What happens when the very patterns that helped us survive childhood become the exact things sabotaging our adult relationships? I was on Melanie's show diving into something that still hits me in the chest when I think about it: how our attachment styles shape everything in our partnerships. We went deep into emotional neglect and the invisible patterns we carry from those early years, exploring how what once protected us now creates distance from the people we love most.
What really stood out was talking through the three main patterns we see with the men we work with. The anxious attachment stuff, where guys get totally enmeshed with their partners and can't be okay unless she's okay. The avoidant patterns, where there was involvement from parents but zero emotional attunement, so you learned to just handle everything alone. And the disorganized attachment, the invisible child experience, where you kind of just existed in your own bubble because nobody was really tracking you.
For me, this is deeply personal. I shared about that moment working with one of my mentors where I hit the floor weeping, my voice cracking like a child, saying "hold me." That was the first time my body went there, the first time I actually felt the impact of growing up without physical touch or emotional attunement. It changed everything for me in terms of understanding my patterns with women, with intimacy, with even just asking for what I needed.
The other piece we got into was the still face experiment and how kids respond when connection gets removed. They try to re-engage, then they get stressed, then angry, then they start to collapse and self-regulate however they can. When that pattern gets perpetuated, the light just goes out. A lot of us are walking around with that light dimmed, not even knowing what we need because we never learned to ask.
The way through this stuff isn't quick. For me it's been therapy, somatic work, and honestly men's group was probably the biggest training ground. Having a place to practice feeling what I'm feeling and having people reflect back what they're seeing in me. Then taking that deeper with my wife Violet, and even going back to reopen those channels with my own parents.
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Jason Lange: My parents had the information they had in addition to then their own familial attachment styles they got. So, yeah, it's not so much about the blame, and it can actually be quite, for me, has been compassionate and illuminating to understand where they came from and how that was given to them and that was given to me. Something we've helped a lot of our guys.
Melanie Curtin: Okay. Welcome back to another episode. I am delighted to have Jason Lange here with me, my wonderful co. Coach. Thank you for being here.
Jason Lange: Hello. Hello.
Melanie Curtin: So today we're talking about a hidden relationship pattern that we have witnessed, I would say, both in ourselves and our clients. And I think this is something that is a long time coming on the podcast and that we've. I feel like I've gotten a more sophisticated understanding of what this is and how it affects relationships as I've. As I've moved through the world. And I think part of the reason that this pattern can be confusing is that it is kind of invisible. There are a lot of people who grow up in homes where they were physically taken care of. They got what they needed, they were fed, and they were housed to varying degrees, but essentially that was pretty steady. There was no domestic violence in the home. There was no obvious trauma. And yet they struggle with relationship. They struggle with connection. They struggle with closeness. And it can be really confusing as to why that is. So we're going to kind of talk about that pattern today.
Jason Lange: And.
Melanie Curtin: And essentially what we're talking about is emotional neglect, and it can be other forms of neglect as well. But there is a. There's a. There's a confusing pattern that happens when you're getting your physical needs met. There's a parent or a caregiver or two around. They're physically around, but they're not really around. Emotionally, they're not present. And that can feel like, well, I had a pretty good childhood. Everything was kind of fine. I think that can be a red flag. So, yeah, you have some personal experience with this, and I would love to hear a little bit about your story in terms of recognizing, like, understanding that this is part of your history, because I would imagine if I imagine being, you would have been like, yeah, everything was fine. It was great. It was good. But what was the effect on your adult relationships and closeness, especially with romantic partners?
Jason Lange: Yeah, so this, you know, bits and pieces of this have probably come through on previous episodes, but for me, this was, I think, as is for a lot of people, kind of a phased realization. I became more aware of it over time, and I do very Concretely remember, though, one of the first moments. And I think for a lot of kids, this happens maybe junior high into high school, because you start, I don't know, you're more self aware, but you're also around other people and around other families and tends to, you know, where people are like, oh, other families work differently than mine. But for me, it was. Maybe it was after my junior year of high school summertime, I was going to a. What was it? Sierra Student Coalition, like, summer program for like environmental training for high school kids. I was super excited about. It was in West Virginia and I was going with a bunch of friends and their dad was going to drive us in anyway. So I think I was the last person they picked up maybe. And the minivan came up to my house and you know, it's going to be gone for five or six days. And I hadn't done a ton of that, maybe solo outside my parents at that time. So, you know, my mom walked down to the van to say goodbye and like I awkwardly hugged her goodbye. And I just remember feeling that was really weird. Like, that was. It just. It just felt weird. Felt weird and didn't think much more about it. And then, you know, went on with life and all that. And it was maybe in college at some point I was like, that moment really sticks with me. And why then as it really landed, as I started doing some work, which we'll get into, was like, oh, I can't actually remember the last time I touched my mom before that. Like, it was not like I literally could not zoom into a moment where there was like a hug or an embrace or that kind of contact, really kind of as far as I could remember in a lot of ways. And so that was an example of me becoming aware of, oh, wow, you know, I. It didn't feel necessarily weird. Cause I didn't know anything differently right at the time. So in like junior high, I'm not walking around thinking about like, hey, wow, I've never. I haven't hugged my mom. Um, but then as I got, you know, in really about that time in high school, it was becoming clear I was just really uncomfortable with women. Like, I didn't know what I was doing. That's where, you know, I'd have a lot of crushes and they wouldn't go anywhere or I'd be afraid to make a move if there was. And there was just like a lot going on in my nervous system. And, you know, that just escalated. As I've talked about before, I was virgin through college through after college and really kind of culminated in my mid-20s when I made a move to a new town in a new community that was way more growth oriented and kind of got on ramps, I would say, to men's work, to therapy, into deep, somatic work for the first time. And one of my mentors in particular I was working with, he was doing some deep group somatic work. And it was. I think I was the third person to go maybe in the weekend. And, you know, I had done maybe two years of therapy with someone else before that, talk therapy, and it was super useful in a lot of ways. But I didn't quite. I don't know, I didn't really hit a lot of this stuff. And I remember working with him and within seven minutes I was on the floor, my voice cracked, and I was weeping uncontrollably saying, touch me or hold me. I can't remember the exact word, like, hold me. And I had never. My body had never gone there, you know, and it was just like, I actually felt like a child. Like a child. And my voice cracked and crying and grieving and I was like, whoa, what is that? And that was kind of my first, like, real wake up. And then as I started to feel back, it was like, oh, yeah, that just was not part of my experience growing up, and it was not part of my family experience. And even as I started to get into men's work, you know, I noticed there was like a. A way a lot of men wrestled with each other that just like, I never went there, like, grabbing each other or like the touch just was not part of my experience. So that was what really woke me up to. And then at another workshop with him many years later, where I was still, you know, processing some of this stuff in different waves, he was the first person that ever sat me down and just said, yeah, you know, neglect is a form of abuse. And that just like, I was like, I would never identify as someone who is, you know, that use those words. And then not only did that hit me, but then it like rang out and wow. And I can see how I perpetuated that in my last relationship, like, with a partner who ultimately, you know, wasn't my life partner, but was a great learning partner. And that kind of changed everything for me in terms of even becoming aware of, oh, you know, I think there's big versions of that, or not big, but there's certain versions of abuse we're very tuned into in our culture. But this was the. I think I was a good example of this subtle version of that and some of the other things we'll kind of talk about as well.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, there's so many things that you said, but one of the things I want to point out is even the languaging of I can't remember the last time I hugged my mom is the last time I hugged my mom. And that is really different from I can't remember the last time my mom hugged me.
Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly.
Melanie Curtin: Or my dad held me. And that is a perfect example of the effect of neglect. Right. When you don't have it, when the, when the parent or the caregiver isn't providing, then you don't have the sense of being held. You don't have the sense of essentially being the child. Right. Because it's a little bit of a parentified role to say, I, when I hug my mom, it's like I'm in the position of. Of holding her or I'm in the position of caring for her instead of, I'm the little one, I'm the little one and I get taken care of. We're going to go over a couple different archetypes of what neglect can look like in terms of its effect on kids, but I think that's a really great and common one that we see in clients for sure of. At some point there was a switch in roles that there's this effect when parents aren't emotionally mature. They don't provide what's needed for the child, and so the child often ends up providing it for themselves and for the parent or parents. And that's not a great situation in terms of learning, healthy closeness. So that's one thing that I noticed. And then the other thing is the dawning realization of this. It's like a Polaroid coming into view was how it felt when you were describing it, of the dawning realization of, wow, I actually really didn't get what I needed as a child. And that's definitively impacting my relationships now. And I really want this to be clear. We are not doing this episode to blame anybody. We're not doing it to blame parents or to blame people who haven't realized this. This is not about blame. It's just about awareness. Because if you don't, if you don't understand what's happening, you can't change what's happening. And a lot of people have never. This Polaroid has never come into view. They've never connected the dots between what happened when they were young and what's happening in their adult life now, especially in relationships. Sex and relationships, and it's really important. And you can do that without shaming or blaming people that didn't know what they were doing. Right. There's a reason that your parents weren't able to provide what you needed, and it's because of how they were raised. So it's not about your parents were bad parents. This is not about that. I just want to make that really clear because I think there's a big block in the way of this kind of awareness for people. And it's love. They love. It's love. It's appreciation. It's the knowledge their parents were doing the best they could. And there can be some defenses around that of, you know, for me to admit that I was neglected, that I am a child of emotional neglect, there's an element of shit, I have to admit that my parents didn't do it. All. Right. And a lot of families have a lot of defenses around that. Right. They have a lot of defenses around not talking about family. You know, I don't even want to use the word secrets, but not talking about family patterns, not wanting someone to feel bad, not wanting someone to feel like they didn't do a good job, etc. And it's really, really important that we're able to talk about this and explore it openly and understand this isn't someone's fault. We're not talking about fault and blame. We're talking about literally what happened. What happened and what was the impact.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that's an important piece. And also just layered on top of that, our knowledge base has grown considerably in terms of, like, what do kids even need developmentally? You know, when I think back to, you know, my parents were kind of the Dr. Spock generation of just let them cry it out in the crib. Like, that's what a lot of parents were taught at that time was good parenting. And there was a lot more emphasis on formula. Like, I wasn't breastfed formula, you know, like, there was just a lot going on there that my parents had the information they had in addition to then their own familial. Familial attachment styles they got. So, yeah, is not so much about the blame. And it can actually be quite, for me, has been compassionate and illuminating to understand where they came from and how that was given to them and that was given to me. You know, something we've helped a lot of our. Our guys with. Yeah, it's about blaming them.
Melanie Curtin: It's.
Jason Lange: Some of them were just using the best they had at the time. Some of them had their own attachment styles that were then played out with their kids. But it's just about the impact. Right. It's about us discovering there's absolutely an impact to how our primary caregivers related to us really in those particularly first zero to five years and beyond that for sure. But like massive amounts of impact that a lot of us then spent the rest of our years unwinding and trying to get the root of and have a little more control and choice over how we're showing up with.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think this might be a good time to go through the archetypes. So there are basically three. These are common examples of emotional neglect and these are. These are pulled from. Excuse me, these are pulled from therapists website. The attribution of which I will put in the show notes. So the first one is called the burdened child. So number one is the burdens child. The child of an emotionally needy parent doesn't develop healthy boundaries, a sense of where they end and the rest of the world begins. Their parent looks to them for emotional validation but provides little or none in return. This means that the parent child rules get switched with the child providing emotional support to their parent and learning that this is their role in life. If this was your childhood as an adult, you may feel responsible for everyone else's well being. This can leave you feeling anxious or overwhelmed or angry and burdened. And that's the end of that description. I think the. I have worked with men, I think we have worked with men where a good example of this is a depressed parent and, or an alcoholic parent or any kind of addicted parent. But I think we've seen a lot of that kind of alcoholic archetype where the child is providing sometimes physical care. Right. Making sure that the parent is safe and. Or emotional needs. This can also be. Your parent was divulging information. They should not have been. Right. They were confiding in you as they should. They should have had friends. They needed adult friends. They should not have been telling you about their work problems and especially not about their problems with their spouse. So we've had guys where mom often mom, sometimes dad was complaining about. So mom was complaining about dad telling him things, telling the child things that shouldn't have been telling him. And, and yeah, the, the child was cast in this role of friend, adult friend, support system, caregiver. And a lot of times that that child felt really protective of mom or really loyal to mom. And this can, you know some, some people argue this can even result in emotional incest. Which is, this is a totally, totally inappropriate relationship between parent, child. This should never have been this way. Mom felt like she didn't have anyone else that she could rely on or trust or that could support her. You know, she didn't have a lot of outlets or love in her life. And so there was this child that could provide some of that and she, she leaned into that. That's inappropriate. And again, that's not to blame anyone. But this is one, this is one archetype of emotional neglect. This child was emotionally neglected. This child did not get their emotional needs met because they were busy providing it to the parent.
Jason Lange: Yeah, one way to think about this is like the direction of regulation. So it's often, and this is a good example of the kids are co regulating their parents versus the flow should optimally be the other direction in that a parent should be co regulating us. This is one that definitely shows up a lot with nice guys too. The paradigm, the nice guy from Dr. Glover of being overly nice to partners and attuning to them and making sure their needs are met. Which totally shows up in romantic relationships for a lot, a lot of. A lot of guys.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And it fucks with the polarity. It's not, it, it isn't actually. It's not sexy because there's no. And the thing is that again, back to the idea of this being hidden or invisible. Men who, adult men who are doing this right, the people pleasing and everything. A lot of times they're not even aware of their own needs. They don't really have a sense of awareness of what they actually want and need. Sometimes they have some awareness, but a lot of the time they don't have a deep awareness of what that is. But they still have them. They still have the needs and so they'll have the needs. Not admit or be consciously aware that they have them, won't get them met, and then be resentful as fuck that they're not getting them met. So there's this deep well of resentment that I'm not, I'm not getting what I need. I just keep giving to her and I feel used. But they're not actually consciously aware of what their needs are and they're not able to advocate for themselves, stand in their own power, set boundaries, ask for what they need, you know, stop over giving. That's a big one. Just stop over giving. If you stopped over giving and were able to set boundaries and say no, you'd feel a lot less resentful. But that wasn't even possible in your Childhood, that was not a part of. That was not a part of your map. So now as an adult, it's a hole in your awareness that you have to start filling in. And if you haven't done that yet, a lot of your romantic relationships are going to feel confusing and sort of annoying because you feel like you're just giving and giving and giving and giving and giving. You're giving money, you're giving attention, you're giving resources, you're giving people rides. You know, you're just giving all of this and you don't feel like you're getting a lot back.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And there's also an individual impact too, where another way we see this show up is I'm only okay if my partners okay. Right. And so there's that real. Which, you know, I've been with many men in men's group who. Yeah. Like, literally, they, they had to make their mom okay. And if she felt off, they felt off. Like, because it is kind of emerging nervous system a little bit at that time. So this is a big one then, where guys don't feel okay if their partner's mad at them or upset at them. So then there's the. I'll do anything to make her feel better so that she'll feel soothed. So that I'll feel soothed. And again, that just kind of tanks polarity in a lot of ways. And it's just like a long term source of stress. Right. Because sometimes you can't control how your partner's doing. And if you're only well, if she's only well, it becomes hard for her to trust you too.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I, I would definitely put myself in this category. This would be where I would say that I landed and that what you said is, is perfectly worded. I'm only okay if my partner's okay. And so there's a, there's a compulsive need. A compulsive need to have to help them regulate or, you know, like, this isn't true as much anymore. But before it was like a compulsion. Like, I can't not do this. I have to make them okay. I have to get them to forgive me. Because it was usually a forgiveness thing. Like, I fucked something up, Mom's mad at me, and I won't get any love or attention or care until mom's okay. So I will do whatever it takes to get there. And that's not healthy because I would just step right over my own boundaries. Right. I will prostrate myself. I'll say whatever it Takes. I will do whatever it takes. It's not healthy. It's not healthy. It's compulsive and overwhelming. It's like, yeah, I can't sleep, I can't eat, I can't do anything until this is fixed. And that's not a healthy relationship. And a healthy relationship, yes, of course you're going to be uncomfortable when there's tension with your partner and you're going to be able to care for yourself and soothe yourself in some way and be okay knowing, hey, we're experiencing tension and I still have rights, right. I'm still a person here instead of I have completely disappeared and all of my energy and attention and love is over there to make sure you're okay. There's no, that's not healthy. There's no sense of self in the experience of tension. And that's really kind of what we want to get to is a healthy sense of who. All right, I'm experiencing a lot of heat over here. I'm concerned that, you know, my partner's mad at me. I'm also like, let me check in with myself and be with myself. There's some sense of I'm online too.
Jason Lange: Yeah, this is probably one of the most common ones I feel like we've seen shown up a lot of the guys we work with that just is very, very prevalent and it takes a lot of work to unwind that, you know, takes a lot of unwork to unwind that with some of our guys and just have that realization. Oh right. This is probably an area too where a word, you know, we've probably spoken about before that shows up is this kind of tends to be the enmeshment side of things where yeah, like we're just kind of totally enmeshed or codependent will often show up, I think in more the burden child here of again my well being and their well being are dependent on each other. And so lack of boundaries, sometimes jumping into things too fast over giving over supporting too fast. Um, the speed piece I think sometimes shows up here versus, you know, just having a little bit more healthy separation along the way. And that, you know, this stuff, this stuff also impacts relationships too, that sometimes, you know, another way we've seen this shown up is these can be active lines open still, like being a certain level of enmeshed with a parent actually does impact my current intimate relationship because my partner feels that and there's a conflict there of like, who are you? You know, you just do it. So becoming aware of this one in particular can have massive, massive repercussions for guys.
Melanie Curtin: That's a great point. I remember tutoring for a family where the mom was confiding in me about some family dynamics and essentially her husband was still pretty enmeshed with his mother. And she had a lot of wealth, she had resources, so I think she was paying for one of the kids education anyway. It was really messy and it was very enmeshed. She had a lot of power in the family that was. She had emotional power and she had physical power which often go together. And I read a study once that said the number one indicator of a successful marriage partnership is not about whether you share values. It's not about education status, it's not about your communication levels. It's has each partner individuated from their family of origin. If both partners have each individuated, you are much more likely to be successful in a partnership. Which makes a lot of sense for a lot of reasons, but this is one of them. Because you can't have a healthy relationship with your spouse if you're still enmeshed with an adult parent. It's not possible. You aren't really your own person yet. And yeah, I think we see. I have seen that less in our men that they're still enmeshed with an adult parent. But I've seen a lot of this that they have gotten enmeshed with romantic partners. And, and I've also seen this second archetype. The second one is the silenced child. I feel like we've gotten a lot of these guys recently. The silenced child is a child who's just never asked how they feel. They're not encouraged to share their thoughts, their preferences, their ideas. Basically they learn that their needs and their feelings don't matter. In response, they tend to bury their emotions and stop trying to connect with people. On a deeper level, this can happen with really strict parents, right, authoritarian parents or with very permissive sort of distracted parents that aren't. They're just not present. The issue is that the child's emotions are not seen as valid or important. If you learned to bury your emotional responses as a child, you might struggle as an adult to know how you're feeling or what your needs truly are. You might also see emotional expression as weakness and avoid it at all costs, even if that results in stress related health issues, failed relationships and a nagging sense that something is missing in your life. This one I find really heartbreaking because to me this feels like classic neglect where the child just isn't, you know, they Come home from school and they're not asked, like, how was your day? What happened? What's going on with that project? You know, how's it going with that friend, that fight you had yesterday? Right. There's no parent tracking what's going on in the child's life and eliciting emotional truth because you really. It's part of how we learn what we need. It's part of how we learn about what we need and what we want and who we are is an attuned parent or caregiver. It doesn't matter who they are asking us, eliciting our truth. And I think you can probably speak a little bit to this, that, you know, it's. It's a. It's subtle, like you said. It's not that there. It's not that there was something big t. Trauma happening. It's not that you were getting hit or. Or whatever, something like that. It's that you just. You weren't asked.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Asked.
Melanie Curtin: You weren't. They didn't draw that out of you. And that's so important.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I actually think that of. Of the three, you know, we're covering today, this could arguably be the most subtle one and the most hard detect one that we do see show up for guys. And that sometimes I have to really, like, slow them down to realize because this. This can show up in a lot of ways, but one way it does show up is just like a family, where there's no interiority. Right. But like, dad took me to the ball game, we went to the thing, like, we went on vacations. But there's just no, like, emotional connection in particular underneath it, which can make it feel very subtle because it's like, no, my family was good. Right. We hear that from, like, I don't think it was a big deal. I think I had a pretty good childhood, you know, things we often hear a lot from guys that we help to just. Just uncover a little bit more underneath another place. I do see this show up with guys and depending on certain heritage for people as well, too, of this can show up in the more performative space, too. I've seen where there's, like. There is actually a lot of involvement for the parent, like tracking grades or school or sports performance. But that the interior piece is totally missed. Right.
Melanie Curtin: Aspect of how are you feeling about these things? Not just totally perform well in your sport or your musical prowess, but how are you feeling about the teacher? How are you feeling about your friends? How are you feeling about this part of your life?
Jason Lange: Yeah. The what's going on inside? Peace. Right. In I kind of think this 2 and 3 in particular as we'll get to tend to be the home base where a lot of lone wolves are born particularly I think with two to some extent in three but can get a lot done. Are very functional in the world and have never known how to ask for help or support.
Melanie Curtin: They're extremely lonely. Extremely lonely. This little piece really caught my attention of the nagging sense that something is missing in your life. Right. The nagging sense that something is missing because there is something missing. That sense of being deeply seen, feeling deeply felt is dependent on your emotional truth being shared and then being witnessed. Right. There's such power in that and in a healthy home you that's happening all the time. The parent is eliciting, how are you feeling? And when they're very young man, they're just giving it to you. Right. You've got a two year old, she doesn't need to be elicited, she's just doing it. And you're responding to it. You're responding to it and helping her now. Helping her with words and vocabulary. Oh, it sounds like you're really frustrated. You're teaching her emotional capacity in, in, in childhood neglect. You're not being taught that. So you are not being attuned to. You're not. You don't learn that. And so that part about you learn that your emotions don't really matter is a big deal because nothing really happened when they were presented or they were silenced as we'll get to in archetype number three. But that just breaks my heart that part about a nagging sense that something is missing in your life because it is missing. It is missing. That sense of deep connection and deep belonging comes from you sharing how you feel. Right. An emotional truth and, or vulnerability and having it be witnessed, having it be held with love and empathy. That's what you need. That's, that is the antidote to what happened to you.
Jason Lange: Yeah. The good version of this is it's almost like that stuff's pulled out. Right. That attunement is like helping pull that out of you. And then parents, you know, particularly at the young age like you talked about, that's where we learn the skills of interoception. To be aware of what I'm feeling. Oh, this energy in my body is anger. This energy in my body is sadness. This energy in my body is fear. Right. It's through our caregiver, like oh, are you scared right now? It seems like you Might be scared right now. Helping us start to have the structure and language to communicate it. If we don't have that structure and language, you know, like, I didn't. People ask me, how you feeling? I don't know how I'm feeling. I think I'm okay. I don't know. Empty, blank. Like there's no, there's no shape to any of that yet because I didn't necessarily have the attunement to help me get aligned with those things inside. This is also one, I think number two is, you know, that I think the bulldozer thing sometimes happens here where, you know, a feeling is shared, but it's just bulldozed right past, no, we're going, or, you know, just, just do it. Stop crying. Right? Because I don't want to have to deal with you crying right now. So don't, don't be sad. You're fine. You know, this is when I have to, like, really check myself with the kids and I see parents doing it all the time. You're fine, you're fine, you're fine. If I, you know, kids scrape their knee or is feeling sad about something, it's like, no, they're actually not fine. Like, you're teaching them that it, it's normal to not feel comfortable in your body and that they're teaching them that.
Melanie Curtin: Their emotion doesn't matter.
Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly.
Melanie Curtin: Their emotion doesn't matter. Instead of, oh, that hurt, didn't it? Sometimes it's hurt. Yeah, yeah, it's okay. We're going to be, we're going to be hurt for a minute.
Jason Lange: Totally. And then that's absolutely going to follow you all the way into relationship later on.
Melanie Curtin: Yes. And that bulldozer that. I think that's a great point because this, the poignancy of this one, right. Called the silenced child, is that there were moments and every child grow up. Every child starts out expressing. There's no child that doesn't express. Everyone's expressing. And then how the caregivers are responding to that is, is everything. And if they're just not responding or they're bulldozing, then you, you learn to shut it down. That's the thing, is in all of these cases, the child learns to shut it down. And so by the time they're consciously aware, most of the time, they've already learned to shut it down. So there's no time in which. This is why you have to walk it back as an adult and almost like a sleuth, figure it out. Because by the time you get your Prefrontal cortex online. By the time you're aware of yourself in a, in a, in a meaningful way, you've already shut down, you've already, you know, become numb. You've already have a flat affect. You, you're already there. You're already there. It's not like you had time to figure out what happened. It's just, it's just how you are being from, from then. The good news is you don't have to stay there, right? This is not a, this is not a lifetime sentence and this is the whole point of raising awareness. You don't have to stay there, but it is helpful to understand where you came from. And that's part of what happened is you might have been bulldozed, right? You did express and you might have been bulldozed or no one ever asked you, how are you feeling about school? What's happening for you? How's that going? And actually slowing down, sitting in front of you, holding space. We're going to get to archetype number three, but I have a close friend in that archetype. And even well meaning parents can be neglectful. It's not quote again, it's not fault. This is not something they intended, but it is an effect and it's important uncover it. Number three is the invisible child. Invisibility is the main problem for children whose parents were wrapped up in their own lives and their own problems. A parent who lost their partner or who lost their job, or who's struggling with addiction or illness often isn't able to give the child the structure, discipline, love, support that they really need. So a child or teenager who becomes invisible to caregivers is vulnerable because that child or teenager will also often find unsafe replacements for the missing attention. If you were raised this way, you might crave attention as an adult, but you probably also struggle with setting boundaries and find yourself falling for people who hurt you. So getting attention tension can feel like a double edged sword. This one I think is really sad because there are parents who, if for example, our society were structured more fairly, would have more financial resources, they would have more time. But there is so much struggle and, and strife such that, you know, a lot of parents, you know, I'm thinking of, for example, a friend of mine who was essentially raised by a single mom. She was doing everything she could to keep the family together. Just housing and food, just housing and food, housing and food. And so all of her attention was going to basic needs. And those are important, those are important needs. There are parents who work two jobs they commute crazy amounts of time. They are. They have to be doing that. They have to provide the basic physical needs. And so what's tragic is some of them are attuned, empathetic people where if they had more resources and support, they would be more present for their kids, but they don't have it. They don't have the time. They can't be there. And again, it's not about blame, but the effect is the invisible child. Right. It's like I'm working so hard to just provide what's needed here that I don't have time to ask you about your grades. I don't have time to ask you about how it's going in swim class. I don't have time. And so, again, the child doesn't really have that attuned attention. There's a way that they don't really have a parent. They don't really have that role of attuned caregiver who's actually teaching them about emotions and holding space. Right. They're just putting up fires. They're just trying to keep it together. And there's a cost to that.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I think this one gets a bit exasperated too, by the kind of bullshit invention here in the west of the nuclear family, which then, if both parents are having to work, you have a lot more of this, versus in other cultures in the world where there's a lot more multigenerational homes and aunts and uncles that there's still, you know, you might be passed around isn't quite the right word, but you're still getting a time and attention. Maybe it's not always with your parents, but there's like. There's just. There's more people there able to offer this. You know, this is. This is definitely the one, you know, that would. I would identify with of, you know, kind of just existing in a bubble, like you create your own way to get by and a lot of inner fantasy and whatnot here for this one for me, of, you know, playing alone and kind of doing my own things. And, you know, my dad definitely works seven days a week. My mom is often busy. There's lots of kids. You know, I think some of these can play out differently, depending on birth order as well. So I think a lot of middle kids are often kind of the invisible child in a lot of situations because either the youngest kids getting the attention or the eldest. So these things show up in lots. In lots of different. Different ways. But this tends to often be like, what needs, you know, I think kind of Guys like me sometimes, like, I have needs. I don't even know what are my needs. So it's really hard to ask for them in relationship because I've never even considered, like, what do I need in a partnership. And there can be that. That just little insulated bubble that can be hard to. Hard to penetrate.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I was in college. There was a friend of mine who was launching a nonprofit for kids with cancer. And as part of his me, he did a bunch of research and actually talked to a lot of families and children. And essentially what came through was there are actually a lot of resources and support for children who have cancer. There was nothing for the siblings of children who have cancer. What it turned out was those kids felt invisible. There was a lot of attention and care and concern for the child with cancer, which makes sense. But then there's this other kid. I think we've definitely seen that with certain men where either a sibling or a parent, but often a sibling that had a lot of needs, either physical needs or emotional needs. Right. This. This child acted out a lot. Or there was a lot happening with this one sibling. The other sibling just learned to shut it down. Just shut it down. They weren't gonna get. It felt like they weren't getting attention anyway. So what was sort of the point? There was no. There was no point in speaking up or meeting things. It was just. It was pointless. So that is definitely a pattern that we've seen. And I think this might be a great segue for your. Yeah. Your. The research that you cited about the baby in the room with mom, when mom sort of stops responding emotionally.
Jason Lange: Yeah. So obviously my adult to become a parent got very interested in my road to becoming a parent, got interested in child development. This is a pretty famous experiment called the still face baby experiment where they were tracking impact on attachment and, well, being between a mother and infants. Essentially they put a mother in a room with an infant and they'd be connecting and the baby would be happy, and then the mother would just go still face. Basically remove connection and attunement.
Melanie Curtin: This is also known as flat affect, when you just hold completely still. So you're not happy, you're not sad, you're just totally flat.
Jason Lange: And so what this creates. Right. It doesn't mean that the only place this happens is with flat effect, but it's. It's showing the impact on attachment which all these other things we've talked about can. Can. Can be involved in just absentee parenting. Right. Or. Or these different things. But that. That there was kind of a physical for, for what would happen for kids that at first, you know, mom goes away, there's like I want to re engage with her. So I'm going to make a coo or a car or a smile or a cute or a laugh, kind of just playfully try to draw her back in. Okay. That doesn't work. Child starts to get a little stressed out sometimes. That's where kind of crying will come online. So I'm going to, I'm going to wail a little bit, make it clear like hey, I need some support. I'm going to get sad, I'm going to cry. And then kind of in that same step, sometimes one goes before the other but the, the other lever there then becomes kind of anger like, like really trying to get her attention, like kind of getting mad. As that breaks down, literally physiology starts to break down. So posture like kids kind of start to collapse and then they'll turn to self regulating in some sense. So this is, you know, kids would fight themselves self harm a little bit. Masturbation was a big one for me. Like that was a way to self regulate and create, create safety. And then when that doesn't work and like because you can only do that to a certain extent, kids would just totally shut down. Like literally just collapse and into their own thing. And the thing with this research they found was if mom came back within a certain period of time, it was okay. Kid would come back and really bounce back with resilience and be okay and fine. But when it was perpetuated and we've definitely seen this with some of our guys, it's like it doesn't happen all at once. A lot of these things, there's like bids for attention or attachment or security that you know, we can kind of don't get it. Okay, I'm okay, I move on. But there's usually a moment where the light goes out, you know, like literally where it's just the one time where there's a certain amount of consciousness or just a certain amount of trying that it's like the system just shuts down and then doesn't even ask for it anymore in some, some extent. And we've all been impacted by this in different ways because no parent can be a perfect parent, perfectly attuned all the time. But there is a threshold of getting enough engagement from our caregiver that teaches us we're okay in our nervous system or that they may go away, but they will come back and it's okay. Then we learn to be with that anxiety in between. But when that sustained thing, that's when the collapse really happens.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I. I'm reminded too, of, like, I want to say a couple things first. Again, this is not a life sentence. This doesn't. If you were neglected as a kid, it doesn't mean that you're never going to get what you need. Jason, you're a great example of you're in a great marriage, you're a great dad, you have a strong community, you have creative projects. You know, you have a pretty great life. And that's. That's not a given. You did a lot of emotional work to get there. You did a lot of work to get there, but you can get there. So I just want to put that out there first of all. And also, you know that piece about resilience, I was talking to someone else about a study on resilience, and there were three or four things required for resilient adult. And one of them was you needed to be seen by someone before the age of 18, something like that. And it didn't need to be a parent, but you needed to have the experience of feeling seen. And the person I was talking to said it was a teacher, it was a high school teacher that she felt deeply seen by. And it wasn't her parents and it wasn't her grandparents, and it wasn't a family friend. But she did feel like this person saw her as her. Really saw her and her gifts and her experience in the world. And there was something healing about that. Right. Just the experience of feeling seen. Somebody sees me. And I think that's part of what can be restorative about talk therapy. And I think talk therapy has a lot of limitations, but I do think that that's a restorative experience that can happen. Of, wow, this is an attuned adult who actually sees me and knows me, and I don't have to take care of them.
Jason Lange: Right.
Melanie Curtin: It's like, it's a new experience. Like, oh, I didn't even know this was a thing that I could have. And I think it take. Takes all of it, right? It takes the somatic therapy. It takes the. Especially the community. Right. Experience with community is critical. It takes everything to kind of get there. But I do think that that's really inspiring because people who work with kids or youth of any kind can have a deep and sustained impact on those. On those human beings. Even if you're not in the home, if you're working with teenagers or you're working with kids or you're just around them. And you see them and you hold space for them and you do that, especially on a society sustained basis, then you can have a huge effect.
Jason Lange: Yeah, like we hear, you know, I've heard stories from guys, right. When you name that person that all those years later you still remember because it just gave you that right dosage that your nervous system had something that then helped you just keep going and keep surviving in a sense all that time. And it's just that, yeah, there's like a certain dosage and threshold that you need to get it from somewhere. I mean, this is also for, you know, parents listening too. I certainly find it a relief that like, oh, I don't have to get it right every time. Like, it's okay to mess up sometimes, or I'm not fully present sometimes, but as long as I'm mostly doing it. That's. That's really awesome. That's really good. And it can, it does the job, so to speak. Not that I don't want to always improve that, but that, you know, it's enough in that, yeah, you can work this, you know. And one way to think about whether it's somatic or talk or men's group, as I would argue, or coaches some of those relationships is it's giving your nervous system that experience again of secure attachment. Right. Which sometimes can be easier. In particular, you know, therapy still has such a stigma for a lot of guys and families that, you know, we're working hard to blow up a little bit that it's like.
Melanie Curtin: Oh, but they're.
Jason Lange: Just listening to me because I'm paying them. Or it's like, actually no, that's great because then you get the experience of that one way flow where you should not be regulating your therapist. That's right, you are showing up there so they can be curious about you and help you become okay with your experience. And that's the healing thing over time that, oh, this is what the experience is about of someone drawing me out and helping me get clear about my inner state and I'm not having to hold them right now. That's actually what can heal that attachment and bring some of that just back online. That can then impact every relationship out there for you, particularly intimate ones.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I want to segue now because I do want to hear a little bit about your own kind of journey coming through this. What were your relationships like before you were aware that this was part of your background and then how did you kind of get, get to secure attachment? I know that's a big question, but.
Jason Lange: Yeah, you Know, it. It was a process that unfolded in terms of definitely some therapy, definitely a lot of somatic work, definitely men's group, as I've said, and, you know, increasingly learning to ask for what I needed in relationships and being okay receiving it, you know, because as an invisible child, you know, I had had some other relationships where it's not even that the partners weren't willing, but they didn't know how to love me because I didn't know what I needed. Right. So there was kind of an interesting thing there versus a much clearer now about I need some time off or I would love for you to cook for me, or I need some touch or, you know, being able to ask those things. And some of that also comes from, you know, my relationship with Violet is we deeply know each other and each other's families and family trauma and history. So we kind of know what each other need. That was part of the context for us getting to know each other. But, you know, I would say probably beyond even therapy and to some extent even relationship, my kind of primary training ground was men's group.
Melanie Curtin: Right.
Jason Lange: Was having a place I was regularly going to and self reporting and then having people ask me clarifying questions. Like, as simple as that is, in some ways, that's a big part of it. And helping me get to whatever the feelings I was experiencing were underneath and then that being held.
Melanie Curtin: And that's attunement. Yeah, like what you just described. Yeah, that's attunement. Listening and then asking clarifying questions, helping the child to say it, to use the. To use words and to actually share. This is what's. This is what's true for me. Oh, this is what's true for me. It takes a couple pounds. It's not right there.
Jason Lange: So, you know, that was probably my most important, I guess, bridging medicine, in a sense, that helped get me into the relationship where I could take that even deeper with an intimate partner, was having that place to practice, you know, what am I feeling? What am I noticing? And getting feedback from people, too, because sometimes I didn't know what I was feeling. But then when seven people are looking at you, it's like, hey, man, I don't know, you seem just like a little quiet today and kind of like, are you sad? Or, like, what's going on? And then, oh, yeah, I guess I am. I am sad. Here's what's going on. And then feeling safe to. To. To feel that in community. And then for me, you know, the other part was. And this is an Ongoing process. I just did some of this with my dad and had done some previously with my mom. But reopening those channels of okay, like, I kind of see, you know, there. There's a way for me in particular, like I said, with that one relationship, it's easy for me to perpetuate what I was given. So in terms of neglect, and there's a way I had neglected my parents and just connection, revealing my life because I didn't know how and they didn't really know how. But, you know, though, it's not my fault. I do have some responsibility now because I have awareness and tools they don't necessarily have. So for me to make those relationships better, there was some. I'm gonna have to go first stuff here. So, you know, I remember, I think it was one of my explosive growth years in 2015. I think it was through men's group that it just became super clear. I was just like, I want to open that channel with my mom. So I called her on, like a Tuesday afternoon. My whole body was like, I'd made a commitment that I was going to do it, I think, to my group, and I could just. It was, like, so awkward and so weird and like, I don't normally call her on Tuesdays. And so, you know, we're like, chatting for half hour or something, then it's kind of time to wrap up. I was like, hey, this is like, I just. I got to try something different here. And I remember being like, yeah, you know, I've been out here a couple years and, you know, it's been. It's been harder. I had moved to LA five years earlier, and it's been harder than I thought. It's been a challenge. But I just want to let you know I really appreciate all the support you've given me. I felt it, and I love you. I just want you to know I love you. And I could tell it, like, it was like a shock to her system, but it opened something and then she shared it back. We've never had. That's just been an easy thing to share since then, but I kind of had to go first. I kind of had to go first on that one. I had a little more tools than she did at that time. And now we hug, you know, and it's. It's not a problem, so. But that was a part. I think if I had not done that, that also made it easier for me to then bring that energy into my relationship with Violet of, like, sharing that gratitude, sharing that appreciation. That was kind of turned off in my previous relationships. That's one example.
Melanie Curtin: Well, and that's so, it's such a poignant example because it's such a brave thing to do. And I've, yeah, I've witnessed that repeatedly, especially in my, in my friends, that there's a way that we have outgrown our parents. Right? That we, we are more emotionally capable and mature than our parents. And that's just true. That's just what's so. At this point. And it's such an act of generosity and love to go first. And this is, we're not recommending this for abusive parents. This is not, you know, go first with someone that you know is going to hurt you. That's not what we're saying. But when there's, when you can sense that there's a certain level of willingness, there's a certain level of receptivity, there's a certain capacity that they're, they're probably going to respond okay, it's a huge act of love. I've, I've changed patterns with my dad in ways that, you know, I went first and I said, I've never said something like this before and I'm trying something new. And it's because if I don't share this with you, I'm going to be angry and resentful for the rest of the day. I'm probably going to give you silent treatment. It's going to suck. We've both been there before, right? We know how this day is going to go if I don't share what's on my heart right now. So here's what happened. And he has been willing to listen, right? He is receptive, but he is not qualified to lead any emotional dialogue ever. And I understand that. I'm like, this is where he is. His capacity is limited, but it's not non existent. There's something there. And he loves me and he cares and he will listen even when it is excruciating for him, like he's still going to be there. He's not. And there are parents who will leave the room. There are people who will not tolerate it. They will, they cannot handle it and they will leave the room. But that, that act of bravery to actually go first is such a big deal and it's a really powerful indicator of are you going to be able to do romantic relationship? Because that willingness to share yourself and to go first, both people need that in a relationship. You got to have both. Because if you only have one person ready to do that, you're probably going to set up an unhealthy dynamic where that person's always the one going first and the other person's not. But if both people are willing to extend themselves and really share when it's hard, right? That's when the rubber meets the road. And that's the corrective, restorative piece that is so. What is the word? Sacred. Sacred about romantic relationship. When it's done well, you can close some loops from the past and heal in a deeper way than you ever have before, because you will attach to your partner if you're doing. If you're doing it. You know, if you're really in a relationship, man, they are going to become your attachment figure. Right? This is an A equals B situation. It's not an if. It is what you will make them your attachment figure and you will project stuff onto them and they will do the same to you. It's going to happen. And I think a lot of people are sort of surprised by that because they're like, oh, no, I'll. I'll be able to. I'll be able to do it differently. I'll control myself. No, no, you won't. You won't. Because we all do this. This is how it works. And so there's this possibility and potential to do it consciously and to actually be aware, like, wow, I just made you my withholding mom. I just completely did that. I totally. And now I'm freaking out. My whole nervous system is lit up. I can't sleep, like all this stuff. And if you're both able to hold that. That's true, and it's not necessarily someone's fault, but there is a, I think, I would say responsibility. There's a. There's a way to care and love your partner. That is. I understand that part of what we are doing here is. Is learning to soothe each other, soothe each other in ways that we were not soothed when we were children. And I understand. I take on that with you and you take on that with me. And, and that is not the same as that compulsive fixing. I will do anything. It's not that I will do anything for you. It's that I understand this is part of what we're doing here. It's. It's a different quality. And I'm curious if you can speak to that a little bit, as we said, of what your experience has been there.
Jason Lange: I think the difference, particularly for the first one, the burden child, is it's like that person's well being comes at the expense of my own. Right. So it's almost like prioritizing their regulation over my own. And I think this is an important piece that I'll just quickly burn through because it's been such a great frame. I've shared with a lot of guys and I really see the truth of. And I got this from Gabor Mate, who's a therapist, writer, works with addiction, like brilliant guy. But he had just a very simple teaching that, you know, when we're born, particularly as humans, we have two needs. We're not like a lot of other species on the planet in that we are actually born incapable of surviving. Like we need caregivers. When we come out of the womb, we are not ready to walk. We cannot get our own food, cannot even hold ourselves upright. We are dependent. And so we come out with two needs. A need for secure attachment to help us survive. So we have to keep a channel open with whoever is going to help us survive. We also have an innate need for authenticity which is expressing the truth of our experience in the moment. I feel this, I don't feel this, I feel this, I need this, I don't need this now where. And these are just different manifestations in these three. The burden child, silenced child, and the invisible child that we've kind of spoken to. Where the problem happens is when those two come into conflict. So my need for authenticity threatens my secure attachment, right? So if I were to actually share my truth here or my feelings or emotions here, mom, dad, caregiver, might withdraw love or whatever that might be, so that conflict is created really early on and then this is what tends to show up that okay, well then I'll withhold my needs or I won't even be aware of my needs to keep the attachment alive at all expense. When it's optimally, our authenticity goes into space, someone else's authenticity goes into the space, and then we meet each other in that. This is something you and I have had to work with a lot of guys on, particularly as we've started to work with more men who are already in relationships or marriages. If your long term partnership or your relationship is a source of more stress for your nervous system, something is not right doesn't mean it won't sometimes be a stress. But if it is always adding stress to you, something is not right. Ideally, what you were just speaking towards in terms of what we want to create with self aware partners is our container for the relationship becomes a place to soothe each other and regulate each other together. We're both getting that sometimes I'M giving it more sometimes, my wife's giving it more. But overall, our connection with each other is actually making it easier for us to go out in the world and be with the stresses of just being alive. It's not adding to that. And that's a big red flag if it's adding to it. And there's probably some work underneath that that's sourced in one of these three things that might just, you might need to become aware of and learn some tools and techniques and get some community and strategy and coaching around how can I do this differently so that it's going to be different in the future?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think that's a great time to just share quickly before we wrap what secure attachment actually looks like. Right. It's, you know, the, the idea is that the, the child, the caregiver is there. So imagine a child at a playground. The caregiver is there and they are helping regulate the child, but the child is off exploring the, the security. Not about you're constantly gazing into one another's face. It's. The child feels secure to go play, scrape its knee, and when it's hurt, it comes back and there's an attuned caregiver. It's not that it's constantly attuning to the care, it's that you're not gazing into each other's souls all the time. It's that you get to go explore things and know that someone's got my back. Something bad happens, someone's got my back. That's secure attachment. It's not that you're. Yeah, you're just navel gazing at each other. I know we have to wrap, so if you, if you have any questions about this, if this has brought things up from for you, you can email me@dearmen podcastmail.com and I can always share that email with Jason as well. And if you're interested in our work, you can go to Evolutionary Men Dearmen and you can get our free training. So if you're interested in going deeper than the podcast, that's a great place to start.
Jason Lange: Yeah, we'd love to hear more about your story and the stuff really matters. So it's one of those things that a little time and attention on can have huge ramifications for your love life. Huge.
Melanie Curtin: Da da da da da da da da da da da da da.
