183: “I’m fine.” Handling passive aggression with grace | Dear Men

Melanie Curtin: And that is scary for a lot of people. Conflict is scary, especially if you grew up in a home with domestic violence or other kinds of explosive personalities. You're terrified to directly address things that you know might piss off the other person, which. Which we all know our upset can be very triggering to other people. So we don't share it. We avoid it. So instead, when she says, is there something wrong? It feels like there's something wrong. There's a part of you that's trying to protect you. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode. This one is just perfect for the holidays. We're talking about passive aggression. Glad to have Jason Lange with me again. Thanks for being here.

Jason Lange: Glad to be back.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. Today we're talking about passive aggressive behavior, which is so prevalent in our world and particularly, I think, in romantic relationships, as well as family dynamics. And many of us are seeing family this holiday season or choosing not to see family because boundaries. But either way, I think exploring passive aggression is very worthwhile, especially with respect to relationship dynamics, because I think there's a way that passive aggression is almost like battery acid. Like it can eat away at a connection and make it feel unsafe, make this sort of space you're in feel unsafe, which doesn't lead to hot sex or grounded connection. It's kind of the opposite of that. So, yeah, I guess we can just start by. By. Yeah.

Jason Lange: What.

Melanie Curtin: What would you say is kind of your definition of passive aggressive behavior? And when have you noticed that showing up in yourself?

Melanie Curtin: I'm glad you spoke to that because I do think there's different kinds of passive aggression and one of them is not doing something right. So you, one of your housemates discusses doing the dishes and they're like, I'd love if you did more of your dishes because it seems like there's always a lot of mugs, whatever. And if you non committally say yes or don't really respond and then just don't do the dishes, that's also passive aggressive because you're not totally said directly addressing. Actually let's talk about this because I don't always want to do my mugs in the evenings. I'm wondering if we can find another solution or have a bin where I put them or the direct addressing of the thing is I think what most of our families of origin did not model. So I think, at least for us, most of our clients, I would say, had households where passive aggression was the means of communication about upset. There were very few open and direct repair conversations or direct conversations about what was going on. It was a lot more under the surface or people. Again, like you said, you know, you hurt my feelings by being late the other day. I'm going to get you back by being late to pick up this thing that you need. But I'm not going to say that's why. Right. It's a lot of just subterfuge and that kind of subtle jabby kind of feeling which feels really terrible. Feels really terrible. Usually for me I feel it in my stomach when I'm receiving passive aggression. And I think when I'm being passive aggressive, it feels more like in my head like very heady and kind of like a, like a pressure in my head. I'd like to give a couple of examples to kind of make this concrete. So what I've noticed in my, in my own passive aggressiveness and I'd like to come back to what you said about withdrawing after this is, I'm much more of like a jabby pokey, like saying a comment but in a mean way, right? Like, oh, well, I guess, I guess that's fine if you don't come, right? Which is like, of course the meaning is opposite. It's not fine with me that you don't come or whatever. Whatever I'm saying, what's, what I'm really saying is I'm angry with you, but I don't want to say the words I'm angry with you because that's vulnerable or I'm not ready to go there. And so I'm saying these other things, but really the tone, everything is, everything is saying I'm angry with you, even if I'm talking about a baking pan. So this happened not long ago where I was there, there was a creepy thing that happened and I was scared, it was at night and I called a really good friend of mine and he wasn't available because he was doing something else. And I think that what happened was I was in a little bit of a regressed state, right? I was scared, it was nighttime, I didn't know what to do. There was this creepy thing going on and I was calling him for support and he didn't pick up the phone. He wasn't available. I ended up getting support in a different way. But I think that there was a young part of me that was kind of upset in the same way that a child would be upset of like, where were you when I needed you? Where were you when I needed you? And I wasn't particularly aware of this. I was a little bit more distant with him for a few days and then on there was a holiday or something and I was being kind of bitchy and I noticed that I didn't want to be around him. I didn't want to, we're all going to go for a walk. And I was like, I don't want to go because he's going, Things like that, little things. I was just kind of cold, right? Like cold shoulder, silent treatment, that kind of thing. Which I didn't really know why. All I knew in my body was I don't want to be around this person. I'm annoyed, it felt like annoyance, etc. And what I discovered eventually and talked to him about was, oh, this is all traced back to that moment where you weren't there when I needed you. And that was irrational, right? I'm a grown ass woman, you're not responsible for me, you're not my parent. Right. And, and, and I know that intellectually, but that young part of me doesn't know that and is still there. And so reconciling, that was important. And I eventually did sort of have a direct conversation to say, this is what happened. And I avoided telling you that I, that this, that this part of me was pissed at you for not being available because it's irrational. Like, when I have feelings that I deem irrational, they don't make sense logically. You shouldn't be at my beck and call all the time. That's not your fucking job. You're just my adult friend. You're not my parent. And so when I have feelings that are irrational, I sort of tuck them away. Or I'm like, well, that's not really there, which doesn't work. And the thing is that when we discussed it directly, he was really, you know, receptive because I wasn't being passive aggressive in the direct conversation. I was being honest. I said, I think I was, you know, irrationally mad at you for not being there when I needed you. And I felt guilty about that because you're not, you're not beholden to me, you're not responsible for my well being, you're not my parents. But I projected that onto you because you're a person I feel safe with. And that's work with a bull. Right? He was able to work with that because we were actually discussing the thing that matters. We were actually discussing the hurt underneath all of the rest of the crap instead of, well, why didn't you, you know, you said you were going to do that. You said you knew that thing for me yesterday and you didn't do it. It's like, it's not really about that thing yesterday though. So there's not a lot to work with there if you're not getting to the real vulnerability. And so I think a lesson I took away from that was, oh, one of the reasons I can be passive aggressive is when I don't feel like I have the right to be angry. When I don't actually feel like I have the right to be angry about what I'm angry about, I do passive aggressive things instead. Because that part of me that's angry is not going away. It's like, nope, I'm here, I'm pissed. And like, we're doing this, like this is happening. And I think that's common for a lot of people. And I'm wondering if you can maybe speak to that in terms of your own experience with realizing, oh, actually I am angry about this thing that happened a little while ago. And have you found that you've gotten better at that in the course of your relationship?

Jason Lange: Yeah, well, you know, I think the goal, certainly the aspiration, if not the reality, which it is not, but is moving towards real time of, you know, like just more in the moment noticing these things. Oh, that really upset me or that really frustrated me, but totally, you know, I think for me in my makeup, so to speak, this will often come up around not expressing what I need or want or a preference and then like getting frustrated about that later on. So, you know, for, for my constitution, it's this unique thing where oftentimes I don't even aim the frustration out as much as like kind of loop it back in. But then I'm either withdrawn or I'm just kind of like edgy and tense in my nervous system, which still just absolutely sucks for my partner to be around. Right. And you know, I think an important thing to hear to highlight that even, yeah. Even though I've done a ton of work and you know, we do work, it's like what we do, this stuff still lives in me all the time. And you know, there'll be times, you know, my wife will ask me like, are you okay? Is there something bothering you? And I'll be like, no, I'm fine. You know, it's just like so habitual that I haven't even slowed down to do those more subtle tune ins to like, oh yeah, I'm actually kind of annoyed about this. And then for me, one of the reasons I won't bring that up is I immediately go to. Well, I didn't ask for it or set that boundary. So it's like I don't have the right to mention that in some way. That's kind of my version of that.

Melanie Curtin: See, and that's the same language, it's the same you and I both used of. I don't have the right to be angry. I don't have the right to be upset. Therefore I'm going to convince myself I'm not upset. Doesn't work. It doesn't work. Two things about what you said. One, I'm wondering if you can give an example of something that you didn't speak up about wanting or needing.

Jason Lange: Usually it's around. So like time is a big one for us right now. In my family, my wife and I both work from home. We both work with clients. We have very tight schedule. We're trading off our daughter. And sometimes she, or I mean this kind of goes both Ways we won't quite ask for the necessary amount of time in a transition. And then we'll get like angry at the other person for not giving us that time or, you know, so I, I can just speak to that even more for like, I'll get. It'll be like 10 minutes till. And I'll be getting really frustrated, like, oh my God, I'm gonna have to like run into the room, turn on the camera and I'm annoyed, right? And so my body tightens up and I kind of like get wound up. And you know, sometimes I'll just be less fun with my daughter. And that can really be traced to, well, I didn't make clear, like, hey, I need 10 minutes transition. Like, what do we need to do to make this happen? Like, we need to change our schedules or something around that. But rather than just having that conversation, which my wife would be open to, but sometimes it's just like I forget, like these are deep habits for me. Or there's like a, you know, I think I can even feel into like a subtle. Well, she should just know, right? She should just, she should have seen the calendar and seen the schedule and know, like. And then I kind of get mad that I'm not being noticed, you know, in some ways which, that's a more old, that's my version of the old, like the older, younger thing of like that takes me kind of into more.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it's some of the, you know, deepest work. I get to work in my relationship right now, and it's, you know, making some agreements with my partner of how to. For us, increasingly, how to play in that energy of. Because there's a way that it can, you know, even me disappearing can trigger all my own inner shame and stuff. So instead of that, you know what. What we found to mostly work is when she's more playful about it, you know, like, hello, is anyone there? You know, like, I miss you. You know, that's. That's a phrase I've found that tends to really work for me, is just not so much like, I'm mad at you, at being gone, or, where are you? It's just, I miss you. Right. Who doesn't want to be missed, particularly in their intimate relationship? And that's just like, oh, okay. Yeah. There's a way I can step back into that. And that's been a really, really great one. And for me, it often comes down to, you know, I'd say maybe 30% of the time it's actually stuff about my partner that's frustrating me or our relationship, but the majority of the time, it's just my other crap in life. And as someone who's not kind of naturally inclined to share my inner world, the practice is, oh, all I need to tell her is what's going on. Right. It's not like we need to fix it or it's just like, hey, I'm stressed out about this thing. And she's like, oh, okay, right. Versus like, is our relationship on the line here? Like, you haven't looked at me in a day, you know, something like that. And so my practice is just inviting her into that world, you know, sharing that a little bit, not being like burning her and like, figure this out for me, it's just like, hey, here's what's stressing me out. And I'm working on that right now as I can.

Melanie Curtin: And what about the opposite? Because I'm. I'm guessing that your wife is more like me, where she can be jabby and pokey and not she. She might not do the withdrawal thing as much. I mean, I think I do both, but I think I definitely do the jobby pokey more than the withdrawing. What. How do you respond to that? Do you address it directly? Do you give it a minute? What's your. What have you found that's worked in that.

Jason Lange: She'S actually not as much a jabby pokey. Like, only is kind of like the last line just because of her family of origin and the situation there where it wasn't necessarily okay to come back with jabs. You know, at our worst, where we'll get to is like, I'm totally disconnected. And then she shares, like, you know, I feel really alone and kind of mad. And then her anger will like trigger my anger, and then I'll just slowly start to come back to life for better or worse. And that's kind of the most unconscious version of it. As we're better about is just kind of more slowing down and like, hey, here's. Here's what's true for me right now. Here's what's going on in my inner world. And it's all a lot easier when I'm taking care of myself. So it's when I drop my self care. Like it's. You know, there's not a whole lot she can even do to kind of bring me out of that. But as I'm doing my practices to keep me grounded, keep me resourced, keep me nourished, keep me connected to other men and just keep my bucket full. It's much easier to have these kind of conversations as all. As I think I also think, you know, another. Another one that works for us that I know you're a fan of is just having good sex. Like sometimes we don't even need to talk about some of the issues. But like, when we just kind of get into that space and reconnect kind of at that primal bodily level, a lot of times the energies will still come through of what the frustration was or the hurt with the other person, but it's not just conceptually talking about it. It's more like moved through our bodies together. And that's like, you know, a godsend. Just because, like, what can be processed in a short amount of time. And my experience in our relationship is pretty incredible with that as a tool in the toolkit.

Melanie Curtin: I think that's a great point. Especially, you know, we talk about first stage, second stage, third stage relationships. And that feels like a third stage move. Because, you know, when you said working it out, I could imagine, you know, almost like wrestling, right? It's like I'm pushing a little bit, you're pushing back. It's like I'm mad at you. Like, I'm kind of mad at you, but I still want to be connected to you. And you're using your body to work that out and to actually be in contact. Be in contact and be in relationship with the person that you're. You're attached to. Right. I mean, that's the whole thing about romantic relationship is that our attachment stuff from childhood become projected onto this person. That feels very stage of. We can actually work some things out physically without having to talk them to death. Because I think that's the other. I think that's the other key here is, you know, it felt, for example, with the conversation I had with my friend. I think that we've had enough conversations now where I trust that he's not gonna just completely withdraw from me. It's not gonna necessarily threaten the relationship. Right. Our friendship. Whereas I can think of women friends of mine where I would be scared to tell them, like, this thing you did hurt my feelings because of ex. What you said, which is, I'm not sure that they're not going to just leave that. They're not just going to say either nothing or, well, I didn't mean it that way. And then I'm like, okay, I, you know, now I don't feel safe here. Like, I don't want to be in a friendship where I don't feel safe. And so the stakes are so high there. And I think that's the. That's the whole trick is being willing to test a relationship's resilience takes a lot of bravery, right? It takes a lot of bravery to come to someone and say, I was upset about this. Like, this hurt my feelings. Because you don't know yet. Even if you've known the person for years, you don't know how they're going to show up when the chips are down really in emotional dialogue with you. Even if you're too talk about relationships and stuff with other people, the two of you, that's really the test is can this person meet me here? Can they meet my upset and not throw it back in my face or totally withdraw? And you know, I think that's the, the art of, of boundaries is kind of being able to offer that and say this, hey, this, this hurt my feelings a bit and then see if they can meet you. And in romantic relationship, like the one you have with your wife, you know, you've. You've kind of moved through stages such that you're at a stage now where you two can kind of wrestle it out. There's, I mean, not huge things, but what you're talking about, just little things, right. This thing kind of hurt my feelings, but I still want to be connected to you. And we're having sex and I'm kind of like put, you know, pushing you a little bit. I'm working it out. Like, I'm in, like, then I kind of like got the tension out of my actual physical body where it was, where it was, where it was, where it was staying. Then it's like, okay, I feel it. I feel the connection again. Like, I feel like it's worked out, we've come back all the way. And that's only possible when you have that much trust established. Right. That dance, that wrestle would not be possible with your friend who you've never tested the resilience of the relationship with. It's only because you two have a history and you two have done repair enough that you, that you can do it that way.

Jason Lange: Yeah, and I think with us it was a willingness to go into that stuff pretty early on. You know, as people have listened before. I've heard that was kind of one of the foundations of like, we're going to both be honest and true and not pretend you know what our truth is, even if that causes some conflict. And I think that's, you know, when we talk about the third stage relationship, one of the powerful things that when we can get there, like there's a way we can not fear conflict because to truly be with it almost always actually creates more connection. Like, maybe not connection in the, like lovey dovey, hey, it's all good. But like connection in the sense of, oh, I feel closer to you knowing, like, because I can actually feel your truth in my truth. And like that feels better than not knowing or not having talked about it. Like, so there's a way, a willingness to go into conflict for the sake of connection become. Can become really, really powerful and I think is a hallmark of like a healthy, healthy relationship and couple that we can build up to.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, and I think dating, especially the early stages, is a great example of, you know, that fine line between what's yours and what's mine. So for example, you're on a dating app, you've been talking to someone, they don't respond for three days and you're pissed. You know, are you going to be passive aggressive towards them? Are you going to try to get them back like that? I think passive aggression can also really show up in the early stages of dating. And, and sometimes it's not appropriate to share, you know, your upset with that person because you don't have a relationship, you don't have any trust established versus, for example, what I was discussing with my women friends. It would be appropriate. It would be appropriate. We've had so interaction, we were in relationship. It would be appropriate for me to test the resilience there. Whereas in an early dating relationship, it's a great idea to take that upset to your coach, to your therapist, your support group, to some other group and yeah, work that shit out. Because there's a reason that you're pissed. You know, you feel dropped or you feel ignored or you feel some kind of way, probably from childhood that is up and out and ready to be worked with, but not necessarily with that person. And I know many millions, probably millions, a lot of women and men, but I'm going to focus on women who are terrified of quote unquote, rejecting a man because of what he comes back with. And there's countless memes on the Internet about crazy things that, that men will say. Back when she says, oh, I can't get a drink tonight, he's like, attacks her. You know, it's like, well, that's, you know, sometimes that's just aggressive aggressive. But a lot of those messages are kind of passive aggressive, like, oh, so you just like to lead guys on. It's like, what? That's not, you know, and it's like, that's not appropriate. That's not the appropriate person to work that rage out with. That's not actually who you're angry with. You know, it's kind of. Yeah, projector. The reason we say projecting is because you're kind of. There's this image and it's being overlaid on this person, but it's really not about that person. So we want to be also responsible about our triggers. And that's the fine Line because you don't, you know, especially in the early stages of relating with someone, whether it's a friend or not, how do you authentically, you know, stay in connection with someone who has hurt your feelings when you don't want to say, hey, this hurt my feelings that you didn't respond for three days? You know what I mean? Like, when you know that that's not the move. I have often found that challenging in dating of, like, when do I. When do I work what out with whom is like, sometimes I have, for example, I have been brave with, let's say, a guy that I had, that I had gone on a few dates with, right? We did. We did have a relationship. This wasn't someone new. And we had made tentative plans, like, oh, maybe we'll do something this weekend. And I hadn't heard from him by Friday evening, and I was pissed. And I did sort of share with him, like, him feeling a little, like, hurt, like, I don't know what's going on. And I felt like that was appropriate given where we were. And it was fucking scary for me to do, like, because I knew, I was like, if I don't say this, I will be passive aggressive. I know myself. I know myself. If I don't say this, the next time I hear from him, I'll be short and curt. You know, I'll try to, like you said, tit for tat. Will you hurt me? Well, look, what, I can do that. I'll do that. So it was really scary for me to say, I'm a little hurt. I don't really know what's going on. And he met me there, right? I got to see who he was when I did that, when I extended myself, I got to see who he was, and he really slowed down and listened. And he was like, yeah, I could see how that would be really annoying to not know what your plans are. Like, can I say, say yes to this? Like, I don't know. And he, and he was like, I would love to go pegging with you on Sunday. You know, I, I, you know, he worked it out, and that built a lot of trust between the two of us as dating partners. I was like, oh, wow, okay, I tried something and you didn't freak out on me. And that was extremely brave of me to do, given my background. Most people, I think it would be scary. I think for some people it's extra scary, but that feels like an art, right? Again, what do I say to whom and when and what is actually theirs to respond to versus My old hurt.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that's the sequencing piece around. The two words that come up for me are like investment and agreements. There's like a. You know, those are two things that emerge in any relationship. Like, we've invested a certain amount in this relationship and we have a certain kind of agreements, you know, that start to form that you do kind of have to explore. You know, I think one area we sometimes see this, particularly some of the guys we work with, are guys that come in with more anxious attachment styles. And there's a way there can be a move towards processing or sharing that hurt, like, really fast in a relationship before necessarily there's enough connection, investment or agreements. And that can not always lead to the best things. And that's where what you were saying about, like, you want to be with the feeling and deal with the feeling, not necessarily with that person in that time right early on, because, you know, that creates an energy to the relationship, too, of like, oh, are we mostly just going to be processing hurts? Which isn't always the sexiest thing. You know, truth be told, you have to get to that eventually in relationship. But the ability to bring it to a therapist coach, a men's group, as you know, I'm obviously huge on to still be with that sensation, to still process that hurt, to kind of. It's like we were telling our guys on a call the other night to get the charge out of your body. Like it's an actual energy in your body. Like, that doesn't go anywhere. And if you don't deal with it, even if you're, you know, trying to be super cool, it's. It's going to be felt in the interactions, right. Where you're like, I know that if I don't do this thing, it's going to show up the next time I connect with him. And we can move that charge with other people and then be a little more present and open and available to, you know, the far more generous side of things, of, like, curiosity about what happened for someone else or where they're at or what they might be wanting instead of making up a story about, you know, how women on dating apps, they're all X, Y or Z or something like that. There's like, oh, you know, what was going on for you this weekend? I never heard back from you. Right. It's like a far more gentle place to be, but you still got to deal with that feeling somewhere else with. With people who see you and you feel safe with. And you can move that charge with it. It's just so important and it is one of the most powerful things. And I would say differentiating things guys can do. So for guys that listen to your show is becoming aware of your inner world. So, you know, they actually have a word for this interoception. Like it's actual capacity, like to tune into my body and notice the sensations, notice the emotions and kind of get clarity on that. And that takes practice. It's a great thing to practice with other men in circle, I can tell you that. And then as we become aware of it, take responsibility for it. Right. Wow, I'm really pissed off. What I need to go do is go chop some wood to just move that through my body. So I'm not taking that out on the bank teller that I just want. Right. Like who takes an extra second and suddenly I'm uh. But I've taken responsibility kind of for that charge, for that aggression in my body to move it because I've become aware of it. And that takes real work. But if you can get there and you can start to name that stuff, become way more trustable, becomes way more. Right. It's the funny thing, you don't have to. Your feelings don't have to be any different, but when you can just name them for someone like you're. Yeah, I am. I'm feeling really frustrated right now. Part of me just wants to bash this pillow really hard. Right, right. That's immediately going to change it because then there's like a. Oh, that person's aware of their experience. I think the scariest thing is when we're around someone and we're not sure they're aware of their experience. It's unsafe. Right. That's the definition of unsafe. It's like they don't know how they're. What they're feeling. So I don't know how they're going to act versus someone who's like volatile.

Melanie Curtin: It's. Yeah, it's volatile what they're going to do or what they're capable of doing. Because you don't feel like they have.

Jason Lange: A handle on because they're not tracking it in themselves.

Melanie Curtin: Yes.

Jason Lange: And so guys, this is an important one to listen because if your partner is doing a better job of tracking your emotional experience in the moment than you, the polarity is reversed. So in a sense, she is holding the masculine right there for your feminine inside.

Melanie Curtin: And.

Jason Lange: And that's just a really important thing. It doesn't mean with. Without agreements and intention and conscious relationship that that's not going to happen sometimes. And Flip flop. And there's going to be times you're going to be more in your emotional experience. But what I'm saying is, if that's unconscious, women ain't going to be attracted to you.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I've definitely ended connections with men specifically for passive aggression. And I have sort of said, like, I, I don't trust you. I don't feel that safe emotionally. And, you know, they didn't like hearing that sort of. It was another moment of like, them not really wanting to be with that truth. Because I think a lot of times they see themselves as a nice guy. Well, I'm a nice guy. I did that for you. Because I'm a nice guy. And they're. But they're so angry. They're so angry. There's so much rage. And they don't want that pointed out. It's like that part of them, the enraged part, is so unacceptable to them that they pretend it's not there and then it just gets louder. So I think that's connected to this. As we're starting to wrap here, I think is actually embracing the fact that, yes, all of us have anger. All of us have a part of us that is angry. It doesn't mean it needs to run the show, but you need to make friends with that part. It's really important. And I think that it's part of dismantling the nice guy image of. I think of myself as solely a nice guy. I am only. I am only a kind nice guy. You're also angry, like, and that's okay. It doesn't mean you're a bad person and it doesn't mean you're your abusive dad. But that part of you needs to come into the picture because it's running the show underneath. And it doesn't make. It doesn't make people feel safe.

Jason Lange: Totally. And there's another way that, you know, that can manifest in a different form of distrust, which is someone who's never angry. You know, my. My little spidey sense will go off because I'm like, ooh, there's stuff in there, but it's inaccessible. And that in a different way can feel dangerous because it's like, who knows how that's going to come out versus someone who has. It's just, you know, it's a relationship. That's what you're speaking towards. Like, build a relationship to that part of yourself. Don't try to get rid of it. Don't try to pretend it's not there. Find safe spaces for it to be itself and to express what it needs. And oftentimes it, you know, it's coming up because there's a need or a want or a boundary or desire for you that probably needs to be expressed. You know the thing, the last thing I'll say is, you know, passive aggressive is almost completely the opposite of vulnerable, right? Like generally what we're afraid to say, so we're passive aggressive about it. When we actually speak, it tends to feel very vulnerable.

Melanie Curtin: That is so true. I can't tell you how true that is, that when I've been chosen to be brave, I have said things to people like, I don't normally say this because it's really scary or listen, I want to talk to you because if I don't, I know I'm going to treat you weirdly and give you the cold shoulder for the next three days. And I don't want to do that because I actually don't want to treat you like that. Therefore, blah, blah, blah. That is so vulnerable. It is so vulnerable. It is such an extension of trust. It is so difficult that I know it's the right path. Like, oh, if it makes me really uncomfortable and scared, that's probably the most generous thing I can offer this other person. Passive aggressive jobs that I throw out. They feel safe. I don't feel exposed. I don't feel, you know, I feel empowered in like a mean way, which is not, not who I want to be. So, yeah. So as we wrap up here, it's the holiday season and I just want to remind everyone that you are a grown ass person and you never have to do anything you don't want to do, including go home for the holidays or stay in a room with someone who's asking you questions you don't want to answer. You can always just say, I'm not going to discuss that today. Any other sort of boundary hacks you want to drop here as we wrap up an episode that's going to drop around the holidays?

Jason Lange: Give yourself permission to take space, right? Even if it's a big family gathering and stuff like, yeah, I need to go for a 10 minute walk, be my by myself. For a lot of us that can do a lot. And as a men's group guy, it's a great time to have open lines to your kind of other family, so to speak of, hey, how's your crazy family vacation going? Right? And just connecting with people who you can just kind of put that somewhere like, oh my God, my mom's driving me crazy or oh my God, I have to go sit with my uncle who's going to rant about X, Y or Z right now. Just having that be received, I notice again, it's like a piece of scaffolding back to my other connections while I'm in the midst of some turmoil or stress or something that I may just have to endure a little bit.

Melanie Curtin: Ditto. Yeah. Just reaching out to chosen family and checking on people. There's also a lot of people who are going to be feeling extra lonely this time of year. So just there's actually scientific studies done on when we check on other people, when we extend ourselves, we feel less lonely. So if you're feeling lonely, checking on others and kind of extending yourself can be really powerful. And there are also a lot of places that need volunteers around the holidays because their regular volunteers are out. So if you are around and available in your city or your town and you know you're going to be alone on a certain holiday, you. You can volunteer. And that can be really, actually a really fun way to connect with other people that you've not met before and really genuinely be of service, because a lot of them are low on volunteers at that time. Cool. So. And if you're at all interested in our work or going deeper with us, you can take our free training at Evolutionary Men Training. Happy Hanukkah. Happy holidays. We will catch you next time.

Jason Lange: See you later.

Melanie Curtin: Sam.