104: What does it mean to “do the work”? | Dear Men

Jason Lange: You know, the great thing about relationship is it's someone that can trigger us and someone we feel safe with simultaneously. Right. A lot of times a lot of our acquaintances or relationships are either people that just purely trigger us, AKA a lot of family sometimes, or are just pure safety, like our therapist. You know, it's pretty rare our therapist is going to go and trigger us, but in relationship we kind of have both, like, wow, this person cares about me. I love them.

Jason Lange: Hello. Hello.

Melanie Curtin: And today we're going to be talking about what does it mean to do the work? Quote, unquote, do the work. This is something we talk about in a lot of our episodes, and I've gotten a few questions about, like, what. What does that actually mean? So I wanted to just go over what we mean by it and maybe other people in our community, because it's a pretty common phrase, and I think it's sort of core, really sits at the heart of everything we talk about terms of growth and expansion and wholeness and, you know, coming to your power as a man or as a woman or as a couple. It's all sort of related to doing the work. So. Yeah. So I would love to just hear a few of your initial thoughts, Jason, and then we can kind of go from there. What does it mean for, let's say. Let's just say a man, because this podcast is for men. What does it mean for a man to be doing his work?

Jason Lange: Yeah, so I come pretty preloaded with this one, which is great. So part of my background is in this thing called integral theory. And just very simply how I'd break down the work is this idea that we have to wake up, grow up, clean up, and show up. And really, just what that means, in my mind is the first step when we say do the work, like, what does that mean? Means to kind of just become aware of, like, what's happening in the moment and how we're showing up in it. You know, this is really the first step to any kind of change, is just we got to become, like, aware of how we're impacting others, how we're showing up on a date, you know, the tension we're holding in our body, whatever that might be. So there's that first thing of just like. It's kind of, you know, like, guys, we love metaphors. So it's you know, taking the red pill from the Matrix and like, oh, my God, wow, this thing is happening, right? I'm not getting dates because of this reason. Sometimes it's as simple as that. Just like waking up to it is the first step, I would say, in doing the work. And then there's this idea of growing up, which is like, you know, once you become aware of a pattern, that's awesome and it's incredibly important and it's not enough, like, it's not enough to actually change it, right? There's the embodiment piece that you and I work so much with our guys on the actual transformational piece of. Just because I know about a pattern doesn't mean I have the capacity to actually make different choices in the moment yet. And that's where practice takes place. Like actually practicing a new skill, practicing a new way of being, and kind of putting in the legwork, right? Like, I can decide I want to lose 20 pounds. Awesome. I've decided I'm committed, but then I actually have to go do the work, which, which takes place over time. You know, I think that's a really important thing to anchor in, particularly to the growing up piece is it takes time. Like, it takes going out on dates. It takes good experiences, having bad experiences, learning things, iterating, getting, getting, getting, getting things more into our body over time. So. And then just the last two pieces, and this is just a short kind of shotgun summary, are then, you know, cleaning up, which is this idea of, of healing. Like, okay, I'm aware I'm trying some new things, and yet still I notice whenever a woman doesn't text me back, I have a mini panic attack, like, what's going on? You know, I get really anxious or I assume the worst. And oftentimes that has something to do with, you know, old injuries or traumas we had from generally our family of origin or growing up or previous relationships. So cleaning up is this idea of, wow, there's patterns that live in my nervous system that I learned generally for good reasons. Like, I learned them to try to survive and make my way through the world so that, you know, at one time they were things that were beneficial to us and that they helped us through moments and times that were maybe overwhelming for us then, but now they become slightly more like limitations. So that's, that's the cleaning up, the healing part, you know, and that's the therapy, that's journaling. That's all the different modalities of body work and somatic experiencing and network and all the different things, you know, we often recommend our guys do in tandem with everything we have them do. And then there's the showing up piece, which is, you know, actually being in relationship. So, you know, you can do all this stuff alone, but at some point you actually have to engage with others and be willing to get clear and direct feedback around how they're experiencing you too. Because our self image isn't necessarily always incredibly accurate. So coming into relationship and showing up in dynamics is super important. And so when you put those four things together, in my mind, you're doing the work, meaning you're actually doing the work. To become more whole is the language you and I often use. Being able to relate to to people from a more whole place in our hearts where we're doing much less unconscious reacting and much more conscious responding.

Melanie Curtin: Oh, I like that. I like that framework around the sort of steps of it. And when I was, you know, thinking about prepping this episode, one of the realizations I had was that to me, doing the work is kind of about two things that maybe track to like step one and two, like you said in steps three and four. And that's sort of like cleaning up the past. And you pointed to that. So, you know, for example, I had. My mom had borderline personality disorder. And so she was. I had a lot of like emotional engulfment. Like I needed to. The way that I kept myself safe was like, don't ever piss off mom. Like never ever, ever, ever piss off mom. Like, do whatever she says. Like follow all her rules. You know, don't speak up for what you need. Like, just follow the rules. Because she would come at me with overwhelming force if I didn't. And so my nervous system learned to like, don't speak up for what you need. And that was like a big pattern that I need to clean up because it doesn't really work in adult relationships. What would happen is I wouldn't speak up for what I needed and then get passive aggressive and resentful that the person wasn't giving me what I needed. But I couldn't really push boundaries or like do anything. And so the, you know, you mentioned like the awareness piece. I came into realizing, you know, becoming aware of how I had been raised and what she was like, and the impact that had on me and then sort of cleaning that up. And that took a lot of practice. Like you said, the practice bit of like, how do I set a boundary? What does it feel like? Feels like death to me, like I'm going to die. Or like the person is going to attack me. Yeah. So even, you know, as we're going through this, I'm asking, you know, people I live with like to wash their hands when they come through the door, especially if they've gone out. And it feels like. Like there's a part of me that's afraid I'm gonna say, like, would you do this? This is a request that I have that they're gonna say, well, fuck you. No, I'm not gonna do it. And how dare you ask me that? How dare you come at me with a request. Like, I keep expecting people to react the same way that my mom did. And a lot of bravery and courage for me to actually speak up for the things that I need and want. And the more I need and want them, the higher the risk feels. Right. So there's. Right. It's like, if we really need to want it, it's really scary. If it's like a moderate request, it's somewhat scary. But that feels like. Yeah. Like the awareness, like you said, of the pattern and then the willingness to like, make different choices about it. And I would say all of the somatic therapy that I have done and continue to do is part of what helps me clean up. The cleaning up, clearing out the re patterning of the nervous system. You know, there's a lot of modalities. Like you mentioned, you and I both received network spinal analysis. There's also somatic experiencing emdr. You know, there's a lot of different modalities. But what I would say is that what has helped me having mentors for the cleaning up. So whether that's a practitioner who's holding space for me or a book that I've read, you know, I read a book about borderline called Stop Walking on Eggshells that really helped me tremendously. And there were some online support groups that I joined at the very beginning when I was individuating from. Like, I say that I broke up with my mom around 25 years old. Like, I set boundaries and I, you know, moved into a different way of being partly because I had some. Some mentorship and support and. Yeah, yeah. So I guess to me it feels like that's like kind of like part A and then part B is to me is art expression. Like whether that's writing a song or writing a poem or any kind of artistic expression. And I. I have a background in working with survivors of sexual abuse. Mostly boys and men, but also girls and women. And I lived in New York City. And one of the things I heard Repeatedly was the necessity of both. Right. Both therapeutic modality, but also the art. So art is where I think we metabolize a lot of our human experience and kind of digest and then produce something beautiful and graceful to share with others. And. But there's something magical and alchemical that happens there. There's something about art that it processes. So I don't know how to describe it, but again and again, I heard from survivors, especially the ones that were thriving, that they needed the therapy, they needed the clearing out, and they also needed to produce newness and hope and grace, and they needed to dance, they needed to do watercolor, they needed to, you know, start skateboarding. You know, like, artistic expression can be anything, you know, that we're doing with our bodies and our minds and our hearts. It doesn't have to look a certain way, but there's something about that. It feels like a part A and a part B, and they kind of work together almost like the masculine and feminine to kind of help us along our path. So to me, you know, doing the work is. It's holistic, but it's like having our attention on. Yeah, like you said, coming to wholeness and everything that it takes to do that, which is actually quite a lot.

Jason Lange: Totally. And it's. It's, you know, a large part of it, too, in a good way, is just taking responsibility, right, for who we are and how we show up in the world. You know, that. That first step to kind of waking up and becoming aware, that is often very related to. Related to the cleaning up. You know, there's this concept of shadow work that I do and most of us do in this type of work of, you know, becoming aware of the parts of ourselves or the ways we act that we're not aware of. Right. It's hard for us to see our own shadow. And that's where working relationally is so important. Having a coach, having a therapist, having a strong community that can help you start to see the things you can't see because you've been so identified with them that for so long. And when we do those two things in tandem and start to see those patterns, that's the first step then to being able to make different choices about it. Right. And if we haven't even taken responsibility for doing that, you know, we kind of. It's very easy to get into just to very stuck places, right. Of like, I just don't know why. Why can't I get past a first date with a woman, right? Like, they're just women. I don't know, you know, this is something I hear from guys a lot of times, and they haven't quite started the journey of doing the work yet, but when they do, they realize, wow, oh, it turns out I carry a lot of anxiety in my body, or I have a really hard time making eye contact, or I'm constantly underestimating myself. And, you know, these are things that are playing out in real time with every relationship, with every connection they have. And that doing the work is kind of stepping on the path to become aware of those things and then take responsibility and get the help you need to change them. And then, yeah, I think it's absolutely crucial that, you know, the deeper level of healing is then to, oh, how do. How can I use this experience? How can I express this experience I've had in my own healing journey in a way that supports and heals others? You know, to me, that would be kind of the essence of art, no matter how what form you express it in. Right. It's. It's putting it out there in a world, moving it through your body, moving it through creativity in a way that others can experience the essence of it without, you know, necessarily knowing your whole story or something like that. And I've certainly found that, you know, very, very, very healing in so many different ways. And, yeah, we strongly encourage, you know, a lot of the guys we work with, like, it's great when you can transmute some of that. I think that's part of the power, right, is transmuting some of that. And there's something about when we tell our story and combine it with creativity that is just. Yeah, it's deeply healing. Jason Lange: Sure. Certainly stuff like addiction can be one manifestation of that for both men and women. I would say just like the total feeling of stuckness or depression of like nothing changes, there's no point. Like I see people just kind of stuck, settling for life and like frustrated. It's not getting any better, so to speak. And then, you know, less the kind of guys we work with. But you know, another version would be just going from a relationship to relationship or you know, particularly I think for a lot of some types of men just, you know, sleeping around continually. And then as soon as a relationship starts to get close or something, we bounce to the next person or get hard. Yeah, yeah, totally. There's so many different manifestations, I would say of it. But you know, basically this just getting, not growing I think would be what happens when you don't do the work. It's like you get stuck in the same patterns forever, right? No matter what. Oh my God, she's the one. This time it's going to be totally different. And then two years later you find out she had been cheating you on the whole time. Just like your last five relationships. Right. There's something that keeps playing out over time and that's oftentimes a sign that there's some work that needs to be done on your side. No one deserves to be cheated on, but there's some part of that pattern that you're okay with and co creating over and over and over again. And until you become aware of that, it's just going to keep happening, right? It's just going to keep happening or you're just going to keep getting stuck on first dates. You're just going to keep getting stuck in the friend zone. You're just going to scare women away when you ask them to commit to you. You know, there's all kinds of different manifestations of this, but I think that's really what happens is kind of that, that feeling of this has happened before. Oh my God, here we go again. Right. I think that's oftentimes what plays out when we're not doing the work. And yeah, you know, one thing we do hear a lot from our guys when we talk about, you know, what is it you're wanting to move towards and you know, what kind of relationship do you want? A lot. A lot of guys end up saying you know, someone I can grow with is something I hear a lot. And that's, I think this is actually what they mean by that is while someone who's doing their work and someone who I'm doing, doing, you know, and I'm doing my work and together we're doing our work so that we're both actually growing and changing in healing and learning new things and trying new things and not getting stuck in the same pattern over time in that we actually get to support each other in that journey. You know, one of the really powerful and I think special things that a healthy, growth oriented relationship where both partners are doing the work allows for.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I really like that. Especially just the, the concept of, you know, you don't need to do this alone. And actually if you look at people who are doing the work, most of them are not doing it alone. I mean, the vast majority, they may be having solo practices. Like they might be doing Wim Hof breath and they might be meditating and they might be, you know, working out in a different way and they're in community. It's very rare that you find someone doing the work successfully because part of what you named is certain patterns of like, you know, my last three girlfriends or wives or whatever combination have been emotionally abusive. I, you know, I don't know how to get out of this. It just seems like it keeps happening. It's like that's why it's important to have a mentor. That's why it's important to have community. Because someone has seen that pattern before and been through it. Yes, someone has seen it before. Someone has held 25 men through the same pattern of being with an emotionally abusive woman. Okay, let's talk about your childhood. Let's talk about some stuff. Let's do some exercises around it. You know, let's get you in your body more like there is a path. There's a path. There are people who've been down the path before that can hold you through it. So I guess I just wanted to stress like, don't do it alone. That doing the work is not doing it alone. It might involve things you do alone, but it's not, it's not. The most efficient way to do the work is not to do it alone. It's to do it with tribe 100%.

Jason Lange: Because even the most self aware person like we were talking about, we all have shadow material. We literally have things we can't see about ourselves. Right. But then someone else can spot it from a mile away and, you know, it makes it Much easier for these patterns to surface. And, you know, that's part of the beauty of the dynamic of relationship itself. By being in relationship with, we surface these patterns about ourselves and with each other that we don't normally see alone. And it's part of where so much of that growth and healing comes from. But, like, we tell our guys, you can't lone wolf this. Like, it just. It doesn't work. It really, you know, you can try, and there's. There's things you can do alone, but it always comes down to the place. You know, the place the work gets expressed, the place different choices get expressed is always in relationship. Right. It's in relation to someone else, to something else. And so it's just so important, like you said. Yeah. Have a men's group, have a mentor, have a therapist. Honestly, you want them all in our book, you know, you can't have too much. And then when you have a partner that supports that as well, it's amazing. It's exciting, and it's part of what keeps relationship fresh and vital as well.

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Melanie Curtin: You're not alone in that either. Like, there's someone that is like, oh, I noticed that you. There's this thing you do where you sort of freeze and shut down when I say this kind of thing. And it feels like you kind of go inward or you go into yourself and you withdraw. Like, can you tell me about that? What's going on for you there? And there's someone to work with about it. And as you and I have also said, you know, couples can get therapists too. Like, you don't have to hold all of that yourself either. But you wouldn't. That stuff wouldn't come up without that sacred relationship. It wouldn't come up without that person. So to me, it feels like, you know, the most advanced level of the video game is sacred Relationship. You really want to do the work. You get yourself to a place where you can be in sacred relationship, and then you do that, and that's like level 10.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's. I mean, it's. It's amazing. It's probably the best place we have, you know, the Great thing about relationship is it's someone that can trigger us and someone we feel safe with simultaneously. Right. A lot of times a lot of our acquaintances or relationships are either people that just purely trigger us, AKA a lot of family sometimes, or are just pure safe, like our therapist. You know, it's pretty rare our therapist is going to go and trigger us, but in relationship we kind of have both. Like, wow, this person cares about me. I love them. And sometimes like, like stuff just comes up and I go nuts when they do X, Y or Z. That's such a beautiful, you know, creative tension to have in relationship, to do the work with. Like in a healthy relationship that it's so powerful with and that. You know why I think it's important to know what this is is because once you begin your path of doing the work, almost everyone I know who stepped on it, like you said, it becomes a non negotiable. Right. I want to be with a partner who's also doing their work because it's pretty hard to make a relationship work when one person's committed to growth and the other has no interest. I've. I've just never really seen those last in any kind of vital, thriving fashion over time.

Melanie Curtin: I've never seen it work either. Cool. So I'm also interested in, you know, you guys. If you're listening and you have any thoughts or anything that you want to share, please reach out dearmen podcastmail.com I would be very interested in what your experience has been doing the work, or if you have anything to add, would love to hear that. And then Jason and I have a free training called how to Take Control of youf Dating Life, which touches on some of what we've talked about. But if you are interested in going deeper or learning more about working with the two of us, you can go to Evolutionary Men Training. That's Evolutionary Men Training and check that out.

Jason Lange: We look forward to chatting with you.

Melanie Curtin: Don't.