Here's the paradox that traps so many conscious couples: the very personal growth work that makes you a better human being can quietly kill the erotic charge in your relationship. I got to explore this with Melanie Curtin and my wife Violet on the Dear Men podcast, diving into one of my favorite topics because I see it constantly in my work. Men who've done years of therapy, learned to feel their emotions, and cultivated their inner lives, yet they can't figure out why the passion disappeared with their equally evolved partners.
We walked through the three stages of relationship. Stage one is survival-based, contract marriages. Stage two is where most couples get stuck. It's all about equality and fairness, which is important developmental work. But here's what happens: men cultivate their feeling bodies and emotional sides, women step into their power in the world. Both good things. The problem? The polarity reverses. She's in her masculine all day crushing it at work, he's learned to process his feelings endlessly. Then they come home and wonder why there's no sexual charge.
Stage three is where it gets interesting. That's when you practice these energies consciously as a gift to each other. My masculine becomes devoted to bringing depth and presence. Violet's feminine brings beauty and energy. It's not about roles or going backwards. It's about embodied practice that actually puts delight in each other's bodies.
The key for men is getting resourced enough that you're not afraid of your own power or her emotions. That usually means working with other men first, where those wounds aren't getting activated the same way they do with partners. Learn to be comfortable with discomfort. Practice being directive, not waiting for permission for everything.
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Melanie Curtin: I want him to be able to push me up against a wall and fuck me. I don't want to just be made love to all the time. Like, I want to feel wanted. I want to feel desired. I want to feel, you know, like he can lead. Hey, welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. This is May, and we are in the month of polarity, which is our theme. And if you have not yet joined the Big Sexy Data set, please just email me@dearmen podcastmail.com because I'm going to send out a survey about polarity. And don't worry if you don't know what that is yet. We're going to go over it in this episode. But I would love your take, so I'll remind you again at the end. Please, please join the Big Sexy Dataset. I'd love to hear from you. Ok. Welcome back to the podcast. Violet and Jason, thank you for being here.
Jason Lange: Excited to be back?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thank you. So you two are both actually relationship coaches and you work with both singles and couples. Violet, you work with women, and Jason, you work primarily with men, and then the two of you work with couples together, is that right?
Jason Lange: Exactly.
Melanie Curtin: Okay, perfect. So one of the main concepts, I think, in the evolution of human relationships, especially in dating and sexuality, is this idea of polarity. And the concept of it goes along with three different stages of relationships. So I'm wondering if you two can take us through what polarity is and what those three stages are.
Jason Lange: Absolutely. So polarity, as I've learned it in my lineage through my teacher John Wineland, who was a student of David Data, is the art and practice of how to build intimacy and sexual charge like actual energetics in a relationship. And so polarity, in essence, as we like to say, is practicing the art of difference, which in the most kind of black and white sense would be masculine energy and feminine energy.
Melanie Curtin: Yes. And as it relates to the stages of relationship, which is also a David Data concept, is that we will go through different phases in our life or in our relationships, sometimes within the same relationship, although that's more rare, where we will learn more about our healthy and unhealthy levels of polarity. So, for instance, in a stage one relationship, the man and the woman are more unconscious about their habitual patterns related to polarity. And typically, the man is in a less evolved masculine energy, so he's more connected to his, like, primal energy, but he doesn't have a lot of consciousness to it. So if he has power over others or he's bullying or he's Just going to take whatever he can get because, you know, you know, he's the guy, and he's going to use whatever means he wants to do that. I think of this as a little bit like bro culture also. And then stage one for the feminine is gossiping, manipulative, really focused on appearance, but maybe not a lot of depth, like the less conscious version of feminine energy. And there's charge there. Like, there's polarity there, masculine and feminine energy, but it's maybe not that healthy and not that constructive. That's where a lot of codependent relationships come in. And then in stage two, the masculine person or the person holding the masculine pole at that time adopts more feminine values, becomes more focused on feelings and emoting and expressing and, you know, compassion and all of these traits that may be thought of as more feminine. And the feminine person or the person holding the feminine pole and adopts more masculine qualities like, okay, I can't just get lost in my emotions. I can't just be manipulating people for sex or for someone to financially take care of me. You know, I need to have some goals of my own in my life. And so she adopts more of the masculine energy. And then the third stage, the masculine says, okay, I've got in touch with my feelings. I've adopted more feminine energy. Now I need to return to the hunt, so to speak. It's okay for me to build my kingdom. It's okay for me to claim what I want and still be in touch with my feelings. But he kind of returns to his. His masculine in a more evolved and healthy way. And then similarly, the woman in stage three returns to her own feminine energy in a more evolved way. She says, okay, yeah, I can go out and, you know, I can lead a team in my corporate job, and I can make things happen and get things done and be really, really agentic and driven in my life. But, God, it feels nice just to be taken care of emotionally or to have someone who's got me and makes me feel safe and who wants to ravage me, and I feel cherished. And so she kind of reclaims her queen and includes stage one and stage two. But stage three, our teacher John Wineland always talks about, is where you make art of your. Of your relationship. So it becomes more of a dance between the two partners. And the stage two is where there's reverse polarity. The stage two, the man is more in his feminine and the woman is more in her masculine. And that's kind of what we're going to Focus on today in part, because, Violet, you coach women, and Jason and I, we coach men together in our program. And I think that all. All three of us, many of us in the field, see a lot of reverse polarity relationships. So I want to spend most of our time today on stage two and reverse polarity. And I'm wondering, yeah. If you could speak, Jason, a little bit to what you were saying before we started recording about, like, equality that. Oh. So in stage one, perhaps it's. It's more like, you know, gender norms that are old school that we think of. But then in stage two, it's like, men and women should be equal. Women have equal rights. And there's a lot of, like, you know, can you. Can you just talk about that a little bit and what that does to the sexual dynamic?
Jason Lange: Absolutely. So, I mean, these stages of relationship, every couple can, to some extent, move through them. And culturally, we move through them. So stage one is kind of how things were based on biology in a lot of ways. Right. And survival. And you can think of stage one as kind of me oriented. I'm going to do whatever it takes to survive. So a lot of relationships, traditional relationships, man and woman, were actually kind of contracts. Right. You're gonna pass on my lineage. You're gonna, you know, father my children, and I'm gonna provide safety, and then you'll rear the children. And there was all kinds of things in that, but the focus is really on survival for each person now. That all started to blow up in the 50s, 60s, and 70s in particular, because those roles got liberated just through what was happening in culture and work and shifting technology and, you know, women not needing men to physically take care of them in the same ways. So what started to happen then was the polls kind of began to shift, and there was a cultural awakening of, oh, my God, look at all this awful patriarchy and how much men have dominated women in relationship and culturally since then. Like, oh, we got to become aware of that, and we need to make things a little bit more equal and fair. And so it was in that period, and this is what really is the essence of stage two, that the shift becomes more towards away from just me to also you. So it's about your feelings, your safety, your X, Y and Z, and equality and fairness becomes a huge part of that meaning. Well, just because I have this biology and you have this biology doesn't mean we have to do things this way. Right? We're equals, so we can each do this, we can each do that. And the development of that and how it's kind of come through culture and why this is an important growth path on the way to stage three, which we may talk about another time, is that for men, right, coming out of stage one, you have to cultivate your feeling body, your emotional body, your ability to relate. And for a lot of women coming out of stage one, it's more important to cultivate their professional life, their agency, their ability to function independently in the world. And so the energies just shift, right? A lot of men start. I mean, the classic of this is, right, a guy grows his hair out long, starts drumming, smoking weed, gets kind of soft. There's actually a soft feeling energetically in his body. And then a woman goes out and gets a job and kicks ass as a CEO and is leading a massive corporation and wearing power suits. And there's much more of an edge there, right? There's much more of a kind of hardness there. So that's kind of what's happened culturally. But then we see that showing up in the relationships. We see it, you and I, Mel, and the guys we coach. Violet sees it in the women she coaches, and then Violet and I see it in the couples we coach in that oftentimes the men are more kind of in their feminine energy. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's actually a great developmental step. It's extremely important. And women are a little bit more in their masculine energy, right? I mean, we just see this all over the place right now. Education scores, graduation rates. Like, women are just kicking ass in the kind of more executive functioning area of the world. And what that really starts to do, though, is a lot of times, women are kicking ass all day and men aren't, and then they want to date. And this is where the reverse polarity piece comes in. And you can think of this as. Right. The idea behind polarity is just. We all know the concepts of two magnets, right? If you have a positive end and a negative end, things, if they're different, they'll pull towards each other. There's attraction there. But if you put two positives next to each other, two negatives, they kind of repel each other. And so what happens in reverse polarity is each person is kind of going against their nature, and it kills the charge. Now, you can do this consciously, but that's a more advanced practice for other things. What's really happening in stage two is it's happening unconsciously. And so the energetics get messed up. And then this is also where stage two couples tend to be a little bit More aware. And again, the focus is on fairness. So there's a lot of like learning tools and techniques and structures for processing things. You know, we've. I've certainly have men in my men's groups who are in relationships where it's, it's just like endless processing. Every little wound or trauma has to be talked out and explained and processed. And that with the reverse polarity, kills the energetics even more.
Melanie Curtin: So when you're talking about structures and stuff, we're like nonviolent communication. We're going to use nonviolent communication to work through our stuff. We're going to.
Jason Lange: It's a great example, imago therapy.
Melanie Curtin: Right? Okay. And in a stage two relationship, or two people who are primarily in that dynamic, what's going on with their sex life? What's going on with their relationship life? I, in my sex research, I often come across people who say, we're just roommates. That's like a really common phrase that I find in my research. Would that be this couple? And I'm curious to hear from Violet, what are you seeing? You know, because I think a lot of the women that you work with are coming in, having had these relationships. What are they talking about? What does it feel like? What, you know, what's showing up? What I often see is that women have been in a stage two relationship for a certain period of time, and then they reach their breaking point and the relationship ends. And oftentimes it's the woman who's ending the relationship. And this happened to me in my first marriage where there's only so much that a woman wants to hold space for a man. If a woman is primarily wanting to be in her feminine, and we might go along with it for a while, and then we haven't been having sex for a long time, or we haven't been feeling cherished for a long time, and then we just reach a breaking point and the relationship ends. So a lot of my clients who've been in long term relationships, I would categorize those relationships as mainly stage two relationships. And then the flip side of that is oftentimes I'll work with women who maybe haven't been in a relationship in a long time, or the relationship they were in was pretty stage one and maybe a little bit unhealthy in certain ways or codependent in certain ways. They haven't had a stage two relationship, but they've healed from that level one, stage one, you know, codependent relationship. And yet when they're trying to date and trying to Find a healthy version of the masculine and a healthy partnership. They're tending to attract men that they just don't want to get into relationship with because they don't feel that that man can provide or bring to the table what they're looking for. Or the woman will say, yeah, I'm meeting men, but I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Like, I keep trying to make things happen, or I ask him out on a date, or, you know, hey, I'm just. I'm just doing what I think I should be able to do. I'm a woman. I can anyone out. I can make the first move. I can, you know, pay for my half. Or she thinks she's doing all these things that should be admirable by the man, but she's maybe kind of pushing the right men away. Well, this is a great place that I think we need to address this, because I do think, culturally speaking, I think we're still in a stage two phase, which is like, well, you know, I am a woman. I'm a liberated woman. I can do what I want. I should be able to fill in the blank. And, you know, I know a lot of women that are like, I don't want the man to pay for me. I want to pay for my half. I want to be able to ask him out. Like. And just to be clear, we're not saying there's anything wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that. We're just sort of. I'm trying to illuminate the concept of polarity here. And when you are, yes, a liberated woman, and you, you know, whatever, all of these things, you could pay for yourself. You could open the door for yourself. You could fill in the blank for yourself. And it's really nice if a man does it for you like that. I think that's sort of the point, is the choice around it. Not necessarily you have to pay for yourself, or. But it's like accepting, like, graciously accepting, like, thank you. Thank you for paying for me. I appreciate it. I feel taken care of. The ability to receive or to lean back or to surrender or, like, that ability. Violet, I'm guessing, is maybe part of what your women are cultivating is that part of what helps a woman move through stage two. And, I mean, we'll get to that. I don't want to jump ahead, but I think we. It's important to pause there, because I do think there are a lot of people listening that'll. That'll think, like, well, what's wrong with women's lib. Like, we're not suggesting that we should go backwards in this conversation. Exactly. I'm really glad you brought that up. But I think in most of the relationships where they've ended, because it was a stage two relationship that completely lost all juice, all attraction, the sexual needs of at least the female partner who I communicate with way more than the males experience. But if she hasn't had sex in years and feels like she's the one holding the space and the breadwinner and all of that, she'll feel depleted often and not be getting her needs met. And then I think you've done research with your big, sexy data set about how common it is that women will actually end a relationship when their sexual needs are not getting met over a long period of time. Yeah, I was surprised. I asked people, you know, have you ever ended a relationship because of the sex? And 49% of men said yes, Which I didn't find surprising at all, especially since we're taught that sex is really important to men. But I was surprised that 61% of women said yes, I've ended a relationship because of the sexual. And actually 4% of that. That sample set also said other. They filled it in and they were like, I haven't done it yet, but I'm thinking about it right now. So I think the number is more like 63%. And I'm guessing that some of these are these stage two relationships of, you know, like, I mean, Violet, I think you've actually had experience being in this kind of relationship. But it's like, I want him to be able to push me up against a wall and fuck me. I don't want to just be made love to all the time. Like, I want to feel wanted. I want to feel desired. I want to feel, you know, like he can lead and like he's willing to lead. And it seems like a lot of women aren't. Aren't feeling that from the men that they're attracting. And maybe you can. You can speak a little bit to your experience, you know, having lived it. In my experience, it was similar but different. It was about the leadership, and it was about the desire, and it was also just about the. The charge. So my first marriage, you know, the last two or three years of the relationship, I can count on one hand the number of times we had sex. And oftentimes he would just kind of want me to maybe give him a hand job, and then he'd fall asleep, and I'd be like, okay, this is starting to get kind of creepy. So it was just not very fulfilling. And I think we both had some shadow things that were coming up. So I don't want to say that every stage two relationship is like that, but there starts to be a loss of charge and a loss of leadership and a loss of being able to surrender. I really like being made love to. I don't always want, you know, maybe kind of rougher or more on that nature sex, but I want to feel like I can totally surrender. And it's hard to feel like I can totally surrender if my partner is always asking me to lead or like, oh, I don't know what to do about this thing. And if he's really in his feminine or really wishy washy or he doesn't have a very strong libido or sense of direction in his life, I energetically don't really want to surrender to him in the bedroom. Yeah. Another thing that came up in the research that I did was like, this one woman said, my husband pats me on the head when he wants sex. Or like, the kind of like, mommy, may I relationship of like, he's sort of looking to her for direction or asking for her permission energetically to do things or make decisions. And there's this sort of dynamic of like a little boy interacting with his mom. I'm wondering if you, like, did you sense that or have you also had women who've reported that? I definitely felt that with my first husband, that was the kind of like, functional, would you give me a hand job? Would you help me fall asleep? So that was exactly what that felt like. And yes, I've had women share something similar. They felt like their exes were just like, seeking their permission all the time. The woman's permission, and the woman just didn't want to make decisions anymore. And then I've also had clients that literally their husbands or ex's mother was living with them. And it was just like a big kind of interesting constellation. So the theme is that the man is maybe not in his power and not setting direction in the relationship or in his life. And so the woman feels suffocated or burdened. And Jason, can you speak a little bit to the man's side, like, what it feels like for him to be in this dynamic? Because it's pretty excruciating for him too, I would imagine.
Jason Lange: Sure. I mean, I think this. For those that listen to your last month's theme about men taking their power back, I think we, you know, one way to think of stage two is it's where men have kind of lost their power in the sense of the actual connection to the energy of being able to penetrate the world and lead and go in a certain direction and make things happen. Be directive is one sense. And so this, again, kind of ties into the deeper cultural thing. But because of so many generations of pathological masculine literally dominating the feminine, there's a fear in a lot of men we work with, and certainly a fear I've had in my life of our own sexuality. Right. Because it can be dangerous, it can cause harm. And many of us grew up around guys who acted like that, or parents or role models or even just the messages we got from society that male sexuality is dangerous. On top of that, I think both sexes get that from some of the major religious traditions as well, that it's kind of something to be shameful of. And so there's like a pulling back of that energy. And then at the same time, right. The idea with stage two is safety, safety, safety and equal, equality and rights and all that kind of stuff. So for a lot of us men, it's. I don't want to ever make her feel uncomfortable, so I'm always going to wait to know it's okay. I'm going to wait for permission. Right. Which is not leading, it's actually following. And that's where the kind of polarity reverses. So for, you know, a lot of the men we've worked with, it's an actual discomfort with sexually taking the lead. You know, not even in the bedroom, but just kind of in the more chemistry side of relationship, of touching and kissing and moving towards intimacy. There's, you know, how this showed up for me was certainly like the. I want to know she likes me and I want her to tell me it's okay first. Which is great, actually. It's much better than stage one and what came before it. The problem just becomes, right over time, that doesn't lead to a very juicy relationship.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And I think the thing that I hear there is that a lot of it comes from a good place, Right. Like, yes, I'm a man. I don't want to be a rapist. I don't want to be the toxic masculine. I don't want to dominate. I don't want to denigrate. I don't want to be an asshole. I don't want to be a fuckboy. I don't want to be the guy who she complains to her friends about or who she feels used by. I don't want to be that guy. And so it's like running to the other side of the room of like, okay, so then the solution is, like, I'll be really, you know, like, I'll just really wait until it's totally clear that she likes me, and then I'll make a move because, you know, then I don't risk making her feel uncomfortable or bothering her or whatever, you know, fill in the blank. And that's kind of the conscious, like, side of the equation. And then the unconscious is. I'm ashamed of my sexual drive. I'm afraid of being attacked or rejected or whatever the, like, unconscious part is. And I think both of those live in all of us. But I think that's something that I've seen again and again is like, to me, I really admire that about. Especially the men that we work with in terms of, like, part of the reason that they, you know, are on a journey of owning their power again or taking it back is because they don't want to misuse it. They don't want to misuse their power. They want to be responsible about it. And they. They're, like, looking around being like, how the fuck do I do that? Like, you know, who are the role models of a man that isn't toxic and isn't passive? Right? Like, who. Who is the guy? And I think that's sort of what we're leading towards in stage three is healthy masculine leadership and healthy leading, which is not dominating. So. So just to go back when you were talking about, you know, stage two for the masculine, I would imagine feels pretty bad because he's. He's waiting, he's passive. He maybe wants sex from his partner, but doesn't really know how to ask for it other than kind of like, sort of. Kind of seeing if she might be in the mood. Right. Like, very. It's very much like, wait. I hear a lot of waiting, a lot of passive hanging back. I think I just, yeah. Want to name a dynamic I've seen again. And it's actually men who are in relationships where their. Their women hit them. Like actual physical abuse from their woman or emotional abuse from their woman maybe being emasculated, like, she puts him down a lot. Like, you can't fucking do anything right. Or just, you know, little sideways glances, like, just kind of, like, discussed or like, you know. Yeah, just this sort of sense of like, what were you. What are you doing? Like, what are you doing? Like, what are you. What do you contribute kind of thing, which would probably feel like shit. I mean, do you. Can you speak to Any of that in terms of male clients that you've heard stories like that from? That's a bit more specific.
Jason Lange: Definitely. Far more than, you know, when I got into coaching this work, far more than I ever expected. Stories of, yeah. Men being abused by their partners and totally taken advantage of. Right. That was pretty surprising in a lot. A lot of ways in that. Yeah, there's. There's. Right. Again, it's just kind of a shutdown of the male's power center in some sense, which is also where boundaries come from. Right. So if you can't set any boundaries, it's very. Gonna be very possible for your partner to kind of come and attack you and again, take that power away from you. And that's just something, you know, I've seen in a lot. A lot of guys. And, you know, the. The other thing I would just wanted to speak to was I've all. You know, on the other side, right. The feminine stage two, I think, is where a lot of feeling gets shut down. And I've seen that certainly emotionally and then I think physically, right. In that we've definitely worked with guys. I've worked with guys. And I know part of what Violet helps women with is getting more in touch with their bodies and actually becoming more open and more receptive to be able to surrender. And that's an actual thing. That's a weakness when you're out trying to conquer the world, right. When you're trying to move forward in your job or your business, where, you know, most of the way the business world is set up is it is masculine, it is dominated in a more patriarchal sense, where, you know, it's not good to show weakness. It's not good to be vulnerability. That stuff's kind of starting to change. But so a lot of women in stage two are actually shutting off their feelings, shutting down their bodies to perform more, Perform more, execute, get more done, take care of things. And so they're often feeling, you know, not quite as energized there. So it's harder for them to kind of open, and it's harder for men to open them. And so, again, that's kind of just the reverse and depolarized nature of things. And then the other area I've seen this a lot is with feminine partners withholding their true feelings from their partner. Like, there's kind of like, no, it's okay. Like, yeah, no, there's. There's like a minimizing and a flatness when actually they're, like, dying inside. Like, their heart is actually Dying that their partner is not showing up more coming towards them or loving them. There's kind of just that more like safe, neutral space. And I've seen that time and time again. And those kind of relationships can just go on for so long where it kind of just becomes, you know, stage two, I think, is also a place where it's really easy to get stuck in the comfort. It's. It's just we're kind of friends. It's easier to be with someone than not be with someone. It's maybe a little flat, but we can talk about things. That's somewhere a lot of stage two couples can get stuck. Particularly when the man has, you know, this is just very reductionist. But the man's lost his power and in the woman's lost access to her pleasure.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I got really sad when you were talking about that. It's like that, you know, I guess just because I am the feminine, like, the idea of just like, being not really sharing my heart, in part what I would imagine is like, I don't really trust that he can handle it totally.
Jason Lange: And oftentimes they can't.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, it's like I'm kind of protecting you from my real upset because I don't trust that you're going to be able to. To handle it, to deal with it. And then I'm gonna feel worse. Right. Like, if I bring my truth, like, I'm angry about this thing and you're. And you're just like, oh, and you just want to do anything to fix it, or you. I don't know, just. You can't really hold space for it. Like really just step up and hold space. Then I feel like I have to take care of it on my own. And so then I guess I would shut down more and more over time. And like, I think the bottom line here, because I am a sex researcher and the sex part is important to me is that stage two sex lives suck. I mean, right. Like, most of the time they suck. Like, the sex tends to go away. I mean, a lot of the clients I work with, they don't have that when they're starting out. That's the problem. They're not having a lot of sex. And if they're having it, it's kind of flat, but mostly and wondering if you two can speak to this. A lot of it is, like, the absence of it. Like, couples that haven't had sex in years, men who haven't had sex in years, that are in a relationship, whether it's a marriage or otherwise. And I'm always amazed at, like, wow, that has gone on for a really long time. Yes. I think it really speaks to what Jason was sharing earlier, that the woman has lost contact with her pleasure, with her body, with her emotions. And if she were to bring something up, sexually or otherwise, she feels like she's going to have to caretake her partner, even in that discussion, because he might collapse into shame or he might have things come up, which, I mean, we all have that come up from time to time. But we're talking about more like a habitual pattern where if I share my hurt, if I share my upset, he will collapse. So I don't want to make him feel even more ashamed or inferior or whatever it is. So I'm just not going to say anything. But then I'm continuing to guard my heart. And that's where women I feel like. And in my experience with my clients will pretend it's fine, like Jason was saying, or maybe even fake orgasms or just check out numb out during sex, like, okay, let's just kind of get this over with. And then they may or may not go masturbate on their own or have something that they do on their own, but then they're still seeking and needing that sense of surrender and that sense of connection and divine union that they're not getting from their partner. So they think, okay, well, if I'm not getting my needs met from my partner, it's okay, because at least I'm crushing it at work. So I'm just going to keep putting all my energy into work. I mean, that's a cycle a lot of my clients get into is my relationship wasn't fulfilling. I just put all my energy into work so I didn't have to think about the relationship not being fulfilling. Eventually, it ended. I hadn't had sex in a really long time, and I'm just habitually now used to shutting down my body and putting my energy into work and building a more strong, like, masculine shell. Yeah, that's. I'm glad you spoke to that, because I feel like that's like, if you guys ever seen the dates, right? Where, like. I remember when I was a dating coach in D.C. i vividly remember this woman who came to one of our workshops. She was a lawyer. She was wearing, like, a, you know, like a suit kind of thing. And she was like, I just. I don't understand, like, why I can't, like, can't find any men that are, you know, like, my equal or something like that. And I was sort of Asking her, like, what, you know, what she did before a date or what her pleasure practices were, basically. I didn't have that language, but I was asking her, you know, what kinds of things she used to get into her body and to feel her softness. Like, some way of feeling her softness, her access to that softness. And she just looked at me blankly like she just couldn't. Like, she just couldn't get there. She was like, I don't know what you're talking about. Like, to her, it was like, I'm on match.com, i've got my dating profile. I'm going on dates. I'm asking all the right questions, like, why isn't this working for me? And I think that is a very sort of stage two place. Because I also think, you know, on the flip side, for men who are in this stage, it's like, why do I keep attracting mean women? I don't understand why I keep attracting, like, I. You know, all of the women that I'm with are kind of, like, controlling or manipulative or emotionally distant or, you know, they're sort of listing the same things and they're confused. They're like, I don't. I don't know why this is happening. And I'd love to speak to that really quickly because I think that for a woman, just like we were saying, that the man has good intentions when he learns to access his emotional body and his feeling state, the woman tends to have good intentions, too. When she's in stage two, she doesn't want to be a manipulative woman. She doesn't want to be catty or one of those girls who's really superficial. So she's proud of, okay, I've got a career. I'm smart. I'm not just some dumb, ditzy woman being taken advantage of or taking advantage of others and being a gold digger. So she's kind of developed a pride around her career and around this Persona that she has. And some of it is also fostered by her family or our. Or the culture. Like, okay, get straight A's. Get into a good school. Like, so by the time she's dating, she's thinking, well, I'm doing all the right things. But all the right things is more of the metrics. Like, I'm on all the apps. I'm going on four dates a week. I'm, you know, I look a certain way, but it's not based on authenticity. Yeah. And that's why I have so much compassion for this, this stage. And people that are in this stage, whether it's an individual or us as a culture, because it is really confusing. Because it. I think this is as far as we've gotten in the general culture of like, do these things and you'll find the right partner and all will be well. And it's like, that's not what we're seeing. Like, I can tell you as a sex researcher, that's not what we're seeing. Like, if, you know, if there's a woman who, like you said, goes to a good school, gets good grades, moves into the corporate world, you know, kicks ass in that way. Our culture doesn't talk about pleasure practices. We don't talk about softness as a value. That's not a thing we talk about. And we don't talk about a man health, you know, owning his power in a healthy way, right? It's like really binary. It's like either you're the toxic masculine or you're a sensitive new age guy, right? Like, we don't have a lot of language or anything around this. Which is why I think discussions like this are important. Because it's like there is a third way. There is a third stage. There is a way to be both. Like, there's a way to be successful and be able to be in your masculine as a woman and have access to your softness and have practices that bring you into your body where you are able to surrender and receive and love in a feminine way. Like, you can have both, you can do both and be both. And the man can be in his power and able to lead and able to feel his feelings and be, you know, emotional. Because I think that's really the problem with the first stage, right, Is like, women are never allowed to be in their power and men are never allowed to show any emotion. We can't. That doesn't work. That's just toxic in so many ways. So I think we're sort of moving towards like, what. What is third stage? And then. And how do we get there? So what would you two say is a third stage relationship? And how do people get there?
Jason Lange: So, I mean, just very broadly, you could think, you know, like I said, stage one is me focused. Stage two is a little bit more fair equality. You focused. Stage three is when it becomes more about us or the we. Meaning what would serve our relationship, right? Not just you or me, but actually what would serve love? What would serve consciousness? And that's a different frame, right? When maybe I've been working all day and I'm exhausted. I just want to Go to bed. But I know, you know, making love to my wife would bring her something. Like it would actually bring her something that would then feed our relationship. Like it's important for our relationship. So stage three, I would say is, you know, another way to think of it is it's where we get to play with these energies consciously. So, you know, the reality of life is a lot of it actually exists in long term coupled them. In stage two, most of the day you're actually kind of just functioning as equal partners. What stage three is, is the really important skill set in place where you practice and when we need to cultivate this energy to truly nourish and serve our relationship, we know how and what that might look like is yes, there's all kinds of things my wife Violet can do for herself. She's an incredible leader as an incredibly powerful masculine. And I know that and a bunch of that stuff she doesn't want to do, right. Energetically, it has like a cost to her that it doesn't in the same way have to me. So I can actually gift her certain experiences right? Where it's like, yeah, I know you could open the door, but you know, this is a simple example. Open the door for you as a gift, or yeah, you could take out the trash, or I could take out the trash for you. And that will bring energy to our relationship, to our coupledom. So it's this, it's really the shift towards the we. It's also a shift, I think, and certainly in the training I've gotten towards embodiment, meaning it's not just about talking about things all the time, in fairness, but it's where we bring our bodies back online and we show our partners with our bodies what we're experiencing, what we're feeling. And that sometimes what could be an hour long processing conversation can be a two minute physical dance or exertion or pounding on each other's chests or all kinds of different things. But again, the idea is what's going to liberate love in the relationship. And so how this often shows up is that, you know, a man reclaiming his power, but not to have power over his woman, but to actually gift her a certain type of freedom where she doesn't have to take the reins for 20 minutes. And the woman actually being able to gift the man the feeling of being needed and her surrendering to him like that really brings us men alive, right? And her energy and her body and feeds us and nourishes us. So in stage three, we're kind of bringing back these things, but they're not roles. I think the other important thing I'll say here is these are not roles or. Or really even concepts, but these are actual embodied energetics that you can tune into and that both sides have access to. I can do feminine practice. Violet can do masculine practice. And there may be times in our relationship where we would consciously do something with that energy in our dynamic. It so happens that I tend to be most nourished when I'm deeply in my masculine, and she's gifting me feminine energy and vice versa. So that's a good gift for us. And when we're practicing in stage three, we're gifting these energies towards each other, if that makes sense. My power becomes a gift to her. Her pleasure becomes a gift to me, and it feeds this us that's so much bigger than either of us individually.
Melanie Curtin: Wow, that was beautiful. I think one of the things that I really heard in that is the practice of it, that it's not like a static thing. We're here all the time, but it's something we can move in and out of and we have access to. And the taking out the trash example, I think, is a good example of that's an activity that can be done from a stage two place. She's shaming him for not doing it, or she's nagging him, or he's, you know, whatever, resisting it, or, I don't know, something around it, versus, I choose to do this. This is a gift to my partner. I want to provide for my woman. I'm gonna do this. Like, if there's, like, an attitude and an energy and a leadingness about it, I would imagine that it, you know, in a. From a stage three perspective, that's. That feels different. And it's.
Jason Lange: It can be super subtle.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, maybe the same activity or the same, you know, thing that's happening, but the energetics behind it are different. And there's no. Yeah, there's no skipping. Like, I'm glad you mentioned role playing because, you know, it's sort of like, to me, it's like, these are sacred journeys. Like, the feminine reclaiming her pleasure is a big deal. It takes energy, it takes effort, it takes practice. And the masculine reclaiming his power is a big deal. It takes energy, it takes effort, it takes practice. You can't just skip that step and be like, oh, I get it. Stage three, I'll just be in my power. Like, no, you gotta actually go through and, like, do that. And that, to me, is like, that's Personal growth. Right. Like, it takes. It takes energy to be able to get there, I guess is my point. You can't just be like, oh, let's just do stage three now. Like, it's not something. It doesn't work like that. You can't fake being in your power, and you can't fake being in your pleasure.
Jason Lange: Totally not. I think that's a. Exactly. This is an actual practice. And another marker, I would say, of the stage three is that it's much more vulnerable. Meaning stage three is. The emphasis is not so much on just total safety in stage three is like, I'm willing to be hurt by you to serve our relationship. I'm willing to be. To open myself up so much that I can't protect myself anymore, which means taking risks. Right. And so, you know, this is where it's. This is where it's a conscious, intentional practice, right. With someone who you're in an agreement with. Like, yeah, we want a stage three practice. This isn't, you know, first date kind of thing. But stage three is where sometimes we have agreements, but what would truly serve love or consciousness in the moment is to go a little bit past them. Right. My partner might say, we're in a fight, like, don't touch me or get out of here. And I might say, no, I'm staying. Right. Which is actually in stage two would be a huge violation. But in stage three, you know, what does our relationship need right now? Not me, not her. It needs us to stay in this room together. Would be an example of that. Now, the thing about playing at stage three is that can go horribly wrong. I mean, there's just a lot more risk in that, but there's also potentially a lot more reward in the right context.
Melanie Curtin: In my experience, stage three is more about love than about, like, duties or accomplishments. It feels like in stage two, for the trash example, like, okay, she cleaned the bathroom, so I'm gonna take out the trash. Or she did this, I'm gonna do that. It's kind of like we need to be tit for tat with each other. Or if Jason and I were going to Burning man, and he was like, okay, so I'm gonna pack up the car, and you can do all of this stuff. Like, I mean, we could look at it that way, but it wouldn't feel very good versus me being like, okay, I'm gonna look at our outfits. I'm gonna pick out some fun stuff. I'm gonna make our meal plans. And it's more like we're giving each Other our gifts. And it's really adding energy versus just being neutral the whole time. I like that you spoke to that, because I think there's this. I think it's really hard, actually. You know, Einstein says you can never solve a problem from the same level of consciousness that created it. And I. There's a, There's a level of consciousness of stage two that, that very much does reflect a lot of our culture. Like, I'll do this for you, and then you'll do something for me. And it's hard to get out of that paradigm, you know, if you're, if you've been in it for a really long time. It's like, it's hard to even conceptualize, like, what the hell it would even. It would even be like, to graduate beyond that. It's sort of like, I don't even know. I don't even know what that would be like. I, you know, that's so But I like that example because it's sort of like coming from your essence. Right? It feels like to me, that's what it is. It's coming from your, your essence or your creativity. And, you know, especially for the, for the feminine, from your pleasure. Like, this would feel good to me. Like, this, this sounds fun. Like, I'm gonna do this for us. And it's delightful to me. And yeah, there's just a. There's a different energy to it than, like, okay, yep, you've got that. I've got this. Like, it's very much like you can hear it in our voices. Our voices change feminine when we're in our masculine versus when we're in our feminine. Like, and I think, yeah, I'm just wondering, Jason, if you can speak a little bit to. To that experience of, of doing things or providing things as a gift rather than an obligation. Because I, I, I hear that from. From men a lot. Like, I feel like I can't do anything right. Everything just feels like, yeah.
Jason Lange: Well, I think another way to speak towards stage three also, which is, you know, a little more esoteric, is it's also where it becomes devotional. So these are devoted. We're practicing. I'm practice being in my masculine. Practicing being in my masculine as a devotional act to Violet, and she's being in her feminine as a devotional act to me. And there's even another layer on. Under this where. And it's not just about me and Violet. It's about the actual. These energetics, like, the archetypes of these energies of, like, I am the Masculine being devotional to the feminine. And there's like another layer of that perspective that I think comes online a little bit at stage three, where we're not just gifting the person, we're gifting the whole history and lineage of these different energies. And it becomes a way. You know, I think another way to think of this is how we can literally put delight in our partner's body is, you know, when I'm really in my embodied kind of third stage masculine, which, you know, sometimes is more than others, and when violets in her embodied third stage feminine, like, it actually puts delight in us, right? There's. There's something that happens at a nervous system level in a type of energetic exchange that's so powerful and so energizing and healing at the same time that, yeah, it becomes an actual practice of just being devotional to that even of, like, wow, when I really step into this, look what happens.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I'm glad you touched on that, because I do think, you know, sacred sexuality, it's about more than just your individual partner. It's about the energy that's coming through them. Like the divine feminine that's coming through her in that moment, or the divine masculine coming through you. It's like, wow, look at that. That's incredible. And look at who we are together. That's incredible. Instead of just this one particular person, it's. It's. I mean, it's kind of both at the same time because it's like, this is the per. You know, this is my person, this is my lobster. Like, this is my partner. And then there's this bigger thing too that's happening.
Jason Lange: So, yeah, the last thing that just comes up in my mind that, you know, very much comes firsthand from my working with John and thinking about just these energetics of masculine and feminine are that. Right. And third stage, the masculinity's job in every moment is to bring more depth, to actually bring more depth in consciousness to the moment. And the feminine's job is to bring more beauty, love and energy. And any single moment, no matter how long you've been with a partner, can be made more beautiful and more deep. And when you're in that energetic exchange with each other, that's when this whole other thing just opens up. And so, you know, for us men and the men we train in our program, part of it is helping them learn to cultivate depth, depth of presence, depth of awareness, depth of consciousness, so they can bring that into interactions with, you know, partners they're dating in relationships. They're creating. And then same thing with women, right. Part of what Violet does with women is help them open up to use that full range of expression in your body, in your heart, and use that to bring more love and beauty and energy to the moment. Because God knows you could see it with a lot of us guys walking around. We're just like depressed and grumpy a lot of the times. Just a little feminine energy goes a long way.
Melanie Curtin: Right.
Jason Lange: It's amazing how fast you can see it turn, turn, turn, turn the masculine around.
Melanie Curtin: And I feel like a lot of that is women and us as a culture valuing feminine gifts. A lot of women are like, well, my beauty doesn't really matter or my emotions, I should keep those in. Or, you know, me dancing in lingerie for my partner, I can't do that. Like, that feels too vulnerable. So as a society, I feel like we're starting to value these feminine qualities more. And as women individually, we're valuing them because. Because it's a risk. It's a risk to say, you know what, I'm going to let you do 80% of the planning and logistics for this thing. Even though I could do my fair share. I'm just going to receive and I'm going to trust that my receiving is actually a gift and is actually enough. Yeah, I'm really glad you spoke to that because I do think it feels to me like a lot of the practice on the feminine side is learning to lean back. Like, lean back, slow down, be in your pleasure. And that is just not what society teaches us to do. It just isn't like on either side. It's just we just. That's not a message that we get. Oftentimes for the feminine, it's about sharing our truth, whatever it is in the moment. But we're told as women, you can't change your mind. You know, you went to school, school for this, you should study that and you should get a job based on that. Like, we get told as young women that our consistency, our integrity, our follow through, our linearity is important. And I'm not saying it's not, but it's very different feeling in the body than the receptivity and the openness that if tears are flowing, just let them flow. Yeah. And I've heard from multiple women who. There are a lot of women who are shamed in a relationship for that. Like, you're too emotional, you're too sensitive. You know, like the you're too much message I think is a good example of like a man who's not in touch with his emotions and who's not able to hold space for his emotions isn't gonna be able to do that for his partner. And that is why stage two is so important. Right? Because my understanding is that it's not about skipping stages, it's about moving through the stages. So stage two is necessary. That man who's shaming his partner for her over emotionality, he's got some work to do, and it's around his emotions and dropping into his feeling body and being able to hold space for himself. And then he can move into stage three, but he doesn't get to just skip that step. That's a. Yeah, that's a. That's an important. I don't know. Phase.
Jason Lange: Yeah, that's it. The man's just got to do more work. If he's still afraid of feminine emotion, he's not going anywhere fast past stage two. This is also where in stage three, I'd say the other dynamic is, right where there's a dance on both sides. And like, that example I used of feminine partners in stage true, Stage two, not fully revealing the hurt in their hearts. What makes that such a powerful act of revealing and surrender, which can oftentimes be the thing that ignites stage three, is that it's often what will actually call the masculine fourth into, like, the stage three version of the protector. Like, fuck, okay, I didn't know how much you were hurting here, right? Which is oftentimes all the women in stage two are, like, longing for is just to actually feel you're, like, here and not afraid.
Melanie Curtin: It occurs to me there's a story. I remember one of my friends telling me she had done something different with her hair, and she came in the room, and she twirled around for her husband, and she was like, what do you think? He was like, it's fine. And her feelings were so hurt. Like, so hurt. But she didn't say anything. She's like, okay. And she left the room. Her, like, her face hardened, her stomach tightened up, and she just kind of like. Like there were little moments like that in their marriage. Like, lots and lots of little moments. And looking back, it's like, you know, what is the stage two response? It's like, it's fine. It's not a big deal. You know, I should be a big girl. I should be able to handle it. Like, I. You know, I'm. I'm okay. Like, denying the hurt feelings versus, like, that really hurt my feelings. Like, I was really excited to show you this Thing and I feel hurt. Or like, oh, man. Ow. Like, ow is vulnerable. It's vulnerable. It's fucking vulnerable. Like, stage three is brave, I guess is my point is, like, it is easier to stay safe. It is easier to stay hidden. It is easier. Like, it's not as risky of, like, who knows? Maybe he'll shame me for being too emotional or maybe it'll be worse after I reveal it. Like, revealing your heart is not an easy thing to do on either side. But it does feel to me, at least from what I've seen, that that's a huge feminine contribution. Like her revealing her heart. Really revealing her heart. Not like shaming, like, I can't believe you did that, but like, ow. I really wanted to show you this pretty thing, and I wanted to feel pretty for you, and I didn't. Like, that's. That's different, right? That's a stage three delivery. Rather than like, God, you're so, like, you never listen to me. Right? Like, that's not revealing your heart. It's, like, attacking. So we're gonna have to start to wrap up here. But, you know, since you two are a couple who practices this, are there any, I don't know, tips or best practices that you've found in terms of maintaining polarity? Which is really, to me, it sounds like being in stage three related to what you just shared. I think one of the biggest things for the feminine. Well, two things, the first of which is go to your partner with your feelings. So often as women, we have an experience with our partner, like what you just shared about the haircut. We feel hurt. We judge ourselves for that. Or we don't think our partner will take it well if we bring up our hurt or we don't know how to bring up our hurt in a way that's playful. So we go and kind of bitch and moan about our partner to our girlfriends, and then that just creates triangulation and it erodes our respect for our partner because maybe our girlfriend will be like, man, you know, this and this. And it kind of gets into this dogging on men sort of thing, which is really not healthy. Versus saying, like, I demand you to look at me, look at how hot I am. And I'm going to keep twirling around because that hurt. But I'm going to be playful with you about it. And, you know, I'm going to. I'm going to captivate you no matter what. So bringing your heart to your partner and bringing your playfulness and your pleasure to your partner, which may sometimes Feel a little bit like stage one, to be kind of demanding or pouty or feisty or really emotional, but it can actually create a lot of charge and a lot of fun in the relationship. So what I'm trying to say is being less worried about messing it up and less worried about doing it right and more interested in just showing your heart and bringing that playfulness and that energy. That's great. I love that.
Jason Lange: And men, you know, the first thing that comes up to me is, like, get resourced. So many men are just unable to lead because they're afraid or they're unresourced. They don't have enough energy. So taking care of ourselves so we have energy to bring to a relationship is really powerful. Getting in touch with our bodies as you and I teach our guys, super important, right? Learning to get embodied, doing practices to bring you in your body, learning, you know, for the essence of male practice in some sense, is to just become more comfortable with discomfort. Like, can whatever's coming at you, can you just be okay with it? And there's ways to do that. Right. So you can get more resource no matter what's going on. So you're not afraid of your partner's emotions. Right. I think that's just the kind of double whammy for a lot of guys in stage two is they're afraid of their partner's emotions and maybe because they've been hurt by women before, and then they're afraid of their own power. And, you know, in stage three, when you get resourced and realized and realized that you don't have to be afraid of her emotions and that your power, your ability to direct, can actually be a big gift to her and that you need to get resourced and you need to practice doing that with other men. Conversely, is the funny kind of thing, is the best way to do that I found, as we teach our guys, is to work deeply with other men where some of those same wounds aren't being activated as they have been with other partners. And that starts to open up our nervous system so that we can bring. Bring ourselves more fully into partnership. But, you know, it's funny. I mean, I'm still practicing this as much as anyone else. I've been in training or we're in a marriage, and I can still get sleepy and fall asleep in stage two all the time. And, you know, in essence, it's, you know, practice just being more directive and always having a plan. That would be the masculine thing.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah. And I think an easy one thing I want to sort of leave, leave with, as an example is when the masculine is able to bring up hard conversations and hold space for them. To me, that's very powerful and very much neither toxic, which is, I'm going to ignore. I'm going to ignore you or give you the silent treatment, or I'm going to hit you. And it's not stage two, which is passive holding back. I don't really want to know what she's going to have to say about this. I can tell that there's something wrong, but I don't want to ask about it because I'm afraid of what's going to happen to me. That's a very powerful example of lead the conversation. Like, I want to talk about what's going on with us. I want to check in, how are you doing around? Fill in the blank. Whether that's like, you're thinking of being exclusive with someone or you can feel that your partner shut down yesterday and they've been kind of quiet, like, lead the conversation. It's so. I think that generates a lot of polarity in a dynamic when the masculine is willing, quote, unquote, willing to go there. Like, it's like, willing to go there. Like, that's so powerful. And I feel like when you're really willing to go there, like you said, Jason, it's when you've developed yourself to the point where you can breathe all the way down into your body and feel like, yes, I'm willing to go there. Instead of like, I don't really want to go there, but I guess I will.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that was a beautiful expression of that. Just that being able to lead those conversations. The masculine gift is freedom. So oftentimes, you know, in third stage practice, if we can feel our partner is not free in her body to feeling the flow of love, the directive is to go in and find out what's going on, to bring that freedom. Lead a conversation, twirl her around the kitchen, order her some ice cream so it shows up in the middle of a podcast.
Melanie Curtin: Is that true? That's really fucking cute if that's true. I just got very excited.
Jason Lange: Mother's Day is starting early.
Melanie Curtin: That is super cute. Oh, I think we should end there. That's, like, so perfect. Do you guys have any final thoughts or intuitive shares about second stage, moving into third?
Jason Lange: It helps when you can be around other people practicing it. So it's one thing for us to talk about it, but even my ability to talk about it's way more limited than my felt body experience. Of it having been in places where we've seen couples and experienced the energies ourselves. So, you know, find ways to practice.
Melanie Curtin: And same for women, I think, because there is so much talk out there about vulnerability. A lot. Brene Brown and other teachers, women just think, okay, well, you know, I'll just be vulnerable or I'll just set a boundary or I'll just find my pleasure. And they don't realize that it's an art and it's a practice and you can't learn it in a book. And you need to be around other women who can teach you that, because you can't. A man can help bring out your femininity, but he can't teach you your femininity. Yeah, tribe. That's what I heard in that. Find a tribe. Find your tribe and find teachers, find role models, find mentors and work with them. Investors, invest in your future. Hey, guys, this is Mel and this is Jason.
Jason Lange: You've probably heard me on at least a few episodes by now.
Melanie Curtin: And we coach together in part because we know that it's when the masculine and the feminine come together that we are the most powerful. So we wanted to let you know about a free training that we put together for you guys.
Jason Lange: It's about how to take back control of your love life. We are absolutely inspired to help guys like you take all of the amazing ideas that Mel has introduced to you on this podcast and actually put them into practice, bring them into your life to create lasting change.
Melanie Curtin: So if you're interested in that, just go to Evolutionary Men Training to sign up. If you've been looking for a way to go a little bit deeper than just this podcast, this is the opportunity.
Jason Lange: For you again, that's Evolutionary Men Training, and you're going to get a much deeper dive with Mel and I.
