222: Are you using your woman for sex? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: To use sex, so to speak, to change their state. And that happening in a way that's not connected. So it's not actually tuned in to what's going on for their partner. Where they're at. Are they even enjoying it? Is now a good time like any of that, so to speak? It's kind of just like a one way street. Like I'm gonna. Yeah. Use my partner to feel better.

Melanie Curtin: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode. I'm thrilled to have Jason with me as always, my co coach extraordinaire. Thanks for being here.

Jason Lange: Glad to be back.

Melanie Curtin: So today we're talking about are you using your woman for sex or have you ever used your woman for sex? And I think this is not something that you may have necessarily thought about or thought about in this way, but it is a pattern we've seen in some of our clients and it's definitely a pattern I've seen in some of my guy friends or my women friends partners. And I believe we'll go through this, but I think that it has a lot to do with. I think it's connected deeply to loneliness and men being very lonely in our culture and not being supported as well as they could be. And then a whole host of problems stem from that. So before we get into all that, maybe can you sort of break down what we mean by are you using your woman for sex?

Jason Lange: Yeah. How. How I've seen this show up in my life in terms of times past and in some of our clients are. I mean, I think this is kind of what they mean. They sometimes mean when we talk about objectifying women of. It's like sex is a means to an end, to change my state, the way I'm feeling in my body. Right. In that there's a way all humans can do this. But I think particularly it's maybe a little more common for men to use sex, so to speak, to change their state. And that happening in a way that's not connected. So it's not actually tuned in to what's going on for their partner where they're at, Are they even enjoying it? Is now a good time like any of that, so to speak? It's kind of just like a one way street. Like I'm gonna use my partner.

Melanie Curtin: To feel better.

Jason Lange: To feel better. That's kind of what the trick is.

Melanie Curtin: Can you say a little bit more about what you mean by change my state? Does that mean I'm feeling anxious about the week or whatever and I want to feel better? And I. And when we have sex I feel better, therefore I want sex.

Jason Lange: Yeah. What I mean by change, state is just. State is literally whatever we're feeling in the moment. And so for a lot of us, mental health, stress in our bodies, tension, fear, anxiety, all of these different things can kind of build up inside of us. And if we don't have the right tools, we reach for things less consciously to help us change that. So booze, weed, alcohol, things we've talked about on here before, but of which sex is a really powerful one as well. That, okay, I'm stressed out in my body. I don't want to feel stressed out in my body, so I need sex to relieve that tension. Right. The, the whole like, tension and release cycle is a big deal for men in terms of we feel tension in our body and we want to get rid of that tension. And orgasm, ejaculation, sex is often a, a powerful way to do that. And that tends to shut us down in some ways and kind of quiet the system and relax men. And so there's a way men, we can literally use our partners for that. So, like, I gotta have sex and I'm stressed out. I need this so I can unwind or get off, so to speak. Like, which you could think about is like getting off this mound of tension that I have in my body. Right. Like getting it off of me and often putting it on a partner in some sense. So the, you know, we all do these kinds of things in different ways. But again, I think the key here is for, for some men, for some of us, we can start to do it somewhat consciously, but mostly unconsciously, where it's, it's actually disconnected. Right. It's. It's a means to an end.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I just want to be clear that, you know, we are sex positive. So I want to be really clear that we're not shaming. If you're, if you're listening to this and you're sort of starting to feel that sense of desperation of like, what am I supposed to do then? I could, I could see that. I could see if I were a man, kind of like, what do you, what, what am I supposed to do then? And I want to be clear that we're not shaming any man for his libido. Your libido is sacred. Your sex drive is what drives life forward. You know, we're very sex positive. Very, very sex positive. What I have noticed is that exactly what you're pointing to of many men don't have that many ways of regulating themselves, you know, of soothing themselves. Right. Having themselves feel better. So. And for many of our men, sex is one of the ways that they feel soothed. And we're also not saying that that's bad. It's not that that's bad. What I have noticed is that in many of the men, I've noticed this pattern in. There's a deficiency of other places for them to be soothed, specifically emotional closeness. One thing that we've mentioned here already is using your partner for sex in order to feel less tense, in order to feel less wound up, in order to feel less anxious, in order to feel less stressed, in order to feel calmer, more soothed. There's also a sense of I want to feel closeness, I want to feel warmth. I want to feel not physical warmth, although that's part of it, but just I want to feel closeness. I want to feel emotional closeness. And, you know, I think most people are familiar with the study. They did, the cruel study they did with baby monkeys where they had fake mom monkeys. And one was covered with cloth and was soft and offered some sense of closeness. And then another monkey mom was made of steel but had milk. So that monkeys could get food, right? Biologically, they need food to survive. They could get what they needed to survive, and they chose the cloth monkey mom because they wanted closeness. Closeness and emotional safety is a need. It is a human need. It is not a nice to have. It is a biological imperative. We have to have it or we start to shut down and get lonely. And with loneliness is terrible for your health. So I don't want to shame anyone for. I don't want to shame anyone for your needs. You need closeness. Yes, you need closeness. You find closeness through sex with your wife. There's also nothing wrong with that. The problem is when it's the only channel, it's one of the only channels in your life for closeness. Then there be there there. Then this desperation thing happens and this neediness thing happens and this dependence happens. Because if, if, if I need this, if I need your body, right, I need sex with you to feel good. And I don't get that really anywhere else. Then now I'm dependent upon you and what I've witnessed. I'm thinking of, you know, a couple in my life where I think that he unconsciously uses his woman for sex, doesn't realize that's what he's doing. But it puts an immense amount of pressure on her because she's not clueless. She can feel his need. She can feel his level of. It's all, it's past desire. It's kind of like, yeah, I really need this. And she can feel that he will probably leave her if she doesn't put out for him. Honestly, that's kind of how it feels. And I don't think any man listening wants to be that guy. And I want to be clear, we are not saying that any man is doing this consciously. They're not thinking to themselves. I'd like to put a ton of pressure on my wife to have sex with me because it's the only way I can regulate my nervous system. That is not what it sounds like or anything, but it. That can be what happens. What ends up happening is that there's a dependence on this one channel. And for a lot of men, their romantic partner is one of their only confidants in life. They don't really have that sense of emotional connection or closeness with anyone else. Even if they're seeing people on a regular basis, like colleagues, they don't have that sense of. I keep using that word of just closeness, warmth, connection, safety, trust, love. Like all of that is just as. There's this one place where they're getting it. Is there anything you want to. Else you want to add about that part of that pattern?

Jason Lange: Oh, so, so much. I mean, another way to think about what we're talking about of like relieving tension and why I think this is a big drive for a lot of men is when we haven't gotten any training or don't have a lot of tools necessarily on depending on how we are raised and whatnot. Sex is also often one of the only places we can get the fuck out of our heads and we're actually be in our bodies and feel the relief of not constantly ruminating about our success or what we're doing or the stresses in life. So there's. There's like a. I just want to. I can feel like literally I can feel in my body when I'm. When I'm having sex, when I'm having intercourse. And it gives me like a. A connection to myself that a lot of men, and I certainly didn't before, like, know how to get otherwise. Because it's not something we're taught. It's not something really celebrated for in that this need for closeness and connection, I think is a. Is a part of that. And for a lot of men, it's the only pathway they have. So it creates that kind of. It is almost sometimes like an urgency or, you know, strong word, but sometimes like a desperation. Like, I need this because I need to feel Human. I need to feel my body, I need to feel here and I need to get out of this kind of like chaos and in my head. And that has massive, you know, implications for the relationship and for polarity. Like, you know, some women might be into that feeling of their partner really needing them, but other women, that's like, suddenly you're asking my body to hold that stress for and with you a lot of times, which isn't necessarily conducive to the like most regenerative, restorative lovemaking a couple can have. So I think that's a really powerful piece that, you know, that, that feeling connected sense for a lot of guys, the only way they know how to get there is, is through sex. So it creates this really kind of gnarly dynamic that, yeah, I need this and, and I'm going to do whatever it takes here. And if I don't get it here, where else am I going to get it? And so there can be like actual fear behind that too. And you know, another place I've seen this up is it's kept guys in relationships way longer than they should because there's. If I'm not getting this here, I'm going to be alone. Like, literally I will be alone. And this physical connection is the one place in my life I feel good. Oh my God. There's so much chaos around it, you know, depending on the type of relationship, but that the, like, stay in it because there's that fear of losing that.

Melanie Curtin: It's a really good point about the urgency and the, the sense of the risk is really high. Right? Like if I lose this, I lose a way to regulate. And again, I don't think very many people are actually aware of what they, what they use to regulate. And what tends to happen is we find something that works and we kind of keep doing it. So if we're 14 and our parents are getting divorced and it's really anxiety provoking and then somebody hands us a beer and we notice that it takes that horrible buzzing in our head away. Like all of the stress thoughts, it kind of mutes them. Then we do more of that. And that's true of weed and it's true of corn and it's true of whatever is it is that we're using to regulate in this episode. We're kind of pointing out that sex with your partner can be a version of that. And we're just raising some awareness around that fact. So I kind of want to switch gears a little bit now and just hear, you know, because when you were talking about. It's a way that men get out of their head. I think that's such a good point. And I'm hoping we can kind of COVID a few other ways that you can get out of your head. One, there are many, but I think one that I've enjoyed and is an example of this is dance, taking dance class, going to dance events, even if it's once a week, there's a way. You're in your body, you're with the music, it's fun, you're interacting with different people, it's embodied. You're moving your actual body. That's just one example of ways that you can be excited and regulated and having a good time and smiling, laughing, dancing, singing. These are all ways that human beings have regulated themselves for millennia. And a lot of us in modern culture don't really have very much fun. Fun is not a thing that we have a lot. And there's actually a real cost to that is. Is part of what we're pointing out here. Right. So what are some other examples of ways that men get out of their head or that you have found for you have been useful in that capacity?

Jason Lange: Yeah. So in terms of like, the healthier end of the spectrum, you know, I would use the big. The big term in men's work these days of embodiment. So there's all kinds of embodiment practices, literally things you can do to get out of your head and into your body, things like breath work, things like exercise, cardio, weightlifting, yoga, kundalini, qigong. Those are all different kind of embodiment practices you can do where it's about doing the practice. And what tends to happen during those practices is your attention goes away from your head and it goes into your body and into the moment. And that creates some of that relief. I think, like, like you just said, healthy connection to other people is actually a way to get out of there of like, just really being face to face with someone and making eye contact and they're fully present for you is a way that can often quiet the mind when, like, someone's really with us. You know, I. There's a way to do this unconsciously, but I certainly love like, literally going to the movies and just kind of, okay, for this two hours, I'm just going to go into this world and just don't have to deal with my world for a while. And there's, you know, always the moments towards the end of like, oh, here comes life back. But it's still, it's a relief It's a break and I feel generally more resourced by that. And it's fun, it's fun getting into nature. Getting into nature.

Melanie Curtin: Yep, getting into it. I was going to mention that too. Kayaking, hiking clubs, anything where you're moving through. Nature tends to be pretty regulating for human beings. Going to the beach, going for a walk, putting your, I mean it's, I'm in California at the moment. Getting any part of you in the cold ass water will get you real quick.

Jason Lange: Cold water therapy, any kind of outdoor activities, like basically things you would have done before civilization, tend to get you in your body. So you're like walking around outside, you're moving something, you're exerting yourself, you're sitting down and facing someone. Like those tend to be the things that kind of bring us in to just okay, here I am. Nourishing your body, you know, is another one too of like, yeah, go sit in the sauna, go get a massage, go to a sound bath. Like all of these things will tend to bring us into the present, which tends to happen in our body. Right. It kind of relaxes us into now and um, not always, but can sometimes also downshift us into more of that parasympathetic state where we're not like that, the activated selves where the mind tends to be. But we're in that more kind of relaxed state. You know, the, the end of the yoga set, it might be hot, it might be fiery, but then there's always the wind down into Shavasana, right. Which is just about oh sweet. Now I just get to be in this like stillness for a little while. And that stillness is we've talked about before is super rejuvenating for the masculine. Like that's the thing we, we want. The thing we want is the feeling of no thing. Like, and that's what orgasm tends to bring. Men is like, oh, okay, well for that 30 seconds or a couple minutes afterwards, like there's just nothing, there's no tension in me, there's no need to do anything. It's kind of the sledgehammer approach, so to speak. And it's beautiful. It's beautiful. You know, when we're in a long term relationship or in a partnership, yes, we're going to actually use sex for co regulating but there's a huge difference between it being conscious and unconscious. And I think part of why we're raising the red flag here is it's pretty easy to do it unconsciously. And then in that environment it actually tends to not necessarily Be the best experience for your partner. Right. Like, this is not necessarily the guys we work with, but, you know, as you know from your research, and these guys may be listening, know, like, a lot of women never orgasm with their partners. Right. Like that. It's just not. That's kind of the. Unfortunately, the baseline.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Relating. And I think this is part of it because, like, a man just goes in there, gets what he wants, and, oh, I'm done. Okay, great. Instead of, like, slowing down and attuning to his partner and, like, well, actually, maybe she doesn't. It's not going to work for her to dive straight into penetrative sex right now. And we need to hang out and connect for a little bit and build some rapport and open each other up.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And maybe I need to regulate myself a little bit. So I'm going to describe a little bit of my experience as someone who has been in this situation. I don't think this is exactly the same, but I was dating a man for a while who worked in health care. He had a pretty stressful job, and he sometimes would come back from work, and I could tell that he was wound up. And he. He basically had two ways he regulated. One was alcohol, and the other was me. And sometimes it's interesting because sometimes when he had. When we had sex, it felt like he was really there and he was noticing me. And then other times when he had sex. And this is, I think, more where we're going with this episode. It felt like, this is something I need to do for him so that he feels better. This is something I'm choosing to do with him because I know he'll feel better after. And that's not the same thing as, wow, I'm really turned on. Why? I feel really seen, wow, this feels really warm and cozy or hot and sexy. It's like, okay, yeah, he'll feel better if we do this. And it was a little bit. It was kind of a strange sensation because I wouldn't say that in those moments I wanted to have sex with him. What I would say is I did want him to feel better. Like, I. There was a motivation there, but the motivation wasn't, oh, this feels really good. You know, wow, we're so connected. It was more like, great, he'll get off and then he'll feel better and he'll. Then he'll feel more relaxed in his nervous system. Then I'll feel more relaxed.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: Because I can feel the tension in him. And I think that if I had stayed in that relationship and this is part of why I didn't, by the way. I think if I had stayed in that relationship, I probably would have gotten resentful at some point about that pattern. Like, I think I would have gotten resentful, and I think it would have been really hard to describe to him. And I think this is a trap a lot of couples fall into where most. Most women don't have the language or the nuance to say, you're using me to regulate. And it doesn't feel so good. And so instead they say, like, I don't feel like it, or I'm not in the mood, or I don't want to right now. And part of what the man hears is, you're too much or you want sex too much. You're, you know, you're a sexaholic, or you're a fiend, or, you know, which isn't exactly what's going on. So in my case with that man, a couple things I would have preferred is, for example, he gets home and he goes for a run and regulates a little bit that way. He plays with his dog and gets some connection that way. He calls a friend on his way home from the hospital and processes a little bit of what's going on. Right. That he has outside connection, meaningful connection. We're going to talk more about this in depth, but meaningful connection outside of me, such that he was a little bit more regulated when he came to me. And then it would have felt more like, oh, you're actually relaxed in your body and you want me. Like, there's a different quality of, ooh, I feel seen. I feel turned on. You know, a man being present and relaxed in his body is hot. You know, there's a reason that you and I mention all the time that whoever is breathing more deeply in any moment is holding the masculine pole. And you can't breathe deeply when you're all wound up. You can't. You can't do it. You cannot have. Those two things can't coexist. So my experience on the other side of this was, it's not that I don't want sex with you. It's not that I don't like sex with you, but there's a qualitative difference in the type of sex we have sometimes. And it has to do with you regulating your nervous system. And it's. And again, I wasn't, like, never willing to do that. Like, there are times and there are. There are sacred moments when, yes, we do, both of us use each other's bodies to Help us regulate. I need a hug, I need cuddles, I need to bang. I'm just like, that happens to me too. But if it's repeated and sustained and all the time, it's tending to point to a deficit in other things. Most of all, I would argue that's healthy ways to regulate and connection, which falls under the category of healthy ways to regulate. That man that I described, he didn't have any close friends. His best friend lived in another city. He did not prioritize seeing that friend. It was like maybe sort of, kind of if it fits in. But it wasn't like, I go see that friend every quarter or I go see that friend every six months. He had people that he went to the gym with, but he didn't meaningfully, you know, he didn't have emotional safety with any other man in his life. True emotional safety. I can really be myself. I can fully open up. I'm fully here. And I'm wondering if you can walk us through your experience in your life having not had that and what that was like and then basically developing it. Because my understanding of your life is you didn't always have close male friendships. That's something that developed more as you grew in personal growth. But can you kind of COVID those bases of what your life was like and what relating with women was like before and after?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would, I would say one point before I jump into that, I think that you highlighted. I think I just really want to underline like we're pro sex. And yes, part of the benefit of being in a relationship is being able to co regulate with each other. I think that the major differentiator is self awareness and consciousness. So I think what we're speaking to here is a lot of men use their partners for self regulation without even really realizing it. So it's not a clean ask. It's not like, wow, I had a really stressful day. And you know what? I feel like you and I connecting and being intimate would be really useful for me right now. And I want to feel close to you and da da da. Instead it's like, you know, kind of I need to have sex. And in some sense, whether we're connected or not doesn't matter. So I can get the stress off of myself. But that awareness that is, is really different when it's like, hey, I do need a little extra support tonight. Would you be willing to. And it's not. And there's the other word I guess that comes to mind is there's not necessarily just like A latent expectation. Well, this is what you're supposed to do for me, right? That there, there's much more understanding that yeah, this is a give and take and if I'm constantly taking, that's not going to feel very good for my partner. She's probably not going to have very good sex with me and it's not going to really encourage her to want to have more sex with me. Because if, if it's from that stressful place, she's probably going to feel worn out at the end. She's not going to feel that like regenerative closeness that good healthy sexuality can bring. So I think that's just really key guys. And you know the, the other word under here, like that we. That's interesting because. Right. I talked about for some guys it's the only way to get into our bodies and feel our bodies. I think another big piece around the self regulation that involves everything we're about to talk about here is feeling in general that oh, if there's something I don't want to feel, sex is a good kind of route around that. In that for me, in my journey, I definitely had some different seasons of different men, some of whom I was closer to, some of whom I wasn't throughout my life. But as I've gone, I've built much, much deeper connections with men and gotten way better at asking for help when I need it. Of just like, okay, hey, I'm having a tough time. Here's what's going on for me. Can you guys just listen, give me, give me some, some feedback or something. Because there were times, you know, even when I was older or younger that I had some men around, but I didn't know how to ask them for support. It wasn't comfortable for me. I didn't know what that looked like. So it was just like hanging out with my friends, but I was bottled up with them too.

Melanie Curtin: That's actually a really good point and I want to pause there because that makes a lot of sense to me. The man, for example, that I was mentioning, I think he actually did have a few people around, men and women that wanted to be there for him and probably could have gone to deeper places than he knew, but he was not going to ask them for help. And I think that's a disservice that our culture does to men. There's so many. But I think that is a, that is fallout from the patriarchy. And what I mean by that is men and boys especially, right, right around the age of 10, 11, 12 boys are getting the message that they are not allowed to be close to other boys because of the deep seated homophobia in our culture. And they are not allowed to have feelings. So they get labeled a pussy or a fag. And this still happens 2022. It's still happening. And essentially taught not to be human. You are not allowed to have feelings of grief. You are not allowed to, you aren't even allowed to drink certain drinks. I mean, it's so insane the way that it works.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Melanie Curtin: But that acculturation means that men are often cut off. And so the only person that they're sharing deeper feelings with is their partner, is their wife. Is their woman their intimate partner, to your point? So even if they have other men around that they could be close with, which it sounds like was sort of in your case, it's not like you didn't have them. But nobody was doing the closeness thing. Nobody was actually dropping in with each other and sharing what was really on their heart, you know, and that is, there's such a huge cost to that because then you again come back to you, then you're reliant on this one person for your emotional needs. And that's kind of what we're getting at of that dependence and that reliance. And so I just want to highlight what you said, Jason, which is a big part of your journey, was you got way better at asking for help when you needed it. It was like, oh, shit, I'm not, I'm not doing okay today. Totally realize that. A and B, I'm gonna reach out to some men, I'm gonna reach out to some of my brothers and get some help and tell us a little bit about like how that actually works. I mean, it works.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I think, you know, part of what's taking it even to the next level is I, I is not even waiting until it's an emergency situation. But literally having quite structured into my life multiple times a week where I'm sitting down virtually or in person with other men and I have to do check ins. Here's where I'm at in my life. Here's what's going on, here's what's hard for me. So it doesn't, it doesn't even get to kind of the place it used to before because there's just this like constant tapping in. And the deeper men I'm involved with these days, you know, the, they know when something's going on just because they're present with me and they're like, wow, you seem a little quieter a Little da da da da da. And then I have to, like, start talking about it or something. So just getting myself into those structures has been a big thing. And then just, yeah, learning to share and learning that, yeah, a couple times a year, I need to be able to particularly, you know, you and I both share this. As leaders, we're often holding space for other people, and it's, like, wicked important that we have times and places where we're being held by others. And that's foundational to my life now. Like, I. I gotta have that. And I use it. I've used it a lot these last couple years through some pretty intense stuff. And it's just a process of in. In some sense using the structure of the men I'm with to feel the things I'm feeling.

Melanie Curtin: That's a good way of putting it.

Jason Lange: Which I would normally avoid or put off or ruminate around or. You know, before I had a partner, you know, for the regular listeners, my version of that regulation was just jerking off Internet porn. I think it's why a lot of guys do it. It's regulation. You don't even need a partner to do it right. But it's like, I can change how I'm feeling in my body right now. I can get out of my head for a little while, and then I can, like, decompress my system. And when we don't have any of these other tools, that's kind of what we reach for. But having connection to other men, I mean, it's been such a game changer for me because, I mean, the crazy thing, like, the men's groups are great because they can bring a lot of accountability and, like, functional stuff supporting you in challenging times. But a lot of times it's just freaking talking about it. Just, this is how I'm feeling, and then I feel it, and that's it. That's, like, enough to move it and feel, like, come out and feel better. I feel better. Like, feeling a little more connected to my men, like, and it's kind of ridiculous sometimes that it's just. It's talking about it, and that's just not the instinct for so many of us guys. So instead, we hold it back. We hold it back. It gets more and more tense, gets more and more intense. And then we realize it's really tense and there's a lot to feel down there, and we don't want to feel that, so. Well, what's a great. What's a great workaround for that? And have sex with my partner and just relieve all that tension. And in some ways it's like a shortcut or short circuit where you don't have to deal with the thing. You can just kind of go around it for the moment and find like a pressure release valve. And I think that's what a lot drives a lot of us guys to need that and to want that. And I think that's also what makes it kind of sometimes very unsexy for, For. For a woman, for a partner. Like when they can feel my man's got something he's stuck on here and he can't fix it by himself. So he actually needs my body to feel better. And I just, like, my body closes up just feeling that. It's just like, oh, no, like, that's not a. That would not make me open and connected, so to speak.

Melanie Curtin: And I think that, you know, it's exactly what you said about consciousness. I really believe that when we talk about masculine and feminine or alpha and omega, Omega is flow. Feminine is flow energetically. This isn't just whose body you're in. And the masculine is consciousness, awareness, consciousness, pure consciousness. And so consciousness is. Is sexy and unconsciousness is not. And so my current partner, for example, is a lot more conscious and aware than that other man was. And not coincidentally, he's also much better supported. So when he is going through something, he, to your point, already has men's groups set up. He already has them set up so he can talk about whatever's happening for him already at the next men's group and therapy. So I feel like the pressure is off of me. I am a part of his world. I'm a big world. I'm a big part of his world, but I'm not his whole world. And that feels like such a relief. I can't even tell you. I can't even express how much it feels like I get to be with him and he can process things with different people as well as with me. And so then it feels like there's just a way that then he is more available to me as my partner of like, what's happening for you? What's on your heart? Because he is supported in other ways. When, when you're not supported anywhere else, I think it becomes really easy to get dependent. And that's what we. What we don't want for you. So I again want to kind of highlight that. I don't think that that man back in the day ever wanted me to feel used. He never. He would have been horrified to know that I ever felt used. I don't think he ever wanted me to feel used. I don't think he was at all conscious or aware that this was part of his experience. And I don't think that he at all put it together with, oh, you actually need to become more emotionally developed, and you actually need. You need to develop closer relationships with men. I don't think he would ever have put those things together. I think maybe he would have said, you know, therapy, right? Maybe he would have said, okay, that's probably something I should do. But I think the connection between. And we've talked about this on other episodes, the connection between deep friendships with other men and healthy relationships with women is strong. There is a strong correlation there. And I think that's something that's really misunderstood and not sort of discussed in our culture to our detriment.

Jason Lange: 100%, as we often talk about with guys we work with now. Like, one of the best investments you can actually make into your current relationship or future relationship is building relationships with other men. Like, because it will impact the system. Whatever that system is just you and a partner, your family. Like, whatever that is. It'll be stronger having that bigger system around it. Quite simply, that then frees you up. Right? Like. Right. The kind of paradoxes of, like, well, I'm not the only one that has to hold this for my partner is. Well, for me, it tends to make me actually feel a little more generous. I'm like, well, I can hold a little bit. I really want to help her. Like, she's working on this, this, and this. But when it's that feeling. And, you know, I had been with partners who didn't have that network, and it was like, if I wasn't available in that moment, they didn't have anywhere to go. And that caused a lot of pain for. For my partner. And then it kind of caused pain for me for feeling guilty for setting a boundary or just not having the resources that at. And it's totally different being with a partner now who has that bigger system. And that's. I just think in general, women tend to have bigger networks. They're just more relational. You know, I certainly. My experience, which isn't necessarily the truth, but is like, that relationalness, it's about emotional connection that doesn't even need physical presence in the same way. So, like, you know, my wife's constantly thinking threads and voxers and voice things and, like, connecting with a lot of women. A lot of guys I know don't naturally gravitate to that. It's like, I'm in front of you or you don't exist. This is often the kind of masculine way. And finding a little middle ground there goes a long way of having these check in places. You know, I've got physical men's groups I meet in person with, virtual men's groups I meet in person with other things that are just threads of guys checking in about different stuff, and people are tracking our health or fitness or whatnot. So. But it's a lot of connection that really kind of supports me in these challenging times.

Melanie Curtin: And I think that's something that should also be mentioned here, is that there's immense value in giving value. So when you are able to contribute to some other man on one of those threads, you feel better. And this is backed up by social science research study. After social science research study, you give people a $20 bill and you say, spend this on whatever you want, they spend it on themselves. Their happiness level doesn't really boost, but if you tell them to spend it on someone else, their happiness level boosts and it stays boosted. So there's something about contribution that is also regulating. So it's not just about. I mean, it's a lot about what we're talking about, of when you need help, you have somewhere to go for it, and you know how to ask for it. That's a big deal. That's something that you learn, right? That I think you learned, Jason. The other thing is you get in those threads and you have some man having a hard time with something. Like, I tried to have sex with my girlfriend the other night, couldn't get it up. I feel humiliated. And you're able to respond and say, man, I've been there. I feel you. I have been there. I understand that you have contributed to someone else's world. You have made them feel less alone. And there's something about that that is good for you, that helps you, that helps regulate you. So there's a virtuous cycle in these relationships of I give to you and that helps me, and when I need help, you help me both ways. You're winning.

Jason Lange: I literally hear this all the time in men's groups. I lead that. Not everybody, but there'll be almost every week there's someone who's showing up that clearly has stuff going on in their life that is like, I just wanted to come here tonight and, like, not be focused on my stuff. And I really just want to hear what's going on for all of you. And that in itself is this, like, relief in medicine of, like. Like, we talk about it's kind of like a break from the, the, the never ending rumination that is our mind. And it's like generally easier to help people, support people in their problems than in our own. It's like, right. Clarity is, well, you just do this and it's, why can't I do that in my life? Right? It gives a break and it does get into that generative where I get to help someone and then suddenly I feel a little better. And then it's like I'm going back to my life more nourished and more resourced and I've created a deeper bond with someone that now I know there, there's like this opportunity for back and forth. So I, I see that all the time of the benefit and how good it can feel to just get out of our own stuff sometimes and be like, oh, well, I'd love to help you with that or support you or I can totally listen to you for a while on that. And sometimes that's all it takes. And then we haven't even touched our problem, but we're more resourced, we're more connected, we're more regulated, so then we can better handle our problem.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great way of putting it. We're more resourced, we have more energy, we have more. I mean, I think all of us have had the experience of getting a really good night's sleep and waking up. And our problems just don't seem as big. They're the same problems, but they just don't seem as big because we have more energy, we have more bandwidth. And that's, I think, a lot of what we're talking about. And something that I really feel is a lot of compassion for men in general. Because I do think that our culture isolates men. There's a way that men are very, very isolated. And so it requires effort. It's like a speed bump, kind of like it requires effort on the part of men to go get that emotional development, go develop those, those relationships. Because it's not just a given. And I think that culturally speaking, it's much more culturally safe for women to connect than it is for men. Women are not shamed. Women have. We have a whole bunch of other problems, don't get me wrong, but we don't. We aren't shamed or humiliated for A, having feelings and B, connecting with each other. We are not told at 12, 13, and 14 that we're a pussy or a fag or other denigrating phrases. If we're connecting with each other, that is Just not something that happens. We're still allowed to hug. We're still allowed to be affectionate. It's like, oh, isn't that cute? They're braiding each other's hair. We are not isolated in the same way that boys are. And I just really want to acknowledge how much I see you. I see you, all of you men out there. I see how lonely it is. I see how much you have been trained to be isolated. And I'm working really hard to help that be solved or, you know, to bring men together and to help them love each other. Because it's really, you know, it's critical to both your lives and the lives of us women who relate with you. It's transformative on both ends.

Jason Lange: And when you don't have any of that, that's where all of this need gets put on these, put on our partners. And for a lot of men, that's put on them sexually. And that's where suddenly, okay, we're using our partner to get this. To get this regulation, to get this shift in state. And, you know, I. I could pretty easily make an argument. There's never been a more isolating time to be a man on the planet than in Western culture right now. Like, just the way we're out of small towns, we're out of churches, we're out of a lot of things that were kind of the bad version of the patriarchy, but, like, gentlemen's clubs and, you know, like, all those different kind of. I don't even know what they. You know, they would always have funny names and stuff, and women weren't allowed, like, a lot of that's washed away. And so there has not been much left for men. And I think we're trying to recreate the healthy versions of that. And, you know, we mostly work with guys here in the US and in the west. And it's like we're an obsessively privatized place. Right. The American dream here is to have my own car in my own slice of land and not be near anyone and not have to interact with anyone. That's the crap we're fed. And then we wonder why we're miserable drinking, addicted to meds, watching TV all day, and don't feel alive because we're not around anyone.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: We don't have any community. We don't have any connection. And. And then suddenly a woman comes along, and she's got a warm body, and she's here and she's present, and for a couple seconds, you know, when I'M having intercourse with her, like I don't have to think about my stuff. Like of course that's going to be like, wow, this is the one thing that doesn't suck, you know, in a lot of ways. So I want to use that. But that long term it's not sustainable. That's, that's the thing. And because we do have guys come who their, their partners get to a place where either sex just isn't happening anymore because it's not pleasurable for them to feel the need of a man coming at them like that in that specific way. Feeling the want of a man is very different. But the need of a man, it's not pleasurable. And it's often, you know, over time it's very easy. It was for me habitually as a man to like not take the time to tune into where is my partner at? I just want to do this thing. And she's a means into the end of that. And that did not go well long term.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I can imagine that. Thank you for also just speaking to the way that we live because I think it's important to highlight it isn't natural the way that we live in the west. And there's a reason that we've as humans lived in tribes physically together most of the time alone time being the rarity rather than the opposite. Because. Because when we live together we are all contributing and when you contribute, you feel better about yourself. So it's not just about having people around, it's also contributing in some way. The elderly folks contribute in this way. The young people do it this way. There's different tasks for the different people. But that sense of togetherness and contribution is foundational to humanity. So it's not a coincidence that one of my dreams is to have a co living community, like a thriving co living community where we do have our own spaces where we live, but we also have communal structures right there. I mean right next door it's not hard to get to. You don't have to figure out parking, you're just all in the same place. And every weekend there's okay, we're planting over here, right. If you want to spend four hours in the garden, we would love to have you. This is what we're doing this week, this is what we're doing next week. We are all contributing to this thing. To me that's my dream because I have witnessed my friends and people doing exactly what you said of getting their own place and then feeling isolated and disconnected and wondering why. Like, well, you're surrounded by concrete. There's no real nature. And it's really hard to see your people. It's really hard.

Jason Lange: Everyone's in a car and everyone.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So I think there's something I have noticed about many of our clients where I just think to myself, God, if I could just gift you a co living community, just a place for you to be around people more, your quality of life would go up right away. There's, there's no reason you shouldn't be happier than you are. There's nothing wrong with you. There's no, you don't, you know. Yeah, we, we are kind of a meds obsessed culture. It's like, I don't think you need meds, you need connection.

Jason Lange: I think you just need community.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And like I said, I think that there's this speed bump effect now where it's like, if you're listening to this and you're lonely, you know, you don't have to be lonely forever. There are lots of actions you can take. It just takes an awareness of, oh, that's the thing that's happening in my life. I'm lonely. I need more connection. I need more, I need more deeper relationships. I need to develop, you know, the emotional awareness and capacity to do that and then do that.

Jason Lange: So, and doing all these things we've talked about, like when you can get to that place where you're more resourced, you have ways to get embodied, you have ways to self regulate, you have community, you have connection, you have a toolkit that is not just having sex with your partner. The, the, the cool thing is you're going to end up having better sex with your partner. Like it's actually going to lead to more good restorative sex long term. The more you're resourced outside of there and it's more like a generative spiral up then, but then you're coming together proactively in, like in a connective place to support each other and nurture each other. And it's not so much like a taking thing, but hey, let's, let's literally create energy in love with each other.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great point. I remember one of our clients who was kind of stuck in this pattern we're describing and he was, you know, overcoming it and growing beyond it through the course of the program. And I remember he was late to one of our calls and he said, yeah, sorry, I was late, we just had a quickie and it was her idea. And I remember that being kind of a turning point of, yeah, this works. Like all of this stuff works. Personal development works. Men's groups work. It's effective and we see the changes. We get to witness it. There's another client I'm thinking of who has a much more connected relationship with his wife. Just a lot more connected. I mean, drastically more connected. And. And I think they're both a lot happier. It's not like paradise all the time, but it is drastically better than it was. I mean, drastically. So it is possible. It does work. It is here for you if you want it. So speaking of that, if you are interested in learning more about us and our coaching, you can go to Evolutionary Men Dearmen. That's Evolutionary Men Dearmen. And you can take our free training. And I think that's about it. Anything else before we wrap?

Jason Lange: Get some support, guys. Everything gets easier. It's not that the problems don't start stop coming, but it's just everything is easier in community. That's just what I'll say.

Melanie Curtin: That's so true.