202: ‘Our sex life isn’t working, but other things in the relationship are. What do we do?’ | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Yeah, one. A couple different places. One of the first I want to start with is what I think is actually a fairly, in some ways predictable and normal trajectory for a lot of traditional monogamous, married, hetero relationships. That's oftentimes the getting together, getting committed and Having kids and it's like the relationship just kind of stops. Two people get along day to day and instead of being lovers, they over time just become more and more managing life together, managing the kids, managing appointments, managing our mortgage, who's working, doing this, doing that. And it's like all that kind of polarity and connection between them two as individuals, independent of the family system or whatever kind of goes to the wayside.

Melanie Curtin: The couple itself. I know one of the things we've heard is we're just roommates. I've heard from countless men, right?

Jason Lange: We've heard that from countless guys we've worked with. And I've heard that from even more men who were raised in that. So one of the very common things I hear on some of the calls I first do with guys who are interested in working with us is. Yeah, how frequent that is. Where, you know, I don't know, we had a good family life. You know, my parents were nice to each other. And then as we dig in, it's like, yeah. And you know, did they. Did they have any intimacy or passion? And it's like, no, they were just two people in the same house getting along. Which doesn't mean things obviously weren't happening sometimes behind the scenes. But it wasn't modeled to them, which then our nervous systems absorb. I think a lot of the men that come to us didn't have that modeled for them and then kind of replay the same thing in their relationships.

Melanie Curtin: A lot of times there's something really heartbreaking about they were kind of just two people in the same house that feels really lonely. There's a way that, that feels really lonely. And that warm, gooey, sticky, fun, flirty, happy connection feels totally lacking. And one of the things I've often been surprised by, and we've discussed this before, is how much men will tolerate in terms of their. Their misery level. Just going to put it out there. You know, there are men that we talk to and we'll ask them how long they've. How long it's been like this and they'll say things like, oh, you know, 12 years. And I'm thinking you've gone through over a decade of, of loneliness and just disconnection and that, that sense of just being, just managing things with this person but not really having and. Or even maybe feeling judged by that person or. Right. Criticize.

Jason Lange: Super common.

Melanie Curtin: Not just a neutral energy, but a sort of like, I can feel her disapproval. I can. Or I can feel her disappointment or I can kind of feel her resentment or her you know, just. It's not working. And neither of us is addressing that head on. And, you know, a lot of the places. I mean, the whole reason we're doing this episode is because one of the main places this will show up is in a couple's sex life, right. They're not having sex. And one of the things I think we've heard a lot is sort of like, my wife doesn't really want to have sex with me anymore, or I feel like I'm kind of rejected a lot. Right. I'm trying. I'm trying to have sex with her and she doesn't want it. And it can be really confusing. Can be confusing, and it can just feel like fog. And then sort of, you know, a lot of the men it seems that we worked with before they worked with us had sort of given up in a way. There was a way that they had sort of this resigned energy around it. And we've seen, you know, transformation in a number of ways through this pattern. But, yeah, can you speak a little bit to that, that sense that you've gotten, the felt sense that you've gotten from the men in this position?

Jason Lange: Yeah, for some of them, it is kind of. It's almost like a defeated energy. Just like, what's the point? And so there's just like, this is kind of the way it is, which can be a really hard place for them to be in. And then, yeah, others, it's. It's sometimes even worse than that where it's. They're. They're kind of. They experience shame for it, that they, you know, that they still want to have sex. Why do you need sex, like, all the time? You know, that kind of thing, which then can often have them kind of collapse in on themselves even. Even more than that, you know, related to this in this kind of area as well. And this is an area where sometimes us men have our part, we play in that of, you know, not to put it the wrong way, but it's like not putting in the work to create the environment for romance or turn on or literally making the time for that kind of thing, I think, is one of the things that some of the guys we've started to work with and worked with over time are able to kind of bring it back. That it's like, oh, you know, yes, some. Some of their wives do kind of shame them and, you know, they're working through their own things. Others, it's. It's not like they don't want that. It's just they can't Go straight to that at the end of the day when you're just sitting in the bed and you haven't had connection beforehand. Right. Doesn't necessarily feel as good or open them in a way. And so there's a lot for men to kind of work on in this area which is I think one of the most important skills we need for long term relationship in that, you know, one of the stories I often tell is the, what I call the X cross of relationship. That when you start out, when you meet someone, lots of polarity, which in another way is there's lots of difference, there's lots of unknown, there's lots of novelty hormonally, story wise, connection wise, lots of turn on because you don't know someone. I don't know what is it like when I make love to them like this or this or in this environment or at this part of the day. And little attachment, little healthy attachment in terms of knowing each other, having bonded, built a lot of trust, built the sameness. And then as relationships progress, progress, it's like the level of polarity naturally or difference goes down. We start moving in with each other. We've heard each other's stories, we know each other's families, we kind of know what each other do in bed. Like some of that novelty isn't there by default anymore, let me just put it that way. And then our attachment starts going up. So we've built more connection with each other. We're sometimes moving in together, we have shared friends, sometimes we're working from home with each other. Oh, it's just a weekday, I'm not going to dress up, we're just hanging out. And at some point as that goes up and polarity goes down, they cross. Usually what I would kind of call after the honeymoon phase of the relationship, whether you literally are getting married or not. And then it's a whole different ballgame where there's so much sameness. But then a lot of people don't have the training, which is something, you know, we really work hard with our guys on, of how to recreate that chemistry, that attraction, that polarity long term because it doesn't automatically happen after a certain amount of time. Like, yeah, maybe like the weather, sometimes it just syncs up with the both of you. But if you're not consciously putting intention on that, it's, it'll, it literally will just evaporate. Like the, you know, dry is kind of the, like a relationship will just dry up and two people kind of pull that energy totally into themselves.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I'm thinking of one of our clients who will call Mitch for. For confidentiality purposes. And when he came to us, you know, I think there was a dynamic with his wife where he was often kind of waiting or asking permission of her for things, like, hey, do you want to do this? Should we do this?

Jason Lange: And.

Melanie Curtin: And they're not conscious of this. This isn't.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's not like.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I'm thinking of a couple where he is on the spectrum and he has some limited, limited capacity that he knows about. He knows he has certain limitations when it comes to conn. Connection and attunement and empathy and all of that. And she made a comment once, she said, I just feel like he's another one of my kids. Like he's another person I have to take care of. And it doesn't feel like I ever get taken care of. And it's so fascinating because, not to put too fine a point on it, but several of us sort of were like, well then why don't you leave? Like, what is your role in this? So I guess I also see in this pattern the reverse polarity, the sort of passive man who attracts an aggressive Woman. I'm just going to put it out there. I've seen that many times. Passive man, aggressive woman. And the aggressive woman has her own stuff going on, right? It's like in any relationship dynamic and we've seen this definitely in our men, where as a man grows and steps into his power, that woman has a choice. At that point, she has a choice. She might not want to learn to soften, she might not want to become a different version of herself. She might not want to grow. And that's not going to work. That relationship isn't going to work anymore. And not every relationship is meant to last forever. If two people aren't growing together, a lot of times that relationship is meant to dissolve. And I think that that's what's so hard and risky about that, that question. Our sex life isn't working, but other things are. What do we do? Because what we've seen repeatedly, especially with people who are parents, is, well, shit, our sex life isn't working, but we're co parenting really well and should we stay together for the kids? And I would just reference any of you listening who have that question on your heart to listen to the episode we did specifically on should we stay together for the kids. I don't remember what number it is, but if you Google it, you'll find it. And I'm thinking of another man, another client of ours, who we'll call, I don't know, tj, who was married when he started working with us and kind of had this question on his heart of I do want a sex life, right? Like, I'm not satisfied. I do want more than this. And I'm completely torn because we co parent really well. You know, we are like in work together kind of thing. And it took a long time, but he eventually did transition out of that marriage. And man, he is thriving in terms of his dating life, his sex life. There really is a lot of life on the other side. And I think that it can feel intimidating when you're in it. When you're just. You're still in it. It just can feel impossible. Like, oh my God, where would I, you know, where would I live? How often would I see the kids? Like, what all. There's so much. It feels like there's so much risk. And the hint I'll give you from the other episode we did on should you stay together for the kids? Is you think there's less risk in staying, but there's actually a lot of risk to what you're role modeling for your children. There's a lot of risk. There's way more risk than you think in staying put versus taking the quote, unquote risk of, you know, possibly transitioning out of the marriage. And I think that's part of what's so transformative for so many of our men is just getting in a community where there are other men who have been in that position and are now on the other side to kind of actually talk to and. And feel into their experience and have a sense of, oh, my God, wow, you're. You really made it. You really made it. You know, and your kids are thriving too, right? There's so much loyalty and love that I see in our clients around their children of just, they want to make sure the kids are okay. They don't want to abandon the kids. And that friction between. God, you know, is my sex life even worth jeopardizing this thing I have? And I just. I really want to say yes, because it's not just about your sex life. It's your aliveness. It's your aliveness. It's your fire. It's your. It's. There's so much wrapped up in that part. And for most of the men we work with, I think you can speak to this a little bit. It's not just about the sex. Right. It's about the sex, but it's really about the love and the intimacy and the closeness and the connection that most of our men are craving when they're talking about their sex lives.

Jason Lange: Yeah, the vitality, energy, connection, intimacy. It shows up in a lot of ways. That sex just happens to be one of the deepest channels for that. That can do a lot of heavy lifting in a relationship. When there's energy moving through that channel, it can really make a lot of other things easy. And when it's not, can make a lot of other things really hard. And the risk you were just sharing about staying together ties exactly into the point I came in with, of how many men we talked to that were raised in a household where their parents were just. And then suddenly they're recreating that relationship because they never felt or saw that energy model between their parents in any other way. So it becomes. It's still work. It's still a type of work they have to do. And so the last thing I just kind of want to say about this reverse polarity type that ways this shows up, and there's lots of different ways we work with guys, and it shows up in each guy slightly different. One of them is, yeah, you know, oftentimes in long term marriages or families, women are doing the emotional labor, they're doing the labor with the kids, they're doing the labor on the house. And that doesn't necessarily leave them with a lot of juice for relating energetically, sexually opening things like that. So that's one area where guys can really kind of step forth of like, yeah, I don't want to be another kid. I want to help you manage the kids. Right. And if I want to have sex with you, one of the best ways to do that is to make sure you're relaxed in your body and not stressed out. What's going to support that? Can I step in and even give more in some of these other areas? So we're co holding that load. It may never be even, but at least there's a little bit more shared.

Melanie Curtin: And it doesn't have to be. Again, it doesn't have to be incredibly elaborate. It can be. I'm hiring us a house cleaner once a month to do a deep clean of the kitchen and bathrooms. How does that sound? Right. Or I'm planning on. This is. This is a thing I'm considering. What do you think? How do you feel about that? Yeah, that's leading. It doesn't. You haven't necessarily made the decision, but I've noticed that this is something that's on your heart a lot. I'm not the neatest or tidiest person I want to contribute here. It doesn't have to be you cleaning. It can be. This is what I'm looking at doing. How does that feel for you? She might be like, oh my God, that would be amazing. Like, that would be. It would be so much easier for us to keep things clean if someone else is doing a deep clean once a month. Let's time it at this time or whatever. And another example I think I was, because I teach a course for couples and I'm working with a couple and one of the things we were talking about was meal prep and planning. So meal prep and cooking. Right, Cooking. Actually cooking the meals. Because especially when you're cohabitating, it's every single day. You got to eat every single day. And she had been taking on like a lot of that load. And so one thing I suggested was another way to lead is to say, hey, I want to get us blue apron or one of these meal services twice a week. So twice a week a box shows up and it already has all the ingredients. Because planning a meal isn't just about cooking the meal. It's also, do we have what we need. Do I need to run to the store? There's a lot of mental load that I think you just eloquently spoke to that I think a lot of women are holding for a household. That has been true for a long time. It is still true in many households. It's not just about that one situation. It's not just about the cooking. It's about all the prep. Before that moment, there was this article. Talking about clearing off the kitchen table isn't just clearing off the kitchen table. It's where does this go and why? Where does this go and why? And that takes a lot of mental effort. It's not just putting things away. It's. This is a bill that needs to be paid. It has to go over here, or et cetera. You get the idea. And I think that was. That hadn't occurred to, you know, necessarily occurred to the man in the relationship. Oh, that's a way I can lead is to say, because in some relationships, you know, financial resources are tight and some they're not, and so everyone's situation is different. But I think that kind of thing of where can I lead? Where can I show up more, bigger, fuller, or even, like, asking and engaging in that is leading. You know what I mean? Like, leading doesn't have to look like. It's not dominating. And I think that's a thing that a lot of men sort of are intimidated. Oh, like me leading. What does that mean? It doesn't mean dominating. It doesn't mean aggression. It means holding energy and space and attention around something and saying, what's needed here and where can I provide? What's needed here? Where can I provide? It's direction. It's, it's. It's something that when you are in touch with your masculine power, you naturally do provide. Right. It seems to me like a lot of men that I know, they want to be doing that. And to your point about training, I think a lot of our men have made comments going through the program. They're like, wow, this is a lot easier than I was expecting. Like. Like, they start leading, especially our sort of single man or men who are dating or men who are divorced now back on the dating market. They're leading on dates, they're driving more, and they're like, this is a lot easier. This is a lot easier than I was expecting. And I'm getting way better results in less time. You know, it's just a different world. And it's like, yeah, because you're, because you're. You've got A polarity going now. And you're able to show up in this new way and that you, you know, it's kind of like what is it in chemistry? Two elements, right? We think, we think of ourselves as static and the other person is static. But really how we show up impacts how they show up and vice versa. So when you're driving and leading and holding space from the start, you're eliciting different responses from that person and you're building more trust with her. So everything else becomes easier too, right. You're leading harder conversations. You're being more brave in sharing how you're feeling or what you're wanting sexually. And she's responding well because you're bringing vulner and leading. Right. You're not waiting for her to bring things up or whatever. You're actually in the driver's seat. And that's been a really exciting and fun thing to witness in a lot of our men. Is like, wow, this is a lot easier than it used to be.

Jason Lange: Totally. And it's related to, I think oftentimes I see it's related to what we just talked about, that if the only source of your vitality in life is coming from having sex with your partner, it actually is like, almost like a vampiric need a fuck. I need this. Otherwise, I don't feel alive.

Melanie Curtin: I don't feel good or otherwise. I feel completely alone in the world.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: That's why men's groups are so important, because when you really get connected, really get connected to other men and you feel deeply seen and met, there is a part of you that feels soothed, that. That calms down, that doesn't come with all of that need to this one place because it actually knows it's got it elsewhere.

Jason Lange: Yes. And to kind of start to bring things to a close here. If you're a guy and your sex life isn't working. You just have a map there of three potential areas that might be the cause of it. But it's all going to start with being the one to lead the conversation about what's really going on and what my needs are, where I'm not feeling that. What's going on for you? What do you want? What do I want? And then, you know, there's different strategies and training that we certainly help men with that can help all three of those areas to different extent. But whatever it is, you. You can do a lot of work in the relationship by being the one to lead it and admit, like, hey, the way we're living isn't okay with me. I'm no longer okay with this. I do not want to live in a sexless marriage. And then to really have some frank conversations around what might be possible from there. And then, yeah, oftentimes putting in the work to get some training to learn some tools and skills for communicating and connection and bringing structure to all that, to see then what's possible and whether or not it'll be. Be sustainable long term.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I mean, I think that kind of wraps it up. So if you are interested in our work, which we mentioned several times on this episode, you can go to Evolutionary Men Slash Training and take our free training that's available whenever streaming. And you can always get me directly@dearmen podcastmail.com we'd love to hear your thoughts on this or anything else.