Melanie and I sat down with my wife Violet, and what started as a conversation about relationships quickly became something we probably should have talked about years ago. We found ourselves wrestling with one of those uncomfortable truths that couples dance around: what happens when one person is committed to healing and growth, and the other just isn't there yet? More specifically, we dove into what it actually looks like for women to do their own work around opening, processing trauma, and reclaiming their sexuality.
This conversation really came out of my own experience as a late bloomer. I had a partner early on who had sexual trauma, and we had a pretty okay sex life, but she couldn't orgasm. I made up all these stories about not being good enough, not knowing what I was doing. Then my next partner didn't have that history, and suddenly everything was different. That's when I realized it wasn't all on me. There's work both partners have to do independently.
We talked about how men need to learn to lead themselves first, figure out who we are and where we're going. And there's a correlate for women around learning to open, regardless of their partner's leadership. That capacity to open, especially when there's trauma in the picture, isn't something we can give our partners. They have to cultivate that themselves.
Violet and I also got into how sex is this incredible healing tool when both people have done their work. How emotion comes through during intimacy, how the heart and the cervix are linked, how important it is for us as men to hold space for all of that without collapsing or making it about us. And I'll be real with you, learning to stay present when your partner is triggered or crying during sex, that takes practice. It takes us being comfortable with our own emotions first.
The short version? Both people need their own practices, their own groups, their own work. That's what makes thriving relationships possible. And when you've both done that work, the sexual connection gives so much more space to everything else in the relationship.
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Jason Lange: If you're going to come into situations with strong presence and connection, like, and really have experiences with women, like, be prepared for emotion to come out and like to know how to be present for that and to stay with her in that, because that's a super sacred thing in my experience. And not somewhere where you want to freak out or withdraw or close because, oh my God, she's crying now. Like, did I do something wrong? Like, like, no, it doesn't. Sometimes it has nothing to do with you.
Melanie Curtin: Hey, welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. Today. We are covering a pattern that we've seen in our clients and just I think a generalized pattern that is really worth speaking to, which is just around both people in a relationship doing their work. And if you have a partner who's not doing her work, then things are going to be kind of hard. So we're going to delve into that. And I want to welcome back to the podcast Jason and Violet, my favorite conscious couple. Thanks for being here. And yeah, I guess I'm curious to hear from the two of you on this topic. You know, I think that there's a pattern that I've seen definitely in especially the divorced men that we work with, Jason, our male clients who have been through a divorce. I think there's a tendency to sort of self blame of like, it was all my fault and I failed at relationship. You know, there's a lot of sort of shame around. I should have, could have, would have, you know, somehow I failed, I should have done it better. And if I could have just shown up in this other way, you know, things might have been okay. And I think sometimes that's true, but sometimes it's an illusion. And I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to your personal experience and then the experience that you've seen in our clients around this idea of what it's like to be with a woman who's not necessarily doing her work and how challenging that can be.
Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. And this kind of sprang out of you and I did an episode on, hey, what does doing the work even meaning? And then you and Violet did a version of that for women. And this really sprang out of a specific subset of that that I've experienced personally and I've seen in some clients that is on the same continuum. It's just one specific area of it, but it's connected to everything we've talked about on those two episodes. And so where I'm coming from around this initially is so you and I, we work with men and I'm a fierce proponent of men's groups and this idea that men have to do a certain amount of work on themselves and particularly with other men. And, you know, I think that could be summed up in some sense around, you know, this idea of the masculine and men is we kind of have to learn to lead ourselves first. Like, we gotta learn who we are, what we're made of, the depth of our presence, what we're capable of and where we're going in our lives. Like, we got to sort that out ourselves. Right. We got to learn to lead ourselves. And I think there's a correlate there on the feminine side, you know, whether you're in a man's body or a woman's body around this. And it's that you have to learn to open right there. There actually has to be an ability that you go into and in yourself to learn to open regardless of your partner's leadership. Right. These things are a dance. They go hand in hand with each other. And what I had experienced, you know, sometimes in my life, regular listeners kind of know my story. I was a late bloomer, hadn't had very many partners. And my. One of my first partners had some sexual trauma. And it meant that our sex, you know, was pretty okay and pretty good, but she didn't orgasm during sex. Like, it just didn't happen. And, you know, I tried things and I brought my best presence that I could, you know, in that time, and it didn't happen. And I kind of made some stories up about that and my capability as a. As a lover. And then my partner after that was very different. She didn't have that in her background or in her or sexual trauma history at all. And so she was able to orgasm very regularly and easily. And it was like a night and day experience for me. And it kind of blew my mind. I was like, whoa. I thought I had been doing stuff wrong all this time, and it turns out, like, okay, I was. I'm fine. And with my. With my first partner, yeah. You know, as a late bloomer and a guy with not a lot of experience, a lot of it was, oh, I don't know what I'm doing right. A better lover would be able to help her orgasm. Like, essentially, it was kind of the story I made up. So for me, it was about not being enough. And then suddenly I get to this, my next partner after that, and I'm doing the exact same things, and the result is just totally different. So that was a bit of like, oh, wow, okay. So it's not always just on me. Like, there's something happening in my partners that's really important. And that was a pretty big eye opener for me. And that's something that, you know, as we work with men, on deepening their presence and their ability to lead, which includes in the bedroom just as much as it does outside in the relationship, that there has to be an awareness that even if you're the perfect lover, but your partner hasn't done some of that work, and particularly if she has some kind of sexual trauma, which a lot of women do. That's just the horrible reality of our current situation, that there may be a point you can't lead her beyond that. She has to do some healing work of her own around. And that was kind of what sparked us to have this conversation, because that's something Violet knows firsthand and facilitates with women.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, Violet, I would love to hear from you around this pattern kind of on a personal level, like your own journey. And then what you've also witnessed in the women that you coach, because a good percentage, like you said, Jason, of women have unprocessed sexual trauma. And until it's processed, I think that has an outsized, dramatic impact on a woman's sex life. Definitely. Well, I know for myself there was, like, pre being aware of my trauma, and then post being aware of my trauma. So pre being aware of my trauma, I would get triggered, but I wouldn't know why. So I would blame the guy, like, oh, quit touching me there. Or like, you know, stop. Or I'd push his hands away. Or in my first marriage, we just wouldn't be intimate. And again, I kind of. Kind of blamed him. Truthfully, in the. If I look back at it, if he was more sexually awakened, I don't know if I would have been ready. I think we kind of subconsciously chose each other because we were both really shut down sexually. And then that started to change for me, and I started to be more interested in sex. And there were a host of other factors in the relationship, but sex was one of the biggest ones of why that relationship didn't work. Once I got out of that relationship, then I wasn't in another relationship, really. That was more than a few months until a few years later. And when that happened, I got into this really weird pattern similar to with my first husband, where the intimacy would be okay in the beginning, and then after a few weeks or a few months, it would just either stop or I would completely be dissociating. And then when I got in contact with the trauma and realized that I had the sexual trauma there. It's almost like the pattern got worse for a little while because I remembered the trauma, but I was shoving it down and pretending it didn't matter. And of course, then it just kept coming up. And so in that instance, it wasn't so much that I was blaming the man, it was actually that the man was blaming me. Like, why don't you like sex? Why are you so dry? Are you not into me? And so there's just this weird shame dynamic of me blaming them in the past or them blaming me and me not wanting to look at my stuff, basically. But it kept ruining my relationships. Because I think subconsciously we know when someone is not doing the work on themselves, when they're withholding a piece of themselves, when something's just not quite congruent. And then once I started working on my trauma, at first I wasn't working specifically on my sexuality. I was just doing somatic therapy, which I think is really, really useful, and it's not enough. Somatic therapy will help you create that mind body connection so that you can say, oh, okay, this is anger in my body. I don't actually have to push the person away. I can take a deep breath and make a noise or say, wow, I'm really mad, or I'm noticing yellow in this part of my body. It just gave me a lot of tools. But then I needed to do deeper work around my sexuality with yoni eggs and other pieces. But what I noticed is that a lot more emotion came up for a while and. And then eventually that kind of subsided. And concurrent with the emotion coming up during sex specifically, you know, my body was learning how to do different things and have many different types of orgasm. And Jason held great space for me. But had I not already done the somatic work to create that mind body connection? And had I not already at least started the journey on the sexual work which I had started, but he helped me go further in. I just don't think I would have had the communication tools or the self awareness tools or the. Or the orgasmic capacity for us to have the sort of intimacy that we have now. Yeah. I'm wondering if you can go back a little bit to what it was like to be in relationship and not kind of dealing with sexual trauma, because there's sort of the before and after picture. Right. And I think, you know, a lot of the men that we work with are coming in and having had the before experience of, like, what it's like to be with a woman who has a history of trauma. And, you know, I think a lot of times a man is, like, a bit at a loss of what to do about it. Like, I don't know how to support this woman in her. In trauma. And I wonder if you can speak a little bit to. Were any of your partners helpful in terms of that? Was it just that you just needed to decide to get some help around it? Like, what was your experience in terms of being supported by the masculine in that journey in that specific part of that? Yeah, I wish I could say that I had more support, but I also think that maybe I didn't notice the support that was there because I was too wrapped up in my own stuff. You know, I had shame and all of that. I mean, I know physically in my body, I would tense up. I would, like, squint my eyes. I would maybe just kind of, like, go a little bit limp and just kind of dissociate. So there's all these physical cues. But very rarely was a man like, are you okay? And, you know, is everything fine? It was just like he was in his own world. I was in my own world, and I was just kind of trying to get through it if it wasn't a great experience or I was making up excuses for, like, why I didn't want to have sex. You know, I was overindulging with alcohol or food or other things. And then there were some times when men would. I remember particularly someone that I dated, and they. They brought up the subject. They. They brought up the subject about sexual abuse. They were like. They had the. The book of. Is it Jenna Jamison, the porn star? I think Jenna Jamison, the porn star had written a book about her journey, and they had that book for some reason, and they're like, you know, sometimes I wonder if you were sexually abused because of xyz. They gave me all these symptoms, and I was really pissed because I don't think I was ready to talk about it yet. But beyond that, I. I never really got a lot of support, and I don't know that I would have been open to it. Yeah. I'm curious now to hear from Jason in terms of. Because I think you have also previously been with partners who were survivors of trauma, but hadn't really processed it yet. And I'm wondering what your experience was as a man, and was it something that you addressed with those partners? Was it something that was just sort of unspoken and in the space? Did they disclose to you? Like, what did that look like?
Jason Lange: Yeah, at that time, I mean, I didn't have the capacity, like I knew something was up. I didn't know how to talk about it. I didn't know how to lead that conversation. I didn't know how to create a safe space to talk about that. I was more dealing with my own shame around, you know, am I not performing well or what's this mean? So I didn't do any leading back then, you know, truth be told, in terms of how that came up, because I didn't know, right. I didn't know what that would mean, how one would deal with it. I was a very different man at that time, truth be told. And I wouldn't have even known where to point someone, so to speak. You know, Now I have much more awareness in myself and, you know, by the time I had met Violet of how this stuff tends to work and how to have some more of these conversations, which can be uncomfortable, you know. But it was also one of those things that, that kind of guided part of my journey, which I've spoken about before, of knowing that I wanted a partner who was open to that, open to work and was working on themselves and had some awareness of their own traumatic backgrounds of whatever variety already and had some resources around that. So it wasn't just all on me, so to speak.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, absolutely. And I guess my sort of follow up question for Violet is, in terms of the women that you've worked with, what have you noticed? Because probably a number of the women that you've worked with have also had sexual trauma. Would you say that most of them were sort of aware that it was in their background and they were sort of like, I don't really want to look at that, I don't really want to deal with that or. Or was a lot of it unconscious until they were ready to do other work? Like, did they know it was in their background and they didn't want to look at it, or was it like repressed memories? I think is a question a lot of people have around it, a little bit of both. It's funny because I do ask about this when I do an intake call or a consult call or a discovery call. And some women, a lot of women, I'd say over half of the women disclosed, and then there's a percentage that doesn't disclose on the call. But if we decide to work together, if I invite them into the program and they also decide it's a good fit, somewhere along the lines they'll say, oh yeah, the rape that happened. And I'll say, Oh, I don't know anything about that. Like, oh, my gosh, let's talk about it. Do you need additional support? Because I'm not a licensed psychotherapist. Coaching is different. And they think that they've told me, but they realize that they never told me. And so it's something that is present in their psyche. But that's just so symbolic to me, and it resonates with me, too. Of. It's almost like when you're a survivor and you know that it happened, you think that everyone else can see that in you, and you work really hard to try to hide it. So if someone brings something up, you change the subject, or you're like, oh, well, I just need to be prettier. I need to be better in bed, or I need to make him come faster or give a better blowjob. It's like, we do anything that we. I did anything to try to deflect from it. And I think that's what happens with women in general. And I've definitely seen in my clients is I'm aware, but I'm not ready to work on it. So I'm deflecting, and then, oh, my God, I'm integrating. Like, yeah, this thing happened to me, and I've been doing jaded because I'm in your course, and I'm feeling supported by the other women. And then instead of relating from their shadow, they're relating to their shadow. And so they can hold space with the container that I create and the tools that I give them to be able to look at it differently and reclaim their power and change the narrative and literally heal from the body the ways that the vagina stores tension. And I know you've talked about that on your podcast, but just for the men that are listening, the vagina is so sensitive that sometimes a woman's G spot will literally be. It's called. It's armored. Like, her G spot is literally armored with tension, with holding, with muscular contractions. And that might lead to UTIs. It might lead to painful sex. It might lead to her just not being able to have an internal orgasm. And. And the same thing goes with the cervix, although they're very different tissues. The cervix can be numb, or the cervix can be kind of hardened, so to speak, because there's a lot of tension that a woman doesn't even realize she's carrying there because there's just not a connection, a mind, body connection. And so the reason I share that is because when women Start waking up this part of their body, literally with JDIG tools and mind body awarenesses that I teach. Then instead of compartmentalizing or deflecting from the trauma, they're able to slowly dissipate the body, the trauma, physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and even socially with community. And then as their body opens, their heart opens, their mind opens. And then they can change the way that they communicate with partners, or they can change their patterns of attraction. But even if a man has the most amazing presence and physicality and stamina and he's done, you know, pillars and all of these things, Jason, and your program, if her body is armored and if her heart is armored, she's going to find every sort of way to get out of that situation or blame you or. Because she's not, she's not ready to look at it yet. I think that's really important to slow down and highlight is that I think that for a lot of men there's sort of a narrative of I should be able to get it done, I should be able to be whatever she needs. I should be. I should be able to. I should be able to. And what you're sharing here is that if a woman's not ready to open for whatever reason, it doesn't matter how skilled the man is, it's not going to work. And when I say it's not going to work, you're not going to be able to reach a healthy, functioning, vital, sexually alive, beautiful relationship without both people being able to be embodied and to be doing their work. And I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to your own journey as a couple, because I feel like you both came in to the relationship already having done a lot of work. And what was that experience like for you to be with a partner? Because both of you had also been with partners where you either weren't doing the work yet or you were with people who weren't necessarily doing the work. Like, was it like night and day? Was it like a relief? You know, what, what was that like? And what was the journey that you, you had to go on together around being a conscious couple, you know, supporting each other in terms of sexual awakening? Because I think, as you mentioned, Violet, there was still more growing to be done for you and I would imagine for both of you around this topic.
Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can speak from my side of the court. A couple things immediately come to mind.
Melanie Curtin: Of.
Jason Lange: One, you know, a different partner I had didn't have sexual trauma, but she had some just deep rooted self esteem. Issues that, you know, were hard for her. And again, it was a point in my life I didn't really have capacity to speak it or name it or, like, without doing it in negative ways. You know, sometimes I would kind of bring it up, but it never really landed really well for her. But one thing I was really clear about is like, I can't. I actually can't give you that missing piece. Like, I tried, you know, I really tried different times, and it was just a hole I couldn't fill, so to speak, that I knew she kind of had to do on her own. And so one of the big shifts when I met Violet was that felt very different. She felt rooted in herself and grounded in herself in a way that was really trusting to me, that I trusted. And that from the get go, I knew she was involved in work and processing and growing and transformation, which was a super huge turn on to me. And then I think for me, you know, I didn't have sexual trauma per se, but I think Violet was the first partner I was able to have sex with and emotionally connect with at the same time. So, like, much more eye contact, much more actual presence while we were making love in ways that I hadn't necessarily with previous partners, where it was kind of more focused in my own little world and she was in her own little world. And that was a big shift for me. So that was a huge growth edge for me, like to kind of slow down and just be more in presence like that and have a lot more connectivity between us emotionally. And so that was my growth edge very early on with her because it was just a very different experience than what I had encountered before.
Melanie Curtin: And I just had to stop myself from shouting out when he said that me doing transformational work was a turn on spiritual boner. So hope that makes that into the episode. What I noticed with Jason, first of all. Well, two things, you know, it was simultaneous. I wanted to say, well, I really noticed the emotional connection, but I think it. It actually was. I really noticed the presence and the cock energy because he approached me at an event. Just I didn't know who he was. He knew the woman I was talking to, chit chatting with at the event. But, yeah, he approached me, he introduced himself, he, you know, got my business card. He sent me a Facebook message later saying, let's continue the conversation with coffee. Like it was. It was clear that there was a connection and I wasn't sure, you know, where it was going to go. I probably was more excited about it maybe than he was at the beginning at the end of our first date, which I said was a date, but he said was a meeting. He said, I'm taking you to dinner next week. And it was just very assertive and penetrative, and I loved it. And so he made it easy to open. But then I also brought stuff to the table, too. You know, like when we had. We actually had a pretty big. I don't want to call it a fight, but we had a very different view on things and at the time, really wanted different things out of a relationship. And we discovered that on our second date. And instead of it being a massive disconnect, even though it's painful to go through, I think we both kind of brought our A game. We both brought all the tools we had for staying present even during uncomfortable situations. And I really deepened my respect for him because he was able to be with me in my upset and was able to still hold his truth, even though it was different than mine, and still able to express his desire. Now, I wasn't able to meet that desire because I had set some boundaries just based on what I thought that I needed. And I won't get into all the details, but I think there was always this nice flow from my perspective of emotional connection, physical connection, emotional connection, physical connection, and, of course, mental connection and spiritual connection, too. But it was nice to be able to be with someone who'd done their work, but not someone who is a pushover. You know, there's a lot of people that are doing their work, but they're still in that nice guy phase. And I need someone. I can be kind of wild, so I need someone who can hold space for me. And, yeah, not let me kind of. I don't know, not let me go into my bad tendencies that I can do.
Jason Lange: And, I mean, early on, you know, there were instances where your body still got triggered, even with our connection, you know, certain times of days or just there were all different things that might trigger it. And her having some languaging around it even then was vastly different of, right, oh, it's happening. I could notice it was happening, but then she would actually be able to name it. Like, I'm feeling triggered right now. There's. There's something happening for me. And we were to be able to, you know, slow down or stop or. And kind of bring presence to that, as her healing was, because she was still, you know, doing deep, deep work when we first met. And, you know, I certainly am a firm believer, and I think Violet is too. Like, the work never stops. Right. We're always deepening, we're always healing. There's always more something, but. But that was something we're able to navigate together. And it did take practice on my part to not collapse. Like, if my partner was having a moment previous, me, I think, would have made that about me very, very strongly. And, like, what am I doing wrong versus, like, oh, okay, it's not just me. Right. There's something here that we need to bring presence, attention, and love to and that we were able to navigate together. And, you know, I think that was also made possible by our growing and deepening trust and emotional connection. Right. I think that's, you know, an important thing that Violet said for guys to know that, you know, I think it's true for all human beings, but particularly for, you know, the female body. There is a strong connection between the cervix and the heart and the emotional space. And they're linked in pretty deep ways in terms of they kind of both open at the same time oftentimes. And that, you know, if you're going to come into situations with strong presence and connection, like, and really have experiences with women, like, be prepared for emotion to come out and, like, to know how to be present for that and to stay with her in that. Because that's a super sacred thing, in my experience, and not somewhere where you want to freak out or withdraw or close because, oh, my God, she's crying now. Like, did I do something wrong? Like, no, it doesn't. Sometimes it has nothing to do with you, actually. It's historical stuff that's coming up that you get to be present for and witness and healing now. But, like, that kind of stuff will happen. And so it's important for us guys to have done some work to be grounded in ourselves, to be able to hold that space and to be comfortable feeling all that. Because it's pretty hard when you see someone weeping in front of you to not feel some of that yourself. And as I often say, if we're not comfortable feeling something in ourselves, we're going to be resistant to feeling it in someone else. So it's all the more reason, guys, for you to go inside and do your work and take responsibility for what's going on in your side of the court, to keep turning towards it and feeling it and getting comfortable with it, because that's the thing that allows you, in my experience, to be present with it in others, including sexual partners who. Right. Sex is such a powerful thing. It triggers and unlocks and unleashes, like, everything right. Attachment issues, things in our body, stored tension. Like, it's. It's an amazing, amazing healing tool to be used consciously.
Melanie Curtin: And I just want to add a few other things because that touched on so many awesome points. Jason, if you are a very present and emotionally safe man, she may get triggered with you more than another type of man. And so instead of thinking, oh, my God, I'm a bad lover, it's actually, you are extremely safe presence. Safe enough that her body can actually unwind a little bit and her nervous system can bring up some stored energy. And then to Jason's point, you want to be able to navigate that. Having the language helped a lot. And then I just want to name, too, that we both decided maybe in our first or second date, not that we were going to be together, but that sexual connection was really important. I think at one point we talked about, like, what do you want? And it was a more generic question about what do you want in your life? But at some point, it turned to past relationships, and I don't remember what date it was. Might have been that epic second date, but I had shared how I had been in a sexless marriage and I would never do that again. And I really wanted to be with someone who liked sex and was curious about sex and all of those things. And Jason shared his desires in that way too. So, yeah, I definitely got triggered sometimes in the first few years. It's not like all of a sudden, Jason is my king and my hero, and my body's just like. I mean, it does do that with him, actually, no matter what. But that was because we, you know, we've done a lot of work together. And my point with that is. I hadn't felt safe enough, probably, to have those conversations until I had been with someone more present, and then we could navigate it together. Plus, combined with the fact that not only did we have language from doing work on ourselves, we had signed up for courses, we had read books together, we had done yoni massage and lingam massage, which helped us to be present with each other and kind of not laugh about things. But sometimes, I know, for me, I felt like, God, I'm just so sick of being the broken one. Like, why am I the one who's always getting triggered? Why am I the one who's always crying? Why am I the one who's always having an issue? And why is my body shutting down and all these things? And not because I wanted Jason to have trauma, but sometimes it feels embarrassing, and so it's not a short journey, I guess. Is what I'm trying to say. It's not a short journey with yourself, and it's not a short journey with a partner, but it's really worth it. I mean, some of my favorite sexual experiences have been times where we really had that level of closeness and. And connection that comes from going through the shadow when it relates to sexuality. Yeah, there's a couple things that I think are important there, and I just kind of want to ground the conversation when you say triggered. So, for example, if you're having sex and there's a certain kind of lighting, right, it might remind your body of the trauma. It's the same lighting. And so there's this limbic response in your body of unsafety, Right? And so I'm going to use a woman's body in this case. So. And men have sexual trauma, too, and many of the men that we work with have had sexual abuse in their past. And this isn't just for women, but we're going to use women as the example here. So if a woman has trauma and something in the room, it could be the lighting, it could be a sound, it could be a song. It could be any kind of physiological reminder can send her nervous system into overdrive or into a response, a physiological response. And that might end up looking like shutdown or pain or just a sense of panic, right? It can be any kinds of things like this. And in that triggered moment, she might push him away, she might start crying. Violet, you can fill in some blanks for me here. But what, Jason, what you said, I think was really important is that what you learned to do was to not shut down in that moment and to not make it about you being bad at sex, Right? Because if in that moment she's having a response, her body is freaking out. If you also have a shutdown response, man, like, you're off to the races, right? That's. It's not going to be a good scene for anybody. But what you were describing was kind of being a team around it, so that Violet was able to say, I'm triggered, like, something's going on, like, I, you know, whatever she could do to kind of give a response. And, Jason, you also, I think it sounds like, became skilled at identifying maybe when her body was going into dissociation, when she was dissociating, and you were able to work on it together. So I'm wondering if, Violet, you can speak a little bit just to grounding this conversation and, like, what does it look like to be in that moment if you're A man with a woman who is triggered and might not be conscious of it and how you can work on that together as a team. Yeah, I'll share. From my perspective, I mean, Jason probably knows more about how to skillfully work with a woman going through the trauma because I don't know what. It's hard for me to know exactly what my body's doing. He can probably pick up on the subtle cues more than I can because I'm kind of regressing at that time. But I would say it's like there was a phase where I was unaware of my triggers. I just knew that I would drink a lot if I needed to have sex, or I would push people away, or I would find reasons to leave the relationship or judge the other person. And then there was a time where I was starting to become aware of my triggers. As in, like, oh, something is happening right now. Like, this is not normal. All of a sudden I'm in a trance state, or, oh, like, something's changed. But I couldn't really discern back why it was, what it was, like, the lighting or the specific thing. And then I got more aware of what my triggers were and was better able to name them to myself anyway. And then I would avoid the triggers. I would manage the triggers. So I remember, you know, spending lots of time in the bathroom at one of my boyfriend. Ex boyfriend, obviously his place, like, washing my face or doing whatever I was doing to, like, get ready for bed. And it was hindsight because at 11pm is when I would oftentimes get triggered right around there. And so instead of telling the partner at the time, like, oh, this is my witching hour, I just would avoid it. But then, of course, he's thinking, oh, she doesn't want to have sex with me. You know, what's. What's going on? Or what's. You know, so. And of course, I would be, like, putting on makeup because I was afraid of him seeing me if I had a zit. And, like, I just was covering a lot of different things, and it wasn't healthy, and it was not a healthy relationship. And then I got to the point where, okay, I was aware of my trigger within myself. I wasn't hiding from my triggers. I was at least able to be with my trigger and say to the person, I need a break, or this isn't feeling very good. But I was so clumsy with it in the beginning that it was really bad. Both a little bit with Jason, but also with a prior partner where I'd just be like, ah, I'm not feeling turned on anymore. And then he'd be like, oh, because of me. Horrible. And then I got more graceful in my smile. Therapist helped me with just naming, like, oh, can I take. Can we take a breath together? Or, you know, can I adjust the lighting? Like, I started to own my triggers and manage my triggers in a way that was more inclusive and less reactionary. But that takes a shit ton of patience because your reptilian brain just comes online and everything else goes out the window when you're in this trigger state. But then just to. Just to close on that. So then as I started saying, you know, to Jason, like, oh, like, can you just hold me for a moment? You can stay inside me, but just hold me. But sometimes you'd be like, oh, actually, you know, that doesn't feel right either. Or, can we just take a breath? Or can we make eye contact? Or, I'm feeling scared, or, you know, I'm sure the things that I shared were probably childlike in some ways, but it was just whatever needed to go through my body. And I think the hardest for me was to then feel anxious afterwards, like, oh, my God, is he not going to like me anymore? Or, you know, I said I wasn't. I wasn't available to have sex this morning because I was feeling in my head. Which, by the way, even if a woman is not triggered, sometimes she's just going to be in her head, and until she decides that she wants to open to pleasure in the moment, she's just going to be in her head. But if I said no, then I would feel like, oh, I'm rejecting him. And then, is he going to reject me? And it just turned into this. It could easily turn into this big thing. But we navigated a lot of those ups and downs, and he was very honest. He'd be like, yeah, that kind of sucks. I really want to have sex with you, but I'm good. I can handle myself. It's okay. But it wasn't like, oh, my God, you're the best girlfriend in the world. Like, I love you. It doesn't matter at all. Because, like, sex does matter. Sex really matters in a relationship. Anyway. I've rambled on, but what did you notice in my body when I get triggered? And then I guess the evolution of my no longer really getting triggered.
Jason Lange: I think there's a thing I noticed with you and had noticed with one or two other partners, particularly around. I think there's two versions of that. There's one, the kind of more shutdown, freeze that would happen and that was just a matter of just like slowing down and coming back into connection with each other. And sometimes that would just be the end of lovemaking. And that's it. That's okay, right? Like, that was what was appropriate for the moment and not making that personal, like I did something wrong.
Melanie Curtin: Right.
Jason Lange: Was the, I think the key I had figured out by then and was able to lean into. Like, okay, it's just stay present, just be with each other. It's like totally okay. Then there's a, you know, there's another layer to that, that something I'd certainly experienced and you know, maybe came a little bit later where sometimes then maybe the unfreeze would happen a little bit because we would reestablish connection and. And then emotion would just come through. Lots of emotion would come through. And that's something I had experienced in a much smaller scale with another partner as well. And I think noticed in Violet sometimes too, of like, like, almost like, well, is that going to ruin sex for you or like a timidness around it? Like, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, I'm so sorry. I think that's something you would say, right? I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I don't know why I'm crying right now. I don't know why I'm crying right now. And like, welcoming that is actually part of the experience, I think is one of the most important things, you know, male or female, as a lover you can do for a partner. Of like, no, that's okay. Like, let it come. Like, let it, let just welcome it all be okay with that. That's part of what the body's releasing. It's not something we have to like, get rid of, right? It's just okay to soothe that and allow those emotions to come through. And truth be told, you know, as a man, pretty rooted in my masculine. Like, that in itself was a turn on for me of like her heart really opening and just rawness coming through. Like, I think that is one of the gifts that, you know, the feminine heart can give the masculine of one. Wow, I'm being entrusted to hold the space of this with you. And that's not a turn off, ladies, for the right guy. A guy who's done his work and is aware of what's happening. Like he's, you know, for women listening, I would say part of how you can know if he's a worthy man is like, does he welcome all of you and celebrate all of you, whether maybe it's crying or Sometimes it's more like bitchy anger. Like, I've definitely got that from Violet. Like, just raw and growling and, you know, different energy coming through her body. And that, to me, that's all. I love it. Right? That's. That's the beauty of what her body's expressing in the moment. And for. For us to be able to just actually invite that out of our partners and not. Not shame them or make them shut it down or, like, but to really make it known, like, no, that's okay. Like, I welcome that. It's totally compatible with great lovemaking, in my experience.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thanks for speaking to that. You know, I actually found myself relaxing when you said that, because I think I do have a lot of judgments around what's acceptable to express and what's not. Like, oh, man, doesn't want to hear that, or he doesn't want to, you know, witness that, or. And it takes a lot of energy to sort of manage that. And so, yeah, someone was like, I welcome all of you. That would be really a game changer. And, yeah, I'm just curious to hear from Violet. Like, was that a new experience for you, being in a relationship with a man who was open to all of your expression, and what did that do for you? It was definitely a new experience for me. I mean, I think there were probably men I dated that we never got to that point because I was in a bad pattern of attraction where a nice guy in quotations, I'd, like, you know, find reasons to not go on more than a few dates, and we would never be intimate. So I kind of didn't even allow myself to have those deeper experiences, which is something I totally own. And I hadn't done my work yet, and which is why my relationship sucks. And I was attracting guys who were not good for me. But the point is that one of the guys that I had dated who was in quotations, spiritual, but not really taking any personal responsibility in his life and not doing work like Pillars is, I had told him, you know, I thought I was doing the right thing by telling him, hey, you know, I had sexual abuse. And he thought, well, are you sure we're just making that up because you, you know, remembered that when you started doing Reiki, and, like, is that really true? And so there was already seeds of doubt placed. And then during sex, when I would get triggered, instead of saying, I'm triggered, I. I would try to say, I'm triggered. I'd say, like, oh, something's coming up, or I'm triggered, or I'm feeling dry or whatever it is. And then he would say, like, what the fuck's wrong with you? What the hell's wrong with you? Why don't you want to have sex? And it was just a really explosive situation. So the next boyfriend after that, I didn't even tell him, like, I didn't tell him I was sexually abused. I didn't tell him about any of the things, but he picked up on stuff because he would say, why do you say the exact same thing every time when you orgasm? And part of it is just, it's like my kink. I just always say like, oh my God. Because that's just what I say. But. But I felt shame. He was like, say, can't you mix it up a little bit? You know? And I didn't really know how to. And so being with Jason, where he was welcoming everything, I think, yeah, there was a lot of emotion that came up, but it allowed me to have really spiritual experiences. I mean, with Jason, I was having heartgasms and I was having multiple orgasms, energy orgasms, cervical, clitoral, G spot, like all sorts of orgasms, third eye orgasms and visioning. And. And it's because my body was, was unwinding so much of that trauma. And it wasn't just all trauma. You know, trauma would come up, we would work through it, and then a new level of pleasure and connection would come through. And that made it all worth it. It's. I don't want to paint the picture that if you decide to work on your sexual work, that's it's going to be like this every time. But after we reached new levels of emotional intimacy, like moving in together and we had some bumps in the road, a lot more anger came out and a lot more like bitchiness came out. And it was kind of surprising. Whereas I think in the beginning it was more sadness, more like freeze, more trigger. I was more vulnerable and probably easier for Jason to care for me in those moments. But even the anger to his point, we worked through. And I don't think I apologize so much. I'm not as emotional during sex anymore. I think I wish I was, but maybe I'm just tired as a new mom and we're exploring other things in our sex life. But I think, yeah, I can't imagine having the relationship that he and I have and having the heart based connection we have without him holding space for all of me. Yeah, well said. I like that. Holding space for all of me. I think that's really the next frontier of relationship. You know, we talked about stage one, stage two, stage three. It feels like that stage one is pretty rigid in terms of what's, quote unquote, acceptable versus not. And stage two is sort of similar, actually. And then stage three feels really like everything is welcome and what's coming up in the moment is here. Like, let's be with it. Instead of, that shouldn't be here, or why do you have to be so bitchy? Or, you know, by the way, fuck that guy who said that stuff. I just want to put that into the space, because that's really fucked up to say to someone. Like, could you maybe say something different when you orgasm? Like, screw you, I'm having an orgasm. Let me do my thing. Why does it have to be different? Anyways, I'm really inspired by what you're describing, and I think it's really worth just highlighting, like, the incredible bounty that exists on the other side of this. You know, when we do actually hold space for one another. And when this stuff does unwind, man, it's like new heights of what's possible. And I think that's really what's called for on the planet. And the kind of healing that's called for is that. That kind of healing where whatever wants to come up comes up and out, and then there's so much grace on the other side of that and so much love and power, really. I mean, part of what you're describing with all the orgasms is tons of energy running through your body and being expressed and, you know, becoming kind of like a. Like a radiant being in the world. Like, I mean, yeah, that's just such fuel and, you know, and our sort of women's circles, Violet, we often sort of talk about the power of pleasure and how pleasure can be such fuel for life and for what we're giving in the world and what we're expressing. And I just. I'm very inspired by that, as you two are a team in that. That's really. I think my favorite part of hearing from you guys is, like, the way that you've worked together on it and been a team and. Yeah, just really been there for each other and yourselves at the same time in your relationship. It's. It's. It's really, really inspiring. So we're gonna start. Oh, go ahead. Is it okay if I just share one more thing? Please? Yeah. I also just want to reiterate, like Jason said earlier, that the work never ends, is that I stay curious about my sexuality. You know, I still read books and take workshops, and I Just don't think, oh, okay, my sexual trauma is in a good place now. And it feels, you know, it's always there, obviously, but it feels very, very healed. And so now I'm just going to coast. I'm working on it. He's continuing to deepen his practices, and we're continuing to deepen together. We bought a course together that we're going through, you know, in fits and starts because we have a new baby. But we, you know, we explored something new sexually a few weeks ago. And if we didn't have that original foundation of going through the vulnerability together, I don't know that we would be as connected and passionate of our sexuality. And I'm imagining there's people who get together, they haven't done any work, they don't have tools on it. Trauma maybe comes up, maybe it doesn't. They get bored with their sex life, but they don't know how to talk about sex. And then it's kind of like, well, we've never established vulnerability. We've never connected during sex. We've never had stuff come up. So do you want to try something new? And it's like, now, you know, so I'm able to be a lot more courageous with Jason, whether it's dressing up in sexy lingerie and dancing for him or whether it's trying something a little bit different or new, because I know that I can trust him and whatever comes up in the bedroom, like, he's got me and we've got each other. Yeah. That's really beautiful, Jason. Is there anything that you want to add there about that part?
Jason Lange: Yeah, just that, you know, it just allows so much more space for freedom and creativity on the other side, when this groundwork is laid and there's the shared reality about our backgrounds and our histories and what we've learned to work through and that. Yeah, you know, like, she still does her practices and her work. Right. Like, it's not like it just all is done with. Like, there's. There's times she's still doing yoni egg work or pleasure practices to keep deepening herself and opening herself in the same way I'm doing, you know, my men's work to keep deepening myself. And then we bring the results of that we get to kind of bring to the field, so to speak, with each other when we're. When we're intimate with each other. And that cycle just keeps reinforcing things back and forth in such a. An amazing and beautiful way. And, you know, I would say it's just it's worth it, right? Going through all this is worth it. And it's important that, you know, both partners are taking some responsibility for their healing in this aspect of doing the work. And that looks a little different, you know, sometimes for women and men in terms of how what needs to be worked through, you know, there's absolutely some overlaps on both sides, but it can be a little different. And, you know, there are things we're very strongly, we strongly believe that our guys like, they can't do with their partners. Right. There's a certain amount of work that has to happen before it and then still independently of it, even when you're in the relationship. And I think, you know, the whole point of this to some extent was that it's the same thing for your partners and for your women. Like, even when you're in relationship, Violet still has her female friends. She's still doing her practices, she's still learning new things. I still have my men's groups, I'm still doing my trainings. Like that's what it takes, I think, to create one of these thriving, you know, third stage relationships that we've talked about in on our healing journeys and that you can become allies for that. And then there's, you know, I guess what I'll kind of end that with is like having that sexual connection is. Gives so much space to the relationship because there's. The only way I can kind of, I don't know, summarize or speak to it is it's like, you know, it can be like a crunchy, grindy week or like I'm doing stuff and we're not, we're just not connecting or there's, there's tension or something and there's ways through kind of more second stage practice of, okay, we're going to do some imago therapy. I'm going to own my experience. You're going to talk when you did this, I did that. And that's all super important to have as a baseline. And then there's other times where it's just like we can just have good sex and suddenly the whole system is re energized and we're reconnected. And it's not like those problems aren't there, but there's so much more space around them that it becomes much easier to step forward with all that. And I think without that, I can only imagine how tense a lot of relationships must be to navigate some of that. And we've, you know, we've worked with clients and I've had friends in relationships that have had to, you know, deal with that. And I just think it's such a, it's actually such a gift to the relationship when you've both done this work to be able to connect sexually as well, because it's actually going to make the relationship easier, in my experience.
Melanie Curtin: And I will just add on that I think it's made us better parents because my nervous system is more regulated, believe me. I'm not a perfect mom, but I have more space in my nervous system. I trust Jason. We have a solid connection. We've gone through this healing journey together. We have great sex life, you know, outside of obviously being parents. But I grew up in a house where there was so much emotional tension you could cut it with a knife. And I can't speak to what I think, you know, their sex life was like, but it's a, it's a co regulation technique when present with each other and with yourselves. I think that's a really good description of third stage relationship. Jason, what you spoke to, because it's sort of like you go through the phase of like we kind of have to talk everything out, right? And it all, you know, everything's got to be kind of neat and tidy and whatever, that's an illusion. But there's, there's that sort of like I share my feelings and you share your feelings and it's all NVC all day, nonviolent communication. And that's an important phase. But what we're, we're speaking to in third stage relating is body to body. That a lot of energy can be moved through the body and with the body. And it doesn't necessarily have to go through the intellectualization or the headspace. It can just be my body, your body. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm pushing through it with you. And then there's just a lot more relaxation on the other side. And it's, you know, the connection is reestablished through physical practice, through sex. But it's conscious sex. It's not that we're just pushing all our shit down by having sex. It's like we're moving through our shit together with sex, you know, and we're coming back to connection with it. It's like, it's a different, it's a different quality. Right, so you people are having sex. Yeah, it's a good, like you said, like a co regulation and I find that very, very cool. So we're going to start to wrap up. We mentioned, I just wanted to, to mention a few things. That are also on the podcast, if you're interested. We talked about yoni eggs on this episode. If you are interested in that. There is a episode about that that I did with Violet, and I can't remember which number it is right now, but if you just look through the library, there's info on that. If you do have a woman partner or there's a woman in your life that you think might benefit from that practice, I really recommend that episode. And then if you are a man who doesn't exactly know what to say when a woman does disclose sexual abuse or sexual assault to you, you know, there's a lot of guys we've worked with who many times a male partner will be the first person that a woman does tell right in her life. Especially if you're getting closer. There's an episode. Episode number 32 is all about what to say if your woman was assaulted. So if you're wondering what words to say when, how to recognize dissociation, becoming more skilled in that arena, that's DM episode 32. And Jason and I and Violet referenced our program for men. And if you're at all interested in that, you can go to Evolutionary men training. And we have a free training for anyone that's interested in going deeper with us. So are there any last Burning shares that the two of you would like to impart to the audience on this topic?
Jason Lange: Yes. So Violet actually had to run and our little baby girl just woke up. So she's regulating her right now. But for, yeah, for women, if you're interested in working with Violet or if you know a woman who might need some help in her journey, she doesn't have to do that alone. Just in the same way our men don't, you know, they can. You can point them towards violetlang.com talk and she's got. You can set up a call with her. And then just the last thing I would kind of say if, if I was to offer a prescription to listeners out there that, you know, if I was speaking to women in your audience of like, hey, what. What are things to look for in a man? A good quality man, you know, I would kind of summarize it, maybe to. This is gross oversimplification, but two things, like, hey, are you in a men's group or do you have really good quality men in your life? Tell me what it's like, what they're like, and what kind of practices do you have in your life to ground yourself that you regularly participate in? And then on the flip, I would ask. If you're a man and you're connecting with a woman, what you could ask her is like, hey, yeah, what kind of women do you have in your life? What kind of resources, like women's group or trusted sisterhood? And then what kind of practices do you have for opening or working with your pleasure? Do you have a pleasure practice? That might be a little edgy to ask up front, but I think those are two really kind of powerful questions to ask potential partners. And then I would say kind of all of that then sourced in like, do you have a therapist? Because I think everyone kind of should have a therapist they're actively working with or they've actively worked with in the past and they have on call, but in combination. So like I said, if you're a.
Melanie Curtin: Man.
Jason Lange: Do you have a pleasure practice? What's your practice of opening like? And do you have good quality women in your life? And then for women out there meeting men, what kind of men do you have in your life? Are you part of a men's group? And what do you do to stay grounded? What do you do to handle tension in your body? I think would be just amazing questions and things to look out for in potential partners.
Melanie Curtin: I love that. Thank you so much and kisses to your daughter as she is regulating. D.
