205: So an introvert and an extrovert walk into a bar… | Dear Men

Jason Lange: And the fact that yes, sometimes I just needed to be a home alone and not be in relationship at all. And creating those kind of moments for myself has become really critical for my ongoing health and well being.

Melanie Curtin: Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode. I am happy to have my co coach extraordinaire here with me again. Jason Lange, thanks for being here.

Jason Lange: Good to be back.

Melanie Curtin: We are talking about introverts and extroverts today and this is a topic close to my heart. I am a strong extrovert with a lot of introverted loved ones and have some experience in this area. So interested in this conversation and part of my intention for this is to really raise awareness about what it means to be an introvert or an extrovert and what kind of relational needs go along with that. Right. What do we need in romantic relationship as well as friendships? But really our focus is romantic relationship with respect to those. So real quick, before we start officially, I think I just want to ask you, Jason, about what your impression of what it means to be an introvert or an extrovert is. Because I have a sort of specific lens and I think that we need to discuss that because people mean different things when they use these two words. Sort of the way that masculine and feminine comes along with a lot of things. I think the words introvert and extrovert come along with a lot of things. So what is your impression of what it means to be an introvert or be an extrovert?

Jason Lange: Yeah, so I am a self professed introvert and tend to be more introverted in my being and how I've kind of come to experience this in myself and what I've experienced in others. So my take is just where do you recharge? So it's, it's not that either one you can't do, it's just that one is where you actually go to, to recharge. So as an introvert I can go into big parties, crowds, events and then I need time, I just, I need time to myself on the other side. Just, I just need that time. That's where I kind of regenerate, so to speak, in resource. And extroverts I know seem to kind of be the other way. Right. They'll get a little fatigued if it's just alone time and they, they need that kind of people time to, to kind of restock their, their, their energy battery, so to speak.

Melanie Curtin: I love that. I think I would say similarly that for me introversion is not synonymous with being shy. So I guess I would start with what I think it's not. I think sometimes, culturally, we think we sometimes will use the word introvert as a synonym for reserved. That is not my experience. My mother was a Myers Briggs trainer, so I'm pretty well versed in Myers Briggs. And that mbti, for those that have heard the acronym, and that's a pretty strong definition in that realm, is exactly what you said, which is how do we recharge our batteries? Meaning, for example, my sister is an introvert. I am an extrovert. When we go to a party, we look the same, we're super engaging, we're gregarious, we're talking to everyone, lots of storytelling, very outgoing. Outgoing, not a wallflower. My sister is not a wallflower. Now after that, like you said, she's gonna need some alone time. She's probably gonna be tired. Whereas I'm. I'm ready to go. I'm excited, I'm energized. So I think that is a really important place to start from is that I have heard many people have sort of a judgment of themselves around being an introvert. And some of the things, things that I've heard, I think in my world are not true. It's sort of like that's not an introvert thing. That's something that our culture has placed on that. But in my experience, introverts and extroverts can be equally as gregarious, outgoing, vibrant, fun, dynamic, love people, types. And to your point, what do they need to recharge? How do they actually operate? In certain ways, which we'll get to. But I just wanted to kind of get that out of the way first because I do think that there's a lot of people who are, who really like spending time with people and consider themselves outgoing. And so they don't necessarily identify as introverts, that that might be introverts. The other needs might line up on the other side of that. So part of what I think is great about this conversation is I'm a strong extrovert and I experience you as a pretty strong introvert. So I think we have a lot of experience ourselves in this realm. And again, I think that self awareness and awareness of our partners and their actual needs can really smooth the way because I think there's a lot of kind of, I don't know if I'd say misunderstandings, but there's a lot of angst that doesn't need to be present in some relationships that is present because of these needs. And that's something that we're going to Speak to. So I'm curious to hear from you a little bit of. Can you share a little bit about your own journey of kind of owning your own introvertedness? Was there a point when you were younger when you didn't really know what your needs were? What are they in relationship and how have they. You know, how have you evolved in terms of your way that you relate to them?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I definitely felt like a shyer person in a lot of ways, particularly in big social kind of environments. But, you know, through high school in particular, I knew. I knew how to connect with people, though, because I had a couple people I could, like, really go really deep and feel super comfortable with. And all that energy that you just spoke about can't, you know, came about from. As I got older, into college and stuff. You know, anytime we were, like, connecting around a theme or something, or like a class or studies or stuff, which I think is why I tend to be pretty passionate about certain interests as it makes it. I don't know, it just does something that makes it a little more introverted, friendly. I would say the biggest shift I've had over the years was particularly when I got into the dating scene more. So those who know I was a later bloomer, so didn't do that so much in high school, in college, really. But as I. As I left there, you know, I did notice a wanting to be more extroverted in that, you know, most of the dating stuff at that time kind of came from the pickup world. And it was all extroverted, focused about just getting out there and approaching making yourself known. And so, you know, there was a period of time where I did that, where I was out there and I was going to bars with friends and kind of doing that whole scene. And there was a point in my growth and development, though, I remember. And I've told this story to a couple of guys on our calls where I was, like, out one night, and then I actually just really checked in, and I was like, wow, I don't want to be here in, like, a loud bar. I can't hear anyone, can't really talk. I don't even really want to be drinking right now. I would actually just rather be at home. And, you know, there was a moment I fully gave myself permission for the first time where I was just like, hey, guys, I'm gonna go home. It's just. No, I'm fine. Like, you don't have to feel bad for me. I just, like, I don't want to be here right now. And then I went home and, you know, recharged. And I think that was my first experience of, oh, wow, there's a way I've kind of been trying to make myself a little different than I am. And it was, it's been relieving over the years to kind of let go of that. And you know, I remember I was super impacted. There's a book that was pretty popular, I don't know, five years ago called Quiet, which was all about introverts. And the author that she kind of talked about, she kind of listed even in like, because I'm a transformational guy, right. We're into spiritual growth and all that. She basically kind of made one of those like blind charts where she was like, all the attributes we tend to ascribe to people that are like, enlightened and really awesome and just like all extrovert can go to talk to anyone, can be really outgoing, never gets knocked over, like really confident, like. And it just hit me where I was like, wow. I've been mapping a whole judgment of myself against just extraversion of even what it means to be like a grounded present man. And as that has shifted over the years, that's where I just really started to give myself permission to kind of go into my grooves occasionally. Loud bar, sure. Way more what I like kind of small, intimate house parties. I like authentic relating events. I like going deep with a couple people. I'm happy to go to a big party, but what's going to happen for me is I'm probably going to end up talking to two or three people the whole night and be very satisfied with that and not feel like I have to be stressed working around the room or saying hi to everyone or anything like that. And so it's been me kind of feeling into my slot of what works and then knowing even at sometimes bigger, more energetic events or when I'm more out there that, yeah, I need recharge time on the other side of that, which has been so important for me and shows up, you know, has showed up in my last couple of relationships too. And you know, which we'll talk about some tensions around that soon.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, absolutely. I, I really appreciate what you said about the. That book Quiet for anyone that is an introvert or identifies that way and hasn't read it, strongly recommend it. And one of the qualities that I really like about introverts is the, the developed introverts that I know hold a quality of stillness that I find very inviting as an extrovert. And this is, this is something Important to note, I have found that introverts often pair with extroverts romantically. That's a pattern I've seen repeatedly in my own friend group as well as I would say in our clients. And I would say that I, I'm most familiar with the introverted man, extroverted woman dynamic. That's a lot of what we're probably going to be talking about today. And I just want to name that's not the only dynamic. That's just one that I've witnessed a lot and in our work as well as personally. And one of the. Yeah, one of the qualities that I find sexy about developed introverts is that desire to go deep and capacity to be still. And of course that's not true of everyone. I'm not kind of generalizing to the entire population, but as an extrovert myself, I feel a lot of spaciousness around that of being with introverts. It feels like there's a lot of space for me to express and that a lot of them enjoy that they enjoy my expression. And so I feel really there's just a nice yin yang dynamic there that's actually pretty good fit in a lot of ways in partnership as long as both people are aware of the deeper needs that go along with, with those things. And there are several things I want to cover, but one of them is this has frequently been my experience that the extroverts in my life think aloud. So there's a way that extroverts friends and people I know, and this is true for me as well, I don't always know how I feel or what I think as an extrovert until I'm sharing it with someone that is very different from the introverts in my life. I, my father's an introvert, my sister's an introvert, all of my ex boyfriends are introverts. I have experienced them much more as they don't always share how they're feeling or what they're thinking. And much of the time they'll come to me with a fully formed opinion or thought or plan or thing they're talking about for their life. And I'm like, wow, I didn't even know you were thinking about that. So they have a whole other way of thinking through the world. And in my experience, some of them have run into trouble in relationship again, romantic relationship or otherwise, because they, they haven't been running things by their partner, they haven't been sharing along the way. Whereas it's pretty rare when you're In a relationship with an extrovert, to not kind of have a sense of what's going on, Because a lot of the time, they're talking all the time. Not constantly, but they're talking a lot. They're talking a lot. They're often talking a lot more than you. And so you have a more complete map of, like, what's going on along the way. And I'm curious if you can speak to that a little bit in relationship. Have you run into that? And how has that shown up? Has that ever been a problem in your relationships? And kind of. How have you navigated that with partners?

Jason Lange: Certainly with my wife. I mean, I think that's a good example of she's far more likely to talk things out, and I'm far more likely. You know, I would almost think of it as, like, where's the processing happening? Like, with an introvert, it's just literally happening inside an extroverted. It's, like, happening in the relationship. And so she's a little more on that side of things where she'll, you know, process and bounce things off me. We're all. Yeah. Mostly the gears are just grinding in my head until it's like, ding. You know, like, the answer prints out. And it's like, hey, here's this thing, which can definitely lead to some tension sometimes because it's not actually the most connecting thing, particularly if it's about our relationship or decisions we're having together. And, like, I'm not actually relating in the process of coming to that. That. That can be. Be a sense of stress. And, you know, if I'm not super conscious about. So I have to invite Violet into everything. But to some extent, it's to even let her know I'm processing. It's like, she doesn't. I don't have to say the whole content. It's just like, yeah, you know, I'm working on this thing, or I'm thinking about this thing. I'm not sure yet. Like, to just name the thing I'm even working on has been a big hack, I would say, in kind of just offering a little bit of a bridge into. Okay. Like, you don't have to tell me the thoughts. We don't have to go into that necessarily. But at least I know what's going on in there to some extent. I have a clue. So that's been a pretty big and important shift for us. And those little motions go a long way for her, at least, just to feel clued into my inner world.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. Thank you for speaking to that, because I think that's what I was trying to say a little bit is I think that a potential source of tension can be an extrovert. Doesn't know a lot of the time what the hell is going on in the introverts world. I'm curious if you can give a concrete example. One that came up for me was, for example, potential holiday plans, where are we going to spend the holidays, etc. Is that something where you're like, hey, I'm thinking about this, I don't know yet. But what are some concrete examples, if you can give them, of letting her know this is something I'm thinking about? Or is it, hey, I'm considering quitting this one of the jobs that I have. I don't. I'm not ready to talk about it yet, but it's a thing I'm.

Jason Lange: Is it?

Melanie Curtin: What are some examples of actual.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'd say a recent one would be some shifts in negotiations in our daily schedule in terms of how we're splitting our time in childcare that, you know, she had made a request and then, you know, it's not that I just needed like a moment to think about it. It's like I needed a week to feel into it and the repercussions and how I would orient my day and all these different things that was happening. But I didn't let her know that was happening. So she got a little upset at one point because she felt a little dropped by it. Like, and you said you were going to do this thing. And I was like, actually I've been thinking about it all week and I'm very close to like having a completion just wasn't there. So that was an example of when I didn't actually name it. And the consequence of that kind of thing, of maybe it's a discussion we've had and I need some time to process it or things like that. Other things would be, yeah, you know, when I launch events or create new programs or new art projects, you know, there's just kind of letting her know this is something I'm working on. Like has been a really big thing of like, yeah, I think I'm going to do an event, you know, this summer. Don't really know when yet or any of the details. Right. Sometimes that's about as much as I can give her. But that all that grinding is happening in my head, so to speak, and it helps her to know.

Melanie Curtin: That's a great example. The one about, you know, she makes a request about something like timing and childcare and you're thinking about it. I think that's a perfect example of something that couples do need to be conscious and mindful of is the hacks. Right? The hacks of, like, what helps us here? Because I could see being in a similar circumstance of, I asked you about this a week ago and it feels like nothing's happening. It feels like, you know, you didn't. Somehow I'm not feeling heard or I'm not feeling, you know, respected around this, when really the introvert is totally thinking about it and all the processing is happening, but there's no, you know, thinking allowed. Right? Because the extrovert every day be like, yeah, sort of thinking, maybe we could do this, but I'm not sure yet. They're kind of doing it as they go along, whereas the introvert is still doing the processing, to your point. And it can smooth the way to just say, by the way, I'm still thinking about this. I heard you. I heard you on Sunday. I'm thinking about that thing you said. And what occurs to me as well is I think it's respectful and it's good for an extrovert to be mindful of. Not everyone wants to be questioned and about their thing. So, for example, I'm thinking of doing this event this summer. I don't have the details yet. Just wanted to let you know that might be all that's needed. And it's important for the extrovert to know. Whereas sometimes I think I know I can get excited and be like, oh, tell me more, like, what dates are you thinking? What do you. Who do you want to be there? And sometimes I think that can be overwhelming to the introvert because they're not. They. They don't necessarily want to talk through all of that just yet. And so having these conversations with a partner of, like, what does feel good to you? Do you want, you know, do you want me to help you kind of talk through it or not? So I think, yeah, that's just something to be mindful of. Because I think it can be quite respectful actually for the introvert to bring something and say, I don't need to. I don't need to discuss the details, just wanted to let you know. And then the extroverts just say, yeah, thanks for telling me. It doesn't need to be more than that and to respect how each person processes.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it goes a long way and it's totally possible. And I think there is a, you know, there is a kind of natural, energetic exchange or polarity that you know, can kind of happen between introverts and extroverts. That can be a positive thing. And it's just important to know, you know, you can't drag. Drag your opposite into your corner to be your way all the time. And that these little. Some of these little tips are just the little bridges that let us kind of connect over that divide, so to speak.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And so this kind of brings us to our next. The next set of things I want to address, which is friendships and amount of social stimulation. So I think that Covid was really challenging for a lot of people and perhaps especially extroverts. I think the amount of social stimulation that I need is higher than my introverted partners, or it has been. And my experience of introverted partners is that they kind of pick their team. They're kind of like, these are the two or three people I'm really close with, and I just kind of want to hang out with them a lot. And I don't really need a lot more than that. And so in my experience, I need to be close with my partner. I also need other stimulation, other social support, friendships, events, things like that. And what I've witnessed is that it can be challenging when, let's say, an extroverted partner wants to bring their introverted partner to all the things and is really excited about that and then potentially resentful when said introverted partner doesn't want. Want to go to all the things. And so we've mentioned this several times, but I would just reiterate, it's really important that as a couple, you are embedded in a wider community and that you're able to have lots of sources of connection because that's a recipe for disaster. An introverted partner and an extroverted partner, or the extroverted partner wants the introvert to come to lots of things. That's not going to work out that well for anyone involved. And that can lead, that can lead to fights, right? That can lead to conflict. Because it can feel like, right, if, if, if I'm inviting my partner and he's like, I don't really want to go to the office party with you. I want you to go and have fun. And she feels like, well, that means you don't care about me. That, you know, that gets into dangerous territory because it really isn't about whether he cares or not. There's, there's something he's trying to communicate about energy bandwidth, his ability to recharge. You know, there's, there's, there's something happening on that side. And I'm curious to hear your experience. In my experience, in my experience, introverts who don't get enough alone time or sort of quiet time, I would say, whether or not their loved one is in the room, just sort of quiet time. Introverts who don't get enough quiet time become irritable and resentful. And I'm curious, have you ever had that experience of someone wanting to take you to lots of things or do lots of things and you having to slow that down and name. If I go to all those things, if I do all that stuff and don't have time to recharge, I'm going to be a grump.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think I'd never necessarily had a partner calling me to do that. But part of my journey, like I said, was there was a time I was kind of pushing myself to do that and had to discover that the painful way just firsthand that, okay, trying to do too much of this just doesn't work for me. And then, yeah, like I just don't feel good. It's just such a interesting, um, you know, I feel like I just need to be plugged into the wall a couple times by myself every now and then. And if I'm not, it just gets even more fatiguing to be out. And then that just kind of has a downward spiral pretty fast. And so, you know, having to learn to self care in that and not push myself too hard with these types of things was really key. And you know, in a strange way, one way I did learn about this was as well, was one of my previous partners was even more introverted than me, which kind of gave me the experience of being the extroverted one in an, in an odd way, in that, you know, there were times that, you know, with like a certain click of people or something, okay, I'm like out and I'm enjoying and I'm just going deep with these people. And then it was like too much for her and then I could feel her energy dropping down and then that would stressed me out because then I was torn between like taking care of her and going home and being in what I wanted to be with the group. And that was fatiguing for both of us. So I feel like I kind of got the experience of maybe being a slightly more extroverted partner in that. The other strange thing about that dynamic, which, you know, maybe something that happens to introvert, introvert couples was then if I did need to even take space from her, though she was even introverted More introverted than me. So if one of the tensions we got into was if I needed to take space, that really did feel like a rejection for her because then there was kind of nowhere else for her to go. So even in an introvert introvert, we sometimes had trouble negotiating our space needs. And the fact that, yes, sometimes I just needed to be a home alone and not be in relationship at all, and creating those kind of moments for myself has become really critical for my ongoing health and well being.

Melanie Curtin: I mean, that speaks to a fundamental aspect of codependence, which is I'm not really okay unless were relating or an aspect that can be a bit codependent as well as a primary tension. I think that a lot of our men have faced and that I think our work together has helped them sort of create a breakthrough around. You know, I'm remembering a client who was really brave in a dating relationship he was in. And actually I think they had plans. He had plans to hang out on a Thursday or Friday. And he texted her or called her or something and said, I'm noticing I really need a night to myself. And I'm wondering if it's okay if we hang out over the weekend instead or whatever it was. But that was the first time he had ever kind of spoken to that need of I need a night off. Like, I need a night to myself. And that's a really scary message to send. I think a lot of us have a lot of tension around asking for or asserting our need for space in a relationship. Because, yeah, we're afraid of the response. We're afraid that the person is going to say, okay, fine, I guess you don't want to hang out with me. Like, they'll either pout or sulk or, you know, rage, but there'll be some kind of punishment that we get on the other side of asking for what we actually need, which is space. And I think that's one of the reasons why actually being mindful of this dynamic, you know, introversion, extroversion and needs based on that is a big deal. Because if you. If you take it personally, right? If you're. If your person says, I need a night to myself, and you're. And you feel threatened and you take it personally, what you hear is, I don't want to hang out with you. I don't want to hang out with you. And that's. That can be really triggering. If you take it as, I need to recharge my batteries so that I can hang out with you and be fully present, that's a totally different thing. And you're like, oh, no problem, go ahead, do your thing. Because you're not taking it as rejection. And I think that's something again similar to that dynamic of I want my partner to come with me to all the things. Well, they might. There's. That there's going to be a cost to that. And it's good to know that you can be selective about the things that you really want that partner to show up to and understand that it's actually a gift. It can be a gift to your introverted partner to even potentially be on their team in terms of like, hey, do you need a night off? Like, are you feeling? How are you feeling? Do you want to maybe not go to that thing this weekend with me? I can go with a girlfriend or kind of checking in and seeing where they are on their need for space, I think can be a tremendous act of love. And you spoke earlier to the experience of extroverts who aren't getting enough social time. And in my experience as an extrovert, I don't always notice that. I don't always notice that I haven't been socializing enough. But what I do notice is I get sad. I kind of wilt. Like, if you think of me as a flower, I'm just sort of a sadder flower and I'm wilting. And I haven't identified that that's part of why. But I think it could be an act of love to say like, hey, have you seen your friends lately? Or how much social time have you been getting? Because I'm not always necessarily. I mean, I'm pretty self aware. I have a sense of it. But I'm someone, for example, who works from home. And so there can be days where I don't see anyone or where I don't meaningfully interact with anyone for a while. And that's when I get sad and wilt. And I think that that's something that a partner could notice and sort of speak to. Because it's not great for an extrovert to spend lots of time alone. It doesn't really help their system. And I think that's generally true for a lot of human beings. We're not. We were meant to live together. We're social animals. You would never put a monkey in an apartment and leave it alone for days and expect it to be okay. It's not going to be okay. Like, human beings are not meant to live that way. But that's, I think, a way that we can. A way that we can love each other. I think that's where I'm going with this. There's a way that being genuinely aware of your own needs and your partner's needs and being on the same team around those can help depersonalize the sting of. I kind of need a night off. I need a night to just. I just need a night to myself and. And. And actually be supportive of your partner in that instead of. Of having that be threatening.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I, you know, I. It reminds me of a man I've been in circle with before who was kind of the flip. So he was the extrovert and his partner heavily introverted. And, you know, one of those things that as they got committed and moved in with each other, he kind of forgot. Right. He actually lost touch with that because he was so, like, devoted to her and wanting to take care of her, and she just didn't like doing some of the things he used to do, like, it wasn't her jam. And it caused him a tremendous amount of suffering. And it actually took him a while to realize it, like, what you were just saying, like, he had wilted and kind of forgotten that. Ah, actually, there's a reason, and it's not even necessarily just because of my relationship. Right. It felt like, oh, my. Is this. Right Relationship or things going on in. I remember we were talking with him, and it was just like, oh, well, just part of your personality is, like, you get refreshed and rejuvenated by interacting with lots of people. Like, it's. It's. That's just it. And I remember one of the things he negotiated with his partner over time. This was before COVID was. He had, like, a scheduled night every month. He would go and DJ a small house party where he got to go out and just kind of be in his energy and, you know, be at the front of the room and talking to everyone. And that one night actually charged his tank quite a bit, and he got to kind of just be himself there. And his, you know, his partner was stoked that she didn't have to go and she could just stay home those nights and not have to, like, try to make him happy while she was there by pretending to be into it, if that makes sense. Like, they both kind of gave themselves permission that, oh, we don't have to do everything together all the time. This is a great example of I can kind of go do my thing once a month, and then, you know, in other weeks, we can do some nights at home with just you, and then we can kind of do more hybrid stuff that's maybe a little smaller scale where we both each get a little bit of our needs met. And it's really just about finding those, you know, those concoctions or that exact kind of medicine you each need. And it just takes some experimenting. You know, I think one thing sometimes, I think people forget about introverts too is, you know, even when I need to replug and be introverted, that actually doesn't necessarily mean I have to be alone. Like it works for me sometimes to just be in the room with other people, but just not having feeling the pressure to have to engage. And so, you know, there's times where my wife and I'll just be in the same room together. So there's, you know, there's connection in the sense we're there, but it's not about the connection in that moment. Like she's just giving me permission to just kind of be in my little introvert bubble, which is great. I love it.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I would, I would just second that in terms of my experience with introverted male partners is that they don't necessarily need to be alone to recharge, but they need to be able to be puttering. That's the word that I like to use. They need to be able to just kind of do their thing, be in their space, not be thinking about someone else's needs or interacting or talking. Really a lot of it's talking. They don't need to be talking to someone talk, just doing their own thing, puttering around. They don't have to be alone. But there's a certain level of sort of low key beingness. Low key beingness is kind of how I would put it. And I'm pretty mindful of introverts in my life. I remember an experience with my sister where it was a graduation weekend and so there were just a lot of events. She was graduating. I think it was grad school and there were just a lot of events. There were the school events and then there was the family dinner and then there was the da da. And it was like a two or three day extravaganza. And by day three I was thinking to myself, oh, the volcano is going to blow. Right like that. I knew her pretty well and I've had this experience with other introverts where if they don't get that time to recharge, there can be like the irritability that, that, that comes. And I remember sort of being like, okay, let's give her some space. Like let's let her Take a nap or do something where we are all out of the room so that she doesn't have to go there. And I think that's, that's kind of one of those things that you, if you're, if you're doing relationship well, consciously, mindfully, you do get to know each other in that way. So the example of, you know, the house party, that's such a great concrete example of like, okay, what is this actually going to look like? How are we going to. How are we going to do this? And I think that the, the whole idea of secure attachment, if you actually look at the origin of it like a securely attached child to a parent, a securely attached child is not interfacing with the parent all the time. A securely attached child. The parent is there at the playground and the child is off exploring, it's off doing things. But if it falls down, gets hurt, that parent is there, it knows that there's a safe, secure home base, but it's not constantly. They're not constantly interacting. And I think that's how safe, healthy relationship can be too. It's not that we're constantly together interacting all the time. That's codependence. But we, we can each feel free to go be ourselves fully expressed. Because that was one of the things I heard in that is he got to fully express a part of himself at the party, right? He got to be social also kind of the center of attention in a way, in his element with the music. Just a lot of needs being met, a lot of expression needs being met at the same time. And then he could go home and his partner was, was happy for him. She wasn't resentful that he was spending time away or pouting or subtly punishing him or, you know, any of the other number of ways that we express our displeasure when we feel rejected or abandoned. But that, that, that can be. That was a source of connection for them, right? She got to stay home and read a book or whatever it was that she got to do, and he got to go do his thing and then they came back into connection. That's secure attachment. It's not that secure attachment is not we do everything together all the time. It's. We do some things together, we feel deeply connected and we each get to be fully expressed in the world, however that looks. And I think that's something that can be missed of what secure attachment actually is because securely attached children are out doing things and exploring and they're coming back to mom and dad as a safe home base. Not Constantly with mom and dad, totally.

Jason Lange: Both of those things are so true. And the example of my friend or the experiences I've had is I've been able to cultivate. That is the cool thing about it then is whether it's whatever the configuration is as you start to understand each other and realize, oh, them doing their thing isn't a rejection of me, it's just self care, right? It's self care for them. It's kind of what they need. What it allows then is each partner to do what they need to do to get energized and then bring that energy back to the relationship fueled. Rather than feeling like, well, I have to get all my energy from the relationship, which is almost a struggle, then if you're not quite lined up in those ways versus, like, they both came back to connection that night in abundance.

Melanie Curtin: Right.

Jason Lange: He was full. He got to bring that fullness of his presence and energy into the relationship. And she was too, you know, books and baths and just kind of in her thing. So that reconnection actually was like a generative thing that they sourced in that. In that the example of secure attachment with kids is so, you know, it's so true. Like, I think of it as kind of like a yo yo. You know, I can see it with my daughter and I can see it in materials we learned about parenting and watching videos where, yeah, like, you know, it's not that securely attached kid is right there on mom and dad. Not at all. They kind of like go out and go away, but then they at least look back and like make a little eye contact. If not, just come say hi or something and then run away again. It's like the yo yo goes out and then it comes back and it goes out and it comes back and it's just those little touch points is actually all it needs because there's that secure foundation to know, well, if there's a problem, I could come back in a more full way, but as long as I kind of know you're there, it's cool. Can kind of be out and doing my thing. And I think that's a. A key component to understanding how to create that secure attachment in your relationship is. Yeah. Leading some of these discussions around, you know, what's your partner's unique kind of mix of social and alone time needs and what are yours and where do they overlap in beautiful ways? Where are they Pretty different in beautiful ways, right? In terms of like, yeah, that's not my jam, you can definitely go do that. Or yeah, you know, I'M willing to be with you on that sometimes, but not every time. And you can just really start to stitch that together as a, as a partnership, as a couple, to thrive, really.

Melanie Curtin: Absolutely. And to have those discussions be open and ongoing is important and self awareness is important. I think that, you know, a lot of the men that we worked with have developed a lot more of their masculine power in, in our work. And some of that has been, to your point, really owning, this is who I am and these are my needs. This is, this is really who I am and these are my needs. And here's how I express those to you, right. In relationship. And instead of sort of sublimating them, right, like, oh, I don't really need that alone time. It's okay, I'll go to this event because it's important to you. No, actually understanding that you do need a night off and being able to express that is power, in my opinion. That's power. Power isn't dominance over, it's the deep knowing of your being and being able to express that and move, move in that way in the world. I think that's something that I've been really proud of. A lot of our clients around is their ability to actually start to really own who they are. And as they do that, then they're able to express it, communicate it, talk about it. But it starts with that inner knowing. And to your point, just checking in with oneself, being out and about and saying, you know what? I really don't want to be here anymore. That's my truth. I want to go home. I'm going to go home instead of, well, I should stay out because they, because they want me to or because it would be better for me or, you know, I think that, that, that what you spoke to Jason about, like, I should be out being social because that's how I'll meet someone. I, I definitely have heard some of our clients say things like that where they maybe are on the dating apps, but they're also feeling like, I kind of want to meet someone organically in person. And that requires, you know, going out. And something that we've talked about, which I think is worth mentioning is there's lots of ways to meet people and going out, you know, to the club or going out.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally.

Melanie Curtin: Only one way of doing that. There are, for example, meetup groups around hiking or kayaking or, you know, stand up paddleboarding or whatever kind of thing that you want to do in your city on weekends during the day. It doesn't have to be going out to bars. I think a lot of us culturally think, like, going out means this one thing. And honestly, that's not really the best way to meet people. It's a way to meet people, but it's not necessarily the best way to meet people. Especially in terms of what you said of it's really hard to hear people. It's kind of harder to connect in a way in that kind of environment.

Jason Lange: So, yeah, and it attracts a certain kind of person, right. Like if you're an extrovert, like, I know extroverts who just love the loud energy and music and all the people, you know, a bar or scene, which is totally fine, but again, it's just kind of becoming aware of, you know, what's right for you in that, you know, one of the reasons, you know, I, I think it's so beneficial to do this work too, is it starts attracting you to other places to go out. Right. So one of the things we talk to a lot of our clients about, as you start doing this kind of work and getting into personal growth and transformation, you're going to be attracted to different spaces, which generally allow for different types of relating as well and attract different kinds of people. So, you know, as an introvert, I didn't meet my wife out at a social event, but it was a social event that was, like, really specific and mindful and thoughtful and deep. Right. So it was kind of great. It was the best of both worlds for us. So I think, yeah, it's so key what you're saying, saying of, like, you don't have to just force yourself to go out into those big environments, but part of the creativity in learning about yourself is discovering the other environments and then also just giving yourself permission to have time off. Right. One of our recent graduates, I remember one of his celebrations one week was he's a little bit more extroverted. Right. He likes going out. But even as an extrovert, he checked in with himself one day and he's like, I'm just really tired. He works really hard. He kind of has a night shift job in the care industry. And he just noticed, like, yeah, I actually think it would be better for me to stay in tonight. And he took a Saturday night and just stayed into himself. And he was so lit up and fueled by that and rested that he was able to go into his week in a different way. And I thought that was just a really interesting, interesting example even of an extroverted guy who just had to learn to, like, check in with himself and sometimes. Okay, yeah, I don't always have to be out, out, out, out. And sometimes recharging a little bit is going to let me go out even more in different. Different areas.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thanks for speaking to that. Because I've also had that experience as an extrovert that I. I still need alone time. It's, you know, it's one of those polarity things of introverts need extroverted time and extroverts need introverted time. It's not that we don't, it's just the ratio of how much we need. But I know, especially when I'm processing, emotional processing, that journaling helps me and that's definitely an alone activity. Sometimes I need to just listen to an audiobook and color and not be around anyone, not be dealing with input. That's kind of something that, that comes up for me is dealing with input. Because I think a lot of my. Because I am an extrovert, I have a lot of friends, I keep in touch with a lot of people. And so any. At any point during my day, there are, I'm. There are many connections that I'm maintaining, especially on my device. Right. With different texting and voxer and everything. People from different areas of my life, different stages in a way that I do not see my introvert friends. You know, we've had discussions about it. Like, I have a lot of connections and I maintain a lot of connections and I think that's pretty consistent for a lot of extroverts. And so sometimes I just need time away from my device, from input, to just be. And that's, you know, it's not that extroverts never need that. It's just a different ratio.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And that it makes me think of one last thing that I mean, I just, I know myself as an introvert, but just going to put out there as an example too of I do like socializing and I do like being with people. Part of what I've also found is that as an introvert, like, I need transition time. So it, like, I am not the kind that it works really well for someone to just show up at my house or like call me in the middle of the day. It's not that I don't want to do that, but like I need some warning, like to kind of start to prepare for that and some kind of, I don't know, mental gear shift or something is something I've noticed. It's not that I don't want it. I'm also just a little less open to impromptu connecting, particularly in real time. If. But you can get around that by giving me a little bit of warning, like, hey man, are you around sometime this afternoon? Would it be possible? You know, then I'm like, okay, I can feel where that would slot into my day and you know, how I can rest before and after that and whatnot. So it works for me. And I do need that kind of connection. I think what you're saying about you just got to all find your own medicine and learn the right ratio for yourself is so, so key.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thanks for speaking to that transition time too, because that's something that comes up in a lot of material about couples and relating and transitioning from work to home. And I was talking to someone who identifies as an introvert and he was saying that sometimes in relationship he has felt that he had to defend his time, which. Sort of mindful of that word, defend. But particularly around transitioning from the work week to the weekend and just having an evening to himself to just, to just be right before. Lots of connection over the weekend. And especially in a kind of high connection job where you're interacting with lots of people as an introvert, you're definitely going to need some transition time there. And that's one of those things that as a couple moves through the world, moves through different ways of being. I remember an extroverted woman friend of mine, her husband was an introvert and he worked with people for a long time and then he. And then they sort of switched. Like she was working from home and he was working with people and they switched. She started working with people and he started working from home. And I think he also went down from full time to part time. And so they had this funny moment where, you know, she used to come home and he would need all this time to transition and then she would come home and he was like a puppy, totally ready to connect because he didn't have. He had had very little social time during the day. And they had to kind of figure out like, oh, you know, is that okay with her? Like how, you know, how does that work? But that there are going to be shifts in your relationship as a couple over time. And one of those has to do with like, how much connection are you getting on a daily basis through work and how much transition time do you need? Because that's real. The transition, the transition time thing is real and it doesn't even need to be that long. But 20 or 30 minutes can make all the difference in terms of the rhythm of the evening and how well it goes. Connecting Versus one person starts chattering right when the other walks through the door and they're like, they're not ready. And it's not a great, sometimes not a great scene.

Jason Lange: 100%. So right again, just learning some of these small strategies and tips and tactics and even learning how to talk about it. I think that's one of the things that's so important about having an episode like this is these dynamics are often at play, but we don't necessarily think of how deeply they can impact the well being of our relationship. Just like, oh, he's just a little more introverted or she's a little more introverted. But this stuff can have repercussions if we're not mindful of it. And then as we learn, you know, what works for our partner, it also becomes easier for us to support them in that and you know, do the gifting and kind of generous thing. We're like, yeah, you know, I want you to go have a night out with your ladies tonight. Like just go have fun, like go do all the big crazy stuff, go dancing, whatever, or yeah, you know, I, I got you a bath and bottle of wine and I'm going to leave because I think that's what you need tonight. Right? Like you can start to create and kind of craft those experiences for each other which can be so generous and then, you know, can really hit you in the heart as the receiver of when like a partner is really willing to kind of create that for you. Whether it's extroverted space or introverted space.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that feels like love. Like you know who I am and you care about my needs and you know, you. Yeah, you see me. You see me.

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. As we start to wrap up here, I think I would say that one of my, yeah, one of, one of the best parts of. I think the work that we have done with clients for me is actually seeing them to your point, being brave and leaning in to these kinds of conversations. I can't tell you how many times, you know, we've gotten on a call and a man has said like, yeah, I brought that thing up with the woman I'm dating and it went really well. She was really receptive to it. She appreciated that I, that I spoke to it. And I think that's been one of my favorite things is just watching men that are stepping into their power, just leading, just genuinely leading in relationship, whether it's casual dating or deeper, you know, marriage, marriage relating. I just got an email today about that of this man was brave and he brought up some things about sex with his partner. And it went really well, and she was receptive. And it's like this whole world is opening up to him that I think is. Is possible. Right. Of. Whoa. I didn't even know. I didn't even know that leading could get me there. Right. I just thought. I don't. I'm not sure. I thought we would never talk about this stuff. And it's like, if you're leading, you know, there's just a lot more possibility. And. And it can be really exciting. And I think a lot of us weren't raised in homes with very much emotional leading or dialogue in that way. And so it really is like, holy shit, this is a whole new world. There's a lot more possible here than I. Than I even anticipated.

Jason Lange: And that leadership can happen whether you're an extrovert or an introvert.

Melanie Curtin: That's right.

Jason Lange: That's the beautiful thing. Being able to learn the tools for that conversation will actually give you more resources to be able to get what you need, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert. You know, that's just the key to stepping into these leadership positions and opening these conversations up, which are likely going to serve your partner as well, too.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. And lead to intimacy, emotional and physical. I think that's an important part of. I think most of the clients that we working with, they. They're looking for that. They want closeness. They're looking for intimacy. They want. They want that with either the person they're already with or with someone they're looking for. Right. Is genuine closeness. Authentic, authentic, real closeness, not distance. So, yeah, if you are interested in going deeper than the podcast, you can take our free training at Evolutionary Men Slash Training. And you can always get me directly@dearmen podcastmail.com. Sam.