135: How being ‘disrespectful’ could help your sex life | Dear Men

Jason Lange: Like, it's okay if you're not ready for that, but I just really want you to know, like, I am into this and I am into you. Right there's that. You can feel the energy. It's not. It doesn't mean you don't want it. You know, I think that's the key, is you can still be allowed to want it, even if there's no expectation tied to it. And if you forget to be in the energy of the wanting, she's never going to feel that. And it's going to be that more flat, nice guy kind of energy.

Melanie Curtin: Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode. I'm thrilled to have Jason back. Thank you for being here. Hello again, frequent podcast co host. So tonight. Well, tonight, since it's our nighttime, I guess it's. Whenever you're listening to it, we are going to be talking about respect and the shadow side of it, and specifically around sexuality and sex. And part of the reason I wanted to do this episode is because I used to do qualitative interviews around sexuality, meaning in depth interviews with men. And one of the topics that I did these interviews around was learning about sex. Where did you learn about sex? How did you learn about sex? And then sort of, how did that. How does that inform your sex life now? And what is your sex life now like? And questions like that to just kind of get a snapshot of different men's experience. Because as a woman, I don't know what the male experience is. And since I coach men, I really wanted to understand and kind of get a fuller picture around what men are struggling with and what they're celebrating around sex and sexuality. So I did at least 20 of these qualitative interviews with men from a pretty diverse background, different ages, different races, different sort of socioeconomic class, things like that. It's pretty well rounded. And one thing that I noticed sort of across the board was the language that men used around sex and in particular the sort of euphemisms. So, for example, several of the men said, you know, well, it's been over two years since I've been intimate with a woman. Things like that, that were like euphemisms for sex. They weren't even really willing to say the word sex or fuck, or explicit words about anatomy, things like that. And it was really interesting because as I was mapping sort of different men's experience with sex and sort of like, how much sex were they having, right? Like, how many partners had they had, how many, you know, how much sex did they feel like they had access to in their life, did it feel scarce for them? Did it feel easy for them to have sex with women? Things like that? What I noticed was that it was almost like I could predict their experience around sex with the language that they were using, the actual words that they were using. And the more euphemisms a man was using, the more he was sort of dancing around the topic, like, not really wanting to say explicit words. It was almost like the more that man struggled with sex. And I've noticed that a little bit as well with our clients in our coaching program. And I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to your journey, your experience around language and why this is so common, why these euphemisms are often used in terms of men expressing, you know, either their desire or their thwarted desire or just all of that sort of stuff. Like, what was your journey around that? And what do you notice in our clients? Mostly your journey. I'm interested in your sort of personal.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, my journey started with I didn't even use words because I didn't even talk about it. Right. For some of our listeners, I was a late bloomer. So I didn't lose my virginity till I was 26. And up until that point, it wasn't. I would avoid conversations about sex or sexuality like the plague because there was just in that there was shame for me. So it wasn't something I really had a conversation around, truth be told. And it was something that. I think there was a parallel in some ways in my journey to becoming sexually active and discovering that part of myself that the language was similar to how I was showing up in the experience. It's kind of the only way I could put it. And what I mean by that is, you know, there was. The first times I was sexual, it was awesome, and it was great. And it was a lot for my nervous system, like, more in retrospect. Do I see this? That even in it, I was still a little numbed. Like, I wasn't really quite in it as much as, you know, I am now with a trusting, loving partner, which meant, you know, I didn't really quite have access to all the pleasure that was possible at that time. So there was like, a. Particularly early on for me, there was a little bit of kind of numbness. And I think that just kind of showed up in the languaging at first, you know, and how I would say that is, even vocalizing, like, what I wanted or what I wanted to do in the bedroom was, like, hard for me at first. Right. It Wasn't something that was comfortable for me. But as I.

Melanie Curtin: Can you give an example of what that actually concretely sounded like? Like when you say a little bit numb, like, hey, I'd like to get together tonight, or like, what. What did it actually sound like in terms of the words?

Jason Lange: I think it was. I mean, it was that I wouldn't really use words. I think that's it. So it wouldn't be like, wow, you look hot right now. I want to have. I want to fuck you. You know, that'd be like a super blunt way of doing it, you know, to some extent. But, like, that wasn't really there. It was more, I don't know, fumbling my way into it is the only way I could kind of put it.

Melanie Curtin: Got it. So the. So the numbing was more like an absence of any words, so no real communication.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think what I mean by numbing is like, I wasn't totally in my body in my first times, so there was like a little bit of, you know, just a little bit of distance between me and my experience because it was so new and it was so novel and it was so vulnerable in some ways in the. That piece, I think showed up in that I just wasn't comfortable talking about my experience or vocalizing much in it. You know, I think before I forget this, you know, one thing I think we'll be able to weave into this conversation is the power of vocalization. And that just sound in general in the bedroom can be an edge for certainly me and I think many men I've. We've worked with for the very reasons we're about to talk to about just general language. So for me, it was. It was a journey of getting more, you know, as I got more comfortable with myself and with my sexuality. And truth be told, as I got more comfortable with my intimate partners, then it became something I was able to lean into as I got older and to be able to actually, you know, I think now where I stand, you know, there's something. There's actually something special about some of the sex words, right? Like cock and pussy. And just like that in the context of the bedroom, they, like, really charged. Like, they're. They're great because they're not normal words, if that makes sense. They're like words for that polarity, for that energy that, um, I. I'm far more comfortable with now and far more excited by now, truth be told. Right. Like, it can actually deepen a moment quite a bit using language. Right? Juicy, hot, sexy language in a moment. That is something that I've been super grateful to have had experienced in, you know, in my marriage now.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's interesting because there's almost like two spheres of. There's two spheres of. Well, there's several spheres of war languages used. But one is with your sexual partner, right? So the relationship between the two of you, or multiple partners, if that's what you're doing. And then there's language about sex with other people. And that I think is sort of where my research came in of, you know, I'm talking to this sex researcher about sex, and I don't feel comfortable saying the word sex. You know, I think a lot of the men that were responding to my research and everything, I think they were not aware of this. I don't think they were conscious of it. I don't think that, you know, part of the value of being a researcher in any capacity is that we have a broad landscape, right. We see many different people responding to the same question, and so we can pull out patterns. But when you're in the experience of being a person answering the questions, you don't have that sort of range of view. And this is sort of why I wanted to bring it to the surface, because as someone looking at the patterns, again, there was a correlation between men that were able to own their desire and able to talk about sex using language versus men who were not. And I. Yeah, I want to. I want to sort of discuss why that is like, so, because I want to. And I want to start there. I want to start with sort of talking about sex with people that aren't your sexual partner. And then we can also cover that because it feels like there's. That a lot of this comes down to respect. It comes down to. So I think for a lot of men, it's coming from a good place. It's sort of like, well, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be a dick. I don't want to be a player. I don't want to be an asshole. I don't want to be a rapist. Right. I think there's actually association with sexual violence in terms of me using explicit sexual language. And I'm wondering if you can speak to that a little bit. Like, were you afraid? You know, before you sort of got more conscious? Like, if I say, man, I would love to have sex with that woman, were you afraid that you would come across as that guy? And did that sort of dictate how you talked about it or didn't talk about sexual.

Jason Lange: Yeah, for me, I don't think it dictated so much just because I happen to be lucky and have generally surrounded myself with really high quality men. So it wasn't like. That was never so much an issue for me. But what I can speak to is the experience of having definitely witnessed macho, that guy culture and what it feels like to be in the presence of it when there are men talking about women and sexuality in that purely objective, like, conquer her kind of way like that. I don't know how else to put it, but. Right. It's about the notches on the belt. It's about just her physicality. She's not really a person. The things I want to do to her. That kind of stuff that I had experienced and been around. Right. In, you know, kind of traditional locker room culture, as we might joke about it. But there's some truth in it.

Melanie Curtin: And there's a lot of truth in it. There's a lot of. It's not just a small amount. I mean, that's why we've been talking about toxic masculinity as a culture is exactly what you're describing, which is I use women for my benefit, and I use women to get status with men. So they're not even people. They're just this thing that I use to look cool or to look, I don't know. Manly.

Jason Lange: Absolutely. And so there's, you know, I think some of underneath what we're talking about is reactionary to that. Don't want to be that. Because I see that and I don't agree with that, and I don't believe in that. I don't want to be that guy. You know, that kind of just my way or the highway. Take what I want guy that. I think probably a lot of men listening to this podcast have experienced or seen or, you know, had someone they like, end up going off and date and wonder, like, what? What? So I think some of it then ties into the respect piece of, you know, don't kiss and tell. Right. Like, you know, confusion. I think if most of the male culture we've been in is or been around is kind of that macho. There's a. I don't know how, like, what is the respectful way to talk about my sex life, which is something that's incredibly important to me as a human being and man, how do I bring that into conversation in a way that honors a partner? Right. Or honors what I experienced in that partner without it being kind of, you know, kiss and tell, so to speak. I know that's something I've certainly navigated and comes up in our program sometimes when we're talking to guys and working with guys about their history is there's a desire to, you know, honor the women they were with in that experience. And then I think the language then how I would say is that that results from like two different components. There's the component of not wanting to be that guy, so being very careful about languaging to make sure I'm not that guy. And then what I would say is probably the deeper manifestation of just not being fully grounded in and relaxed in our sexual power and desire. And so, like, you know, that's kind of the roots underneath. And then the languaging that comes out is kind of the trees and the branches and whatnot over top. And that if we haven't, you know, like my journey and many journey, if we haven't done our work to get comfortable with that, to know that, you know, we have that inside of us and that in the right container with the right agreements. It's actually a beautiful thing to share with a partner that, you know, our kind of sexual animal or sexual beast. But if we're not comfortable with that, it's going to be really hard for that, I think, to come out, so to speak. And we're going to be very careful with our words. And, you know, I would also just tie everything I was talking about into kind of the general, you know, nice guy syndrome that we often speak to of, like we said, a little bit less connection to our root and our sexual power and oftentimes a lot more energy in our heads or our hearts. And, you know, one thing I kind of believe around this is. And this is the trap, you know, I have fallen in. And we've worked with men around of the don't want a woman to think I'm into her just for sexual. And there's a thing about that that that even goes deeper than her, I think, sometimes. And it's actually us. I don't want to think I'm into a woman just for sex. And if I don't get sex, then I'm a bad person. So there's this, like, emphasis on everything else and the emotional connection and the heart. And I think that actually does impact the languaging.

Melanie Curtin: Then. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about why that is? Why it. Because in my experience of it, it's like I don't want to be seen as a sexual beast or predator or I don't Want to be seen as just being in it for the sex. Because that would make me fill in the blank. What is the blank? What is the sort of root fear of. Then I will be seen as whatever. And then what will happen if I am seen as that?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think, you know, maybe shallow, dangerous. That guy. Right. Not a good guy. Yeah, I think that, you know, like, it's kind of a weird label for it, but, like, oh, if I was. If I just wanted to have sex with someone, that must mean I'm not a good guy.

Melanie Curtin: I'm bad.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Like, there's something bad about me that the only reason I want to interact with this person right now, you know, that might not be the only reason, but a big part of my draw to this person is I would like to have sex with them.

Melanie Curtin: Yes.

Jason Lange: Like, which I actually think is a big part of what pulls people together. And when we deny that, I think it has ramifications for how we talk and the kind of softening of our language around all that. That, I think, is what you were kind of noticing, I imagine, in the languaging of these men and a discomfort for them to own that part.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I think I wanted to slow that down and expose that, because Dr. Glover talks about this, and I think other psychologists do as well. The difference between toxic shame and other kinds of shame. And toxic shame is essentially, I'm bad. The belief that I am fundamentally flawed. I'm bad. And I think that when I imagine being a man and I imagine my fear of, like, if I own, like, oh, man, I would love to have sex with her, I will be seen as bad. Like, that guy's a bad guy. He's bad. And I will do everything I possibly can to cover that up or hide that or paper it over or avoid it or whatever because of toxic shame. And I think that it's important to kind of, you know, like, help realize that what we're going for in the end is an and I want to have sex with her, and I want to get to know her. I want to have sex with her, and I want to. Whatever, fill in the blank. It doesn't have to just be, I want to bang her so that I get a notch on my belt. It can also, like, sex drive is healthy. Ultimately, your sex drive is healthy. It's part of what makes you a man or a woman. But in this case, we're mostly talking about men. It's part of your power, like you said, it's part of your drive. It's part of what Pulls you towards someone. It's part of what helps you take action. Right? It's a healthy. It's a healthy drive and this sort of suppression that's happening that I have witnessed over and over, it kind of mutes a man, if that makes what I've seen repeatedly. Is it like mutes his colors? Like, he's just a bit smaller. He's not as powerful in his life. He's kind of hiding some stuff and disowning some stuff, and it's coming out sideways and in weird sort of ways. And I think an example of this is I remember having lunch or dinner or something with one of my guy friends, and I said the word fuck. And I don't remember what the context was. Like, oh, I just want to get fucked or something like that. Like, I just want to have sex. And he started, like, laughing uncontrollably. And for some, it somehow it came up. And I said, well, you know, do you not say the word fuck? Do you never say the word fuck? And he was like, no. And I basically challenged him to use it. And it's so funny because we started talking about, like, why. What is it about that word that has you so uncomfortable? And, you know, there's a lot of cultural baggage around the word fuck, which is part of why I think it's great sometimes. Because I think sort of, to your point, about cock and pussy and explicit words, I think there is a charge there. There's a lot of sort of, like, there's a lot of power kind of wrapped up in it. And I don't think it necessarily has to be bad. I don't think it's necessarily a bad word. I think it's one of those words where the energy with which you wielding it makes, makes, or breaks the use of it, right? Like, that girl could be a really sort of negative way of using it. Like, I used her, right? I used her. Like, we fucked last night. Could be. Like, it was fun. Like we fucked. Like, it was not. You know, we didn't make love. You know what I'm saying? Like, we fucked.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, great. Like, there. So there's exactly. It's primal. Yeah. Maybe that's what it is. So anyway, so we have this conversation, and he sort of. You could sort of see a light bulb going off. Like, he's sort of dawning on him. Like, wow, I do have a problem with this word. Or I have had a problem with this word. And I sort of challenged him. I was like, say the word fuck right now. Say the Word fuck. And he again was like giggling uncontrollably. Like, took him a while, but he got there, you know, he like hung in there. So he says this word and I swear to God, like, oh my God, it couldn't have been a month later. He got a girlfriend and he'd been having a serious dry spell. And I think just raising the awareness and getting that word in his mouth, in his consciousness, in his awareness, in his body and kind of all the things that came up with it, I think kind of activated him in a positive way. And it sort of reminds me of, yeah, something like fire, right? Like fire can be used for arson. It can burn something down, it can destroy. It can also be campfire. It can be a place that people gather around. So when we're talking about elemental, fundamental sexuality, including something like the word fuck, yeah, of course it can be used for bad. Of course it can. Of course it can. It can also be healthy. It can also be an expression of healthy sexuality. And yeah, I guess I'm wondering again to kind of bring it back to your journey, what, what helped you kind of overcome your sexual shame? How did you get from, you know, this sort of numb? Like, I just kind of avoid that conversation. Like I avoid it with people and I also avoid it with partners to kind of where you are now, which is like a lot more expressed and a lot more owning your power and actually, you know, finding new ways of having fun with it.

Jason Lange: Totally. You know, we've talked about this a lot, but probably more than anything else, just getting in my body, getting more comfortable being in my body and you know, this will kind of sound strange, but learning to access that energy in non sexual places. So this is something I have definitely gotten in my experiences of men's work of like actually turn, tuning into and dropping into, you know, that more primal, fierce fuck energy, which is something you can bring to an intimate partner, a woman, you know, someone you want to have sex with. It's also an energy you can bring to the world right to the moment. That, that, that's like the deeper manifestation of, you know, to, to fuck is to open in a lot of ways. So for me, as I got more into that and got more into my power and you know, claiming in my body and getting rooted in my body and learning to make noise in my body, you know, I would actually say that was a big part of it. It was learning to be in my body and scream and make noise and not be afraid of feeling anger or, you know, more charged energy that, that Kind of opened up the channels and then, you know, the words are more comfortable now for me. And you know, I think also just understanding in my journey with, you know, with my teacher helping to guide me, my teachers, you know, really making clear that like you said, it's like fire can be dangerous or it can be good in terms of like our sexuality, our cock energy as men, our fuck, our desire. It's dangerous when it's matched with a purely closed heart, right? That's, that's when it causes trouble, right? That's when we've just totally disconnected from the other human being and it's an object and we, we can do horrible things to her. And many, many men do, right? But when you can bring that energy along with an open heart so you're attuned to your partner, you're feeling your partner, she's a whole human being. You're seeing her and feeling her as a human being. And this goes for. Even if it's a one night stand. So when you're never going to see again to, you know, the person you've been with forever, that there's like a heart openness. So the energy is kind of coming up from there and through the heart in service of this like just raw, wild, primal connection. It can be sometimes. And so I think when I realized that it's like, oh, it's not that part that's bad, it's just when it's just that part. And that's the thing we often experience in other men because particularly in locker rooms, you don't. Locker room culture, as we talk about, it's not a place you feel a lot of masculine open heartedness in general, let alone around sexuality. So I think is that as I understood that and then got to experience other men who had a lot of fuck energy, who I could feel their fuck energy. I was like, holy fuck, that's, that's powerful, right? And I could still feel their heart. I was like, oh, I can see. I can totally feel why that would be actually a gift to my partner. And in some ways I'm. It's going to kind of sound weird, but I'm like a little stingy if I can't bring that to a partner because it's vulnerable to bring that energy. For me, like it actually means being vulnerable to be open hearted and bring my full power and my fuck, so to speak. So I think once I learned that, you know, it's just a matter of keeping the heart open. With that, I relaxed and got more comfortable into it in the language and the just bringing that energy into my sexuality.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. I want to ask you a little about what you do notice in men who are cut off from that cock energy. What? What? Because you've done thousands probably of calls with men now at this point. What do you know? I mean, do you notice this language thing and what do you notice about.

Jason Lange: I think it's, you know, one of the things I'll say is oftentimes because I mean, in some sense it's a perfect laboratory because I'm, you know, when I talk to guys about joining our program, oftentimes the first call is just over the phone. So all I have is their voice and their words. And in that I can often learn just a lot in terms of how they're talking, feeling, where their energy is. It's crazy over phone, right? But I can feel that. And I think just that language, the softer, intimate language, it tends to, I just, it's kind of, you can't see me. But it tends to live more in our heart, in our head, right? Like that type of word, that type of flowery languaging, that's it's more heart and head energy and it's not cock root energy, fuck, pussy. Like, you know, these are like charged words, they're shorter, they're like exhales, they're, they're, they're rooted energy a lot of times. So the, you know, the impact is, I think it's kind of a two way thing is if it keeps guys up in their heads and it's also a manifestation of them being in their heads. And attraction, I mean there's a type of attraction that does. Right? So I know everything, everybody can be attracted to everything. But, but most of the time the type of retraction we're talking about, it happens in our body, it happens down low. And so if we're using languaging that kind of keeps us up here and then our energy is up here. Because for some, you know, for some of us this was a journey I was on, right. It's uncomfortable to feel like, to be looking at a girl and be like, oh my God, I want to see you naked. I want to, I want to do this to you and I would do this to you and I want to do this to you. If we're not like breathed in that energy, so to speak, we're not going to want to go there. So it's kind of like clamping off that and then we're just like up here and then we wonder why, you know, Guys I've talked to and certainly me at different points, why we can't really get past a date or two. Or it's just kind of. It's not that it's, like, bad. It's like friendly. The conversation's okay, but there's just no. There's no juice, there's no charge. And then it never seems to go anywhere. I would actually say is part of the cost of not having. Even if we're not using the word fuck on a first date, having access to that and actually feeling that energy while you're in someone's presence, I think would be a big, big part of that.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I'm glad that you brought that up, because I know this has come up several times on our calls with the men that we work with where there's this question of, like, well, how the fuck do I do that? Like, how. You know, I'm not gonna say, like, hey, I would love to fuck you on a first date. Because obviously that's not necessarily appropriate. And I think I'm bringing in the word appropriate mindfully, because I think that's another word that comes up a lot as appropriate and inappropriate. And a lot of what we talk about is it's not something you have to say. You don't have to say, I would love to fuck you. Right? That's probably a phrase or a sentence that you're going to be using once you're committed or you're dating, right? You're in a committed scenario. You've gotten a yes from. This is someone you're relating with rather than before. There's consent and things like that. But I do think that there's. To your point of embodiment, right? When you're breathing and you're feeling like, I would love to bend her over that chair right now. When you are willing to feel that in your body, when you are willing to be with that sensation of, mm, I would love to bend her over. Like, when you're right with that. Because I think what happens a lot is a man will have a thought like that and be like, like you said, shoop, gotta get. Tuck that away. Like, gotta get that away. Like, that means I'm bad, right? If I have that impulse, that means I'm bad. Sort of like overcoming sexual shame is taking the. That means I'm bad away. Or. Or even. That's a healthy part of me. That's a healthy part of me. Ah, I would love to bend her over. It doesn't mean I'm going to in that moment. It doesn't mean I'm just going to rape her, but I'm cool with. I'm right with my desire. I would love to bend over that table right now. Like, when you can sit with that and feel that, and you can feel that in your cock, in your root. Like, she's going to feel it. Even if you're on a date. Like, you're looking at her in the dress and you're like, that's a nice dress on you. Like, she's gonna feel that you didn't say anything inappropriate, but you owned your fucking desire. And that's the thing, I think that's been really exciting witnessing in our clients is seeing men kind of bringing this in a new way and sort of really getting it in their bodies of like, oh, it's not that I have to say all of this stuff. It's. I have to feel it. I get to feel it. And. And then watching them watch the response from women is exciting to me. Like, several of our men dates, and they're like, whoa, sparks. Like, it was way different. And I find that really thrilling because, again, it's not about what you're saying or not saying necessarily. It's who are you being in that moment? Are you right with your desire? Are you right with your sexuality? That's an exciting man to be around. Right? It's like, it feels really good because it's not. What feels threatening to me as a woman is I'm feeling my desire. And I don't really see you or your. No right. Instead of I'm feeling my desire. Yes, I would love to get together with you. And I'm listening to you. I'm listening to your body language. I'm listening to the words you're saying. I'm with you. I'm attuned to the signals I'm getting. It's not that I'm just going to override all that shit because I want to get what I want. There's like. That's. What's the threatening part. It's not the sexuality. It's not the desire. It's not the man's desire. That's not what's threatening. What's threatening is. I'm not listening. I don't care about your. No, I don't. I don't want to hear it. Right? Not physically, you know, in any way. I don't want to hear it. It's like, that's what feels threatening. That's what feels threatening. Not the actual physical, you know, embodiment of desire.

Jason Lange: Totally And I think what you just spoke to is really key in that this kind of goes back to what I was talking about earlier. That for some of us nice guys, there's a story we create that being interested in someone for more than just sexual reasons is better. Right? Is better. So I should be just as interested in her if. If there's no sex on the table. Right. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but I think that's a calculus that comes up sometimes. So the result of that can sometimes be. So I don't need any of that energy online. I can just avoid it or ignore it or whatever. Versus what I think you were just speaking to is the freedom in when a man or a partner is, is like, yeah, I want to have sex with you. I would love to have sex with you. And I don't need to like, it's okay if you're not ready for that. But I just really want you to know, like, I am into this and I am into you. Right there's that you can feel the energy. It's not. It doesn't mean you don't want it. You know, I think that's the key is you can still be allowed to want it even if there's no expectation tied to it. And if you forget to be in the energy of the wanting, she's never going to feel that and it's going to be that more flat, nice guy kind of energy, so to speak. So it's important to practice allowing yourself, you know, and that's one of the things we work with our men on of like being in their desire and being okay with that and learning to recognize and be comfortable with that energy so we don't just immediately shut it down and we don't have to like do anything with it yet. Right?

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I just want to sort of normalize that. I do think that men receive pretty confusing programming around sexuality in our culture and many cultures around the world. I do. I really feel like there's a lot of sort of like, men are dogs, men are pigs, men only want sex, men are shitty human beings, men are fuckboys. Like there's a lot of messaging around men and shaming men for their sexuality. So this isn't something that happens in a vacuum, I guess is what I want to name here.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Melanie Curtin: The wider culture and the environment in which we grow up. You know, I'm becoming more aware of all of that, especially as I'm doing more anti racism work of things that have been hidden and unconscious bias. That's coming to the surface. And I think I'm also becoming aware of just around sexuality. What were the sort of memos we received or messaging? And I think this is one of them. And I can't name a single thing. It's in tv, it's in movies, it's in memes. It's conversations that, you know, people have on the bus. It's around. It's in the culture that men suck because all they want is sex. So then there's this sort of pushback response of, again, well, I don't want to be that guy. So I swing to the other side of the pendulum of, like, I want to be a good guy. Like, I want to be one of the good ones. I want to be respectful. I want to make sure I respect her. And there's this kind of swing that I think would be much, much more tempered if there were healthy role models for what we're talking about, of embodied masculine that's bringing cock energy and heart energy at the same time. Right. That's sort of showing up with both of those. And I'm wondering if you had any role models along your journey or if you have any now around men that you feel like are actually, you know, embodying this. And it doesn't necessarily have to be around sex, but just sort of the healthy masculine, like a man that's embodying both of these at the same time instead of just choosing one or the other.

Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah. More than I could count. I'm grateful in that regard because I'm in many men's groups. I've been through many men's trainings. Some men older than me, some of my coaches, some of my teachers. I've experienced. I've just experienced that energy and. And I've experienced it in a way where I can feel how it opens me. Right. And that's. And I'm like, wow, that I feel good in that energy. So that energy must not be bad. Right? Is one of the ways it got rewired in me that, like, oh, that's totally okay. That's a piece I really want to learn to embrace, and that can be really fun to embrace. So, yeah, I definitely have some teachers and some older men in my life in particular that I've seen manifest that and. And seeing the impact it also has when they bring it to their partners, like, and what a gift that is and seeing that. Oh, yeah, okay. This is a really powerful exchange. And, you know, there was one last thing that just kind of hit me that I just want to name out there that might be true for some of the men that I think could be related to some of this. And you know, we were talking about that like spectrum of, you know, fuck to make love, right? Which in my organization of the world, you know, fuck would be just the more primal, animalistic energy and make love would be the more like deeply emotional, attuned, connected, like really being with each other piece that I tend to think more people have experience of in relationship where there's some kind of safety and trust built over time. And I actually think a lot of the guys that come work with us, and certainly me, you know, when I was on this journey, we actually really want relationship where like I was lonely, I wanted a partner. I wasn't actually super interested in just going out and having one night stands. Like the thing I wanted was a partner. And so I think that energy kind of moves that direction right then because it's, that's what I'm wanting. And to me that's more the space of make love and be intimate. But what I have found is I need to have access to the fuck to get to that relationship. So that was just one thing I wanted to name that. You know, I think for some of the nice guys we work with, and I mean that in a good way, there's a desire to not just be having sex but to have like deeper connection with it or some kind of relationship, which I think some people means that comes with a certain type of language versus still being able to access this other language or speak that way or know that, yeah, I want to have that even part of my relationship, so to speak.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thanks for speaking to that. And I think that's another sort of like I'm remembering there. So some of my teachers are London and Justin and they, they had this teaching around women that were in long term committed relationships where both partners wanted the sex to be hotter, but especially the women wanted the sex to be hotter. They would have them wear like a white T shirt that said, please rip this off of me. Like for God's sake, rip this off of me. And to kind of help their partner, help their man access like the fuck energy, right? This is, they're in relationship and they are craving this energy from their men. This isn't like sort of to your point. It's not like you get into a relationship. And I've read multiple accounts of men who essentially lost their partners because they weren't able to access this more primal energy. And there's something deeply nourishing for the Feminine about receiving that kind of energy. Like, I want to know that you want to fuck me. I want to know that you're hot for me. I want to feel like you can't keep your hands off of me. I want to feel desired. And it's hard for me as a woman to feel desired deeply if all your brain is like, oh baby, I love you so much. This is so like you can hear in my voice. There's like this, it's in the upper registers. It's really sweet, it's romantic and there's a way that I want that. And if that's all I'm getting, there's almost a way that I feel like pushing it away. It's hard to like words, but as a woman I've noticed that sometimes it kind of like makes my skin crawl or like something feels just missing. It's hard to put into words, but it's like, like, is that all?

Jason Lange: It's a polarity thing.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's like a polarity thing.

Jason Lange: There's a polarity piece because there's like a pleasing. And I've been there, I do it like kind of a, kind of a nice pleasing, like, oh, do I have permission for us to have sex right now? Like I'd like to have sex right now.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Which isn't right, doesn't like turn the turn on, so to speak, versus the like. Again, the key to this would be is the, you know, you may not get it, but just like, yeah, I'm horny, I want to fuck you. Like, you know, I'm down. Like, let's do this. Without the expectation, but owning that, like, I want this, I'm kind of having this desire right now, but versus that kind of more soft thing that I think a lot of us get to now. I actually think that skill in my experience is more important in long term relationship. Most but not all, you know, in my experience of some of the relationships I was in, that energy was more welcomed in relationship than it was early, if that makes sense.

Melanie Curtin: When you say that energy, you're talking about that energy.

Jason Lange: So like, like animal fucking energy. Like it's, it's, you know, in, in the kind of work we're trained in and help guys with, you know, men can go at it right away. The feminine nervous system often needs a little bit more safety and trust and solid container to fully open. Which sometimes comes from just a little bit more connection. Whether not it doesn't have to be commitment but a little bit more connection. Right. For that to happen. So the More a woman opens, I think the more room there is for that kind of primal energy for a man to really bring it. That can happen I think more often in some kind of deeply connected relationship than not. When it's like, I don't know who this guy, you know, earlier experiences, you don't really know what's going on. Right. A lot of times. So that would just be one thing. But yeah, having that skill. And this is something I tell all the guys that work with us. We're. Most of them are coming in to improve their dating. And I'm like, and the real thing here, man, is what we're teaching you is going to help you in your dating. But more importantly, it's going to help you keep a long term relationship thriving. Because that's where polarity is not optional. Like you and I have talked about the. There's the dopamine, Cliff. The hormones wear off, that instant insta fuck, so to speak. Energy isn't necessarily there. It has to be cultivated. Part of that has to be cultivated. Knowing how to get in touch with it in our body and bring it to help, you know, start an energetic exchange with our partner. And I absolutely know relationships that have died because that was no longer on the table.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, and it's fucking edgy, right? I mean that's why it's scary to. It's. It's not easy for either partner. But you know, I'm thinking of men saying like, you look really good right now, I would love to fuck you. You know, that's scary. It's edgy. It's like, maybe I'll get rejected, maybe she'll think I'm bad. Right. It's not the whole point. Especially I think in long term relationships it's where things are edgy, that things are exciting. And the thing about the edge is that sometimes you get cut. And so there's a natural desire to not go there. But it's almost like this is what life demands of you. If you want to have a hot long term relationship, you've got to get edgy. And it's almost like there's no way around that. There's no way to stay comfortable and things to stay hot, you actually have to confront the edges and that's exciting in a way. And also confronting. Cause it's like, well, but I want to stay comfortable. I want to believe it's possible to be completely comfortable and completely connected and have hot sex. I want to, I want to.

Jason Lange: Leading with vulnerability thing. Right. Sometimes you still got to bring it, you Always have to bring it long term in every relationship. It's never like it goes away. The last piece that just really hit me too, that I will name that I think is an experience definitely some men in our program have had is just in their journey of sexual healing. There can be some legit PTSD from being with a partner who was not okay with their sexuality or herself hadn't quite done some of her sexual healing. So sex wasn't really an open thing on the table. And if you're with someone and get rejected a certain amount of times or that's made wrong, I think that really does something to our nervous system as mental. If our partner isn't aware of how vulnerable it can be to, you know, initiate sex or takes that for granted or punishes us for it or continually withdraws it. So I just want to name that. You know, this can be a really challenging thing for some men too, that have been in relationship and thought they were getting into a sexual relationship or something, and then they find out their partner just for whatever reason isn't comfortable with that or doesn't embrace that piece of them and then have that experience of getting kind of rejected multiple times, sustained without that being welcomed. That really kind of does a doozy on us. I think that takes some time to really unwind and then some real strength and resiliency to be able to lean back into that vulnerability with new partners who may actually be way more open to that exchange with.

Melanie Curtin: You think that's a really good point. Especially, I mean, since we're talking about sexual shame. Actually being shamed, I think is part of what you're pointing to, of a partner saying all you want is sex. Like it's. It's like actually hearing the words that you're so terrified of hearing and hearing them repeatedly and actually being shamed. You know what that does on top of. Yeah. And there is a way, I think sometimes that we tend to attract. When we haven't owned parts of ourselves, we tend to attract partners who will put it in our, you know, stick it in our face. Like all of our disowned parts are right there like a mirror. And it's excruciating. It can be excruciating totally.

Jason Lange: Like, like we tell our guys, wholeness attracts wholeness. So if we haven't completely done our work to integrate our sexual energy and power and on dissolve some of that shame, there's a good chance we're going to attract a partner who has maybe a block or something around it too. And that's just going to make it worse for both people. So the more you can own your desire, the more you're more likely to attract a partner who really likes to be desired and is into that exchange. Right.

Melanie Curtin: And the quicker you're going to flag. Wow, that felt terrible when she said that or when she did that. This doesn't feel good. And boundaries kick in once you've owned parts of yourself and it's like, oh, this is a red flag. I choose to exit now instead of, oh, I see that red flag. But maybe we can stay together for 10 years.

Jason Lange: Totally. It happens.

Melanie Curtin: All right, so as we're going to wrap up here, can you tell any men who are interested in learning more, where they can learn more about us and our program and et cetera, yada, yada?

Jason Lange: Yeah. Mel and I offer a fantastic short. It's about 40 minute free training. It's about five shifts to take back control of your love life. And you can watch that at Evolutionary Men Training. And if you dig that and what you learned there and you know, what Mel's been up to and what you've heard from me on this podcast, just follow the instructions at the end and you can talk and we'll see if we're a good fit to for you to join join our little tribe and program.