There's this moment about twenty minutes into my conversation with Melanie Curtin where I stopped mid-sentence and said something that surprised even me. We were talking about how to tell if a woman is interested, and I found myself saying "Look, if you're asking that question, you're already in the wrong headspace." The silence that followed told me we'd hit something important. This whole topic of reading interest reveals something way deeper than just dating anxiety.
We got into the whole confidence trap. You know, a lot of guys come to me saying they want to be more confident with women, and I'm pretty direct about this. I think confidence is bullshit. What confidence really means is "I want to know the outcome so I don't have to feel vulnerable or uncertain." That's not what we need. What we need is the capacity to lead with what we want, put it out there, and see what happens. That vulnerability, that's the real skill. That's what's going to serve you on your first approach and 30 years into your marriage.
We also talked about those "super crush" patterns, where you're obsessed with someone from afar but never actually make a move. I definitely had my share of those. What I realized later is I was stuck in this grade school energy of wanting to know she liked me before I shared that I liked her. And that pretty much never works. The truth is, your clarity is often what triggers her clarity. A woman will drop handkerchiefs, leave openings, but if you don't move, that window doesn't stay open forever. Your job is to notice what you want, put your attention on her, and move your body. Literally just move and figure it out on the way.
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Jason Lange: That's what all the pickup world likes to sell. And that's what, you know, I'm pretty firm with guys we work with. Sometimes when we're first talking about, you know, a lot of guys will say, well, I want to be more confident. I want to be more confident with women. And I've maybe talked about before, like, we don't roll with that. I don't roll with confidence. I think confidence is bullshit because confidence really means I want to know the outcome so I don't have to feel vulnerable or hurt or unknown or uncertain. Right. I want to know that whatever I do, I know what's on the other side. And so I don't train guys in that. We don't train guys in that. We train guys on vulnerability. Like, lead with what you want and put it out there and then see what happens.
Melanie Curtin: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode. Always love to have Jason Lange here with me. Podcast favorite. Thanks for being here.
Jason Lange: Good to be back.
Melanie Curtin: Nice to be in the same. Same physical space. So today we're talking about signs that she likes you. So how do you know if a woman is interested? How do you know if a girl likes you? We're going to use both the term girl and woman, but we mean grown woman. And this is a complex topic, as it turns out, because it's not always clear and sometimes it's hard to tell. Is she just being nice? Is she just being polite? Is she just being friendly? Or is there something more? Does she like me? So I'm curious if you can share a little bit about your own journey, sort of figuring that out.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think, you know, listeners know of my super crush history and the way I would often crush from on a woman from afar, and that included girls as well.
Melanie Curtin: When you were in. I was.
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. Middle school.
Melanie Curtin: High school.
Jason Lange: Middle school. High school.
Melanie Curtin: Can you just, for new listeners, break down, just quickly, what is a super crush?
Jason Lange: So in my mind, super crush is like, someone I was obsessed with, I really liked, I was really interested in. Took a lot of psychological space, but I never in any way expressed that or moved towards that moved towards her or let her know or initiated contact of any kind of way.
Melanie Curtin: So it's possible some of your super crushes literally had no idea that you were crushing on them. Okay.
Jason Lange: Yeah, a good, good chunk of them.
Melanie Curtin: It'd be kind of fun to reach out to some of them from high school and be like, did you know that I was obsessed with you for a year and a half? She'd be like, I didn't even were we in the same class? Totally.
Jason Lange: I was just kidding. Yeah, some of them, for sure. But I know for me back then, there's a kind of a grade school energy that I would often get trapped in of wanting to know she liked me before I shared that I liked her. And even those terms like, like me, like you, for me, they're rooted in, like, a very early part of my nervous system. And that kind of like, you know, always imagine, like the sending the note across the class, like, does Jenny like me? And then you get the note back and you're like, oh, she does. Now I can talk to her. And it's almost never that clear. Right. I mean, occasionally you'll get some slam dunks in terms of, hey, so and so likes you. You know, it's pretty clear. But a lot of times, in terms of where this issue showed up with some of our clients we work with, particularly guys who haven't had a lot of experience dating, they don't know, like, hey, I'm talking to someone. You know, maybe it's a barista, maybe it's someone online, maybe it's a co worker. And how do I actually know she's talking to me? There's interest, I'm attracted, but I don't know if I'm just imagining this or if there's actually some energy here. And that seems to be a place a lot of us nice guys often get stuck of wanting to know she likes us before we kind of put that energy out there. And that pretty much never works well.
Melanie Curtin: And you also have an interesting history because you. You've mentioned several times that in your sort of mid to late 20s or when you started doing more consciousness work, you could look back and say, I think she liked me. I think she was giving me signals. I think that was an entree. Can you say a little bit about those moments? Like, what were those moments for you?
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, I can definitely think of some specific moments that in retrospect, I can now see for me, particularly as a late bloomer. But part. There was actually a block there to me, because there it was. The thing I wanted more than anything else, right. Was to be sexual with a woman, have a girlfriend, have that connection. And as a late bloomer, it terrified me, especially the older I got of like, oh, my God, am I going to have to have that conversation of like, I've never had sex before, I don't know what I'm doing and is it going to be awkward? And that energy caused a lot of fear in me. That I think kind of put up a little bit of a barrier to receiving energy from women when it was coming my way. But in retrospect, I can see simple things, like someone coming over to watch a movie or walking home to class and, like, hanging out that minute or two after. You know, in college in particular, there were lots of openings that I didn't necessarily step through, and I wasn't super conscious of in the time, partly because a lot of the. Simultaneously while that was happening, there would often be someone else I was kind of crushing on or obsessed with that would be taking my energy. And so I wouldn't even be aware of, you know, what was happening with other people in my vicinity, other women in my vicinity. And again, I think it was just kind of a protection mechanism of as long as my energy's there, I don't have to go through that awkwardness. And I just wasn't very in my body, so it was hard to. It was just hard to feel that the energy, so to speak. I was often way more up in my head or way more constricted and anxious that I just wasn't available to really read signals in real time. That got better as I went. But particularly, you know, going into college and whatnot, I just did not have that awareness of, hey, like, when a girl's standing close to you and making eye contact, she's. You know, if you've been chatting a little bit and she's leaning in a little bit, there's. There's some windows there, right? Like, there's some interest there. There's some opening there. And that is. Gives you a lot to work with. Mm.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I think it's. It can be challenging for men because back to that idea of sometimes she's interested and sometimes she's just really friendly. And I can speak a little bit to that as a pretty friendly woman. And not just friendly, but sort of, like, I'm pretty touchy, meaning, like, with my friends, like, I'll touch them on the arm, or I'll touch them on the back, or I'll. Like, when I think something's really funny, I'll often, like, knock the person next to me, like, did you hear that? And I think a lot of people aren't used to that or grew up in homes where that was not normalized. It was interesting. I think there's also a pretty cultural aspect to this. They did a study about. They had sets of friends, like pairs of friends meet for coffee in Puerto Rico and mainland US and they recorded the number of times that they touched each other. And in the U.S. it was like 2 to 3 on average. And in Puerto Rico, it was 60. Wow.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: So just the level of closeness, I think, and normalizing physical touch does depend. And it is different culturally. And when I say culturally, I mean, you know, by nationality or by region as well as family systems. So in certain family systems, it's a lot more normal and there's just a lot more touch. Whereas in other homes, especially, I would say homes where there was some kind of neglect going on, even if you don't necessarily identify as that in this moment, that's not so normal. And so any kind of attention or touch, you know, coming your way might feel like, oh, maybe that was a sign. Maybe that was a signal. And so I have definitely been in multiple circumstances where I can kind of feel that a man is like, is she interested? Like, I can feel him wondering about me. And I many times have not been interested in that. In that circumstance, I can feel that he's sort of like, questioning, like, is the. You know, I was sharing before the episode that I've done a lot of social dance in my life. A lot of blues dancing, a lot of swing dancing, a lot of tango dancing. And those are quite close and proximate. And again, lots of touch. And I've. I'm. You know, we will connect a little bit after the dance. And I've had experiences where I can tell a man is sort of like, is that. Are you. Is that a signal? Like, they're trying to figure it out. And I have, to this day, never found a way of being the one to say, I'm. I'm not interested in you romantically. I'm really enjoying our connection and I'm not interested in you romantically. And I wish there was a way to say that, because I can tell they're a little. A little anxious about it. A little bit, like, ooh, I don't know. Like.
Jason Lange: And so should I be making a move?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, exactly. Like, should I be asking for your number? I'm not really sure what to do now. And so a lot of times I'll just sort of exit the conversation like, oh, thanks. Like, that was great, and go back to my friend. So I think a sign is, is she hanging out? Like, is she hanging out longer than, you know, quote, unquote necessary? I've definitely been to events where I have stopped a man after the event to be like, hey, you said this thing. You know, I have engaged him because I'm interested in him. And then sort of hung around. And I do think that there's. There's still a way that. I don't know if I would say it's gendered exactly, but I think that there's a way that for a lot of us women, we will drop a handkerchief, as we've talked about on the podcast, of giving a hint, right? Dropping a handkerchief. Like, oh, what neighborhood do you live in? Meaning, like, maybe you could give me a lift home or whatever. And we're. And. And so we're sort of presenting ourselves as like, I'm over here, I'm available. And then we're kind of waiting to see. Do you pick up the hint? Do you come towards me? Are you going to pick up the ball? And I've definitely, like, I was talking to a man at some point that I had been interested in years ago, and we'd been in the same class for not. Not high school or college, but just course that we had taken. And he said, yeah, you always sat next to me and you kind of, like, touched my leg sometimes. And, like, were you interested? And I was like, yeah, I was. I was dropping every handkerchief I could. And you never picked any of them up.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: And he felt a little bad about that. But I think that was a good example of there is a way that you, as the masculine, as a man, it's gonna work out better for you if you are willing to move in her direction to say something, to do something, to try something, to be bold in some way and then gauge her response. And I wish I could tell you, A equals B, here are the signs. Go for it. She will say yes, but that's not real. And any pickup material you've read or any video you've seen where it's like, if she twirls her hair, if she tosses her head, if she laughs in a certain way, if she makes this move, and that's bullshit, that's not actually real, Sometimes it does mean she's interested, and sometimes she's just twirling her fucking hair. So I think maybe you can speak a little bit to that. Willingness to go first is really big. And that was one of the reasons I kind of lost interest in that man, was I was like, I've given you all the hints, and I'm pretty, pretty good at giving hints. Like, I'm pretty good at dropping handkerchiefs and holding eye contact and getting close and like, hey, Will, walk me to my car. Like, I can give some hints. And he didn't pick up any of them. And that had Me lose faith in his ability to kind of take me. I was like, ooh, I don't think this man would be good in bed, because I don't think he has that kind of drive. Like, that's part of what I'm wanting. And so it had me actually lose interest. So the boldness is important, both for you to be able to go after what you want and to spark the polarity you want in relationship 100%.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: And that's a big thing that you don't need to say, hey, I like you, or da, da, da. It's my attention is on you right now.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: I'm very present with you. That signals almost everything you need most of the time.
Melanie Curtin: I want to highlight that because I think that there's a lot of stress or pressure around saying the right thing, asking the right question. And the truth is that a lot of attraction is in the body. And so your presence, your physical presence, how comfortable you are in your body, your ability to be in your body is what is going to have me be attracted. So before you've even said anything, I'm already feeling you. I'm already feeling your presence. I'm already feeling a lot. And when we did in person workshops, you know, back in the day for authentic man program and everything, we would do exercises around this of just the silent approach. He just approaches to women and we give him feedback on how he's being perceived before he ever opened his mouth. And regularly, men's minds were blown at how much we could feel in his presence. Just him showing up, being in the room. And that's something that I think, you know, to your point about, just move over there. Just move over there. I've been really flattered because several of our clients have said something like, yeah, I heard your voice in my head of like, just move, just move. And then they did. And I was really proud of that because I love our clients. I love all the men that we work with. And it feels good that I'm like, yeah, having a healthy mentor in your head is a pretty good thing to have because they care about you. And. But I remember this one man saying, yeah, I was at a brewery or like an out big outdoor beer fest type thing, and I saw a woman across the tent and we caught eyes and she smiled a little bit and I went over and. And I said, boom, that's the move. Because that was a handkerchief. You caught eyes. And when he said it, I could feel that he breathed right. He allowed himself to hold eye contact. And that right there, I gotta tell you guys, to me, is attractive. A man who's willing to hold my gaze is attractive because there's a certain level of presence and awareness and capacity required to be able to do that. If you're so nervous or anxious about connecting with other human beings that you can't hold their gaze, there's something going on. So it already indicates a certain level of development.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: He went over, they talked. They ended up dating for, I think, months, if not over a year. And that initial moment was, yes, you know, caught eyes, went over. And it was the same for me. One of the first men I ever slept with was from Chile, and I was at a club on Oahu. And same thing, like, we caught eyes across the room. I thought he was cute. And we held eye gaze, like, for a little while. Not a long while, just a little while. And then I lost sight of him in the crowd. And a few seconds later, he showed up next to me. Like, he had weaved his way through the crowd and came and stood next to me and like you said, put his attention on me. And I was like, oh, pitter patter, like my little heart, you know. And there's something about this, this idea of striking while the iron is hot that I just want to bring into this conversation. Because I have noticed multiple times this has happened where I have been interested in a man. I've dropped some handkerchiefs, he hasn't picked them up. I've dropped a few more. He hasn't picked them up. And then I sort of, I throw up my hands. I'm like, listen, I'm doing my part. I don't see you coming towards me. And now I'm less interested. So even if you were to come towards me within, in a few days or after you've thought about it or whatever the fuck, I'm less interested because that drive is such a turn on, right, you coming towards me, that drive, that following, the energy, you know, that willingness to go places, to be bold, to be directed like that is hot. And I think that's something that a lot of men miss is they think they have to. I think we have a lot of weird body image stuff in our culture for everyone, honestly. And I think it's frankly getting worse. But I can't stress enough how much your consciousness as a man, your level of development is what is attractive about you. So it's not necessarily how much money you make or what car you drive or all of the trappings. Yes, for certain people that's going to matter for sure. There is a population of people. But for conscious women or women that are, you know, emotionally developed, it's you, it's your essence, it's your drive, it's your boldness, it's your willingness to be, to move forward that's hot. And your willingness to be vulnerable. Like you've mentioned several times that that is like your consciousness is what's attractive. So that move that you make towards me is part of what makes you attractive. In other words, I can't give you an issued invitation first because I need that move to feel my attraction.
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's such a key piece there too. I like this metaphor of, you know, we've been talking about handkerchiefs and I said openings is one way to think about it is, is there's like an open window sometimes. And it's super important to know guys, when we say strike while the iron hot, the window does not always stay open forever. You know, a lot of women particularly who have more of a feminine orientation, like their energy is constantly changing. And part of. Right. Part of what makes the feminine attractive for the masculine part of all of us is their energy, their responsiveness, their ability to open and flow and whatnot. And part of what makes us attractive to the masculine, attractive to the feminine is our consciousness, which a big part of that is being able to notice our feminine partner opening or closing. So if the window opens and there's some signals and some openings and you don't notice that and take action on that. That's already feedback for her about you. Right. He's not noticing I'm sending these signals. And if he's not noticing I'm sending these signals and taking action, what else is he. Isn't he going to notice when we're in relationship together? Right. And so it is really important to know that. Yeah. Just because she likes you one minute doesn't actually mean she's going to like you 20 minutes from now if. If you're not following through, so to speak, and taking that. And maybe she doesn't even like you in the end, but you'll never know until you. Till you make the move over there and take that action and really kind of initiate. Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: And I do think that there is something about that. You know, if he's not able to show up here, where else is he not going to be able to show up? And I kind of want to repeat what I said earlier, which is I have definitely, on multiple occasions, felt like, if you can't come towards me now, you're not going to be able to fuck me, you're going to be timid, you're not going to be able to, like, push me up against a wall or be. Be, you know, dominant in some way. And I'm not talking about bdsm, you know, hardcore. I'm just talking about I want to feel taken, I want to feel desired, I want to feel held. And if you're waiting for me all the time, I don't feel that if you're waiting for me all the time, I'm in my masculine. I'm. I'm leading. I'm the one driving things forward. I don't want to be the one driving things forward all the time. I don't mind doing that sometimes, but I want to feel like that capacity is in you and you are able to do that. And in my experience as a. As an American woman who has lived abroad extensively, this. This what we're talking about. Is she interested? How do I tell if she's interested? You know, what do I do about it? I think there's something quite harsh about our culture. I think American culture, possibly North American, possibly Canada as well. I've never lived in Canada, but there's something extra harsh about this culture for men. I really think there's just something about. There's a fear of getting it wrong. There's a fear of being called a creep or a pervert. There's a real visceral terror that a lot of men in our culture hold around being, you know, seen as a pervert or seen as a pig or seen as just wanting sex or seen as that somehow you'll be bad or shamed or denigrated for going after sex or going after dating or like, going after it. Whereas my experience in other cultures, I've lived in Argentina, Costa Rica, France, Spain, uk, many other places around the world, Turks and Caicos Islands, Caribbean. It's. It's less. I have felt more desired there. I have felt more pursued there. I have felt like there's more permission given to men to pursue and to be straightforward about it. And it has been noticeable and frankly, kind of a relief now. There's a cost to that. Right. Many of those cultures, there's sort of a macho culture in some of those places. And it's not like rainbows and unicorns. I don't want to say that. I guess I just want to affirm or validate. If you are a man listening to this and you have that fear you have that I don't want to be. I don't want to make her uncomfortable. Yeah, I don't want to make her uncomfortable. It's my worst nightmare. What if she doesn't want me to come forward? What if I transgress? What if I cause harm by asking her out, for example? And what I want to say about that is I have never felt uncomfortable with a man asking me out. I have felt uncomfortable with a man not taking no for an answer. That is when I have felt uncomfortable. I have never been uncomfortable with a man shooting his shot, like, do your thing. I actually respect that. I admire it. I have gone on multiple dates with men I was pretty sure I wasn't gonna end up with. Because I was like, wow, you were really direct. You asked me out. You said, I would like to take you on a date. And I was like, you know what? Yes, let's do it. I really, really admire you for how you just straight up did that. And, like, yes, I'm willing to follow. I am willing to go on a date. I don't know if it'll last in the future, but I just have so much respect for that. I have so much. I honor men's courage in that. And I just wanted to bring that up because I think can be really helpful to travel for lots of reasons, but that's one of them is just experiencing other places where the cultural vibe is different and there is more permission and so much of attraction. And dating is animalistic, meaning we are animals. We are social animals. We have a really big brain, we have got lots of language. But at the end of the day, when I look back at men where I was giving them signals and they were picking them up, most of them were non verbal, Most of them were non verbal. Right. Like I approached a guy on the dance floor and he noticed that I was approaching him and he responded and we got together and then we had a conversation after the dance or whatever it was. But it was more physical on a physical level. You know, I think you might remember this from back in the day, but something I've noticed about. I don't really like the term escalation because I think it's kind of creepy, but when you're, when you're moving things forward on a date or something like that, My experience is that a lot of men are really uncomfortable in their bodies. They are tense, they're anxious, they're tight. They don't realize that necessarily they know they, they might be aware that they're in their head, like have a sense that they're in their head, but they don't have a sense of how tight they are in their bodies. And the men that I've experienced that are more comfortable in their bodies, that are looser in their bodies, that are more present and engaged in their bodies, they do a lot more what I call bridge moves of like they'll put their hand on the small of my back or they'll, you know, they're, they're kind of testing the water in a physical way and they're seeing like, does she respond? Is she leaning into me? Does she move away? They're, they're feeling me out in a physical way that I notice a lot of men don't do. And I'm curious, you know, in your journey of sort of being a bit more tight and rigid and tense to not being, what did you notice? How did you get there? What did you do? Like, what was that journey like for you?
Jason Lange: All the works, I mean the therapies and getting into body and doing plant medicines and men's groups and I mean just all of it. Just getting more comfortable in my skin and doing somatic work of all kinds. Like it just started, you know, the more relaxed in your body, the easier it's all going to go. And to get relaxed in your body takes some work, right? Takes some work for us guys to learn how to unwind and be comfortable and, you know, to not be afraid. Right. I think that that's like a real thing of like there's a Feeling that we're going to die if we get rejected or if we misread a woman like that, like we did something really wrong. And, you know, having moved through that a couple times and realizing, oh, no, that that doesn't like. It doesn't really happen that way generally, particularly for, you know, if you're listening to a podcast like this, it's probably not going to happen to you because you have a certain type of awareness and sensitivity in you that is going to stop you from being the guy who doesn't listen to. No. Right. Again, what that's about is a man who's cut off from his heart and his consciousness isn't going to be noticing, is she open or closed to me right now? And we'll just keep moving. That's what they don't want. That's when it's scary. That's when it's dangerous. But your ability to notice, is she opening or closing right now? That's what's going to prevent it from being scary or dangerous. Right. Maybe you're on a date and you lean in for a kiss and she's not ready or she's not feeling it and it's clear. And then you back up and you're like, okay, you know, there's a little sting. It hurts a little bit, but you don't have to collapse around it. It's like, I went for it and, yeah, it's not aligned right now. That. That's okay. It's just not a fit. You didn't do anything wrong. There's nothing wrong with your sexuality. There's nothing wrong with your desire. Sometimes it's just not a fit in the moment. Sometimes it's not a fit in general that you're discovering with each other. But. Right. That's not the problem. The problem is if you kept going. The problem is if you kept going.
Melanie Curtin: Yes, I'm going to give a few examples of this because I think it's going to be useful. I went on a date. We had been on. It was an online date type thing, and we'd been messaging for, you know, fucking forever. Because that's sort of how it goes. Finally got together, had a meal. Towards the end of the meal, he asked me something like, I think this is going really well. Like, how's it going for you? Or something. And I said, I'm having a really good time and I'm not going to be going out with you again. Something pretty clear and direct and, you know, explicit of like, this is great. I've enjoyed getting to know you. And I'm not open to another date. And he was pretty surprised. And I went to the bathroom. We. It was walking distance from my apartment, so he walked me home. And when he walked me home, he tried to kiss me. And that was really fucking annoying. Like, I've already explicitly told you with my words and my body language, I'm not open to this. And you still tried. That feels really bad. Another example, this one's kind of rapey. Trigger warning. But I went out with a guy, or, sorry, I met a guy at a bar. And I said, we, like, connected for like an hour. I thought he was really cute. It was really fun. And I said, I would love to take you home. Just so you know, I'm only cool with, like, waist up tonight. Like, I don't really want my pants to come off. I'm like, not open to anything past that, but I would love to make out with you and, like, you know, have you spend the night. How does that sound? He was like, it sounds great. That's awesome. Really great. So we get back to my place, we make out for a while. It's fine. And then I fall asleep. And when I wake up, I wake up to the smell of latex. And he has pulled out a condom and he's getting ready to fuck me. And I'm pissed, but I'm also terrified. So I'm like, oh, my God. Thank God. I live in a house with housemates. Thank God. I, like, I remember the feeling of ice water down my spine. Like, holy shit. I told you what my boundaries were and you don't give a fuck about it. And it was such a weird experience. I don't remember all the details, but I remember saying, I'm not ready. I said the words, I'm not ready, because I felt like that was the safest way when what I really wanted to say was, get out of my house. Get out of my house. And I was so scared if I said, get out of my house, that it would piss him off and that he'd get even more aggressive, et cetera. And so I can't remember how I phrased it, but I was like, I'd really be more comfortable if you left. He was like, no, please don't kick me out. I'll sleep at the foot of the bed. Like, it got really weird. And I was like, no, yeah, now I'm really uncomfortable. This is, like, way past it. But in both of those experiences, I said, here's my boundary. And they didn't respect it. That's Creepy. That's not okay. But the rest of it was totally fine. That I don't mind if men are, you know, clear and direct. And to be honest, I actually prefer that because I would prefer. I'd say one of the scariest moments for me as a woman is saying no to a man. That's a really scary moment. I don't know how you're gonna react. I don't know if you're gonna want to hurt me or punish me or, you know, and if I don't. If I don't know where you're coming from, I don't know, like, are you actually asking me out? Or, like, what. You know, what are we doing? That's also stressful. So I'd actually rather, like. I remember when I was an actor in LA or. Sorry, in New York City, a casting director asked me out once, and it was okay, given the context. He didn't have authority. This wasn't an authority thing. We'd met socially, and he said, I know we've been friends, and I'm interested in asking you out. How would that be? And I said, actually, I would prefer that we stay friends. And I remember him just saying, like, okay, that's no problem. Thanks for letting me know. And then it wasn't a problem, and we just moved on. But that was such a. I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Is he gonna. Is he gonna be okay? Is he gonna be okay? Is he gonna be okay with me? Are we still gonna actually be able to be friends? Is it gonna be horrible? And it wasn't horrible. It was fine. He shot his shot. I said no, and he moved on. And that is the dream. Like, to me, that's like. That's great. You know, that's. That's exactly how it's supposed to be. And I've had similar circumstances of kind of, like, feeling a guy out. Right. I've never actually said, do you like me? I like you. I want to take you out. Like, I want to go out with you. But I've had multiple men. I'm thinking of where I've sort of, like, you know, dropped handkerchiefs and made myself available in, like, pretty explicit ways and kind of, like, gotten the no. Of, like, no eye contact, not responding, not walking me to my door. And then I've. I've stopped.
Jason Lange: Yep.
Melanie Curtin: Because to me, I'm like, that's the. That's the equivalent. That's the no. It doesn't always have to be explicit. It can be implicit. But there's a sense of, like, I did move towards him. I did try, and then I got rejected. Quote, unquote rejected. But I stayed in connection. I was like, okay, we can still spend time together. We have lots of mutual friends. I accept that you don't want to fuck me. I accept that you don't want to fuck me. And it doesn't mean I'm worthless or valueless or a bad person or shameful for wanting you. Like, I'm still me. I'm still. Okay, that stings a little, but it's going to be all right. And I think that's one of those, you know, to your point about the fear, the terror of, what if I try and I'm turned down? That fear can be overwhelming. It can feel like, well, then I might die. And not necessarily conscious, But I do think that personal growth work helps with confidence in general, or not necessarily confidence, but the willingness to be courageous and know that I will survive.
Jason Lange: I can handle these parts.
Melanie Curtin: I can handle this. Like, I'm still gonna be myself. I'm still gonna be loved. And that's really hard to do if you're isolated. If you feel all alone in the world and you feel really isolated, a lot of this stuff is harder. Something I've been really appreciative of in. In our community with the men that we work with, is it feels like just being connected to other men who are also growing. There's something about that that's generative. There's something about that that's helpful in terms of willingness to take risks. Like, I know I've got my men behind me. I know I've got this group that cares about me, so I'm more willing to take risks, which is kind of the whole point of healthy attachment. Healthy attachment is I've got a parent that cares about me and has my back. Therefore, I can go into the world. Yes, I can go and take risks. I can try different things, because if I get knocked down, there's this safe place that I can come back to.
Jason Lange: Yeah, you can explore, and you have that safety net and a little bit of that resiliency. That absolutely happens. We see it. You know, I was just talking to a guy this week who took the initiative and, like, asked someone out for the first time, and it was great. And then she just found out. You know, she saw her ex and was like, I'm not ready, you know, and that hurt. It hurt him. But he had somewhere to land, and that helped. And. And he had people to remind him too. Like, don't forget the celebration in there. Like you asked someone out and went on like your first date. Like that's, that's amazing. Don't forget, you know, you don't want to lose sight of that just because the, the follow up to that didn't happen. And I think that's one of the great things we can get from a group is just the, there's just a real camaraderie. I see when guys do put themselves out there and then they have somewhere to share about it and land on the other side. It's like, oh, I'm okay, my guy's got me. And they believe it's going to happen for me, so maybe I should believe it's going to happen for me too. And that, that, that does work over time and it creates that kind of resiliency in that whether it's our voices or the voices of the men and the kind of group like there's an anchor of, oh yeah, I can do this and all I have to do is move. Sometimes it's that simple. And then, and yeah, just to note, you know, like the other piece of what she said, it's the not honoring the agreements or boundaries or no's or closures that's the scary thing. It's not the initial move at all. But to also note the other thing was that, oh yeah, I've been opening myself and been dropping handkerchiefs to this man and he hasn't responded. So he must not like me. So I'm not going to do it anymore. Just to note, guys, if you're not taking any action, you may like her, but she may still have that experience. So that's why we say you got, you gotta, when the opening is there, you gotta make the movement so that there's that reciprocity and that cycle continues. Because, you know, I'm someone who maybe I did really like them, but I was just terrified. But their experiences. I'm not saying that I really like you, but I'm terrified. I'm just holding it all in and not taking any action. So how do they interpret that? Oh, he doesn't like me, he doesn't like me. And then that window closes. And then later on I'm like, oh my God, I totally missed that.
Melanie Curtin: Should have did it.
Jason Lange: And then maybe I'll try to ask her something. It's too late. It's just the energy has moved. The energy has moved. And that can be a tough thing sometimes to wrestle with as a skies.
Melanie Curtin: And that can be true even on a date. I remember I went on A date with a guy. We, I think we had gone on. We had gone on one first date, this was our second date. And it was like a barbecue with a bunch of my friends. I think I had invited him to one of my friends barbecues and I'd only found about this. I only found out about this after. But he. About midway through the barbecue, I was doing something and he came over, he put his hand on my back. He like, was really present with me. He put his attention on me. I felt wanted, I felt desired. And there was like a moment. We had like kind of a moment and I actually was the one to kiss him first. In that moment I was like. I was like, oh, this feels like right. And later, and to be honest, I had been feeling a little bit like he was holding back. It felt. Felt like he was holding back and he was sort of spending time with other people. And that's cool, there's nothing wrong with that. But I didn't really feel him coming towards me. And later I found out that he had been talking to one of my women friends and she was like, dude, you gotta go over there, you gotta like go get her, you know, Like, I know you're on a date and everything, but like, you gotta make a move. Like you gotta make a move. And it was so funny because I ended up dating that guy for some several months. And I look back on that second date and I think that was a choice point. Like if he hadn't come to get me, I don't know what would have happened. I think I would have felt a little bit like a little rejected, actually. I would have felt a little rejected. Like, oh, I guess I'm not pretty enough or I'm not, you know, he's not interested enough or he doesn't really like me. Because if he did, wouldn't he come.
Jason Lange: Over, spend time with me?
Melanie Curtin: Wouldn't he come move towards me? Not necessarily. Like you're pointing out, sometimes the man is just scared or whatever it is. But it's important to know that sometimes that's the difference between her saying yes or not for like a while, you know what I mean? Like those initial moments matter. And you know, I think one of our recent clients has had tremendous success just moving towards, right? He's gone to meetups, he's met new people, put himself in new environments, taken some risks, and just said, hey, I'm interested in getting to know you more. Can I get your number? Which is new for him. And women have said yes, like it's it. You don't need to be perfect at any of this. I guess it's just what I want to stress is, yes, it's a process getting into your body. It can take a long time to actually fully become embodied. And you don't have to wait for everything to be perfect. You can start doing this now and.
Jason Lange: You'Ll learn so much more the sooner you start taking action. Good, you know, positive results or not, like, you're going to learn more about yourself and build up that muscle of, oh, I'm okay, like, I didn't die. She didn't, you know, scream at me or something. It was just like, it wasn't a fit. There's. There's one last thing I just want to mention because I know this. Particularly for some of the guys that I was talking to that initiated this conversation, the most challenging place to be able to answer the question, you know, is she interested? Is anytime there are, like, roles involved. So I just want to name. It is way harder when it's a barista, a bartender, someone you work with, and that part of their position or job or role is a certain level of friendliness. It can be really hard to suss out, like, when there's interest there and just know that that, that is like the Jedi level, because that's just super hard. Because sometimes they are just doing their jobs, which is about being friendly and warm and inclusive and engaging people. Doesn't mean that they're not interested in you just as human beings, but they might not be romantically interested in you. And anytime there's a power differential with work or something, there's so much sensitivity around that these days that it's really hard to figure that out. And, you know, I think what you named the example of the casting director is a good example of just. You can still find out. Sometimes you just need to go a little farther in terms of framing that. Like, hey, I understand we have this other shared context, and I totally respect that, and I don't want to change that. And I do have a curiosity here. You know, I would be interested in taking you out. Is there any energy there for you on that? And then you'll get a yes or no, you know, like. But sometimes you need to preface it a little bit extra. And it's just going to be really hard in those situations, any of those situations, to kind of figure out, is that friendliness from my server or really any kind of context where you're meeting and one of you is technically working in some capacity and one isn't. That's just the hardest place to discover this stuff.
Melanie Curtin: That's such a good point. I actually remember going out to dinner and my server was really cute and I actually left my number on the check and said, hey, I'm. I think you're cute. If you think I'm cute too, text me. He never did. So he was either taken or not interested, which is fine. But I think it can be helpful to kind of say, here's my number.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: If they're interested, they'll contact you. I think that's. I've had a few men do that. I thought that was nice of like, I recognize that you might not want to give me your number. So here's my number. I'm interested in you. If you're interested in me, text me. And that, you know, I think is, is specific to circumstances where you're not necessarily going to see them all the time. Right. Like I went to dinner in West Hollywood. I wasn't going to be going back there or anything, but it was, you know, a way of saying I'm into you. If you're into me too, you know, get in touch and it allows them to make the choice totally.
Jason Lange: And, and then there's also just feeling into, you know, what's going to be most respectful of whatever container we currently have. You know, I am thinking of two of our clients, one of whom, you know, was taking tennis lessons from someone and was interested but was also like getting tennis lessons and that was going to continue for a little while. And another who was taking dance lessons from someone and like, was definitely feeling some energy and some connection, but also had like paid for a package of, you know, I don't know, a 10 week course or something like that. And I remember, I think for that the latter guy, he actually decided to wait. He decided to wait until that. That, you know, professional relationship had kind of come to a natural conclusion and then he presenced it, which I think was a skillful move in some ways.
Jason Lange: Get in your body, look for the openings and move. That'd be all. I'd say take. Take that vulnerable risk.
Melanie Curtin: Yes. Be willing to take risks and. And get support because it will help you in taking risks. So if you are interested in our work, we mentioned coaching on this episode a few times. You can go to Evolutionary Men training and take our free training, which goes a little bit deeper than the podcast if you're interested in that. Otherwise, I think that's a wrap.
Jason Lange: I think that's a wrap.
