I had the honor of joining Melanie Curtin on her show Dear Men to dive into a relationship pattern that trips up so many guys. That feeling of "I can never get it right with her." You know the one. You're trying, you're showing up, but somehow it's never enough. She's frustrated, you're defensive or collapsed, and the whole thing spirals.
We got into the core dynamics underneath this pattern. The polarity piece, how criticism often masks a deeper longing for connection and trust. The ways we can accidentally put our partners back in their masculine when we're constantly asking them to direct us. And yeah, how this links to our own unprocessed shame from childhood or past relationships that gets triggered in present moments.
What struck me in this conversation was how much of this work is about building capacity, both to lead and to receive feedback without collapsing or getting defensive. We talked about the importance of real-time revelation versus stockpiling grievances. And the hard truth that sometimes the most generous thing you can do is exit a relationship where there's no winning, particularly if you're dealing with BPD dynamics.
The other piece we explored that feels critical is how a feminine partner opening her heart, even when it's painful feedback, is actually a gift. She's revealing because she wants more connection with you, not because she'd rather be with someone else. That reframe has been huge for me.
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Jason Lange: Abso freaking lutely. Guys, you really highlight what Mel said there. If, if you want a dynamic and open feminine partner, that means everything, right? That doesn't mean she's just open and hot and wild in the bedroom and then doesn't share anything with you outside of that. Like, it's just one open or closed, in a sense.
Melanie Curtin: Hello, everyone. Welcome back. So happy to have Jason with me. Always love the Jason episodes. Today we're talking about a very common relationship pattern, a very common one. And this relationship pattern, in my experience, shows up in almost every relationship. Whether that's a queer relationship or a hetero relationship or sort of any romantic connection, there's often one party playing one role and the other party playing the other role. So I'm just going to name in this conversation, we're mostly focusing on men playing a certain role and women playing a certain role. But, man, this shows up everywhere. This just seems like a universal human pattern that we get into. And I'm excited to talk about it because it's can be really painful. Can be really painful, and anything we can do to soothe it and make it better, I think is, was worth discussing. So, so, yeah, so I would love to hear from you, Jason, if you could maybe describe the pattern that you've experienced in your life, your felt experience of what, what this is and, and how it goes. And we have a bunch of shares from our men.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. This is one I, I, I've lived in my marriage and, you know, continue to live. Sometimes it's not like it's just magically fixed, but is a, a pattern that if not if I don't keep attention on, you know, it can rear its head. And so, yeah, this is a pattern really, in a lot of ways that just kind of can be summed up of, like, feeling like I'm not doing it right or not doing enough, and then my partner kind of coming at me with that, which then either causes me to get defensive and angry or just say like, you know, fuck it, I'm out. Like, you know, you know, just like withdraw or pull away. And it's a pretty common one, right? Certainly in my relationship and in many relationships we've worked with. And I think it, it gets to a core dynamic of what a lot of us men struggle with, of just feeling like we're not enough, like we can't provide enough, we're not present enough, we're not relational enough, we're not emotional enough, we're not, you name it, just like we're not enough. And that there's certainly been in my experience, like, as I enter into that energy in that state in particular, it can become like a quick downward spiral. It's like I'm starting to feel a little tender around it. And then if my partner comes in and like, oh, you need to do this more. I need more of this, or I need more of this. It can just really cause for me, like I said, sometimes anger and defensiveness, but oftentimes, like, some collapse and just kind of like, I just don't know what to do about this. Like, there's no, you know, particularly early in my marriage, less so these days. But sometimes, particularly around tender things, there's a. A way I'll try to, like, explain my way out of it, but I'm doing this, and I'm doing this and I'm doing this and I'm doing this, which then almost inevitably makes her more angry. And then she kind of comes at me harder. And that pattern just definitely doesn't work.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I wanted to. There's many components to this, and I guess I just want to name that. I feel a certain amount of pressure for this episode to be perfect, which, of course is ridiculous. And we're probably going to end up doing another episode on this pattern because there's so much, much here. But one of the things I appreciated about what you said was her coming to you with a request or a desire or feedback of some kind, and the. The two kind of core responses of defending and defending or pushing back essentially, or collapsing and withdrawing. And I guess I just want to name that there is a third way. So if you're listening, it's a false choice. Those aren't your only two options, and we're going to get into that. So just. Just to name there is hope. This is not a hopeless situation. I wanted to read, so I. I emailed a bunch of our men before this to prep for this episode, and I got their experiences of this pattern. And I thought this was a really good description. This is from one of our men, he says, looking for some techniques or guidance on how to break a cycle I find myself continually getting into in my romantic relationships, inevitably, I let my partner down. This is not with criticism, which causes stress in the relationship, and I feel shame and guilt. This shame and guilt makes me feel small and powerless, and I retreat. My partner will then either attempt to come closer to build intimacy or continue to criticize, which makes me pull away even more. I find myself feeling irritable with myself and others not wanting to show up in the world. How do I approach or reframe the criticism so that it doesn't feel like I'm failing? How does the masculine accept this feedback without feeling pestered or irritated? And I really appreciated this kind of description of sort of the whole pattern. Right. Like I let her down. She lets me know I get defensive and, or I withdraw and then she tries to come towards me. But because I'm in my shame spiral, I'm not really available for that. So it, then it just gets worse. There's a, there's a, you know, kind of tragic circle, but there's a word for it, right? Downward trend. Anyway. Something bad.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Downward looper.
Melanie Curtin: Vicious. Vicious cycle.
Jason Lange: Vicious cycle. There we go.
Melanie Curtin: So, yeah, so I, I wanted to kind of slow this down a little bit and kind of reveal a little bit on my, you know, from my side, from my experience of this pattern, what is going on? Because I feel like it's really difficult actually to bring these kinds of things up. So I'm going to give an example. I had a partner who didn't do anything for my birthday one year and it felt like really strange and kind of like concerning to me. I was like, I feel like you should be able to do something like send me flowers, show up at my door, say hello, try to book me for dinner or you know, like it just felt very much like this absence, right? This kind of like absence. And, and, and, and I would say that this was somewhat indicative of a generalized like low grade neglect in the relationship where I felt, I didn't really feel cherished. I felt cared for a lot of the time, but I didn't feel deeply cherished, like adored, you know, like attention on me that felt really adoring and, and cherishing. And I had, I had already brought up with him in you know, before this birthday incident in as, you know, graceful way as I could sort of like, hey, I would love more words of affirmation. That's one of my love languages. I'd really love to hear, you know, anything you like about my body or how I look or what's meaningful to you about what I say or just really any words of affirmation. He was strong in other love languages, but that was a very, that was, that did not come naturally to him and it was a big stretch for him and he sort of knew that he needs, needed to lean into that edge, but he wasn't, he wasn't doing it. And I think this is a good example of, you know, by the time the birthday thing happened, we were Already set up for this for, like, some kind of fight, essentially. And, yeah, part of what I said was, like, I felt really dropped on my birthday. I felt dropped, and I felt, honestly kind of scared and anxious, like, who am I dating that they wouldn't do anything for my birthday? Like, I would never do that to a friend or a lover or, you know, a relationship partner. Like, I feel like birthdays are one of those times when you question, you know, do I matter in the world? Does anyone care about me? Am I important? You know, it's a. It can be a trigger day. It can be a great day, but it's. It's a little bit like, you know, there are certain holidays, like, I think for a lot of people, Valentine's Day is that way as well. And there's a lot of outside commercial pressure on things like that. But it was just. It was jarring to me, and it brought up a lot of these things. Like, you couldn't even get me a card. Like, you couldn't do the show up for me. Show up for me. And I think that's the perfect example of my feelings were really hurt because of something that he did or didn't do. And I sometimes have felt stuck in the past, like, how do I share my disappointment with my partner without triggering him? And I think ultimately there are times in our lives when you can't. You can't share your disappointment or upset or feeling let down with a. With a. With someone else without them feeling. Having feelings. And I remember one of my friends who's studied feedback Watt said, feedback is an emotional experience for both the giver and the receiver. And I think that's very well said, because I think a lot of times we focus on the person receiving the feedback, right? Person receiving, which a lot of this episode is going to be focused on. But there is also emotion and vulnerability and tension in the person giving it. Because I'm like, I don't really want to be having this conversation. I don't really want to be sharing my hurt and upset about this. And I think that there's a way that, you know, women's fundamental fear. This is a complete generalization, so just bear with me. Or maybe I should say the feminine. This isn't only people in, you know, female bodies, but a core fear for the feminine is, I'm too much. I need too much. I want too much. I'm too sensitive, I'm too emotional. I'm too fill in the blank. And the masculine's core fear is, I'm not enough. I'm not providing enough, I'm not doing enough. I'm not handsome enough, I'm not wealthy enough, you know, I'm not enough. And I think that this pattern kind of, kind of shows it, like reveals those core fears. Because one of my fears has often been, am I asking for too much? Is it too much to ask for my partner to do something to make me feel special on my birthday? Am I being annoying? Am I being demanding? Am I nagging? Am I like, there's a lot of stuff caught up for me in that. And what I'm trying to do when I'm sharing my hurt or my upset with my partner, and I think a lot of people know this, but I'm going to reiterate it, is I want to stay open to him. And what I notice is if I don't share this, like my pussy wants to close, I don't want to fudge you. I don't really feel that safe with you right now. And I want that in my relationship. If I don't have that, then what the hell are we doing? And I think that the truth is this pattern is really important to bring up and bring to light and help with as much as we can. Because it's these small resentments and these small hurts that build up over time that I think toxify a relationship. And I was just reading an article about paper cuts. They said a marriage frequently doesn't die based on big marriage crimes, meaning infidelity or, you know, the, some big, big bad things. It's frequently the paper cuts and those never really getting resolved. And I think that this is one of those places where it's really important for both of us to have compassion for the other and, and to figure this out and to work with this pattern and kind of massage it and stay invested in it. Because if I don't share my upset with you, if I don't share my hur. You, I'm closing my heart a little bit at a time, more over time. And. And you end up with a closed heart and a dry woman who doesn't want to fuck you. And if you don't, you know, deal with the, the shame spiral on the other side or find a way to, to work with this and be able to hear her without giving away your power, right? Without just kowtowing and, you know, doing whatever she wants, and we're going to get to that too, then you end up withdrawing. You withdraw a little bit at a time and you go away. And eventually you're not really in the relationship. So you've got the woman closing off and you've got the man going away is a common situation and then worse things happen from there. So I guess I just wanted to share that. It's hard for me to share my heart with you. It's hard for me to tell you what didn't work. It's, it's painful in many ways and it feels like a risk. Feels like, yeah, I'm going to bring this up and you might, you might get defensive, you might shut down. I might lose your love for I don't know how long. Like, so it's, it's tough on this side too. And I just wanted to kind of share that because I think it can be easy for it to feel like there's no risk for the person that's bringing up the hurt. Whereas in my experience, I actually experience quite a lot of risk in that. So. Yeah. Any comments on that before we move on?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, there's so much there in a sense of, like, certainly my experience with my partner is related to all this is like the deeper inquiry of, can I trust you? Can I trust you? Can I trust you? Can I trust you? Can I trust you? Oftentimes these nitpicky things or these details are the, the, the tip of the iceberg. And then there's the whole deeper trust thing underneath. It's like, well, if you said you didn't, we're going to do that, and you didn't. Can I trust you on this? Can I trust you on this? And that's a pretty, you know, intense place to be if you're considering spending your life with someone and you're not sure if you can trust them. So I totally get why this pattern manifests in that. Abso freaking lutely, guys. You really highlight what Mel said there. If, if you want a dynamic and open feminine partner, that means everything, right? That doesn't mean she's just open and hot and wild in the bedroom and then doesn't share anything with you outside of that. Like, it's just one open or closed in a sense. And so if she's having to withhold her hurts. And this is what, you know, we've both worked with couples before, and one of the most common dynamics I see that kind of can tank a relationship that's part of this is over time, a woman stops revealing her heart because she either he doesn't care or he's not going to change. So I'm not going to do that. And it's like A deep somatic and physiological suffering like that I've, I've witnessed in partners when they're just like totally holding back how heartbroken they are about things. And in a way that sometimes then shocks the masculine partner when it finally comes out, he's like, what? I didn't know and da, da, da. And sometimes it's too late by then. But that, that the importance of yeah. Being in a, in a, you know, dynamic relationship means yeah, she has to be open to share whatever the truth of her heart is in the moment. That's, that's key. And that means we have to build capacity to receive that and to, you know, have some discretion around it as well, which, which we'll kind of talk about. But I, I definitely witnessed this pattern in myself and the trust piece, I think is a big part of it. How I like to think about this and how I've experienced it is, is kind of a two pronged thing of one, it's like related in my relationship often to polarity and connection. And so if I haven't been putting in the time to keep our relationship tank full, which means she feels seen, she feels desired, she feels like a priority in my life and not even just her, but like the relationship feels like a priority in the life, then she'll start to get a little anxious and for my partner, that then tends to come at me as a certain kind of energy of like, I don't feel you, I don't feel connected to you. And then that triggers me in all kinds of ways because it then links right into what we've talked about so much around polarity. Right. That my experience of my partner, and I'm not saying this is the experience of everyone in every dynamic, but it's like if, if I'm not prioritizing the relationship and cherishing her feminine, it's like it kind of atrophies and then it'll get to a point where she's more in her masculine and she's like, well, if he's not going to take care of the relationship, I am. Right. And so she comes at me from horror masculine because she's not feeling my masculine. And there is nothing harder in. It's hard to explain. This is a strong word I'm going to use here, but like repulsive than when a partner's coming at me in that masculine energy. And then when it triggers my shame on top of that, like, it just, it's just like a pile of awfulness because I'm like, oh, I don't like you and I don't like myself. And she's like, oh my God, why would I want to be with a guy who doesn't like himself? Right. You can feel the, like the just gooey dynamic that that gets into and how. How rough that can be in. You know, this is something I think we've talked about before to some extent on. We did. I think it was episode 190 we did on criticism. But there's a. Right. It's sometimes it's. It's explicitly about what's going on, like what you said around the birthday. But a lot of times the thing they're criticizing around is because the deeper thing isn't happening. Right. It's that deeper iceberg that they're not, you know, women aren't feeling nourished or met or connected or feeling us fully present. So then they like have to start poking, like, are you there? Are you there? Can you change? Can I trust you? Like, should I get out? Like, do I need to get out? Like, is this not going to change? Which is one of the things I've had to lean into getting used to of like sometimes, like, I don't even have to fix things or change them. It's like I just have to allow my partner. Partner to kind of share her truth. Feel met in me receiving it. Re establish connection. And when connection's re established, it's like it's not that those things disappear, but they're not relationship threatening anymore. Right. Then we're just like, oh, how can we collaborate on changing this chore or doing this thing or something like that.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I want to be. I want to highlight what you said here. I think we're going out of order in this episode a little bit. But I think that's okay that when I brought this up with him, I felt deeply met. I feel like one of his strengths as a partner was, was being able to receive difficult feedback. And it was one of the reasons that I deeply loved him. Right. It was one of the things that I loved the most about him because I remember when we would have these tough conversations, I could hear him taking notes and that made me feel really special. We were often on the phone. Sometimes it was in person, which he was. He was not taking notes. It was in person, but it was on the phone. I could hear him taking notes and I. That made me feel really special and important and heard. And he was very good about not defending. Very good about it. He just didn't defend. He listened closely and sometimes would ask questions. But really, he was just listening and letting me get it all out. And I'm an extrovert, so I've got a lot to get out. I don't know who can relate to that, but that's. That's a truth for me. And I think that often. To your point, Jason, I. I was often withholding other things related to that bigger thing. And so sometimes in these conversations, it was like. And also this. And also this. Now, there's a big difference between the way I would say, you know, I felt really hurt. I felt dropped. I felt scared. Like, I don't. Who am I with? Like, that seems really weird. And I feel scared. Like, I don't, you know, are you. You know, are you even. Why are you even with me? Like, if you don't, you know, what's. What are we doing? That's very different than, like, you're an. I can't believe you did that. You should know better. You know, shaming, language, denigration, putting you down, character assassination. I. I just want to be clear that when we say the word feedback, it covers a whole bunch of. It's like a big umbrella term. And when. When we're talking about it in the context of this conversation, we're not talking about borderline personality disorder. We're not talking about partners with. With borderline, with bpd. And if you haven't listened to our BPD episode and you're with a partner where it feels like you can never win with her, and it doesn't matter what you do, ever, you want to listen to that? I think it's episode 128 on recognizing the signs of borderline, because many of our clients have had BPD ex wives or girlfriends. And the pattern we're talking about, you truly can't win with a. With a woman with borderline, there's no way to win. There's a deep, dark hole in her that she needs to address, that she's choosing not to address. That's the truth. And she's trying to get her needs met, trying to get her needs met by a partner, but it's never going to be enough. It's never going to be enough. So there really are relationships where you. You will not be able to win. And it's important to distinguish between this pattern which we're talking about, where you actually can win with. With this, and we're going to talk about that. And I would say that, you know, the. The way that I presented my feedback to this man and the way that he met me is in Many cases brought us closer together. So to your point, Jason, when. When I share my hurt or upset and I feel met, I feel. I feel him meeting me and caring and wanting to know, then the content calms down. I wasn't really that upset about the birthday thing after that. It was like, I felt like, wow, you really showed up in this conversation. I've actually never been with a man who could show up here, right, who could actually hear me and not get defensive and apologize and say, you're right, I let you down. I'm sorry. I that up without also kind of collapsing or withdrawing into a shame spiral, which is also not what I wanted, right? I'm like, I'm not bringing this up to make you feel like I'm really not. I'm bringing you this up because I want to keep being with you and I want to keep having sex with you in an open way, right? In an open way where my pussy is not clenched, where I'm not resisting, where there's not a part of me that's like, I don't really feel safe with you. I'm just doing this out of obligation. Like, I don't want that relationship. I want a passionate, open relationship. So I have to keep. I have to keep revealing my heart, which is fucking hard. But that's a separate story. So that was a lot. I think the. The point is that when you do work with this pattern, well, I think it can actually bring a couple closer together, which is good. And if you're with a partner where it never works, that could be an indication of their side. And I. And I strongly recommend episode 128. So I want to go back a little bit to what you said, Jason, about the prep work. You know, like, if I haven't put the work in to. To kind of be cultivating the relationship, then these problems start to arise and get worse. I really appreciate you saying that, because when I sent this email to our men, the way I described it was the relationship pattern where she essentially says, I need you to love me better. Slash differently. And he feels like I'm constantly letting you down or disappointing you. And it's extremely discouraging. How do two people meet in the middle? Middle here? How does she stop in, and how does he feel whole and not in a shame spiral? So, because I. I feel like the emotional experience of men, it's so. It can be so debilitating. This. This. It can wear you down, right? If you feel like you're not getting it right. She keeps bringing it up and you're not getting it right. And she keeps bringing it up. It's just, I guess I just want to validate any man out there who's like, yeah, it's tiring. It feels really tiring. And I think that this description from one of our men has a really good, like, flow to it. So he says, I was continually asked to do more, and even if I did what was asked, was criticized for not doing more or not checking in with her more. So I felt very under recognized, underappreciated. And I just, I ended up getting like really depressed and down and stressed. That was something a lot of the men talked about, was the stress and anxiety of this pattern. And then he said, I used some avoidant behavior to try to not be around or not be confrontational with it. I would try to be careful about how to respond. Basically walking on eggshells. I also tried to resolve by asking for more focused priorities and specifics to make it better rather than trying to do random things arbitrarily. This did not really work in most cases. I asked for help on ways to improve the situation, including going to therapy, and that didn't work either. This person had a bpdx. So that's kind of a description of that pattern. But one of the other things that, that kept coming up in the men's responses was if you truly cared, you would have done it right the first time. If you truly cared, you would have done it right the first time. And I guess I just wanted to say, as a woman, I identify with that. And I think that there is a shadow side to the feminine of like, we do want you to read our minds in many ways. We do want you to be paying such close attention to us and putting so much effort into knowing our souls that you can just tell right what we need and you just give it to us and it feels good all the time. So I guess I just want to validate that even when you're in a healthy partnership, you're going to have to learn how to love each other well, period. You're going to have to learn how to do that. And I do think there's an element of like, oh, why aren't you just loving me better? You should be. You should be loving me better. Why aren't you loving me better? That the feminine can get into. And if you've ever experienced that as the masculine, you know you're not alone. Curious if you have any comments on that part.
Jason Lange: Totally. I think that's the hard work of relationship is the Realization. Oh, my God. I have to. I mean, it sounds weird, but I have to teach my partner how to love me. And that it's going to require a lot of generosity on both sides and for them, and vice versa, I think, is one of the big shifts that you. Either you get there as a couple or you don't. Like the. Right. The shift from me to us. This we. Right. Oh. In order to create a thriving relationship. Yeah. Words of affection aren't my thing, but I have to, like, work to sometimes get the words out to give them to my partner so she can receive what she needs and she does the things for me like we've talked about on previous episodes. So I think that's a really big deal. Just to highlight there that there is an element of really having to work at it. And one of the most generous things you can look for as men in a partner is a woman who does appreciate your efforts and can at least give you a little bit of positivity, even if there's some feedback in there. You know, I think, you know, like, you know, as men, we're still just boys and we like to be applauded for our effort. Like, good game. Right? Like, you can think of like, the typical Bay. Good game, Good game, good game, good game. There's like a one team won and one team lost, but there's like, okay, at least I, you know, I'm being recognized for my effort is a big thing that can go a long way. And when we don't get that as men, that can be what's particularly damaging. I think that really can happen strongly in the BPD situations. But even times, sometimes outside of that, that's where I think the really downward loop can happen. Because then it's like, well, I don't even want to try. What's the point in trying? Because I'm like, she's not going to receive. I'm not going to plan an evening and then she's just going to criticize me. So I'm not going to lead anything. Right. And that is what can really get guys into a, I think a pretty painful place of like, I don't even want to try anymore or I've tried giving her everything she needs and it. It just doesn't work that way. And that can get very uninspiring. And, you know, I can also. I just also want to highlight kind of from reflecting from the feminine side, you know, there's a way we can be like, oh, yeah, like, I get the energy of, like, I just want him to intuit, you know, what I want and not have to ask. And the. The. The. The golden nugget in there, I think, is that sometimes us men don't realize if we're like, tell me what to do better. Tell me what I can do better. That immediately, to some extent, puts a feminine partner back in her masculine. I now have to orient to what the problem is, what the solution is, and I am directing you how to fix it, right? So some of the energetics underneath this are. If she has to tell you every time, even if you do it right. Somewhere my partners got frustrated is that, like, I don't want to have to be your mom. Like, I don't want to always tell you how to do these things, right? Like, I want to feel met in that you're kind of. You can figure it out yourself sometimes. And that's where there just takes stamina on both ends for us men. We have to be willing to get it wrong and course correct. And we need to have generous partners who. You know, I don't remember who I first heard this from or who said it. Probably someone in our network. But, like, you know, you have to let your man lead poorly. Sometimes I can be like, okay, yeah, this is. This is kind of a train wreck. But he's trying. And so I'm gonna at least, like, show some gratitude for that. And then in my own way, we can kind of debrief at some point, you know, when he's ready or in something like that. But I think that's super important, that there is a lot of generosity there on both sides in order to do this, because without it is when things can get really hard. Because, you know, one pattern I've seen in a lot of our guys, particularly, who've been in really challenging relationships, is they start to question, like, why am I even in it? And I think there's some truth in that, right? In that downward spiral, kind of like, why even try of, you know, the masculine part of all of us, whatever body we're born in, right? Doesn't really want to do anything. Just, like, doesn't want to be bothered already feels like there's enough burden, doesn't want to take more action, just wants to rest. And so then if our relationship becomes this. This thing, I have to always do something. Oh, now she wants this. Now it has to be this. Now it has to be this. That can not. That can kind of conflict with that internal desire. And there's that feeling of, I just. I don't want to be bothered In. I think that's an important state to be aware of as men, because it's real. And my opinion is if you ever really get there, you should get out of the relationship, like, pretty fast. And not all guys always realize that. And then it. And then it, right. It just deepens that whole pattern where then they kind of withdraw. She closes her heart, both partners are suffering, and it gets so, so dark so fast. But, you know, I'm a guy. I get it. Sometimes relationship feels like burden. Sometimes just like, I just don't fucking have the energy to do that. I'm doing all these other things, right? There's that. There's that kind of sense of I have to do more now on top of everything I'm already trying to do in my life. You want more. And, you know, that's really the crux of this, that then often for me, I either get defensive and frustrated about, like, we talked about, frustrated, or I kind of collapse and just withdraw a little bit of, like, how could I possibly give more? Is the feeling, right? That sometimes gets hit in me, which again, we don't really get there if the tank's being kept full, which doesn't. Which I think it's important to say, doesn't mean just me always putting energy into the relationship, but sometimes my partner gifting me with energy or nourishment or like, the. The many things the feminine can. Can give that remind me of like, oh, this is why I'm in a relationship. This is awesome. Like, this is awesome, right? If. If either of us aren't giving our gifts in that sense, that's when it can get really dark. But if. If I'm putting in an effort to create connection, prioritize the relationship, show where she's, you know, meaningful to me, we can go a lot longer without any. Any bumps. If she's taking the time sometimes to, you know, bring me energy, not criticize, just lighten. Literally lighten my load, right? That's. That's the sense. I think a lot of guys, we walk around a lot of heavy burden, and part of what attracts us to women is in the feminine, is we can be around it. And for a little bit, it's like the load disappears. It's like, oh, whoa, this. It's nice to be in this moment, right? And when we get that, you know, the. That's where that's actually. This is where it can be so generative is when we get that, then it's like, fuck, I'm inspired to lead this woman. What an amazing person. How can I delight her? And then I lead her and delight her, and then she, you know, and then the energy goes back and forth on the positive side of this. But the dynamic of, like, yeah, I just can't get it right, and then I start to shut down. You just got to really work that as a couple.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. There's something, too, about mentorship and community when you're talking about, you know, the man that's stuck or feels deeply stuck in a relationship. And it does feel like this pattern keeps repeating, and it doesn't feel like he can get it right or get out or that there's really any hope. It's much like domestic violence situations where when you're isolated and you're not telling anyone about what's happening and you don't have a men's group and you don't have mentors, and everything's worse. Everything's worse when you have guidance and mentorship, you know, because what. One of the things you mentioned was, if. If you're like, well, how can I be better? And she's in her masculine kind of telling you how you can be better. Some of the time it's like, she doesn't have the words to say, I need you to be in your power more. I need you to be in your power more. Right. I need you to be in your masculine. She's not going to say that. She's like, I feel like we just never go out anymore. I just don't feel like you even, like, see me. She's going to use different words and phrases. Rather than if you're part of a conscious community of men or you have the right mentors, they're like, hey, it feels like there's some collapse happening. How is your body doing? What's happening for you? When. When do you feel like you're in your power? If you have guidance and help on how to actually get back to yourself and feel good and feel vital and energized and. And yourself, then it's going to be very confusing because most people aren't educated about things like polarity, and so they're doing their best to describe. But it's almost like you're talking about the symptoms and you're not talking about the underlying virus or the underlying dynamics. Whereas when you have the right mentorship and you have the right support, then other people can be helping you that aren't your partner, and that can be really helpful, and they can also help you evaluate. Like, is this dynamic healthy? Do you. Do you feel like you're never, ever winning with her. What happened when you led that conversation? How did she show up? Did you feel her heart? Do you ever feel her softening with you? Is she, Is she trying? Because that's something that I think is the most heartbreaking to me about so many of the men that we've worked with, where in the past, you know, they've had partners or sometimes they come. Come to us in relationships now where they're just gather, just beat down and they really are trying and they're really not being recognized for their efforts at all. I mean, they are truly not. This is one of the shares from a man who I asked, you know, how did this affect you? How did this pattern impact you? And he said, I would say that predominantly how I felt was why bother trying when I can never get it right anyway? It deflated me and it made me feel useless. And as men, we need to feel useful. For example, what's even the point in taking the initiative to make dinner for her when she's just going to tell me that I put too much sauce in or that it's undercooked? Hearing that nothing was ever good enough for her made me withdraw into passivity and inaction. Why do anything for her when I'm always going to be shot down for trying? And then of course, she would wonder why I never took the initiative with anything. So she started building resentment because I was passive. She felt like I never did anything for her, which bred a competitive, adversarial type of dynamic. And I think that's important for women to hear too, is that if a man is trying and he is taking the initiative and he is taking action and he is providing in the relationship and all you do is criticize or nitpick him, him for about whatever it is, the way he drives or the way he cooks or the gift that he got or the way that he talked to your family or whatever it is, it's like if you, if you do that enough, it's very likely he's going to withdraw. It's very likely he's going to stop trying, and then you're going to resent him for not doing anything, and it's going to be a disaster. So I think that there is a lot of power in being connected to other people outside of your relationship that you trust, that are, that are trustable, that are ahead of you on the path that you feel like can help you evaluate. Hey, is this me? Is this her? You know, what's, what's going on? Because I think that you know, if that man, the man I was with that I talked about, brought this to his man, was like, yeah, I didn't do anything for her birthday. They'd be like, dude, what, like there's, there's a pretty basic, like, you got to do something like tell, you know, tell us more about what's going on, you know, what's going on that that happened and blah, blah, blah. There's a, there's a certain truth telling aspect to being connected to community, conscious community. And they can also say, wow, she said that to you, right? Like, that's not okay. And this is the sixth time this has happened. That's, this is concerning. And we've had moments in our program where we've definitely, I have said to men, I am concerned about you, I'm concerned about you. I'm concerned about this relationship. These are red flags that you're describing. And this is the third or fourth time on these calls that you brought this up. So I think it's time to evaluate this relationship and whether it's healthy because it's really hard to do that when you're in it. It's like the frog in the tepid water that heats up over time and then you're in this boiling water. And that was one of the things that I felt like in reading the responses from the men that really touched me and just kind of made my heart hurt was just that, that sort of endless feeling of trying so hard and not being seen for my efforts. Trying so hard, not being seen for my efforts. And then the depression and the anxiety that would follow that almost every man talked about feeling depressed or stressed or some version of like suffering. Like the word that you used, I think is, is pretty accurate. Which is, which is suffering. This was another point I wanted to make from a different man. This was also a BPD partner. So take this with a grain of salt, but I think there's an element here that's important. He laid, he laid it out in numbers, right? Step one, I would try to do something nice and considerate to show love and appreciation. Birthday weekends, getaway trips, gifts. Step two, my actions or gifts did not match the expectations, expectations my partner had in her head. Step three, I was angrily criticized and told how insensitive and out of tune I was before being stonewalled, often for a day or more. This is the silent treatment, also known as the silent treatment. Step four, each incident would be mentally filed away by my partner to beat me over the head with at a future opportune moment. Step 5. For a long time, I felt bad about these incidents and tried to make up for them, but all my attempts were met with continuous disqualification. And then we come to that phrase again. If you truly care, you would have done it right the first time. And. And then it was sort of. I tried, I tried, I tried, I tried. Ultimately, I felt helpless, depressed, and constantly on my heels trying to defend myself. It reminds me of the dog studies they've done where they electrify. Where they electrify the floor of the dog cage, and there is no safe spot. Eventually, the dogs give up and go into helplessness mode and just lie down on the electrified floor. And I think that the part in there that I really want to highlight was the expectations, right? The expectations that I have of my man that I don't necessarily share. Then he does something, and I feel let down. I think there. That is something that the feminine does need to take responsibility for, because I think that's very real. And often we don't realize that we have these expectations, but it's. There's got to be a way for us to make space, like you said, to be generous with our. Our men and also make room for our disappointment and our hurt when it comes up. Because me just trying to stuff it down doesn't work. And I think that's another difficult place that we. But a place we can get to in relationship where I am able to share I was hurt or disappointed about this, and I get that. I didn't ask or you couldn't have known or there has to be space for that. And there has to be space for the partner to say, I hear you. I can see how that was what you wanted and I didn't provide it again without collapsing into a shame spiral and without getting defensive. So that third way, I think soon we should sort of start to move into that, because I think that's a way that this pattern can be addressed constructively as long as you're in a relationship with a woman who's trying, who's showing up, who's doing her own work, and who doesn't have bpd. Any comments on that part?
Jason Lange: Absolutely. Just to highlight, again, it's a total different ball game if the partner's displaying BPD tendencies, if these. It's where I've often seen this in couples we've worked with and guys we've worked with. Where things have shifted for the better is. It's not like a. It's more like seasons. Right. It's not like it's 100% all the time. But there'll be like these downward spirals. The couple will kind of get to. It'll be really bad for a while, then they'll kind of get out and then it'll kind of come back down there. But there's like enough good that it's clearly not a like hyper damaging relationship like BPD often relationships can be. And that, you know, one of the ways certainly that I have found it easier to be with feedback and I think can be the goal in so many ways of this third way or the advanced couple is as quickly as possible. Now it's never totally possible to do this 100% but to bring things as close to real time as we can in terms of as the emotion or hurt is happening to highlight it right then and there. I'm feeling so disappointed right now, right? Instead of, I think where things can get really hard for us men sometimes is, okay, it hasn't been revealed. It builds up. So then when it comes out, it's like this thing and this thing and this thing and this thing and it just, it's like, it's like dizzying, right? Sometimes it can be versus like in the moment as it's being revealed. It's, it's. What I've found is it's a lot easier to process it faster and come back to some connection and then we can move on to the kind of the next thing and then the next thing and then the next thing. But in a lot of ways, the hardest feedback, you know, for me to process and deal with, particularly when it's brought up repeatedly, is stuff that already happened. Because it's like there's nothing I can do about it at that point. I can apologize to you, I can say I'm going to do it better, whatever that might be. But that, that's a hard place to be versus at least if it's happening in as close to real time as possible, there's a way I can like step into that moment more fully and we can do something with it right then we can start to rewrite the story as it's happening, I think is one of the powerful things. And that said, it's super hard. That's like the hardest practice to do. And you know, for guys to again, just know that it takes a, a lot of love in a sense for a female partner to trust that if she unveils her heart or hurt in the moment that her man's going to be able to take it. And let's say it's not going to Tank the whole evening, and he's going to withdraw or disappear. That's. There's a reason a lot of women have learned to withhold and close their hearts, because the few times they did or in previous relationships, it did not go well. So then there's a fear of, like, well, if I do tell him what's going on, then he's going to get mad at me, or you not want to be in the relationship. And then they're suffering because they're like, well, I can't truly be authentic with him. And so they're. They're withholding a little bit. And again, that problem can just get really gnarly. So that practice place of allowing it to come is, you know, trying to resolve things as close to real time as possible really helps in.
Melanie Curtin: In.
Jason Lange: In my experience of keeping the relationship moving and not just getting sunk in the past.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I want to speak to that because I think for me, I was raised by a borderline mother, and many of our clients had an emotionally chaotic home of some kind or a lot of neglect. So they weren't really getting their needs met. In my case, I learned to not ever share anything that could be construed as critical ever. Like, that was not safe. So for me, it's a big risk. And it takes a lot of courage and bravery to reveal to my partner my hurt because I'm expecting him to say, well, fuck you. Fuck you for feeling that way. Like, I know logically that probably that's not going to happen. But in my body, I am afraid of being attacked. That's been very consistently true and has shifted somewhat over time. And I think that the relationship that I was describing helped a lot because he never did that. Never did that. So from the beginning, like, I remember the first time I brought something up, I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to die. Like, I'm so scared, and it's horrible. And I felt very met. I felt like he listened really closely. He was breathing the whole time. I could see that his posture was like he was still there with me. He hadn't kind of checked out or gone away or withdrawn or just, yes, stonewalled. Because sometimes you're like, this feels really scary now because I'm sharing, but I can feel that he's just, like, resisting. Like, even if he's not saying any words, I just feel this energy coming off of him that's like, that. I don't want to hear this. This isn't, you know, anyway. I felt him present, breathing, listening, and I Remember the words he said, you're right. I'm sorry. I was out of line. And my whole body just relaxed. Whole body just relaxed. Like, I didn't really need more than that. And I think that's a really important point here, you know, like what you were saying, Jason, it's like it can feel like, well, shit, I didn't know at the time, and there's nothing I can do about it. But really, I was like, I don't really need more than that. I can feel that you're really here with me. You're deeply listening and you're validating. And in this case, I'm not bpd, right? These are not, you know, tiny things that I've blown hugely out of proportion. This is a normal relationship. Right in the. In the scale of normalness. I was like, this thing happened. It really hurt my feelings. I felt really shut down and scared to talk to you. I've been holding it for days because I haven't known how to do this because I'm scared. And he said, you're right. I should have said that. I'm sorry. I was out of line. And I was like, oh, my God, I never knew repair could be this fast. I was like, oh, wow. And of course, you know, I was crying, and it was very emotional, and we hugged and repaired. The thing that I remember the most was like, wow, this actually doesn't have to take that long. Like, if I sort of show up and I'm in my heart, you know, doing my best to reveal. To reveal my hurt. Right? Not to put you down, not to make you feel like you're worse than me or I'm better than you, or you should have known this or not that. Like, sharing my heart and you receive that and basically own your part. Like, yeah, yeah, I fuck that up. I did. I dropped you. I dropped you on your birthday. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It doesn't really need to be much more elaborate than that. At least for. For me, for, you know, woman who's kind of standing in. In her power, it doesn't need to be groveling or, you know, trying to fix it for eternity. It just needs. I just need to feel like you're really here. You really heard me. You're really listening. And I feel your care. And I think that's. That's the tough line to walk for men often because. Because of the shame spiral. Right? Because of the shame spiral. Sometimes, you know, her revealing her heart or her hurt is like, I hurt her. I'm a Piece of shit. I'm never gonna get this right. I can't believe I did this again. This reminds me of that other experience, and they are just completely in a shame spiral, and there's. And so the presence with their partner just goes away. And it's just like. Like the toy that's winding down and then it's just, you know, you can see it, like the collapse and the head going down and the whole. The whole sort of situation. So I'm curious if you can speak a little bit to. I feel like what we've witnessed in our men, and I'm sure you've had this experience, is that as a man does grow in his capacity to hold intensity and to be present for these kinds of conversations, these kinds of conversations tend to get better or smoother. Would you say that's true? How would you. How would you talk about this part?
Jason Lange: Yeah, a couple things there. First, kind of looping back into what I touched on earlier that I think you just gave a great example of. Of the. Sometimes the simplicity of. There's nothing to even be fixed. There's just the receiving the feedback and acknowledging it can. It's like crazy to me sometimes how well it works if we're just like, oh, yeah, you're right, I fucked that up. Right. Like, there's something about that that I've seen really work. And, you know, my sense is, it's about, you know, really what lights the feminine up is feeling seen and known. And so it's like there's a. Oh, he's really with me. He's seeing me. He's hearing me. He's knowing me in this moment, and he's actually here to receive it. That I can trust. Right? That's the part of him I can trust, that if I bring something, he can receive it and be here so that can reestablish that connection. And that's, you know, like, when you do it in that way where you're revealing rather than directing. I need you. You should need to do this next time or this next time. That's when, like, the revealing actually will kind of call forth our masculine of like, oh, yeah, I that up. I can totally see how next time it'd probably be good to let you know, I gotta work this weekend. I won't have time to get something together, you know, whatever the situation is, but I want to take you out next weekend, you know, or something like, then our masculine can spring forth. So I do think that gets easier as we build our capacity as men and as we do our deep inner work generally around our family of origin and our, you know, mothers, fathers, which are often the root of a lot of our shame or experiences in previous relationships where we do the work to kind of uncover that and be with that and metabolize that. So that part of. Often for, you know, me as a man and a lot of the men we've worked with, the problem is the. It's like the. The shadow. Shadow shame pool, right. You can think of like, shadow as I. I work with it. And men have like, pockets of unprocessed stuff from previous experiences. And so they're like internal pools of gas, right? Which normally a little thing would come in and be like, oh, yeah, I messed that up, you're right, I'm sorry. Until I dropped the ball on that. But it's like there's this energy source from all these previous ones that that little thing comes in. It's like, it's extra big. And the shame collapse is not only around this, but it's around all those other moments. Oh, I've never. I still haven't changed. All the same, as we learn to work those other moments and be kind to ourselves and generous with ourselves and how we were learning, it allows us to actually receive things in real time in a different way because we're not carrying the past into each single instance or interaction. Right. Which is so important. I think there's also a lot of work that we, you know, we see with men who just yet be able to talk about this stuff. Fine. And being met with other men of. I know that feeling. I've been there. I've worked hard in that way as well. And I felt stuck. And just men getting that sense of, oh, it's not all me other men up too. It's okay to up. A good partner is gonna not mind that you up sometimes just like that you're bringing enough the rest of the time that it makes it worth it. So for me, it certainly got easier as I did the work and as I kind of reclaimed myself and done a lot of work around shame and stuff to. To know that, okay, you know, the generous attitude I can often now step more into with my partner, not every time, but more often is, well, she's sharing this with me because she wants more of me. She wants to be connected to me more. She wants to love me more. She wants to feel closer to me. That's the little dish things around the house. Like, it all actually traces to that, like, in a lot of ways, right? Because for her to be Able to be even more open and loving with me. She has to feel relaxed in her body, energized, and to feel like I'm taking care of things just like she's taking care of things. So as I step into that, you know, with a partner who I've done a lot of work with, I can receive a lot more of this to know, okay, it's not. She's not telling this stuff with. You know, I think sometimes the orientation we get wrong is as guys is she's telling this stuff to me because she wants me to be different or sorry, like she'd rather be with someone else who could do these things. It's. It's. She actually wants to be with me. So she's trying to tell me the things that will bring us closer together in that, like, it's. It's a subtle thing there, but it's. It's an important one of like, she's offering this to me because she wants me. You know, I think that's the. The key piece I'll highlight there and then just, you know, another piece I also want to highlight. Because we also tend to work with a lot of nice guys in. Who can be the. The frogs in the boiling water. Sometimes with BPD partners, which there's just kind of no winning with, you know, the. The solution there is generally to exit the relationship, but sometimes there's the steps before that in healthier partners, where I think there's an important thing to catch here that I've caught a few times in my relationship and is a big area for growth for a lot of men is there's a difference between being open to the feedback and how the feedback is being delivered. And as men, if we tolerate feedback being delivered in mean or aggressive or demeaning ways, even if it's just subtle, right? Like kind of tearing us down. That has that, I don't know, reverberation in the relationship where the more a partner does that, like, maybe he's kind of a little mean or biting to us or digs into us a little bit in a way that's like not clean, right? Not clean in the sense of it's not just the pure feedback, but it's like making it a little more harsh than it needs to be. If we tolerate that, that makes. Often repulses our partners, our feminine partners. Because then they're like, why does he let me talk to him like that. Which then aggravate. Can aggravate a partner and have them come even harder. It's like when Are you going to stand up for yourself? Like, why the fuck, if you can't stand up to me who, you know, how are you going to stand up in the world? And so I think a key distinction here I want to make too is there's a way you can receive her feedback, but you can stand up for yourself and change the culture of. And it's not okay to share it with me in that way. I'm not open to that. If we're going to be in relationship, I'm open to receiving feedback from you. I'm open to trying to do things differently. And here's some ground rules for how that would look for me in terms of, yeah, not. Not talking down to me or, you know, whatever the rules you might be. You know, there's a lot of languaging ones we often help guys with. Of. Yeah. How do you phrase things? So it's not demeaning and it is more revealing of your state. Like, that's stuff a couple can learn. But sometimes big shifts I've seen for men are when they stand up for themselves and say, you know what? How you're talking to me right now is not okay. And I'm happy to have this conversation again when we've both cooled down, but for now, I'm just gonna leave and I'm gonna come back in 20 minutes and we're gonna see if we can do this differently. And the willingness to kind of stand up for, like, themselves and I would say for, like, a deeper sense of love in the relationship can be a game changer. Again, it doesn't mean you're ignoring then all the criticism or, you know, the feedback, but there's the. The way it's delivered that if you're not care. If we're not careful as men, particularly nice guys, we can kind of just take it, like, just take it on the chin. Take it on the chin. And that will often make the whole situation worse. If we allow that dynamic of, you know, bullying in some extent to happen versus what happens when we step in and say, like, I'm open to hearing that and it does not feel good to me how this is being shared right now, etc.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think that's a really good point, because if. If your partner can't hear you in that, that's a problem, right? Like, yeah, it's just. I keep coming back to that. Get yourself in the right groups, get yourself the right mentors. Be in a space where you're connected to people who can help you evaluate and help you with the phrasing and help you, just help you. Because one of the things I've noticed is we have countless men who've had BPD Xs in the past, come through our program, grown, stepped into their power, developed their masculine, felt connected to other men, basically grown into themselves, grown into the healthier, more expressed, more powerful, more engaged version of themselves. And then the women they attract after that, it's just a whole lot less work because they don't have bpd. So it's not like they have to do all these other things in relationship to get different results. It's like they change, they grow, they develop and then they attract their reciprocal, they start to attract healthier women and the whole game changes. And I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with men where they're like, wow, this is a lot easier. Like I, I, you know, I told her, I just said, you know, I've never told a woman this, but I, there's a part of me that really wants to see you this weekend and there's part of me that really needs to be alone and just recharge. And she was cool with it. She was like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Like, no problem, I'll go out with my women friends, have a great like recharge session. And his like little mind was blown. Like holy. I didn't even know that was possible. But it's like when you're attracting different kinds of people, then you just effortlessly have different kinds of experiences. So that was something that I wanted to, to share too about the kind of like picking, poking situation. Sometimes it's like, sometimes it's like, I need you to be more present. I need you to be more present. And a man who is holding on to a lot of grief and rage about things that have happened in his past cannot be that present. Just in general, he's going to be, have a really hard time being deeply present because there's an old material in his body mind that is stuck and, and, and like, and it takes a lot of energy to hold that in. So many of you probably listened to the Michael Holt episode, the recent Michael Holt episode that I think we went into this in depth. But there's another piece here around just what I have witnessed in, in our men and our clients is as they grow, they shed layers. They're just shedding crap and tension and shame and old energy from their body minds. And then they are more present and available. They are having different experiences in dating they are having, it's just a Whole different experience and then who they're attracting from there and they're more in their power and all of that. There's a virtuous cycle there that goes up. And that's not to say that this pattern won't arise. It will. But this pattern arising with a partner who's like also invested, also doing her work, also trying, who does praise you, who does appreciate you, who does say, I see that you're trying to. I appreciate that you're showing up. I can't tell you how many times I told that man, you know, I really appreciate that you're still with me in the room right now, that you're listening, that I feel met right now. You know, this is, I was really stressed out about telling you this. I was really anxious and I feel like you're listening. Like I told him what I loved and what I was appreciating and what was helping me and what was helping us. A lot. A lot. So there wasn't, it wasn't one sided. It didn't feel terrible or what was the steaming pile of awfulness that you said earlier? I thought that was a good quote.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: So, yeah. As we sort of start to wrap up here, I'm wondering, is there anything else that you can kind of speak to around what has helped you kind of show up in this middle way? And of course we're all still learning and everything, but I really liked what you said of framing it as. She's telling me this because she wants us to be a strong couple. She's telling me this because she wants to be close to me. She's not telling me this because she wants to go off and be with someone else. It's because she's invested here and she wants us to work. That feels like a powerful frame. Is there anything else that you found kind of helps helps you in that finding that middle way?
Jason Lange: Yeah, all the work we kind of just talked about in terms of doing inner work work, but I would also say outer work. And what I mean by that is just like taking care of self, getting of sleep, eating well, working out is what allows me to be present in my body for that feedback. Right. Again, sometimes the worst place I've I've been in is when I'm already wiped or drained and then she's coming at me. Then it's just like, ah, there's just already nothing in the tank and now you want more, more. So me learning to expand my tank like I have a bigger gas tank now than I did two years ago. 100. I'm taking better care of myself. So there's a way I can be more present with my partner in these kind of conversations and not collapse. And.
Melanie Curtin: The.
Jason Lange: The feedback piece from other men, I think is really important as well. Or trusted third parties. It doesn't even necessarily have to be, you know, other men. Like, I learned a lot going to couples counseling. I've learned. Learned a lot being in men's groups with older peers in particular, who have helped me dial in. So my own intuition to. To be able to trust and know when like, oh, yeah, this feels right. Yeah, she's right. Like, I did drop that, and there's no excuse, and I just need to honor that or that sometimes. Like, yeah, no, this doesn't feel right. Like, this actually doesn't feel entirely like my thing here. Like, other men have sometimes helped me dial that in and learn to trust that. So sometimes I can. I can push back a little bit or push back on the tone or things that I couldn't afford. That's been super invaluable. You know, as a kind of more nice guy on the shame side of the spectrum, like, learning that it's not always me has been a huge thing to just, like, relax into that of like, okay, this isn't always me. I think the last thing I'm thinking about here that just struck me here, I'll just share quickly. Is the. Is also the ability to discern and be aware of. Even if I didn't intentionally do something, it can have an emotional impact on my partner. And it took me a long time to not just try to explain why she was wrong of like, well, you don't understand. That wasn't my intent or I meant to do this or it was an accident, which doesn't really matter nearly as much as just honoring the Wow. I. I can totally see, like, that wasn't my intention. And I'm really getting. Like, this was devastating for you. And I'm sorry. Like, I'm sorry for that. You know, I'm sorry that you're feeling that way. Like, not in a condescending way, but like a realizing there's an emotional impact there. Even if I didn't intentionally go for it or it wasn't out of malice or something like, that has been a total game changer changer. And just being able to acknowledge that for me and for my partner without again, always having to go into, like, defend and explain and give a reason why, but just, like, why. Yeah, that I realize, you know, I want you to know that wasn't my intent. And I'm really getting, like, you feel really hurt about that. And I am committed to, like, how can we rewrite that script moving forward so that doesn't happen again?
Melanie Curtin: I really appreciate you bringing that up because that difference between intent and how something is received is sort of the essence of empathy. It's the essence of it. And I loved what you said about. Oh, I can. I can see how. How that. How you took it that way. I. I can see that that is deeply soothing to me. I find that very soothing because I think women. I think as women, we have been told that we are too sensitive or too emotional or hysterical or. For centuries. Right. So we're holding a lot of that tension in our bodies, and it's been passed down to us generationally, so we've been invalidated a lot. And so to have someone say, oh, yeah, I can see how you would feel that way. I can see how you feel that way. I can see how you would feel that way is validating, even if you wouldn't feel that way about it. You saying, I can see how that landed that way, and I'm sorry, is soothing. And I think, kind of to your point, it doesn't need to be much more elaborate than that. I do like the like. Yeah, let's. Let's figure this out. Let's figure out how we can do this better next time or how, you know, let's workshop it or brainstorm or. I think that's a part of the equation that when we get derailed by a shame spiral, when we get derailed by stonewalling or the silent treatment, or when the completion of the repair doesn't happen frequently, we don't even get to the brainstorm part of, like, how do we do this better next time? Because we're still in the first section of the fight. And one thing in working with couples that I've seen is that as they get more skilled at repair, they get more skilled at the brainstorming of, you know, diffusing or smoothing things out or catching things sooner, to your point. And. And it. And it works. It actually does work. Right. Figuring out, you know, one of our men made a really good point about noticing that this pattern often arose when they hadn't seen each other for a few weeks. So he was in a bit of a distance relationship. And it's like, okay, clearly there's something in our connection where we need to feel more connected. If we're going to be apart physically, then what can we do? How can. What are Other things that we can do that have you feel cherished. Right. That, that we can bring in intentionally to help with that feeling. Because when the feeling is there, when I feel seen, when I feel cherished, when I feel adored, when I feel met, I don't feel pissed. Like it's like, it's sort of like you said, you know, when the tank is full, then the problems aren't happening as much. So let's, let's think about this. Let's brainstorm what would feel good. And there's a spirit of exploration rather than you're always getting it wrong and you know, so I think there's value too to having those meta conversations which can only really happen if you can do the first part of repair.
Jason Lange: Absolutely. It's possible. Just so you guys know, like, you know, again, if it's, it doesn't, doesn't necessarily work if the partner has some pretty strong BPD tendencies, but most women don't. And so a lot of relationships it's very possible to move this and, and make some shifts here so you can step out of this pattern which, you know, we talk a lot about men of. One of the first steps you can do that is to name the pattern. And there's a whole, you know, teaching we do with guys around that that like you really can change this moving forward and it can get a lot better. I know it has in my relationship.
Melanie Curtin: And I, I would say, yeah, that what has been really helpful to me is when men have owned their part when they've said, listen, I've noticed this thing that I do which is I withdraw, I go, I kind of do this thing where I go away and I, I'm sorry, I don't want to do that to you. I don't want to be someone who just leaves. And I wanted to bring it up because I know this has happened for me in the past and I think I just did that to you this weekend and I wanted to just talk about it. There's something very mature to me about a man who is self aware and it has me feel safer with him. It feels like there's hope here, there's possibility I'm not the only one tracking the relationship. Like I'm not the only one tracking the relationship and able to speak to, to my patterns. So I guess even when there's not something to fix, just owning your part or, or kind of outing yourself like, hey, here's a pattern that I've experienced in the past and here's what I'm committed to doing. About it. And sometimes something that helps is if you say, you know what I'm saying? I'm thinking that you might need some space right now. Is that true? You know, that's just one example of how you can workshop as a. As a partnership. Because if you're. If you're a man and you hear her say, like, hey, I'm noticing maybe you need some space right now. Is that true? That might be really soothing for you rather than if you've had partners in the past who were very demanding or shrill or, you know, needed a lot in that moment and couldn't give you any space. And it felt overwhelming and scary for. For. For your woman to say, hey, I'm noticing maybe you need some space. Is that true? Might be enough for you to just breathe and be like, oh, wow, she's not actually attacking me right now. Maybe you're gonna be able to stay in that moment a little bit longer. Who knows? But the point is you can work together as a team when you're both present and invested and. And honestly, when you've done enough. Yeah. Personal growth work to be able to do that. Frankly, that's part of. One of. One of the most transformational things I ever heard was you can't have a healthy relationship without two healthy partners. And I was like, oh, wow, sense. I never thought about it like that. I'm not saying perfect partners. I'm not saying perfect partners, but. But two healthy partners. So. So, yeah. So as we start to wrap up here, just want to say that if you are interested in coaching, you can take our free training at Evolutionary Men Training. If this kind of resonated with you and you're interested in exploring that, you can do that. A huge thank you to my patrons. We had our live Q and A this week, and it was really awesome. I think it was actually yesterday, so I'm just still glowing from that and really appreciative of my patrons. So thank you to everyone who is supporting me on Patreon. If you are interested in doing that. If you join at $10 a month or more, then you get access to those live Q and A's each month. And you can just find that by Dear Men podcast and Patreon. Just Google those. Oh, and yeah, I would just say if this episode resonated or if you have more to share about your experience with this pattern, I'll be very open to hearing. I do want to write an article or somehow collate this research that I've already done, so you can always hit me up@dearmen podcastmail.com.
