When Melanie Curtin and I sat down to record, she asked me about something I see destroying relationships daily: men who can't receive feedback from their partners without going into defense mode. What started as a conversation about communication quickly became an exploration of the deeper nervous system patterns that keep us armored when the people we love most are trying to reach us.
We got into the nervous system piece of this, what's actually happening underneath the surface when criticism lands. For a lot of us men, feedback triggers deep wounds around not being enough. So we lawyer up, we rationalize, we try to explain our side. Which usually just makes our partner feel more unseen and disconnected.
I shared how this showed up in my own marriage with Violet. Early on, I'd immediately jump to explaining the logic of the situation, hoping she'd understand and the upset would go away. What I missed was that she didn't need my rationality. She needed me to be present with her emotion first, to show her I was attuned to what she was feeling.
One tool I've found incredibly useful is what I call the fast food rule. I learned this from a parenting book with my daughter Ruby, but it applies beautifully to partnership too. When you order at a fast food joint, they repeat your order back to you first. You feel heard, there's no miscommunication, and things move forward. Same thing with your partner. Match the emotion, reflect it back, show you get the feeling tone. Then there's an opening for something else to happen.
We also talked about how a woman's criticism often isn't really about the dishes or the errand she's mentioning. There's usually something deeper. She's not feeling loved, not feeling your presence, not feeling met. If you just try to fix the surface stuff without addressing that root, you'll be stuck in the same loop forever.
The real capacity here is learning to feel below her criticism to what's actually true, to where she might be right, to what she's really asking for. And the best place I've found to build that capacity is with other men. In men's groups, you get to practice receiving feedback in a safer container, without all the sexual and relational charge. You learn to stay open, to try feedback on, to feel into what's true and what's not.
Read Full Transcript Full episode text for reading and search
Jason Lange: This is one I've talked about before, like, particularly earlier in our marriage. Yeah. Violet would definitely poke me because, you know, there was still stuff I hadn't touched yet, and I hadn't been as deep in a relationship as I was quite with her, and she would much rather feel my anger than nothing.
Melanie Curtin: All right, guys, welcome back to another episode. I am always pleased to have Jason Lange here with me, my co coach extraordinaire and a fan favorite on the Dear man podcast.
Jason Lange: Welcome back. Good to be back. Our first one in person in a long time.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's very exciting.
Jason Lange: Special occasion.
Melanie Curtin: Yes. Same microphone. So today we're talking about how to be skillful when handling criticism from the feminine. And this is. How do you describe it? It's a sort of constant in relationship. Right. And I think that it's challenging and there are things that can make it easier. And I think also I am going to be naming some dynamics that happen sort of on. On my side or on the. On the side of, I think, a lot of women that might feel hidden or under the surface to a lot of men. So just going to take you behind the curtain there. So. Yeah. So in terms of, you know, handling women's criticism, I'm curious to hear a little from you about how you feel like you did with that early on in your. In your dating life, and then how you feel like you've grown in that. In that way.
Jason Lange: Yeah. So I. I'll just start by saying another way to think about criticism, which, you know, depending on our context and growing up, can have a. A lot of charge with it. Another way this can sometimes come through is just feedback. It's just feedback. Um, so. And, you know, there is a difference, but I think it's important to note that. But certainly something I've had to deeply develop my capacity for in my marriage. And I think that's an important word, that this is a capacity. Like, it's like a skill we can actually build up to stay open while receiving without collapsing or defending. And for me, I mean, nothing particularly special or different from how a lot of men respond to criticism, which is to, like, defend or shift the blame or rationalize. Like, probably my biggest tendency when I would get feedback or criticism from Violet, my wife, would be to try to explain my side of things. So if she just understood the rationality of the situation, it would mean make sense. Which, yeah, it's kind of true. And a lot of the times she would experience as trying to make her emotions wrong.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, right.
Jason Lange: Like. Like. Well, if you Just understood you wouldn't feel that.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Because what you're feeling is actually wrong. Because you don't understand.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. You shouldn't be upset because I didn't mean that.
Jason Lange: Totally. And so the hope would be if I could just explain it, the upset would go away.
Melanie Curtin: And I think that's a good in segue into. It's not that I don't want to hear your explanation as a woman. It's not that I don't want to hear your explanation. It's a matter of the order of how things happen. I first want you to attend to where I am feeling, what I am feeling right now in the moment. I really want your presence. I want you to be with me in this experience first. And then the explaining. It's not that I don't want to hear it, but it's a little bit like you got to preheat the oven and then bake the cake. You can't just stick in the cake. You got to, like, you know, there's got to be context for it. And the context is I'm experiencing upset right now. I'm upset because of this hear me, feel me, be with me, step one, and then we can talk about the rest of it. And I'm in a different. I'm in a different emotional place. After I've been felt and heard and attended to really deeply, then I feel differently and I can hear more.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that's a key piece of, like, the connect and feel and resonate first, and then there's openness to the after. But I think where we often go wrong as men and where I often went wrong was trying to skip that step, which would then make her feel like I wasn't listening, wasn't connected to her, didn't care, wasn't on her side. Like, all kinds of different things would come through which would actually make her more upset, and then it would kind of bring perpetuate, you know, more disconnection between us.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: But that, that, you know, this is something we sometimes talk about with our guys, that I've. I've learned quite a bit, you know, and a lot of my lenses have shifted as a parent now, seeing my daughter Ruby grow up and being with her in that experience.
Melanie Curtin: And she's two.
Jason Lange: She's two. So she's at an age where her emotions are much bigger than her cognition or her ability to communicate it. And it was through a parenting book, I learned about this thing called fast food rule, which I think is a great, great tool, which is it's Just like a quick way to think about this. First, like, match, and then. And then, like. But first you got to match. And the fast food rule in this parenting book was like, when you go to a fast food joint and you list off all the things you want, the first thing they do is they say your order. Exactly. Back to you. So. And then you're like, yes, great. That's it.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: And so you feel heard and seen, and there's no miscommunication, and the orders kind of everything moves forward. So in. In parenting, particularly with toddlers, the idea is, you know, and I still do this sometimes too, trying to go to rational. Well, you don't understand. We gotta wait and do. Which there's not even the cognitive capacity for her to receive that yet. So. So it's a really great training ground for this tool of first, like, match the emotion and reflect that. I understand what you're feeling. Particularly with kids, sometimes you have to help give them words for what they're feeling. Wow. You seem really mad right now. Right? Mad. And the way that rule teaches is it's like, actually match the energy back like 20 or 30%, which, more than words, also conveys, like, I'm getting the emotional tone or quality. And it's pretty amazing. It doesn't, you know, it's not like a magic thing, but when we hit it, her whole nervous system relaxes because she's like, oh, you guys get me. Yeah. And then there's like an opening, and then there's like a shift of energy or a potential. But when we do the other parenting thing, which I've still fallen prey to and certainly see a lot in public of, you know, don't be the way you are, stop crying or do the thing or. You don't understand. It just drives, you know, it just makes it way worse. Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: It turns the volume up instead of down.
Jason Lange: Yeah. So there's a way, you know, it's. You know, it's different. Obviously. It's not like, treat your woman like a kid, but the idea of match the energy a little bit.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: To show her I'm listening. I'm attuned to you, and I can reflect back your feeling state right now. And I'm willing to first be with you in that.
Jason Lange: Absolutely, yeah. I definitely have much more range, I think could put way to put it in my access to my emotions and how quickly they come and that my willingness to just keep going into them has made much easier to be present with Violet and hers and that that tied with, you know, just the experiences we've had long term and some of the things we've talked about before of not learning to not fear the storm or fear her emotions and just be with her in them. My whole capacity. Yeah. And all that work I've done with other men to be able to access those things and those pockets of shame or disgust or anger or grief or whatnot. Yeah, it just makes me much more comfortable with being with any of that, actually welcoming it and not, you know, not fearing it. And you know, I. I think both ways from me towards her and her towards me, when that happens, I. It's often experienced as oh, love. Because this person's accepting all of me, right?
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: Versus rejecting a part of me. They want to be different. Which I think is often, you know, a feeling a lot of feminine partners have of. And how this whole criticism thing, you know, becomes a pretty common dynamic, you know, no matter what kind of configuration you're in, if there's masculine and feminine energy, you know, the feminine part of us often fears them too much.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: The masculine part of us fears I'm not enough.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: And I can never get it right. So the criticism comes at us. It triggers, well, I can't do it. I'm not enough. So I need to explain to her to not feel the way she's feeling. And then she's like, fuck, you won't be with me and my feelings too much. And then, like, it just kind of spirals out of control. And both people often feel hurt. So part of this capacity for. I think being with criticism is, yeah, learning to stay open to that. Learning to listen and not defend right away, but just be with her in the emotion, reflect the emotion. And then there can be different conversations later on, but it's first, like, lean into the criticism or lean into the work. And I think that's a practice that, you know, we help a lot of men with strengthening their nervous systems and their capacity to be present. And a big part of that is how open can I stay when receiving feedback or receiving criticism? And that's a place where, you know, not. Not to be too harsh, but a lot of men are pretty fragile, like, receiving feedback because it does trigger these deep, I'm not enough. My dick's not big enough. I'm not a good enough lover. I don't make enough money. You know, wounds I've totally felt. So I'm not, you know, not meaning to make those small. But our capacity to kind of to. To be with that goes up as we can kind of receive more criticism and stay open in that process. It's not that it still doesn't hurt. It's just rather than immediately closing or defending, there's, like, a willingness to just kind of get some. Get some feedback, be with the emotions and not have to immediately fix it or change things. That's also a big one. You know, I definitely know for a lot of guys, it's pretty. And something you've certainly seen in your research is a big part of, you know, connecting in the bedroom.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Like, for a lot of men, getting. Getting any kind of feedback on their. On their sexuality can be really hard. Like, oh, my God, you know, she's never going to want to be with me or I'm never going to be able to, versus, like, it's just data. I think you and I were talking on my show a while ago, and I loved the analogy you've been using of, like, you're learning to drive a car. Every car is a little different. Doesn't mean you're a shitty driver.
Melanie Curtin: Right. You just.
Jason Lange: You have to learn the nuance of that person.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Works for them and be willing to kind of have a little back and forth. And your ability to do that as a man, I think, is part of your ability to receive criticism, receive feedback, and just stay open without having to make it different immediately, to just be with what is in her emotions. And that gets a lot easier. The more you do this work with other men, the more you open, the more you can express yourself, the more it's easy to be with other people in that space, I've definitely found. Because then there's also not a fear of, like, getting trapped there, which I know some men are like, oh, you know, if I haven't touched my grief, sometimes it feels like a tidal wave. And there's like a fear if I go there, I can never get. Get out. So it's like constantly doing whatever we can to not feel those feelings. And again, all this work, men's work and coaching work you do with guys helps just create more space around all that in our capacity to be with what is.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And the, the criticism piece around sex. So, for example, in the research, one thing that was extremely clear is that when men are using their hands or their fingers, it's usually too much pressure, very quite rough. And. And it actually hurts. And so in my research, you know, the number one sex problem for women was it hurts. Pain. And some of that is, he's touching me too. It's too hard. It's too hard. It's too fast. It's too rough with his hands or fingers. It's so hard for me as a woman to say, ow, that hurts. Can you slow down or be a little bit more gentle? Because I'm terrified that he's gonna collapse.
Jason Lange: Right.
Melanie Curtin: So me offering. I think that's a great example of, you know, we used the word criticism in the title, and it, and it, it's. It's in this sphere. But to your point, where is the line between feedback and criticism? I think sometimes the tone, the way that we say it, is like, ow, that's too rough. Slow down. It's the same words, but the tone is harsh versus, like, ow. Oh, that actually really hurts. Can you slow down? But depending on the man, he might still hear the second one as criticism, because what he hears is, you're doing it wrong. And then that might, like you said, cascade into you never do it right. You're worthless. You're valueless. All of this other stuff going on for him. And we're not oblivious to that. Right? As human beings, many of us are scared to tell the truth. We're scared to be honest with other people because we're scared of them taking it as criticism. So another quick example. Just talking to someone about this is going down. Going down on someone. Sometimes it's like, I'd love to go down on you if you take a shower. And that, again, you can interpret that as, you're a disgusting, dirty person and I don't like having sex with you. Or you can interpret it as, oh, you'd love to go down on me, Let me go take a shower. But it's so terrifying for a lot of us who grew up in homes where parents did take things personally all the time, or siblings or whoever it was. But what we observed was don't tell the truth and definitely don't do it in a harsh tone, because you will be punished. You will be punished. You will either be hit or, or, or, or somehow, you know, punished physically. Or I'll take all my love away. Yeah, I'm just going to take all my love away. You're going to be alone. And for a lot of people, myself included, it's actually worse. That's actually worse. I'd rather someone gets angry with me but tells me what the fuck's happening than just leaves and just goes away. And that also showed up in the research was, I'm not afraid that if I tell you this man, the truth, that he'll. That he'll punish me. I'm afraid he'll leave. He'll just leave. He'll never come back. So I think that that line of what, what is feedback and what is criticism? It's a lot about how you're interpreting it. It's not all about how you're interpreting it. I want to be clear. Passive aggression is real. And there is a way to, to jab someone, and that's. That's real, separate from your interpretation. But then there is a whole world of things that we take personally that we feel criticized by, that are actually can be also taken as feedback. And so, to your point, as a man grows in his capacity, it feels like there's more range around. Oh, this is actually feedback. I'm actually getting some important data here instead of before, it would feel like an attack. And what do we do when we're attacked? We defend.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Or we attack back.
Melanie Curtin: Or we attack back.
Jason Lange: Yeah, Definitely is a big one for a lot of guys. And I think that the energy of that difference, the criticism versus feedback, I think is in my experience, criticism has a, it does have a little bit more of a jab of like, I'm using this and I want you to hurt.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I want you, I want you.
Jason Lange: To hurt versus, like, hey, here's my experience right now. You know, something's not working for me. Or here's, here's my truth. Like, it's not about hurting people. It's actually about wanting for us to come together in more harmony or some kind of way. Um, so sometimes there is that kind of. There is an intent to hurt on both sides that. And sometimes there isn't. And what's actually happening is feedback is triggering our unhealed.
Melanie Curtin: Yes, yes. And that's what's complicated about the subject because it's not always clear what's one or what's the other.
Melanie Curtin: Right.
Jason Lange: So the jab. And this is where the problem of like quickly going to rationality or defense actually totally misses it is sometimes that surface level thing is actually driven by something deeper. So. And oftentimes what that in my experience and certainly in my lived experience has shown up as is my partner isn't feeling loved and isn't feeling my presence or engagement. And so there's like a poke or a criticism about this thing or this errand or something to handle around the house. And.
Melanie Curtin: Right. It's like. Did you pick up the almond butter?
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: Did you pick up the almond butter? You said you were gonna pick it up.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: Which is like. It's not about the almond butter.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Or like dishes, you know, one that's. That's happened in my, my house the last year or so that you know it. Yes. She would love it if, you know, sometimes the dishes were just done. But even deeper than that, there's like a. She's feeling missed. Like she's just not feeling me with her, like on a day to day level in terms of our connection and my attunement to her and my presence. And she's not necessarily feeling loved. And that then drives all this surface stuff.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: There's a way we can try to fix all the surface stuff that never hits the. Hits the root of it. And I think that's where developing this capacity to stay open with feedback or criticism and feel down into the core of it, which oftentimes this, you know, this stuff comes at us. What can be the most useful thing is to just pull our partner close and be like, baby, I hear you and I love you. Right. And there's. And then just have a moment.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And then something else happens and then, you know, a deeper layer emerges that it's not that you can't then create agreements or structures around the other thing, but if that root isn't addressed, usually these things just go on forever.
Jason Lange: Do you love me? I don't feel loved right now. You know, are you there? Do you care? Are you paying attention? And, you know, this is one I've talked about before, like, particularly early in our marriage. Yeah. Violet would definitely poke me because, you know, there was still stuff I hadn't touched yet. And I hadn't been as deep in a relationship as I was quite with her. And she would much rather feel my anger than nothing.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And I would just kind of like collapse or disappear, check out or check out to it. So she would poke me to. If anger was the only thing that she could get to get, like, okay, at least we're feeling angry in the same space together. That feels better than. That's still a kind of connection.
Melanie Curtin: Can you do you remember at all, like what the poke sounded like? Because I think that that concrete feeling that like what, what did it actually come out? Was it about almond butter? Was it like.
Jason Lange: Yeah, it was. Let's see. I'm trying to think back to some instances. You know, it would be. It would be little things that would end up triggering, like, I'm not enough. It's just. It really is that like on, on your side? Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: Okay.
Jason Lange: You know, I'm just not feeling very connected to you.
Melanie Curtin: Okay.
Jason Lange: Like, yeah, you know, like there would be ways that would kind of come out and then it would just escalate, escalate, escalate. And I would come back rationally with, oh my God, you know, I'm so devoted to you. I'm doing all these things for you. And I would miss the central point of like, yes, but I don't feel close to you. That's what she was really kind of arguing. But there'd be all this other stuff that would be like pointing to that initially would miss that.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: And then as I've, I've gotten better and learned. Okay. That's the, that's the thing. Like, is she feeling loved right now? Which usually means am I being present with her, am I slowing down to connect with her and resonate with her in her emotional experience? You know, like that and that capacity and the ability to do that. It's one of the many reasons I continually, you know, drill into guys heads of the power of men's work and men's groups, if that's a really safe place to learn how to do all this.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great point about practicing it with other men. I'm thinking about, you know, groups where a guy is sharing something that's really hard. Like, let's say, you know, his brother is really sick or something's going on. He's like, I just feel, like, really helpless. And you can see. You can see it in a group. You can see some men who get really uncomfortable, and they try to just solve it. So, like, well, at least you're there for him. They'll say something like that, or they'll. They'll. They're trying to make it. They think they're trying to make it better. But I think this is very similar to what we're talking about of really. They're uncomfortable sitting in discomfort. They're uncomfortable sitting in. This is a situation that just sucks. And we're going to feel grief for a minute. And you can see them, like, it's so uncomfortable for them to do that that they try to solve the guy's problem. And sometimes we'll slow it down as coaches and say, what's going on for you? Blah, blah, blah. Sometimes we won't. And sometimes the man will actually speak up. And you see different dynamics, but it's very similar. Where it's like, that sucks, man. Just being with him in it is often all he needs to have it feel met. He just wants to feel met. And that's a good example of we've all got the masculine and feminine inside of us. And his feminine is saying, I'm hurting, I feel powerless. And all that part of him wants is, I'm with you in that. I'm with you in that.
Jason Lange: I get that. I feel that, I feel that with you.
Melanie Curtin: That's it. That's it. That's, that's the move. And so many of us weren't trained in that move in our families that you can see on a call who's comfortable being there and who wants to fix it. And that's kind of share point, a skill you can build with other men. That, where it's lower stakes, it just, it is lower stakes. You know, you're not going to trigger that. You know, you can, you can have interactions there where it's not like everything's going to fall apart because you didn't, you know, meet this man in the way he needed and you're going to get some feedback and you're going to grow. But in relationship it just feels like a lot of times the stakes are so much higher. And you know, to your point of that resistance, right, that let's say with, with your woman, you're trying to fix it and she's now getting more upset and more upset and then, and that's triggering you because you're like, oh God, oh God. I wanted it to go the other way. It's just spiraling where, you know, in a men's group there's also, there's some holding, there's some holding of the container by everyone that's there that, you know, a relationship also doesn't have. It's just two people, they've got a lot riding on it. There's attachment stuff, there's all this stuff going on, whereas you can slow it down and do different things and, and.
Jason Lange: There'S other people witnessing it that they can then reflect on what they were seeing in the interaction. Like there's just so much possible and part of, I think what makes it such an amazing tool for developing a lot of these capacities and you know, I think what is really one of the central skills that can make you a indispensable man in your career and as a lover in the world is a willingness to turn towards feedback, like, and just not be afraid of it. And just like okay, great. Okay, let me take that in. Let me think about that. Let me not collapse around it. Let me feel into where that's true. Where that's right. How I can work with that and stay open. Because the ability to do that is honestly kind of the most important skill these days. If you're learning a new job or a career or doing anything new. And that's. You know, I know one area I've fallen prey to before that I sometimes see guys, other guys fall prey to is, like, we got to get it right. Like, there's a perfect way to do it, and I can't. If I can't do it that way, then I'm like, a. A failure versus, like, no. What matters is your capacity to kind of learn, which is just staying open with feedback, trying to implement it. And, you know, this is something I work with a lot of our guys around. It's like, what we talk about is, like, recovery time, how fast you can kind of come back to center if you get knocked off, if you collapse or if you get some kind of feedback, like, you take it in, and then you just kind of come back, come back, and you just get back to it, and you get back to it in a lot of ways. That's just such a powerful capacity. And as you continue to develop that, you can continue bringing it into relationship and welcome a woman's experience and feedback and criticism and, you know, get to that amazing point of, like, is there more? Like, bring it. Like, I want it. All of it. I want all of you. I want to know what's going on in there. I'm not afraid, not afraid of your feedback because I want to know what's true for you so I can love you more. Right. And then when you can get there, it's just awesome. It's a really powerful place. And then there can be some I've seen, certainly in my partner, even deeper openings, because then there's just, like, more relaxation on her side that I don't have to, like, hold this.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Worried about hurting him.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: Which is, you know, such a powerful tool. And then she'll often feel method. The feminine just wants to feel met by the masculine, which means you got to move towards her.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: Not away from her, not try to deflect her.
Melanie Curtin: Or brace against her.
Jason Lange: Or brace against her. There's like, okay, this is your emotion. Let's, let's, let's be with that. Let me be with you in this right now. And that's the game changing tool that if you can learn to do that. Whether it's criticism, which hopefully over time moves more towards feedback as both partners become more skillful or just clean feedback, even your capacity to kind of bring that depth to the moment and lead her into a deeper place, into her heart can just make you an indispensable lover and just lead to an awesome, awesome relationship.
Melanie Curtin: And I think there's something too about that, you know, that resonance. Like, I was just having an experience where I had a bad experience with a cashier and I was with a guy friend and I was like clearly having a bad experience with this person. And then right after we were like ordering separate things and he was like really nice to her and I was really irritated. I was like, I just want you to hate the same people I hate. Like, I don't, I don't need you to like be a dick to her, but just get through the transaction and move on. Don't like be saccharine or extra sweet or try, try to somehow make up for this bad interaction that I had. Like, I just want you to hate the same people I hate.
Jason Lange: Right.
Melanie Curtin: And there's something about that that I've heard from other women of like, it's like a loyalty thing. Or it's like, I want to feel.
Jason Lange: You'Re on my side.
Jason Lange: Like, I think this is, like, you know, an adjacent to a lot of what we've been talking about of even with its criticism. Oftentimes there's something deeper going on, and it's usually just wanting to feel resonance that the feminine sometimes, in my experience, really wants. Right. So with this kind of experience that you're describing, or definitely something that used to happen and just trigger my wife like, crazy, or she would. It wouldn't even be about me that, like, the issue or whatever she was upset about, but she would come and explain things to me, and I would still do the same move where I would try to go to rational or explain their perspective or, you know, you haven't thought about this or could be this. And it would make her so upset because she would experience that as, why are you taking their side? Why can't you just be with me and, like, back me up? Is the word I've heard a lot in this stuff and learning that, ah. Actually, what she wants in those moments is just to feel me with her in the discomfort of that emotion. Yeah, like, what a. What an experience.
Melanie Curtin: Oh, that sucks.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Melanie Curtin: Oh, that sucks.
Jason Lange: I've gotten way better at that. And this is not something I've created. So this is a tool I got from my side art. As. As a director, I was in a directing class, and they were talking about one way to work with actors. And this amazing teacher I worked with calls it bad friending. So as a director, you come in and you're like the best bad friend. Or you're like, you're asking about the situation, what's going on, and then you're just 100% on their side, like, oh, my God, you're right.
Melanie Curtin: I can't believe she said that. What a. Yeah, what an awful thing.
Jason Lange: You were so right, and she's just so wrong. And she. She deserves that right. She deserves to get it. And, you know, there's like, a little bit over the top in that version of it, but there's like, the. That's really helped me in terms of how I can relate to Violet sometimes is to like, oh, come in with that energy and, like, yeah, you're right. That just. That kind of sounds what a. Or that's just an awful person. Or, like, just. That's a horrible situation. And, like, you deserve better. And it works. She feels met, she feels resonated and, and then usually. And then usually she can figure it out.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, 100%. That's the other thing.
Jason Lange: There is a little bit of like a patriarchal, like, I got to fix this thing that sometimes underlines all this versus like she just wants me to feel the emotions with her. And then she can go, yeah, she's got it.
Melanie Curtin: She's a grown ass woman. She can, she can figure it out. And often I have found that, that when I feel really met, when someone meets me in my rage or whatever it is, then I'm like, well, maybe that cashier was having a bad day. Or I get there, I fucking get there. But step one, if I don't get step one, oof. It doesn't feel good. It does not feel good. And it definitely doesn't want to make me open my legs to that person. I'm like, no, if you're not on my side, I'm not going to fuck you. You gotta be on my side. Because it doesn't feel, feel like safe or something. It's like, well, I guess I'm alone in the world. Something like, I guess I'm alone in the world and I have to fight my own battles and no one's here with me and all the stories start up and it's this whole thing versus I can get, I can get to the mature place, I can get to the spiritual place, but I gotta go through the muck first. And I really want my man to be in the muck with me. And I think I'm, I'm, you know, I'm curious. In your experience, it sounds like this being the bad friend has really smoothed out a lot of interactions that maybe would have taken more energy before or.
Jason Lange: So much easier too, because then I don't. I'm like liberated from the responsibility, I think, of having to fix the situation.
Melanie Curtin: Oh man, that's really brilliant what you just said.
Jason Lange: Yeah, all I need to do with her is like, be with her right now and like, kind of. Yeah, I get it. Like that sounds really shitty. And then it's like over. Yeah, I mean, not that that's. I want it to just be over, but like, it's actually faster. More effective.
Melanie Curtin: Faster.
Jason Lange: Yeah, but the thing we're trying to get to through the other strategies is just like get in there with the emotions and match them and like show her I get them and I'm with her in that. And I don't need her to be any different. I don't need the situation to be any different. Yeah. And then something relaxes in our dynamic, and that's. You know, I'm still working that one, but it's definitely one I've gotten positive feedback on. Like, yeah, you've gotten a lot better at that. You know, I just felt you with me in that, and it's like, oh, great. Awesome. It pays off.
Jason Lange: There's always criticism. And even when you've made meaningful strides to address it, the criticism just keeps coming with no acknowledgment of the effort. Those are. Those are total red flags.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Going on. Get some feedback from a coach or other men and like, hey, how does this feel for you? And don't, like, get stuck in that. Because we have worked with guys who've gotten stuck with that for a long, long time. And when that becomes your reality, you don't know there's any difference of, like, oh, wow, okay, now it's not me. It's like some historical stuff. Often our partners.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: They're wounding. Just mapping it onto us perpetually. What we're talking about is, you know, may start as criticism. When we're both triggered, it may be criticism. But overall, there's like a. A desire to feel harmony in the relationship and be close with each other and make meaningful effort towards each other and be generous with each other. And that's where this, as men learning to receive criticism as feedback or stay open to it or feel below it really Comes from your capacity to, you know, to be open and to be present and to be anti. Fragile.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Which is resilient.
Jason Lange: Like you said, resilient is resilience. It's, it's another way to think about vulnerability, a willingness and an ability to stay open with uncertainty or discomfort and feel it.
Melanie Curtin: To feel discomfort. Yeah.
Jason Lange: This is uncomfortable right now. And I'm going to breathe and stay with you and let's see where this goes, Right?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think that's, it's worth noting. I think a lot. We've worked with a lot of men where the strategies that they've employed to not feel uncomfortable are pretty advanced. So whether it's, you know, weed or video games or porn or sugar or Netflix or some combination or write alcohol, it's like they, they, they're not even really aware this is why I'm drinking. Right. It's like they don't know I'm. I'm watching porn. To not feel uncomfortable or to feel my rage or something triggered them at work. Whatever it is, it's very elaborately constructed ways that we found to not feel those things. Yeah. And so, you know, in the program that we run for men, one of the first things addresses this. And a lot of men end up feeling things that they haven't felt for a long time. And they're like, whoa, is this working? Yeah, I signed up, right? Exactly. I signed up, so I feel better. What the fuck? And we're like, no, that's, that's what, it's working. It's working. You got to stick with it. And it, and it's a little bit like when you start working out again after, after you haven't. And I've accepted. Experienced this several times. I'm like, I am so sore. I'm uncomfortable all day for like a good 10 days. A good 10 to 14 days. And we're not saying that all of your emotional issues will be resolved in two weeks, but it's a pretty good analogy of I thought I was going to feel better. And there are ways in which I feel better, but I also feel really uncomfortable for a while.
Jason Lange: And that is the capacity piece, though you learn with that.
Melanie Curtin: Yes.
Jason Lange: With deeper discomfort in yourself, you're going to be able to be in the uncomfortable situations with a romantic partner and.
Melanie Curtin: It fucking pays off. Like this guy, now that's in this relationship that I referenced. This is probably one of the best relationships of his life. It's a healthier dynamic than he's ever experienced. He's more in his power you know, the things that you want are on the other side of this. It's not like this is just random shit you're throwing into the window, throwing at the wall, hoping it works. It's tried and true. We've watched men go through it and it is, it is how you build the foundation of a healthy relationship. And you get, you get so much more on the other side. You know, when you were saying, I welcome that, I'm like, bring it all, what else you got? I'm like, oh, wow. Like, there's just a way that my body's like, whoa, this guy is so incredible. And it's like you said, this other level of possibility, which I think we've referenced third stage relating, I think really the feminine truly opening and, and that feeling that you referenced of holding, I find that a lot. I'm, I'm kind of holding a lot in all the time to try to not trigger other people, especially men, because I'm afraid of their reactions. The idea of like being able to relax that and just actually be where I'm at is like catnip. I'm like, oh my God, that's fucking possible. Like, that sounds like heaven. Basically.
Jason Lange: It's far more flow. Right. Which again, you know, it's not that we do all this just to have better sex, but hey, one of the benefits.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah.
Jason Lange: Sex is a woman who is embraced all the time is going to be more open and more in her flow and the sex is going to be better. She's going to be more likely to want it.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And she's going to be more likely to have really deep orgasms.
Jason Lange: Yes, totally.
Melanie Curtin: Really deep, intense, mind expanding, you know, waves of energy. All of that stuff. It is, it's related to all of this that we're talking about.
Jason Lange: Yeah. It comes down to your presence and your willingness to, you know, be with her in all she's experiencing and feeling, which a huge part of is welcoming her feedback, not being afraid of criticism, staying open to it. You know, there's training you can do to get better at that in terms of. At a root level in your nervous system. And then, yeah, tools and techniques and strategies for communication. Communication and reflection and how to communicate, you know, how to speak in a way that elicits cleaner feedback and whatnot that you can learn. But at the root there's just a willingness to. To be with intensity.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, a willingness to be with intensity. That's a really good way of putting it because I think I've hidden my intensity most of my life because I felt like it's too much because it.
Jason Lange: Is too much for a lot of men.
Melanie Curtin: It's true.
Jason Lange: Part of why a lot of women are walking around like this, guys, is they have maybe let something out sometime, and then the thing they fear the most is he leaves or he shuts down, and it's like, oh, guys can't handle this, so I can't be fully myself, so I am going to walk around slightly braced. And when they do meet a man who can just welcome the totality of them, there's like a. Oh. And that's what makes you. You know, it's not the greatest word, but like valuable or special or unique or desirable as a man. Not your abs. It's not your paycheck. It's not your status. It's. It's like your capacity to just.
Melanie Curtin: It's you. It's your presence. Yeah.
Jason Lange: And her connection that is the game changer and that this is one very specific way that shows up.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So I'm wondering, as we. As we wrap up here, you know, I feel like your. Your capacity in your relationship has been a marriage, not to use that word, but a marriage of the personal growth work that you had already done coming into the relationship, and then. Then the ma. The matching of that, but growth in partnership and then growth before partnership. And. Yeah, I guess I'm just wondering if you're. If there's guys listening out there. They're like, yeah, I want to get better at this. You know, this sounds great. I want to be. What. What do you feel like are things they can do to help.
Melanie Curtin: Somatic therapy, great places to start. Yeah. And if you are interested in our work, you can go to Evolutionary Men Training. If you want to go deeper than the podcast, we offer a free training, you can check us out.
Jason Lange: Absolutely.
