140: The line between her being abusive and her feminine storm (ft. Jason Lange & Violet Lange) | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Something happens, we make up a story about why that happened, and we come out and project it on the other person. Well, you did this. You're doing this. Versus, well, I'm experiencing this. I'm experiencing this, I'm experiencing this. And then it turns out, right, something else totally was happening. Doesn't mean that my feelings aren't invalid.

Melanie Curtin: Right.

Jason Lange: I still had that experience in my body, but it wasn't necessarily the other person's fault.

Melanie Curtin: Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode. I am happy to have both Jason and Violet with me. Some of my favorite guests. Thank you for being here.

Jason Lange: We're excited to be back.

Melanie Curtin: Our pleasure. So this is an episode I've been wanting to do for a while, and I'd say it's a little bit of a sensitive topic, because what we're talking about is the difference between a woman expressing her feminine storm and her being abusive. And the reason. For me, the reason it's sensitive is that I feel like it's been rare that I have felt safe actually expressing my hurt or my anger or my upset with a man and actually feeling like it's been held. And at the same time, I think that there are a lot of men who've had the experience of being shamed or belittled or attacked or physically attacked. So emotionally attacked or physically attacked or having sex be withheld from them or some other vindictive form of behavior that could be labeled abuse and in some cases is definitively abuse. And there's a. There's a line there, right? There's a line between those two things that I think is complex, and that's what we're going to be talking about. So I would be curious to hear from you two, you know, your experience as a woman and as a man, what it's like to be in your storm and express that. Like, you know, Jason, you probably wouldn't classify it as storm, but what it's like for you to be in your. In your storm or your upset and what it's like to express that. Like, what. What is that experience like for you on a personal level before we go into the, you know, rest of it? Your storm or my storm?

Jason Lange: Your storm.

Melanie Curtin: Oh, I thought you meant Jason having his own storm. Do you mean. No. Experiencing yours? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Lange: Okay.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I would say that the other piece that we've experienced together, that sometimes she did it with me, sometimes she did it with other people. But another frame on the storm is what I would. What I labeled, like, dropping the grenade, just like. So it's not necessarily always just directed, like, at hurting me, but it's like, well, we're gonna blow this whole fucker up, right? Like, red alert, relationship at stake. Which. Which is a different version of that, you know, like, drop the grenade and then, boom, things just go crazy. Which is a version of that storm, you know, I mean, it's the kind of thing that it's not unique to us and it's been rare for us, but, you know, it was probably more early on of, like, threats to the relationship itself. Right? Those. That's. That's kind of what I would call red alert in Stan Tackin's work. Work is like, destruction at the root level, right? Like, the. The very framework of the relationship. Calling it into question can really put people on red alert and that, like.

Melanie Curtin: Well, maybe we shouldn't be together at all then.

Jason Lange: Yeah, maybe this won't work out, or. I don't see how this is ever going to, you know, work. And that was. There were. That was rare, but there, you know, there were probably a few times early on that that kind of stuff happened that I think is a version of the storm.

Melanie Curtin: Oh, for sure. I actually remember one of my women friends who's a therapist was describing a fight with her boyfriend, and she was like. She said something like, you know, and then, you know, he threatened the relationship. And at the time, I was like, what the hell does that mean? Like, I don't understand. Like, you're holding a gun to the relationship. I don't understand what that means. But it's kind of like therapy speak for, well, fine, we just shouldn't be together. Well, then I guess this marriage isn't gonna work. And there's. It's fancy words for that sense of, like. It's almost like a kid being like, well, fine, then I'll just leave. It's a lot of the. It feels like, you know, there was something that you just said, Jason, about the destructive quality of that. That's sort of like. It shakes the roots of what. Of what's happening between both people, right? It's like, okay, if you want to make someone feel insecure, this is a great way to do it and to destabilize the situation, which will almost always bring up the attachment stuff of both people, right? The like, well, fine, I'm just. I'll just. We'll just. This will just blow up now. Both people are going to be like you said on red alert. Which is different from. I just want to specify this. Threatening the relationship is different from. This is really hard for me. I have a really hard time right now, right? Like bringing the emotion and what's actually happening of like, I just wanted. I'm feeling desperate in this moment and feeling so desperate and angry. That's different from threatening the relationship. There's a qualitative difference there, which I think is part of what we're going to be getting at in this episode of. Where is that line? Where is the line between abuse and expression? There's something about that of like, I am expressing my experience, I am sharing my feelings. Even if there's a lot of emotion that goes along with it, like. Or passion that goes along with it. Rather than, you're such a fucking asshole. I can't believe you did this shit. Again, that is not sharing your experience.

Jason Lange: Right?

Melanie Curtin: Thing. Even if it has equal passion, it's not the same thing.

Jason Lange: Totally. Distinguishing the language there is so important and something we talk a lot about in the authentic relating work the three of us do. And they talk a lot about nonviolent communication. And that's just the difference between you and I statements, right? You're this, you're doing this you, you, you, you. Which tends to be a little bit more destructive and sometimes abusive and harmful versus more I. I'm experiencing this. I'm feeling this. Totally owning our experience, right? Not. Not making it necessarily the other person's fault, maybe sharing that how you've been impacted by the person when you did this. I felt this. Right? But the emphasis is on the I is. Is a one of the big key differences, I think, between the. That line of you right? When it becomes a string of use. That's kind of a red flag that we're probably not headed the right direction here in this argument right now. That may lead more towards this abusive stuff where we're kind of right on the edge of in this discussion. And the I statements keep it much cleaner in terms of our own experience because we don't always know, right? I mean, this is the classic fight. Something happens, we make up a story about why that happened. And we come out and project it on the other person. Well, you did this. You're doing this versus, well, I'm experiencing this. I'm experiencing this, I'm experiencing this. And then it turns out, right, something else totally was happening. Doesn't mean that my feelings aren't invalid. Right. I still had that experience in my body, but it wasn't necessarily the other person's fault. Right. Let's say. Which is the benefit of using that type of I language that I think is so important. And, you know, I can think of the one story we've talked about a few times in our group that was when I was. You were gone or I was gone, One of us was out of the house, I don't remember. And we were kind of apart. It was after we were together. I think maybe you were gone or something. I was here and you came back, and it was like red alert territory, you know, she was totally activated and came at me strong. And it was because a friend of hers had seen a dating profile of mine on Bumble, which was an app I had used before we even met, and that didn't know that it was the kind of. That it was a little different than the other apps where you have to actually go in there and deactivate yourself. So three fucking years later, they're still showing my profile. So one of her friends sees, says, hey, like, your guy's on here. So. Right. Obviously, she makes up a story like, oh, my God, he must be fucking dating around it. Like, is he having affairs on me? And came at me hard with that. So.

Melanie Curtin: And I did call you before I came home because I was supposed to go to an S Factor class, and I was so worked up. I was like, this is what happened. I'm calling you. I'm just letting you know, because I'm on my way home and I want to talk. So, I mean, maybe I'm just trying to preserve my ego, but, like, there's parts of me that. That, you know, want to regulate the storm. And then there's like, such a torrent of emotion sometimes and such a fear of abandonment and rejection, which is, I think, what dovetails with the borderline episode, because I don'. Consider myself borderline, but I definitely have tendencies because I was raised by someone who's narcissistic and someone who's borderline. So both parents have that going on. So it's just this primal flash that comes through me sometimes when I feel abandoned or rejected.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I mean, I think that there's things that happen in our external environment, like getting a text from a friend that says your husband is on a dating site. And then there's things that happen internally that are like a mood or. You know, different schools of philosophy would say that it all starts inside, but there's different kind of levels and triggers for the storm. And then I think for me personally, during the fight or the storm, and there's things that help to let the storm pass and diffuse, both for my part and my partner. And then there's things that aggravate the storm. So one of them that Jason named is fixing, like, when someone is, like, trying to fix the emotion or quiet down the storm when the storm's not ready to be quiet. Another one.

Jason Lange: I still do it. All the training, all the practice, I still do it.

Melanie Curtin: What that sounds like. What does that sound like? What are the actual words to me? It's like giving me a logical reason of, like, oh, well, you shouldn't feel that way, because I'm sure that person's intention was not this. And it's like, how do you know that person's intention? Like, I'm feeling this and this is.

Jason Lange: Or we could just do this and that. It wouldn't be a problem anymore.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, or just do that. You know, it's like fast solutions or, like, going to harmony too soon or taking the broader perspective. You know, the masculine is great at taking the broader perspective. Like, oh, you'll feel better in a few days or a few weeks, or, you know, your boss will change his mind. Or, you know, I'm sure this person didn't mean it that way. It's like taking the enlightened perspective, but then it feels negating of my experience. And so then I feel like I have to dial up the intensity to be heard, which is. It's all happening very quickly in my body, so I'm not trying to be manipulative. And then also sometimes feeling like I feel wrong, like, oh, I shouldn't feel this way. When I hear that there's this better perspective, I feel shamed. Or like there's a part of the way that sometimes the masculine rates relates to the feminine that feels like, oh, the feminine is less evolved. It's more, you know, immature. Like she's going to have her tantrums, whatever. Like, it's kind of condescending. And Jason doesn't actually do that. But there's. I'm very sensitive to that from being shamed and ridiculed at other parts. At other parts of my life. So it's a lot for me, even just to feel my feelings and. And then share my feelings. And so I think I'm sometimes, you know, sensitive about how those are received. But, you know, the other day we had, like, there was something bubbling up for me, and we practiced something different. You know, I was like, can I show you how I'm feeling without getting into story? And I literally, like, kind of cried and pouted and sat on the ground and stomped my feet. And then once I moved the energy, then I was like, here's what I'm upset about and why. But it was from an I perspective. And then I literally felt better, like, three minutes later, like, nothing had changed in the situation, but it was like, okay, let's go to brunch. It was just so much easier for both of us, I think.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And you. And you felt met, I would imagine, by Jason. You felt like he was present, he was there. He was witnessing your expression. He wasn't checked out on his phone. He wasn't judging your expression. He wasn't somehow belittling it. He was present and he was there with it. And I think that's a good example of, again, first stage, second stage, third stage, masculine feminine dynamics. If you are unfamiliar with that, there's another podcast episode about it. But what you just talked about, Violet, I think, is a good example of third stage relating, which is it is more embodied, and it is. It's going to sound and look different than we have been taught. Because, you know, first stage relating is sort of a bit what we're talking about of the quote unquote, traditional fight, which is she brings up something she's upset about, he gives the logical reason, she gets even more upset, it's a mess. Second stage is like, let's talk about this. Here's where I'm coming from. It's a lot of. It's a lot of talking. It's a lot of talking. It's a lot of, you know, like, I. Statements. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Like we just said, they can be very useful, but it's more therapy style of talk. You know, talk therapy, talking everything out. And third stage is kind of an embodied version where you move more of the energy through your body so that you need fewer words. Words are so important, but they're not. It's not this endless therapy session, which I think a lot of couples can get stuck in second stage. And it feels like the future is third stage. And the reason I'm naming that is because I think for some folks, they might be like, well, that's weird. She, you know, pouted and, like, stomped her feet and, like, isn't that childish? And it's like, you could see it that way, or you could understand that this is infinitely more efficient than trying to talk out this feeling to death, which doesn't actually move the fucking energy. Moving energy must happen through the body. And I think that's what a lot of the field of psychology is grasping now is that somatic therapy and moving energy through the body is way more efficient than talking about it. Because a lot of the time, talking about it doesn't actually do much. It's like an illusion. Like, well, you know, I was just talking to someone the other day who said, this is one of our clients, Jason, and he was talking about couples therapy, and he was like, I feel like we just go to couples therapy and complain about each other. We're not actually moving forward. We don't actually progress. There's no movement forward. And I think that's a good example of the stuckness that can happen in second stage versus third stage, which is like, it's gonna look different. It looks different. It sounds different. It feels different. It's like. You know, another thing that I've heard of third stage couples doing is pushing, like, physically pushing each other, which is not. We're not talking about shoving someone against the wall. We're not talking about physical abuse. We're talking about consensual shoving of like, I'm frustrated. I need to move this. Will you help me move this? I just want to push against you. And I've heard of couples saying after a couple minutes of pushing, they're like, okay, here's what upset me. But the energy has moved. So it's not all pent up in the body, ready to explode. So we've talked a little bit about what a healthy version might look like. Now I want to talk about where is that line? What is abusive when it comes to this topic? Like what is the difference? And maybe Jason, you can speak to, because you've talked to hundreds of men at this point on, you know, our welcome calls into our program and you've heard a lot of stories. What are some examples of abuse, whether that's physical or otherwise?

Jason Lange: Yeah, the first thing I'll launch with dovetails off a little bit of what we were just talking about in terms of the stages and how important they are in that that third stage is only possible when there's a healthy second stage. So even in the example she just gave, there was permission. Hey, can I show you? Right? And then I opted into that like that, that, that was the healthy second stage foundation of that. So there's, there's an agreement, right? There's, there's some agreements and road rules for how we're going to interact that then allow these deeper expressions to come through. And I think just one fundamental thing in the difference between the healthy versions of what we're talking about with Weathering a Storm versus abuse is there's usually not agreement or consent with abuse, right? It's just, boom, I'm on text message and I'm launching into you. We're on the phone, I'm launching into you. You're coming over, I'm launching in you. Right? It's just like a full on assault without checking in with where the person's at and whether or not they're even open or capable of, of receiving that feedback right there. Even if it's good hearted, right. Even like to be very generous in a sense, if it's really important discussion for the relationship and it's above the line and it's good language and all that kind of stuff. If I'm not open and capable of receiving it and you just launch into it, that's more abusive versus kind of getting permission, having a little bit of agreement of what we can talk about. But you know what? I've certainly, what we've experienced in our clients and I've talked to men about is, I mean, there's just a whole range here from like literal hitting, like, you know, women hitting men.

Melanie Curtin: Or throwing.

Jason Lange: Things at them, throwing things at them, breaking things, taking things, verbal abuse, just, you know, that's probably one of the most common ones I would say is just railing into men, often using very Derogatory and like shame based language, right. You're no good, you did this to me. Just boom, boom, attacking, attacking, attacking. And again, you know, it's all one sided, right? It's just an outpouring of force. There's no attunement, there's no seeing how it lands or what the impact is on the other person. And you know, at a deeper level, there's rarely any actual connection, right. It's more, that kind of abuse is more first stage. And I'm feeling this and I want you to feel this, right? You have to feel what I'm feeling right now. That's kind of more first stage, how we kind of move that through. I have to get my feelings out onto you, right? Just boom. Whether I'm upset at you, angry at you or whatever. And there's not necessarily permission there in that situation. So it's pretty common. Or threats to the relationship. Like I said, well, maybe this isn't going to work out or maybe I should go stay with my friend or just that stuff that just cuts away at the foundation of the relationship and whether or not it's even possible are some of the many, many different ways it's shown up for our guys.

Jason Lange: What seems to be a pattern in some of our guys is it, it's considered like there's actually a consistency. So it's, it's not, it's not like a one off thing, right. Usually it happens multiple times. The same kind of dynamic plays out and the same words are often used or the same threats are often used. So there's like a repeating nature to it that I think is one of the first telltales. The other thing that I would say I've noticed for some men is it's just a feeling of it being totally unwinnable. Like that it's just there's no move they can make in the more destructive situations, right? It's like, I don't feel you with me or you know, something like that. And then they make the effort to do it and she's not actually open, so there's no actual movement to it. So she's just constantly coming in for the attack and not actually seeing the movement on his side to try to fix it.

Melanie Curtin: Right.

Jason Lange: So there's like a, like if it feels unwinnable is just one thing, you know, I would say for guys to just, just feel into that, like what, what does that mean for you? Does it feel like this is Just an unwinnable situation. The other thing, which is a little bit more subtle is, is there connection, right? Like, are you still connected? Like, is there eye contact still? Is there an ability to sometimes take pauses or breathe with each other? Because a lot of intensity can come through, right? In the healthy versions of this, when there is that foundation, when there is that connection, and when there are some agreements, oftentimes I think for some of our guys that have had the most intense experiences, right, the connection is just gone.

Melanie Curtin: It's.

Jason Lange: It's just pure primal energy and lashing out. Like, you know, it's just outward expressed rage or shame against another person. I think this is one of the many, many reasons being in some kind of men's group is extraordinarily valuable to get a temperature check from people we trust that know us and sometimes maybe know our relationship even just a little bit, to kind of just get a little bit of feedback, like, hey, I had this experience. How does that land? Hey, I had this experience again. How does that land?

Melanie Curtin: Right?

Jason Lange: And usually pretty quickly, those around us can sometimes spot it faster than us because sometimes these types of things, you know, depending our conditioning, growing up or the length of the relationship, it's really, really easy for men to normalize. Right? I mean, that's like one of the masculine things is we can just kind of deal with discomfort and make it normal. It's like that's fucking the way it is the way it is, right? When it's actually not at all normal. Like our, our calibration is just totally off. And that's usually something I have found in men's group that others can see really fast. Just like, hey, man, that just doesn't. Doesn't sound win. That doesn't sound winnable. It's. It's been happening for like a long time. And I get concerned just hearing about you in that situation. Right. It just doesn't feel okay. And I feel protective of you. And that's been one of the clearest ways and one of the most powerful ways I've actually seen men like the light bulb go off of like, wow, okay, this isn't normal. It doesn't have to be this way. Like, there's other options available to me. It may be it's time for me to have some conversations or make some shifts in this relationship. So, yeah, you know, getting a temperature check from other men, you know, just feeling like, is there any room for. For growth or victory or wins, however you want to put it, but just that there's like a circuit actually happening. And it's not just, you know, one way. It's always broken and it's always your fault, which tends to be more the abusive thing. And, you know, how connected are we in the process? There is a way to fight really well in connection. And I think it's actually super important for a relationship to be able to grow into that place. But when that connection is not there, that's when I think it tends to get, you know, whether you're man or woman, masculine or feminine the most. That's where abuse happens.

Melanie Curtin: Anything to add to that, Violet? One of our teachers always says, you know, when you dehumanize the other person or when you take away their humanity, that's when it becomes abusive. And it's subtle. Obviously sometimes we don't realize that we've gotten to that point if we're the one who's upset or if we're the one receiving it because we just want to believe that the other person has the best intentions at heart by making sure that the other person sees you as a human with faults and flaws and needs and desires and vulnerabilities and all of those things.

Jason Lange: There's one last piece too. We were actually just many years ago now, but we discovered some of the cards people wrote us the night we got married for like different things. And ironically we had like five for fight people had written and we just had. Hadn't found them till now. So we opened them and we were reading them. And in one of them, I don't exactly remember the right word, but I think would be another distinguishing feature is can. Can each person own their part? It's never ever just one person. Right. It's pretty rare in relationship that some deeper dynamic is completely one sided. But you know, one of the distinguishing things is, I think is when we can start to kind of own claim maybe our part in that of like, hey, and I can see how maybe me doing this contributed to that. When that's not there and it's again just you, you, you, you, you, that's going to tend to be much more on the abusive side of the spectrum.

Melanie Curtin: And when you were talking about the cards, you mean that people said, learn how to fight well or make sure.

Jason Lange: Yeah. They were giving us tips for how to deal with our first fight. And you know, one of them was like, own your part. Just relentlessly own your part in it. Which I thought was like, yeah, own your part.

Melanie Curtin: Might be. I can see how I was being cold.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Melanie Curtin: They're exhausting.

Jason Lange: Yeah, exhausting. That's a great. That's the word. A lot of our men are just exhausted and drained.

Melanie Curtin: There's like a meaning of energy and like a resignation kind of energy that it feels like I've witnessed that. Yeah, I really just feel it gets.

Melanie Curtin: Anything to add to that? Violet? Okay, so we're going to start to wrap here. I think that this can bring up a lot for folks. So if something is brought up and you have a question or you want support, you can always get me@dearmen podcastmail.com and if you, yeah, if you're interested in joining our community or learning more about our work, you can go to Evolutionary Men Dearmen and take our training. And that's a good way to go a little bit deeper than the podcast and I think we will wrap there. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da.