All right, I just wrapped up a conversation with Melanie Curtin on her show Dear Men, and we dove deep into a pattern I see all the time with guys. The white knight syndrome, this compulsion to rescue women who aren't actually available or ready for healthy relationship.
I got pretty vulnerable about my own history with this. There was a woman I dated who'd just moved to town, no job, no community, barely a place to live. And I jumped right in. Take my car, stay here, I'll fix everything. Classic rescuer move. I'd offer help when I wasn't even resourced myself, then get burnt out and resentful, even though I was the one choosing it. The kicker? I realized I needed her to need me to feel secure. That's codependency, man. I literally can't feel safe in the relationship unless she's dependent on me.
We talked about how this pattern often plays out for second stage men, guys whose caring side is really online but who've totally abandoned their own needs in the process. There's a seductive false polarity that happens when we're with someone whose life is more of a mess than ours. We get to feel like we have our shit together by contrast, but it's all a game. We're pumping ourselves up with false security instead of actually doing our work and moving towards wholeness.
The thing that changed everything for me? Men's work. Building a real container of connected brothers meant my intimate partner didn't have to be my only source of emotional nourishment. That reduced the vampiric urgency, the desperation to make any connection work at all costs. When your tank is getting filled by deep male friendships, you can actually see red flags clearly instead of ignoring them because you're terrified of being alone.
If this pattern sounds familiar, get some help. Find a coach, join a men's group, get around brothers who will call you on your shit. Because wholeness attracts wholeness, and you can't shortcut that work by trying to heal someone else.
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Jason Lange: There's so much more love available. The more we move towards wholeness and realize we don't have to do it all alone and that there's other people who legitimately can help us on the way. It's like, oh, okay, I don't have to follow some of these old patterns before. And I can step more into myself boldly.
Melanie Curtin: Hi, guys. Welcome to another episode of Dear Men. I'm very excited about this episode because I've been thinking a lot about how best to use this to serve men, how to use the podcast to really serve men. And one of the things that I want to kind of highlight and bring to the surface a bit more is the patterns that I see in my coaching with men, because I think that kind of bringing those to light more will help other guys if they're in the same situation. So I'm really excited to have my friend Jason Lange back. Welcome, Jason.
Jason Lange: So good to be back.
Melanie Curtin: And today we're talking about how to attract the right women and not the wrong ones. And this is not to say that certain women are right, like good people, and certain women are bad people, but the right women for you, the right fit for you, and the wrong fit for you. I know that in my work as a men's coach and as Jason and I run a men's program together called Pillars of Presence, in Pillars and in my own work and Jason's also run men's groups and said the same thing. We have seen the pattern that we're going to describe here over and over and over. And, Jason, I don't know if you want to briefly speak to when you first saw it or what you, like, when you remember being like, huh? I'm seeing this again and again and again. Before we sort of jump into the pattern, I'm curious to hear, like, when did you realize, like, this is a thing that happens a lot?
Jason Lange: Yeah, Like, I think with a lot of such patterns, I first noticed it outside of myself before realizing, oh, I think I've fallen prey to this myself as well. But it's really. It actually really started in some of the men's groups I've been hosting in la, where different guys come in and drop in week after week. And you learn pretty quickly. A lot. You can learn a lot about a person by them sharing about the context of their relationship.
Jason Lange: Addiction?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, addiction. Opioid addiction. Any kind of sort of. Oh, Another one was like, drug dealing. I knew a guy who had attracted a woman who was like, into drug dealing. Like, she looked great on the surface, but then there was like, all this shady stuff going.
Jason Lange: Um, and I would say, even in some sense, like, unavailable women who have just gone through tumultuous times in the sense of, like, really nasty breakups or divorces, or like, you know, still have an ex who is the kind of person who will show up with a bat or a gun or like crazy stuff like that where there's a heavy magnetism right away, but she's actually totally not available in a sense, because there's been no healing from the last relationship.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a really good one. Or I knew a guy who attracted a woman who was like, kind of between housing, like, she was sort of homeless, she had a job and everything. Like, she had some stability. But there was like, it's sort of what you said of some kind of extreme situation that made it that, like, amplified the drama, basically. Like, there was some drama that was coming with this, with this particular woman. So that's the pattern we're talking about. And I'm curious to hear, particularly from you, Jason, because you are a man. I'm curious, have you ever experienced this pattern personally? And if so, what did that look like?
Jason Lange: Yes, I definitely have. And I would say, you know, on a lighter version, I can say just there was a person I dated who had just moved to a town I was living in at the time. Right. And so there was. There was. There was a lot of uncertainty in her life because she didn't have a community yet, she didn't have a job yet. She barely had a place to Live yet. And there was a lot of instability around that. And so I stepped in, and it was like, oh, well, I know the town. I have a car. You can use it whenever you want, and you can stay here whenever you want. You know, like that there was me automatically starting to kind of show up with this. This pattern of, you know, what I call, or, you know, what we sometimes call is just like, the white knight is I can rescue. Totally make things easier for you. And what I started to notice was sometimes I would offer help when I didn't have it to give or I wasn't actually resourced myself. And that was kind of a smaller version of that, that predicated a longer relationship I was in with someone who kind of had an autoimmune disorder that was very challenging for her emotionally and physically and often required me to hold a lot of space for her discomfort. And it was really hard for her in many, many, many ways. And there were a number of times where I kind of went out of my way to try to make her feel better or take care of her in all kinds of different ways. And again, oftentimes when I had already gone past my limit.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I feel like what you just said is really critical because, you know, in the white knight scenario, it's like there's the damsel in distress, and you're the white knight coming to save her.
Jason Lange: Yes.
Melanie Curtin: We've talked about stage one, stage two, stage three, masculine and feminine on the podcast before. But I think that there's something that I just want to highlight about what you said, which is that there's a way that this white knight pattern is giving when you don't really have the resources to give. So it's overextending. It's providing support when you don't really have it all together yourself. And that's because I think it could be like, oh, well, you know, why wouldn't you give someone support? Like, why wouldn't you help a woman that's in trouble? We're not saying don't help women that are in trouble, but there's something about this pattern that we keep seeing over and over that has to do with overextending, which in a way is a little bit of self betrayal. Because it's like, you know, maybe you needed the car that weekend, and maybe there were things that you couldn't do because you had overextended and given your car away. Like, can you. Can you speak at all to that in your personal experience of what that felt like to overextend?
Jason Lange: Totally. I would often get burnt out and in my own way, I'd get resentful, even though I was the one choosing to do these things. And it would create a lot of tension. Tension in me in the sense that I would. You know, there almost always be a moment of like. Almost like kind of after taking a drug of coming back to myself and like, oh, my God. Holy shit. That was so far past what I was actually capable of doing at that time. Be it a financial. Financial help, emotional help, investment of time. Yeah. Just trusting someone with property sometimes, like, oh, yeah, no, you can take that or you can stay or you can come over whenever. You know, I won't be home.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Which. There's nothing wrong with that. But just looking back, sometimes it hadn't been earned yet. In terms of our mutual trust and really knowing each. It was just like, I will do anything to kind of. You know, it sounds kind of vampiric, but in some ways it was like, the more. The more quickly I could have someone become reliant on me, like, like almost vampiric in a sense. Like, oh, if she needs me, then this is going to work.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a really important thing you just said. If she needs me, then this is going to work. And. And also I think there's a seductive quality of like, if she needs me, then I'm important.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: She needs me, then I'm a man. Or if she needs me, then blank. There's some value that I feel like I've seen in a lot of the guys I've worked with of like the. Her needing me becomes a part of my worth. Right.
Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Which is different from, you know, I want to be with you. Right. Because a stable, A more stable woman, a healthier woman, she's going to need help sometimes, but it's not going to be like that. It's not going to feel like that, and it's not going to be that. All of your worth and value comes from her needing you. Because a lot of the time she's going to be okay. She's not going to need you all of the time. Versus almost like a. This is our established pattern. I need, you need, need, need. And you provide to me.
Melanie Curtin: Yes, I think that's the, I think that's a good word to bring in because I think that that word and the concept of codependence is misunderstood. But I think that's what it boils down to, which is I need you. And then the other person is, I need you to need me. Yes, I need you to need me. I need you to need me. Because that's part of where my feeling of self worth comes from, which is not the same thing as we are interdependent. Like you said, there's more of an exchange in a codependent scenario. Often it's, it's, it's a more one sided feeling. So in the case of you and your ex who maybe had health problems, it might have often been you caretaking her, so she needed you and you were often providing things to her. And you know, the other thing I would throw out here is to come back to that concept of resentment that you brought up. I have found that to be extremely, extremely consistent in a lot of the men that I've worked with where they constantly feel like they're the ones giving and they're not getting anything back, feel angry and resentful and upset about it, and yet they keep giving. I was wondering if you could just speak to that a little bit because I've often felt a bit puzzled, like, well then why don't you just stop? Like if you feel so resentful.
Jason Lange: In some sense. For me it was fear. Fear of. To really acknowledge the situation would probably make me actually feel like, oh, this might not work or if I stop helping, will she still want to be with me? You know what if she breaks up with me because I draw, draw a boundary or say, you know what, I'm at my limit tonight, that's all I can do. I Can't help anymore. So for me, a lot of times it was just, it was like legitimate fear of being broken up with in some sense that as long as this dynamic is in play, I feel secure. Right. Because she needs me. There's like a, there's a hook, there's. I literally have a hook in her in some sense.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So it's almost like I, I'm afraid of losing connection so. So much that I will stay in this pattern that I know isn't working for me. Even if I feel resentful, even if I feel these things, it's the fear of losing, losing what connection you do have.
Jason Lange: And then, you know, at a more subtle level, another thing I'll say that I experienced a little bit, but I've definitely seen in some other people even more is in kind of more extreme situations where the woman they're with, you know, be it married for 20 years, long term girlfriend, or just someone in a very rocky relationship, there's the thought of they could never survive without me. Like, oh, like there's. I can't stop because otherwise, you know, she'll get hurt or she'll, her whole life will fall apart. Like I literally can't stop because it would be dangerous for her. I'm the only thing holding her life together.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Which again, you know, is somewhat empowering in a sense of like I'm really important. I'm the one, you know, there's, there's some ego there. I'm like holding this together. And in a very subtle way, I've noticed, truth be told with some guys is, you know, if I. To be really honest about it, sometimes there's a little disrespect in there because it's not actually trusting that a woman could actually rise up and take care of herself if it came to it. Right.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: I think that's well said because what brings to mind for me is that's not an adult relationship. That's not an adult relationship. It feels like what you would say about a child because a six year old child is actually. A six year old child will actually not be able to survive in, you know, most, most places if they're incredibly scrappy and maybe they'll make it, but they're incredibly vulnerable. They're small, they're weak, they're helpless, they're. They can't get a job. All of, all of these things versus a grown ass person where it's like you may believe that they will fall apart and it's possible they will fall apart, but it's also possible that they'll figure it out because they are an adult and they do have more resources in many cases than a six year old. But if you constantly hold them, as in like provide the things you've been providing and dance the same dance, do the pattern, you know, you're kind of deciding for them in a way that like, well, you can't handle it. If I wouldn't be able to handle it, versus like, I'm gonna take care of myself and my needs. This dance isn't working for me. I need to go. Which is an adult decision.
Jason Lange: It's way more adult.
Melanie Curtin: I have to stay. If I leave, she'll fall apart.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And ultimately sometimes the deeper that is the deeper service of love. Even if it is someone we really care about. Right. That's the. Oh, wow. We've created this codependent thing here and I'm actually enabling you every time I take care of you. Right. I'm actually participating in this kind of situation that's unfolding of you constantly being a victim and me constantly being the hero.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Like that's a co created thing. And sometimes, you know, to truly the deepest level of service would be actually, I need to step away from this because in that I think you're going to feel empowered to make the shifts you need to make. Because you know, the other word that comes up for me that's like another angle on this that I think we see more in the kind of consciousness and spiritual community is I will heal her. Like, oh man, there's so much ego in that for us guys of like, oh, I could be the one that heals her. Right?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Be it sexual trauma, be it relational, just like that feeling of I'm the one who like made her whole again. So there's like a lot of kind of. Yeah, there's. There can just be so much ego that I've even felt come up in myself before of like other guys couldn't do it, but I can do it. If I just stay with her long enough, help her long enough, then that, you know, this stuff will get fixed. Which almost never works. Because that type of healing really has to come from the person first. Right.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Only we can heal ourselves. And if the whole dynamic your relationship is, I'm trying to heal this other person, it's just setting things up for a lot of difficulty and not actually the desired end result.
Melanie Curtin: Absolutely. I'm curious to hear from you. Why do you think this pattern is so common? Why do you think people like you and me See it in men so much.
Jason Lange: Yeah. So, I mean, kind of going back to the stages of polarity that we've talked about, the three stages before, we could say that in some sense, a lot of times this pattern plays out for second stage men. So men whose caring side is really online and who are really in tune with giving and taking care of and nurturing other people, you know, we might say, you could say their feminine side, but it's just the piece that, you know, thinks about others, but that kind of gets overdeveloped sometimes. In the second stage where we put so much emphasis on what other people need, we totally ignore our own needs.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And I think there is a type of polarity then that can happen. Like, let's say we have a woman who's kind of more in her first stage. Like, her life is just. Be it drugs or a difficult divorce and financial instability or addiction. Addictions or just abusive behavior. Even in. Sometimes in some sense, to be the white knight or to be the hero or to be the healer. Even if my life is totally a mess right now, I might not have my shit together, but if I'm 10% more together than her, there's polarity there. I get to feel like, well, I'm not as fucked up as her.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah. And that's very seductive.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's really well said. I think the thing that I heard the loudest in that is if I'm busy taking care of someone who's really badly off, like, you know what you said, like, just moved to the area, doesn't have any money yet, doesn't have a job, you know, maybe has some family issues. Like, there's a lot going on in her life. If I can keep myself busy taking care of her, I don't have to look at the parts of my life that aren't working.
Jason Lange: Abso freaking lutely.
Melanie Curtin: Totally busy getting her a car, helping her get a job, putting all my attention and resources and energy over there. I don't have to take A look at what is actually happening in my life, especially if there's some pain or some area that's not working, I can just put all of my eggs over in that basket and not really worry about the fact that some of mine are cracked.
Jason Lange: Totally. There's a. You know, I think I've called it, like, firefighter syndrome before. You know, when we get into a relationship or a situation like that where someone is inevitably, almost always in crisis. You know, if it's not one thing, it's another. And as soon as we fix the one thing, something else comes along. There's constantly different fires to put out, you know, rescuing that person or helping that person, and those can just string together endlessly. Like, endlessly. And it's always the most important thing to put out the biggest fire. Right. But what can happen is then suddenly it's been a year, and you've just been rescuing someone, and there's been no movement in your life. I mean, I've seen guys totally neglect their jobs. You know, they get so wrapped up in the relationship. They've had a steady job or something, but it gets so codependent, and there's so much kind of energy going back and forth and drama that more and more of their time and their energy and their focus goes into that. Into that relationship, and their job performance goes down, or they get fired or they get demoted or they get a serious talking to from their boss, like, where. Where are you? We can, you know, we've noticed you're not really present in doing your job anymore.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Or male friendships.
Jason Lange: Oh, totally.
Melanie Curtin: Other relationships get. Get like, atrophy, kind of. Like they kind of can wither, and that can kind of make the codependence even worse, because then it feels like the only connection available is that other person.
Jason Lange: Yes. And I think when that happens, when it feels like the only connection available is that other person, I think that's when the blinders can go on. And, you know, suddenly. Suddenly we're in the fishbowl, and we forget that there's a whole other reality outside the bowl. And, you know, that's one of the things that has sometimes been just the most shocking to me in the men I've worked with. And hearing their stories is just like the. The. The things they've been willing to put up with, like, objectively, when. When you can, like, read about. It's like, oh, my God, like, how. How. How did you get into that situation? Like, how did it happen? And, you know, usually it is more of the kind of boiling pot thing where the heat just kind of turned up and then they get so entrenched that it feels like there's no way out. But I mean, some of the things I've heard of, you know, guys losing 20 years of their lives to relationships, you know, that we're not fulfilling past the second year. Like, I've, I've talked to many, many men like that, and oftentimes these are like prime years of our life that we cannot get back.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah, I want to go back to again. Like, why, where does this come from? What is the root cause of this kind of pattern for. For a man? Where does it come from?
Jason Lange: I mean, I can certainly speak for me, it was just. And it's just insecurity, you know, it's not being fully secure in myself and not feeling fully whole in myself. And that's a word I like to use, you know, wholeness. That wholeness tends to attract wholeness. So if there's pieces of ourselves, if there's work we haven't done on ourselves yet, be it, you know, shadow from our past or trauma or just pieces of ourselves that we haven't fully explored, then we're going to actually tend. You know, this is, this is the polarity thing. This is the actual physics of attraction that we magnetize our reciprocal. So if, if we're not whole, we're going to tend to magnetize people who aren't quite as whole yet. We kind of attract our reciprocal in that sense. So, you know, in terms of an, like a marching plan for guys, like, if this is a pattern that is happening and sometimes it's pretty hard to see on your own. And this is where it is really powerful to have a coach or to have a trusted community of men because, you know, you might come in and tell a story once or twice and they're like, oh, yeah, that's a little crazy. And then you're like, well, it doesn't happen often, but when you tell these kind of stories repeatedly to a group of trusted brothers, at some point people are going to have a little intervention and be like, this really just does not sound healthy. Yeah, what's going on here? And then that becomes the red, the red flag or the wake up call, you know, once we're aware of these patterns and it's like, wow, I, you know, part of my. There's an ownership that needs to happen right in that. Wow, I do have some responsibility in who I'm attracting. Like, that's a rough one. That's a.
Melanie Curtin: That'S a hard Pill to.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I'm curious, in your own experience how, you know, you made that shift. How did you get from being a man who would attract these kinds of wounded women to a man who attracted more like basically healthier women.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I'll say. One of my red flags that I did want to presence in a sense was this realization that, you know, it felt very true at the time. Not to say that things wouldn't have evolved had we stayed together, but there was a point where I was very clear, like, wow, this ex I had previously that I was in a long term relationship with where I realized she will never leave me, she will never leave me. Like, she will not leave me in the sense of if I keep kind of withdrawing and you know, all the ways that I was kind of just not showing up in the relationship and damaging things further. And when I had that realization that she would not leave me, that that was like a huge red flag of like something's not right here. Right.
Melanie Curtin: And what you mean by that is like I'm not treating her very well and no matter how poorly I treat her, she's still not gonna leave me. There's something wrong.
Jason Lange: Yes. Okay. Right. That was kind of the feeling I.
Melanie Curtin: Had something wrong with this picture.
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. Right. That ultimately, um, that you know, we, we teach each other how to take care of each other in some sense. And so if she's okay with me withdrawing and not taking care of her, like there's something, there's something really going on there. Right?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And if she has that going on, there's definitely something like that going on inside me. So. Wow. I need to take a look at that. Like what's, how did I co create this? I absolutely had a part in creating this situation. Right?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And that was like a big wake up call for me that, you know, strangely enough, or not strangely enough, but one of my eye opening moments was when I realized, oh, it's co creating a pattern that I had experienced in my childhood. Right?
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: No, big surprise.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: And for me it was just, you know, I was never abused or anything, but there was some neglect in terms of not enough connection in some important ways.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And you know, I had a very powerful. One of my, one of my teachers. First time anyone had reframed it for me of like, neglect is a form of abuse. Like it is a way. And when I realized how much I had been neglecting my ex, I was like, holy fuck. We, we had co created a kind of abusive relationship in some sense. It wasn't in any of the stereotypical ways. Yeah, but that, that, there was that heavy unevenness there and that was a big wake up call for me to take some time and to turn in and to go deeper into myself and into my work and to start making some shifts and changes around a lot of the areas of myself I had neglected. My emotional health, my physical health, my financial health, my career and purpose in some ways had been stagnant and I had used the relationship often as an excuse. Right. Because you know, I got to take care of her or if I choose to spend time alone, that means she's going to be alone. And that's hard on her. And that was the boom. That pattern just played out so many times.
Melanie Curtin: Right. So you neglected yourself by putting some focus or attention on, on her.
Jason Lange: Totally. And that's, you know, that's probably the thing more than anything else I've seen with a lot of guys is it's just, it's where in our white nightness, we actually hurt ourselves. We totally neglect our own boundaries, and it can cause a lot of damage that sometimes can take a long time to repair, be it just emotionally, be it financially, be it legally. You know, I've seen the whole gamut.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I want to go back to that idea of neglect because I've also found that in my work that there's something about men who didn't get enough emotional attention at home. Like, you know, physical touch, like hugs, like physical holding, emotional attunement, like, what did you do at school today? And looking into the person's eyes and really being with the kid, there's some. There's some connection there because a lot of the men that I've worked with have had some kind of neglect at home. And I'm wondering how you think that that relates to this particular pattern, because you would think that it would be the opposite, that you'd attract a woman that neglects you, but that doesn't really seem like what's happening here.
Jason Lange: Yeah, again, I think it's. It's in some sense wanting. You know, you could say it's like a safety mechanism to make sure that never happens again. You know, if I was neglected young, I'm going to magnetize a partner who could never leave me, who could never abandon me. Right. So there's some safety. It's almost like an insurance policy versus, you know, if I attract someone more whole and I'm not fully in my integrity or fully showing up in the relationship, it's quite likely she may say, this isn't working for me. I need things to be different. And then she could leave.
Melanie Curtin: Right.
Jason Lange: Can be very, very scary. And particularly if we've had a. If we haven't had enough connection in our tank is just, you know, sometimes it's negative in the sense of it's way below E. And we actually just need, like a saturation just to get back to normal, let alone full. There can be an almost desperation. Right. Like, oftentimes, and just need to lock someone down and make them dependent on me so I can. I can feel safe, that I won't be abandoned again or neglected again.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Or at least I can have some connection in my life. So. Yeah. So back to that question of how you got from the one, you know, one side to the other. Because the main question here, Right. Is how does a man stop the pattern? How does he start to attract healthier women? How does he. How does he do this? It sounds like for you, one of the things was Men's work that you came to start to do personal growth work with other men. Can you share a little bit about that and then also, like, make the connection between. Because you would think in some ways, like, oh, I'd have to look at my relationships with women and I mean. Yes, you do. But there's something really critically important about men's work that I think needs to be presence in this conversation.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And I think it ties. I mean, one of the places I see it tied the most into all this is what we just talked about. And that's there is this pattern, right. In our culture of the lone wolf man. So men that, you know, outside of the military and maybe some sports and some really intense work environments, most men don't have giant groups of men that they hang out with. Right. It's just not really kind of on the table.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: Did you have that experience? Did you have something that, like, several of your bros were like, dude, this. This doesn't seem right.
Jason Lange: I have had. I've definitely had that in some. In some important ways of, oh, yeah, you're right. Because, you know, like I said, when we get into a relationship, it kind of becomes our lens for the world. We think all relationships work the way the one we're in works. And then it's not until we kind of get popped out a little bit. And oftentimes that takes the inside of people. We're like, wow, yeah, actually, this doesn't. This isn't quite what I want it to be. Or this doesn't feel quite as healthy. And I have trusted people telling me that.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Yeah. It occurs to me what you just said is really important about normalizing, because I think especially when we're young or if we haven't had a lot of relationships, we can absolutely make that assumption. Like, oh, this is just how. How relationships are Quick story about that. I remember in my first serious relationship, it was very volatile. I had emotionally. I experienced, like, really high highs and really low lows, and it was not. Not an emotionally stable relationship in any way. And I remember, like, I remember I was living with a couple of housemates at the time, and we were in the kitchen and I was asking one of my housemates about her boyfriend and what, I think something like, what attracted you to him or something like, what, you know, what did you like about him? And she said, when I look into his eyes, I see two wells of compassion. He's just a compassionate man. And I got the sense that they had a very stable relationship and that she could really trust him to support her emotionally. I don't think they had a codependent relationship, but just it was a safe, secure relationship. And I absolutely couldn't believe that that was even possible at that time. Like, I'm like, my relationship was so fucked up that I was like, wow, what the hell would it be like to be with a man who was compassionate and who actually, like, was there for me? And I think. I think my ex boyfriend wanted to be there for me. But neither of us had done emotional work. I hadn't done any somatic therapy yet. I hadn't really looked at, like, my childhood. Like, I hadn't done the work yet. And so I just attracted someone that I just repeated a bunch of patterns from my childhood with. And it was way, like, lots of ups and downs. Like, tons of ups and downs. I don't think he wanted to be, like, what he was to me, but he was that. And the relationship was bad, and it was very volatile. And I remember in that instant thinking, holy shit, my relationship isn't normal. The relationship dynamic that I'm in is not what other people are experiencing. And that was a huge red flag eye opener, like, shifting point for me, where I was like, this is probably not good. I should. I should probably not be maybe doing this anymore. It took me, like, another six months to actually end it. But I remember being like, wow, what would it be like to be with a guy I actually felt safe with?
Jason Lange: That's so huge. It's so huge. And that, you know, what that reminds me of is just. Yeah, sometimes it's just as simple as, like, people don't know. They literally don't know what is actually possible in relationship. And that, like, healthy boundaries and wholeness and, like, a place of love and compassion and service for each other is actually available.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: It's okay to, like, not be okay with Everything, so to speak. You know, I think that's in some sense, for a lot of us, kind of second stage nice guys. That's. That's part of not necessarily having a transmission of strong masculine from our fathers as well. Like a whole generation of not so much having that kind of like firm, contained, with boundaries, love of like. Yes, there's some things that are okay and there's some things that are not. Like, just as simple as that. And that doesn't mean we're going to lose connection with each other like that both of those things are possible.
Melanie Curtin: And.
Jason Lange: And when that transmission hasn't happened, we just. We don't even know. Like, it hasn't been experienced in our bodies. And then, you know, another thing I'll say that has been a shift for me in terms of one of the. This journey and that I've seen for some guys that I do actually think plays out into this kind of codependent dynamic of attracting wounded women. Who we take care of is when we move into relationships of wholeness and there is that reciprocity. We actually have to be able to be open and receive. Like to receive someone else's care and love and nurturance. And for a lot of men, that is incredibly vulnerable and they do not know how to do it. They do not know how to, you know, put the sword down for a night and just be taken care of and someone come towards them and be like, wow, I can see it's been really hard for you. Why don't you just, you know, relax, I'm gonna cook dinner, I'm gonna take care of you. I'm gonna. All this stuff, or I'm gonna handle, you know, rent this month, whatever that might be. I think that's a huge edge is a lot of men just literally don't know how to receive. So they could. They can only find themselves in these situations where they give, give, give, give, give.
Melanie Curtin: That's such a good point. Because there's so many things I'm realizing in this conversation that are camouflaged. Like there might be some guys who are like, oh, I can receive. That's like, not a problem. But the vulnerability of it that you just mentioned, it is vulnerable to receive.
Jason Lange: It is vulnerable.
Melanie Curtin: It's super vulnerable. Especially if, you know that's been shamed or you. The way you think of it is weakness or all of the host of things that come along with it. And so if I'm a guy and I'm constantly giving in relationships, I don't even have to. It's Camouflage. I don't even have to see that receiving is vulnerable for me. I get to not even look at that. Like, it's just not even on the menu. Whereas if I'm in a relationship that has more wholeness, I have to actually feel that discomfort and vulnerability of receiving. Like, wow, this is. This is totally edgy for me. For you to give me a foot rub and for me to trust that, like, you're not going to expect something back.
Jason Lange: Exactly. Totally.
Melanie Curtin: That's, like a big edge for me in learning how to receive. It has. Has been like, can I trust you? Can I trust that I can receive from you and that you're not going to lord it over me or shame me later or expect something that I didn't even know about? Can I trust you to receive from you?
Jason Lange: Totally. And that's, you know, I think another way to frame that is it's the shift, it's the real shift to an orientation and a relationship of giving. And not in this way we've been talking about throughout this lesson over giving, where we're actually oftentimes covertly giving to get something, like, to get security, to get connection, versus, like, oh, I'm whole. So I really actually just want to make your day easier. And I don't need you to give me anything back. Actually, seeing you receive it, what, nourishes me and feeds me because. And I don't need anything more because I have that wholeness. And then it just becomes this fun dance, right. This fun play back and forth of getting to gift each other these wonderful moments and, yeah, being able to let go of that, like, that whole reciprocity thing that can like, get so dysfunctional in relationships of, oh, well, if I do this, then it's really because I want her to give this back to me. Or, you know, like, just all these kind of implicit assumptions and agreements and contracts that can often get created that can cause so much dysfunction when we're kind of coming from that more fractured place.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, absolutely. Something I just wanted to go back to is the transmission of the healthy masculine. I would say that one of the things I admire the most about you personally, Jason, is I feel like you are. You are a coach yourself, and you provide a transmission to the people that you coach. But you also make sure that you get. You do workshops, you work with mentors. I know Robert Masters is one of your mentors. You are in men's groups yourself. You are constantly learning and growing on the path and working with men that you look up to. So you're you're getting resource. It's like if you looked at it as like a hierarchical thing, like, there are men above you that you're getting resourced from, and you're getting even more transmissions of the masculine, and then you're passing that along to the men, not in a hierarchical way underneath you, but just so we can think about it that way. There's the men above you that you're getting resource from, and then you're resourcing the men below you. And I think that's something really important to highlight because there's so much hope here. There's so much transformation that is available if you are a man in this circumstance. If you're listening to this and you're nodding along like, wow, this is really, like, this is my relationship pattern. Like, I've definitely been this guy. I'm still this guy. There's a lot of hope here because, Jason. Well, you've done it yourself. You've kind of transformed yourself. But even if you didn't have that masculine transmission in your family of origin, there are these men in the world that is happening. Those men are out there. You can work with them. Like, you're not. You're not just fucked because you had a bad childhood. You know what I mean? Like, it's not a permanent thing. Like, there's tons of hope here. And that's part of why I do the podcast and why I have people like you on, because I really admire that you're passing along what you've learned, and you are still very much on the path, which I have just huge respect for.
Jason Lange: It becomes, you know, it's this thing we're all getting to co create together. You know, if we call it third stage or, you know, defining a new masculinity, new femininity, all of it is, you know, at these higher levels, things start to collapse a little bit in that you're both giving and receiving at the same time oftentimes. Right. It's like I'm receiving from other teachers who then I can give to other people who are giving to other people.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And even this idea of the hierarchy starts to, you know, more. One of the things that gets me the most jazzed up is redefining what that means as much more fluid in the sense that, yes, even guys I coach around some of this masculine embodiment and integration and stuff. I could say that, yes, I think I've seen a little more than you, or maybe I've experienced a little more than you. And I have something here to Teach you. And in this dynamic, in this relationship, there is a hierarchy, right? I am transmitting something to you, but I'm fully fucking aware. We could walk down the street to, you know, a basketball court or into someone's workplace and that hierarchy is going to change, right? They're going to have a knowledge base in other areas or zones of influence in which that might flip. And so there's a lot more fluidity there in terms of we all get to be teachers and students in a lot more real ways. Which I think just makes the system so much healthier as well, because then, yeah, I'm getting resourced by my teachers, I'm resourcing other guys, they're going out and working with other people. I get resourced by you. You know, it just, it becomes this huge, beautiful matrix. Love. There's so much more love available. The more we move towards wholeness and realize we don't have to do it all alone and that there's other people who legitimately can help us on the way. It's like, oh, okay, I don't have to follow some of these old patterns before and I can step more into myself boldly. And truth be told, that often lets us care for and serve the world much more deeply than, you know, the ways I used to try to give love, so to speak, or take care of someone at my own expense and then get totally burnt out and it wasn't serving anyone.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a really, really good point. I think what I hear in that is the resilience when we are a web is higher than when we're isolated. So when I can give freely to you because I'm resourced, but when I'm depleted, you can give to me. Like there's a, like you said, like there's an exchange. So in a couple, it's like, I'm not having a great day and you can give to me or I can go to one of my girlfriends, right? If you're having, if you're having a down day, we're not so dependent on each other. We have other resources as well, which makes our whole network resilient because we're all, there's a, there's a dance happening. Where is the energy needed? That's where the energy goes. It's like a flow instead of kind of like a little boxes that we live in where we're all alone.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I love that. The resiliency just goes way, way up. And it is a one to one thing, you know, in so many ways that as you said I think that would be the last thing I would just want to take away is there is, you know, you may think it's woo woo, you know, some people listening to this in the spiritual sense, but there literally is a transmission of when we're around someone who has wholeness, we can feel it in our bodies, right? Like we feel more open, we feel more free, we actually feel pulled towards them because there's something there that's calling us deeper into ourselves. You know, wholeness begets wholeness. So the more you can step into yourself and heal yourself, the more you're actually going to be healed. Like literally the heal yourself, heal, heal the world thing, right? Like it's not bullshit, it's real, it's true. It all starts there.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a really good point because I think the thing that one thing I would want to leave the audience with is this stuff works. Working, getting, doing a workshop, doing the work. Even if it's joining aa, if you're like, I think I have a problem with alcohol, join aa, do the work start. Because the mentors that are right for you, you will feel the pull and they will show up in your life. So all of this stuff does work and it is important. It is important, like you said, to be around people who have the wholeness that you're looking for. Because you're not going to get that from your codependent partner.
Jason Lange: Exactly.
Melanie Curtin: I keep doing the same dance. You've got to change it up. You've got to go be around, you know, a therapist, a somatic therapist, a coaching group, men's group. You know, the Mankind Project has great, great resources, like, but something that's going to help you on this journey, that is going to help with that, that kind of transmission.
Jason Lange: Totally. That's it. Like you can't, you can't think your way into wholeness. Right? You get cognitively, wholeness is not something that works. It's actually a felt experience in your body when you're around other people. So if you've never experienced it, us talking about wholeness is probably not going to make a lot of sense. But you know, be it a therapist, a mentor, or just, you know, a lucky person you come across and you start to, you know, feel that energy shift in your body when you're around someone. It's like, oh, now I felt it in my body. I have something to compare the rest of my experience to. Yeah, like there's an actual map in our bodies now and we can use our experiences to move towards that in other ways in our life and now. I mean, like you said this. I mean, it's mind blowing to me. Like, there has literally never been another time on our planet like this, where we have the ability to reach out to so many amazing healers and teachers and have access to all this stuff that quite literally, you know, the time we're living in right now is one of the first time. It's about the first time in the history of all mankind that we can heal some of these traumas that go back in our lineages for hundreds, if not thousands upon thousands of years within one or two generations. Like, the technology is actually here now. And like you said, it works. When you actually do it. It works.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. That's such a good point. Even on a practical level, like the Pillars of Presence, the coaching program that we do, we have guys from all over the country. You could be in, like, I don't want to. I don't use a bad term, but you could be in the middle of nowhere, Nebraska, and you can get this kind of help. That's really unusual and extraordinary. That did not. That was not always the case. That is actually pretty significant because, you know, I'm a big fan of local community. I think local community is really important. And sometimes it's not gonna start out that way. Sometimes it is gonna start out online. And like, I've had online communities that have absolutely changed my life. Like, just to know that other people were having the same experience. Like, wow, your mom did that too. Like, I thought I didn't.
Jason Lange: Wow.
Melanie Curtin: Like, my mind is alone.
Jason Lange: So I'm not alone.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. As a. As a. Something to end on is like, you're right. This is a unique point in history. This has not always been the case.
Jason Lange: Totally. It's. I mean, we're so blessed to be alive right now. And there's, you know, in some sense, you know, not to be. Not to be too stern a father, but it's like there's. There's no excuse if you. If you're ready for more in your life, um, and that healing to come. It literally just starts with you making the decision and taking the time to start to explore some things and meet some people because it may feel impossible. You know, I've been. I was at spots in my life where it felt impossible to change, and I could not imagine my life being any other way. But it really is. Like we said, it really does work. This stuff is real. These transformations are real. So you just have to make the decision that, okay, it's time. And oftentimes for us guys, it just starts with it's time and I need some help.
Melanie Curtin: Yes, yes. So speaking of that, where can guys find you and where can they find our program?
Jason Lange: Yeah. So the best way to stay in touch with me and my menswork is at Evolutionary Men. Very simple URL. And on that page you'll see some different articles I've written. You'll see a link to my webinar, you'll see a link to chat if you actually want to get on the phone and talk about, you know, where you're at in your life and where you're wanting to go. And we can talk about how that might look and whether or not our program's a good fit for you. And. Yeah, and that's really just kind of the best way to.
Melanie Curtin: So that's evolutionary.men, as in not evolutionary.org or.com, but evolutionary men.
Jason Lange: Exactly. The. Literally, the masculine is rising and we just got our own top level domain.
Melanie Curtin: I love it. That's awesome. And yeah, I, I just want to say, like, it's been really special and uplifting and pretty extraordinary to be part of that program and to be helping the men that are in that program. I know for me, what I have seen in my coaching is that the men that are part of a community of men from the beginning tend to get the best results fastest. So that those are the kinds of programs that I'm committed to working with. Now, I will occasionally work with men one on one, but I'm passionate about these kinds of group programs because I find that the results are better. The men are getting better results and they're getting them faster. And I am all about efficiency. So I'm totally into that.
Jason Lange: Totally. And it ties right into what I was saying about the hierarchies as well. The beauty of a group program is, yes, I'm going to, you know, stand, stand there and say, here's how I think things work the best. And you get to say how you think things work the best. But they're also, you get the wisdom of other men who have their own life experiences and who have traveled different roads and earned different wisdom. And that's, that's not always possible in one on one. Like that's the real alchemy in a group of. Oftentimes someone else has the peace we didn't have and some. And sometimes someone else's healing is actually the healing we need.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, exactly.
Jason Lange: That's where witnessing their shift. Yeah, it's witnessing their shift that something gets unlocked in us. There's this just incredible group matrix thing that. That really is powerful and yeah, absolutely why I'm the most deeply called to group work.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I agree. All right, so you guys know where to find us. We will be back next week with another episode and looking forward to it. That wraps up another episode of Dear Men. Thank you for listening. If you want to reach out, we would love to hear from you. We're on Instagram and Twitter, Earmen podcast. That's earmenpodcast or Facebook. We have a group Dear Men podcast. We also have an email address, dearmenpodcastmail.com if you want to join the Big Sexy Data Set, the community of people who regularly respond to the surveys that we talk about on this podcast, just email us at that address, dearmen podcastmail.com and we will set you up. Have a sexy day. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da. Da da da da.
