There's this moment in my conversation with Melanie where I found myself admitting something I'd never said out loud before: that for years, I felt broken because I didn't want to sleep with every attractive woman I met. It's the kind of confession that cuts through all the bullshit we tell ourselves about masculinity, and apparently it struck a nerve because Melanie immediately knew exactly what I was talking about. We dove deep into how those cultural messages about male sexuality can really mess with your head, especially when you're wired differently than what society expects.
I shared some of my own experience as a late bloomer, absorbing all these ideas about what I should want sexually, and how that created shame when reality didn't match up. The truth is, there's no such thing as "normal guy" behavior. Some men want casual sex, some don't. Some need connection first, some don't. Neither is more evolved or masculine than the other.
We talked about safety, how men need to feel safe too before getting physical. That might mean emotional safety, not worrying about performance, feeling connected enough to be vulnerable, or having space to heal from past trauma. I've worked with guys who lead with slowing things down, like saying hey, I'd like to get to know you for a month before we have sex. That kind of leadership actually creates better intimacy down the line.
The other piece we covered was around polyamory versus monogamy. In some circles there's this idea that being okay with multiple partners is more evolved, but that just doesn't work for everyone's nervous system. For me, monogamy is what creates safety. That's not less than, it's just what's true for my body and attachment style.
The shift comes from owning your truth. What you need, what works for you, what's happening in your body. That honesty is actually what most partners respond to, not the performance.
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Melanie Curtin: The other thing I really liked that you said is the leadership around. I think that was so sexy, what you said about a man leading and saying, like, I would like us to go slow. This is my preference. I think it builds a hotter connection. I think it makes me feel safer. I would love to hear from you what makes you feel safe in a sexual connection. Like a man opening up that conversation and owning what he wants around. Going slow feels really good. Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. Today, we are talking about, is there something wrong with me if I don't want to have sex with a lot of women? And I'm glad to welcome back to the podcast. Jason. Thank you for being here.
Jason Lange: Glad to be back. What's up, everybody?
Melanie Curtin: So this is a topic I've been wanting to do for a little while because I've noticed that it's come up a few times with several of our clients. And I guess I just wanted to discuss sort of what's. What surrounds it and then kind of normalize it a little bit. So I think that there's kind of an expectation that men want to have sex with women all the time, and that if sex is available, they should want it, like, anytime, anywhere, any place, with anyone. And I don't actually think that's true, but I would love to hear from you, Jason, and what your experience has been around this, especially kind of growing up, because I feel like it's when, like, boys and young men, especially teenagers and everything, are sort of trained or indoctrinated into this concept. And I'm wondering what that was like for you and how that unfolded as you kind of grew into a man.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think, you know, a large part of this just stems from some cultural conditioning we certainly get as men that, you know, starts with some pretty common archetypes in the media of the horny man and the man that just, you know, wakes up next to someone and doesn't know what happened. And just this idea that, you know, men are always going for sex and that the idea of what being, at least in our culture here in the US that, you know, what makes a strong man or a good man or a powerful man is a man that's had a lot of sex in a lot of sense. Right. He's successful if he has had many partners, because that means he's on top of his game, so to speak.
Melanie Curtin: He's got a lot of notches in his belt.
Jason Lange: Notches in the belt. Right. That's definitely one that he can brag about or he can tell stories about or he can talk about to his friends. Um, and I think that's all pretty much true in terms of the messages a lot of us got. You know, I definitely got some of that as we've talked about previously as a, as a late blooming virgin. That part of what made me uncomfortable about that was the messages I had absorbed about, oh, I should have had sex by now, I should have had multiple partners by now. And if you haven't, there's something wrong with you because men want to have sex and men want to have a lot of sex with, with, with anyone and be non discriminant about it to some extent. And so for me, that, you know, that was something that was definitely kicking around inside, you know, particularly in my unwillingness to talk about my lack of experience as we went into on that previous episode, because, you know, I was given this kind of idea of what was supposed to happen and it hadn't happened for me. So I was like, oh, well, there's, there's something wrong. I feel shamed about that. Even though in the end it just turned out, you know, I'm not a guy that wants to have sex with everybody. Pretty pretty straightforward in that regard. And that, you know, one thing beyond my personal experience, I think that had this fresh in conversation between you and I was sometimes we have men coming to us, that kind of question, like, is there something wrong with me if I don't just want to have sex with everyone? And in particular, I think what that often shows up with is like just having casual sex or one off sex or sex with people that they're not particularly connected to and that just like I had absorbed some of those messages. Some of the reason that question is coming up is because there's an expectation or, well, don't normal guys want that? There's this idea that there's something called the normal guy and normal masculine behavior, which, you know, just isn't true.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think that there's this interesting culturalization, like you said, that happens. And I just want to call out in particular sports teams and other sort of groups of young men that kind of like culturize guys. And I remember reading a story recently about a Texas, I think he was a football player. But it was something where it was basically like a bunch of guys realized that they were all posturing for each other, but it wasn't actually how any of them genuinely felt. So the way that they would act at home or with friends that were girls, I'm going to say girls instead of women, because these are teenagers. But they sort of all started to realize that when they were one on one conversations or when they were talking to other people, they showed up really differently than they did in the locker room or around each other. So they were the same people. But they were acting this way because they thought that they should. And it ultimately ended up being. Can be really damaging actually. And I guess I just wanted to name that explicitly because I do think that, you know, a lot of those archetypes you mentioned are, you know, in movies it's like the jock or the whoever and he's successful with girls and he's generally unfeeling, uncaring, not connected to his heart. He's, you know, there's this association with like being a man means not caring and being sort of cold in a way or calculating when it comes to girls and using girls. And the fact is that I think a lot of the men that we work with are, aren't built that way. And I think actually most people are not built that way. And you actually have to do something to shut down your heart because it's not sort of like we're talking about normal. But I think, you know, if you are developmentally raised by people that are attuned, you are going to have a heart that's, that's open and available and wants to connect. And if you don't feel connected or you feel disconnected or. For example, a couple of guys have mentioned like a woman was really, really drunk and maybe coming onto them and they were sort of like, I don't really want to do this, but I feel like I should. Like, I don't really want to do this, but I feel like I should. And is there something wrong with me if I say no to sex because I'm a guy, I should say yes. And there's this pressure that I feel like does sort of come from that younger experience or like high school, like indoctrination even if you weren't in the locker room. Right. There's that feeling of this is what it means to be a man in this culture. And it's in movies and it's in television and it's just, it's in this sort of like water. And I, I really feel for, for men in that, in that way, because I don't think that's something that women struggle with. We women struggle with lots of other things. But that sort of sense of like, is there something wrong with me if I don't want to have sex with this person? That I just met at this house party and don't really know that well and don't really feel that connected to. But she's sort of, like, coming onto me. And so I feel like I should. You know, what do you think is, like, have you had that experience? And can you speak a little bit to that experience of literally, sex is sort of being presented or offered and a man is sort of like, oh, shit, I have to. I feel like I have to do this, otherwise I'm not a man.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. I think there's the. I certainly had that experience with some partners, you know, where I was drunk or they were drunk, and it just didn't, you know, didn't feel right. And I could tell. Get a sense too, like, I'm not really here, so this probably isn't going to be a good experience for one. And then. Yeah, I think a big part of it to some extent is, you know, I've had that energy come to me. Either someone was under the influence or I was under the influence, or it was just someone I wasn't attracted to. It was just someone that I didn't feel that reciprocal energy with and. Right. It gets kind of complicated because then, you know, for someone like me that tended to live in scarcity around intimacy and connection, there was like a, oh, well, should I. Because what if it never happens again? Or maybe, you know, I'd be dumb to pass this up and, you know, I never did in those instances. But that's part of the calculation, I think that kind of goes through and, you know, will I regret not doing it later? Can I trust my gut or impulse here? And then I think there's that, you know, it kind of becomes the double. A bit of a double bind in that there's just the uncomfortableness of, you know, when something isn't reciprocal and having to, you know, kind of let someone know that. Yeah, like, that's. That's just not, you know, that's never particularly fun or easy for either party. But then on top of that, there, you know, there can be hints that I've certainly heard stories from guys and, you know, I didn't have a ton myself, but maybe just a little bit of, like, well, then there must be really something wrong. Like, there must be really something wrong with me, like, from the woman's perspective, because guys are supposed to just want it. And so, like, wow, you really. Like, something's wrong with you or something's wrong with me. Like, there's a kind of extra layer on top of that that makes it Almost a little more uncomfortable, I would say. And it was definitely something that made me uncomfortable. That was one of the. As someone that was used to chasing. The first couple times I had someone pursue me, I didn't know how to navigate that and kind of just froze. Which is something that some of our men have definitely experienced before as well, of like, wow, what do I do with this? Um, because a. It's triggering just stuff in my nervous system. Independent, you know, based on my history of touch and intimacy and then not knowing to navigate. Like, yeah, how do you. How do you say no in a nice way? And does that mean I'm okay like, that I don't want it?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I just wanted to normalize that because I've definitely been in scenarios where I'm sort of like, why isn't he making a move? Like, I've made it really obvious, and he's not, like, pursuing me or he's not trying to be sexual with me. And it's been confusing for me. And in some cases, I think that he was just not interested. But in some cases, I think there was some of that freeze going on where it was sort of like he didn't know exactly what to do, or I literally think he didn't necessarily feel safe being sexual. And so I was sort of left with like, okay, well, I guess I'm gonna go now. Like, I don't really know what else to do. But I did want to also normalize the. The judgment part. You know, I definitely. I was raised in this culture, too, and there's a part of me that has been in scenarios and been like, what's wrong with you? You're a man. You're supposed to want sex. You're supposed to want sex all the time. You're supposed to fill in the blank. And I'm conscious and I'm aware and I'm, you know, a coach and all of that. And there's still that, like, it's, like, detritus or, like, old, like, beliefs that are just sort of in there because of the culture. And I think I feel really lucky to have interacted with so many men and really gotten a sort of behind the scenes, like, heartfelt sense of what it's like to be a man. Because now I'm much more like, oh, he's just not interested, or he's tired tonight, or, like, you know, it's less about me. But I do think that there's, you know, that judgment still exists like that. That's really, really real of like, well, you're A man, you're supposed to want sex. You're supposed to want sex all the time with anyone. Like, you're supposed to always be ready for it. You're supposed to always be able to get hard. There's just all of these messages that aren't necessarily made explicit, but that's part of why we're doing this podcast, because they exist. They're there in the background. And it can be really kind of stressful to navigate as a man and feel like, yeah, there's just. There's something wrong with me if, like, this is available and I'm not taking it. And I really appreciated what you said, too, about scarcity, because I think that's another really important layer of, like, perhaps a man kicking himself afterwards and being like, why didn't I? You know, we've heard that from guys many times of, like, yes, in the scenario. And, you know, she was, like, throwing herself at me, and I didn't do anything, and I don't really know why. And. And it seems hard sometimes for those guides to sort of let themselves off the hook and be like, yeah, I didn't want to. That's why I didn't do it. I didn't want to. Or I wasn't attracted to her, or I was physically attracted to her, but I didn't really feel emotionally safe. And that's something I was hoping you could speak to a little bit, because I feel like that's the unsaid thing that the nervous system is trying to kind of express for the man is like, I don't actually feel safe here. I don't feel safe with this person or this scenario. And the freeze response comes in to kind of stop the person from doing an act that might feel unsafe to them. So can you speak a little bit to. Because we often talk about safety, physical safety for women, but this feels more like an emotional safety for men around this.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. And safety is super key and important. And in the same way, safety can be related to, you know, biology for the feminine and for women in terms of their ability to open. I think it is with men way more than a lot of men in the culture realize that, like, we need to feel okay and safe and which sometimes goes, you know, comes down to, like, feeling connected enough that I don't feel an expectation of I have to be a perfect lover or perform a mate like that. It's okay if I don't kind of know what I'm doing or if it doesn't go quite right that you're not going to laugh at me or wonder or what's wrong if I can't get hard? These different, huge different layers are on there. Or what if you find out I don't have a lot of experience, and then I have that worry going on. Is that safe for me? And then, you know, what if I don't know what to do? Like, obviously, it can start to just bring up a lot of stuff in our nervous system, which is, you know, I think that safety is actually the energy around that. Safety is actually fairly present with a lot of men. I mean, a lot of guys I know, particularly the. That kind of have histories, like me, myself included. You know, our first experience was under the influence, like, was with alcohol, which kind of helps turn off some of that part of our nervous system, for better or worse. Like, I'll just not think about it that way. Liquid courage, as they call it. But I think it's super important that there's the emotional safety of just like, hey, this is new, slightly vulnerable energy for some of us in our nervous systems, that. So wanting to have a little connection and just feeling okay with our partner. And, you know, like, I know who she is. She knows who I am. I think another big one for. For a lot of the guys we work with is there's no question that it's a mutual feeling, right? So sometimes, yes, there's lots of energy coming our way, but sometimes it's not super clear yet, and we don't want to, like, force the situation. So we kind of hold back a little bit, right. Because we haven't talked about it or we haven't had a, you know, discussion around, what are you looking for? What am I looking for? So, you know, some of us men, I think, want to have, like, a little bit of connection around that of, like, yeah, I'm interested and you're interested. I like you, you like me. Okay. We can, you know, we can kind of move forward in this regard. And for a lot of men, too, I think some of the safety just comes from previous experiences and unresolved trauma. A lot of times from previous relationships. I have found that shows up in uncertainty about, do I want to do this or not? And often will show up. While I'm by no means an expert on this, it's definitely something we engage with our men around in different types of ed of, you know, like, my body literally isn't getting erect, so I can't engage, which then can bring up all kinds of shame just from the physical Level.
Melanie Curtin: Right.
Jason Lange: Because guys are supposed to be able to get hard all the time, ready to have sex anytime. And when that's not the case, that can bring up some deep, deep uncertainty and self esteem issues, I think in a lot of us. Mental health. And like you said though, I think, you know, while there's definitely, definitely physical causes to ed, particularly if, you know, you're a younger man or something and something's going. Oftentimes I would say there is something emotional going on, your body's protecting. Right. It doesn't feel safe, you don't feel safe. And it doesn't necessarily mean that the partner you're with is unsafe, just that the. Right. There is maybe some previous trauma that hasn't been healed from another relationship. Many men have sexual trauma of their own from when they're kids way more than guys talk about or the culture talks about or There just hasn't been that, that safety of resonance yet in terms of like, oh, okay, I feel good with you, you feel good with me. We can talk about things and to some extent, if it's okay if I can't perform or I come too soon or something, like, I'm not gonna be mocked. Like, I feel safe in that we can just kind of explore this connection for what it is in the moment.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, that's the thing that I heard the loudest was like fear of being judged and fear of being shamed and laughed at. And I think that's the. Yeah, I imagine there's just, it's. Sex is so interesting in terms of like man, woman, male, female, sexual is interesting because there's this, you know, inherent imbalance. And what I mean by that is women don't have to perform in the same way that men have to perform. There's a physical difference, like physiological difference in the actual act of intercourse. Not necessarily oral sex or like foreplay and stuff like that, but it feels like our culture and I think porn really reinforces that intercourse is like the thing and it's the act and it's. There's just so much around it and there's this physical thing that has to happen on the man's side for him to feel like he's doing it right. And that's again reinforced by porn and all this stuff. And the truth is that doesn't exist for women. There's no thing that a woman has to be able to do to, quote, perform or like do it. Right. And the only possible equivalent is getting wet. But you can use lube, so you can, you know, there's sort of ways around it. But, like, a man's either going to get hard or he's not. And I think there's so much pressure around that. And I would imagine if I were. If I were a man, that what you just said really would make a difference to me, which is like, is this woman safe? Is she going to mock me? Like, is she going to humiliate me? Am I going to be humiliated? And that might not be a conscious thought. It might not be conscious. Maybe you'll be conscious of it. And I think that's part of why I want to do episodes like this, is to raise awareness and consciousness around it. But even if you're not consciously aware of it, if your body is feeling tight and anxious and shut down and constricted around that possibility, it's probably not going to be easy for you to get hard, right? Like, the actual energy isn't going to be flowing. The blood, the excitement, the. All of that stuff. If you're really, really scared, if there's some part of you that's really scared of being humiliated, then that's not gonna be. You know, that doesn't set you up for sexy time versus if you actually have gotten to know someone and you do feel safe with them and you feel accepted. You know, you've had a few experiences where you felt accepted, you felt heard, you felt just resonance. Like, we click. We get along really well. You know, it feels good with her. It's probably gonna go better. So it's sort of natural and normal. And I think the opposite of what we're taught in terms of men and sex, it's the opposite, which is that, you know, yes, there are some men who are cut off from their hearts. Absolutely. There are lots of men who are cut off from their hearts and can just have sex with anyone and not care about it. But to be perfectly honest, the guys we work with, they. They are connected to their hearts. They are good guys. They want to do the right thing. They want to be healthy men. They don't want to be the toxic masculine. So. And there's a ton of those guys. Like, that demographic is huge. I think it's bigger than all of the men that are cut off from their hearts. I really do. And for that population, it's like, there is nothing wrong with you. That's not. It's not just normal. It's like. It's commendable, I guess, is what I would say. It feels like it's healthy that you want to be connected to your partner. It's healthy that you want to know her and have her know you before you have sex. And I'm just wondering, you know, in terms of the guys that we've worked with, what have you noticed as they've grown about how they've sort of been able to engage with this topic differently.
Jason Lange: In at least a few. I think they've actually been quite empowered when starting to date someone new, when they actually lead the conversation and say, hey, I'd like actually to get to know you for a month, just not have sex beyond the table. Some in particular that have had some traumatic experiences in their youth or with previous relationships that have maybe gotten into things too fast in the past by moving it towards physicality. There's at least a few who have really had a pretty big game changer in just terms of like, yeah, actually we can just go slow. And what that's going to allow us to do is to build that emotional intimacy and see if that connection's there. And if it is, then I know I'm going to have a better experience with you sexually and vice versa a lot of times. And then for others, yeah, it's just realizing that, oh, it's okay to not want that to be the most important thing you go for right away. And that it's also okay if you just want to get into a relationship and don't want to play the field and don't want to explore and you're just the type of guy who, yeah, just knows like, yeah, I just want one partner and I just want to do that. I think has been empowering for a lot of guys to realize that's totally okay and to also realize that they don't have to perform on demand all the time and that it's totally normal for guys to sometimes not have the energy or not be able to get it up or just need, you know, sometimes we just want to cuddle too. That's a real thing. Sometimes we're just very actually happy to just skin to skin get some cuddle and not to have to have sex. I think for some of us, the only way we know how to get there is to have sex first. So there's this kind of instead of just like, yeah, actually I would love to just spend the night with you and you know, hold each other, if that's okay. You know, and it totally is. I think one other area that I'll just speak to that's this is just a very small subset but that I know something I've had to, you know, speak towards and Feel out a little bit, particularly for those in the more, like, transformational world in community is this isn't everywhere by any means. And for some people, this totally works. But there can be. I've experienced a certain energy of around, like, well, polyamory or multiple partners is more evolutionarily, like, powerful. You shouldn't have to deal with jealousy. If you have jealousy, it's because there's something you need to work on inside yourself, which there's some real power there and engaging some of that energy. But I think for some people's nervous systems, it just doesn't work. That's just not the right medicine. And there's nothing wrong with them. And what works best for them is just a monogamous, committed, sexual relationship. That's totally what worked best for me in my nervous system. And I had to, you know, navigate that. That, like, oh, wow. Yeah. That is actually what I feel the most comfortable with. Otherwise, the way my attachment wounds work in my body, it just. I'm not the kind of guy that can, like, where's my partner? Why? Who am I going to be with? What's it going to be like after? Like, just doesn't work for me. And I think for a lot of guys, being okay with that is really important. That, yeah, for some people, that totally works, and that's okay. And they're wired that way and it's great. But not everybody's wired that way, and that isn't what's best for everyone. You know, some of us just like being in a partnership and kind of doing more the serial monogamy thing. And it doesn't matter, you know, how many partners you've had, so to speak. I think it's just going deep with the partners you do have. And at some point, you know, what works for you and that could be one partner. Like, there's nothing wrong with that.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I. I'm glad that you touched on that. I think that's really true. And I do think that there's, you know, in the consciousness communities, there's judgment. There can be judgment around either way, like a judgment of monogamy or judgment of poly. And I. I just appreciate that lucid sort of landing and like, yeah, this is what works for me. This is what feels good in my body. Feels good in my partner's body. There's a lot of alignment. There's a lot of resonance. You know, I think that the discussions around opening up a relationship or poly can lead to a lot of growth. They can also sometimes lead to trauma. So it's not an either or. It's not. It always leads to trauma, or it always leads to growth. It's. Let's keep our hearts and minds open here and see how this is. Because, like you said, it's not a fit for everyone. And it's almost like, you know, there are certain professions that are just like, that's not a fit. That's a fit for this person. Great fit for them. They have a great time. They serve really well. It's wonderful. And it just doesn't work for someone else. The other thing I really liked that you said is the leadership around. I think that was so sexy, what you said about a man leading and saying, like, I would like us to go slow. This is my preference. I think it builds a hotter connection. I think it makes me feel safer. I would love to hear from you what makes you feel safe in a sexual connection. Like, a man opening up that conversation and owning what he wants around. Going slow feels really good. And I also want to reiterate, we have a number of men that have gone through our program who are survivors of sexual abuse themselves. And I just want to normalize that because I've worked with multiple men who have gone through sexual abuse, either as a child or a teenager. And I just want to normalize that. If that's you, there's nothing wrong with you. You know, you can have a thriving sex life. Like, I've worked with multiple men who've had a bunch of healing around that and are in thriving partnerships now. So just want to normalize that. And part of what I like about that leadership, too, is, you know, you spoke to this a little bit, but I would imagine if I were a man and I led around that, I was like, I want us to go slow. I like you. I want to see what's here. I would love to cuddle. I would love to do, you know, anything from the waist up. And just like, let's just feel that out and slow it down and build something. I would feel really safe with that man. It would feel to me like, wow, this guy knows what the hell is going on with himself. He's aware, he's connected. You know, he's willing to lead this conversation. Like, it would make me feel so safe and impressed and like, yeah, it just feels like there's something really, really powerful. I remember working with a man who he was talking about how his penis was a little bit shy at first, and he was like, yeah, I feel anxious around being sexual with a woman any Anytime that comes up, because I know I'm not gonna be able to get hard right away. It just isn't something that happens for me. And I was like, well, maybe you could just tell her that, you know, maybe you could just say, like, I'm really excited to be sexual with you. I find you very attractive. I'm really, really excited. And I just need you to know, like, my guy's a little shy and might not get hard right away. Doesn't mean I'm not attracted to you. I am. Just needs a little time. But don't worry, we'll get there. It's going to be great. And I just felt like there was so much. He had so much more space around it when he was like, oh, I didn't know you were allowed to, like, you know, say that. I didn't know you were allowed to totally before the act. And I feel like that's something that, you know, no matter what you have going on as a man, there are women that are going to accept you, and there are women that are going to be able to hold space and really, like, love that you can express that. So as you own it and as you become comfortable with it and you share it up front, that's leading. Leading doesn't mean you have to have it all together all the time. That's not what leading means. And I'm curious, in your journey, as we sort of wrap up here, how do you feel like you've grown in terms of what leading means? Because I would imagine when you started, you maybe felt leading means, oh, I have to be perfect and sort of like, now. What does it mean to you?
Jason Lange: I mean, I think it's kind of our go to. It's just kind of sharing my truth and then opening up a conversation around it before, you know, sometimes before she does. Right. Just being able to name what I want or what's going on or what I'm feeling. And then having that conversation, I think is just, that's good leadership. That's just a lot of good masculine leadership. It's. It's not necessarily, I know where we're going, or here's the answer. It's, hey, here's something I'm noticing. Let's talk about that. Noticing in my experience, maybe noticing in your experience. And that's really what it comes down to. And just, you know, the shift we work with a lot of men in our program around is just being okay, owning your truth and what you need and what works for your body and your nervous system, and that usually that's all the difference is, right, that me being okay with what I need is really oftentimes what makes my partner okay with it. And if my partner's not okay with it, I've just gotten incredibly important feedback about whether or not this is the right partner for me. But a lot of times the, you know, the things we think, I can't share that. Right. I can't share that. I might not get it up the first time. What kind of makes that go off the rails sometimes in some of the interactions, you know, I've had, or men we've talked to have had, is when they get closed around it and can't speak to it or get embarrassed or feel shame and kind of shut down. That's actually what is hard on the connection. Not that, oh, my God, I'm so attracted to you right now, and I'm having a hard time getting hard, but I really want to be here with you, like in just kind of being okay with it in that sense. There's still tons of room for connection there. And a lot. A lot of women and a lot of partners are totally cool with that. Like, I get it. Oh, yeah. You don't have to, you know, be on all the time. And it's really just our ability to kind of be okay with our state and just share that in an open way and keep the conversation going and let her know where we're at, what we're wanting, that can just so totally change things.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think it also makes it in that scenario, I then feel safer as a woman to share what's happening for me so that the leadership, like you said, of, like, oh, you went first. You told me something. I can now tell you something. And it is a virtuous cycle.
Jason Lange: Absolutely.
Melanie Curtin: So we're going to wrap here, and if you are interested in sort of going deeper, Jason and I have a presentation. Jason, can you let them know where to find that?
Jason Lange: Yeah, if you just go to my website, Evolutionary Men training. That'll have everything you need to watch a really cool, powerful training that Mel and I created and some steps afterwards if you'd like to get in touch with us.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. It's how to take control of your love life. And we're pretty excited about it. So Evolutionary Men Training.
