135: I AM… CONNECTION! | Doom to Bloom Podcast

Host: Hello and welcome to another episode of Doom to Bloom podcast. Today we have Jason as a special guest and without any spoilers, we're going to talk about men's mental health and kind of all things relating to that. So obviously a super important conversation and topic. And so right off the hop. Thank you so much for being a guest, Jason, and for just having these conversations because as you know, men's mental health needs to be talked about a lot more. So hopefully we can normalize it through our conversation today.

Jason Lange: Yeah, happy to jump in and talk about it all. It's really important.

Host: And just before we do jump in, if somebody were to ask, what would we or what could benefit us from knowing about Jason? Who is Jason? Who are you? Tell us before we jump in.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm a, first off, a husband and a father, some family man, and I'm a men's guide. So I support men in life, essentially. Some people might call me a coach, some people might call me a guide. I kind of prefer that. But in general, I support men at this point in my life primarily through one on one work and group work in, in the form of men's groups. And I've been intimately involved in men's work in men's groups for about 20 years, primarily starting with my own journey. So it's stuff I got into because I needed the support and was at a place in my life where things weren't going, you know, exactly how I wanted. And so I got super lucky in my mid-20s and kind of stumbled upon this work and communities and it changed the course of my life. And so much so that, you know, at one point I just kept talking about it and then people kept. Other guys started to ask me, like, well, can I, can I join that? Can I come to that? I love that. Sounds great. Can I try it? And about six or seven years ago, I pivoted to okay, instead of just doing this for myself, I want to support other men in that. And it's been wild. You know, when I first got into men's groups 20 years ago, you could say that word. And maybe the only thing that most people would think of is like a church based men's group where they would often do like Bible study, but outside of that, it was like nobody knew. Nobody knew. Like it was just a underground kind of thing. And now it's kind of everywhere. There's like a, a title wave of men's work and men's community coming. I think because of some of the issues we'll be talking about today. That frankly, men just really need it.

Host: Well, I think it's incredible that you pivoted from your own personal experiences into turning it into a community for others and support for others. Because I think when, for me personally, when it comes down to mental health, I think community and connection, whatever gender, whatever sexuality, whatever background is super important.

Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly. The connection, I would say is often the antidote to so many ailments these days.

Host: Can we take a 360 and if you're comfortable, Jason, to talk about your experiences before we jump into men's mental health overall?

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. My journey really started, you know, I'm a white guy, grew up in the Midwest of the US in a kind of lower middle class family and had the benefit of kind of most of my basic security needs met. You know, we, we weren't struggling for food. There was stable household in a sense. But as I got older, particularly as I got into my teenage years and suddenly went through puberty and had hormones and was really interested in the opposite sex in my case, I discovered that it was really uncomfortable for me. So I didn't know how to talk to girls. I would get really anxious in my body, like kind of sweaty, tight, get it stuck up in my head sometimes would freeze and just did not know how to bridge the chasm, so to speak, of like just literally how to talk to someone I was attracted to. And point of that is it just didn't work for me in high school, in college, I, I never dated a girl, I never kissed a girl. It was super painful for me. And that pain actually kind of kick started my journey of like, what is going on here? It doesn't seem like it's this hard for other people, you know, friends I have and this dawning realization of like, well, I just don't feel good in my body. You know, I wake up, I'm a little depressed, I don't feel good in my body. And that really started a journey of, right. Inner work, inner growth, of look, looking at like, why, why is this so right? What's going on here? And you know, as I aged, in retrospect, it became clear a lot had to do with my family system growing up where yes, there was safety, there was security, but there was basically no touch and no emotional connection in my family. We're just kind of in the same house, left to our own devices and, and that went back pretty early in my childhood. And you know, kind of like a lot of guys started to see the roots of my origin story of why it was so Uncomfortable for me to be in my body, and particularly why it was so uncomfortable for me to be physically close to anyone. It wasn't even just women, but I discovered it was guys. You know, I. I did start to meet some male friends in high school and, you know, the kind of horseplay energy that a lot of guys have of just kind of wrestling, like, it was so not my thing. I just did not go there naturally. And if I did, it felt really uncomfortable. And that journey, you know, first for me kind of started philosophically. So I just started reading a lot of books and trying to learn about, you know, how humans work. But in that kind of path, yeah, I got. I got exposed to two things that really radically changed my life. First of which, you know, we'll talk about is men's groups, which then kind of got me into men's work and then simultaneously somatic therapy. So therapy that actually helped me get more in touch with my body and really slow down and learn what the sensations were and kind of what the root of them were. And that those two things really started to work together to radically change my life, where suddenly I was feeling more empowered with myself. I was having some of the connections I wanted in intimacy. I had a sense of direction in my life. And more than anything else, the thing that changed is the kind of deep inner loneliness started to subside as I built up. Now at this point, what is like just an abundance of incredible high quality men in my life that have supported me through some of the most challenging transitions I've made into becoming a father and, you know, a pandemic and just growing older and you name it, marriage challenges, it's all been there. And so for me now, what I see as I work with men is how isolated, right, so many guys are and how even me in that trajectory, you know, I got lucky, started to meet some men in, in my late high school, and then kind of up until I got in my first men's group. But even then, it was so uncomfortable for me to share my inner world with them. Meaning, you know, I just moved back to Colorado after about 15 years in California. And during my time here, when I had moved here in my twenties, I was still a virgin. Like, I. I hadn't had sexual interactions yet. It was a source of huge shame for me. I was still quite stuck in that. And my closest friends at the time didn't know. I just, I held it way too close to the chest. I was so embarrassed about it. And, you know, now that I'm on the other Side and back and connecting with them. It's like, wow, even though I kind of had that, I still fell prey to the stigma of what we're allowed to talk about as men, how we have to be tough, how we're not supposed to be vulnerable. And I see that showing up everywhere for guys these days. And so men's groups for me and why I'm so passionate about them kind of burst the bubble on that and create a space where men learn that weight. Actually, oftentimes many men I know walk around feeling very lonely and then holding all this stuff inside of them because they're afraid if anybody ever knew that they wouldn't want to hang out or connect with me. Like, in a sense, right. It's not necessarily conscious, but it drives the show. And the paradox I found is when you're in a safe group and community and you can actually bring that stuff forward, it's often what makes us feel the most connected when we're seen and received for this kind of inner stuff. Sometimes we're scared or feels vulnerable about.

Host: I think you mentioned, kind of right off the hop, Jason, that if you were to talk about men's groups, like five, 10, 15 years ago, it was kind of non existent. When you mentioned that you found them for your journey. What was it like compared to now?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I just got lucky. I mean, to be totally frank, the place I was living in Colorado at the time is kind of is kind of like Boulder, Colorado. You know, there's a lot of transformational energy, a lot of people into growth. And so I just got lucky that this was one of the few places in the world where that was, like, happening 20 years ago. And it's pretty wild when I think about, like, what could have happened if just my life had been a little different and I hadn't been exposed to those, to that group in particular. Because, you know, now, you know, even back then, you know, we had the Internet, but it wasn't quite taking off at the same level yet. And there wasn't this yet, you know, so it was like, yeah, you could connect with people back then, but it was like message boards, you know, just typing. Now it's such a different ball game because even if you don't have a men's group meeting with you locally, you have access through these technologies to it virtually. And I think that's part of why it's really lifting off, because many men I work with actually, you know, they live in parts of the country where there is no local presence yet for some kind of group, but now they have the opportunity or, you know, frankly, I work with guys sometimes across the world who are like, you know, know many, many time zones away, and they're able to drop into this kind of stuff. So it was pretty mind blowing for me in retrospect that I. I fell into one of these really unique, rare groups at the time that totally altered the course of my life.

Host: And I guess the other question too, when you mentioned somatic therapy, it's incredible, and I've also done it as well. But how did you fall into the hands of doing that, especially as a. Yeah, totally.

Jason Lange: So this is what's kind of interesting about the work I do, I think, is initially I was working with a male coach. So he was. He was kind of a mentor, a man who had done some men's work, was facilitating our men's group, and he was a coach. So he helped guys kind of, you know, get their life on track, start moving towards goals, things like that. And we started doing some work together. And, you know, maybe like three or four months in, I can't remember the exact context. I think I had, like, another massive meltdown with someone I was trying to date, and it just didn't work. And my body, like, froze up and we were doing some deep work together and he. He really led me deep into something where I started to touch some energy that I, like, really hadn't been in contact with of just the real grief in my nervous system. And, you know, some tears came. And at the end of it, he was like, hey, I just want you to know, like, I really care about you and I want to support you, and this isn't really my skill set. This isn't like, really what I do. I'm more of a coach. But ding, ding, ding. Turns out I'm married to a somatic therapist, and you might want to consider setting up a session with her. This is a little bit more of what she does. And I just totally trusted him on it. And so I started working with her and she kind of took me deeper into these subtle sensations in my body, which were often connected to some very unsubtle sensations, in a sense that. That were really rooted deep down. And, yeah, one of the unfortunate truths, right, is there's still a pretty strong stigma, particularly I would say, for men against therapy, that, oh, you only go to therapy if you're weak or there's something wrong with you. And certainly I can tell you if, if nothing else, in some of the work I do, trying to reframe that Is. No, actually, healthy people go to therapy. People who aren't healthy don't go to therapy. Just like we go to the gym to work out our body, we have to go to therapy to kind of work out our heart and soul, and that's it. Right. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It's just how we become this, the healthiest version of ourselves. And I have seen time and time again, somewhat mirroring my own journey. A lot of the work I do with men, it actually works great in parallel with somatic therapy. It's like cross training, right? It's like I'm working one muscle here and another muscle here, and so many men will come to me, you know, around dating, coaching, or getting into a men's group. And then once they're in the space and start to kind of feel the vibe, so to speak, I'll suggest, you know, and you might also want to try this, and then they'll be more open to it. But there's something about, like, just the frame, maybe. I don't even know if it's just the word, like, coaching. Like, guys are a little more like, coaching sports, you know, that they'll kind of come in on that first. And then once they meet other men who they have the experience of like, oh, wait, that guy's not weak, and he goes to therapy. So wait, maybe, you know, maybe my story about all this is wrong. They're much more likely to give it a try.

Host: I was just gonna bring up the overarching topic of stigma because it's hard to not talk about men's mental health and not say anything about stigma. I feel like, unfortunately, what. What other stigmas have a lot of the men said, aside from the therapy being for the weak or the broken.

Jason Lange: Yeah. So the. The way I kind of talk about this, and I didn't come up with this term, a leader in the. The Bay Area came up with it maybe 15 years ago. But there's this idea of something called the man box. Really? The man box is this kind of societal construction that is a list of behaviors that you have to kind of check the boxes on in order to be considered a man. And if any of your behaviors fall outside of that box, you know, you're considered not a man. Right. This is. This is kind of the thing. And there's some actual research that is really fascinating that kind of proves this in a sense where I can't remember the exact researcher, but what they did is they pulled both men and women, so it was Both they, they. They did some polling of both, and they just asked two simple questions. What marks the transition of a girl into becoming a woman? And what marks the transition of a boy becoming a man? And, you know, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but culturally, both sides tended to answer. Well, for a girl, it's when her body changes, her menstruation starts. So it's. It basically was based on biology, whereas for a man, it was not. It was a set of, well, he starts showing up, earning a certain amount of money, does. Da, da, da, da, da. It was behaviors, meaning a boy could go fully through puberty, be in a fully mature body, but not still not be considered a man because of how he's showing up in the world. And I think that kind of really ties into this idea of the man box, in a sense, for a. For. For men in particular, there's these expectations, you know, we're supposed to meet, which in our culture, most cultures around the world, but particularly, you know, I'm going to speak to the. The States here in the West. Never be vulnerable. Never share emotions. Therapy is for the weak. Do it alone. Be. Be tough, work harder. One that a lot of guys don't realize, but man, but wow, does it really impact guys is like if sex is available to you, you should take it, and if you don't, there's something wrong with you. Because that's what men do, right? There's this kind of pressure in that sense. Other men are competition, other men aren't safe. You know, whoever's making more money is worth more. Like, you can just start to feel the constellation that, you know, we. We call it the patriarchy. We call it whatever you want is actually pushing down on men on. And, you know, again, here in America, we have this, you know, it's like epitomized in the kind of rugged, individualist cowboy. Just pick myself up by the bootstraps. I don't need anyone. The Marlboro man kind of really tough, you know, and we're fed, you know, this garbage, in a sense, by culture and then by other men in particular. So a lot of guys come face to face with this kind of man box in, you know, middle school, high school, that locker room culture where if you show any kind of weakness or vulnerability, you are attacked. And we can think of, you know, the different slurs guys often use. And so they learn. So as men, we learn to not reveal almost anything, to always look tough. And that expands to an even, you know, kind of bigger level in, In Just what I've seen frankly for a lot of guys is from a very young age, we are not only taught, but we're actually often celebrated for being disconnected from our bodies. So from a very young age, you know, you can, you know, boys tend to have a lot of physical energy and even just the way kind of our mainstream school system is set up, Sit in a seat and don't move. Ignore your body. What your body is wanting to do is wrong. Override that with your head or the phrase, you know. And it's not just guys that get this unfortunately, but I've definitely seen a lot of young boys stop crying. Right. Again, parent itself, telling a kid, whatever's happening inside your body, ignore it, it's wrong. And then we, we move up from there to, you know, sports culture, work culture, military culture in some extent, which is often just push harder, ignore your body, push harder, ignore your body. And then we get rewarded from it. Right. High achieving athletes, like you can see it, working 60 hours a week, it's like celebrated for some reason. And it's almost always at the cost of our bodies as men. You know, men tend to hold most of the most physically dangerous jobs in the world. Like that you can actually die from or get poisoned from like that different kind of stuff. And then the other key point here, and I'll, then I'll wrap. This is what's key about this, this other part of the man box. If, you know, we're taught to not be in our bodies is in the work I do and you know, sounds like you share some of this. Our emotions start sensations in our bodies. So if we're not connected to our bodies, it's pretty hard to connect to our emotions. So men are raised not knowing what they're feeling inside or what to do with it. And so many, many men I work with, and I've struggled with this with porn addiction previously in my life, have to then turn to things, alcohol, weed, sex, masturbation, porn, food, to regulate ourselves because that's the only tool we have to handle the distress happening inside ourselves because no one ever taught us and what to do with these emotions. So many men I, I work with come in with this combination of some kind of isolation and then this deep sense of there's a lot happening in my body and I don't even know how to talk about it, share it, let alone feel safe to bring it forward. And it creates a pretty gnarly combination for a lot of men that really has them hurting.

Host: I kind of, I, I question this A lot. And I don't know if you'll have an answer for this, Jason, but just in the. That theory that you just brought up, I've never heard of it, but it unfortunately makes a lot of sense in society right now, and maybe one day it won't. But right now it's, I think, very prevalent. But I. I feel like these stigmas with men and the. The. Don't cry, don't show emotion, just be tough, make all the money, work the hard jobs, that kind of stuff has been in society for hundreds, if not thousands of years. How do we even start to break that down?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think it's happening. I mean, that's the good news. Where I see it happening the most is in these kind of intentional spaces of men's work and men's groups. And, you know, I'll just relate it to personal experiences I've had that I've then seen other men have, which is for me, you know, one of the great things about the first groups I was exposed to was I was also exposed to kind of older men who were a little mature, a little wiser in their journey. And, you know, I tell this story often. He ended up being one of my mentors. But one of the first times I was, like, sitting in circle with this older man, you know, I'm just sitting there. I'm like, he's leading the circle. He's facilitating the men in. In my body, I'm having this experience of, um, wow, that's what I want to be when I grow up. You know, I'm in my 20s at the time, but it's like this kind of, like, sense of that's how I would like to show up in the world as I mature as a man. The way he breathes, his presence, his kind of calmness, his directness. He. He wasn't a pushover, but he wasn't an. Like. He was, you know, just like a solid, caring presence. And seeing. And experiencing a man like him and then seeing other men who would come forward, which often times it might be, you know, grief or anger or fear, and actually witnessing them experience their emotions without collapsing into them and like, ah. And without just pretending they're not there, or I'm tougher than them, but, like, just really being with them, sometimes with tears coming down their face, but simultaneously feeling like, wow, this guy is solid. He's strong. Or if anger was coming through, like, wow, that's powerful. And there's not a bone in my body that feels unsafe with this man right now. These Were like revelations from my nervous system of, like, nobody told me this was possible. Like, I can be emotionally connected as a man and still be super solid and sturdy in my presence. And I think that's part of the power of this type of work in groups is men get to experience. And it. It actually can, like, be confronting for these narratives we have of, oh, wait, but I was told all, you know, if a man cries, he's weak. Yet I'm here with this man, and frankly, I actually feel he's stronger, having just opened up in that vulnerability with me, because I don't think I could do that, right. And it starts to kind of rewire the system a bit. And I think that's one of the things men are aching for the most right now is just a vision of what's possible for men these days. Because a lot of culture these days, right, really is focused on particularly for men. And it's not wrong. It's for pretty good reasons based on, you know, human history, kind of what's been wrong with men, what we're not supposed to be, what can go wrong, particularly when the masculine is disconnected from its heart, how it can take advantage of people, women, the environment, et cetera. But what there hasn't been is a whole lot of visioning of, well, then what's the healthy version we should all, you know, aspire to, grow up to? And experiencing that in. In this type of work, I see, is very foundational for men because it starts to kind of break up all that confining energy of, wait, there's more possible here. And this is where, you know, when I do deep work with men, particularly in groups, part of what I tell them is every time you as a man, step forward vulnerably into deeper feeling, experiencing honesty, truth sharing, whatever that might be, you're actually making it easier for other men to do the same. It's particularly in a group. I see it time and time again, particularly when I do, like, live retreats. One man goes and brings something raw, honest, fierce forward, whatever that might be. And then it's like, gives permission to the other men. And once that dam breaks, and it's like, wow, we can really go there here it's just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Each man keeps dropping in, and it creates, as I kind of call this, like, vortex of just opening and honesty. And so we get to do it in the firsthand, you know, firsthand experience embodying this. And then it's just conversations like these, which I think start to kind of push back on some of these narratives and you know, we're starting to see a lot more emphasis and I, I would say attention on men's inner world and their mental health and kind of everything that led us here. And that it just takes, you know, the willingness, you know, I, I sometimes joke to how I frame it sometimes to men, cuz it kind of, you know, it's like a little aikido move is, you know, tell me who's more afraid, the man who's unwilling to feel his emotions or the man who goes right into them. And when you take that context, it's like, oh yeah, wait, the guy who's, you know, always gotta be tough. He's often in total fear. Many men I work with, they're in fear of their emotions because they're like, they have an intuitive sense there's some anger or some grief or there's something in there. And their fear is if I go there, I might never come back. You know, I won't be able to show up in my life. And once we penetrate that fear and men come out the other side, I still have this experience annually myself. It's like, oh wow, that was way easier than all that energy I spent on trying to avoid my experience or what I was feeling, etc. So it's a, it's a long battle at this point, but it really does feel like something is shifting, at least in the spaces, you know, I'm working in, which hopefully are, you know, pointers as to where our culture is going to.

Host: I think the groups and the work that you're doing is just so crucial. But do you have any insight into maybe I shouldn't assume, but I'm assuming that when you're working with adult males, they're coming to you at a place where they're so wrapped up in childhood traumas or whatever it was that happened and they just don't realize it. Do you think that there might potentially, or are you hopeful that you can start this work earlier on than once? They're already, I guess, traumatized as an adult trying to work through everything. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Lange: I mean, I think the way, I think this is part of a multi, tiered, you know, vision in a sense. The way I see it showing up the most now is, and it really does make a difference is one particularly a man who's a father, steps in to his work, it starts to change the relationship and what his kids see as possible. So just by a dad stepping in and saying, hey, I'm getting some therapy, I'm Getting some support. Here's the way I'm changing. You know, not that you throw all that on your kid, depending on their age, but by a man stepping into his growth, he's actually kind of setting an example in his family of, oh, this is what you do as a human being. We grow. Some things don't work so well, so we need some help, you know, ironing them out, so to speak. And I see that filter down pretty quickly. It's pretty wild. You know, guys will come to me for a lot of things, you know, be a career or dating or their marriage or whatnot, and they'll often be surprised a couple months later. And like, I never would have guessed, but my relationship with my kids have gotten way better because of the inner work they're doing. Right. So there's that of just us doing our work is like step one, because that starts to set the stage for different types of conversations, interactions, relationships with. With our own children. So we're not, hopefully, you know, traumatizing them in the way we were sometimes traumatized as kids. The other thing that's definitely coming is, I think particularly for boys, there's a huge gap in rites of passage. So, you know, most indigenous cultures around the world, it was very big part of it, that there was an actual process, a rite of passage that was like a guided experience that helped a boy mark the transition into manhood, right. Where he'd actually be taught the ways of his culture and becoming a man and go through challenging things and be guided by older men in particular. And that's mostly just disappeared, right? Particularly here in the West. And it's where a lot of young boys and teenagers get so lost, because when they don't have that, they kind of. Kind of try to find it in their peer group. And you can often get a sense of just, like, where things go wrong there. But so kind of writes a passage work for young boys is really starting to come back online as well. There's many organizations starting that up. Sometimes you do it with your father, sometimes you do it with strangers. But the idea is, you know, they've done some research here, too, that one of the unique things about boys and kind of these masculine role models, mentors, in a sense, is the dosage is really interesting. Meaning what I mean by that is like, one single interaction with an older man who drops in deeply with it with a boy, a young teenager, and really connects with them and makes it clear, hey, I care about you. I care about your life and its direction, and I want to guide You a little bit can completely alter the course of a boy's life. So, yeah, it's great if you have a very present father. But, you know, this is where sometimes in our culture right now, the best place, if you're lucky you can get it, is like a sports coach or maybe someone at your church community or an uncle. Like, it really matters for a boy to have the experience of an older, mature man kind of caring and guiding his life a little bit. And so these rites of passage can be so powerful for young boys. And so seeing this stuff reemerge makes a big difference because there's this feeling of I'm being held. And you know, I think particularly for boys and men there, there's a unique texture of love that I've found a lot of men are craving, which actually is, hey, I see you, I see what you're up to. And actually, I believe you can do better, right? Like, I believe you got more than this to give. You know, whether that's your grades or how you're showing up in relationship or the path of your life. You know, it's kind of like the. It's kind of like a meta version of the spinach in the teeth. Like, I care enough about you to point out something for you right now and not just let you slide through life. Like a lot of men actually ache for that from someone trusting. And when an older mentor comes along, it's. It's really quite potent. So these young rites of passage that are emerging are incredibly encouraging to me to. To kind of set this up. And then finally, I guess what I'll say is the. The educational piece is really changing, you know, as conversations like this and over awareness of childhood development and how emotions are handled. You know, when I compare to, you know, what I did to prep for my child, compared to, like, what my parents had access to, it's like night and day. You know, my parents were kind of the tail end of the Dr. Spock generation of just, oh, you just. Just leave your baby in the crib and let them cry it out, which is like insane. Now in any cultural context, you know, a, that's just not how it was done for all of human history until then. And B, you know, there's lots of research. It's like, yeah, no, you cannot spoil a baby with attention touch, like all that stuff that signals their nervous system to be safe. And so, you know, there's a. There's a changing just educational paradigm of, I think what it means to raise a kid that, you know, things aren't always going to go perfect. But you know, most kids really just need deep presence from a caring parent, some boundaries and an opportunity to play. And if they have that, they do pretty well. You know, they do pretty well. And so as we continue to get more educated, you know, as parents and as people who are going to becoming parents, you know, my somewhat overly optimistic sometimes view is just, yeah, it's getting a little better generation to generation. And I do see that as I work with men and hear the stories often of how they were raised and what they know of how their parents were raised. And each time it's like getting a little better, they're kind of moving the ball forward to a little bit more wholeness. So I'm pretty hopeful.

Host: I always say even if it's baby steps, it still steps forward no matter how big or how small they are. Especially in this large topic. Right. It's so there's so many different components and parts to mental health in general. But then when you break it down into the genders or sexualities, there's even more. That kind of comes with all of that territory too. I.

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Host: I wanted to point out and maybe ask you maybe some insight on this as well. So I identify as female, but I do have several nephews and just younger boys in my life and they're absolutely incredible. But I identify as a female in that I can't necessarily identify or relate to them to some extent anyways what they're feeling in their boyhood or maybe even teen years. Is there any insight into how maybe a non male figure could work to maybe break some of those stigmas or stereotypes? I know I sometimes I'm fortunate and sometimes I'm. I would say unfortunately, but I'm very self aware. And so even in the conversations with the teenagers or my really young nephews, I'm very aware of how I speak to them or what I say. Especially you know, the, the classic when a, when a little girl gets hurt, it's always kind of baby them versus when a boy falls or gets hurt as oh, you're fine, just get back up, you're fine, don't worry about it, don't cry. So I'm very self aware of all of that.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: But do you have any insight into what maybe a non male figure could do to support with their, with all of this kind of larger topic?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean it's a great question. I mean first and foremost, I think just from what you share, it sounds like you're doing a great job terms of just modeling A different kind of conversation or feeling or, you know, opening a space to them to let it know it's available, whether or not they engage in it. Just in the way you hold yourself.

Host: I just. I think back to, I guess, my childhood. Even though I was raised as a female, I still feel like there was a lot of conversations or times that, looking back, I remember a lot of the conversations and a lot of the things shouldn't have been said. So I'm just very aware of, let's not repeat that to my nephews or to any other child. And I guess I kind of. In a really weird way, I look at them as, like, younger me say, what would I want somebody to say?

Jason Lange: Even.

Host: Even if it is my nephews as males, I just. I look at them as babies and kids, and, like, what would younger Jacqueline have wanted to hear that my nephews might want to hear? Rather than dust your feet off and get back up. Stop crying. Right. Because that's not helpful for anybody.

Jason Lange: Yeah, No, I think that's. I think just making it clear that they're allowed to have an inner world. Emotions are okay. Pain is okay. It's okay to share and talk about it and be vulnerable, I think, is really key, along with. Yeah. Just this idea that, you know, they're allowed to be kind of whoever they want. You know, emotions aren't necessarily masculine or feminine or boy or girl. It's just part of what we're doing is breaking up this whole idea of you always have to be tough. You don't always have to be tough. I would say one of the most useful things maybe to just start to feel into. I think that can be really great for boys is it's like, it's not emotions that are the problem. It's what we do with them. So. Right. It's normalizing things. Like, yeah, it's totally okay to be angry. Right. There's nothing wrong with being mad or angry. It's, what do you do with it? There's a big difference between, wow, I'm so mad, I'm gonna go stomp my feet and punch a pillow, versus just I become the anger, and I react and I lash out to my environment or to my people or whatever that might be. So it's the. You know, there's a. There's like, a responsibility for. Actually, it's great that you have emotions, and we just want to be mindful of what we do with them. Right. I think that's a huge shift for a lot of guys. And boys is, you know, there's a difference between reacting and responding. When we react, it's just right. And we can see it. And a lot of boys, unfortunately, grow up and, well, you know, just humans grow up seeing men who have no space between their emotions and their reactions. It just all fused together. Someone cuts them off in line. Right. So part of what, you know, this deep work is, is we teach, you know, boys and men, and humans in general, to start to be able to identify what the sensations are in their bodies. Oh, wow. I'm noticing my chest is feeling really hot and my arms are feeling really tight. I want to make fists. I think I'm feeling angry right now. Feeling angry. That guy cut me off. Right. And that starts to create that space where then you can bring more choice in how you want to respond. So it's what we do with our emotions in my book kind of marks our level of maturity. And that just takes practice. You know, it takes practice helping kids identify what they're feeling and just normalize that. Right. That there's nothing wrong. Just, okay, this is what you're feeling. So now what are you going to do with that? You know, is the important thing.

Host: And the other thing, it sounds. Sorry to cut you off, Jason. It almost sounds like a reminder that, yes, you are human and you're going to have all of these emotions, all these feelings, but when it comes down to it, how are you going to talk about them or how are you going to express them?

Host: I, I really appreciate your insight into that because I was as I'm getting closer with my nephews and watching them grow, they're quite young right now. They're 2 and 5. But while I'm watching them kind of navigate their toddler years and younger child years, I just want to be super mindful because I'm in the field of mental health and trauma, professionally and personally, that I just, I know that people are going to be traumatized based on things that happen regardless. But if I can work to be self aware and hopefully not contribute largely to that, I would love to not. So I think you gave some great tips and insight into that as well. So thank you for that.

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. I'll just say, you know, again, maybe another way to phrase what I said at the beginning, but along with all like the doing things, probably the most important thing you might be bringing them is just deep presence. And so. Right. There's a lot of research. Now Dr. Gabor Mate, who made her phrases it this way is, you know, trauma's not kind of what happens to you. It's like it's what happens in you afterwards. And what's important about that is. Right. And there's countless examples of this. Two people can experience the exact same intense traumatic event, but one of them can be deeply impacted and traumatized by that and one of them can kind of come out okay. And often the difference is what kind of resilient support system do they have to turn to right after the event? Right. If I have someone to turn to Where I can open, I can be held, I can share, I can get nourishment. It's much less likely, right. You know, to come in on what we're talking about. Like, when there's connection present on the other side, it doesn't always, you know, even adverse events don't always lead to that big trauma. And, you know, there's just wild stories about this coming out of where they interviewed a bunch of people who were in London during the blitz in World War II. I mean, so like living underground in the tube, bombs going off every day, not sure where food or water are coming. And wildly enough, a number of those people report that was the happiest time in their life. And they would do anything to go back there. Because even though it was so intense, the level of connection in community and humanity was so high. Where all the social roles broke down, all the status, all the bour. Everybody was mixed together just trying to survive. And so any moment you had, you know, you're having tea with a neighbor, having thankful, just supporting each other. Point being, because the level of connection was so high, some of those people didn't get the type of shell shock we might think you would because they felt connected in that and they were able to be in those experiences and debrief with each other and whatnot. So, you know, it's not always that magical. But I just wanted to tie that into the presence you're bringing them. Just as important as anything else is they have somewhere to go if something happened. Just the fact that you're probably breathing deeply and actually looking them in the eye goes a long way.

Host: Well, thank you for that. I, I think that's a large part of what I'm trying to do. I think in the grand scheme, the larger picture for them, and this is related, but kind of like a 360 degree, because that's how my, My mind works. But when you mentioned that there's a lot of men coming to you for support, kind of across the board for various different topics. Do you have any experience with males coming to you that might not be the white heterosexual male? I just, I, I guess my fascination and my interest lies in various cultures and what their, what their society is teaching their males.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: On how to be or how not to be. And then the other part of that too is maybe it's not just a culture per se, but more sexuality wise.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: Society also plays a huge role in what a heterosexual male, regardless of their color, should, should be versus somebody who may identify as being gay or bisexual.

Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah. I would say, you know, the men's workspace which I'm a part of, it's still predominantly white men. You know, it is starting to change. You know, probably in the last five years in particular there's a lot more diversity coming in and socio economic status. And so I would say maybe 15 to 20% of guys I work with are kind of non Caucasian white maybe about the same, don't identify as straight, straight men. But there are definitely nuances there whether it comes to race or sexual identity in that, you know, certain cultures the, the kind of man box machismo thing is even stronger. Like you do not talk about emotions, you do not share weakness. And so there's like an extra level for some men I work with that, that have that real pressure on them or sometimes just types of conformity. Whether it's coming, they're coming from maybe a more traditional culture where yeah, you have to marry someone with your exact religious preference or ethnic preference or ethnic background or you know, arranged marriage. Like it gets complex out there. And many men definitely that come to me from kind of the non white perspective have that extra tension and it's a challenge. Right. As someone who doesn't come from those spaces, I only know so much about that world. So I can support from kind of a more general like here's how I see men suffer. I see you suffering. You know, there's some shared reality there in, in terms and then there's sometimes there's things that are just totally different, you know, like men I, I do work with that are, maybe bipoc will come in and part of the, the, in the experience for them is like yeah, coming into a men's group where they might be the only person of color and every other man there is white. And you know, having to share their experiences of like yeah, usually in the past when I'm in a room of white people doesn't feel so good. So you know, my, my, my guard is up here a little bit and we just have to acknowledge the truth, honestly of that and the experiences that, that people have that as hard as it is, as it is for most men, there's extra challenges for some men even more. Whether it's around their sexual orientation or their race or whatever that might be. But what I have the most hopeful thing I've seen is so what happens when guys get deep and real and authentic and vulnerable is it, it creates a pathway to connection underneath all that where it's like yeah, sometimes there's different levels of stressors on the surface, but oftentimes where we're suffering underneath is very similar. And once a man feels another man in that, there's like a real brotherhood that can be created pretty fast. That, again, is one of the things that makes me pretty hopeful, because then it's like, oh, we're seeing each other as humans, not as whatever these labels are we sometimes put on each other.

Host: I almost wanted to say too, right. When you mentioned that maybe there's one black male in a group of multiple white males. I think there's a lot of power that can be held in that space where. Where I guess, like, the. The white males may be able to understand the black male differently, but still creates that sense of community and connection, regardless of the color of the skin or background or anything like that. I think that in, like, the deepest sense, they can still relate. And I think that's the important, powerful part.

Jason Lange: Yeah. In the best case scenarios, that. That's what I see happen is when we, you know, when men, frankly, when men feel safe to be vulnerable, then there's a whole deeper level of connection that can really come online that crosses all kinds of backgrounds and changes and divisions and even political ideology. You know, we're in such a politically charged place. What I found is when people are actually up close and personal and drop all that, there's actually way more connection than they even realize. And it's like, oh, wow, I never would have guessed. But now, like, I consider you a friend, and to me, that's like, we need a lot more of that.

Host: Well, and to be able to build a connection with somebody kind of peeling away all the different layers, the politics, the colors, the religion, all of that. I think fundamentally we're just humans that want a sense of belonging and connection, regardless of who we are.

Jason Lange: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the work I do. I think there's a benefit to two things, and I wouldn't do either exclusively. There's. There is something powerful that can happen when we sit in circle in a group particular with those who have a fair amount of shared reality with us, meaning raised in a similar context, or whether that's based on our gender, like I'm a man, or our sexuality or our race or our religion. There's. There's just something I do see with men when there's. It's just a group of men and there's like an exhale of you guys get it, just like get the struggles or pains of what it is to be a man and all these different things. Just like, you know, my Wife leads women's groups. I know the same thing happens there. There are definitely men's groups that, you know, for people of color. And I think there's that there too, that it's just, oh, I get to exhale here because you guys all get right what it means to move through the world in a different way. So there's a huge amount of usefulness in that and then there's usefulness in like having to get mixed in with people who are a little different than us for whatever reason. And so there's a real benefit to both. And one of the things I do appreciate about the men's work I've been involved in is it, it tends to hit a pretty good mix where there's enough shared reality. Sometimes just from the fact that we're men, even if, you know, guys who are not straight come in, like there's still enough of that kind of patriarchal crap. We got beat over the heads with that. There can be that shared reality and then there's some difference too. And that can be really profound for guys to kind of hear about those experiences firsthand or, um. And it can create that other kind of level of connection. And it's why, even though I'm big proponent of men's groups, you know, I recommend at some point most men have the experience of being in some kind of co ed group because then you get to hear what's going on on the other side, so to speak. And it's wild how, you know, people like, I had no idea. And again, what it often generates in my mind is just more compassion for each other.

Host: I think, like I've said so many times already, Jason, I think the work that you're doing is so powerful but crucial, especially in today's society where we're, we're faced with so many stereotypes and stigmas across the board. But then like I mentioned, we throw in male mental health and it's just that much more stigmatized. So your work is just so, so important to society. And I'm, I feel hope because you're very hopeful that it will continue to improve. Sorry, I have a puppy in the background.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's okay. I got kiddo just woke up upstairs.

Host: So I wanted to ask you though, Jason, what is the best way for listeners in general, or any males to connect with you?

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. Best thing to do. Easiest thing to do is just go to my website, evolutionary.men. so it's not dot com, it's actually dot men, but you can just go to evolutionary dot men and I have a podcast of my own where I talk about a lot of the things I work with men around and I'm seeing men deal with. I have some writing on there, events on there, workshops, retreats, all that kind of stuff. And if nothing else, just drop me a. A note in my contact form. And I love supporting men, getting men connected to groups, whether you work with me or not, just helping you find something that you might engage with. Because the, you know, the truth is the days of doing it alone, they're just over. You know, the. Another way of phrase this is. Yeah, the myth of the lone wolf. You know, that a lot of guys like to feel I am tough. I don't need anyone. But, you know, the. The raw, honest truth in nature is the lone wolf is the one that was kicked out of the pack, and they die faster. They do not survive as long as the wolf in the pack. So, you know, this is a call to any men if. If you're suffering or feel alone or disconnected, it's time to take a chance and try something else and get some support. I can tell you, as I tell my guys, it's like, it's not that life gets easier, but it gets way better. Way, way better when you have a support system around you.

Host: I think that's a perfect segue into asking you for. And let's do whatever comes to mind for you when I ask for any words of support, encouragement, wisdom. What comes to mind when I ask you that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say I think we're incredibly blessed to be alive right now, despite all the chaos sometimes we say. And why I say that is there has never been a better moment in human history to be able to just actually go for it and make substantial change in your healing journey. So. Meaning the. The ways you're showing up in the world for whatever reasons, you know, a lot of guys feel I'm too broken or it's never going to work, or I'm stuck. And the truth is, no, we. We have more tools than ever where, if you really want to take ownership and say, you know what? I want to handle this. Want to handle this thing that's been bothering me my whole life, it's really, really possible now in pretty wild ways. And life can change. I mean, I work with guys all the time, and within three to six months, they're in a completely different place, and they feel something is possible that they just did not know or couldn't have even fathomed before that. And oftentimes, you know, when we're not where we want to be in our lives as men. It's not because there's something wrong with us. We're not not enough or, you know, the many stories men or we're a failure that men tend to carry. It's often two things. We haven't had the right training, and we haven't had the right support. And when you get the right support around you and you get the right training, boom, life can change really fast. So, no, it's possible. It certainly was for me.

Host: Incredible. I wanted to thank you so much, Jason, for a few things, for guesting and having this conversation with me. But more importantly than just the conversation with me is the work that you do day in and day out and all of the conversations within, all of the work that you do. I think I've said so many times it's crucial, and our world needs it more than ever right now. So thank you so much for guesting and also just the work that you do.

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Host: Of course. And to you, Jason, and to the listeners, I'm sending you both lots of love and lots of light.