Successful but Lonely (with Jason Gentile)

Jason Lange: All right, and welcome back. I am pumped to have my buddy Jason Gentile on the show today, who's a men's work facilitator, leader, husband, and father of three who has spent over a decade immersed in transformational men's work. He facilitates ongoing men's circles and immersive weekend experiences through Remarkable Men's Practice and serves on the board of HumanMen, an organization dedicated to helping men.

Jason Lange: Find meaningful brotherhood beyond any single methodology or organization. And outside of men's work, Jason is a director in the natural foods industry, bringing a grounded perspective on the intersection of professional leadership, marriage, fatherhood, and personal transformation. His work focuses on helping high-functioning men move beyond fear, shame, and emotional isolation toward greater self-leadership, deeper relationships.

Jason Lange: and more fully lived lives. Right in Target for this episode for longtime listeners. And yeah, super excited to be here with you today, Jason. We met like a lot of my recent guests at the Big Tent conference recently and have had a a few opportunities to hang out locally here in Colorado over these last I guess months now. And very excited to have you on the show, my man.

Jason Gentile: Yeah, Stoke is high. I appreciate it. Thanks for thanks for getting me on, man.

Jason Lange: Yeah, and it's so great because we you know, in a lot of ways, anyone who just heard your description be like, that's basically all the stuff I always talk about. So it's super fun to have someone else right here in the space that has been walking the walks, so to speak. And yeah, I wanted to start with kind of getting your cut on, you know, the men you're most lit up to work with these days and kind of some of the misconceptions.

Jason Lange: you see out there in terms of what what kind of men even end up doing this kind of work that you lead, I lead, etcetera.

Jason Gentile: Love the question. Firstly, I gotta say there's not a one size fits all answer to that. But the thing that comes to mind for me from my heart is it's not men that are broken necessarily, right? And you know, that's a that's a loaded statement in and of itself, which we can unpack. But but men that are doing well, right, in their lives on on paper, maybe,

Jason Gentile: But if you really got behind the mask, if you went beyond that resume, there's gonna be a lot of stuff that they might not say, they might not tell someone. And this work is a lot to to to those men, for sure. And those types of men, especially leaders, you know, if you're already a leader in your marriage, a a leader in your organization, a a leader in whatever it is that you're doing.

Jason Gentile: it's really important to do this inner work so that you can actually show up well for your family, for for your partner, for your children. and so for me, those are the men that I'm the most passionate to work with because they really have skin in the game at this point and they have other other lives that they're somehow responsible for or a steward of in in some way. And if they don't show up, it causes pain.

Jason Lange: Yeah, that's such a real thing that I've experienced and seen in the guys I work with. And I just want to highlight, I think part of what you're speaking to is sometimes the unseen pain of these men, in a sense, right? Because it's like, if I'm outwardly successful, I I've got the family, I've maybe I got a great career, I'm making some money, what do I have to complain about as a man? And

Jason Lange: In our culture, right? We you and I have talked offline certainly about the provider trap, right? There's just a lot of default masculine culture is, well, as long as you're providing, you're doing well. But what that doesn't get to is some of what's going on inside, right? And certainly something that I think both of us have probably noticed. And what brings a man to this work when, yeah, you know, a lot of those boxes in a sense are checked, but then there's something else going on inside of him.

Jason Gentile: Absolutely.

Jason Lange: Yeah, and what what have you found like in terms of what actually gets a guy, this is one of my favorite questions, to show up and do some work with you or go on retreat with you. because you know, y i in in our world it feels like men's work's everywhere, but the truth is it's still pretty small in the culture in terms of how many men are actually stepping forward.

Jason Lange: into this kind of internal journey. And, I certainly have my versions of what brings men to me. But yeah, I'm curious, have you noticed any themes or anything over the years that kind of underlines a lot of the men who show up?

Jason Gentile: Absolutely. Because to your point, I think a lot of men, even if they're in a tremendous amount of pain, wouldn't admit that to themselves. men that are in a tremendous amount of fear would admit that to themselves. I've seen men that that literally say, like, I I I have no fear. And it this is it's, you know, the most fearful man I've I've ever seen type of situation. And it's so so I think some of these real obvious entry points,

Jason Gentile: would be great if men would actually ask for help, but typically they don't. So what I've seen more commonly than anything else is is actually trust. You know, they have one man that they trust or one person that they trust. It could be maybe their partner that's like, hey, I think you should check out this men's work thing. at least in my experience, though, it's been more through some some man, right? Some man that like a man looks up to to some degree or at least has some trust and then

Jason Gentile: that man says, hey, hey, look, I've I've got something for you. I think you should check this out. And it's not about selling anything at the end of the day. It's it's a it's a trust. You know, I I trust you that you're gonna take care of me and that there's something here for me. So having a relationship with some man that is doing his own work in this space, I think is the is the most organic way actually that I've seen men come in you know, than anything else.

Jason Lange: Yeah, and I think helps get get over some of at least with guys I've worked with, some of the misconceptions about men's work is and what it might be doing, right? If if you just kinda on the outside, there's the jokes of, we're just gonna go into the forest and beat drums or sit around and crying. And that's still in the culture in terms of what people think the work is. And let me be clear, I've said this on previous episodes. Sometimes that happens, right? I've banged drums in the wilderness before. I've sat around crying with other men, but that's not all.

Jason Lange: Men's work is. But the trust thing, right? Actually coming through another relationship, I think is so, so important. And particularly for us men, in a moment in culture, right, where there's just so much information. There's this flood of stuff online, you know, do this, do this, do this. It actually really helps when it's a relationship with someone I know that's like, hey, I did this thing and it impacted me like this.

Jason Lange: Right. So maybe you might want to try it.

Jason Gentile: Exactly, exactly. Which, you know, is one of the reasons anyway for for me personally and my own journey that i I wanted to be on this podcast. I've been kinda under the radar personally on a lot of this work for many, many, many years. And a lot of that reason has been, there's so many others in the space. What y you know, why why do I, right, need to add my my piece to that? And this is a call, y you know, from me being in that position.

Jason Gentile: To to say, right, to all the men out there that maybe do need to speak about something, do it, man. Like your voice is valuable, and not in a narcissistic like you must do this for your mission or something. But it's but it's like, look, man, we all need to help each other out. And if you have something important to say, if you have something that's gonna help somebody, you gotta do that.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And so talk to me about you know, you named this already, but this this is some of the big stuff I think that hits a lot of these men we're talking about here. Fear, shame, the the tendency for us men to kind of oop keep it inside, keep it inside, keep it inside, right? Don't ask for help. Stuff I've certainly talked about before.

Jason Lange: Have you seen that show up, A, in your own life? And B, how about with some of the guys you've worked with?

Jason Gentile: Yeah, absol absolutely. And again I think it's the

Jason Gentile: The fear, even or or maybe not the fears, cause I'm about to talk about fear, but the the stigma that's attached to even those words, right? Fear, shame, like am I taking that on as an identity? Are these men taking it on as an identity? Am I a fearful man? Am I a man that is in shame? Like most of us want to say no to that to that question, even if there's absolutely flavors of that that are running through rampant, you know, different areas of our lives. so yeah.

Jason Gentile: I I definitely see it in my own life. I see it in the men that come in. but sometimes it's it's not the front door. And and I think that's the biggest thing to speak to here, at least for me, that again, it's not conscious necessarily. It's just like a it's a it's a, you know, maybe I'm unsettled or shit, maybe I had too much coffee, something like that. Like we we we can't call it what it actually is because of the stigma in society that those things are not masculine.

Jason Gentile: that those things will push us outside of you know the

Jason Gentile: the accepted version of of masculinity. So this this whole topic is is really charged, I think, right now. And I actually see it on both sides because there's those of us that are really pushing for this new look and, you know, whatever term you want to put, whether it's mature masculinity or you know, a more you know, man you wanna be, like w what what is that exactly? and is that someone that's like dominating?

Jason Gentile: or is that someone that's heart led? Like there's not really a clear answer within the, you know, quote unquote men's space work. And and I think that throws a lot of people off because we're we're trying to

Jason Gentile: remold what it means to be a man. And there's a lot of different opinions right now going around about what that is.

Jason Gentile: So anyhow, I I think even within that, the point on shame and you know, fear that you asked is who who is going to shame us? Who who are we afraid of? What you know what what's behind all of that stuff. And again, I think because the whole construct of masculinity is changing so much, it's a little bit challenging to know who's in front of us at any given time, even on on those topics.

Jason Lange: Totally. And yeah, it's so ripe in the air right now of w what are we growing toward as men, right? And I think that's been

Jason Lange: A big pain point, certainly something that was talked about a lot about at the conference of well, in a vacuum of a clear model for where to grow to, all kinds of garbage and trash can fill the space, as I will rather judgmentally call much of what's out there in the the kind of manosphere and red pill of like, we're just gonna go back to this fictional time in the past that never really existed, but was certainly far more of a a a dominance.

Jason Lange: Oriented culture for men over everything else. And yeah, you know, men's work, the kinds of spaces you lead, the kinds of spaces I'm interested in. This is where we're trying to discover what this is like. And to take it back to, you know, your kind of one-on-one thing. Certainly in my life, where I've often felt it is the unique connection I feel man-to-man, where it's like, wow.

Jason Lange: Whatever water this guy is swimming in, that feels good to me. Right? I feel his power, I feel his heart, I feel his presence, I feel his groundedness. And whether I have a you know big labels for that or not, yet I've certainly noticed, yeah, there's certain men I get around and my nervous system relaxes. And that's like, I I want a

Jason Gentile: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Lange: little bit of that. And I think that's kind of

Jason Lange: part of what we're trying to figure out almost retreat by retreat at this point in in terms of okay, well what is this? What is this we're cultivating together?

Jason Gentile: Yeah, yeah. And it's it's interesting too. So I've I've been doing men's work now, again in quotations, this whole whole men's work, like what is that even, right? Is a is its own topic. but this transformational work with with other males, right? but I was doing other transformational work for ten years before that, and and I had a lot of resistance to this idea of working with men. Like, why why would I even do that versus just like why put gender into this mix?

Jason Gentile: And and again, back to this fear, back to this shame. I didn't have good experiences with men, especially groups of men. I had good experiences with individual men one-on-one, but you know, like you're saying, but then it's like suddenly you have these men in a group, and it's it's it's it gets there's a a lot of destruction that has been caused, you know, and so there's this there's this big gap. first of all, I think in the culture that we're trying to

Jason Gentile: Bridge that that is like, look, we can be men in a group. we can be men in circle, we can be men collecting together, that isn't aggressive and destructive and that is holistic and that is healing. And so there's a whole narrative shift, I think in in culture that needs to happen with that. And again, back to the the speaking, right? Like we we have to speak it in, we have to bring it in, we have to make that happen.

Jason Gentile: Because who else is gonna do it, right?

Jason Lange: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and you the way you just phrased that makes me think of it was probably a couple of years ago now, right? Sophie Strand's book, what was it called? The Flowering Wand, right? Which

Jason Gentile: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: kind of came out to

Jason Lange: Start to recontextualize in the the story of masculinity in that, yeah, most of the time now masculinity is associated with like a destructive cutting kind of element. And certainly I would say big groups of men. When we think of the idea of a big group of men, we're thinking of some kind of destruction, war, chaos a lot of the times, right, in our culture. and her

Jason Lange: Her book was really pointing to, well, go back far enough and hopefully where we're rounding back to, there's a version of masculinity that's actually generative. It's creative. It's about creation and generating something positive. And I think that's probably another way for me to think about what the men's work movement can be right now. And at a very personal level for a lot of men, to start to recontextualize

Jason Gentile: Yeah.

Jason Lange: what it means to be in a group of men, which for a lot of guys I work with.

Jason Lange: some of their greatest traumas and hurts have actually come from other men in group, right? That locker room culture, the all the gnarly ways boys and men can sometimes treat each other. So just getting back into a space with a bunch of guys in a room can be like, wow, my nervous system is vigilant. It's it's up for a lot of men when they first come. And then getting to rewire that story of, but that's not how it has to be.

Jason Lange: Right, there's there's

Jason Gentile: Exactly.

Jason Lange: these other experiences possible.

Jason Gentile: Yeah. Yeah. And beautiful experiences, right? That I mean, I'm

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Jason Gentile: sure we've we've encountered and the men that we work with and

Jason Gentile: And it's important. It's it's really it's it's important to make that more visible.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And to

Jason Lange: I think i in some sense as we start to recreate that in our rooms, so to speak, with other men, then we have the ability to start to bring that out into the world in different ways and retell these stories. And, it is a challenge right now. I over the last weeks certainly I've had this feeling left like, my God, there's this tender little flame of men's work right now that

Jason Gentile: Yeah.

Jason Lange: has has been kind of growing a little bit over the last weeks and months. And something like Cornell comes in and the fucked up thing is, you know, a fraternity is a kind of men's group, right? It's a kind

Jason Gentile: Yep. Yep.

Jason Lange: of group of men. And I'm like, my God, it's it we're like right on the precipice where all this stuff could get lumped together so fast. Cause that's another example of kind of the destructive power of when kind of unconscious men get together and there's not a whole lot of

Jason Lange: Just awareness and consciousness is what what's going on there. And so yeah, I I I just noticed in these last weeks I was feeling protective of like, my God, like if the shoe drops right now and this tender flame starts getting heat from the the the media, that's gonna be disastrous. And we do need to speak up in terms of like, hey, that is not all of it, right? What the kinds of things we're cultivating in the spaces we create is extremely different.

Jason Lange: From most of what's put out there in in in mainstream press.

Jason Gentile: Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's finding the finding the courage to really say that is not okay. Just,

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Jason Gentile: directly, not beating around the bush. And and it's that courage. again, for for me, at least just to maybe speak on the Cornell piece for a little bit, the you know, the the men that actually you know did the rape, okay. it's it's the other ones, right? For me that I got the most triggered by, that it's like

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Jason Gentile: How is it that all of y'all were on this chat and and you didn't speak up? And then I started, again, that was my own shadow work again. And it's like, well, where haven't I spoken up in my life? And it doesn't have to be something that egregious, you know, but it can be, it can be whatever. And it's, it's like, well, shit, that I don't speak up a lot, actually, you know, in in my life. And and in those minor instances, if I don't have the courage to do that, then if presented with something big, like, what would I do?

Jason Gentile: what would I would I speak up? And it's and so I think that unsettledness is something that all of us need to feel and all of us really need to embody and and be like, well, well damn, like it's not these guys over here and then me in my little ivory tower, it's like, no, man, like we we all we all have responsibility in in in this shadow work, ultimately is is how I see it and and just exposing the things that are not aligned.

Jason Gentile: within ourselves and and where we hold back and again back into the shame and sort of like aren't quite ready to ruffle the feathers

Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.

Jason Gentile: because of whatever you know that will be considered an outsider. So like you said, it w we gotta protect we gotta protect that little flame.

Jason Gentile: We gotta protect it.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Yeah. the Cornell even came up in a men's group I'm in recently and it it was extremely uncomfortable, right? We tend to on our group not most groups I'm in I I tend to stay away from

Jason Lange: conceptual discussions of we're going

Jason Gentile: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: to talk about what's going on in politics or culture. And it's about personal lives and what's going on. but a man brought this in and it actually felt important for us to talk about. And it was contentious in the group because some guys were like, this is not why we meet. we don't meet to talk about these kinds of things. And then it was like, well, if we don't talk about it, who the fuck will? Right? Like this was part of like, we have to take responsibility. Like it's it's great to think that's just over there. But if

Jason Lange: Us in this space aren't willing to talk about this. literally, who's going to? No, none of those guys are going to take responsibility in a sense. So it's on us who have a little more skin in the game to step in and start to talk about and look at, what what was really going on here. And I think I think you're right. I'm so I'm so with you. And I've been on my own journey of what does it mean to I'll put my voice out there. And, you know, it's funny over the

Jason Lange: the last years on social media in particular, I I have my my my reaction sometimes to the more divine masculine, the the way we talk about we need the divine masculine and all that. And I do think we're actually at a moment in our culture where I think one of the big things that's missing is voices to step in and say, don't fucking do that. Don't don't do that. Stop it. Like

Jason Lange: it it it it sounds ridiculous, but in a parental no, w some limits need to be set here on what behavior is considered okay and what is not. And I do think that's an area where a lot of men have been dropping the ball in particular. And, you know, the feminine women have been like trying to step in and they just need some support, right? Like, hey, let's get unified in this voice as to what's okay and and and what's not.

Jason Lange: In that, across culture, I think one of the things we've lost in the last two decades is, something that's so important to the work we talk about, which is accountability, right? Which is not

Jason Gentile: Yes.

Jason Lange: you did something wrong, now you're a horrible person, but it's hey, what happened there had a huge impact. How are you going to help bring it back to harmony, to repair, to, to, to learn from that experience? And that has just

Jason Lange: Fallen off the rails in our culture, in my opinion.

Jason Gentile: Yeah, yeah. And and to your point, and on different approaches, right? And at least for me as I've seen the role in in men's work or or more the masculine practice is accountability, but in a in a direct way. I'll I'll give like a a small aside. So I had a dentist appointment last week, and I'm not the best at flossing my teeth, right? Many of us probably are are not. And the dental hygienist is in there

Jason Lange: Ha ha

Jason Gentile: and kind of like very passively being like, Yeah, you know, should probably you should probably

Jason Gentile: Floss your teeth more because yeah, you know, whatever.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Jason Gentile: finally the dentist comes in and he's just like, dude, like what is going on? I'm about to scrape all this plaque off your teeth. This is gonna hurt a lot because you're not you're not fucking doing this basic thing, man. And I was like, damn, like, yes, you know, you're right. But like I feel like we've lost the courage to speak directly on some basic shit. And that that has to change.

Jason Gentile: That has to change. And for me, that's a lot of this that's the masculine role that you're talking about of creation, of, of preservation, of we we can't kind of like politically walk on eggshells around around some of these things. It's like, look, man, like speak. So that's my

Jason Lange: Yeah, and

Jason Lange: I love it. I'm learning how to do that myself every day. And yeah.

Jason Gentile: Me and me too, right? Like we

Jason Gentile: we learn as we go.

Jason Lange: And it does help though, being in groups, because that is a place where I get to practice that. Right. I I for me, I love the men's groups I'm in because it becomes very concrete in terms of if I'm in a moment and I can feel where I am withholding and not speaking something because my God, it might ruffle a feather, I might be wrong, who knows?

Jason Lange: week in, week out at this point, I get to have those experiences and I'm cultivating and learning to trust more of okay, it's not even that I have to be right when I share these things, but it's more important for me to bring it, it's better for me to bring it forward and be wrong than to not bring it forward, I think is what I'm learning. because that's how

Jason Gentile: Absolutely.

Jason Lange: I can be of the deepest service because when something hits or lands or when someone else is the one who offers me that kind of feedback and accountability.

Jason Lange: It really matters, right? When the dentist cuts through and is just like, dude, floss your teeth. get on it. I'm not gonna sugarcoat this. you're an adult. Let's let's do it. Right. so I don't have to get in there and clean things up all the time.

Jason Gentile: Yeah, yeah.

Jason Lange: and so yeah, talk to me a little bit about, what have you experienced or seen in particular in terms of the power of, you're someone like you said, you've been in a transformational journey for a long time, done a lot of self-work. And then you discover brotherhood in men's circles. what what what to you has been impactful about that format or that structure or that style of growth as opposed to some of the other things you've done?

Jason Gentile: Yeah, my favorite thing is I think of it almost as this like circle of mirrors, more or less, and

Jason Lange: Mm.

Jason Gentile: and each each man is gonna reflect back how he sees you. and you know, to your point, he some man may say something and it might not hit, but like if you've got, you know, six or eight men all all in the room and everybody's giving you these reflections, the sum aggregate of that at the end of the day is is gonna have an impact.

Jason Gentile: it certainly has been the most interesting thing for me with within the work is that it's not, you know, one facilitator or, you know, one person in authority that's necessarily like, you know, standing above but it's you're in this, you're in this circle, right? Of of like, hey, we all we see this, or or more specifically, not even in the we space, but the I, like a a man, will see something, say something, and then you and then we have to sit with it, right? And be like, hmm, is there is there something to that or or not?

Jason Gentile: But I got into all of the men's work myself right after I got married. And I I remember the first weekend I was at, I had this whole idea of of myself. And I showed up and just, it was something like 60 men, just reflecting back like what they saw. And didn't match. It just didn't didn't match my own inner image. And I was just like, well shit, like I there's the there's a big gap here between how I'm actually showing up and and how I'm like in fantasy land about my life. And

Jason Gentile: That's really valuable, especially with the isolation and the social media and and all this. Like we we are in our own realities in so many ways. And when you're in a group with other real humans, you know, reflecting it back in in real time, something really special happens that is very missing, I I think, in in culture at large, where everything is kind of bubble wrapped and again, everybody's kind of trying to.

Jason Gentile: Not ruffle feathers. At least the circles that I've been in, one of the standards is it's like you t you tell the truth. You say it like it is. And like like you said, sometimes it's it's it can get kind of like, ooh, you know, maybe this is a little this is kind of a lot. but it's worth it, it's real. And I haven't seen an arena especially like the ones that that we're speaking to, you know, you you alluded before, but like an ongoing.

Jason Gentile: I think is really helpful that's that's consistent. Cause I've also seen there's the pop-in type of groups, which are great in their own ways. but if you can get into something consistently with men that you really have to show up at whatever cadence it is, it could be every week, every two weeks, every whatever. But it's like you're consistently gonna show up and get these men reflecting back what they see. And it over time, it it makes a big difference for every man that that I've seen that's able to like

Jason Gentile: Handle that level of truth.

Jason Lange: Yeah, the way you just phrased that makes me think of, it really is one of the I guess you could say, killer features of of men's group in particular, in terms of it can be a congruence machine. And what I mean by that is the that that circle of mirrors, in a sense, can be a really potent tool for offering us feedback about.

Jason Lange: How we can get aligned with our inner identity and our self-sense and what's actually showing up on the outside. And sometimes those two things can be in some places really close, but in other places really off. But a good group through that consistent feedback, it actually helps us get, you know, more aligned. It helps, it has helped me get more aligned, right? In terms of I think you know, I'm thinking one thing.

Jason Lange: in my own mind about how something is. And then I start to get reflection if people are like, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And then I'm like, well, what yeah, there there's a gap there. And I have to update. And sometimes it's like, okay, that feedback is maybe a little bit off. But a lot of times it's, something how I'm relating to myself or this problem or this idea inside, that actually needs to update. And this new data coming in from from the the guys in my group,

Jason Lange: Often helps me do that, right? It was one of the things that really you know, I had a chunk of work maybe three or four years ago around just a deep cut of shame and self-loathing. I was totally disconnected from that

Jason Gentile: Yeah.

Jason Lange: guys just kept gently putting pushing naming to me, and then no, no, no, no, no, no, you and like kind of my thing would come back. And then finally I was like, wow, I they're right. I am I'm really harsh with myself and

Jason Lange: I had to really come to terms with with that and start to work that in different ways. And it took gentle, consistent reflection that I would have just minimized in other environments, I think.

Jason Gentile: Yeah, yeah. And and one of my kind of mentors within the yoga space anyway, he put something out recently about surrender, in general as a process, but in a positive way, right? Like the the surrendering

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Jason Gentile: to

Jason Gentile: truth at at the end of the day or or w whatnot. But this idea of like a flag, if you think about it, you know, the white flag going up, it's like, we would love to think we can just do it all at once. But generally speaking, that's not the way it works. It's like you kind of like put up the the tip and then, okay, I surrender that much and then I can surrender this much. And it's like, so through these groups, we're able over time just to finally actually get to the place where we're like, okay, I can just fully let it go now.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Jason Gentile: You know, and it's

Jason Gentile: Takes patience.

Jason Lange: It so so does take patience. And we were talking about with accountability, I think it's one of the few spaces where

Jason Lange: We can be tracked, right? Just very simple. This is something I see more and more now in the groups I lead and certainly have experienced myself that I think one of the unique textures of masculine love is just feeling tracked. While somebody is paying attention to me, my behavior, my choices, and what's happening in my life. And I think a lot of the so called, you know, the

Jason Lange: the male loneliness crisis and a lot of male pain out there is, and I hear this from guys I work with that, it doesn't feel like anyone's tracking me. I I could leave tomorrow and it wouldn't matter, right? Because no, I I'm not in anyone's awareness.

Jason Gentile: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And that's one of the great things I think a group gets to bring is wow, that that that feels like love, right? And and this is I think particularly for men, it's that flavor of love of wow, someone loves me enough to call me forward on my bullshit. Or where there's dissonance in my behavior or my choices, you know, which at first is like, ooh, yeah, you're right. Fuck, I don't want, you're right.

Jason Lange: And that that exhale you just you you you you put out there so brilliantly is often what I'll feel of like, once the truth

Jason Gentile: Yeah.

Jason Lange: is spoken and felt, it does tend to relax certainly my nervous system.

Jason Gentile: yeah. And it's and it's it's so wild too. Like I've seen time and time again, you know, a man comes in really guarded and is as soon as you do get to that exhale moment, you know, whatever it is, it's like suddenly everyone trusts that man so much more. You know? And and it's it's it's really beautiful to witness. It's beautiful to be on the other side of that, you know. As you're saying, you've experienced it yourself personally, but but it's it's

Jason Gentile: It's scary to to get to that place.

Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.

Jason Gentile: I think as a man to fully just be in that space of like, okay, especially like we were saying, in a group of men, right? And maybe you've done it

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Jason Gentile: one on one with a therapist or something, but it feels differently. It it feels very different, in a group of men that you trust.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And so pivoting a little bit here, talk to me about, you know, one of the things you kind of named, which I'm really curious about, is the shift from just self-improvement towards kind of self-leadership. And in your experience and the ways you you you you work with clients, kind of what's going on there and what's what's the difference? What do you see?

Jason Gentile: Yeah. So I think certainly there's this tendency to get in a self improvement loop, right? Where it's like you're always just trying to one up someone and it almost becomes this competition with I'll even speak for myself as I've experienced it. It hasn't necessarily been like the comparison game with with others, but it's it's with myself, right? And so I'll be like, Okay, well, you're doing great, but you know, you could be doing better.

Jason Gentile: But you get to the mountaintop and then you see the next one, right? And so there's this there's no ability in this quest for continued self-im improvement to to actually just embody our lives and just appreciate where we are. So for me, first of all, I like the self-improvement thing, I think is a trap. a different context, right? The self-leadership is like, well, you know what? Like my life is this grand adventure.

Jason Gentile: and I'm leading this adventure, and there's going to be many mountains that I'm going to climb. There's gonna be many things that I'm going to do. but but can I actually be present in those things? Can I actually appreciate those things? Can I, you know, do amazing in my job, but then go put that down and just play with my son? You know? Can can I do that? and to me that's the the self-leadership piece, more so than the just self-improvement, because the self-improvement is is is

Jason Gentile: targeted, I think, at certain areas, but it doesn't encompass an integrated view of one's life. so that's kind of my loose explanation.

Jason Lange: Y yeah, and it it strikes me as in some ways a a different kind of provider trap, which is this kind of endless growth, self improvement thing. That's certainly the kind of biohacking, even to the men's work space, the kind of transformational growth. I've kind of got sucked into it before of just i there's the next thing and you know, these days

Jason Lange: Again, because of things like this, podcasts, audiobooks, there is just so much inform. my, I gotta go regulate my nervous system. I gotta go do plant medicine. I gotta do all these things. I gotta do all these things. I gotta do all these things. And you can be on that rat race, so to speak, of becoming a better human your whole life. And just like with the provider trap, actually miss your life, right? The the relationships you have available, the experiences you have available in, you know, in in another

Jason Lange: It just i in some ways becomes another manifestation of the, it this particularly great masculine myth of once I X, then I'll finally feel X, Y, and Z, right? Once I get the paycheck, once I get the abs, once I get the hair transplant, once I get the wife. But it's also like, once I do enough ayahuasca, once I do enough of this, once I do enough of this, then I'll finally and

Jason Lange: Certainly self leadership in a sense, from what I hear from you, is sometimes just knowing and sometimes you gotta stop and smell the roses, right? And look at the other areas of your life as well.

Jason Gentile: Yeah, yeah. And and the other piece too that feels important to me is is choice is in there,

Jason Lange: Mm.

Jason Gentile: in a very significant way. When I think of le leadership at the end of the day, you're the one that is y you got a compass, right? And you're like, All right, I I choose I choose to go this way instead of just, you know, allowing the wind to kind of blow where it where it where it will. And

Jason Gentile: Flow certainly is is great. you gotta be open to the flow of life, but also, you know, be at the be at the wheel, right, of your ship, of your

Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.

Jason Gentile: car, what whatever it is, and and have some agency in in all of this. And again, to your point, it doesn't have to just be providership. It can be relationships, it can be any number of things. And and depending on your framing and lens, there's a lot of different things that you can point that at. and that's to me, again, where it becomes so exciting is it's like,

Jason Gentile: Great. I there's there's so much cool shit, y that we can get

Jason Gentile: into and and really just become the

Jason Gentile: the conscious captains of our of our lives, so to speak. And

Jason Lange: Yeah, that's such

Jason Gentile: It's nice.

Jason Lange: a great I I really like that frame because, you know, it it actually leaves space for I'm realizing, you know, this kind of sailing analogy is so great. because it's not just brute force. I'm gonna I'm gonna row against the current here and grind my way to over here. It's well, there's a draft, right? There's actual an energetic flow in my life. I can either fight that or

Jason Lange: Or I can learn to work with that and harness it, but it still needs to be channeled, right? If I don't have a sail, I can't do anything with that flow, in a sense. So I gotta have a sail. I gotta have some structure in order to capture that flow. And then we can kind of work together to get, you know, wherever it is I might want to go. And that fluidity, I think, is more and more what's maybe part of the water we're swimming in in men's work here of like, well, the old just.

Jason Lange: grind, brace through, kind of push against all odds, which so many men I work with. That is like never quit, never give up, right? You're just gonna do whatever it takes and damn the consequences to you, your body, your health, your family, your relationships. That's what it means to win. And what I hear you speaking about is something far more nuanced and

Jason Lange: Frankly, less oppositional.

Jason Gentile: It is. And speaking to the opposition point, the other piece too is it's like we're not the only boat on the water, right? And so it's like when you do have

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah.

Jason Gentile: all these other captains, like in that metaphor, it's like, well, no, like we can have this grand adventure together, actually. And then again, you get into the isolation piece of it because that's that's the other

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Jason Gentile: thing of self-improvement. It's like self-improvement. You know, it it's it can be very about about I, about me, about it's it's not

Jason Gentile: there's no community. And what's so cool about the men's work, it's like, all right, great. So what if I'm in this space of all these men that are really working towards their own self leadership, that are working towards you know, just being the best version of themselves, but not just for them, but for again, for all those relationships that go outwards. So you end up having this whole system and and community.

Jason Gentile: at the end of the day, which is what many of us, certainly I speak for myself, felt like I missed for so long. I was just like, man, just want someone to get me and it's in these spaces, you get there.

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the revelation so many men I work with in different groups have when they get in. I was just I had a call Monday night and one of the guys is like, It's it's so wild. We just have permission to become friends here. Like, just you're all my friends now. And and like it's it sounds kind of silly, but it's a real experience. So many men in particular, but I think adults is just the the way things get structured, like

Jason Lange: Becomes hard to build these relationships where we get known. And something like a men's group, retreat, we'll talk about, or program, that structure is creating some of the permission to let's go deeper, let's connect fast. It doesn't have to take forever. And let's actually know each other in the ways that often fills that void so many of us feel when we don't have community around us and when our life is just a, you know.

Jason Lange: parasocial flood of social media taking us over every day, which is so different than actually being in connection with someone who gets to know me, I get to know them, and we have a relationship that unfolds over time.

Jason Gentile: And I also wanna speak to something just so that it's out there. one of my best friends from college, we were living in LA. We lived literally eight blocks from each other. it would be like six months would go by, you know, that we wouldn't see each other, et cetera. eventually he does come to one of these weekends with me. We end up getting into a men's group together, and then we're seeing each other every week. But the point is the structure of actually having

Jason Gentile: the space there and it's like, okay, yep, I'm gonna do this. I have it on my calendar. It it really helps. it it helps like so much because otherwise at least most men, you're maybe trying to squeeze that stuff in between the rest of your your life. And frankly what happens is you just don't do it. It's like, well, okay, either I'm gonna go to the gym or maybe I'm gonna hang out with you. Okay, probably I'm gonna, you know what I'm gonna go to the gym, actually. Like ends up what happens.

Jason Gentile: So anyhow, I thought these things were ridiculous in the beginning because it was so con contrived. I'm like, well, why why why would I need a space, right? to get to get together wh when I can just do this ad hoc. But but it but again, that example of just i i reality happens and once you're out of high school, you're out of college, etc., you're really busy with life. And and so if you don't consciously

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Jason Gentile: choose this community,

Jason Gentile: It just kinda falls off and then we're like, Why am I isolated? So just speaking to that piece directly as well.

Jason Lange: Yeah, that it's been so true in my life and as I've gotten older and had kids, I don't have much time to socialize. it's just not the life stage I'm in right now. But my men's groups and I'm in a few, but they allow me it like I just tell guys like it's so damn efficient. Like that's one of the reasons I like it. I'm like, if I tried to keep up with the other eight men in my local group and doing kind of the one on one thing.

Jason Lange: I would see them maybe once a year. And frankly, I have actually solo seen them each about once a year. That's about how much I can do it. But the group allows me to keep in touch with them all twice a month. I'm getting updates. I feel very connected to them in their lives. They know what's going on in my life. And it's just extremely efficient. You know, it's about four hours a month. And I'm maintaining really important relationships to me that help me feel like I belong. I have community. I have a sense of place.

Jason Lange: in the world and that frankly, are the guys I call in in the emergencies when I when when I need to hit the back dial and whatever it is i in my life. And yeah, without that structure, particularly I I used to live in LA too, right? It'd be like just seeing someone was like traveling to Mordor and Lord of the Rings. It's like this thing, And even if they're

Jason Gentile: Yeah.

Jason Lange: eight blocks away, there's a just a certain energy to the that city where community doesn't necessarily happen.

Jason Lange: On accident, it has to be super intentional. And I think that's often what happens as we get older. when we're young in school, community is just there. It it's like you don't have to cultivate it quite as much, but as you get older, you have to bring more intention to it. And I think men's community, men's work, men's circles, men's retreats are a place where that structure can just help you get over the hump. it'd be like,

Jason Gentile: Yeah.

Jason Lange: it's hygiene. I consider it for my social life.

Jason Gentile: Absolutely. And y you said something that I don't want to skip over also about when an emergency comes up, right? And then it's like you have someone to actually call. Because if you haven't seen that person for a year or whatever, like you're you're much less likely to call whoever, you know, for help. because there's like so much you would need to catch up on, et cetera, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the beauty of it is it's like, well, no, I see this person all the time. I see these people all the time. And especially

Jason Gentile: given that there are multiple of them, it's like, well damn, something's going on with my marriage. I'm gonna call this guy Joe, whatever, because he's just he's on that and and it can be 30 seconds. we don't have to have a conversation that's going on and on and on. It's like you say the thing, you slam down the phone. you know, but but

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Jason Gentile: it but it helps and it gets us out of our heads and it and it gets us like out of fights with our partners and out of bad business deals and and and all that. And it's efficient.

Jason Gentile: Like like you said, it's it's really it's really efficient and effective.

Jason Lange: Yeah. And

Jason Lange: it strikes me, I mean, this was somebody in one of my local groups had this experience this year where, you know, he was never somebody who reached out in the past. It was not a habit he was in and it caused all kinds of downstream challenges for him. But what he discovered is, well, the beauty of a group is if I put out the signal to my group, in any given day, you know, in our group we have nine, which is pretty big, but one guy's generally available.

Jason Lange: And so he's gonna get

Jason Gentile: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: something back versus if I've only got a friend or two and I'm in emergency and they're busy and I call and they don't get back to me, I'm like, I I still feel kind of, you know, solo here. But the the beauty of the group is yeah, usually somebody will have some capacity to make some kind of contact and get back into connection, which doesn't always happen in those solo things. So it's just another one of the really I think great benefits to having

Jason Lange: This kind of cohort of brothers around you.

Jason Gentile: Yeah. Yeah. And maybe one more piece on just to bring the shame into it too, because it's and it's a flavor, just to give men an example of this. So that'll happen. Maybe you have a really good friend, but you haven't spoken in six months, and both of you feel a little bad that you haven't actually called the other one. But then because

Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.

Jason Gentile: you feel a little bad, you s you don't reach out and call, and then he does the same. And then another six months goes by, you know, whatever. So so it's like you get in these loops. and

Jason Gentile: Again, that's that's a fl a flavor of shame. I feel bad that I haven't called this guy or that he hasn't called me. So just to kinda play with, maybe that is showing up somewhere for for you.

Jason Lange: Hmm. Okay, well, I'm super curious. you've got this retreat coming up, and you do it once or twice a year. And I'm a big fan of men offline in nature doing men's work with each other. I think it changes men's lives maybe faster than anything else. And so tell us a little bit about the mountain, this Remarkable Men's Practice retreat you've got coming up, you know.

Jason Lange: D what's the experience like? What can guys expect? And obviously I'll drop links and all that in the show notes. But yeah, wha what is it you'll be doing with guys?

Jason Gentile: Yeah, yeah. Thanks thanks for asking about it. And for me, this is again how I got into men's work and it was a man I trusted. I went in twenty fifteen for the first time and was pretty blown away. we've got time in the woods, some time inside, time around a fire, and just connecting with real shit.

Jason Gentile: at the end of the day is is what's going on there. And we go on some adventures and eat good food and allow ourselves to be mask off, in a way that ends up making some pretty big changes for every man that I've seen go through it. but what I love about it, and again back to this this piece on

Jason Gentile: using our voice. this event is something that's very much like a word of mouth type of thing. Like every man that goes, it's like he knows a man that is gone. And so it's it's it's been like that. it's not to say that if you don't know a man, if you hear about this and you're like, damn, that sounds cool. I want to go check it out. Absolutely do that. but generally the community has been built or organically, you know, over the last years. we've had almost a thousand men go through the program, which is which is pretty cool. And

Jason Gentile: It's very special. So you'll you'll typically come back with some big change that you're gonna then implement in your life.

Jason Lange: Mm, I love that. Yeah. so it's not just a a weekend that doesn't come back with you. That's always the most important thing, I think, right? We have these big transformative experiences. And then how do I actually integrate that into my life? So I love that that's a a a focus there. And yeah, when when's the next one coming up? And then about just name again kind of when do they tend to run even past this one?

Jason Gentile: Yeah,

Jason Gentile: so right. Logistics, right? So it's the twenty-third, twenty-fourth, twenty-fifth of October. So coming up real soon. But then we've got another one in the spring. So typically we do one in the fall, one in the spring, and that's in Santa Barbara, California. So really gorgeous. The land is up there in the mountains and get a lot of stars at night, get a lot of

Jason Gentile: really just gorgeous scenery during the day. We've been up there in the rain. We've been up there in the, the beautiful sun. The whole place burned down at some point. and so we've seen it kind of like come back. So it's like a very the land itself is very special. and we so we go up there again annually and it's just it's become a really powerful space.

Jason Lange: Awesome. Well, super excited to have you leading men out there. You know, I definitely recommend working with Jason in this organization if you can. You can read about men's work, you can listen about men's work as much as you want, but the only way I've really seen change is when guys get, so to speak, in the room together, even if that's out in the woods, because that's where the feedback, the presence, all the things we're talking about actually happen.

Jason Lange: And so I'll drop links to that in the show notes. But beyond that, if people want to keep up with you, man, what's the best way for them to get to know you more and follow you?

Jason Gentile: Yeah, definitely. the best way is probably Instagram at this point. So it's and we'll just drop my tag in here, but it's just Jason Gentile with one of those like underscore pieces. But I've also got a website, artofwakingup.com. so yeah, I'm out there on the internet if you want to find me.

Jason Lange: Awesome. Cool. Yeah, I'll drop it in there and we'll we'll we'll we'll get it out there. Well, thanks so much, man, for being here with me today. Really fun talking to you and so cool to yeah, feel how aligned we are in the space and I I know there's gonna be more collaboration in the future.

Jason Gentile: Sounds good, brother.

Jason Lange: All right, until next time everybody.