Here's the tension that tears at the heart of modern relationships: we're more connected than ever through technology, yet men are telling me they've never felt more disconnected from their partners. In my conversation with Melanie Curtin, we explored this paradox that's showing up constantly in my work. Men aren't primarily struggling with frequency of sex, they're devastated by partners who are physically present but emotionally absent, going through the motions without真正的 desire or openness. It's a unique kind of loneliness that happens right next to the person you love most.
We covered a lot of ground in this conversation. The reality that polarity naturally drops as relationships get more committed and you're spending more face to face time managing life instead of relating. How kids fundamentally shift the dynamic from being a couple to being co-managers. The fact that our culture gives us zero tools for what happens after the "happily ever after" part, which is when the real work actually begins.
One thing I want men to understand is that wanting sexual connection with your partner is not shallow. It's not just about getting off. You want to feel her open to you, trust you, want you. That's the nutrient. That's what feeds aliveness in the relationship. And when that's not happening, it's rarely just about the sex, it's usually pointing to deeper connection issues, resentments, or patterns that need attention.
The good news is this stuff can shift. Sometimes dramatically. I had a guy recently do one simple presence practice with his wife and she told him, "I didn't even know you could give that to me." Something in her relaxed because she suddenly felt held in a new way. That's possible for a lot of guys, but it takes work, it takes learning some actual tools, and sometimes it takes getting help together.
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Melanie Curtin: But he never came to her and said, I'm concerned about our marriage. I'm scared that I'm either going to cheat on you or I'm going to leave. Because this is such a big deal to me. I really want us to get sex therapy. This is a core value for me in relationship. I need this. This is not a nice to have over here on the side. I feel some shame around saying that to you. I feel like I'm maybe disgusting or a pig or I want sex too much. And the truth is I want to be a good. I want to be an integrity. I don't. I don't want to cheat on you. I don't want to leave you. I want this marriage to work. And for that to work, this is a need that I have. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode. I'm so glad to have Jason Lange back with me today. We are talking about a pattern that we've seen pretty consistently in our work with our clients, and it's around wanting to feel closer to your wife. So we've talked to a lot of men who've talked about, you know, it's about the sex, but it's not just about the sex. Right. We're not having sex in my relationship. I miss sex. And, you know, I think a lot of those men have also sort of been shamed for that. If you're just interested in sex or it's all about the sex for you, when really it's about more than the sex. It's really about closeness and intimacy. Not just physical intimacy, but the feeling of closeness, the feeling of being held, holding warmth, love, the expression of love through the body. Again, not just sexually, but cuddling, closeness, touch, affection, all of that realm of things. So, yeah. Can you speak a little bit to the kinds of things you've heard from men kind of coming in with this on their heart?
Jason Lange: Yeah, it's been, you know, something we've been hearing increasingly as we've been working more with guys in relationship, guys in marriages. And one of the big pain points is the lack of sexual intimacy and connection in the relationship. Right. That's how they tend to first label it. Like maybe say, when I'm first talking to them, but very quickly, often as we're chatting, they make it very clear it's not just about that. Right. And one of probably the most painful experiences that a variety of men have shared with me is the experience of their partner just giving them sex. Right. So maybe they're asking for it or trying to initiate it, and the Time finally comes and it's like, rather than it being like a joyful co creation, it's like the partner just kind of relents and lets him have sex with her. And the amount of pain guys have shared with me in that is just, I mean it's just heartbreaking where you know, to their partner it's like, well, I'm giving you what you need. So like why, what's the problem? Right? And they actually almost get mad at them for it. And what that really speaks to is it's, it isn't just about the sex for so many of the guys we work with and so many, I think men who just want to be in passionate, healthy and connected relationships. And that's where I think the word you used of closeness is so key. It's about intimacy of which sex can be an incredibly powerful driver and part of. But isn't the whole thing right? As those guys experience, there's a way to have sex with someone, but it's not intimate, it's not connected, there's no closeness in it. It's just an act. And the feeling of kind of being stuck and trapped and not knowing what to do or how to change that, it can be a really painful place for a lot of guys that we've seen coming in. So that's one pretty big deep thing. The other one for some guys actually is just about like, yeah, I actually want to feel more emotionally connected to my wife and I don't know how to do that or I'm not sure she's actually open to that. And how do I manage that? Those are the two ends of the spectrum, so to speak. But it's the same thing in the end. It's wanting to feel closer to a partner but not necessarily knowing how.
Melanie Curtin: And what do you think is the origin of that pattern? Because again, it's not just about the sex. It's kind of. It's almost the end of the line meaning a bunch of stuff has happened before that point where to for example, the phrase we're just roommates. We hear that a lot. I've heard that a lot from a lot of different couples of just the feel like we're just roommates, we're just householding together, we're just raising the kids, we're just co parenting. We don't actually have a connected loving relationship. We're just doing life together side by side. How does a couple get there?
Jason Lange: Yeah, so I think it's a number of different things. One kind of early one, which is you're lucky if you have this conversation. A lot of people don't. Is just what are our values as a couple around our sexuality and our sexual connection. For a lot of couples, that's not really something discussed early on. And some people are less sexual than other people. It's not as drive, it's not as big a motivator. And one area I've seen that cause problems is into a relationship, it becomes clear that one partner is just not as actually interested in sex versus certainly what we like to suggest to our guys earlier on that journey in terms of dating or relationships is having those discussions early on, right? Like do you want sex to be a long term part of our relationship? Is it a high value for you? Is that something we want to invest in in terms of each other? So there's one there just not necessarily having that shared reality and finding yourself kind of mismatched with a partner. The bigger ones I think are, you know, tend to stem from a lot of what we talk about on this podcast in terms of polarity. So the practice of actually keeping intimacy and connection and, and chemistry alive with a couple and is is I've, I think spoken about before on here and like to teach. You know, I consider it a crossroads that all relationships start with a lot of polarity and not a lot of sameness. So not a lot of secure attachment because polarity. Another way to think about that is difference. It's difference, right? It's I am not you and you are not me. And that's what creates a lot of attraction, right? And when we first meet someone, we don't know a lot about them. We haven't seen them naked. We don't know what they look like when they're orgasming. We don't know what kind of sex they're into. We don't know their stories about life and their jokes and all that stuff. So there's a lot of novelty and a lot of hormones that then support that, right? In terms of that first nine months to year and a half really. But as we get closer to someone, polarity just by itself kind of naturally starts to drop off a little bit. While attachment increases, we're just getting more on the same page. We're kind of becoming more of one unit. We've had sex a lot of times. I've seen you naked before. I know what you're like, grumpy. I know what stories you tell at a party. That's when we start to see each other's patterns and habits and oftentimes make some Kind of commitment to each other, either in terms of the relationship, becoming exclusive, getting married, moving in with each other, and literally sharing more space with each other. So being together a lot more of the time. And over time, those things just tend to change. And then add on top of that, for a lot of people who just are still navigating Covid and not being out in the world as much, suddenly you're spending many hours a day potentially with your partner, not having a lot of space from them, which accelerates that even more. And then the other big one that just really is a huge milestone for so many couples is kids come into the equation and the family system, the family unit changes because suddenly it's not just me and you, it's me, you and this kid, potentially this kid, this kid, et cetera. And the impact of that, as I like to say, is that we go from spending a lot of face to face relational time to a lot of time being side by side managing life. Literally just managing life. Can you give kids today? Can you handle this chore? Where do we want to go for dinner tonight versus early on in dating and relationships a lot of times, because you don't live together, most of the time you spend with each other is very intentional. The purpose of us being together right now is to put our attention on each other and enjoy that. And that's the driver of a lot of polarity. As we get more committed and longer in a relationship, that'll often shift. Right. Where suddenly we're just two people next to each other and we're kind of with each other all the time in our culture, as I tell so many guys on our discovery calls and in our program, like, doesn't train us, doesn't give us any tools really. Right. We're mostly fed media ideas about marriage and long term partnership. And pretty much all of them end without, you know, other than a few exceptions with a couple getting together, like, oh, they got together, then they lived happily ever after. Right. Which is when the real work of relationship starts in my mind. And that's when you have to consciously start bringing some of these tools and practices that we talk about with our guys into the equation to keep the connection alive.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, there's, there's. So there's kind of two categories. One is polarity, which you talked about. Second, I want to briefly go back to the first one, which is openness around sexuality and sex as a value. And you know, I'm thinking of a close woman friend of mine who.
Jason Lange: She.
Melanie Curtin: Was not that open to sex and Sexuality. She didn't. And essentially she had some past trauma around it, and she didn't really want to go there. She didn't really want to deal with it. She didn't really want to look at it. And she. She did kind of fall into that category of she would occasionally have sex with her husband because she knew he wanted to, because she knew it was important to the relationship, but she didn't really enjoy it. She didn't really want it that much. And eventually he left. And there was. I think the way that it happened was unfair. And part of the reason it was unfair is because he never came to her and led a conversation in an intentional fashion, but he never came to her and said, I'm concerned about our marriage. I'm scared that I'm either going to cheat on you or I'm going to leave. Because this is such a big deal to me. I really want us to get sex therapy. This is a core value for me in relationship. I need this. This is not a nice to have over here on the side. I feel some shame around saying that to you. I feel like I'm maybe disgusting or a pig or I want sex too much. And the truth is I want to be a good. I want to be in integrity. I don't. I don't want to cheat on you. I don't want to leave you. I want this marriage to work, and for that to work, this is a need that I have. And the reason I bring that up is because we're going to be talking about leading in this conversation today, and specifically men leading in relationship. And I guess what I want to say is it's incredibly brave to lead those kinds of conversations. And to your point, Jason, I'd say the vast majority of men that we work with, and possibly the vast majority of men in the world, are not given good role models for how to have a conversation like that, how to lead a conversation like that. Not just have it, but lead it. We don't see it in the media. We don't see it in movies or television shows. We don't really hear. Most of us don't hear our parents having those discussions, if they're having them at all. Most of our clients have had either passive fathers who didn't really lead very much at all in the home, or aggressive fathers who also weren't leading. That's not leading. It's not leading to get angry or to shame people or to insult people or to. That's not leading. Domineering and dominating is not leading. So I think that intentional guiding, leading, driving things forward in an emotionally healthy way is deeply masculine and we don't have a lot of role models for that. I think this is also an inspiring thing because, for example, one of our, one of our clients. I'm thinking of a client who led a pretty vulnerable conversation with his wife around something similar and he didn't know which way it was going to go. He wasn't sure how it was going to go. It was really scary to say, I've been thinking about this for a while. I want us to be closer. And here are my, Here are my ideas around that, here are my thoughts around that. That's fucking scary to do with anyone, but especially with a long term partner, frankly, because to your point, Jason, they have. A couple has so many patterns, once they've been together for a while, so many dances that they do, so many ways they communicate, and many times they're echoes of the way that their families of origin operated. And in many people's families of origin, you didn't really have emotional dialogue. You didn't really talk about the things that were hard to talk about. You just didn't talk about them. You literally just didn't talk about anything. And I'm not talking about. You would talk about where we're going to send the kids, to your point, things about what we're doing in our lives, but our relationship, our connection, how we're relating was not really on the table. So to lead a conversation like that is scary and incredibly worth it. So in this man's case, it did lead to more closeness, it did lead to more intimacy. And it's not a straight line, it's not like A equals B. But the path is definitely trending in the right direction. And this is new territory. This is. You want to talk about starting up polarity again? That fucking generates polarity. You lead a scary conversation like that, you are generating polarity because where there is uncertainty and volatility is where there is polarity. Uncertainty and volatility, that's where polarity lives. It's the same thing that Esther Perel talks about when she talks about eroticism. It's uncertainty and volatile. If it's certain and stable, it's not polarizing. So there has to be some kind of fire, some kind of difference. And I think this kind of leadership is part of what goes along with that. And I think that's been one of the most gratifying and inspiring things I've witnessed in our clients is it is possible to do this in Relationship. Right. It is possible for men to start leading in long term partnerships and have it actually work. It's not always the case, but I've seen it happen multiple times and been inspired every time.
Jason Lange: It can be a process. What I like about one of the example you just shared, some of our men have had those conversations and they find, oh, it's not just magically fixed in one conversation. It becomes a series of conversations going through some of the past and talking about the present. It's the act of having those conversations that starts to recreate trust and starts to recreate connection. And it's from there, often sex will flow, good sex will start to flow again, and there'll be some energy for that again when I'm actually feeling connected to you as my partner, as my wife or spouse. And that, that's a process, right. It can be an uncomfortable process. And it does take that vulnerability of I don't know how this is going to go. Because what you might find out is it's not really a value of my partners or wow. There's some pieces here that, as I talked to some of our guys about that can be hard sometimes is you can come work with us and you can train with us and we can help you through masculine presence and communication and your leadership. But there is a point where you can't open your partner more than they're willing to open. And for some women, unfortunately, a considerably large amount of women that have sexual trauma or some kind of bad experiences in their history, that sometimes needs professional help, right? That goes beyond just their partner. And you can't really force your partner to do that. So if a partner gets to a spot where they're just not willing to do that work, you can hit a crossroads in the relationship. Right? And we have had other guys who have come to us who have had that conversation about wanting to feel more connected and having better sex with their partner. And then she's come back with that, well, it's just about the sex to you. And you know, there's one guy I'm thinking about that was like, okay, well then I'm not gonna, I'm just gonna take sex off the table for a while and see how we can connect as people. And it didn't get any better, right? It didn't get any better. Even though he was doing his work and he was, he was trying to lead. And I remember vividly at one point he and his partner did reconnect sexually and it was the same experience of, you know, she was just kind of there. And she wasn't really in it with him. And that was. That was pretty devastating for him after all that time and all that work. And that became a clear indicator to him of, like, this, this just isn't going to be the relationship for me anymore. And I need to start the process of, you know, ending it so I can be with a partner who's more aligned with me, connected, connection wise and sexually. And. And then. So hopefully she can too, right. With someone who maybe has more her pace or requirement or similar interest in sex. So that's what's scary about these conversations, right? Is they can end things or they can really open things. And I think a lot of times there can be a lot more opening there than guys realize, but it takes that really getting in there and having the conversation. Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: And I think that's a good example of, you know, a lot of the men that have been coming to us lately, I think do fall more in the category of their partners are pretty open. Their women are open to being led, frankly, and they are having good experiences when they're leading. And like, I remember one guy who's been, yeah, just stepping up more, being more in his. In his masculine presence, leading more in. In the home, emotionally and in other ways. And there was a day when his wife just turned to him and gave him a big hug and he could just feel her relaxing into him. And he was like, I've wanted this for a long time. Like, this is the. This is the movement that I've wanted for a long time. This is the kind. This is the feeling. This is the feeling. The feeling is I want to be close to you. I see you. You're my man. We're in this together. That feeling of we're teammates, I love you. I'm here with you. Intimacy. That's intimacy. And it's not just about sex. It's really about more than that. And I think that that's a common thing that we hear. And I just wanted to hear you just touch on it a little bit more, which is, what do you tell men whose partners are saying? It's just all about. It's just all about the sex for you. It's just about sex.
Jason Lange: I like to tell them that's actually a really big deal. So in the sense that I think there's a way, you know, we tend to work with a lot of nice guys like myself, who are extra cautious about our sexuality because we don't want to just be sexual brutes or jerks. Right. Guys who are in it just for the sex. So. So there's a little bit of being extra cautious around that. Then when our partner comes at us with that, there can be, like, a little bit of internalizing. Like, is it just about that for me? And I don't know, maybe she's right, and I don't want to just seem that. And, you know, you and I both, I think, like to take a stand for men. It's like, no, that's actually a really big deal. Like, it's a big deal that you're. You're not having healthy, gratifying sex in your relationship. And that is a concern. You know, I've been telling guys a lot recently, like, I do think sex is kind of the canary in the coal mine, that when that's not happening, it's rarely just that that's not working, right. There's deeper connection or intimacy or resentments or all kinds of different things happening in the relationship in that. You know, one of the things I remember, I learned from Dr. Glover, one of the times we had him talk to our community was just a simple, you know, re highlighting of, hey, kind of one of the central agreements in a monogamous relationship for those guys that are in monogamous relationships is I'm agreeing not to have my sexual needs met anywhere else. So with that comes a little bit of an obligation to meet your partner in that it's not forcing yourself to, but to be able to, a willingness to put some energy into that, to be generous to your partner. And that goes both ways. And that when that's not on the table, that's like not fulfilling a vow in a lot of ways. That is a big deal. It's a big deal, and it's okay for it to be a big deal. And so I share that with guys, and then I often help them. You know, I think we often help them kind of understand, even get a sense in their own body of it's not just about the sex. And why exactly, in terms of the deeper. The deeper feeling underneath that it's like they want to be having sex with their specific partner, not just any woman. Because another thing I've heard from guys is like, well, why don't you just get your sexual needs met elsewhere? They could just go outside the relationship. And that is just as devastating for some men. And you would. You know, there's stereotypes that for. That would be a lot of men's fantasy, but it's not. Not a lot of men's fantasy. They want to be having sex with their partner. That's why they chose that partner and they want their partner to want to have sex with them back. And there's there, there, there is an energy to that that, you know, I think for a lot of us men who are kind of holding that more alpha or masculine role, it's. Right, it's. It's seeing our partner open. It's the opening that is such a turn on. Seeing her get into her desire, it's feeling her trust us, it's feeling her losing herself and trusting us, it's feeling her wanting us. Right. That's the turn on as much as the act itself. Right. It's the energetic opening that like in the story you just shared. Absolutely. Can come through so powerfully in sex, but can also come from like just a. And embrace and like melting in our arms a little bit. Like, ah, that feels so good. And some men don't quite have the languaging for that nutrient yet. Right. That it's, it's about feeling our partner open to us specifically that is such a driver of that closeness and that connection, which sex can be a fundamental part of, but it's kind of bigger than that in some ways. So I really like to help guys get a sense of that. So they have a language in their body and an understanding of how they can lead that conversation a little bit. That. Yeah, it's not, it's not just about that. Right. If it was just about the act or the release, you know, I could go use porn or you know, for some guys that do get the offer going outside the relationship, but that's not it because that's not what they want. They want the closeness with their specific partner. You want to feel them wanting them and to be wanting that connection in a relationship.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And what's interesting is I, that the word that keeps coming to me in this conversation is passivity. That when, when the masculine is passive, when there's a certain amount of passivity, there seems to be a connection that I've seen repeatedly of men who are, who are, who are passive. And I don't mean that in a static way, not they are passive for life, but just they're being passive. Men who are being passive will often attract dominating or domineering and occasionally abusive women. So men that have not stepped into their power, who don't know how to lead and who are pretty passive and sometimes don't even realize they're being passive often attract women who are dominating and then they suffer. And to a smaller extent. Right. There are dynamics where, let's Say the woman has a personality disorder. Maybe she has borderline personality disorder, and it truly doesn't matter. If that man steps into his power and becomes more active and starts leading, it's not going to work. But on a smaller scale, because it's sort of a continuum. We have seen clients where the man has been passive for a long time, but he's stepping into his power more during the course of the program and after. And it is polarizing his partner. It does polarize his partner. There is a dance that happens when a man becomes more active, starts leading, starts taking healthy emotional risks with his partner, starts leading the relationship. And a couple examples of this are having an explicit conversation like, I would like to make dealing with our household easier for you. Here are my two ideas. I want to hire a cleaner to come every two weeks and deal with the kitchen and the bathroom. And I want to get us blue apron and have a ready to go meal come three nights a week so that neither of us has to figure out what we're cooking and we can do it together. How does that sound? She might not say yes. I don't know that she would say yes to either of those, but it's an example of I'm leading. I have thought about this. I have a suggestion. I'm. I. My intention is I want to make life a little easier for you, because it is. When you are householding, there's a lot on people's minds. And in many households, women take on more of the household emotional labor. And so for a man to recognize that and say, I want you to feel relaxed in our house, Here are some of my thoughts about how that could happen. She might not say yes to those two, but she might say thank you. That feels really good. I actually, what I really want is, I've been thinking about this, and it seems like maybe it's a splurge, but one of those laundry services where they just take care of it, they pick it up, they drop it off, they fold it, everything's done. I haven't mentioned it because I don't know if we have space in our budget, et cetera. But now you're talking about it, and you led it. You led the conversation. You are leading in a way that I've seen repeatedly with some of our men. They've not led before, that they've not actually. They've kind of followed in many ways their partner or responded to things from their partner. So she brings it up like, I'd like to try this, or I think we should do this, it's like, okay, sure, but it's not the same as I'm tracking what's happening. And I. I am a stand for our relationship. You know, date night is another example. Right. It's pretty obvious one, but that's. That's a. That's a pretty big deal. To your point that you've made of. When the man has his awareness on the relational aspect of us connecting, you and me as a man and a woman connecting, and takes some responsibility around that, that can also shift polarity. And so I guess I just wanted to hear a little bit more about your own experience. Do you feel like you have. Do you feel like you started out more passive and then became more active or more, I don't know, leadershipy, whatever that adjective is.
Jason Lange: Sure.
Melanie Curtin: Your life in your relationship life. And how did that affect polarity?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think I've maybe spoken a little bit about some of my patterns in the past, that it was actually always easy. Easier for me super early in the relationship, like, to kind of be leading, making plans and going hikes and doing those types of things. But as we started more moving in or getting more solid, that's almost always when I would fall apart, particularly when we'd be spending a lot of time with each other. That's when my family system would emerge in me, so to speak, and I would just recreate to shocking degrees of like, wow, I thought I was a pretty conscious person. And here I am doing the exact same things my parents did. And so that's been a process. That was a huge process, probably the first year and a half of my marriage. And it's an ongoing process, meaning it's not just fixed. Like, I have to consciously work at it and continue to get feedback from my partner around, oh, yeah, this is. I'm not feeling held in this way. I'm not feeling our relationship held in this way. And then it's like, oh, yeah, fuck, I'm still. Still learning at it. So I'm still in process in that. Getting better? Yes. Meaning, am I bringing more of a correct dose and attention to it more regularly? Yes. Is it where I'd like it to be or my partner would like it to be? No. Right. I'm still. Still working it and still living it all myself. And it's gotten easier the more I've done this kind of work and, you know, took many trainings with gifted teachers who taught me different things and techniques and strategies that really do help, really do help of like, yeah, how do I lead this all? And increasingly as well, part of what we work with guys on, and I work in my own life, is like, part of that. Just as the masculine sometimes is holding the structure of like, well, if we don't have time or energy to relate, like you said, oh, part of my action is actually how do I shift our lifestyle or the structure of our life so we can have more time or energy with each other. And that's not always quick and easy fixes necessarily. That can be deeper stuff that takes. Takes more intention. But I am increasingly on the megaphone about obviously, because it's kind of how it's playing out in my life. But for a lot of married men I've been connected to that have kids in particular. And seeing that as much as we do step in and try to help with the household and everything, uh, it's often the mothers that are just holding more, more managing the kids more just they are like, I try to step in as much as I can, and there's literally times my daughter won't let me help her. And it has to be mama, right? And there's so there's cost to that for my partner. And what I'm increasingly convinced of is as this new paradigm of, like, what conscious relationships are of it in that instance. In these instances, it's the masculine responsibility to hold the relationship, to hold the me and you, the couple, inside of the family system. I need to be tracking that and doing the things and calling the things to make the shifts of you're too tired or you're too stressed, then, yeah, we need to get some help here. We need to do this kind of thing, or I just need to put more time and energy in something again. I have to work at every day of. And I teach our guys connection with the feminine is sunshine and water. Right? It's presence and praise and connection kind of all. And you don't get to just do those once. It's not like, oh, I did that. We're good, now I can coast. It's like, well, I got to do that again tomorrow. I got to do that again this afternoon. I got to keep that constantly. That meter kind of fed in a way. And when it is, in my experience, when that kind of relational cup and that connection with our partners is fed, sex is so much more in play and fluid and wanted and desired and just novel and emergent, creative and all those different things. And when it's not, it feels like work for both partners. And it can be a rough go. And that's where sometimes men get stuck and that's where we do have to learn to take some responsibility of. Everybody's sexual system is different, but for a lot of men we can kind of be ready to go in a second. For a lot of women, not necessarily. There's more warm up time, there's more lead things you're so great at teaching, more need for connection and that can take a little longer and in fact, optimally it's never not happening. There's foreplay all day, every day to kind of keep things moving and energized for when we do have time for sex or a connection there. And that act of like putting that energy in for a lot of guys, you know, can feel like a burden at first until they've had the experience of what can come back at them when you do feed that meter, so to speak. And like, oh, wow, yeah, that's what I was wanting. And it turns out I can't just ask for that at pm when we haven't connected all day. I actually have to start the morning of checking in with her, how she's doing, how I'm doing, making sure the connection's good, talking about how excited about her I am, how good she looks, all those different things. And that takes work, that takes training and that often also takes learning structures to bring to the relationship as well. So that's a lot of stuff we've been working with some current men on as well as giving them some of the structures to have some kind of anchor points in your week or your day for how to, how to lead that and make sure that's part of the relationship.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, there's something I think that I've witnessed that's been interesting and also inspiring around exactly what you said of men who I think didn't realize that they had abdicated leadership or didn't, didn't notice, hadn't noticed, hadn't seen the pattern of. Wow. Yeah, I wasn't very present and I wasn't really leading for most of the time. And when they basically when they realize it and they start bringing more presence and attention and care, like you said, the response is often for an open woman, pretty drastic. And I'm not saying drastic in the sense of like her panties are dropping right away, but it's a marked difference from the months or years that those men have been in these relationships. It's like, oh, it feels different now. There's something that feels different about our relationship. It feels like we're going somewhere. There's a new kind of trajectory and a lot of it isn't that hard. And I'm a little cautious to say that because, yes, it takes effort and it takes. It takes intention, and we teach men how to be more present and all of that. But it's also not rocket science. It's not something that you need a ton of, you know, extra time for. For example, I mean, you know, we. We talk about the morning practices, and we talk about expanding the capacity of your nervous system, which is really important because to be able to hold the feminine, you do need to be grounded. You need to be grounded. You need to be able to ground and hold energy. And if your nervous system can't do that, it's going to be really hard. So, yes, there are ways that you need to kind of train in a way, but then once you have, you know, there's just a lot of potential. There's a lot of potential. And one of our guys said something really awesome the other day. He said something like, I'm in my late 40s, and I feel like I'm just being started. Or I'm. I'm in my late 40s, and, man, I'm. I'm ready to live my best life. Like, I'm. I'm excited, I'm energized, I'm jazzed. I'm like, fuck, we're fucking doing this. And this is. This is new. And I think there's something really beautiful about that, because I think for a lot of men, it can feel like it's too late or it's never going to change. It's going to be like this forever. And yes, there are certain relationships where you do need to evaluate. When I bring my leadership, when I leave it all on the floor, when I really go for it, and I'm leading with vulnerability, and I'm doing all the things, and I'm not getting any response back. She's not sort of turning towards me and opening, like you said, not necessarily immediately, but just repeatedly. Yeah. Sometimes those relationships do need to end. And if you especially have a trauma background as a man, if you grew up in a chaotic family of origin or a family of origin with a lot of neglect, it's possible that you may have attracted an abusive partner. And that. That is a thing that happens. And you need to evaluate whether that's. That's what's going on. And this. This kind of pattern that we're talking about, of being active, leading, becoming more conscious, all of that is a good litmus test. Right. If you. If you're doing those things, what we're seeing repeatedly is that women who are open, women who, who are invested in their partner and who do want to relate with him, they do turn towards their men, they do open, they do light up, they do, you know, things do shift. So it's not impossible. And it is a dance. You have to have two people to dance the tango. You can't dance tango alone. And you gotta be leaning, both, leaning into. Literally leaning into each other for that dance to work. And that's kind of how partnership is. You really kind of need both people to be invested in growing, for. For you to be in a growth relationship. You can't have one person who's not. And I really appreciated what you said about ongoing nature of, of your own partnership, because I think that's. Conscious relationship doesn't mean perfect relationship. It doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean perfection. It just means, are we in dialogue about these things? Do I have my attention on leading if I'm holding the masculine and do I have my attention on opening if I'm the feminine, Am I bringing my heart to my man? Am I revealing myself to him in a, In a. If he's safe, if he's not safe. That's not. But I'm talking about in sort of, yeah, unconscious relationships. I have a responsibility, I feel in my relationship to disclose, to reveal, to show my man my heart. And that's not always easy. That's an emotional risk. And it's, it's challenging. And if I want that conscious partnership, it's kind of a must. I kind of have to do that. And same, especially if I want polarity. Same thing we've been talking about. If I want to generate polarity, that's part of how I do. And it's the same thing with the masculine. And when you said about foreplay all day, every day, first of all, sounds fucking dope. I would love that. But, yeah, it's amazing how truly just feeling noticed, really feeling noticed by my man doesn't have to take that long. It's not a big elaborate thing. It's. He's present in his body. He sees me walk in. I can feel it. I can feel it in his eyes. I can feel it in his body. I can feel that he sees me. And I can feel when he doesn't see me and he's distracted, he's ruminating. He's worried about his life. He's worried about whatever he's doing. He is. He is not. He does not see me. He. I do not feel noticed. So these Moments. We're talking about the foreplay. And all of that foreplay is not just making out. It's. It's. It's attention, it's presence. It's all the things that we talk about all the time on this podcast. And it really does make a difference. It really does have me feel like I matter to him. He finds me desirable. I'm a lot more inspired to do fun, sexy things when I feel desirable. Right. And his attention is part of what has me feel desirable. So I guess I just wanted to say that there is something magical about that idea of conscious partnership. Not that it's perfect, but that we're both in the game, we're both on the court, we are both playing in this space.
Jason Lange: Yeah. There's a context of growth for the relationship that we're just continually moving towards more with each other, more connection, more wholeness, more polarity.
Melanie Curtin: And you've said it before, you know, in. In your relationship and others, sometimes leading is okay. We need to see. We need to see a skilled couples person. Like, we are stuck now. We. We have hit an impasse. We are both trying as hard as we can. We're stuck. We need another person in the room. And that is leading. That is fucking leading. Leading is not figuring it all out yourself. That is not leading. Leading is attuning to the moment and bringing in what is called for in that moment. And sometimes that's help.
Jason Lange: Yep. Professional help workshops, getting outside forces involved, which the leadership is knowing, hey, I can't lead us through this. I don't have the tools or equipment to do that. And I want to. So I want to get us help to guide us on that. That's such a powerful move in a lot of ways that men shouldn't be afraid of or, hey, I learned something. And now I want to go educate myself more about this experience we had last night or something like that. That's still leadership. A willingness to learn and try to get better and iterate with each other on both sides. And so it's, you know, it's actually a process of imperfection that you stay connected through. That makes for an awesome relationship when it works.
Melanie Curtin: Actually, that's a good way of putting it. And I also been really uplifted by men that we've worked with. There have been several men like this who've come and said, I'm here because my woman has been doing a lot of work on herself, and I am invested in our relationship, and I know that I need to grow. I just know it like, she she's really showing up. She is doing. She is doing the thing. And I see her investing and trying and growing her side and her half of the equation, and it inspires me. Like, I want to do that, too. I want to show up for her because she deserves it. I've just been in awe of men like that and just I look up to them. I feel like that's such a generous and, yeah, just it's such a giving thing to do. And it's really warmed my heart.
Jason Lange: Yeah, it's so awesome when those guys come to us. And it's such a great example of that same context of growth. Like you said, it takes two to tango. And sometimes you have to practice together and sometimes you have to practice apart. And it all works a lot better when you're doing both. When you're practicing apart and doing your work and doing your healing, and then you're coming together to practice and do your work and doing your healing. And anytime there's just one person and not the other, that's where we've seen people really get stuck sometimes, though. Sometimes, not always, but sometimes the. Well, I'm just going to go first. I'm going to go first and take responsibility and start doing my healing work will create enough of, like, an energy differential in the partnership that the other partner will start to step into that space like some of those men have. And we've also seen in the other direction as well that some. Some women are like, yeah, okay, no, this feels good, and I'm excited we're doing this. And I do think I need to go see someone or go join a women's group or go to our program or kind of get some of my energy moving in different ways so I can be more available to you and what you're trying to bring to us.
Melanie Curtin: And I think that's such a beautiful synonym for leading is being willing to go first, being willing to go first, being willing to bring up the hard thing, being willing to name. We don't have enough time for each other. We might need to move. Right. We might need to make a big lifestyle shift so that we have time and energy for each other. You know, it's. To your point, it's like it's not always the same thing that's needed in different seasons. It's something different. And that's kind of the whole point of being attuned to each other and being attuned to life, frankly. Which is. Which is part of, to me, why practices are so critical. Right. Practices and meditation practices of breathwork, all the practices we talk about. It helps us stay connected to life and guidance from life. And to me, that's what's trustable about my man. That is why I trust his lead, because he's connected to something greater. It's not just coming from his ego. It's that I trust. You are leading us because you are listening to what is greater as well. You are. You are being guided by a greater force. So in a way, you are following life and you are leading us from that place. That's what's truly sexy. And that's, you know, doesn't have to be complicated. I'm thinking about, you're in a really loud place with someone you're on a date with, whether that's your wife or whoever else. It's really loud. You can't hear. It's not fun because you can't hear. And you say, you know what? We're leaving. I'm taking us somewhere else. I'm taking us somewhere for dessert where we can actually hear each other. Because I want to know what you have to say that is leading. It doesn't need to be big and elaborate. It's just what is called for in the moment that will bring more connection and closeness. So, yeah. So as we sort of start to wrap up here, I'm curious if you just have any sort of favorite, I don't know, success stories that you. That come to mind for you around this?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm actually thinking of one. One from a couple weeks ago. I had a session with a guy, and we were talking about a lot of this stuff and being the one to initiate that and the structure. And I gave him a very simple practice. Very simple practice. One of the most simple ones we'll often have guys do. And he did it the next day. He texted me the day after that, and he was like, oh, my God, it totally worked. And what she said to me was, I didn't know you could give that to me. I didn't even know you could give that to me. And, like, he gave her a type of presence and connection that she had been longing for and didn't even know. And so for her, something started to relax that, oh, my God. Wow, he has that capacity now. He's going to be held to a higher standard because she knows he has that capacity now, and that's a good thing. But that was such a. Such a potent one. And it just took less than 20 minutes. Less than 20 minutes between these two had been. They weren't married, but they ended up dating for about a year and had really had some struggles around sex and connection and stuff.
Melanie Curtin: That's a great one. I can feel myself melting around that, especially because there's something about, you know, that drive to provide that the masculine has. And I'm not just talking about material providing, but just to provide. It's such a. It's such an innate part of the healthy masculine. And to have. Yeah. To have a partner say, I didn't know you could give that to me. There's something really beautiful about that. Cause it's like, oh, I gave her something meaningful. I gave her something meaningful that she loved. That's. That's a great example. You can't see it, but I'm about to put the heart emoji on the screen for all of you that aren't here. Rose heart. Rose heart. Okay, so if you. Yeah. If you want to learn more about working with us, you can always take our free training, which is available at Evolutionary Men Slash Training. If you want to go deeper than the podcast, especially if this resonated with you.
Jason Lange: Don't.
