men is helping men get into their bodies and get clear about what they want and where they're going and what their vision is. Because then it becomes much easier to kind of meet someone and be like, oh, I could see them fitting into my life here. And so, yeah, I want to do this, you know, and then suddenly there's like a relaxation in terms of how to communicate and have these conversations and a trust that, you know, claiming a woman doesn't mean I have to spend my, the rest of my life with her. Oftentimes it just means presencing. Like, I'm really valuing this connection right now, and I want to keep exploring it with you. And you could, you can live that day to day, right? The commitment doesn't have to be more than a day in some sense at a time, but there's that continually reminding that, yeah, like, I'm in for what this experience is right now is a place I've definitely seen men get to that does start to change things. Because then, lo and behold, their, their, their woman's not showing up all stressed up and guarded all the time. And then, wow, they see this incredible energy and life force and vitality come through her and they're like, like, this is amazing. You know, and then sometimes they'll actually end up committing because they're like, this is incredible. You know, I I do want you part of my life for a long time. And I want to have that structure we can both relax into.

Melanie Curtin: And that's, I think, why it is important to do the deeper work. Because if you, if you are, if you notice yourself holding back a lot or you're not able to move forward, if you don't feel able to actually do it, there's something going on, there's something deeper going on that needs to be explored and needs to be witness, needs to be healed. And until you do that, you're not going to get different results. And I think that's the illusion sometimes, like, oh, well, then it's when it's the right person or eventually I'll grow out of it or it'll somehow solve itself. I think that what we've seen repeatedly is without your focused attention on it, it doesn't tend to resolve itself. But with your focused attention on it, a lot can transform in a very short amount of time. So I want to move now towards what it feels like to be claimed and some of the kind of, of successes that we've seen in the men who've learned how to do this. So for women, one of the things that they said was when men claim me, I feel clearer and more grounded and I feel like I can be more fun and playful. And it was interesting reading a lot of the answers because that, that came up several times was safer grounded and then fun and playful. So here was another one. When I feel claimed, I feel safe and held. It makes me trust him and his leadership, guidance or direction. I can surrender and experience joy and be playful. I'm more willing to come along for the ride without having to worry about all the nitty gritty details like whether I'll be protected. I'd follow him anywhere. So there again is that sense of safety. Like when there is a container. When I do feel cleaned. I remember one of my women friends saying she went to a club and she had gone outside and a couple of men had approached her from the street. And right at that moment, her, the guy that she was with came out and just put her, his hand on the smile of her back, like, I'm here, I'm right here with you. And not in a possessive way. Not like, back up you, this one's mine. Like, I'm not talking about bullshit. I'm just talking about, I am here with you. I am here with you. I am paying attention, I'm right here. And again, you can only really do that if you are okay in yourself. If You've done enough work where you feel right and okay, because if you've got, if you've got trauma from your own stuff around those guys that had walked up, you might hold back, right? You might not want to come outside. There might be something in the way of you showing up for her and you gotta handle that, that has to get handled. But in this case, she was like, it felt really good. It felt like, oh yeah, ok, okay, I don't need to be scared. Like, there's nothing wrong here. I'm safe, like I'm protected. And they ended up having a great conversation and they moved on. But she remembered feeling like a little bit unsteady, a little bit unsure and like, I don't know, should I go inside? What should I do? And then the man she was with came. And to your point, they weren't married, you know, they were just dating. But it felt really good. It felt secure, felt safe. Like I'm here, right? And, and yes, I came with this woman. Like this woman is with me, I am with her. And there was something that felt, yeah, safe about that. Doesn't have be just the jealous possessive. It can be a healthy masculine showing up to just say, I'm here, I'm right here. And then, yeah, I think I wanted to just touch on a few just of our guys who kind of leaned into this. So one of my favorite stories, which I think I've actually shared before, but pretty recent, was a guy came into the program and one of his biggest goals was just, just I want to be able to approach women and, and I just want to be able to do that. Like right now it's like I go into freeze. I can't. My just whole system shuts down. I, you know, my just throat closes up like, I can't, I can't do it. I physically can't do it. And a huge success he had was met a really attractive woman in a store. I think she was a cashier or someone that was working there, you know, left the store, was like, I really liked her. I think she's really cute. I want to ask her out, out. And he was able to because of all of the work that he had done and how, how far he'd gotten, he was able to go in and ask her out. And it doesn't matter what her response was. The, the win is not whether she says yes. The win is whether you're able to ask. The win is whether you can go after what you want. So to me, he has cultivated claiming energy and that is only going to serve him for the rest of his life and relationship. Because that's what it is. It's like, like my body wants this. I'm gonna go tell her I want this and then see how she responds. She is at choice. She is at choice. I'm not bothering her with my, with my ass or with my desire. It doesn't take anything away from her. She is at choice around what she says. But I am able to bring my desire. Right. I have agency over my own claiming ability and to me that's huge. Any comments on that before we move on?

Jason Lange: That is one. I wish I could cultivate it at an earlier age, but it's a great example of when we talk about kind of the, the micro, right? There's a way, there's a way you can claim someone you've never met with your intention and your clarity. And he, he's, he's a great example of, of went for the clarity, right? He went for the clarity. Just boom. This was a clear, there's a clear approach. Wasn't like the going about it roundabout or something, but it was just like, boom, yeah, this is my intent and I'm naming it and claiming it with you. So you know, whether or not she says yes or no, there's a claim made there. And then he knows he did his part. So that, that's where, like, that's where we help men celebrate. Like they get to relax after that. No matter what happens. It's like, oh great, I did my part. Okay.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And it doesn't have to only be in dating context. So we had another man who came in and we have a whole demographic of married men or men in long term relationships that, that come in that know that the more is possible in their relationship, they just want more. And in this man's case, case a breakthrough was, yeah, he actually shared with his woman. He's like, I want us to be closer. I want more intimacy with you. And that was a huge step for him. Well, really for them. But that is an example of claiming. And in her case, she was up for it. She was also like, okay, what does that mean? Like, I don't know, I don't know what it means. I want to hear more about what it actually looks like. And I think there was a concern like, is that winnable for me? Am I going to be able to meet you in that? Am I going to, Am I going to fail the intimacy test? Right. Am I going to not do it? Right. So she had her own experience, but it Brought them a lot closer. And they have had a number of breakthroughs after that. Just around closeness, just around closeness in their relationship, which has also led to a better sex. Just more joy, honestly, just more joy. And I'm particularly inspired by their story and stories like that because they have children and so they are modeling relationship and now they're modeling relationship in a different way. And of course the kids can feel it. They can feel when mom and dad are feeling it, right? When they're grooving, when they're, when they're holding hands, when it, when they can feel that connection between them and that's becoming their normal. Right? The kids are watching and learning all the time and that's becoming their normal. So I think they're. There's a lot of claiming that can happen in a love relationship over time. This isn't just something that happens in dating and it can really serve the partnership as well as the children if they're, if there are in that family system.

Jason Lange: I just had a line come to me, so I kind of. It's a great. I think this is solid. I think this is solid in terms of like a bumper sticker takeaway here. So. So if she's guessing or you're assuming, you're not claiming. So if she's left guessing, meaning she's having to interpret or make up or try to Sherlock Holmes her way into what's going on here, you're not claiming her. And if you're assuming she already knows something or she, like, there's already clarity there that has never been actually spoken, you're not claiming. So if she's guessing or you're assuming, then you are not claiming her. And all these things are examples of, you know, in both, both those examples you just gave, right? There's a directness to speaking about the context and being very clear about this is what I want. It's simple, but I think it is nice, guys. It's so easy. So easy, you know, to just assume they. Oh, she knows I like her, right? This goes for long term relationships too. Like, oh, I assume she knows I'm still attracted to her and like her. No, no, she's like, it's been a week and you know, I'm in a different part of my cycle. I feel different. Like, have you fallen out of love with me? Gotta be clear. Don't, don't leave her guessing and stop assuming men. That. That's one way to think about this.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great way of putting it. I also, I find it interesting because A pattern that I've seen in a lot of the men that we've worked with is when they look at their relationship history, they have fallen into things like you said. So they've been the one that's been pursued by a woman or they've fallen or they didn't have a lot of interest. They weren't getting a lot of interest from women in high school or college. And so in their early 20s, a woman was interested and they just ended up marrying her and being in a 10 year relationship or 20 year relationship. And so it's fascinating because, you know, one of our guys, for example, came out of a really hard marriage, a hard marriage to a woman with borderline and just wasn't respected for his leadership. Just, it was kind of a mess. And the claiming energy that we're talking about doesn't work with everyone. Right. Like healthy claiming only works with a partner who wants that from you and who is willing to follow. You can't lead someone who's not willing to follow follow. There's no leading someone who's not willing to follow. It doesn't work. But as this man grew, so he got out of that marriage and he did his work, he did work with us and in other places he started to be able to claim. And as he did that, as he approached women with that, he got a more a softer partner, essentially a partner who was interested in following. So there's some, there's a correlation here around. As you learn to claim and lean into your power in a healthy way, the women you attract change. It changes who you attract and things become easier without you having to effort so much or having to will your way there. So I think that's one of the gratifying things about, you know, the, the transformations that we've seen is, oh, wow, this is a lot easier. This is easier than I thought that it would be. It doesn't, it doesn't take a lot. And fortunately for all you men, not so fortunate for us women, the bar is very low. The bar is very low. Most men that, that we interact with on dating apps or out in the world don't know about this stuff and they don't understand how to do it well. And so you do stand out, right? You do stand out. When you, when you get this down, it, it's, you are unique and you are, I think I just, I can't tell you how many of, how many of the times I've heard from our guys like, like, yeah, she said, I've never had a man Ask me that before. I've never had a man lead in this way. Like, this feels really good because it's so rare, and I think it's just not. It's not something we're taught. It's not something that we. Yeah, it's. It's sort of just being discussed now in a more clear and straightforward way. But it's. That feels like a common refrain. And I don't know if. If you had that experience as you were starting to, to know how to claim or lead in, in dating, did you. It. Did it get easier for you? Like, what was your own experience? And then we'll start to wrap.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I'm married now, so in some ways, you know, that was the ultimate claim in a sense. But it. The important thing is, yeah, it still has to happen day to day and week to week, and I could slip and forget and not make it clear that I'm holding you in my awareness and sharing that. So it's, it's. It's coming out as well, that second part. And if I don't do that, that it does not go well in my relationship. She's not happy, I'm not happy. And I have had to, you know, and it is easier, just easier to bring that and to come towards her and to make it clear and be mindful. Right. Of small gestures and those different things which are just, you know, all of those kind of gifts or surprises or which don't have to be things you like, buy necessarily, but they're just expressions of. Of I'm tracking you in my awareness. I'm tracking us in our awareness. And that's important to me. And I want you to know it's important to me. So here's some of the different ways I communicate and share that. And so, yeah, I mean, in an odd way, it's only becoming more important to me over time. The longer I married, the less it just happens automatically in some sense. Like, I think where a lot of people go wrong, men and consider in particular is, oh, well, she knows I love her because we're married. I got the ring, right? The container is all we need. No, you still got to put in the time, the work, the moment to moment, choosing an effort to show her that you're important, you're part of my awareness, you're part of my consciousness. And it's important that you and I stay in connection around where we're going together and that I think about that all the time and we talk about that all the time. What are we Doing what's next, what do we love? Like all those different things. So it. It can absolutely get easier. And I just know my, you know, the other thing I'll share is just on the other end of decades of men's work and personal growth work, I know myself a lot more. So it's just getting easier to be forward with what I want, because I know what I want. Right. And that just makes it easier in relationship over time.

Melanie Curtin: I think that's one of the things that I admire about you and something that I do see in a lot of our men is I don't really know what I want. And I feel some shame about not knowing what I want. And if, if that's you, if you were a man who doesn't know, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with you and you can figure it out. And there are people that can support you in that, including us.

Jason Lange: Us.

Melanie Curtin: Because I think that there's. Yeah, there's a lot of shit. I should have more of a direction. I should know what I'm doing. I should. There's a lot of. There's a lot of pressure, I think, on all of us in that direction. And I think that's one of the beautiful things that we've seen in our work is watching men develop that skill, watching them determine what they want, watching them practice doing it right. Practice getting something for lunch that you actually want, want, not what you think you should have. You know, just small things, big things, just practicing it, practicing. What do I want to do for the holidays? Not what does my family want me to do for the holidays, what do I want to do? Or what do I want to do this weekend? You know, regard, like separating out from everyone else. So I think that there's something exciting that I've witnessed in our guys is sort of watching them come into themselves almost like, oh, there he is right there. There's the essence of that man. And it's exciting, it's powerful, and it's frankly a turn on. It's. Yeah, that's attractive. That is attractive. Watching you actually go for what you want is attractive. So it's. Yeah, it's alchemical. So, yeah, we're going to start to wrap here. If you are interested in our work and going deeper, you can go to evolutionary.men/apply and you can get on our calendar. And if you're interested in supporting the podcast, you can become a patron. If you join at A$10 a month level or more, you can get access to our live Q and A'S which is happening. Actually, I'm not sure when this episode is going to drop, so I'm going to pause on that. But they happen every month. They're happening in late May. If this is that time, then you can probably still get in on it. And again, if you're interested in going deeper than the podcast, you can get us at Evolutionary Men Slash Apply.