Here's the paradox that traps so many conscious couples: the very personal growth work that makes you a better human being can quietly kill the erotic charge in your relationship. I got to explore this with Melanie Curtin and my wife Violet on the Dear Men podcast, diving into one of my favorite topics because I see it constantly in my work. Men who've done years of therapy, learned to feel their emotions, and cultivated their inner lives, yet they can't figure out why the passion disappeared with their equally evolved partners.
We walked through the three stages of relationship. Stage one is survival-based, contract marriages. Stage two is where most couples get stuck. It's all about equality and fairness, which is important developmental work. But here's what happens: men cultivate their feeling bodies and emotional sides, women step into their power in the world. Both good things. The problem? The polarity reverses. She's in her masculine all day crushing it at work, he's learned to process his feelings endlessly. Then they come home and wonder why there's no sexual charge.
Stage three is where it gets interesting. That's when you practice these energies consciously as a gift to each other. My masculine becomes devoted to bringing depth and presence. Violet's feminine brings beauty and energy. It's not about roles or going backwards. It's about embodied practice that actually puts delight in each other's bodies.
The key for men is getting resourced enough that you're not afraid of your own power or her emotions. That usually means working with other men first, where those wounds aren't getting activated the same way they do with partners. Learn to be comfortable with discomfort. Practice being directive, not waiting for permission for everything.
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Melanie Curtin: I want him to be able to push me up against a wall and fuck me. I don't want to just be made love to all the time. Like, I want to feel wanted. I want to feel desired. I want to feel, you know, like he can lead. Hey, welcome back to another episode of Dear Men. This is May, and we are in the month of polarity, which is our theme. And if you have not yet joined the Big Sexy Data set, please just email me@dearmen podcastmail.com because I'm going to send out a survey about polarity. And don't worry if you don't know what that is yet. We're going to go over it in this episode. But I would love your take, so I'll remind you again at the end. Please, please join the Big Sexy Dataset. I'd love to hear from you. Ok. Welcome back to the podcast. Violet and Jason, thank you for being here.
Jason Lange: Excited to be back?
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, thank you. So you two are both actually relationship coaches and you work with both singles and couples. Violet, you work with women, and Jason, you work primarily with men, and then the two of you work with couples together, is that right?
Jason Lange: Exactly.
Melanie Curtin: Okay, perfect. So one of the main concepts, I think, in the evolution of human relationships, especially in dating and sexuality, is this idea of polarity. And the concept of it goes along with three different stages of relationships. So I'm wondering if you two can take us through what polarity is and what those three stages are.
Jason Lange: Absolutely. So polarity, as I've learned it in my lineage through my teacher John Wineland, who was a student of David Data, is the art and practice of how to build intimacy and sexual charge like actual energetics in a relationship. And so polarity, in essence, as we like to say, is practicing the art of difference, which in the most kind of black and white sense would be masculine energy and feminine energy.
Melanie Curtin: Yes. And as it relates to the stages of relationship, which is also a David Data concept, is that we will go through different phases in our life or in our relationships, sometimes within the same relationship, although that's more rare, where we will learn more about our healthy and unhealthy levels of polarity. So, for instance, in a stage one relationship, the man and the woman are more unconscious about their habitual patterns related to polarity. And typically, the man is in a less evolved masculine energy, so he's more connected to his, like, primal energy, but he doesn't have a lot of consciousness to it. So if he has power over others or he's bullying or he's Just going to take whatever he can get because, you know, you know, he's the guy, and he's going to use whatever means he wants to do that. I think of this as a little bit like bro culture also. And then stage one for the feminine is gossiping, manipulative, really focused on appearance, but maybe not a lot of depth, like the less conscious version of feminine energy. And there's charge there. Like, there's polarity there, masculine and feminine energy, but it's maybe not that healthy and not that constructive. That's where a lot of codependent relationships come in. And then in stage two, the masculine person or the person holding the masculine pole at that time adopts more feminine values, becomes more focused on feelings and emoting and expressing and, you know, compassion and all of these traits that may be thought of as more feminine. And the feminine person or the person holding the feminine pole and adopts more masculine qualities like, okay, I can't just get lost in my emotions. I can't just be manipulating people for sex or for someone to financially take care of me. You know, I need to have some goals of my own in my life. And so she adopts more of the masculine energy. And then the third stage, the masculine says, okay, I've got in touch with my feelings. I've adopted more feminine energy. Now I need to return to the hunt, so to speak. It's okay for me to build my kingdom. It's okay for me to claim what I want and still be in touch with my feelings. But he kind of returns to his. His masculine in a more evolved and healthy way. And then similarly, the woman in stage three returns to her own feminine energy in a more evolved way. She says, okay, yeah, I can go out and, you know, I can lead a team in my corporate job, and I can make things happen and get things done and be really, really agentic and driven in my life. But, God, it feels nice just to be taken care of emotionally or to have someone who's got me and makes me feel safe and who wants to ravage me, and I feel cherished. And so she kind of reclaims her queen and includes stage one and stage two. But stage three, our teacher John Wineland always talks about, is where you make art of your. Of your relationship. So it becomes more of a dance between the two partners. And the stage two is where there's reverse polarity. The stage two, the man is more in his feminine and the woman is more in her masculine. And that's kind of what we're going to Focus on today in part, because, Violet, you coach women, and Jason and I, we coach men together in our program. And I think that all. All three of us, many of us in the field, see a lot of reverse polarity relationships. So I want to spend most of our time today on stage two and reverse polarity. And I'm wondering, yeah. If you could speak, Jason, a little bit to what you were saying before we started recording about, like, equality that. Oh. So in stage one, perhaps it's. It's more like, you know, gender norms that are old school that we think of. But then in stage two, it's like, men and women should be equal. Women have equal rights. And there's a lot of, like, you know, can you. Can you just talk about that a little bit and what that does to the sexual dynamic?
Jason Lange: Absolutely. So, I mean, these stages of relationship, every couple can, to some extent, move through them. And culturally, we move through them. So stage one is kind of how things were based on biology in a lot of ways. Right. And survival. And you can think of stage one as kind of me oriented. I'm going to do whatever it takes to survive. So a lot of relationships, traditional relationships, man and woman, were actually kind of contracts. Right. You're gonna pass on my lineage. You're gonna, you know, father my children, and I'm gonna provide safety, and then you'll rear the children. And there was all kinds of things in that, but the focus is really on survival for each person now. That all started to blow up in the 50s, 60s, and 70s in particular, because those roles got liberated just through what was happening in culture and work and shifting technology and, you know, women not needing men to physically take care of them in the same ways. So what started to happen then was the polls kind of began to shift, and there was a cultural awakening of, oh, my God, look at all this awful patriarchy and how much men have dominated women in relationship and culturally since then. Like, oh, we got to become aware of that, and we need to make things a little bit more equal and fair. And so it was in that period, and this is what really is the essence of stage two, that the shift becomes more towards away from just me to also you. So it's about your feelings, your safety, your X, Y and Z, and equality and fairness becomes a huge part of that meaning. Well, just because I have this biology and you have this biology doesn't mean we have to do things this way. Right? We're equals, so we can each do this, we can each do that. And the development of that and how it's kind of come through culture and why this is an important growth path on the way to stage three, which we may talk about another time, is that for men, right, coming out of stage one, you have to cultivate your feeling body, your emotional body, your ability to relate. And for a lot of women coming out of stage one, it's more important to cultivate their professional life, their agency, their ability to function independently in the world. And so the energies just shift, right? A lot of men start. I mean, the classic of this is, right, a guy grows his hair out long, starts drumming, smoking weed, gets kind of soft. There's actually a soft feeling energetically in his body. And then a woman goes out and gets a job and kicks ass as a CEO and is leading a massive corporation and wearing power suits. And there's much more of an edge there, right? There's much more of a kind of hardness there. So that's kind of what's happened culturally. But then we see that showing up in the relationships. We see it, you and I, Mel, and the guys we coach. Violet sees it in the women she coaches, and then Violet and I see it in the couples we coach in that oftentimes the men are more kind of in their feminine energy. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's actually a great developmental step. It's extremely important. And women are a little bit more in their masculine energy, right? I mean, we just see this all over the place right now. Education scores, graduation rates. Like, women are just kicking ass in the kind of more executive functioning area of the world. And what that really starts to do, though, is a lot of times, women are kicking ass all day and men aren't, and then they want to date. And this is where the reverse polarity piece comes in. And you can think of this as. Right. The idea behind polarity is just. We all know the concepts of two magnets, right? If you have a positive end and a negative end, things, if they're different, they'll pull towards each other. There's attraction there. But if you put two positives next to each other, two negatives, they kind of repel each other. And so what happens in reverse polarity is each person is kind of going against their nature, and it kills the charge. Now, you can do this consciously, but that's a more advanced practice for other things. What's really happening in stage two is it's happening unconsciously. And so the energetics get messed up. And then this is also where stage two couples tend to be a little bit More aware. And again, the focus is on fairness. So there's a lot of like learning tools and techniques and structures for processing things. You know, we've. I've certainly have men in my men's groups who are in relationships where it's, it's just like endless processing. Every little wound or trauma has to be talked out and explained and processed. And that with the reverse polarity, kills the energetics even more.
Melanie Curtin: So when you're talking about structures and stuff, we're like nonviolent communication. We're going to use nonviolent communication to work through our stuff. We're going to.
Jason Lange: It's a great example, imago therapy.
Melanie Curtin: Wow, that was beautiful. I think one of the things that I really heard in that is the practice of it, that it's not like a static thing. We're here all the time, but it's something we can move in and out of and we have access to. And the taking out the trash example, I think, is a good example of that's an activity that can be done from a stage two place. She's shaming him for not doing it, or she's nagging him, or he's, you know, whatever, resisting it, or, I don't know, something around it, versus, I choose to do this. This is a gift to my partner. I want to provide for my woman. I'm gonna do this. Like, if there's, like, an attitude and an energy and a leadingness about it, I would imagine that it, you know, in a. From a stage three perspective, that's. That feels different. And it's.
Jason Lange: It can be super subtle.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, maybe the same activity or the same, you know, thing that's happening, but the energetics behind it are different. And there's no. Yeah, there's no skipping. Like, I'm glad you mentioned role playing because, you know, it's sort of like, to me, it's like, these are sacred journeys. Like, the feminine reclaiming her pleasure is a big deal. It takes energy, it takes effort, it takes practice. And the masculine reclaiming his power is a big deal. It takes energy, it takes effort, it takes practice. You can't just skip that step and be like, oh, I get it. Stage three, I'll just be in my power. Like, no, you gotta actually go through and, like, do that. And that, to me, is like, that's Personal growth. Right. Like, it takes. It takes energy to be able to get there, I guess is my point. You can't just be like, oh, let's just do stage three now. Like, it's not something. It doesn't work like that. You can't fake being in your power, and you can't fake being in your pleasure.
Jason Lange: Totally not. I think that's a. Exactly. This is an actual practice. And another marker, I would say, of the stage three is that it's much more vulnerable. Meaning stage three is. The emphasis is not so much on just total safety in stage three is like, I'm willing to be hurt by you to serve our relationship. I'm willing to be. To open myself up so much that I can't protect myself anymore, which means taking risks. Right. And so, you know, this is where it's. This is where it's a conscious, intentional practice, right. With someone who you're in an agreement with. Like, yeah, we want a stage three practice. This isn't, you know, first date kind of thing. But stage three is where sometimes we have agreements, but what would truly serve love or consciousness in the moment is to go a little bit past them. Right. My partner might say, we're in a fight, like, don't touch me or get out of here. And I might say, no, I'm staying. Right. Which is actually in stage two would be a huge violation. But in stage three, you know, what does our relationship need right now? Not me, not her. It needs us to stay in this room together. Would be an example of that. Now, the thing about playing at stage three is that can go horribly wrong. I mean, there's just a lot more risk in that, but there's also potentially a lot more reward in the right context.
Melanie Curtin: In my experience, stage three is more about love than about, like, duties or accomplishments. It feels like in stage two, for the trash example, like, okay, she cleaned the bathroom, so I'm gonna take out the trash. Or she did this, I'm gonna do that. It's kind of like we need to be tit for tat with each other. Or if Jason and I were going to Burning man, and he was like, okay, so I'm gonna pack up the car, and you can do all of this stuff. Like, I mean, we could look at it that way, but it wouldn't feel very good versus me being like, okay, I'm gonna look at our outfits. I'm gonna pick out some fun stuff. I'm gonna make our meal plans. And it's more like we're giving each Other our gifts. And it's really adding energy versus just being neutral the whole time. I like that you spoke to that, because I think there's this. I think it's really hard, actually. You know, Einstein says you can never solve a problem from the same level of consciousness that created it. And I. There's a, There's a level of consciousness of stage two that, that very much does reflect a lot of our culture. Like, I'll do this for you, and then you'll do something for me. And it's hard to get out of that paradigm, you know, if you're, if you've been in it for a really long time. It's like, it's hard to even conceptualize, like, what the hell it would even. It would even be like, to graduate beyond that. It's sort of like, I don't even know. I don't even know what that would be like. I, you know, that's so foreign. But I like that example because it's sort of like coming from your essence. Right? It feels like to me, that's what it is. It's coming from your, your essence or your creativity. And, you know, especially for the, for the feminine, from your pleasure. Like, this would feel good to me. Like, this, this sounds fun. Like, I'm gonna do this for us. And it's delightful to me. And yeah, there's just a. There's a different energy to it than, like, okay, yep, you've got that. I've got this. Like, it's very much like you can hear it in our voices. Our voices change feminine when we're in our masculine versus when we're in our feminine. Like, and I think, yeah, I'm just wondering, Jason, if you can speak a little bit to. To that experience of, of doing things or providing things as a gift rather than an obligation. Because I, I, I hear that from. From men a lot. Like, I feel like I can't do anything right. Everything just feels like, yeah.
Jason Lange: Well, I think another way to speak towards stage three also, which is, you know, a little more esoteric, is it's also where it becomes devotional. So these are devoted. We're practicing. I'm practice being in my masculine. Practicing being in my masculine as a devotional act to Violet, and she's being in her feminine as a devotional act to me. And there's even another layer on. Under this where. And it's not just about me and Violet. It's about the actual. These energetics, like, the archetypes of these energies of, like, I am the Masculine being devotional to the feminine. And there's like another layer of that perspective that I think comes online a little bit at stage three, where we're not just gifting the person, we're gifting the whole history and lineage of these different energies. And it becomes a way. You know, I think another way to think of this is how we can literally put delight in our partner's body is, you know, when I'm really in my embodied kind of third stage masculine, which, you know, sometimes is more than others, and when violets in her embodied third stage feminine, like, it actually puts delight in us, right? There's. There's something that happens at a nervous system level in a type of energetic exchange that's so powerful and so energizing and healing at the same time that, yeah, it becomes an actual practice of just being devotional to that even of, like, wow, when I really step into this, look what happens.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I'm glad you touched on that, because I do think, you know, sacred sexuality, it's about more than just your individual partner. It's about the energy that's coming through them. Like the divine feminine that's coming through her in that moment, or the divine masculine coming through you. It's like, wow, look at that. That's incredible. And look at who we are together. That's incredible. Instead of just this one particular person, it's. It's. I mean, it's kind of both at the same time because it's like, this is the per. You know, this is my person, this is my lobster. Like, this is my partner. And then there's this bigger thing too that's happening.
Melanie Curtin: Yeah, yeah. And I think an easy one thing I want to sort of leave, leave with, as an example is when the masculine is able to bring up hard conversations and hold space for them. To me, that's very powerful and very much neither toxic, which is, I'm going to ignore. I'm going to ignore you or give you the silent treatment, or I'm going to hit you. And it's not stage two, which is passive holding back. I don't really want to know what she's going to have to say about this. I can tell that there's something wrong, but I don't want to ask about it because I'm afraid of what's going to happen to me. That's a very powerful example of lead the conversation. Like, I want to talk about what's going on with us. I want to check in, how are you doing around? Fill in the blank. Whether that's like, you're thinking of being exclusive with someone or you can feel that your partner shut down yesterday and they've been kind of quiet, like, lead the conversation. It's so. I think that generates a lot of polarity in a dynamic when the masculine is willing, quote, unquote, willing to go there. Like, it's like, willing to go there. Like, that's so powerful. And I feel like when you're really willing to go there, like you said, Jason, it's when you've developed yourself to the point where you can breathe all the way down into your body and feel like, yes, I'm willing to go there. Instead of like, I don't really want to go there, but I guess I will.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that was a beautiful expression of that. Just that being able to lead those conversations. The masculine gift is freedom. So oftentimes, you know, in third stage practice, if we can feel our partner is not free in her body to feeling the flow of love, the directive is to go in and find out what's going on, to bring that freedom. Lead a conversation, twirl her around the kitchen, order her some ice cream so it shows up in the middle of a podcast.
Melanie Curtin: Is that true? That's really fucking cute if that's true. I just got very excited.
Jason Lange: Mother's Day is starting early.
Melanie Curtin: That is super cute. Oh, I think we should end there. That's, like, so perfect. Do you guys have any final thoughts or intuitive shares about second stage, moving into third?
Jason Lange: It helps when you can be around other people practicing it. So it's one thing for us to talk about it, but even my ability to talk about it's way more limited than my felt body experience. Of it having been in places where we've seen couples and experienced the energies ourselves. So, you know, find ways to practice.
Melanie Curtin: And same for women, I think, because there is so much talk out there about vulnerability. A lot. Brene Brown and other teachers, women just think, okay, well, you know, I'll just be vulnerable or I'll just set a boundary or I'll just find my pleasure. And they don't realize that it's an art and it's a practice and you can't learn it in a book. And you need to be around other women who can teach you that, because you can't. A man can help bring out your femininity, but he can't teach you your femininity. Yeah, tribe. That's what I heard in that. Find a tribe. Find your tribe and find teachers, find role models, find mentors and work with them. Investors, invest in your future. Hey, guys, this is Mel and this is Jason.
Jason Lange: You've probably heard me on at least a few episodes by now.
Melanie Curtin: And we coach together in part because we know that it's when the masculine and the feminine come together that we are the most powerful. So we wanted to let you know about a free training that we put together for you guys.
Jason Lange: It's about how to take back control of your love life. We are absolutely inspired to help guys like you take all of the amazing ideas that Mel has introduced to you on this podcast and actually put them into practice, bring them into your life to create lasting change.
Melanie Curtin: So if you're interested in that, just go to Evolutionary Men Training to sign up. If you've been looking for a way to go a little bit deeper than just this podcast, this is the opportunity.
Jason Lange: For you again, that's Evolutionary Men Training, and you're going to get a much deeper dive with Mel and I.
