163: Ever had red-hot sex with someone who’s bad for you? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. I mean, it all starts with that self awareness. And you know, what you just described, what we've seen and what people have reported to us is a big part of that. Of one of the many red flags is, well, the only place this relationship is working is sexually.

Melanie Curtin: Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode. I am overjoyed to have Jason Lange back with us on the podcast. My unofficial co host and very official co coach.

Jason Lange: Thank you.

Melanie Curtin: Thanks for being with us. So today we're talking about a pattern that we've noticed in our clients as well as I've definitely noticed it in my life. I actually don't know if you've experienced this, Jason, but today we're talking about trauma sex and trauma bonding. Mostly about trauma sex, which often leads to trauma bonding, which I would love to hear. Sort of your definition of that. I have an idea, but just curious what you would define that as in the context of this conversation.

Jason Lange: Yeah. So I like how you framed that in terms of trauma sex and trauma bonding. I've more had experience probably around trying to get trauma bonding but failing. But we've definitely worked with a lot of clients who have been navigating the just real problem of trauma sex. And so in my mind, what we're saying when we talk about those two things is usually like, we've talked about this before. When we're young, intense stuff happens to us, and we do or do not get a certain type of love and affection and attention from our parents, which creates a pattern of what attachment in our nervous system feels like. Literally what home feels like to some extent, then for most of us, not all of us, but most of us, that's a little bit incomplete. We didn't quite get all the nutrients we needed when we were young. There's unfinished kind of stuff we're still trying to process. So in my experience with trauma bonding and trauma sex is. Is trying to close the loops on that. Right. So trying to bring to completion or get the thing from someone else that I was never able to get from my parents in the past or my caregivers in the past. And it's not necessarily a conscious thing, but it shows up then in our nervous system is, I would say, as a particularly kind of almost like titillation or excitement. It's like a very strong, compelling, engaging energy when we feel the possibility of that thing. Right. And so what that kind of means is oftentimes we'll become attracted to people who are kind of helping us recreate this. This pattern from when we were young and the trauma sex of that is when we're really getting that energy run through our nervous system. In the moment, in the moments, like in the sexual act, there's like a, wow, this thing is finally happening, or this feels incredible, or whatever that might be. So it's supercharged. It's like, in spinal tap sense, it's an 11 on the volume dial. Right turned up past it. That would be my take of kind of what trauma sex is. And it's, you know, in a sense, it's our wounds making love to each other, not necessarily our whole self.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I agree. And would add to that that in my experience, trauma sex is compulsive. So there's a. There's a feeling of compulsion and addiction. So I remember I. My first serious relationship, we were definitely having trauma sex, and it was the best sex of my life, and it was incredibly addictive. So it's like this glue that holds two people together when one or both of them is aware our relationship is dysfunctional, our relationship is not healthy. But this sex is so incredible and brings me to such a high place that I'm kind of willing to overlook how dysfunctional our relationship is or I don't know how to make our relationship more functional. And also, this sex is incredible. So in. In my experience, trauma sex, like, I remember I had a rocky relationship with this person. We kind of broke up and got back together several times, which is usually an indication of trauma sex. And on one of the occasions, I was lying next to him, and we had, like. We were just talking. I was lying next to him, and I said something like, it feels a little bit like you're my drug, and I know I should quit, but I can't. And he said something like, that feels true for me too. And I remember thinking, that's probably a problem. I feel like this is a problem I should address. And at the time, I didn't really know how to do that. So I basically just kept going until. And I think we've both witnessed this in clients. I became awake to the fact that this was damaging my health. So this relationship with him was so difficult and fraught and emotionally unsafe that I was concerned I was going to get an ulcer. And I was. I was. I was afraid for my health. And when I ended it, I said to him, I love you, and I love myself more. And I can't keep doing this to myself because it's really bad for me. So I think there's an element of trauma sex that I want to distinguish from sexual trauma what we're talking about here is not trauma sex. Meaning, for example, I do not come from a background of sexual abuse, but I would. I was having trauma sex with that partner because of my emotional trauma from my childhood. I would, I would, you know, I would say. And yeah, I think that layered into that is probably ancestral trauma as well, because there are patterns of dysfunction and patterns of, yeah, of trauma within family systems that often aren't healed or worked out in ancestors that can then be expressed through our. Through us, basically through the next generation. And there's a whole episode about ancestral trauma that I do recommend you listen to if you would like to be more educated. We're not going to do that here, but I think that it is about our specific childhoods, us, the individuals here, and also unexpressed longings and needs and unfulfilled desires from past generations as well. That's showing up. And the element of sexuality is so raw, you know, it's so pure and raw and visceral and just that deep longing, that deep desire, you know, in me to be seen and to get attention from him was one of the major poles of our relationship. And I think of the sex. And we've seen that repeatedly, right? I mean, we could name countless clients who've come and said, yeah, I just got out of a relationship with someone where the sex was unbelievable and the relationship sucked. And I felt terrible emotionally and it just was compelling, you know, I just, you know, had to stay or couldn't stop. Broke up, got back together. Broke up, got back together. In fact, many of the men, I would say, that join our program are still hung up on that person. They, you know, one just joined the other day that was sort of like, I, you know, had been. Have been seeing this woman and I just can't get her off of my mind. I try and try and I know that it's not really going to work. I keep hoping. I keep hoping and wishing and, you know, wanting it to be different. But the truth is, the sex is a big part of it. Like when we get together and have sex, it's incredible. And then the other stuff isn't really working. So can you help? What, you know, what do I do about that scenario? So, um, yeah, I mean, what, what, what do you do about that scenario if you are in that situation where you realize that you're having trauma sex and you kind of know you need to get out of it? What, you know, what do you recommend in that circumstance?

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. I mean, it all starts with that self awareness. And, you know, what you just described, what we've seen and what people have reported to us is a big part of that, of one of the many red flags is, well, the only place this relationship is working is sexually. And I think in some trauma sex, sometimes, in fact, that good sex is fueled by the dysfunction outside of it, the charge, the frustrations. There's like. And that kind of gets played out in the trauma sex, so to speak. And so then there's like, oh, we come really close together and then. But we have to then build up a certain amount of friction offline that then gets resolved again. So, you know, you can just feel that ebb and flow of tension and release. Tension and release. Tension and release. That's so addictive then, to have that moment of release on so many levels. You know, obviously from. From my frame for longtime listeners, number one thing you do is start talking to people about it, particularly if you can some other men or a coach or a therapist or someone and be like, hey, here's what's going on. Because one thing we've definitely talked about before is how easy it is for us to normalize just about anything. And it's kind of like the lobster in the boiling frog in the boiling water, right? Just turns up slowly over time. And we don't realize until someone else points out to us, like, wow, that's really fucked up. Like, that sounds really intense. That doesn't sound normal at all. And we're like, what? You know, guys will kind of have their minds blown. And we've seen this live on calls before, right? Where a man hadn't quite been able to make that leap yet. But then a bunch of other guys got on the call and were like, hey, I've survived that. I've seen that. Here's how it destroyed me. I'm feeling very protective of you. Like, that doesn't sound right. And that man basically changed his life after that call because it was just so clearly reflected through so many other people that something wasn't healthy about what was going on for him. So number one would just be, yeah, bouncing off other people you trust, men, coaches, men's group therapists, and starting to get a gauge of, hey, how does this feel to you? Right. Does this feel grounded and normal? And the thing about groundedness is it's often a little bit slower. And I think to the frustration or, I don't know, fear maybe, of the kind of more trauma energy, it's usually just a little bit more relaxed and chilled. It's like, yeah, the relationship's going great. I really like her.

Melanie Curtin: That's a good point. Yeah. The way that it sounds.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Versus like, oh, my God. You know, we've talked before about the danger of the pop culture term we've all been fed of falling in love. It's like, it's. You can feel the energy of that. It's actually disorienting. I'm falling in love. And oftentimes what that really means is, like, part of my nervous system is falling back into a place from when I was young. That is not who I am now. And so there's this total disorientation in that. Getting help. I mean, that's the number one thing I would say is getting help to start to know what are some of the red flags, what's right, what's not right. And then when you do know, hopefully with those same people starting to make commitments, make commitments around. Not necessarily I'm going to leave by this day, but I'm going to have some discussions by this day, or we're going to talk about how to do things differently by this day. And if nothing's changed, then, yeah, I'm going to need to make some decisions, like, can you guys help hold me accountable to that? Because otherwise I'm just suffering and in hell most of the time.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I remember when I was with this person, I had housemates. We didn't live together. I didn't live with my boyfriend. He lived separately. I had three or four housemates. And I remember knowing that I was on a roller coaster. I was aware that it was really high and then really low and then really high and really low. And I remember being in the kitchen with one of my women housemates who was dating a man also. And I said, how's your relationship? Like, what does your relationship feel like? And she said something. I don't remember the details of what she said, but she said something like, I feel really safe. And when I look into his eyes, it's like looking into two pools of compassion just feels, like, warm. And I remember being like, holy shit, that's not even anything close to how I feel. Like, it was so far away from how I felt. And the way that she talked about it, like, she softened and she just. Like I could feel her. Yeah. Her sense of security and her sense of safety. And I just didn't. I was not having that experience at all. And it was. Yeah, I wouldn't have known that, like you said, if I hadn't talked about it. And I didn't share in that moment about what I was experiencing, but at least I was getting a gauge of. Is this what you're experiencing in relationship? Like, what is your. What is your life like in your relationship? And that was definitely a moment that I thought, this doesn't. I don't think this feels normal. The other thing that I would say is I was quite isolated at the time. I lived in an area that was isolated from friends. It was, you know, far. It was like an hour and a half for me to see a friend. And I had very little money, so it was also sort of like kind of expensive. Expensive and far. And my boyfriend lived close and I had ended up getting a flat near his. That was why I was in that neighborhood. And I remember saying yes to a trip or something that's triggered a fight with him that I was gonna go on this trip with some friends. And I just remember having a conversation with him where I said the words like, I'm just really lonely. I'm really lonely. And he said something like, that's a. That's a problem. And it wasn't a mean spirited, that's a problem. It was more like pointing out like, that's. That's an actual legitimate problem in your life. And I thought to myself, yeah, that is a problem. I don't like where I'm living. I don't like what I'm doing for work.

Jason Lange: I.

Melanie Curtin: This relationship is terrible for me in many ways. And just realizing that I needed to make some life choices that were different, not just about that relationship, but about my life. And I've seen that a couple times in the. In our program as well, with clients where there's a sense of, like, what's happening in your life as well as what's happening in your dating life. Right. Where are you and how can we sort of bolster you so that you have a stronger community around you? Because that I think would have felt really different. And I do think that I would have left that terrible, terrible relationship sooner if I had felt more supported elsewhere. Because the contrast between being around people with whom you feel safe and being with someone where you feel deeply unsafe some of the time is great. There's a great contrast between those. But if you're only around the person with whom you feel unsafe, it starts to feel like normal. Right? It starts to feel like this is just how things are. And I remember, yeah, going to a friend's place for a weekend later on, and just the contrast of being around her and feeling like I could breathe and I could just be myself was striking. And I wouldn't have had that without that time with her, just literal time. So that that pattern of isolation which is so common in domestic violence scenarios, even if a relationship hasn't progressed to there, which often many of our clients have experienced domestic violence from their women partners, even if it hasn't progressed to that point, there's still an element of that isolation that I think exacerbates the situation.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that's so, so important to highlight the. There's a feeling I often reflect to guys because they come in sometimes normalized, maybe have a sense something's not right. But then we'll work with them in our group calls. I'll work with them one on one or in men's groups and start to hear the experiences and stories and reflect back. At some point. It sounds like you're kind of at war with this person in the sense of your nervous system is constantly in fight or flight or freeze in that it doesn't sound like other than sexually you're getting that safe space you just talked about where the relationship is actually creating safety and energy and nourishment that then makes dealing with the war of life easier, so to speak. Right. That, you know, there's plenty we have to deal with in life. And then, you know, in my mind and I think your mind, and a lot of the work we do, it's like, ideally your intimate relationship is a place where you create some safety from all that, some nourishment from all that, some regulation with all that, that in this connection we're strong and true and whole and healing and with each other that makes it easier to deal with life. But when the connection that's supposed to be doing that is actually stressing you out even more, that's where the other question, you know, we often have to have a talk with guys about is like, what's it costing you legitimately? What. What is the cost of maybe the best sex you've ever had in your life? Which, you know, even saying that I'm often like, oh, they just don't even know. Like, you know, it's a different thing that's possible when you do have that safety and connection, but that the best sex you've had so far that, you know, what's the cost on that, on your health, your sleep, your wellbeing, your eating, your job? I mean, the stuff costs guys jobs. It costs them physical health and well being, you know, eating poorly, not getting enough sleep and just constantly aggravated or agitated. And, you know, that even manifests in health problems for guys. Like physically stuff happening in their bodies that starting to get a sense of that of like, wow, is some sex worth all of that? Because look at my life around this relationship.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking of a specific guy where, you know, again, rocky relationship, off again, on again, really super passionate and hot and sexy, sexy time, but not any of the rest of it. And he got out of that relationship. And we have a lot of guys that join the program upon breakup. It's a really common time. Or I'm thinking of separating from my wife or I am separated, but some sort of breakup situation. And I think he lost like 35 pounds upon getting out of that relationship. And you know, I, I would love to hear your take on it, but it feels like it takes so much psychic energy to be in a relationship like that and just, you're just trying to survive that, you know, a lot of your well being does fall to the wayside that things that you want to be taken care of, such as working out, just feel exhausting or like too much and so you just aren't doing any of your self care practices. And then you get out and you're like, whoa. It's a little bit like getting out of jail, Psychic jail. And there's all this time that you have and all of this energy that you have back and it feels like waking up from a bad dream or something. I remember that was my experience of just feeling like I'd been in this strange slumber place and then waking up and actually starting to do things again and having the energy to do so.

Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah, we've. We've seen a number of guys just transform in that. I mean literally transform in that we'll see them on a call and it's like a different human being is looking back at us because there's like energy, there's vitality in their bodies. They're like relaxed and breathing. They're not just tight and you know, holding so much in. And so physically they'll transform. They'll get more connected to their communities, to other men in the program. And it's just, it's like seeing burden lifted. Just like. Right. You can see they're, they're moving more lightly through the world. And you know, I would say, and at least a few of the guys we've worked with, you know, and this is another way I think maybe to think about trauma sex is lack of boundaries, like oftentimes highly titillating. Trauma sex is kind of boundary. Right. It feels wild.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Some of that is because there aren't boundaries. Right. There's not boundaries on how fast we're moving. Like where we're at, are each other safe. It's just like, boom, the energy of that connection. And sometimes that's because both parties can't even yet set boundaries. Right. And so that's where oftentimes a lot of trouble then happens around that. But on the other side of that, you know, a large part of what we help guys with is, yes, starting to get a self sense of what do I need to feel safe and nourished and okay in the world. Right. And that when they've exited a relationship and start to create some self boundaries around that type of stuff, it does free up a whole lot. And it doesn't mean you can't then have, you know, wild, incredible sex. But it's a very different experience when both people, partners are consciously dropping their boundaries to connect with each other. Then. Oh, we don't even have the capacity to hold that right now. So there's kind of just this like, you know, diving into each other, falling into each other type energy that can be intoxicating. But again, often, but not always, tends to manifest in, you know, what I would just kind of call a certain, like a speed of how that connection feels or how fast it moves that, you know, we're pretty firm with our guys around if sometimes it's like. It's not that you can't move fast, but there's a. There's a texture to it, there's a quality to it of allowing things to unfold in knowing in some ways there's only certain parts of a partner you can get to know over time.

Melanie Curtin: Yes.

Jason Lange: For like a deeper trust, a deeper connection to happen in that thinking, you know, someone within a couple of weeks often has some kind of drama or red flag associated to it because you don't know them. What you know is that energetic imprint that reminds you of something when you were young.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. I think what I also hear in there is awareness, the conscious awareness. You know, I was not really that conscious or aware with that partner that I was with.

Jason Lange: Yes.

Melanie Curtin: And it was. Yeah, just a compulsion. It was just a compulsion. It was just this sex feels really good and this person is. It's like being in a trance or something. It felt a little bit like is. Yeah. Compulsion is keeps being the word that comes to mind, you know, And I think this is tied to this, this point I wanted to make around vulnerability. You know, it didn't. It didn't Feel safe. I can remember several occasions where I made myself vulnerable to him emotionally. And he didn't meet me there, and it didn't feel better after. And so it wasn't. We weren't building trust. And so my body, there was a way that, like, my heart was constantly trying to protect itself, and that doesn't lead to a safe connection. And I'm remembering a guy we had in our program who was married for a long. A long time, like 15 or 20 years. Had gotten out of that marriage, got into the program, learned a lot about leading with vulnerability. Just got. Just really dove into the program, and after a couple of months, started seeing a woman. And he said, yeah, within two months, I was having deeper conversations with her than I ever had with my wife. And that. That leads to a different kind of sex that, to your point, is. Is then often better, right? It's like, oh, this is better than the trauma sex that I was having. But it's like you have to graduate beyond the trauma sex in order to get there. So it's sort of like levels of video game, right. You're at this level. But then in order to graduate, you need the consciousness and the awareness. And, you know, similarly, I think there was another man who was having really compelling sex with this woman for years. Again, rocky, off and on, volatile, up and down, all the things we're talking about. But really great sex. And finally kind of, yeah, ended that, you know, ended it in a. In a more. What's the word? Sort of final way, I would say, just based on the feedback he was getting in the program and sort of a felt sense of, yeah, this is not. There's. This is not right. There's something really, really that's not right here. And within a few months, started relating with a different woman. And it was just easier. It's just so much easier. And, you know, they had really good sex. And he was like, I was so afraid that I would never have that sex again. Yes. And I really think that's part of this conversation because it can be so addictive and so. So much dopamine. You know, they do brain scans of people, quote, unquote, in love, to your point, right in that high period. And it's the same as cocaine. It's lighting up the same. It's. It's not different. The brain scans don't look different. So it truly is extremely difficult to quit. And it has a lot of the same costs, not necessarily the same physical costs or financial costs, although sometimes it does. But I was really encouraged by that story and his joy of, like, wow, this is so much better. This is so much better because I still have time and energy for my kids. I still want to go to the gym. I'm not afraid of what she's gonna say when I call her. I'm not afraid of what, you know, it's like, there were things that I knew would trigger my partner, and I was terrified of sharing those with him. I just knew it was gonna cause a problem. And I was tiptoeing around and hiding things and sometimes acting weird and all in an attempt to sort of make sure that he was okay so that I would be okay. Which is, you know, that's Mom. That's my. That was my pattern with Mom. I was like, oh, this feels really similar. Even though he's a different person, different personality, all this stuff.

Jason Lange: But.

Melanie Curtin: But it was like, oh, I remember this. I remember coming out of school and dreading getting in the car because I knew something was going to. It was just going to be horrible. And that was so encouraging to me. I remember of that celebration of, like, wow, this is so much better. This is really, really better. Like, I'm really glad that I turned that corner, that I made that shift, that I trusted that there would be something beyond this. And that's what I think I really admire about a lot of our clients, is it does take a lot of trust to do that. It takes a lot of trust to grow and to move forward and to say, I'm going to do something different. I don't know exactly how it's going to turn out, but I'm going to trust these people or this program or this set of new friends or just life. I'm going to trust life to help me grow beyond this pattern. Because this pattern is toxic.

Jason Lange: Totally. And I think woven right in there is. You know, it's a phrase that gets thrown around a lot these days. But that move to let go of that old pattern, that fear, that scarcity, that I'll never get this again. So I have to put up with all this other stuff to I want something more, I deserve something more, usually involves a huge reawakening of self love, of, wow, I don't deserve to be treated like this. I deserve to be in a relationship that's full of ease and connection and we can talk through disagreements and it's not war. Right? Doesn't mean there's not friction and there's not going to be ups and downs and, you know, broken, broken promises and hurts and whatnot. But in General, the relationship is nourishing us, not depleting us. And that I deserve that. Right. As a shift, we've helped walk some guys through of just like, I just. I have to know that I deserve that because otherwise I'll keep walking into these same situations and patterns and normalizing them. And once there's that like, claiming of that other thing, things start to reorient.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Possibilities emerge. Guys can step into different experiences and relationships and be vulnerable in different ways. And suddenly they're met with someone in their vulnerability and not attacked for it. And it's like, oh my God. And then that feeling of, wow, I was vulnerable and not attacked or rejected becomes a different type of fuel for an amazing kind of connection and sex, where it's actually flowing from our safety, our connection, that this whole other thing gets to come online. I think that is a joy when we get to see guys experience that. Right. Where they're like, wow, that was great. And I don't have to put on armor for the next week for the rest of my life around that. Like, I get to feel good the rest of the week too.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's a great point. I remember one of. I think a red flag in any relationship is passive aggression. And I remember that this boyfriend of mine and I did not navigate conflict well at all. And I remember we were on a trip once and he. Do you remember in high school when you'd. Be. He was driving a truck and I was getting in the passenger seat and he pulled the truck ahead. Right. Like when I tried to open the door, he pulled the truck ahead and he did it like three or four times. And I just felt really deflated and like discouraged at the end. And I remember getting in the truck and saying, are you mad at me about something? And he was like, no. And I thought to myself, this is basically hell. I'm stuck in this truck. We had to go home. It was like a 12 hour trip or something. And I was like, I'm in hell. I'm in hell. I'm stuck in a vehicle with this person who's not going to tell me what's actually going on. I have to try to figure it out kind of. It was just awful. And that sense of never really knowing where you stand but knowing something is wrong, I think is a common experience that a lot of people have in a relationship. That's a red flag. That is a red fucking flag. If you feel like you're kind of always in the doghouse and sometimes you know why. But a lot of times you don't. That's not a good sign, because it. One of the things it means is this ex of mine, he was never really willing to make himself vulnerable. He was never willing to say, it hurt my feelings when this happened last night. So I never fucking knew what the hell it was. I still, to this day, I'm like, I don't know what it was that. That time, right? Because he didn't ever tell me. And I don't know whether he was consciously aware of his triggers and chose not to tell me or whether he didn't even know. I don't know. But that. That sense of just feeling like you're in the wrong or you did something wrong or something's wrong but you're trying to sleuth it out, that's a sign that this is not a healthy relationship. Because in a healthy relationship, I think it takes both people being aware and especially around hurt feelings, being able to talk about hurt feelings and meet those without shaming the other person. Because that, I believe, is the fear is that if he said, it hurt my feelings last night when, you know, you. You didn't come back for a long time, and I didn't know where you were. If I then shame him for that, he's less likely to tell me the next time. And I think whatever his background was, he didn't or wasn't able to talk about that stuff. And it just made it impossible for us to fix anything, which was not. It just wasn't safe.

Jason Lange: Totally. And I think, you know, another thing would be maybe from his perspective was not having the capacity to admit he missed you or felt hurt because, you know, a man doesn't feel that. And I think that can sometimes tie into, you know, part of the trick of the trauma energy, the trauma sex, that connection is it's so fulfilling because it's getting you somewhere you wanted to get it when you were young. But it's also the thing that prevents you from going beyond that in a lot of ways. And so we often see that with guys whose energy is still with. Maybe they're not having sex with that person anymore who they had the trauma sex with or that this thing got activated with. But days, weeks, months later, their energy is still there. And part of what it ends up costing them is actual relationships that are available to them with partners who can do things a little differently. But it does need a little bit more of that investment of time to build up that safety and trust and vulnerability that then fuels what I would argue is that more connected sexual Experience. So instead of putting in the time there there's like, well, she doesn't feel as right. Like we often hear that. Like it's just, I don't know, it just, it doesn't feel exciting in helping guys navigate that. There's no book, you know, or workflow list we can take people through. It's so individualized, but starting to build some awareness between when is some of the excitement I feel for someone genuine. Like there's turn on and possibility and connection and when is it this old trauma stuff coming up and when can I learn to distinguish and know that wow. Actually the person who I really could build that relationship or have that experience I've really always wanted with a partner with. They may not trigger that. So I have to be willing to look a little deeper than that. It's not to say you're not going to be super attracted to your partner. Guys, sometimes we'll get that pushback. But I want to be attracted to my partner, you know. And I'm like, well, what you think of as attraction isn't always the only thing you can think of as attraction. There's another thing, you know, that can build and emerge and be formed, but just starting to have some of that awareness, you know, of. Yeah, I don't recommend to most of our guys to like go after their, their 11s and 12s and 13s on the scale of 10, so to speak, in terms of excitation. Not, not even just attractiveness, but there's like a right that compulsion in the nervous system that says I gotta, gotta. I gotta take her out. She said she couldn't go next Thursday, so I'll ask her. I'll wait three days and I'll ask her next Friday.

Melanie Curtin: You gotta get her attention. Yes, I gotta get her attention. I gotta get her attention. I gotta get her.

Jason Lange: I gotta get something from her. So that's a big part of trauma sex.

Melanie Curtin: It feels exciting and titillating to get the attention or to try to get the attention. And I think that's a really good point you made of. Definitely seen it in clients of going for women that are maybe not age appropriate or they're not a lot in common or there's just, there's. But there's something that they're like, I just really want her. Like, I just really like her. I just. There's just something about her. And many times they don't even know that much about her. It's just this, this possibility, this potential, this thing out of reach that is many times sort of like the love, the connection, the belonging, the, the whatever it was that we really, really wanted, that we were longing for when we were little, that's now wrapped up in this sexy body of this person. It's such a compelling combination. Right. You add sexuality into longing and it's incredibly powerful. So yes, I've seen that repeatedly and I think that that is. Yeah. A lot of what was compelling to me about that partner was I wanted, I wanted, I wanted, I want it, I got it. Oh my God, I'm so high. Oh, I lost it. I wanted, I wanted, I want it. And that roller coaster is extremely addictive. And you know, psychologists will talk about that cycle and that pattern that is, is compelling precisely because of the precipices. So once you're with a partner who you do feel secur and where there aren't those precipices, it's an adjustment, it takes, it's an adjustment to actually be in safe partnership. And sometimes it can come with some self made precipices of the nervous system trying to pick a fight or do something to generate that sense. And I think that's a good example of where in a conscious partnership you start to do some attachment work together and say, what's going on here? Cause this feels, this something feels off here. But you're a team in figuring it out. You're a team in growing. You're a team and growing with, with that pattern instead of just reenacting it. And there's no consciousness there. It's just you're trying to survive. They're not really paying attention to you on a deep level. They're just doing their own thing. It's not the same thing as two conscious partners seeking to grow together.

Jason Lange: Yeah, those, that, those parts as they come up ideally are met with, by love with each other, by each other rather than ammo or attack or withdraw. Right. Like there's, it's used differently. Oh, hey, this thing's coming up. Like, what's going on for you? Is there something I don't know or you know, how can we do this differently? Are there words you need to hear or, you know, do you just need a hug right now? You know, different things start to emerge that you can collaborate on and then it does start to, I think, change in my experience, my nervous system. You know, it's, it's, it's more subtle. Yeah, everything's there. It's just not the, the rocket ship, you know, five cups of caffeine. It's, it's more like, wow, I Just feel. This feels good, you know, which can even like this. In some ways that could be more boring if you don't know, but you're like, wow. Actually it's so much better feeling good the majority of the day than being on that rocket ship down and then shooting back up and just the slingshot effect and what we've seen it do to guys in their nervous systems and then the almost like catching of breath that happens on the other side of like, oh, wow, okay, I can go. I'll go meditate today and go do this thing. And then suddenly their. Their bodies come alive again. Hope comes alive.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So, yeah, as we start to wrap.

Jason Lange: Here.

Melanie Curtin: Is there anything else that you would want to add in terms of if there's a guy listening that's sort of nodding along the whole time, like, yeah, this feels really familiar. What would you say to that, man?

Jason Lange: Book a call with us. Time to get some feedback. I'm happy to talk to you about your situation and give you my honest take because that is, you know, one of the great gifts I think we can offer in this work and that long term, in particular, getting into community and connection with people that care about you, who know your patterns can. Can really just be like, come on, like, it's happening again. I can see it. I care about you. I don't want this for you. What's going on. Right. Like, before we even bite off that whole thing to chew and the detour and the pain that can often comes with those highly com. You know, I would say like highly combustible relationship. They're charged. Right. So the energy that comes out can be profound, but it can also burn down your whole life in a day. Like in an instant. Yeah, that's, you know, having people on your team to help you. Not like that match can be important or just help you. You know, the other thing we see with a lot of guys we've talked about before is, and this isn't even what we do for our guys, this is what our guys do for each other, is get to talk to a man who's five steps, just five steps ahead down the road, who's like, I thought I could never do that. I thought it was impossible. I was afraid I would never find a partner like that again. And here I am, you know, six months later, a year later, and holy shit, it's so much better. Like, I'm telling you, it's so much better. I'm actually living it right now. Like, and, you know, we can't even offer that part but we've seen many of our guys offer that, and that alone starts to create some space for possibility of, wow, maybe I don't have to live in this anymore. Maybe this roller coaster isn't the only way and I can claim more and I do deserve more and I want it to be, you know, easier.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think that's one of the most gratifying parts about this sort of long term work is now that we do have so many alumni, when guys come in, it feels very natural to say, oh, you need to talk to this person. Like the men who have been in long term marriages and are scared to leave them because they don't want to lose connection with the kids. They'll be like, talk to this guy and this guy, this guy's one year out, this guy's two years out, you know, and it's just irreplaceable. Nothing we could say would be the same as that connection being made. And that guy saying, I was terrified too. I was really scared that it would change my relationship with my kids. They're the most important thing in my life and it's actually working out better. And my kids are glad that mommy and daddy are doing their thing instead of trying to, quote, unquote, make it work, which, you know, a lot of. I think our clients have had children who are glad that the parents are following their heart and not choosing to stay in that dynamic. So, yeah, that's, that's something that's been actually one of my favorite parts of, of the program growing is just watching the connections between, between men and like you said, the hope that is generated in that. And yeah, I think that in, in my own case and anything. One thing I would also offer to a man listening who's nodding along is reconnect with an old friend, someone that knew you before, and try to spend a couple of days with them if you can. A weekend, something where you're more than just a few hours, because it takes at least 12 to 24 hours for your nervous system to wind down. At least that was the case for me. It took at least a day. And they say that a friend is someone who knows the song in your heart and can sing the words back to you when you've forgotten them. And that was definitely a time that I had forgotten them. And my friend, just being with her was, was really healing. So if that's a possibility for you, I would really recommend that. And if you are interested in getting in touch with us, you can also watch our training, which is at evolutionary men training.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And I would just say, you know, at a very broad level, is your relationship a source of nourishment for you or source of stress? You know, you just want to feel into that because it is possible to have a relationship that's a source of nourishment for you, and that's what we want for every guy we work with.

Melanie Curtin: Yes. Love that.