219: How do you handle it if one partner’s up and the other is down? | Dear Men

Melanie Curtin: That, that makes me want to back away instead of closer. And so that, that sense of like, oh, I'm your only support, really, I'm the only one you're talking to about this. You're. I'm it. I feel scared, I feel anxious, I feel a little overwhelmed. That doesn't feel sustainable or healthy. And it ends up that I, I'm backing away at a moment when he wants me to be coming closer. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode. Thank you for being here. Jason, my co star and co facilitator extraordinaire. Always happy to have you on. We are talking about a dynamic that happens in most relationships, especially if you're together for any period of time. Over time, because life happens, which is what do you do when you're up and your partner is down? And today we're going to focus specifically on the areas of money and career. So job and money, meaning when one of you is doing really well financially and the other isn't, or vice versa. And same thing with career. And sometimes career and money are linked. Often they are, sometimes they're not, but just that sense of things are moving and happening. I have momentum in my life in this area and my partner doesn't. How do you manage that? So we're going to start with the dynamic of when. And this is a sort of. We're going to do this as a heteronormative conversation, but this can happen with any, any sex of person and any kind of relationship. We're just doing that for the purpose of this conversation. And so we're going to start out with what do you do when you, as a man in a relationship with, with a woman, what do you do when you're feeling down and she's up? So, and when I say feeling down, what we're talking about right now is obviously usually tied to emotions, Jason, which you can probably cover. But what do you do when you're not making the kind of money you want to be making? And often that's tied to your, to your career. Right. You're trying something, it's not working, you're not making money, you're frustrated, you're kind of down and your partner is doing well? What, what happens? You've had this experience personally, you've witnessed other men. What are some of the things that happen when you're in that dynamic?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it's an incredibly or can be a very challenging place for men to be and goes pretty deep in my experience and in myself and what I've witnessed in Other men fairly quickly to core components around self worth. Like just really kind of digs in to some of our most sensitive areas as men when that's not all working or we're down in our partners crushing it and killing it. And it can have a massive impact on attraction and polarity in the relationship. Right. The feeling of, you know, sometimes literally being dependent on a partner, depending on the context of how you're living or what kind of life you're creating, all the way down to just the pain of feeling stuck and maybe being in some sense a limitation on a relationship. Right. So I know that was one that was really hard for me was wow, met an amazing partner. It is, we do get along, it is going well and we have this incredible vision. And then, oh, I feel like the dead weight. Like, like I. The vision is possible if I could just kind of get my stuff together. And so it's a, you know, this kind of really gets to the heart of so much of the nuance when it comes to hetero or non hetero. But polarity work in that our partner is often our sense of greatest support and well being. But when they're having to hold this for us, it actually becomes another layer of that on top they're crushing it in the career and now they're also holding us emotionally can be so deep and so brutal and so painful. So for me, you know, personally, I would just withdraw. It's just like a total withdrawal and disappearance. Other guys that'll look differently, other guys that might look more like pouting, other guys that actually might look more competitive that the more vulnerable they feel, the more big they actually get. Like I've definitely seen that before. But it becomes a, a real source of stress and challenge, I think on the relationship. And then often in some sense starts to kind of sabotage the stuff that would juice the relationship. So it's almost like you start kind of getting hit from two fronts. There's the actual thing happening and then there's the way that impacts my sense of worth and then how I'm showing up in the relationship, which almost feeds into itself in my experience.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I can speak to this dynamic from two sides. One, I've been in relationships where I was making significantly less money than my partner. And in that case it was sort of limiting on a practical front. Like, where are we going to dinner? Okay, well, if we're going to a nicer place, I'm stressed out because I can't pay for my half and I feel anxious about saying that. Like he would Suggest a place. And I would contract in my stomach and kind of like tense up because I need, I kind of needed to know beforehand, like, are you gonna pay for us? Because I'm okay with that. I mean, that's very generous. And I kind of need to know beforehand because I wouldn't choose that place if we. If it were up to me, just because of where I am financially. Same thing with traveling, right? Going on a trip, he would want to go on a trip. And again, I would sort of be like, that sounds awesome. I can't really contribute. Like, that's not a choice I would make for myself right now because of where I am financially. And those were dating relationships. Those were not sort of long term cohabitating marriage or just that kind of committed relationship where you're doing life together. But I do think that that is similar where it's like, there's a practical limitation sometimes on what we can do as a couple because of where one of us is financially. And that's just part of a dance that you have to navigate. And I wasn't brave enough at the time to have an open conversation with him about money. I just kind of like, hoped it would work out kind of. And he just ended up paying for a lot of things. So I would pay for coffees for us and he would pay for meals. And I think there was an unspoken agreement that he knew he made a lot more than me. And I was kind of in transition. My housing was going away. It was a whole thing. And so I felt taken care of by him because he was able to provide. And that was effortless because of his job. And I never saw the flip of that. Right. I wasn't with that man long enough to see what happens in the opposite dynamic. And I think that, to your point, my experience of men, and I've been talking to some of my women friends about this dynamic and just other people about this dynamic in preparation for this episode. And one of the things that several women said was it doesn't quite feel the same for women in terms of self worth. Although I would say that when I have been unemployed, I have felt kind of worthless, like nobody wants me. I, you know, I'm trying and nothing's working. And the frustration of that is pretty intense. But I do think that because of, you know, the patriarchy and the messages that were given, I think that there can be a way that it hits men harder. Right. If I'm not providing financially, if I'm not giving my gifts in the world, but especially providing Financially, for my family. Family. And I'm not saying that you have to have children, but sort of when you're in that unit with someone, especially if you're cohabiting, it's kind of like, this is my family. Like, this is my little zone. It's really hard when you're not providing. It can feel like, well, what is the point of me? What am I worth? What is. What is my value? Excuse me if I'm not providing. And that, you know, to your point about self esteem, that feeling can be unbearable in your nervous system. And so it's. It. I have experienced that. You know, on the flip side, right, I've been the person who hasn't been earning as much, let's say. And then on the flip side, I've had this. This feeling of I need to hide what I'm making or somehow hide my success so as to not trigger him because he's not in the same place. And I don't necessarily think that's healthy. And it's one of the things I was curious to discuss with you today about this dynamic, because I do think there's a sense of helplessness that I have felt as a partner of, like, I don't really know how to support you. I don't really know how to support you. I don't know if the best thing to do is just leave you alone and not talk about it, if you want to process it with me. But my choice has often been to. To celebrate my successes elsewhere. Right. With my. With my other friends. Because I don't want to trigger this person. So can you speak a little bit to how you've navigated that personally and what you've seen in partnerships? That's work.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, for me personally, there were a few times I definitely maybe got triggered a little bit by that, but in general, it was very celebratory of my partner just because that's, you know, the nature of where we're at. And I'm like, yeah, I want that for you. Cause I want that from me and I want that for us. So, like, I do want to hear that. I do want to hear those victories. Um, I think where. If I feel into where that felt the best and where that felt the worst did actually have less to do with my partner, though. And it had to do not so much with where I was on fixing the problem, but how clear I was on what's the path forward I've chosen. That makes sense. So when there was, like, I didn't know what the plan was or how to get out of it. Really unsettling to feel that energy as my plan became clearer and I like settled into that and I'm like, well, I'm not there right now, but I'm getting there. Right. Way easier to celebrate that. So, you know, I think it kind of depends where you're at on the journey. And you know, I think a big piece too that I have a slightly different experience of is how much agency we have as men in that I'm mostly an entrepreneur in terms of, you know, I kind of work for myself. So the gift and the curse of that is most of my doing well in the world is self generated, which has an awesome side to it and has challenging sides to it. But there's also, you know, the component for people that aren't. And guys I've known that aren't entrepreneurs who can't necessarily just go make money tomorrow in the sense of like, well, if I just work a little harder on this or put out more content or da da da, but are in some sense like have to get someone else to hire them, there can be a deep feeling of disempowerment right around. I've put out all these resumes, I've done all the things, doing all the things, and I'm not even getting any callbacks or something, you know, in a mere way. It's. It can be very close to that sensitive spot guys often know of, like online dating and putting out so much energy and not really getting anything back and feeling totally. I have no control over any of this. Like, what's the point? Um, so that can be a super tender spot for guys too when, when they might have a great resume, they may have done a great interview and still. Right. They just go with someone else. It can be really hard to not personalize that as men.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it can be. It can feel devastating, especially if it's happening repeatedly. Right. I remember actually a good friend of mine who was job hunting for like nine months. It was a long time and they weren't, they weren't having success. And interestingly, they actually sort of, I don't know how to describe it, but had a sort of spiritual come to Jesus moment where they said they kind of were like, all right, I don't know how to do this, so I'm giving this over to a higher power. Please help me. I need help. I need help. So. And it was, it was a spiritual thing. I think they might have contacted a few old colleagues or something as well. But within a month of Doing that they got a job. And. And so I think that there's just. There's. There's something in the conversation around helplessness and hopelessness and jobs and money and everything where, you know, if you do have spiritual practices, it is an important time, I think, to lean on those. And if I look at my own periods of unemployment and then reconnecting to my spirituality, that was when more flow happened because I. I was looping. I was kind of in a rumination loop, and I wasn't really open to possibility because I was just trying to survive. Right. That. That survival thing. And when I kind of was like, okay, please help me. I need help. If I could have figured this out, I would have by now. That was when things tended to flow again. And I want to just ask about this because it feels important. In terms of polarity, There's a warning that I've heard. Be mindful and cautious about whining to your woman. You can do it sometimes for a while, but if it's chronic and all the time, then it's going to affect the polarity. And, you know, you mentioned a few of the behaviors. Right. Some men might act out, someone might withdraw and get really quiet, and someone might sulk, just be really grumpy and hard to be around. And I'm curious, you know, what is your version of that? And how did you and Violet navigate that? I mean, did you have explicit conversations about it? What, like, how did that work in your relationship when it. When that was happening?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I tend to withdraw under stress in most conditions. That's just my disposition and nervous system. So that's, you know, at the peak of all this for us. Definitely what was happening. I was kind of just withdrawing into myself and disappearing and not having the conversations even about what was going on or what was hard. So I wasn't so much a complainer or even asking for help. Too much kind of thing. It was just kind of not going there. And it took her really presencing it through her energy and her body in a conversation to kind of draw me out and then kind of lean into the discomfort around that. And that then kind of opened to the channel where, you know, in our dynamic. But I think in a lot of dynamics, there's like a. You got to have at least a certain amount of information for both parties to feel somewhat relaxed. Right. If I don't even know what you're working on, it can be a little more paralyzing for both partners and more fear inducing. So that. That tended to be how it kind of worked for us in that, you know, I would say guys maybe fall on two poles. One not sharing enough and the other sharing too much. And there's. There's like a sweet spot in the middle that, you know, I think I've maybe spoken on here before. But one super concrete example we had wasn't like, the height of this. It was maybe, you know, aftershocks a year or two later where I was doing better and, you know, things were moving, but it was like a tight time again, and the withdrawal was kind of happening. And Violet kind of sat, you know, noticed that and spoke to it at once. And having done more work, I was able to kind of slow down and connect and just very clearly kind of turned to her and kind of took a breath, and it's just like, yeah, I just feel like I'm losing right now. In everything I'm doing. I want to be winning, and I just feel like I'm losing. And that really hurts. That was all the information she needed, actually. She didn't need more than that. Like, that completely relaxed her, her whole nervous system and body to just feel that that's what I was feeling and that's what I was working through. I was particularly resourced at that time in the sense I was moving things. I was very connected to my groups and stuff, so things were happening in the background. I just hadn't even thought to share that with her as a kind of withdrawn type. But that was kind of an example of giving her a cut in my world without asking her to, like, fix it in some sense.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I appreciate that because I like what you said about a lot of people tend to fall into one of those two poles, not sharing enough or sharing too much. And since we're talking about men and women, my experience is the men who don't share very much and withdraw, I can feel their withdrawal. And if I don't know what it's about, I think it's about me. So if I don't know what's going on, I think I'm like, oh, fuck, I said that thing yesterday. He probably was really offended by that, but didn't want to tell me. Or maybe we haven't been connecting in a certain way that he likes. And I'm trying to figure out what that way is. And it just takes a lot of energy and attention for me to be trying to figure it out. And I think that the person who has withdrawn isn't even noticing my distress because they're just with their own pain. That's the truth. They're so preoccupied by their own pain, they haven't even registered that I'm stressed out. And so sometimes I've asked and it's almost never been about me. Sometimes it has, but it's very rare. It's usually like exactly what you said. And one thing I really love about what you said is you just cut right to the heart of wasn't about the details or well, this person hasn't gotten back to me and da da da da da da da da da da. It wasn't a bunch of story, it was the heart of the feeling. And I also want to credit Violet because I think that a partner that hears something like that and doesn't try to fix it, doesn't care take is gold. Because I think that that's a dynamic that, you know, we've spoken to a bit in terms of reverse polarity or situations where, you know, let's say you're a woman in a relationship with a man and he comes to you with that and you're like, oh, what about this? Or what about that? Have you contacted this person? And there's nothing wrong with that. Exactly, if it's invited. But if it's not invited, it can be really annoying for the man. And I also think that there's a way that it can feel really disempowering because I think the intention is to help. But sometimes the experience of receiving that is I'm a grown ass man, I can figure out my life. I don't need you to figure out my life for me. And I've had that same experience with men giving me advice of I'm a pretty capable woman. I don't need you to figure out my life. I just need to be with me. I just need you to be with me. I just need you to be with me and hear me and value me. That's it. I just need you to love me. I don't need you to fix fix things. If I ask you, hey, what do you think about this? Here's what I'm thinking. If I'm more resource place and I'm looking for advice, that's different. But especially when someone's in an emotional place about something like money or job, I find that it fucks with the polarity. If I offer my executive functioning in that moment, it's like that's not what's needed in that moment. So I would caution any couple and invalidate any anyone listening who's like, yeah, I've been in that circumstance and it was really Fucking annoying. It's because it was. It's not just you, you know, being difficult. And I'm curious if you ever had to navigate that in your relationships or seen. Witnessed other men navigating that.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think, you know, one way to kind of, particularly in polarity lens feel into that is like, in those moments, I'm totally open for feedback, but not direction. So if it, like. And so there's a. Like, it's a subtle difference, but one first layer of feedback is just like, you know, I don't feel very connected to you. And that hurts. Right. That's the kind of thing Violet would bring to me. Like, I just. I can't feel you. I don't know where you are. I'm feeling really sad. Which is kind of more about her experience. Right. Which is a little easier to receive and often like, well, fuck, I don't want you to feel that way. You know, I've been off in my own shit, whatever, or feedback in the sense of I'm kind of consciously evoking or asking you for, hey, here's. I'm thinking about doing this or I'm thinking about doing this. You know, how do they feel? Or what do you think? You know, that's a little different than the more directive thing. And this doesn't just go in this type of relationship. This happens in men's groups. This happens everywhere. Right. Coaching without permission is a big thing of feeling really down. I'm really long, Cash. Well, maybe you should just X or why don't you Y. Because I know you could do this or you could do this. And that's when it's like, men will kind of not feel so good. I have not felt so good when that energy comes back, because it's. Oftentimes it's like, well, yeah, I've thought of all those things. Like, the ideas isn't the problem. It's the implementation or the choice or the knowing or the confidence right now, which is different. So particularly if you're a feminine partner listening to this, but really, anyone, like, waiting for an ask or at least asking for permission. So if a partner hasn't asked, like, hey, are you open to me offering some suggestions? Very different energy and then kind of just giving feedback more, you know, in your experience of your body about the. The feeling of connection can be a little bit different because, you know, even when I'm suffering and job woes or whatever, you know, I want my connection with my partner to be strong ultimately. And sometimes that. That's like a good kind of wake up call around that.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Because there's two feedback loops you're talking about. One is you're kind of stomping around the house. She can feel that something's not right. She doesn't know exactly what, and it doesn't feel great. And she says, I'm feeling disconnected. I miss you, and I'm not sure exactly what to do, but I miss you. And I'm not sure that's. That's feedback. To let you know, oh, hey, I'm over here and I'm sensing this thing, which is feedback, which initializes the conversation. Yep. Feedback can also be, you know, you share a little bit about what's going on for you. And she says, I felt you the most when you talked about this. Or I felt my heart open when you talked about this. That's feedback. When we're talking about feedback, that's feedback versus direction, which is, have you thought about this? What do you think about this? That's not feedback in the same way. And generally not as connective. Yeah. Especially when someone's in an emotional place about something, just reflecting and witnessing and being with them is the most important thing. And it is the number one skill that I wish was taught in school about relating, because I think our relationships would be a lot smoother and better if that were actually internalized. Of. Many of us don't need. Many of us don't need direction. We just need to be witnessed and then we can figure it out. Or we can ask for help when we feel more resourced. It's actually ironic because I feel like when we do feel more resourced, we're more likely to, for example, reach out to old colleagues and say, hey, this is what I'm thinking. Or the energy and resources of our own higher executive functioning, our own brains are only available to us when we feel better. When we feel terrible and we're ruminating, that's when it's harder for us to access good ideas and new ideas and possibility because we're just focusing on survival or what's wrong. So that dynamic, I think what I would love to hear from you is what do you feel like did help you out of that place? Because I, you know, I'm sure your relationship was a resource, but it wasn't the only resource. What. What else?

Jason Lange: Totally. And so two immediate spots come up. One, in terms of what has been the most useful for my. My partner, my wife Violet, in those times is energy. So in the sense that, like, actually often when I'm really down, you know, and Maybe I give her a bit of information like that. Yeah, I just feel like I'm losing data. I don't need the problem solving in that moment. And oftentimes it's literally just energy that soothes me. Right. Touch, nurturing, nourishment, all those different kind of things are a big deal. Like literally, I might be braced. You know, this is something we've been getting increasingly good at. And she can just watch a walk up to me and like brush my body. Massive energy change in my state. Just feeling that of just, you know, it's just like I can feel your tense right now, baby, and I love you and just like touching. And then things start to unwind and then from that unwound place, right. Things start to move and healing and action and all that can kind of start to come back online. But so there is like a. You know, for some guys, yes. That. That'll be sexually. That could be food. That could be just touch and contact. It doesn't actually always have to involve words. Right. I think that's an important piece. And sometimes it's most impactful when it doesn't involve words coming from a partner in terms of those things really do help and really do nourish me. And yeah, sometimes, you know, if it is words like, yeah, I believe in you, baby, just like, I know you'll figure it out. It's like, that's what I want. Not the plan, not the suggestions per se. And then so matched with that, you know, certainly in my world is then having resources outside of the relationship. And, you know, any longtime listeners will know I tend to orient that around men's group and having deep male connection and community in. That's the place where can really bring all of this and where it was useful for me to bring all this of like, fuck, I don't know what to do. I feel lost. I have no plan. I feel collapsed in. So that's. I think the important distinction here is that is all stuff I have the capability of doing with my partner, like collapsing with Violet and just. And we've gone there and we can go there. And it's a capacity we have in our relationship for me to go there with her. And there are times it's appropriate. What I'm about to speak to is that there are also times where for the sake of the health of the relationship, which includes the polarity, I don't want to put that all at her feet. That's where men's group can really be a powerful resource or, you know, whatever groups you have supporting you of a place I can go collapse and be held. So some of that energy can move some of the uncertainty, some of the lack of clarity and where then I can kind of not hold anything together. And it's usually through that by dropping into all the feelings. Okay. Then a little space, a little energy comes back where then some executive funking functioning can return and I can start to shape and craft a plan with guys who care. Right. And you know, in, in a way there is a real potency for I think the masculine in that because the, the masculine gets that of like I know exactly what it's like to not be able to provide for my family or to be unemployed for six months and how just brutal that is. And that's the medicine. Sometimes it's just like I know exactly what's that. That's like in that that sucks man. Like that's just. Yeah, I've been there. That's the worst. And just being even met in that energy can be such a game changer. Um, but that's, that's a process I've seen really, really, really support guys. Um, and as I like to say, that process, at least for me and what I increasingly see for guys is what allows to come back and share the right amount of information. They're not too much, they're not too little.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I was just thinking about that sweet spot that you were talking about. I definitely have noticed that I do want to be let in, you know, I do want to be let into my partner's world and I don't want to be responsible for his well being.

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Melanie Curtin: And I think when partners fall into a codependent dance, it's often because they lack resources outside the relationship. Which is exactly what you spoke to of. It's critical for my man to have his men. It's critical. It's not nice to have. It's, it's, it's vital. And part of the reason for that is that this, this kind of dynamic does affect polarity, especially if it's ongoing. Right. It's like, yeah, if my man is kind of constantly really down and, and, and either sulking or whining or like not, not in a good place for a really long time. And, and basically stuck is the word where I'm going with this. Stuck. I'm going to lose attraction for him. I do, I lose attraction and I feel bad about it. I feel like I shouldn't like, oh, he needs me now more than ever, et cetera. So I'm not saying it's fair, but I'm saying it's. It happens. And part of what helps men get unstuck is community and being around other men. And that is so lacking in our modern culture. You have to seek it out in a way that before a lot of times you didn't, you know, in villages and tribes, there was a lot of just, there was a lot of togetherness. You were just with other people a lot more of the time. And we used to have, you know, let's say in this country, we used to have things like bowling leagues. There were places that we had regularly that we were meeting up with other people in a similar circumstance. And so there was more of a chance of that happening with a lot of us, you know, working from home or in jobs where we're not necessarily that close to colleagues physically or emotionally. There's a lot less of that. And so you have to be more mindful and attentive and have your attention on this, which is why we talk about men's groups all the time on this podcast. Because as a responsible, healthy adult man, you got to find that, you got to get that, you got to. It's got to be part of the structures of your life if you want a healthy relationship. Because the fact is, you know, this dynamic that we're talking about, it will happen if you're in a long term partnership. It's almost like A equals B. There's no one I know that has been up all the time since I've known. People go through cycles. It's part of what happens in life. And sometimes it's job and money. You know, that's what we're talking about here. Sometimes it's a parent is sick, you know, it doesn't job or money. It can be, I'm down because health, health things are going to happen. And so a healthy ecology, a healthy ecology of a relationship isn't just you and me. And I think that's where our society falls down drastically in terms of our model of romantic relationship. It feels very isolated, right? You watch a rom com or something and it's like they meet and they're. And that's it. And it's just the two of them. There's not health. It's like a garden with just two flowers. Flowers are going to die. They need the bees and they need the trees and they need the vines. You know, they need the whole garden, the whole forest. They can't survive alone on their own. So, yeah, so in terms of that, that dynamic and how to get out of it or if you feel, you feel stuck in it. I think that's an important part is get a men's group. Get some kind of resource with community, real community where you can talk about what's actually going on. Not just superficial stuff. You know, you have to be able to, to let your hair down. You have to be able to fall apart. You have to be able to say, yeah, I feel like I'm worthless. That's what's coming up for me. I just feel worthless again. I feel like I can't get anything right. I feel like I'm trying everything and I'm spinning my wheels and I'm exhausted. You have to have somewhere to share that and have it be held. That isn't just your partner, someone else too that's trusted and resourceful and able to provide something. And it can't be your weird ass toxic family of origin if that's going on for you. Right. It's got to be something safe and trustable. Men, that's really important. And yeah, so just that'll build resilience.

Jason Lange: Into your, your relationship. I mean a relationship in the way I think we see it is, is only as robust as the system it's embedded in, right. If it's the sole component, it's. There's just a lot that can go wrong. Now I'm not saying it can't ever work, but it puts a lot of stress on it. A lot can go wrong and, and the more both parties are embedded in healthy systems beyond the relationship therapy, coaching, men's groups, activities, passions, all that kind of stuff, the healthier and the more robust and resilient that system is going to be and you just need it, right? Like otherwise relationships become codependent or over processing. Right? Where it's just then we're processing every single thing with each other. Which again, you know, it can be great when your partner is your therapist or your main support, but rarely then are you fucking each other. Like just. That's the truth. I've seen over and over and over again when relationships get too processing oriented. So guys, one way you can think about this is it's just you're just kind of like offloading some of the processing from that component so there's some energy and space for your relationship to have other things happening in it.

Melanie Curtin: Like sex. Yeah, yeah. What I was speaking to of yeah. Attraction, polarity. You know, one thing I've noticed has helped me in terms of this is when the man explicitly says like here's what's going on. I Feel down about this and that, you know, kind of telling me what's going on and then saying, and I'm going to be okay. I'm going to be okay. Like, I am figuring it out. I am finding the resources I need. I am taking care of myself. And that's what I've noticed is that that awareness of, I am taking care of myself, I am putting attention on that. I think when men are really unconscious and sort of fused with this dynamic, they aren't really taking care of themselves, and they don't really have an awareness of what that is. And that feels very out of control to me. So then I'm like, okay, I don't really know that you even have a plan. And, you know, and having a plan doesn't necessarily mean I know exactly what I'm going to do next. But my plan is to go to men's group this week. My plan is to exercise three times. My plan is to see my therapist again that I saw last year because that was helpful. My plan is to get some resources in here and to get some help. That's a plan. It doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're going to do for your job next, but you know how to take care of yourself. And you are doing. And I've witnessed many men who. I'm like, I don't trust you to take care of yourself. I'm not seeing you taking care of yourself. And that's the scariest part. That feels out of control to me, and that feels like that's not attractive. I don't want to. I don't want to. That guy versus the guy who's like, you know, I'm feeling down. Um, but here's what I. Here's something I did. Like, I went, like, I went for a long run today, or I, you know, like, it's like, oh, cool, there's a consciousness online There. There's someone home. There's. He. He has his awareness on this. He is. He has his attention on taking care of himself. There's something very soothing to me about that. I feel soothed. I'm like, okay, I can kind of like, take. Take a load off. And I think that's common for a lot of women. I think it's extra true for me because of the way I was raised. I think my mom did make me responsible for her emotions. So she was down. She expected me to. To be. To drop everything and take care of her in a way. She wouldn't have phrased it like that, but I was Trained to do that. And so for me, it's soothing. And I think a lot of people, when it's like, down. I'm also an adult.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally down.

Melanie Curtin: And I'm also an adult. So there's a consciousness that's here and present and aware and tracking and you don't have to do it all. You don't have to take care of me.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I think that dynamic is so important. And part of what is, I often talk about, helps distinguish the mother from the lover. Like when. When that consciousness not online, you know, a feminine partner is going to have to shift more into love. Mother. Right. Like, okay, I gotta hold you. I gotta, like, make you okay. Versus, like, well, a lover's like, baby, you're really struggling right now. And, oh, man, I get that. And here's something I want to do for you. Right. But there's almost a freedom to do that because I can give. Because I know he's being held by something more than just me. And my experience is like, I've, you know, I've given that and received that in a way of. When you feel that extra layer of capacity, particularly holding a man, I think it. It shifts something of like, okay, well, he's. He's on it, you know, and now I want to support him in being on it rather than figuring it out for him. Like, there's a. That's. There's a massive difference in that. Massive, massive difference in that. That I think is maybe a key to all this.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And that's the thing, is that when we're stressed, we do tend to drop things, forget things, do things poorly. So if you're cohabitating and you're in a love relationship and you're householding together, there's also ways sometimes when your partner is down that you actually are picking up more slack. And I think there's something really meaningful about the partner who's down noticing that or speaking to it or saying, I know I haven't been on top of cleanliness or whatever it is for me, you know, that feels so good. Even if the cleanliness isn't happening. Just the awareness of, hey, I'm aware that this is a thing I've dropped and I'm sorry, I know that you doing more around the house lately, because I've been down and I appreciate that or whatever, but just like, oh, hey, there's someone home again. It's. Male consciousness is sexy. Consciousness in general is sexy. But me as a woman in a relationship with a man, even if he's not Doing well, if he's aware of that and we're talking about it, or he's sharing or he's aware, awareness feels like the difference between it feeling bad and it feeling tolerable. And like you said, yeah, I want to support you in you figuring it out. I'm not going to figure out for you. You don't need me to figure it out for you. But I'm on board. I want to soothe you and serve you. And I also really appreciate that acknowledgement of. Yeah, when I'm down, it's the same way. Right. I don't respond. You know, I'm not as responsive, I'm not as, you know, just. I'm not bringing that much energy to things. And I'm aware that that affects my relationships, my friendships, my love relationship, all of. All of that. So, yeah, outside resources and then just like bringing your own awareness of things when you can. And before we wrap, I do want to touch a little bit on the opposite dynamic, which is what has your experience been when you've been up and your partner's been down?

Jason Lange: Yeah, this is definitely something I've experienced in some different ways. And you know, there's just a lot of mirroring in this. To some extent, there's some things different, but there's also a lot the same that's oftentimes not immediately coming in and just saying, well, how about try this or how about try this or how about try this. But as we've talked about before, first meeting my partner in her emotional state and just attuning and resonating and reflecting that, like, wow, here's, you know, I get where you're at and that's really hard. And you know, I believe in you. Sometimes it's just stuff like that can go a long way. Some two other pieces. So there's kind of just meeting in the energy and not immediately trying to fix with the partner can be a big one number two, if you're lucky. And you know, I have a great example of this from last night is when the resources are mirrored on the other side. There might not actually be anything to do. And so what I mean by that is like I just spent five days out doing some men's work with some guys I know. And so my wife was at home with our daughter this whole five days, which huge burden on her to basically be with with our daughter that whole time. It just, you know, it's a lot of energy and it's a lot of stress. And by the end, you know, she was getting pretty Fried. And so we had an experience yesterday that she's given me permission to talk about where, you know, she's having a really hard morning. I was coming home in the afternoon and like, there was a moment in the morning where, you know, the thought crossed her mind like, oh my God, I'm never having sex with Jason again. I'm so resentful. I can't believe this. Like, so mad, right? And then, you know, came home, like was expressed that energy. I knew that was kind of there. She was texting where hard time was and she was like, I was just, you know. Yeah, I totally get that. I totally understand. And then what ended up happening is I came home and she had set plans to go be with some women, was it. And so my support was just fully supporting her and going to do what I had just done for five days. And by the time she came home from that, she all gone. All gone. We connected, we made love. She was in a great space. That's what she needed. She didn't even need me in a sense. She needed to go be with her women and her tribe and her nourishment and her energy. So that was a great thing. And you know, that's the thing I particularly looked for in a partner. So, you know, in some sense that didn't happen on accident. That was something I was mindful of when I was looking for my future partner. And that was part of what attracted me to Violet was feeling that those resources were online. Cause it can be kind of hard to bring those online later if someone had. Doesn't have any touch points of those. So that's know one thing to be aware of. And then the third one, which is maybe a little bit edgier for some of us, but it's something I'm increasingly noticing. And you know, myself and guys I work with is. Is kind of actually taking the initiative to just sometimes set it up for our partner of like, yeah, you know what? I can feel your stressed. I booked you a thing at the spa. Everything's handled. I'll see you at nine. Like, just things I know that nourish her or resource her is actually taking a little bit more active role again. It's not trying to fix anything. It's just I know this supports you and so I'm handling all the logistics. So you can just go do that. And that can be a very generous thing. When a partner's down again, it's just like small actions or small, small moments when, you know, maybe they're in a, in a Hard spot. You know, another version of this I'll just share too, is sometimes from the masculine. Again, it's. It's maybe just offering a teeny bit of vision, but zero, like execution. It's kind of hard to. I'm not exactly sure how to hit it, but. So I had an experience with my partner a while ago, struggling with some things and just noticing where she was most energized in life and not. I came back from something and I was like, hey, I think you should do this because you're energized every time you do these things. And then, like, I just gave her a teeny vision and framework, like just very high level. And that was it. I was just like, you know, I think it'd be great like that because it feels like you're not getting to do those things you really love. And then she just ran off and created a whole new thing with that. So I didn't, like. There was no tactic or strategy in that. It was just noticing where her energy was and then inviting her towards that. It's like that was a version of directiveness in that. Which. That's a little newer for me. A little edgier for me in some ways, too.

Melanie Curtin: Well, one thing I love about that is that you. That's masculine consciousness again, right? Because it's similar to what we were saying about feedback versus direction. Because the feedback was. I see your whole body light up when you talk about these things. I witness your radiance when you share about this. And that is valuable. That is valuable because you are noticing her brightness and reflecting it back to her. Like you said, mirroring. I noticed the brightness. Here. Here's an idea I have about some structure for that, but the basis of it is you noticing her. And we love that. We love to be noticed in our radiance. It's one of the things that makes us the happiest about being your part, that direction. You know, I really liked what you said about, you know, I booked you this spa day because you've been anxious. And I think that's another sort of version of the classic he draws her a bath. Right? There's. That's polarity. To me, that's polarity. He's leading. He's creating an experience for her. He's responding to her beingness, and he's creating an experience for her, which is delightful and to your point, Jason, I think when you know your partner well, you have a sense of what that is, right? When you're dating and you're first getting to know someone, that's a little harder. But when you really know someone, you know what soothes them. And that's advanced, in my opinion. I think that's advanced. And what I love about that story with Violet is that, you know, to your point, she knows what regulates her system. She was like, I need time away from the house. I need to go talk to my women and be with them and maybe do. To get some, you know, tea or something fun or do something to be with them and to get that energy back. And she regulated herself. Right. That's impressive. A lot of people can't do that. And in a codependent dynamic that partners rely on each other to regulate themselves, there's a dependence of that which is what you're. What I heard in that was we are interdependent. I have ways of regulating myself outside of you and you have ways of regulating yourself outside of me. Me. And we can co regulate together. There's not, it's not one or the other, but there we, we know each ourselves well enough. And you know, to your point, a lot of couples don't know how to do that and it is harder to bring in after the fact. You can do it. Right. I mean, the whole point of I work with couples, you work with couples, we work with couples. And you can develop that over time. And, and it's important, it is important because that ability to regulate yourself is in my opinion, part of being a responsible adult. It is, it's sort of the difference between being an adult and being a child in an adult's body.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I would argue ultimately for sustainability, it's a non negotiable that both partners have some, at least some capacity that they're continuing to build. And then in that weird way, or not so weird way, but then it, it does actually tend to liberate when both partners have that capacity. It actually makes it easier to then offer each other that capacity. It's like, it's a very generative thing. Right. Oh, you are taking care of yourself. And so I have no problem like even supporting you even more in that because it's not like, yeah, there's no dependency in some ways that I've seen is really powerful.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's the difference. Right. Is that there's a neediness quality that I have experienced with partners that, that makes me want to back away instead of closer. And so that, that sense of like, oh, I'm your only support, really, I'm the only one you're talking to about this. You're. I'M it. I feel scared, I feel anxious, I feel a little overwhelmed. That doesn't feel sustainable or healthy. And it ends up that I. I'm backing away at a moment when he wants me to be coming closer. So there is a dynamic there of for some reason a person taking care of themselves in some way attracts more healthy love, I think than not. And I definitely want to just mention one thing before we wrap, which is don't underestimate the power of exercise. Exercise for me is huge. And most of the people I know in terms of regulating and I know that when I'm down or I witness people being down, it can be something that we drop. But I just want to shout out even just a walk of some kind, getting outside, going for a walk, 20 minute walk, doesn't matter, can really help. And yeah, it's important to make sure that we keep doing that because I. It makes such difference.

Jason Lange: Yeah. For a lot, a lot more than sometimes I think we realize change the, change the structure of your body, you'll change your state. Right. So just move your body, go do something else. Get into a new environment. It can bring, bring a lot, a lot in that sense. And you know, just the last piece I'll share that I actually think ties maybe a little bit more nuance into the first piece is yes, sometimes when my partner is down to. It's. It's just presence, it's just me even remembering to slow down, to just be with her in presence for a minute or two and that's it. Maybe some tears come, maybe they don't. I don't have to fix anything. I don't have to do anything. There's just, yeah, I'm here with you and it's okay and I love you and I know we'll get through this. And that is simple sounding, but that is like, that's the thing that takes all the work to be able to get to that place. For all kinds of reasons in my experience, but. But always worth it.

Melanie Curtin: Well, it's interesting because that capacity that you're pointing to of a deeply present and attuned man, I think the analogy with exercises is pretty good. Which is if you work out and you get strong, then when you need to lift that weight, you can. But if you're not strong enough by that point, you can't. If you haven't developed your capacity to hold space and presence, you can't just do it one day. But that building it up over time, oh, it's such a gift. It's such a gift. I know exactly what you're talking about of that. Just, like, coming over, just being with me, I'm like, oh, then whatever comes, needs to come, right? Whatever needs to come comes in that moment. Because it's a little bit like you are the sun and I'm the flower, and the flowers like this sun. Oh. And it's not a different flower exactly, but different elements of it are blooming because there's sunlight. So that's. That's a huge gift. And I think that's one of the things that has been really thrilling about watching our clients undergo that shift and expanding and becoming more present, grounded, attuned men in the world. And is that the women in their lives flower and blossom in different ways. And they're like, whoa, I'm having dating experiences I've never had before. And we're like, yeah, because you're showing up differently. You're different now, so you're having different experiences. And they're like, this is way easier. This is a lot easier, better than it was. And that's. That's just. That's a joy to witness. Because that, for me, as a woman, I think part of what's so gratifying about it is I love seeing our men have success, but I also love knowing that women in the world are being served and are having great experiences with our men. So there's a double, virtuous. Virtuous cycle happening there. So any. Any last. Any last shares before we wrap?

Jason Lange: You're not alone. You know, I think everybody's navigating this in large ways in the world right now, and that it's. It's. It's very much okay to get support and get help in that. It's, as I've been saying a lot, creating these types of male relationships and men's groups. It is an investment in yourself, your relationship, your family, and your future. Like in the. The dividends go up over.

Melanie Curtin: Well said. And if you are interested in our work, you can go to Evolutionary Men Training and take our free training. If you've been looking for a way to go deeper than the podcast, that's a good way to do that. That's Evolutionary Men Training.

Jason Lange: T.