I had the chance to sit down with Melanie Curtin and my wife Violet on her podcast Dear Men to talk about something that comes up constantly in my work with men. The difference between a healthy feminine storm and actual abuse in relationship.
This is tricky territory for a lot of guys. I see men constantly walking on eggshells, exhausted and drained, not knowing if what they're experiencing is normal relationship conflict or something darker. We got into the mechanics of what makes a storm healthy versus destructive. The big piece is connection and consent. A healthy storm, there's still eye contact, there's still breath happening between you. You might be in intense energy together, but you're in it together. The abusive version, that connection is just gone. It's pure assault, no attunement to how it's landing on you.
We talked about the language piece too. You versus I statements. When it becomes a string of "you're this, you're doing this, you always," that's a red flag we're sliding into abuse territory. Versus "I'm experiencing this, I'm feeling this." Big difference. And boundaries. If you set a boundary and it gets respected, even imperfectly, that's healthy. If it gets completely ignored over and over, that's abuse.
One thing that hit me listening back is how many men normalize this stuff. Our nervous systems get calibrated to chaos if that's what we grew up with. A men's group can be lifesaving here. Other men can see what you can't see anymore. They can tell you, hey man, that's not normal. You don't have to live like this.
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Jason Lange: Something happens, we make up a story about why that happened, and we come out and project it on the other person. Well, you did this. You're doing this. Versus, well, I'm experiencing this. I'm experiencing this, I'm experiencing this. And then it turns out, right, something else totally was happening. Doesn't mean that my feelings aren't invalid.
Melanie Curtin: Right.
Jason Lange: I still had that experience in my body, but it wasn't necessarily the other person's fault.
Melanie Curtin: Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode. I am happy to have both Jason and Violet with me. Some of my favorite guests. Thank you for being here.
Jason Lange: We're excited to be back.
Melanie Curtin: Our pleasure. So this is an episode I've been wanting to do for a while, and I'd say it's a little bit of a sensitive topic, because what we're talking about is the difference between a woman expressing her feminine storm and her being abusive. And the reason. For me, the reason it's sensitive is that I feel like it's been rare that I have felt safe actually expressing my hurt or my anger or my upset with a man and actually feeling like it's been held. And at the same time, I think that there are a lot of men who've had the experience of being shamed or belittled or attacked or physically attacked. So emotionally attacked or physically attacked or having sex be withheld from them or some other vindictive form of behavior that could be labeled abuse and in some cases is definitively abuse. And there's a. There's a line there, right? There's a line between those two things that I think is complex, and that's what we're going to be talking about. So I would be curious to hear from you two, you know, your experience as a woman and as a man, what it's like to be in your storm and express that. Like, you know, Jason, you probably wouldn't classify it as storm, but what it's like for you to be in your. In your storm or your upset and what it's like to express that. Like, what. What is that experience like for you on a personal level before we go into the, you know, rest of it? Your storm or my storm?
Jason Lange: Your storm.
Melanie Curtin: Oh, I thought you meant Jason having his own storm. Do you mean. No. Experiencing yours? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jason Lange: Okay.
Melanie Curtin: Sorry, just to clarify. So, yeah, I mean, for me, there's this weird dynamic where I got conditioned to not express emotion. And, Todd, that emotions were bad. So I oftentimes was and still am sometimes disconnected from my emotions and then disconnected from my heart and Even if I feel like I'm in my heart, there's this bubbling underneath. And then when it does come out, it almost comes out so forcefully that it is very attacking and shaming and it doesn't have any consciousness to it. And it comes forward and out instead of like our teacher John Wineland says, coming from the back of the heart or having a spacious back of your heart. So it feels like a storm to me. But beyond the element of the storm that's chaotic and, you know, tons of energy, there's also a destructive quality to it that is embarrassing, of course, for me to admit and talk about. But can, can be there now with time and our relationship deepening. I would like to believe it's gotten better, but I definitely have that. And when you, when you say destructive, because I can relate to everything that you're saying. When you say destructive, do you mean, like, I want this person to suffer? That's part of what I want in the communication. Like, what do you mean by that part? Yeah, I think there's a part of me that feels so hurt that I want the other person to feel as bad as I feel, which is punishing and suffering. And there's also this ego quality that's like, I'm right, you're wrong. You need to see, like, what a bad person you are. Which is totally a projection because I have a part of me that feels bad and worthless and, you know, undeserving of love or living or any of those things. So, yeah, it's kind of the desire to get a one up and then also a desire to bring the person as down far as low as I'm feeling. Yeah, I can relate to that. Thank you for speaking so eloquently to that reality. I feel like a lot of us are like, that's not a part of me at all. It's like, yeah, that totally lives in me. And just this quick little tangent, you know, I had this epiphany a few days ago or a week ago that there is this deep yearning or need for me to feel my rage and that I will sometimes create stories or drama, like a fear that Jason's cheating on me or like, looking for something wrong to give me justification to feel my rage instead of just feeling my rage. Because we don't need someone to feel our rage against. We can just recognize that there's a lot of fucked up shit in this world and it's okay to feel enraged. So I think sometimes I, like, make my partner a target of my rage or come up with reasons why I can be enraged in him, to feel permission instead of just expressing the full range of my emotions, which would probably feel a lot better for him to feel me in my rage about the suffering of the world than me attacking him. Wow, that's a great point.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I would say that the other piece that we've experienced together, that sometimes she did it with me, sometimes she did it with other people. But another frame on the storm is what I would. What I labeled, like, dropping the grenade, just like. So it's not necessarily always just directed, like, at hurting me, but it's like, well, we're gonna blow this whole fucker up, right? Like, red alert, relationship at stake. Which. Which is a different version of that, you know, like, drop the grenade and then, boom, things just go crazy. Which is a version of that storm, you know, I mean, it's the kind of thing that it's not unique to us and it's been rare for us, but, you know, it was probably more early on of, like, threats to the relationship itself. Right? Those. That's. That's kind of what I would call red alert in Stan Tackin's work. Work is like, destruction at the root level, right? Like, the. The very framework of the relationship. Calling it into question can really put people on red alert and that, like.
Melanie Curtin: Well, maybe we shouldn't be together at all then.
Jason Lange: Yeah, maybe this won't work out, or. I don't see how this is ever going to, you know, work. And that was. There were. That was rare, but there, you know, there were probably a few times early on that that kind of stuff happened that I think is a version of the storm.
Melanie Curtin: Oh, for sure. I actually remember one of my women friends who's a therapist was describing a fight with her boyfriend, and she was like. She said something like, you know, and then, you know, he threatened the relationship. And at the time, I was like, what the hell does that mean? Like, I don't understand. Like, you're holding a gun to the relationship. I don't understand what that means. But it's kind of like therapy speak for, well, fine, we just shouldn't be together. Well, then I guess this marriage isn't gonna work. And there's. It's fancy words for that sense of, like. It's almost like a kid being like, well, fine, then I'll just leave. It's a lot of the. It feels like, you know, there was something that you just said, Jason, about the destructive quality of that. That's sort of like. It shakes the roots of what. Of what's happening between both people, right? It's like, okay, if you want to make someone feel insecure, this is a great way to do it and to destabilize the situation, which will almost always bring up the attachment stuff of both people, right? The like, well, fine, I'm just. I'll just. We'll just. This will just blow up now. Both people are going to be like you said on red alert. Which is different from. I just want to specify this. Threatening the relationship is different from. This is really hard for me. I have a really hard time right now, right? Like bringing the emotion and what's actually happening of like, I just wanted. I'm feeling desperate in this moment and feeling so desperate and angry. That's different from threatening the relationship. There's a qualitative difference there, which I think is part of what we're going to be getting at in this episode of. Where is that line? Where is the line between abuse and expression? There's something about that of like, I am expressing my experience, I am sharing my feelings. Even if there's a lot of emotion that goes along with it, like. Or passion that goes along with it. Rather than, you're such a fucking asshole. I can't believe you did this shit. Again, that is not sharing your experience.
Jason Lange: Right?
Melanie Curtin: Thing. Even if it has equal passion, it's not the same thing.
Jason Lange: Totally. Distinguishing the language there is so important and something we talk a lot about in the authentic relating work the three of us do. And they talk a lot about nonviolent communication. And that's just the difference between you and I statements, right? You're this, you're doing this you, you, you, you. Which tends to be a little bit more destructive and sometimes abusive and harmful versus more I. I'm experiencing this. I'm feeling this. Totally owning our experience, right? Not. Not making it necessarily the other person's fault, maybe sharing that how you've been impacted by the person when you did this. I felt this. Right? But the emphasis is on the I is. Is a one of the big key differences, I think, between the. That line of you right? When it becomes a string of use. That's kind of a red flag that we're probably not headed the right direction here in this argument right now. That may lead more towards this abusive stuff where we're kind of right on the edge of in this discussion. And the I statements keep it much cleaner in terms of our own experience because we don't always know, right? I mean, this is the classic fight. Something happens, we make up a story about why that happened. And we come out and project it on the other person. Well, you did this. You're doing this versus, well, I'm experiencing this. I'm experiencing this, I'm experiencing this. And then it turns out, right, something else totally was happening. Doesn't mean that my feelings aren't invalid. Right. I still had that experience in my body, but it wasn't necessarily the other person's fault. Right. Let's say. Which is the benefit of using that type of I language that I think is so important. And, you know, I can think of the one story we've talked about a few times in our group that was when I was. You were gone or I was gone, One of us was out of the house, I don't remember. And we were kind of apart. It was after we were together. I think maybe you were gone or something. I was here and you came back, and it was like red alert territory, you know, she was totally activated and came at me strong. And it was because a friend of hers had seen a dating profile of mine on Bumble, which was an app I had used before we even met, and that didn't know that it was the kind of. That it was a little different than the other apps where you have to actually go in there and deactivate yourself. So three fucking years later, they're still showing my profile. So one of her friends sees, says, hey, like, your guy's on here. So. Right. Obviously, she makes up a story like, oh, my God, he must be fucking dating around it. Like, is he having affairs on me? And came at me hard with that. So.
Melanie Curtin: And I did call you before I came home because I was supposed to go to an S Factor class, and I was so worked up. I was like, this is what happened. I'm calling you. I'm just letting you know, because I'm on my way home and I want to talk. So, I mean, maybe I'm just trying to preserve my ego, but, like, there's parts of me that. That, you know, want to regulate the storm. And then there's like, such a torrent of emotion sometimes and such a fear of abandonment and rejection, which is, I think, what dovetails with the borderline episode, because I don'. Consider myself borderline, but I definitely have tendencies because I was raised by someone who's narcissistic and someone who's borderline. So both parents have that going on. So it's just this primal flash that comes through me sometimes when I feel abandoned or rejected.
Jason Lange: Yeah. And that story I was just telling I think is a good example of the type of situation where one way to come in would be, oh my God, you're cheating on me, you're dating behind my back. This stuff is all happening versus I am feeling so hurt and triggered right now because here's what happened in my experience, a friend sent me this, like, what's going on? Right? Which is a big difference in that you versus I language. That takes practice, right? Takes practice in relationship to be able to own our experience and share in that way. And it strikes me that one thing that's probably useful for us to have is the conversation of like, well, what is this? What is a storm in general? Maybe like, and what might a healthy version of a storm be? And what do we even mean by that? And you know, the idea with that is just for a lot of feminine oriented people, whether you're in a man's body or a woman's body, the feminine tends to have large amounts of expression and with sometimes high intensity and sometimes quickly changing, right? So the metaphor here of the storm is, it's like the weather, like things might be fine and then suddenly it's like hurricane, things are going crazy, there's lots of energy and then it may pass, right? So in a healthy, normal, non abusive situation, like the positive thing here is, and where a lot of the men we work with and something I still have to train in is learning to just not fear that storm, right? Sometimes Violet has energy moving through her body and it actually doesn't have anything to do with me, right? That, that's a big learning as a partner. Like sometimes she's just upset about something else or sometimes she is upset about me, but it, it's not actually threatening the relationship. She's just fucking angry right now. And there's just like a being with that energy and letting that storm come and staying connected to her and then it kind of moves, right? And then it's like, okay, goodbye myself, you know, and sometimes this still happens. Get scared of those storms. Oh my God, did I do something wrong? Like, do I have the energy to deal with this right now? Or storm coming, oh my God, I gotta fix the storm. How do I fix the hurricane, right? Like there's, there's, you know, this stupid idea that you could fix a hurricane, right? Like, I don't know, I'm gonna shoot stuff up into the atmosphere to dissolve it. It's like it's not the right energy usually to come with, come at the healthy version of the storm in the feminine, right? It's just Kind of like stay connected, be present in. And eventually it'll kind of pass. Right. So that's like a healthy storm in the feminine is just a burst of expression or energy or a mood that may change. Right. You might be having the best day ever, and then two hours later, just whatever reason, you know, something little, something big, just changing the weather, like, literally the weather outside, who knows? And her mood may change. And so there's a. There's a part of good masculine practice that's just kind of being with that and not being afraid of that and learning to stay connected in that. So that's kind of the healthy version we're talking about. And something. I don't know, maybe you can share what that experience is like from your side.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I mean, I think that there's things that happen in our external environment, like getting a text from a friend that says your husband is on a dating site. And then there's things that happen internally that are like a mood or. You know, different schools of philosophy would say that it all starts inside, but there's different kind of levels and triggers for the storm. And then I think for me personally, during the fight or the storm, and there's things that help to let the storm pass and diffuse, both for my part and my partner. And then there's things that aggravate the storm. So one of them that Jason named is fixing, like, when someone is, like, trying to fix the emotion or quiet down the storm when the storm's not ready to be quiet. Another one.
Jason Lange: I still do it. All the training, all the practice, I still do it.
Melanie Curtin: What that sounds like. What does that sound like? What are the actual words to me? It's like giving me a logical reason of, like, oh, well, you shouldn't feel that way, because I'm sure that person's intention was not this. And it's like, how do you know that person's intention? Like, I'm feeling this and this is.
Jason Lange: Or we could just do this and that. It wouldn't be a problem anymore.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, or just do that. You know, it's like fast solutions or, like, going to harmony too soon or taking the broader perspective. You know, the masculine is great at taking the broader perspective. Like, oh, you'll feel better in a few days or a few weeks, or, you know, your boss will change his mind. Or, you know, I'm sure this person didn't mean it that way. It's like taking the enlightened perspective, but then it feels negating of my experience. And so then I feel like I have to dial up the intensity to be heard, which is. It's all happening very quickly in my body, so I'm not trying to be manipulative. And then also sometimes feeling like I feel wrong, like, oh, I shouldn't feel this way. When I hear that there's this better perspective, I feel shamed. Or like there's a part of the way that sometimes the masculine rates relates to the feminine that feels like, oh, the feminine is less evolved. It's more, you know, immature. Like she's going to have her tantrums, whatever. Like, it's kind of condescending. And Jason doesn't actually do that. But there's. I'm very sensitive to that from being shamed and ridiculed at other parts. At other parts of my life. So it's a lot for me, even just to feel my feelings and. And then share my feelings. And so I think I'm sometimes, you know, sensitive about how those are received. But, you know, the other day we had, like, there was something bubbling up for me, and we practiced something different. You know, I was like, can I show you how I'm feeling without getting into story? And I literally, like, kind of cried and pouted and sat on the ground and stomped my feet. And then once I moved the energy, then I was like, here's what I'm upset about and why. But it was from an I perspective. And then I literally felt better, like, three minutes later, like, nothing had changed in the situation, but it was like, okay, let's go to brunch. It was just so much easier for both of us, I think.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And you. And you felt met, I would imagine, by Jason. You felt like he was present, he was there. He was witnessing your expression. He wasn't checked out on his phone. He wasn't judging your expression. He wasn't somehow belittling it. He was present and he was there with it. And I think that's a good example of, again, first stage, second stage, third stage, masculine feminine dynamics. If you are unfamiliar with that, there's another podcast episode about it. But what you just talked about, Violet, I think, is a good example of third stage relating, which is it is more embodied, and it is. It's going to sound and look different than we have been taught. Because, you know, first stage relating is sort of a bit what we're talking about of the quote unquote, traditional fight, which is she brings up something she's upset about, he gives the logical reason, she gets even more upset, it's a mess. Second stage is like, let's talk about this. Here's where I'm coming from. It's a lot of. It's a lot of talking. It's a lot of talking. It's a lot of, you know, like, I. Statements. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Like we just said, they can be very useful, but it's more therapy style of talk. You know, talk therapy, talking everything out. And third stage is kind of an embodied version where you move more of the energy through your body so that you need fewer words. Words are so important, but they're not. It's not this endless therapy session, which I think a lot of couples can get stuck in second stage. And it feels like the future is third stage. And the reason I'm naming that is because I think for some folks, they might be like, well, that's weird. She, you know, pouted and, like, stomped her feet and, like, isn't that childish? And it's like, you could see it that way, or you could understand that this is infinitely more efficient than trying to talk out this feeling to death, which doesn't actually move the fucking energy. Moving energy must happen through the body. And I think that's what a lot of the field of psychology is grasping now is that somatic therapy and moving energy through the body is way more efficient than talking about it. Because a lot of the time, talking about it doesn't actually do much. It's like an illusion. Like, well, you know, I was just talking to someone the other day who said, this is one of our clients, Jason, and he was talking about couples therapy, and he was like, I feel like we just go to couples therapy and complain about each other. We're not actually moving forward. We don't actually progress. There's no movement forward. And I think that's a good example of the stuckness that can happen in second stage versus third stage, which is like, it's gonna look different. It looks different. It sounds different. It feels different. It's like. You know, another thing that I've heard of third stage couples doing is pushing, like, physically pushing each other, which is not. We're not talking about shoving someone against the wall. We're not talking about physical abuse. We're talking about consensual shoving of like, I'm frustrated. I need to move this. Will you help me move this? I just want to push against you. And I've heard of couples saying after a couple minutes of pushing, they're like, okay, here's what upset me. But the energy has moved. So it's not all pent up in the body, ready to explode. So we've talked a little bit about what a healthy version might look like. Now I want to talk about where is that line? What is abusive when it comes to this topic? Like what is the difference? And maybe Jason, you can speak to, because you've talked to hundreds of men at this point on, you know, our welcome calls into our program and you've heard a lot of stories. What are some examples of abuse, whether that's physical or otherwise?
Jason Lange: Yeah, the first thing I'll launch with dovetails off a little bit of what we were just talking about in terms of the stages and how important they are in that that third stage is only possible when there's a healthy second stage. So even in the example she just gave, there was permission. Hey, can I show you? Right? And then I opted into that like that, that, that was the healthy second stage foundation of that. So there's, there's an agreement, right? There's, there's some agreements and road rules for how we're going to interact that then allow these deeper expressions to come through. And I think just one fundamental thing in the difference between the healthy versions of what we're talking about with Weathering a Storm versus abuse is there's usually not agreement or consent with abuse, right? It's just, boom, I'm on text message and I'm launching into you. We're on the phone, I'm launching into you. You're coming over, I'm launching in you. Right? It's just like a full on assault without checking in with where the person's at and whether or not they're even open or capable of, of receiving that feedback right there. Even if it's good hearted, right. Even like to be very generous in a sense, if it's really important discussion for the relationship and it's above the line and it's good language and all that kind of stuff. If I'm not open and capable of receiving it and you just launch into it, that's more abusive versus kind of getting permission, having a little bit of agreement of what we can talk about. But you know what? I've certainly, what we've experienced in our clients and I've talked to men about is, I mean, there's just a whole range here from like literal hitting, like, you know, women hitting men.
Melanie Curtin: Or throwing.
Jason Lange: Things at them, throwing things at them, breaking things, taking things, verbal abuse, just, you know, that's probably one of the most common ones I would say is just railing into men, often using very Derogatory and like shame based language, right. You're no good, you did this to me. Just boom, boom, attacking, attacking, attacking. And again, you know, it's all one sided, right? It's just an outpouring of force. There's no attunement, there's no seeing how it lands or what the impact is on the other person. And you know, at a deeper level, there's rarely any actual connection, right. It's more, that kind of abuse is more first stage. And I'm feeling this and I want you to feel this, right? You have to feel what I'm feeling right now. That's kind of more first stage, how we kind of move that through. I have to get my feelings out onto you, right? Just boom. Whether I'm upset at you, angry at you or whatever. And there's not necessarily permission there in that situation. So it's pretty common. Or threats to the relationship. Like I said, well, maybe this isn't going to work out or maybe I should go stay with my friend or just that stuff that just cuts away at the foundation of the relationship and whether or not it's even possible are some of the many, many different ways it's shown up for our guys.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, and this is an interesting topic, right? Because if you look at statistics and the. I guess I just want to name the sort of overarching facts of abuse in our culture, which is that it's overwhelmingly levied against women and that we do live in a culture that has historically not protected women from abuse for a very long time and in extreme ways. So this is, this is, we're having this discussion against the backdrop of the reality of that, the reality of the situation. You know, it's like a historical inequality and injustice that has existed for an extremely long time. And this is also true. So this is a specific dynamic that we're addressing within a wider context. Just to kind of name the, the reality and the violence that, you know, you just described, like, and that I've heard from, from men, has often not involved weapons. And whereas women, women that I know that are domestic violence survivors or survivors of intimate partner violence, weapons have been involved. Actual threat to life and to physical bodily safety, like kicks it up to this other level. So I just want to sort of specify like we are talking about an abusive dynamic and it's not the same, it's not the same as a woman who breaks up with a man and then he shows up at her workplace with a gun. That's not the same thing as what we're talking about and they're both important. So I don't think I said that perfectly, but I just feel like it needs to be involved in here. And that sort of takes us to, you know, that question of the line between abuse and expression. And how would a man know, right, if he, if there's a man listening who's like, I don't know, like, is my partner abusive? Like I can relate to a lot of what's being said here. Or for example, cheating, right? Like she's constantly afraid that he's cheating and he, and she's, she puts him down and she's like, well if it's not now, it's just a matter of time. And sort of like, sort of like you're not, you're not good enough or you're not, you know, you're not enough in all of these ways that she's telling him that. Is that abusive? Like where is the line there when it comes to sort of putting, putting a man down? Out of her own fear, which I think is extremely common and a lot of our men have expressed is like, I knew it was coming from her own fear, her own insecurity and so I stayed and all this stuff. Like, even if, you know, how would a man tell whether what's happening is abusive?
Jason Lange: What seems to be a pattern in some of our guys is it, it's considered like there's actually a consistency. So it's, it's not, it's not like a one off thing, right. Usually it happens multiple times. The same kind of dynamic plays out and the same words are often used or the same threats are often used. So there's like a repeating nature to it that I think is one of the first telltales. The other thing that I would say I've noticed for some men is it's just a feeling of it being totally unwinnable. Like that it's just there's no move they can make in the more destructive situations, right? It's like, I don't feel you with me or you know, something like that. And then they make the effort to do it and she's not actually open, so there's no actual movement to it. So she's just constantly coming in for the attack and not actually seeing the movement on his side to try to fix it.
Melanie Curtin: Right.
Jason Lange: So there's like a, like if it feels unwinnable is just one thing, you know, I would say for guys to just, just feel into that, like what, what does that mean for you? Does it feel like this is Just an unwinnable situation. The other thing, which is a little bit more subtle is, is there connection, right? Like, are you still connected? Like, is there eye contact still? Is there an ability to sometimes take pauses or breathe with each other? Because a lot of intensity can come through, right? In the healthy versions of this, when there is that foundation, when there is that connection, and when there are some agreements, oftentimes I think for some of our guys that have had the most intense experiences, right, the connection is just gone.
Melanie Curtin: It's.
Jason Lange: It's just pure primal energy and lashing out. Like, you know, it's just outward expressed rage or shame against another person. I think this is one of the many, many reasons being in some kind of men's group is extraordinarily valuable to get a temperature check from people we trust that know us and sometimes maybe know our relationship even just a little bit, to kind of just get a little bit of feedback, like, hey, I had this experience. How does that land? Hey, I had this experience again. How does that land?
Melanie Curtin: Right?
Jason Lange: And usually pretty quickly, those around us can sometimes spot it faster than us because sometimes these types of things, you know, depending our conditioning, growing up or the length of the relationship, it's really, really easy for men to normalize. Right? I mean, that's like one of the masculine things is we can just kind of deal with discomfort and make it normal. It's like that's fucking the way it is the way it is, right? When it's actually not at all normal. Like our, our calibration is just totally off. And that's usually something I have found in men's group that others can see really fast. Just like, hey, man, that just doesn't. Doesn't sound win. That doesn't sound winnable. It's. It's been happening for like a long time. And I get concerned just hearing about you in that situation. Right. It just doesn't feel okay. And I feel protective of you. And that's been one of the clearest ways and one of the most powerful ways I've actually seen men like the light bulb go off of like, wow, okay, this isn't normal. It doesn't have to be this way. Like, there's other options available to me. It may be it's time for me to have some conversations or make some shifts in this relationship. So, yeah, you know, getting a temperature check from other men, you know, just feeling like, is there any room for. For growth or victory or wins, however you want to put it, but just that there's like a circuit actually happening. And it's not just, you know, one way. It's always broken and it's always your fault, which tends to be more the abusive thing. And, you know, how connected are we in the process? There is a way to fight really well in connection. And I think it's actually super important for a relationship to be able to grow into that place. But when that connection is not there, that's when I think it tends to get, you know, whether you're man or woman, masculine or feminine the most. That's where abuse happens.
Melanie Curtin: Anything to add to that, Violet? One of our teachers always says, you know, when you dehumanize the other person or when you take away their humanity, that's when it becomes abusive. And it's subtle. Obviously sometimes we don't realize that we've gotten to that point if we're the one who's upset or if we're the one receiving it because we just want to believe that the other person has the best intentions at heart by making sure that the other person sees you as a human with faults and flaws and needs and desires and vulnerabilities and all of those things.
Jason Lange: There's one last piece too. We were actually just many years ago now, but we discovered some of the cards people wrote us the night we got married for like different things. And ironically we had like five for fight people had written and we just had. Hadn't found them till now. So we opened them and we were reading them. And in one of them, I don't exactly remember the right word, but I think would be another distinguishing feature is can. Can each person own their part? It's never ever just one person. Right. It's pretty rare in relationship that some deeper dynamic is completely one sided. But you know, one of the distinguishing things is, I think is when we can start to kind of own claim maybe our part in that of like, hey, and I can see how maybe me doing this contributed to that. When that's not there and it's again just you, you, you, you, you, that's going to tend to be much more on the abusive side of the spectrum.
Melanie Curtin: And when you were talking about the cards, you mean that people said, learn how to fight well or make sure.
Jason Lange: Yeah. They were giving us tips for how to deal with our first fight. And you know, one of them was like, own your part. Just relentlessly own your part in it. Which I thought was like, yeah, own your part.
Melanie Curtin: Might be. I can see how I was being cold.
Jason Lange: Totally.
Melanie Curtin: I did take my love away because I think it's really easy to say, well, I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything wrong. When a lot of the relational dynamics are subtle. There I did get. I did, you know, withdraw. I did take my love and attention away. I did check out right. It's not always, because I think that happens a lot, especially with passive aggression, which I've noticed has been a pattern in a lot of the men I know where they're like, well, I didn't do anything. And it's like, well, exactly. You left like you were physically in the room, but you completely checked out. Your jaw got set. You, like, armored up. Like, I could feel like you, like, armored up. And my body had a response to that. And once a partner, whichever partner it is, says, like, I can see how I withdrew. And I was. I was distant. It's like, automatically the other person's like, who? My reality has been confirmed. I have a sense of not being gaslit. Like, I'm not being. There's not gaslighting going on, that there's an acknowledgement of what is actually so and what actually happened. And now we can move from there. This actually came up recently on one of our calls. There was a man who wasn't sure what to do about a text from a woman who said, you know, I feel like you withdrew a little bit or whatever. You got distant or. I don't remember what she said. It wasn't quite that clear. And he wasn't sure what to do about it. He was like, I don't know what to say. And I suggested just acknowledging, like, you're right. I did pull away and get distant. I'm not exactly sure why. I'll get back to you. And that's it. That's all you need to say, is, yes, this happened. Yes, this is happening. I do notice that I've become distant. I'm not exactly sure why. Let me figure it out and get back to you right there. You're going to calm her down because she's going to know that what she is sensing and how she is feeling is validated is actually being received when it's pushed. No, no, it's fine. I'm just busy with work. Because I think that's what he was going to say. He was like, yeah, I'm thinking of just telling her I'm busy. And I was like, ooh, like, that doesn't feel good. It doesn't. Doesn't feel good when I'm sensing the pull away and it's not being acknowledged. Like, I think there's something really important there on both sides, like you said, of owning your part. And what I've noticed is a lot of our clients have attracted borderline women where that is not online. She's never going to say, I'm sorry I snapped at you. That was wrong. I was frustrated, and I shouldn't have done that. She's never gonna say that. It's always gonna be, well, you weren't. You were. You were on your fucking phone again. You weren't paying attention to me. Of course I snapped or whatever. I don't think it's a very good example. But there's never that meeting halfway. Right. If you're never met halfway, that's a red flag. Yeah. And the last thing that I kind of want to touch on, I'd love to hear from each of you, is there's. And again, this is a little bit sensitive, but what is happening that this is a. Is the kind of partner a man might have attracted. What is happening on his side that this is a woman that he has attracted perhaps several times. Because I think some of. Some of our clients have noticed this has been a pattern. They've attracted a couple of women that are abusive.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. One word that just comes up that I don't want to forget is boundaries. So this is one last piece. I just definitely want to highlight that the difference between abuse and not abuse long term is, okay, maybe my partner does come at me with some harsh language or something, and it hurts. And, you know, probably not in the heat of the moment, but maybe afterwards I say, hey, like, it's not okay. It's. I'm not okay with you talking to me like that. You know, I'm fine with us getting into heat or whatever, but, you know, there's certain words or phrases or whatever, or you can't touch me. You know, like, that might be a simple one. And then we set that boundary, and is that respected? Right. If it's respected and there's growth and there's learning, and it doesn't mean you get it right every time. But there's like, an effort on both partners to respect those boundaries. That's a sign of more healthy, just storm and good fighting. When boundaries are set, like, that's not okay, you know, or. Or don't contact me, you know, like, we have some people who have exes that are still abusive. Right. Just railing and just. And they have to stay connected for various reasons, and they've set. Set boundaries around communication styles, and they're just totally ignored. Like, that's A sign of abuse to me is again a boundary just being totally ignored. And in terms of some of our guys and some of the men we've worked with and experiences we've had, and to some extent, every kind of man can attract this kind of relationship. I don't think there's just one specific man. I think men that have had a hard time setting boundaries in the past or never had clean experiences of that for sure. And like a lot of things just goes back to early childhood. You know, what types of experiences did they have in their, in their house, their, their family of origin? And whether it was just unstable parents, alcoholic, you know, parents or parents that fought a lot, you know, there's, there's certain energies that just get normalized in the nervous system. You know, households where there's a lot of shaming when they're young that some guys just don't know, right. That it's not normal. Right. Until we start having a conversation with them that's like, wow, that sounds like really challenging and doesn't feel particularly good. Does it feel good to you? And then there's kind of like the, oh no, it doesn't. So I think for a lot of guys, you know, it goes back pretty early just in terms of the amount of just pain from previous interactions that they've kind of just gotten used to, you know, I would say and, or for other guys like a, you know, to some extent for some of the men there's, there's a fear of, well, if not her, then who else, right? Who else could I attract? Like I, this has to, this has to work, right? And there's, there's a, a way that sometimes our own connection and capacity for self love, like if it's not strong enough yet, I think it's pretty easy to attract in a partner who will not love us, if that makes sense, right? If we're having a hard time connecting to that in ourself, it's very easy to attract a partner who's going to be abusive, I think. And that boundary ultimately of like, wow, I don't deserve to be treated like this. Like when that can fire up online, that's when often men will really make a big change, right? Or you know, just another last one that comes to mind is like, you deserve to feel good in relationship, right? I think that's one we, we've come across a couple times actually where they're, you know, very high powered men, very powerful jobs, doing amazing work, that's very high stress in its own right? And then Their relationship is a bit abusive in the sense that, yeah, these storms are intense and often directed at them and cause a lot of tension in their bodies on top of all the tension they're already getting. Which is a sign that, right. The relationship itself is actually making life more stressful. Whereas, you know, certainly in the way Violet and I like to think of relationships like a healthy, attached relationship, one of the whole purposes of it is to do the opposite of that, is to be a place to get resourced in connection in safety and grounding. Because it is one of the only places sometimes when all the stresses of the world are coming at us, that we can turn to that and just that realization that, like, wow, actually my relationship is actually having this impact on me. And what's possible is that it could actually be a place of safety and nourishment and rejuvenation. Doesn't mean there's not conflict or fights within that. But overall, like, you know, it actually makes me stronger and able to handle more out in the world versus some of these more abusive ones are just like beating us when we're already down.
Melanie Curtin: They're exhausting.
Jason Lange: Yeah, exhausting. That's a great. That's the word. A lot of our men are just exhausted and drained.
Melanie Curtin: There's like a meaning of energy and like a resignation kind of energy that it feels like I've witnessed that. Yeah, I really just feel it gets.
Jason Lange: Into the eggshell thing that you and Violet talked about of then. And then, in addition to everything that's happening in life, some of our guys in these more abusive situations are then having to manage, right. Their partner to a high degree, to try to not set off the grenade or set off the storm. Right. And that's fucking exhausting way to live. That just kind of wears them down even. Even more versus, you know, this. The healthier versions of what we're talking about here of like, the storm is it doesn't mean there's not conflict in the relationship. We're staying connected. And I think one of the other differentiators, differentiating factors is our partner doesn't always need to process it 100%. With us, they have their own tools, their own community and techniques for maybe they process some of it with us. And then they're like, and you know what? I need to go do my thing now, like, go into my room and kind of clear some energy or something. There's a taking responsibility of our emotional state that I think is one of the signs that it's probably going to be a healthier partnership. And whereas abusive is, there's rarely much responsibility taken for, you know, the abusing partner's emotional state.
Melanie Curtin: Anything to add to that? Violet? Okay, so we're going to start to wrap here. I think that this can bring up a lot for folks. So if something is brought up and you have a question or you want support, you can always get me@dearmen podcastmail.com and if you, yeah, if you're interested in joining our community or learning more about our work, you can go to Evolutionary Men Dearmen and take our training. And that's a good way to go a little bit deeper than the podcast and I think we will wrap there. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.
