222: Are you using your woman for sex? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: To use sex, so to speak, to change their state. And that happening in a way that's not connected. So it's not actually tuned in to what's going on for their partner. Where they're at. Are they even enjoying it? Is now a good time like any of that, so to speak? It's kind of just like a one way street. Like I'm gonna. Yeah. Use my partner to feel better.

Melanie Curtin: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode. I'm thrilled to have Jason with me as always, my co coach extraordinaire. Thanks for being here.

Jason Lange: Glad to be back.

Jason Lange: Yeah. How. How I've seen this show up in my life in terms of times past and in some of our clients are. I mean, I think this is kind of what they mean. They sometimes mean when we talk about objectifying women of. It's like sex is a means to an end, to change my state, the way I'm feeling in my body. Right. In that there's a way all humans can do this. But I think particularly it's maybe a little more common for men to use sex, so to speak, to change their state. And that happening in a way that's not connected. So it's not actually tuned in to what's going on for their partner where they're at, Are they even enjoying it? Is now a good time like any of that, so to speak? It's kind of just like a one way street. Like I'm gonna use my partner.

Melanie Curtin: To feel better.

Jason Lange: To feel better. That's kind of what the trick is.

Melanie Curtin: Can you say a little bit more about what you mean by change my state? Does that mean I'm feeling anxious about the week or whatever and I want to feel better? And I. And when we have sex I feel better, therefore I want sex.

Jason Lange: Yeah. What I mean by change, state is just. State is literally whatever we're feeling in the moment. And so for a lot of us, mental health, stress in our bodies, tension, fear, anxiety, all of these different things can kind of build up inside of us. And if we don't have the right tools, we reach for things less consciously to help us change that. So booze, weed, alcohol, things we've talked about on here before, but of which sex is a really powerful one as well. That, okay, I'm stressed out in my body. I don't want to feel stressed out in my body, so I need sex to relieve that tension. Right. The, the whole like, tension and release cycle is a big deal for men in terms of we feel tension in our body and we want to get rid of that tension. And orgasm, ejaculation, sex is often a, a powerful way to do that. And that tends to shut us down in some ways and kind of quiet the system and relax men. And so there's a way men, we can literally use our partners for that. So, like, I gotta have sex and I'm stressed out. I need this so I can unwind or get off, so to speak. Like, which you could think about is like getting off this mound of tension that I have in my body. Right. Like getting it off of me and often putting it on a partner in some sense. So the, you know, we all do these kinds of things in different ways. But again, I think the key here is for, for some men, for some of us, we can start to do it somewhat consciously, but mostly unconsciously, where it's, it's actually disconnected. Right. It's. It's a means to an end.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Relating. And I think this is part of it because, like, a man just goes in there, gets what he wants, and, oh, I'm done. Okay, great. Instead of, like, slowing down and attuning to his partner and, like, well, actually, maybe she doesn't. It's not going to work for her to dive straight into penetrative sex right now. And we need to hang out and connect for a little bit and build some rapport and open each other up.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And maybe I need to regulate myself a little bit. So I'm going to describe a little bit of my experience as someone who has been in this situation. I don't think this is exactly the same, but I was dating a man for a while who worked in health care. He had a pretty stressful job, and he sometimes would come back from work, and I could tell that he was wound up. And he. He basically had two ways he regulated. One was alcohol, and the other was me. And sometimes it's interesting because sometimes when he had. When we had sex, it felt like he was really there and he was noticing me. And then other times when he had sex. And this is, I think, more where we're going with this episode. It felt like, this is something I need to do for him so that he feels better. This is something I'm choosing to do with him because I know he'll feel better after. And that's not the same thing as, wow, I'm really turned on. Why? I feel really seen, wow, this feels really warm and cozy or hot and sexy. It's like, okay, yeah, he'll feel better if we do this. And it was a little bit. It was kind of a strange sensation because I wouldn't say that in those moments I wanted to have sex with him. What I would say is I did want him to feel better. Like, I. There was a motivation there, but the motivation wasn't, oh, this feels really good. You know, wow, we're so connected. It was more like, great, he'll get off and then he'll feel better and he'll. Then he'll feel more relaxed in his nervous system. Then I'll feel more relaxed.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: Because I can feel the tension in him. And I think that if I had stayed in that relationship and this is part of why I didn't, by the way. I think if I had stayed in that relationship, I probably would have gotten resentful at some point about that pattern. Like, I think I would have gotten resentful, and I think it would have been really hard to describe to him. And I think this is a trap a lot of couples fall into where most. Most women don't have the language or the nuance to say, you're using me to regulate. And it doesn't feel so good. And so instead they say, like, I don't feel like it, or I'm not in the mood, or I don't want to right now. And part of what the man hears is, you're too much or you want sex too much. You're, you know, you're a sexaholic, or you're a fiend, or, you know, which isn't exactly what's going on. So in my case with that man, a couple things I would have preferred is, for example, he gets home and he goes for a run and regulates a little bit that way. He plays with his dog and gets some connection that way. He calls a friend on his way home from the hospital and processes a little bit of what's going on. Right. That he has outside connection, meaningful connection. We're going to talk more about this in depth, but meaningful connection outside of me, such that he was a little bit more regulated when he came to me. And then it would have felt more like, oh, you're actually relaxed in your body and you want me. Like, there's a different quality of, ooh, I feel seen. I feel turned on. You know, a man being present and relaxed in his body is hot. You know, there's a reason that you and I mention all the time that whoever is breathing more deeply in any moment is holding the masculine pole. And you can't breathe deeply when you're all wound up. You can't. You can't do it. You cannot have. Those two things can't coexist. So my experience on the other side of this was, it's not that I don't want sex with you. It's not that I don't like sex with you, but there's a qualitative difference in the type of sex we have sometimes. And it has to do with you regulating your nervous system. And it's. And again, I wasn't, like, never willing to do that. Like, there are times and there are. There are sacred moments when, yes, we do, both of us use each other's bodies to Help us regulate. I need a hug, I need cuddles, I need to bang. I'm just like, that happens to me too. But if it's repeated and sustained and all the time, it's tending to point to a deficit in other things. Most of all, I would argue that's healthy ways to regulate and connection, which falls under the category of healthy ways to regulate. That man that I described, he didn't have any close friends. His best friend lived in another city. He did not prioritize seeing that friend. It was like maybe sort of, kind of if it fits in. But it wasn't like, I go see that friend every quarter or I go see that friend every six months. He had people that he went to the gym with, but he didn't meaningfully, you know, he didn't have emotional safety with any other man in his life. True emotional safety. I can really be myself. I can fully open up. I'm fully here. And I'm wondering if you can walk us through your experience in your life having not had that and what that was like and then basically developing it. Because my understanding of your life is you didn't always have close male friendships. That's something that developed more as you grew in personal growth. But can you kind of COVID those bases of what your life was like and what relating with women was like before and after?

Melanie Curtin: And I think that's something that should also be mentioned here, is that there's immense value in giving value. So when you are able to contribute to some other man on one of those threads, you feel better. And this is backed up by social science research study. After social science research study, you give people a $20 bill and you say, spend this on whatever you want, they spend it on themselves. Their happiness level doesn't really boost, but if you tell them to spend it on someone else, their happiness level boosts and it stays boosted. So there's something about contribution that is also regulating. So it's not just about. I mean, it's a lot about what we're talking about, of when you need help, you have somewhere to go for it, and you know how to ask for it. That's a big deal. That's something that you learn, right? That I think you learned, Jason. The other thing is you get in those threads and you have some man having a hard time with something. Like, I tried to have sex with my girlfriend the other night, couldn't get it up. I feel humiliated. And you're able to respond and say, man, I've been there. I feel you. I have been there. I understand that you have contributed to someone else's world. You have made them feel less alone. And there's something about that that is good for you, that helps you, that helps regulate you. So there's a virtuous cycle in these relationships of I give to you and that helps me, and when I need help, you help me both ways. You're winning.

Jason Lange: I literally hear this all the time in men's groups. I lead that. Not everybody, but there'll be almost every week there's someone who's showing up that clearly has stuff going on in their life that is like, I just wanted to come here tonight and, like, not be focused on my stuff. And I really just want to hear what's going on for all of you. And that in itself is this, like, relief in medicine of, like. Like, we talk about it's kind of like a break from the, the, the never ending rumination that is our mind. And it's like generally easier to help people, support people in their problems than in our own. It's like, right. Clarity is, well, you just do this and it's, why can't I do that in my life? Right? It gives a break and it does get into that generative where I get to help someone and then suddenly I feel a little better. And then it's like I'm going back to my life more nourished and more resourced and I've created a deeper bond with someone that now I know there, there's like this opportunity for back and forth. So I, I see that all the time of the benefit and how good it can feel to just get out of our own stuff sometimes and be like, oh, well, I'd love to help you with that or support you or I can totally listen to you for a while on that. And sometimes that's all it takes. And then we haven't even touched our problem, but we're more resourced, we're more connected, we're more regulated, so then we can better handle our problem.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great way of putting it. We're more resourced, we have more energy, we have more. I mean, I think all of us have had the experience of getting a really good night's sleep and waking up. And our problems just don't seem as big. They're the same problems, but they just don't seem as big because we have more energy, we have more bandwidth. And that's, I think, a lot of what we're talking about. And something that I really feel is a lot of compassion for men in general. Because I do think that our culture isolates men. There's a way that men are very, very isolated. And so it requires effort. It's like a speed bump, kind of like it requires effort on the part of men to go get that emotional development, go develop those, those relationships. Because it's not just a given. And I think that culturally speaking, it's much more culturally safe for women to connect than it is for men. Women are not shamed. Women have. We have a whole bunch of other problems, don't get me wrong, but we don't. We aren't shamed or humiliated for A, having feelings and B, connecting with each other. We are not told at 12, 13, and 14 that we're a pussy or a fag or other denigrating phrases. If we're connecting with each other, that is Just not something that happens. We're still allowed to hug. We're still allowed to be affectionate. It's like, oh, isn't that cute? They're braiding each other's hair. We are not isolated in the same way that boys are. And I just really want to acknowledge how much I see you. I see you, all of you men out there. I see how lonely it is. I see how much you have been trained to be isolated. And I'm working really hard to help that be solved or, you know, to bring men together and to help them love each other. Because it's really, you know, it's critical to both your lives and the lives of us women who relate with you. It's transformative on both ends.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: We don't have any community. We don't have any connection. And. And then suddenly a woman comes along, and she's got a warm body, and she's here and she's present, and for a couple seconds, you know, when I'M having intercourse with her, like I don't have to think about my stuff. Like of course that's going to be like, wow, this is the one thing that doesn't suck, you know, in a lot of ways. So I want to use that. But that long term it's not sustainable. That's, that's the thing. And because we do have guys come who their, their partners get to a place where either sex just isn't happening anymore because it's not pleasurable for them to feel the need of a man coming at them like that in that specific way. Feeling the want of a man is very different. But the need of a man, it's not pleasurable. And it's often, you know, over time it's very easy. It was for me habitually as a man to like not take the time to tune into where is my partner at? I just want to do this thing. And she's a means into the end of that. And that did not go well long term.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I can imagine that. Thank you for also just speaking to the way that we live because I think it's important to highlight it isn't natural the way that we live in the west. And there's a reason that we've as humans lived in tribes physically together most of the time alone time being the rarity rather than the opposite. Because. Because when we live together we are all contributing and when you contribute, you feel better about yourself. So it's not just about having people around, it's also contributing in some way. The elderly folks contribute in this way. The young people do it this way. There's different tasks for the different people. But that sense of togetherness and contribution is foundational to humanity. So it's not a coincidence that one of my dreams is to have a co living community, like a thriving co living community where we do have our own spaces where we live, but we also have communal structures right there. I mean right next door it's not hard to get to. You don't have to figure out parking, you're just all in the same place. And every weekend there's okay, we're planting over here, right. If you want to spend four hours in the garden, we would love to have you. This is what we're doing this week, this is what we're doing next week. We are all contributing to this thing. To me that's my dream because I have witnessed my friends and people doing exactly what you said of getting their own place and then feeling isolated and disconnected and wondering why. Like, well, you're surrounded by concrete. There's no real nature. And it's really hard to see your people. It's really hard.

Jason Lange: Everyone's in a car and everyone.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So I think there's something I have noticed about many of our clients where I just think to myself, God, if I could just gift you a co living community, just a place for you to be around people more, your quality of life would go up right away. There's, there's no reason you shouldn't be happier than you are. There's nothing wrong with you. There's no, you don't, you know. Yeah, we, we are kind of a meds obsessed culture. It's like, I don't think you need meds, you need connection.

Jason Lange: I think you just need community.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And like I said, I think that there's this speed bump effect now where it's like, if you're listening to this and you're lonely, you know, you don't have to be lonely forever. There are lots of actions you can take. It just takes an awareness of, oh, that's the thing that's happening in my life. I'm lonely. I need more connection. I need more, I need more deeper relationships. I need to develop, you know, the emotional awareness and capacity to do that and then do that.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great point. I remember one of our clients who was kind of stuck in this pattern we're describing and he was, you know, overcoming it and growing beyond it through the course of the program. And I remember he was late to one of our calls and he said, yeah, sorry, I was late, we just had a quickie and it was her idea. And I remember that being kind of a turning point of, yeah, this works. Like all of this stuff works. Personal development works. Men's groups work. It's effective and we see the changes. We get to witness it. There's another client I'm thinking of who has a much more connected relationship with his wife. Just a lot more connected. I mean, drastically more connected. And. And I think they're both a lot happier. It's not like paradise all the time, but it is drastically better than it was. I mean, drastically. So it is possible. It does work. It is here for you if you want it. So speaking of that, if you are interested in learning more about us and our coaching, you can go to Evolutionary Men Dearmen. That's Evolutionary Men Dearmen. And you can take our free training. And I think that's about it. Anything else before we wrap?

Jason Lange: Get some support, guys. Everything gets easier. It's not that the problems don't start stop coming, but it's just everything is easier in community. That's just what I'll say.

Melanie Curtin: That's so true.