142: Afraid of being called creepy? This could be why | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Then something must be wrong with me. I must be a bad person because I keep feeling that urge, right? I keep feeling drawn in that way. So something must be wrong with me.

Melanie Curtin: Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. And my favorite co host, Jason Lange. Just going to call you a co host because you're on so much today. We are talking about something that I've noticed in a number of our clients and really struck me the other day. One of our clients was talking about this fear of being creepy, the fear of coming across as creepy, the fear of being perceived as creepy, if you're being creepy. And it is a level of, I think, for this man in particular, but I think for a lot of men that I know, it's not just a concern, it's like a terrorist. Like, I'm deeply afraid. I'm terrified of coming across as creepy. And it caught my attention because it feels like there are several layers to this conversation, and there are sort of several layers to that fear. There's the surface fear, and then there's a deeper fear. And I want to get into that to help if there are men listening that have this fear. And part of the reason that it feels really important in the context of sex and relationships is that for a lot of men, it seems like this fear of being seen as creepy is blocking them from doing anything related to the feminine. They're not. They don't want to approach. They're scared to. There's just a lot of fear. There's a lot of. They're scared to do anything. Right. Expressing interest, being, you know, I don't really like the word escalating, but sort of like moving things forward on a date, right? Like putting his hand on her back or like leaning in to kiss her. Like, any movement, even just approaching a woman, smiling at a woman, being, you know, feeling his attraction with a woman, all of that is stopped. It's like a blocker, like this huge blocker of that fear that's keeping a man sort of encased and trapped in his own, I don't know, soup of soup of whatever. So, yeah, so I want to talk about this, and. And I'm just wondering for you, you know, where do you think that fear comes from for men? You know, there's a couple of different places, but what could you take us through where you think it comes from?

Jason Lange: Yeah, there's definitely a few threads I think we can dive into here.

Melanie Curtin: One.

Jason Lange: Of which, you know, the thing I'll just name first is that cage or that soup or whatever. We want to call what you just spoke. Right. That one of the struggles with it, I think, is it's. It can create a lack of authenticity. Right. Because authentically my body is experiencing something or an interest or something. But right. There's like a phrase and I'm not being authentic to what's true to me. And I think that can be painful for a lot of us men and can create a lot of aftershocks and unattended consequences. Right. When we're not in alignment with that. And so, you know, what leads up to that, I think are a couple different things. You know, the probably broader end of the spectrum that we might talk about first is the different ways that we learn to not be comfortable with our sexual desire as men or shamed for it. And you know, there's no just one source of that. So that could be culturally, you know, in general, as we've talked about before. Right now there's a different cultural field now post me too. There's a lot more awareness of sexual dynamics and energy and what obvious harm that can cause, particularly in power structures that we've seen. So there's a lot of men, I think, who feel that like, oh, wow, there's awareness on this in ways that I don't want to be a part of. Right. I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be a me too guy. So there's that kind of most recently and I think farther back that, you know, many of our clients have struggled with are conditioning from our families about, you know, what's okay sexually to talk about or just no talk at all for a lot of us. Right. It's just not something present in the house, not something discussed. Maybe at, you know, at most we got sex education in sixth and seventh and eighth grade. You know, a teacher pointing at diagrams in a book and then it's just otherwise just not talked about. So there's that family piece and then I would say religion, you know, depending on people's religious backgrounds. And no matter what religion you are, there's healthy expressions of sexuality in it and unhealthy, you know, any sector, denomination. But that definitely, right. There is a kind of long standing tradition of a lot of religion just kind of sweeping that under the rug, not making it okay. You know, sex is only for procreation, which creates an energy in our body, right. Like, oh, thinking these thoughts or having these impulses in itself is. Is bad. And I think at early ages we can internalize that.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I want to speak to this because one of my very, very first clients had a Catholic background, and it took a long time to help him reclaim his sexuality. And what I found so toxic about that particular brand of religion around sexuality was it's a sin to even think about it. It's a sin to even think about it. Like, there was something that just felt so constricting about a set of beliefs that says, you're bad if you're even thinking about it. Because it's like, okay, there's our actions in the world, right? Like, it's almost like you're bad if you even think of being angry. It's like, being angry. There's nothing wrong with being angry. And as you and I have discussed with many of our clients, it's about what you do with that energy. Lashing out at people is not okay, but finding a way to move that energy. So punching a punching bag is great. The actual feeling of energy, of anger is not bad per se. The expression of it, in many ways in our culture is toxic. And that. I think. So there's this fusion of, like, anger is bad. And I just. I don't ascribe to that. And it's a bit like that with the religion thing of sexual thoughts are evil, or there's this thing around it's a sin. It's a sin to think about sex or want sex. And it's not said that way, right? It's more like, well, sex is fine and within the context of marriage, but the feeling around it is, I'm. I'm a shithead if I want sex, right? Like, I'm bad. I'm a sinner. There's this distinction between, as we've talked about before, toxic shame and quote, unquote, regular shame. Like, you know, for example, I, you know, treated my friend like shit just then. I snapped because I was hungry and tired and I wasn't very kind. I'm ashamed of myself. Like, I'm feeling shame over this thing that I did. That's regular shame. Toxic shame is I'm bad. Who I am is bad. And it's not usually conscious, but that's really what it feels like here. At the root of this particular issue of the fear of being creepy is the fear that I'm bad, that my natural impulses and urges are bad. And there's, like, such a fear of being caught out in that. Of, like, oh, my God, someone's gonna see that. I'm gonna see this bad core or something, or the core of the apple. And there's just terror of, like, the worst part of me is gonna be seen and seen as less than or evaluated and, like, tossed aside or shamed and, like, just ostracized. Right. Because to me, when I'm like, the fear of being creepy, when I feel into that, I imagine being a man or a woman, but especially when I imagine being a man, I feel so alone. I feel so alone. Just like, I'm terrible, I'm toxic, like, I'm going to be cast out of the tribe. I'm just alone. Completely alone and bad. And that is terrifying. If I. If I thought that bringing my sexuality forth or asking a woman out or moving towards that in any way, that was going to be the result, I don't think I would do anything. I think I would be completely frozen. And that was another thing that you said early on in this, that I wanted to come back to was what I witness in a lot of our clients is that the result of this fear is the freeze response. It is freeze. It is not fight or flight. It is. It's like deer in the headlights. It's a frozen. Like a man might see an attractive woman across the bar, and then there's a freeze state. It's almost fused. For a lot of our guys, that needs to be. You know, we help them slow down and tease it apart so that there can be different steps. But what I've seen and what I. My understanding from our clients is there's this immediate freeze response. And I'm wondering if you experienced that as a man before you started doing your work, and what if you could speak to what that is actually like.

Jason Lange: Yeah. For me, how that showed up was, you know, as someone who did not have much of a relationship to my sexuality because I didn't have sex other than masturbating with myself till much later in my 20s. Right. The energy itself was kind of uncomfortable in that. Right. My primary. My primary experience of that was with porn, which is one way. There's no. There's. There's no one looking back. Right. There's no relational field there. And being out in the world. And as I started to interact with women and noticing, like, when I'd get attracted and, like, it's almost like a. It's almost like a reverse tractor beam. I can't even if. Right. It's almost like. Like if the magnets are opposites or the same. Sorry. In that, like, you know, I'd want to look, but there'd be this, like, compulsion. Not like. So it'd be like. Like I'd be kind of Something would be pushing me from looking. And I think that was an uncomfortableness with being witnessed in my own body and feeling that energy and have it actually being shared in a relational space. For me, that was just more. I hadn't been witnessed in that. In that, you know, for others, I think actually comes from having been judged in that space. I was lucky compared to some men in that I never got particularly judged for that or, you know, called out on that or anything like that. But, yeah, it's like a fundamental. Just like, discomfort in the body and the. A conflict, right? It's inner conflict because there's the, like, look away, but then my body's like, I really want to look, right? I'm drawn. Like, my energy is drawn here. And that's that authenticity thing I think I was talking about in the beginning that I think contributes to a lot of what we were talking about of this. Like, I'm no good or something's wrong with me. Because we're given, you know, particularly through religion or some family stuff early on that that's not. You know, you shouldn't do that, shouldn't. A moral person wouldn't do that. And then. Yet I keep doing it. My body keeps reacting, right? So internally I can see how it's easy for us to make up the story. Well, then something must be wrong with me. I must be a bad person because I keep feeling that urge, right? I keep feeling drawn in that way. So something must be wrong with me. So there's the shame side of it. I think there and then for me, there was literally just that not having held that energy in my body in a relational space in itself was kind of overwhelming and uncomfortable for me.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I appreciate that last part, especially just the actual physical discomfort of, like, when I think about this, it sounds really exhausting, the battle between I want to look, but I don't want to be an asshole, and the turmoil of my body's trying to look. But I feel like that would be bad. It sounds like a lot of work. And that's something that I've noticed too, in men that I've witnessed kind of reclaim their sexuality from religion is that it's like there's this relaxation that happens in their body as they're reclaiming their humanity. And I really want to advocate for this, that healthy sexuality is a part of your humanity. It's a basic, fundamental human right for you to be able to feel sexual. And that that's a sacred part of you. That is a human right to me. So when I witnessed Men that are reclaiming this and it's like, it's almost like I can see like they're shaking something off and their shoulders become different. You know, I can feel their hips more, their feet on the ground. It's like they, yeah, they reclaim a part of their humanity because it takes so much bandwidth and so much energy to repress this part of yourself. It's just so, I mean, it's just so exhausting. It's something that I've seen repeatedly that it's like I can see a man get bigger. Almost like his spirit, it gets bigger as he reclaims this part of himself. And that's kind of what I want to sort of point us towards is what does a man do about this? What can he do to reclaim his sexuality and to essentially help himself overcome that fear of being seen as creepy?

Jason Lange: Yeah. I think, you know, I can certainly share some of my experiences and then we can talk a little bit about how we, we work with our men. But I think what you just clued in into there of like what we witness in guys bodies and what you witness even outside of the program. Right. Is more ease to some extent because that, that experience I talked about of like part of me wants to look, but then I have this inner critic or shame or religious background or something in me or even just my own limitation of self worth. Like I'm not good enough for her. I can't look. I can't look. Right. Like that in itself can be another thing that would prevent us from looking. That's conflicting energy. Right. So it's like it's tension in. It's tension that's not moving. Right. It's one fist pushing into each other. There's just a standstill. I think that can be. Yeah, yeah, it's stuck. It's what can cause that kind of freeze response. But it's not like a freeze in that there's no motion. It's like a freeze between I want to look, but I can't look or I shouldn't look because X. Right. And what we see on the other side is that tension gets released. So there's more space, there's more breath, there's more taking up of space. There's more connection possible between the man and himself and the man in the world, the man and whoever he's engaging with. And you know, two milestones for me in my journey were I think, right in themselves. They're not necessarily better or worse. Like we'll talk about, I think what the healthiest versions of this type of stuff would be, But I think they have some important developmental components in them.

Melanie Curtin: And.

Jason Lange: And for me, on the one hand, it was the first time I ever went to Europe and was, like, in Italy. And the first thing I noticed, actually, was how the men looked at the women. How men looked at women there. Like, they looked at women, right? Like, coming down the street and top to bottom.

Melanie Curtin: Wish you guys could see doing the scan, because it's pretty fun.

Jason Lange: Like a full. Full scan, right? And then. And they wouldn't hide it. Like, she knew they were looking, and, like, there was even some energy in that sometimes. Or, you know, there'd be, like, cars driving by, and they would literally slow down their car to take in a woman. And I was like, whoa, is that different? I was, you know, again, not necessarily better or worse. I was just like, wow, that is very different. And that is not a capacity I had in my nervous system at the time to, like, just allow myself to enjoy to that extent. And that was one of the first times I really kind of noticed that because I was shown something else, I guess you could say it was like, oh, there's. There's. Some of this is just my personal nervous system. Some of this is my cultural conditioning, because here I am somewhere else, and I see men experiencing women very differently. And, you know, again, like anything, some of those guys are going to be creeps. Some of those guys are not going to be creeps. But it was still another possibility, right, that I got to actually practice a little bit over there of, like, hey, it's a little bit more in the cultural field here. It's kind of okay to just like, check a woman out and enjoy her. That was a huge edge for me in that experience and in being overseas.

Melanie Curtin: I would agree as a woman as well. When I first went abroad, one of the countries I went to was Costa Rica. And I remember being like, whoa, this is different. This is really different. And I felt much more seen. I felt much more seen and more desired, and it was totally new. Like, I did not experience that in the States. And for me, I didn't feel unsafe. It wasn't the feeling of. It wasn't, I'm less safe here. It was, whoa, I'm more seen here. Like, men. I didn't know men were interested in me. Like, I feel like I went through a lot of my college years being like, well, I guess I'm not attractive because I wasn't really approached and I wasn't really pursued. And I think that there is something I do. I'm just gonna claim this. I think there's something toxic about American culture and sexuality. I think we're fucking weird around sexuality because we've got it all over the place on TV and everything. But then we do shame the shit out of it in everywhere else. Like it's not. Don't have a healthy relationship with it. And so it's not really that surprising that many people struggle having a healthy relationship. Sexuality in the US I can't speak for other English speaking countries because I've never lived there, but having been to many countries around the world and then back to the us I don't think that we have a particularly healthy version of it here.

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we can. There's a way that there's a mirror between how that plays out culturally and personally, though I think we'll talk about next. That that's very important. But. So there was experience of going abroad and then there was the experience. You know, I think I was probably in my early 20s. It was the first time I went to Vegas and I went to a strip club. And that was a really intense experience for me initially, right? To be able to go into a space and to actually just be able to look, right? Like literally that's why people are there. And even with that container, you know, my body still felt a little tension, right? And being there. And you know, I haven't been to a ton of strip clubs, but I've. I've been to a few. And noticing as I grew in my journey, the allowing myself to enjoy the experience, right? Just, just, just that, like, just allowing myself. Okay, it's okay to look. She knows I'm looking. It's okay to be looking. And again, I think what that did is it stretched something in my nervous system to kind of like, oh, that's okay. The energy in itself is not good or bad, right? The energy in itself is just a natural experience for men in particular. We are visually oriented, right? A lot of times. And that's just kind of part of our nervous systems that we have to take responsibility for. You know, that's other stuff we'll talk about. Um, but that is natural in itself. And for me, just having the experience of being like, it's okay to look and enjoying. Enjoying looking was actually a very empowering masculine experience for me. It's like, oh, I can enjoy looking, enjoy her body, enjoy her feminine radiance, enjoy that whole experience. And those were two, two moments that are similar in some ways that started to stretch that open and give me more capacity for then how to integrate that into actual life.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I remember again, this was early on in my coaching career, I took three of my clients to a strip club. This was when I lived on the East Coast. And it was really great actually because we met up beforehand, like sort of like next door and we talked about like intentions and it was fun though. It was fun. It was like, it was a group, you know, it was like, what are you looking to get out of this? Like, what's your experience? Have you ever been to a strip club? What's your, you know, it sort of bonded the group and then we went and I don't think we were there for more than an hour. But it was such an edge for these guys. It was such an edge to be seen in looking. Exactly what you said. It's being seen in looking. Like, I am looking. People are seeing me look. And it's okay. They are not yelling at me, screaming at me, shaming me, telling me I'm a sinner. I'm having an experience of looking and it's kind of okay. I'm still alive. Because I do think there is an existential, as I said, a root fear of I might die, like I might get ostracized and be shamed forever. That I don't think is conscious. But I do think something exists around toxic shame. And I think especially going with, with a woman, with me, with a sex positive woman who is holding that with them of, I see you in this and it's okay. I see you in this and this is sacred. I'm glad you're here. Like you're safe. Like, I see you here and it's okay. I think was really healing. And then we, and then we left and we went back and got another drink at the same place and kind of debriefed and. And it was cool. It was cool to just hear some of the reflections and the, you know.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Jason Lange: So out of alignment.

Melanie Curtin: Out of alignment, yeah. I liked what you said about authenticity and actually bringing all of oneself. And I think that's what I've seen in these marriages and the men that I've seen in these is they weren't able to bring all of themselves. So they were constantly cutting off pieces of themselves or like, I've got to hide that I've got it. And back to the bandwidth thing. That takes a lot of energy to trim, to trim out parts of ourselves all the time and be like, well, this isn't acceptable, this isn't acceptable. And it's almost like the frog and boy boiling water where you might not notice over time that this part of me has been cut off and this part of me has been cut off and that topic is off the table. And this topic is off the table. And now you're just really small, you know, you're just really small and really not resourced. Right. So it's hard to actually see what's next. And I think that's been something that's been a joy to witness in some of our men, is watching them sort of explain expand and bloom and realize like they're, they're claiming their freedom and their, you know, community is witnessing them do that.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's like a deep reclaiming of self honoring, you know, it's just like, ah, okay, this part of me is okay and it's natural and I value it and I don't have to shun it or hide it or make it wrong anymore. And something happens right. In our nervous system when we're not at war with ourselves. Like you said, you can see the ease, the shoulders, the height, the breath, the face. There's just like, ah, okay, I'm here, I can just be here. And whatever arises, I don't have to be at war with. Right. I can be okay with my experience. And not only that, like I can celebrate it. Right. The right partner, guys, you know, not all Guys believe this, but the right partner out there wants that part of you wants to feel your desire, wants to know that she or he turns you on. Right. Like, they. They want to know that's in your nervous system. And it's a beautiful thing when. When that energetic exchange happens and we realize, oh, actually this isn't something to be ashamed of, but this is a incredible part of me that, so I like to say, is actually one of the gifts I can offer my partner. Right. My desire for her, for him. And that. That sharing of that exchange, you know, creates an energetic exchange that makes us more. Both more full and connected. That. Yeah, we love to support men in making that transformation.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. So as we start to wrap up here, I'm just wondering if there's any other tips that you have. Just the tip. Because some people aren't gonna be able to go abroad or. Well, maybe. And a strip club. A strip club also, I think it's worth noting, can be complicated, and it can be a nourishing experience. It can also be a draining experience. I know a number of men I worked with have said, that does not work for me.

Jason Lange: I don't care.

Melanie Curtin: It's not the right environment. So we're not offering that as like a. This works for everyone. J was just offering. This was a part of my path. But are there any other tips that you have for a guy, if he's listening and he's like, yeah, I've got this fear, and it does inhibit me. It does prevent me from.

Jason Lange: Yeah, the piece I'll speak to that might be useful, and you may even be able to share a story here is like, so what is creepy? Like, what's the truth behind the fear that has caused this energy in our culture, in interaction? And I think there's a way that plays out personally and culturally in that when something is disowned or not owned or we're not comfortable with it, it's not circulated, it's not engaged with in an authentic way. It tends to come out sideways. So culturally, like what you said.

Melanie Curtin: Sex.

Jason Lange: Is Everywhere in the U.S. right? Like little Disney ads for teen girls are dressed up like they're 30. We see all these car commercial. It's just. It's everywhere. Porn usage is something like a fourth of Internet traffic. And then every year, the last couple of years, the stats have come out, particularly here in the US Less people are having actual sex every year. Right. So there's this huge disconnect between what's actually happening and what's being shown to us. And part of what I would say is culturally right there, because there is this shadow around it of its bad. You know, we were kind of a puritanical culture here in the States. That's how we were founded. That lingers in a lot of ways. So because we can't just say, like, hey, sex is awesome in some. One of the most magical parts of the human experience that we want to embrace and create safety and structure around it comes out sideways. Right. Comes out sideways in the culture. And so that same thing, I think, is what happens in an individual happens for us. That can lead to creepiness. Right. So if I am at war at myself and I'm not comfortable with the part of me that looks or that can enjoy or it can take a woman in, so I'm actually at conflict with myself. Right. And there's the two ways this tends to show up the. The shifty eyes, like taking a peek. Taking a peek. Taking a peek, but not making eye contact. Or as soon as she looks, I look away. There's something that doesn't resonate as trustable in that. Right. Because I'm not trusting myself.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: I could see it'd be very clear for a feminine partner to like, oh, what's going on? Is this guy.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Checking me out? Or why is he not cheating? Is he here with somebody else? Like, what's going. You know, I can just imagine a lot of the things that go through. Or there's the other masculine piece of. I so lose touch with the present moment, it becomes unconscious. So I am just the impulse which usually leads to no breath. And you know, that I'm trying to think of, it was maybe Warner Brothers, but it's one of those old cartoons, right? They'd be like the wolf and, like, a woman would go by and his eyes would just go big and his draw jaw would drop and drool would come out and he just freeze. I think that's the other side of it that can come through in that we get so lost in just the object of the moment. Right. Literally, it's just something I'm seeing. The sensation that our whole body gets disconnected. And that's usually often when we're stuck. Like that term objectification, like, that's kind of what they mean. It's like there's no circulation of the energy. And it's just, you know, this is something I had to work through in my own ways. Now that I'm remembering it of, like, it's just body parts. I'm seeing her body parts, not her. And women I think can feel that men can feel that too, right? When someone's just like, ooh, just seeing us for our parts. And I think when there's that. There's either that kind of shifty back and forth or that just totally lost in that I'm not even aware that I'm totally just like locked on to someone. Right. And if I'm not aware of it, how could he or she trust me in that moment? Right? Like, what. What is this? Right. It's just. That's an untrustable experience, I would say, at the deeper level of what we talk about. And there's usually very little breath there. And that's what tends to kind of come across as creepy in that more individual sense that our work as men is to, yes, reclaim, but reclaim it with breath, reclaim it with awareness. Reclaim it with the full human experience. Right? Head, heart and the sensation of the body. Right. This is a. This is a human being who probably would love to know she's making someone's day and has maybe had guys cat calling her every day on the way to work when she didn't want it for years. Right. So she may have her own thing around that. That as you just feel into the whole person, I think changes the nature of that connection. I think there's a lot more eye contact as well.

Melanie Curtin: My experience is. So I think I've shared this before, but what I remember is it was like 4pm I was at a library and this guy at the table across the way was staring at me for a while and I'm reading my book, I'm trying to focus and I can, I can feel it and I don't know what to do basically. So I think he was the second thing that you mentioned fused with the moment and just, you know, glazed over eyes, sort of like this doesn't feel safe to me. It doesn't feel safe. And what I did was I said to him, you know, you're staring at me and. Because I didn't know what to do. And the reason I said it was 4pm Is because I had walked to the library and knew I had to walk home. And it was starting to get to be dusk. And so in my world, I don't know him, I don't know anything about him and the focus of attention. And he wasn't really breathing and there wasn't any real attunement to me as a person. Right. It wasn't like, you know, when people are flirting and it's like he's looking at me and Then he kind of smiles and he looks down or, you know, there's a sense of, like, I can tell.

Jason Lange: Mutual recognition.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I can tell that you. Oh, you caught me. I'm looking at you, but, like, I'm comfortable with that. Like, I'm breathing. I think it's kind of funny. It's like, that wasn't there. And so because that wasn't there, now I'm thinking, am I gonna be safe walking home? You know, do I need to tell someone? Like, all of these fear thoughts are now going through my head, which is, I think, a common experience for a lot of women. You know, there's a quote that goes, men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them. And that's how I felt in that moment. I was like, am I gonna be okay on this walk home? Like, are you thinking of raping me? Like, I can't tell where you are in the range of this thing. And that was scary. And as soon as I said, you know, you're staring at me, he stopped. But it was like. I think he went into a shame response. There wasn't. There wasn't like a. Like, oh, sorry. Like, you're right. I thought you. I thought you were pretty, you know, like an attunement to. We're two human beings interacting. It was. It was like there was a separation. It felt. It felt kind of separate. So to me, yeah, the difference between creepy and not creepy, it is a lot energetic. It's not, you know, do this, don't do this. You know, look, behavior that, you know, might seem exciting if a man is breathing, grounded in his body, appreciating me. The same. The same quote unquote thing. Right? He's looking at me across the club. The same thing will feel trustable in one man who's breathing and with himself and has done the work, versus creepy, which is like, he's kind of. It feels like he's kind of leaning in. And I'm like, are you gonna stop if I say no? Because that's the line for me is like, that's what feels creepy. I don't know if you would say no or sorry. If you would listen to my no. And that is creepy. If I know you're gonna listen to my nose, then it's kind of like I feel appreciated or I feel. It's exciting. It's exciting. It's not creepy.

Jason Lange: I think that's a spot on assessment of, like, in that instance, it's like not even aware I have awareness on someone Right. It's like this double disconnect versus like I'm aware I'm putting my attention on you and I'm noticing the impact. Right. If I see your body tighten up, like I'm probably gonna. Right. I'm gonna relax my gaze and look away because I don't want you to feel in danger. But if I'm not even aware I'm looking at you, how could you trust that? Like I said, on the one hand, so there's just the kind of total disconnect. And then there's also, I think the, the, you know, I think there can be a version of the more predatory, like actual me too version of this which is like, well, it's my right or something. Like I. Right. I was telling you I can think of some imagery of like clubs I've been to in big cities where there's literally these kind of guys on the perimeter, like stone faced, just like locked on to women. Like, it's quite hard to describe, but it's like I'm going to look at you until you notice me. Because I deserve you. Right. Like, like it's, it's like you have to. I can't even quite put my finger on it, but it's, it's a date. It's a dangerous energy, right. Where they're. In some sense, I'm aware I'm putting it on you, but I'm not aware of the impact or the human on the other side.

Melanie Curtin: And I'm gonna be pissed at you if you don't. If you don't.

Jason Lange: Yes.

Melanie Curtin: Like if I buy you a drink, I deserve your attention. I'm entitled. I'm now entitled to your attention. If I've put attention on you for a while, you should give me your number. If you agree totally, you should have sex with me. There's like a, like these unspoken rules of like, socializing.

Jason Lange: Yes, that's it. That's totally it.

Melanie Curtin: Like, okay, now I've bought you and it doesn't have to do with money, but it, it's. It's like I feel a pressure to, to do something sexual because of something else. It doesn't feel like a choice exactly. It's like, well, I deserve this.

Jason Lange: Yeah, there's need attached, right? There's, there's need. I'm not just enjoying you for the sake of enjoying you. There's an expectation that the second you notice me checking you out, that has to lead to something which I think is, is that is another dangerous version of kind of what we're talking about. There in that. So, you know, some of our guys, because, you know, again, because this is so, in a lot of ways repressed in our culture and we don't have healthy models of how to do this or places to experience this, it can come out sideways. And a number of clients we've worked with have actually been called out or shamed. Like, whoa, are you going to keep looking at her? Or, you know, and that can be extraordinarily traumatizing. Right. Especially if we already had some kind of back baggage from our religion or family or just early experiences that can be really intense for guys to work through. And one of the things, you know, we certainly do try to work with our men around. Okay, you know, what is it you can do to make sure you're bringing the healthiest version of this energy out in the world so it doesn't come off as creepy? And, you know, there's a lot of different techniques that we work with guys around that include breath and pacing and also just coming back into right relationship with that part of ourselves and knowing it's okay.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah. I think that's been what I've seen as really impactful is literally just sharing the story with our community, with us. There's something that lets go of. I told my story. I told that story of when that girl looked at me and was like, you're creeping out, my friend. Just telling the story and being witnessed in the story and having a bunch of human beings hold you with love around that and see you as worthy. You are a worthy man. Even with that story. Right. Even with this past or all of that other stuff, you are still a worthy individual and you deserve to be loved. So we're going to start to wrap here. If you are interested in our community, you can take our free training, which is at Evolutionary Men Dearmen. Again, that's Evolutionary Men Dearmen. And if you're interested in learning more or going deeper than just the podcast, I would encourage you to take that free training.