The Power in the Truth You’re Not Telling (with Shana James)

Jason Lange: Alright, and welcome back, everybody. I am very excited to once again have a fabulous guest on the show. And today it's Shana James. And Shana is a relationship and dating coach. She's the author of the book Honest Sex and the recently released Honest Dating Guide.

Jason Lange: And she's the host of both The Man Alive and Practicing Love podcasts, which I've had the pleasure of being on each of, and was an amazing, amazing time. And Shana, I've and I have known each other, I don't know, probably a decade now, on and off, and reconnect

Shana James: Really long. I think it's a lot longer than that.

Jason Lange: Yeah and got got got even got to spend even more time with each other these last years at the Big Ten Men's Conference, which has been a a joy to attend both

Shana James: Yeah.

Jason Lange: years.

Shana James: Yeah.

Jason Lange: So I'm

Jason Lange: very excited to have you here today. And as we were chatting, you know, a couple of months ago and coming into this episode, some themes I was really curious to talk into you about and the work you do and how they overlap would be, you know, particularly honesty, power, and sex. The thing that I think you know, we all want more good versions of in our

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: lives.

Shana James: I love that. Yeah, it makes so much sense. And when you said honesty, I mean we talked about power, but when you said honesty and power this morning, it just got my wheels turning, right? About how amazing it is for people to there's there's a way that I think in our culture right now, power is often associated with dishonesty, or there's a way that people are kind of

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: playing like you thinking, I have to play someone to be powerful or to

Shana James: find a position of power and it's like, great, how do we find our own power within honesty?

Jason Lange: Yeah,

Jason Lange: I love that. I love that you spoke to the cultural moment as well, because I think that's one in particular that impacts men, right? Of what the all the cultural crap that is pushed into us as to what a powerful man is. And the many, many examples.

Jason Lange: we have of, you know, kind of the the ugly truth often underneath that. And,

Shana James: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Lange: you know, I think this is such a great topic too. because right, I consider myself a so-called recovering nice guy. I work with a lot of nice guys. You know, Dr. Glover's a good mentor and friend of mine. And I think truth and power and honesty, you know, are deeply, deeply correlated with a lot of the struggles of nice guys as well.

Shana James: Yeah,

Shana James: yeah.

Shana James: I was just thinking this is slight sidetrack, but I think it fits when I led the authentic woman experience, we would do an exercise with women where we would help them be able to say no because what we found was that, you know, it was it was a it was lacking, right, in many women's

Shana James: Not just vocabulary, but in like in their embodied experience of being able to get it out. And part of the context was that in in knowing we have the capacity to say no, or in knowing that we have the capacity, let's say, to speak our truth, we also don't necessarily have to use it, right? So you don't have to walk around in the world being like, no, no, no, you know, or that a woman who's scared on the street won't necessarily

Shana James: Have this really loud expression unless she needs it. But, you know, think about self-defense training and all those things, right? It's like once you know your own power, you get to hold that close to you and use it when you need to. But it doesn't have to be in this loud or dominant way. So when I work with men, I think, and I'm curious about your experience of this too.

Shana James: Right. It's like when men find that place of sovereignty and belief in themselves and knowing they are good no matter what they desire or fantasize about or all these things, right? There is that sense of sovereignty, power. I don't need I don't need to prove anything anymore.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Yeah,

Jason Lange: absolutely. I think it's in so many ways that's the heart of so much men's work and you know, what I like to work with men on is that, you know, that simple polarity of in between posture and collapse. What does

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: it mean to you know, and I would argue that's where our power is, right? I'm sovereign, I'm here. And I don't

Shana James: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jason Lange: have to pretend, you know, I'm not armoring against something because

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: certainly in my experience and I'd be curious, you know, with the many clients you've worked with in in your own life.

Jason Lange: One one of the things that had me avoid honesty, I would say, for a long time, was it's way more vulnerable too. Right? Because if I'm not posturing of like, hey, here's what I'm at, where I'm at, here's what I'm feeling, here's what I'm desiring,

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: I'm directly opening myself up to a no or a conflict or not being met in that. And

Jason Lange: That's vulnerable for anyone, I think.

Shana James: Yeah, I think we should talk

Shana James: about

Shana James: that. Cause I've heard so many men say, Well, if I'm honest, then I give up my power, or right, then then she or someone, or you know, oftentimes I work with men in heterosexual relationships because I kind of translate for the woman. But, you know, let's say,

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: like, if I admit that I'm attracted or I admit that I'm scared or all these things, then aren't I giving up my power? which I'm just thinking back to your story with

Shana James: Violet, Violet, is Violet, your your wife, right? Okay. I was thinking it was confusing your daughter's name.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, that's my wife. That's right. Good memory.

Shana James: where you actually got vulnerable, right? And said, like, hey, this is what's going on for me and this is how I feel. in some of those first moments and that that was really what attracted her to you. And yet there's that fear so many men have like, No, no, no, that would be giving up my power.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Well and that it actually I would love to get your take on this because part of what I hear you speaking about is right when we're not direct or honest. you know this was a big kind of eye opener for me as I learned kind of about nice guy and

Jason Lange: It's actually a w form of control and manipulation,

Shana James: Right.

Jason Lange: right? Well, I don't want to tell you what I'm actually feeling or thinking or desiring because I'm trying to get some kind of outcome.

Shana James: Right.

Jason Lange: And I think that withholding that or modifying it is gonna, you know, kind of get us both there. And yeah, what what's your kind of experience or transmission around, you know, the how honesty.

Shana James: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And control or manipulation relate.

Shana James: Yeah.

Shana James: Well, as you say that, I think about, okay, if we keep like peeling back the layers and going deeper and deeper, right? The I think you can tell me your opinion that it's scarcity that would have us say, Well, if I reveal this and this person goes away, I'm left alone, right? Or I don't get to have sex or any of those things. Whereas if we're coming from a place or if we recognize

Shana James: it it may not be this person in front of me. This, this may not like, where is the trust? And sometimes I think we have to again rebuild trust in ourselves, rebuild trust in life from some of these childhood experiences we've had, and not think, the 13-year-old experience I had of love is really how it's gonna go for the rest of my life, right?

Jason Lange: Ha ha.

Shana James: but if we're not coming from scarcity.

Shana James: then as we are honest, like you said, in that middle ground, then can we, I don't know, can we kind of tr walk into a place of trusting the right, I don't know if it's the right thing will happen. I don't know. We can explore this, right? It's like, but you know, I I don't believe there's one right person for us out there. But

Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.

Shana James: I also think we get very confused in these wound-based chemistries of like, I have to be with this person.

Shana James: 'Cause I feel it in my loins, right? Like my body is reacting.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: And so I think this is where I've got to go. But is there something bigger and is there a way that we have more power and more freedom when we recognize we get very attached to the one thing in front of us? And maybe that's not what's going to happen.

Jason Lange: I I love that. And for some reason it's reminding me of this this one throwaway line Dr. Glover said on a call I had him on with my community once a long time ago. Cause I think with nice guys and scarcity, like that's all a huge part of what's driving, you know, us. And

Jason Lange: He he ended up talking about attachment, right? Cause then because I I work with guys and I've been this guy. I come in then it's like, my God, I don't want to be too attached. I don't want to be getting too attached to this, too attached to this. And so what it can start to do is like almost shut down some desire in a sense. And

Shana James: Yep. Yep.

Jason Lange: he he he had this great, great line. I don't know if it's his or where he got it from, that has always stood with me and maybe is pointing to what we're talking about here, where he was like, having a preference or a desire is

Jason Lange: Is is different from attachment and said, because

Shana James: Yes, yes.

Jason Lange: right, he said it's not about being non-attached. You still want to, we all have a preference. It's just about knowing I'm gonna be okay no matter what the outcome is.

Shana James: Right. Yeah.

Jason Lange: So, right, if I'm early in a relationship with someone and you know I'm texting and I get guys that I'm so excited for her, but I don't want to get too attached, and da-da-da. So I'm gonna play it cool, I'm not gonna respond as soon.

Jason Lange: To me, that's very different, right, than what he's talking about, which is, yeah, I I do want her to like me.

Shana James: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Lange: And I understand that if she doesn't, and it's not reciprocal, I'm gonna be okay. I got my tribe, I got my community, I'm doing my work. And paradoxically, I think that that can free us to actually be a little bit more honest, which is actually more attractive often when I experience

Shana James: Totally. Which is actually yeah.

Jason Lange: it, right?

Shana James: Yeah.

Shana James: God, there's so much in there too. And right, and that I'm not gonna text her, I'm gonna hold back. That feels more like the posturing, the collapsing is like, God, I need her you know, I need her, I need this.

Jason Lange: Good point.

Shana James: And then coming back into again like I'm I don't wanna paint this as it's easy because you and I have been doing this work for decades, right, within ourselves where we're continuing to learn and continuing to less attention.

Shana James: Attached, more grounded, more centered, right? More knowing that we have what we

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: need and we're also not islands. I mean, there's all these paradoxes that start to come in.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Shana James: So yeah, it's it's so interesting to think about: like, all right, so you start to date someone, and what is it like to actually be able to freely express your desire without

Shana James: expressing it as like I need you or you know if you go away, I'm not gonna be okay, which goes back to what you were saying, like, what what if I come to a place of knowing that I am okay no matter what? I mean, how powerful is that?

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: Yeah.

Shana James: Yeah, it's pretty wild, right? And then that sense of, okay, from there, I loved I think it there was someone in the past who again it was like one of those lines where you just remember it forever, right? And the idea that a relationship is a really powerful place to co-create or a beautiful place to co-create something. It's a horrible place to try to get something, even though like you know, we are not islands and we are giving and receiving all the time. But if we come from that place of we're co-creating something.

Shana James: You know, I've gone through divorce and many, you know, a bunch of relationships in the 15 years since my divorce. and when my partner and I first met about four years ago, we were both like, Hey, you know, we want this to work, but we're also at a time at an age where we know we are we're going to be okay. So let's not

Jason Lange: Mm.

Shana James: try to not hurt each other's feelings and not offend each other and

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: do that whole thing. Like

Shana James: Let's see if we can be as honest as we possibly can and then see what happens, right? I think from there there is more pleasure and, you know, more chemistry and more of that sense of like we can be known and understood and loved for who we really are, which goes so deep.

Jason Lange: Well yeah. I mean, as as you say that it strikes me an a great word for that is intimacy, right? That we get to feel a lot more intimacy. Just, you know, hearing the truth of my wife's heart doesn't always make me happy in the sense of the feedback or what she's feeling, but I

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: definitely feel closer to her. And

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: if I've learned anything from our almost nine years being married now,

Jason Lange: I prefer feeling close to her than not close to her.

Shana James: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason Lange: So I would rather know what's going on internally for her or between us that's not being spoken than not. Because when it's not,

Shana James: I love that. That feels so good in my heart to hear too.

Jason Lange: Yeah, right. Cause when it's not, I I just know what kind of painful disconnection that creates

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: in a sense, where there's all these projections then flying back and forth

Shana James: Yeah.

Jason Lange: and stories and resentments versus just the the the rawness of that. Okay, here's what's true for me, here's what's true for me. There might not even be a solution to this discord between us right now or potentially forever, but

Shana James: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Lange: better to have it on the table than not.

Shana James: Yeah, and to know each other. I mean, I think about even the other night where my partner and I were, you know, we were like, let's plan this time that we can be intimate. And then, you know, we got there and I was just sort of irritable and a little distant. And then, you know, we come to realize like I started crying about something and come to realize he was like, Let's just take sex off the table, like, you know, and and let's actually reconnect because we hadn't been in a couple of weeks. And I

Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.

Shana James: just

Shana James: After that, my heart and my body were so much more able to open. Like I had come to that situation, and this may be interesting too. I'd come to that situation thinking, he's been working really hard. You know, he's been rebuilding our back deck, which took like more than a hundred hours. It was like this giant project that we could not have foreseen. And I was like, I want to give to him, I wanna be generous, I wanna, you know, open and take care of him. And then I got there and I was just like, my God, this is.

Shana James: forcing something. And I could have forced it, but it also would have been a little more mechanical, right? And this way that I could have like put on a role. I'm gonna be like this sexy diva or something. And I think what I got in that moment, and and you and I have had these conversations about vulnerability, right? It was like, it was more powerful in that moment for me to actually be vulnerable.

Shana James: And it was incredibly powerful for him to say, let's take this off the table, instead of, okay, now I'm gonna go into my masculine and here's how we're gonna get there, and right, like as though

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: it had to happen in that one moment. And I think in life, you're a parent, I'm a parent, right? Life is fucking busy.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: It can seem like if we're not gonna be intimate in one moment, it's never gonna happen again. And it might be a little while too,

Jason Lange: It's so true.

Shana James: but also can we, you know, see that bigger picture in the moment and the

Shana James: The power of vulnerability, which many men also come to me saying it doesn't feel powerful, it feels like weakness. So maybe we talk

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: about that too.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Well, I think that's so much of the cultural pressure in particular we get as men, you know, man box, patriarchy. It it's all real. Like it,

Shana James: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Lange: you know, and it hits men and women and everyone, frankly. but it is a story that I think a lot of men carry that, yeah, you know, I'm just afraid to do that. Like the reasons we were talking about, right? If I tell her the truth and I'm giving away my power and da da da da. And

Shana James: Right. yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Lange: it's such a

Jason Lange: juicy thing to work. And it's interesting because right, it's one of those things I think you just have to experience. Right. So we can tell, we can see you and I can sit

Shana James: I know.

Jason Lange: here and talk to people about the vulnerability, power, da-da-da. But until you experience it, I don't think you realize what's possible there. And I've had to work with men for a long time around it. And i even my understanding of it changed because you know even just as

Jason Lange: Talk back to it. Like once you build the skill, it doesn't mean you always have to use it. And so, you know, I think it's great work and I've seen some ways it can go a little awry, the total radical honesty movement of just if it's if it's in your mind, you just speak it, you just blurt

Shana James: You just sp

Jason Lange: it, right? And I think that can be a an important skill set, you know, to practice at some point. So you have the capacity, but just because you

Shana James: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: have the capacity doesn't always mean it's actually the appropriate thing. And I, you know,

Shana James: You have to use it. Totally.

Jason Lange: I see that a lot with guys.

Jason Lange: in particular who who were maybe a little bit more like me initially that were a little more ashamed of their turn on or desire. So when they start to connect to it,

Shana James: Yep. Yep. Kinda goes the other.

Jason Lange: then they're just like, whoa, way over the top in terms of being

Shana James: Totally.

Jason Lange: really explicit or speaking to something the moment hasn't really simmered in enough to earn. And so just long and short of this, I I used to teach guys my definition of vulnerability would be authenticity.

Jason Lange: plus risk. So it's saying something true that's authentic

Shana James: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: that has a little risk attached, meaning I don't know how it's going come out. But I would then work with some guys who would kind of have this cranky authenticity and risk that would just shut down their partners.

Shana James: Mm, mm.

Jason Lange: and so the the I mean I'm just kind of thinking out loud here. The the piece I added was then softness. So literally

Shana James: Yeah. Yes.

Jason Lange: is the front of my body soft.

Jason Lange: while I'm sharing it. It's just so somatic. Just

Shana James: I like that. Yeah.

Jason Lange: it's so somatic. And it's could be the same thing you're saying, but literally it's not coming from that tone that tone. That's it. That's totally a great way to put it.

Shana James: Tone is different. Right. It's like the crankiness

Shana James: or the complaint versus the desire, the other side of the coin. And I think

Jason Lange: Yeah, there you go.

Shana James: about too, like in my TEDx talk, it was called What a Thousand Men's Tears Reveal About the Crisis Between Men and Women. And there was a part in there around sharing vulnerability and like that you can hot potato it, right? You can sort of like dump it and try to get rid of it, which is okay if you're ashamed of it or scared of it. or

Shana James: And and I think often that comes from like that question of am I okay? And can you tell me I'm okay? I don't know I'm okay in this moment. So I need you to tell me. So I'm just gonna like dump it over there and then you know, kinda like I just threw a bomb and I'm gonna versus that, I've come to recognize that as a part of my humanity, I'm gonna have some fear. I'm gonna have some, you know, I don't know, I'm gonna have all these parts that I don't

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: necessarily

Shana James: I don't love about myself or I don't, I don't, you know, it's not how I would want it to be, but I can love myself and know I am a human being and an an amazing human being. And yes, this is part of me. So if I can share it from that place of I'm not asking you to tell me I'm okay and I'm not like I don't know, op it's it's not the feeling of I'm opening up this pussy wound and I think it's disgusting. It's more like,

Shana James: Hey, here's this, you know, part of me.

Jason Lange: yeah.

Shana James: And I've come to at least accept it, hopefully love myself or have compassion for myself. Can you have that with me as well? And I think that puts you in so much more of a position of power, right? Power with, not power over, too, because then you're like, yeah, I'm good. I'm good. And if you're not okay with it.

Shana James: I I don't make it mean that there's something wrong with me. So I don't put up with shit. I don't put up with blaming and

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: attacking and all of that. And I also don't have to, on the other end, sort of just be unloved and not share all those deep parts of me that nobody's ever seen, because I think that means someone's not gonna love me.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I think that's such a potent those are potent examples. And I see this in men. And I actually, this is one of the things I I bring to men in terms of why I'm such a steamroller when it comes to men's groups and men's community. because I also think one of the things that changes for us guys that vulnerable share is has it ever been shared anywhere else?

Shana James: Mm,

Shana James: mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: And what

Jason Lange: I mean by that is like, you know, a lot of guys I work with, they come in, you know, whether they're married or single, their peer relationships have just flatlined, right? They've

Shana James: Totally. Yep.

Jason Lange: prioritized work, maybe spouse, kids. And so when they get dysregulated, the only person they often feel comfortable bringing it to is their partner. my God, I work, this might happen, or I'm feeling this, or I'm feeling that.

Jason Lange: And you know, as a as a professional who's done this and as someone who obviously likes to be present for others in my life, it feels different once when there's an energetic sense that, wow, someone's asking me to hold something that they can't hold themselves and have nowhere else to go with. It's

Shana James: Right. Yep.

Jason Lange: like, that feels like a a burden, you know, sometimes.

Jason Lange: And you know, I I choose it sometimes consciously, but in in terms of relationships, I think that can be pretty intimidating, you know, for a partner. But the same thing, and you know, this is something I definitely experienced with my wife. The same thing when I'm like, hey, here's this crunchy thing going on for me where I'm struggling, where I'm struggling in our relationship. It's really hard right now. And my guys are helping me figure it out. Suddenly she's like,

Jason Lange: And then she's like all down to be with me and like help me and but there's this feeling of it's not all on her to manage.

Shana James: It's not all on her yeah.

Jason Lange: And I think that's a skill we have to build, particularly as men, to because otherwise I've had enough guys experience like, I tried the vulnerable thing with my partner and she didn't know what to do with it and kind of shut me down. And

Shana James: Yes. Yes. Yep.

Jason Lange: now I'm like doubly scarred around sharing it again.

Shana James: Totally. Totally.

Shana James: Which is why I often I I think of sometimes the work I do with men as human practice, because it's like, okay, say it here first. Say it in such a way that you don't get stopped yourself, right? It's like you can be vulnerable, yes, with your partner. And I I highly recommend that. But if you're saying something like you said for the first time, you may not know that suddenly you're gonna have this wave of grief or

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: this

Shana James: intense fiery anger or all these things, or that you may not even be able to get it out of your mouth. And so right, what is it like to then practice where we can slow it down and where I can say, okay, what's happening right now? Like what what is really happening? Cause you just got really quiet or, you know, you just seem to check out or like, let's really work this through. So then when you go back to your partner, you can say,

Shana James: Or you could be a little more grounded, right? You're less thrown,

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: you're less kind of like the waves on the top of the ocean and you're sitting a little bit deeper in this place of okay, I I got myself and I'm also willing to reveal and be in partnership and do this together, but I'm not just throwing it at you.

Jason Lange: that yeah they I I can even just feel the somatic sense of being tossed by the wave versus you know having a little bit of an anchor like yeah

Shana James: Yeah, yeah.

Jason Lange: yeah I'm in a storm right now and I'm figuring it out and I'm inviting you in because

Shana James: Yeah.

Jason Lange: I want to feel close to you.

Shana James: Yeah. Yeah. And I want to speak to that reality that women don't always know how to hold a man's vulnerability. It's not something we're trained in in this culture because most men aren't even trained or like allowed, you know, as they're growing up to be vulnerable. And so I do work with women as well sometimes to be like, okay, let's pause and just notice that you might have.

Shana James: Disgust come up, you might have anger, you might have fear. I think oftentimes what's underneath that, I spoke to this in my TEDx talk also, is the fear that I'm not gonna be okay if my rock suddenly dissolves into mush. But when you, as the one who has been the rock, knows, you know what, I am this, you know.

Shana James: creature that can like form and reform and change. You know, I can be a rock and then I can be flowing water and then I can be fire and I can be a rock. Like I'm not losing myself. I'm just sharing different parts of myself. So if she has a reaction and she's like, shit, instead of taking it personally and now being like, there's something wrong with me, you get to be like, I can see that that scares you. You know, I want you to know I'm not going anywhere. And and just from my personal experience, I will say as I've

Shana James: practice this with men in my own relationships. I mean, my partner, he is so much more, I don't know, he he's like, he's stronger, he's clearer, he's, he's happier in these parts of himself where he's like, I've never been able to share this with anyone. And he yet, there's this way that he's resting more in his power because he doesn't have to hide those parts of himself.

Jason Lange: That and that phrase, you know, I I've never been able to share this with anyone, and the empowerment I

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: think that comes on the other side of the lived experience of and now I have. And

Shana James: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: guess what? I'm okay, right? I didn't die. Like the the

Shana James: Yeah. I didn't die.

Jason Lange: whatever that fear or shame was, you know, didn't play out like my nightmare scenario. Like you know, rarely does it can happen, but I

Shana James: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Lange: in in the types of spaces we're talking about, it's not so much a thing. And I see that, yeah, I I it's like filling up. Like it literally I'm able to take up more space when this thing I was holding in fear or shame

Shana James: Yes. Totally.

Jason Lange: is now not gripping me in the same way. So

Shana James: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Lange: much more frankly, just life force is how I've experienced it in the shadow work.

Shana James: I love that word. Yes. Life force.

Shana James: That's a great that's a great expression or a great way to to speak of it.

Jason Lange: 'Cause now it can flow instead of you know, as often is the case for me, being used to like grip. It's like

Shana James: Right.

Shana James: And then the men come back to me and say things like, I'm doing less than ever, and women are more attracted to me than ever. Right. It's like there because there is that life force and that energy instead of that I'm gonna shrink myself to try to make everybody else around me uncomfortable or not offend someone. And then that, yeah, I had that, you know, many, many guys come back to me and say, like, it's so weird. It's like,

Shana James: I'm not doing all the things or playing all the games I was taught to play, but there's something happening. And I'm like, yes, that, that is your freedom and your power. And that that true sense of freedom and power, not something that you're putting on or trying to become.

Jason Lange: Yeah, and you know, it strikes me we're we're pretty deep in here, but I haven't asked this in a straightforward way, but yeah, what

Shana James: Okay.

Jason Lange: would you, how would you define or speak to, you know, power and when someone's in it and when someone's not?

Shana James: Yeah,

Shana James: that's a great question. I mean, I often think of true confidence. So let me start there as the capacity to roll with, you know, and stay true to yourself as whatever comes your way. Right. It's like, okay, I may not know the answer here, but I'm gonna trust myself enough that I can find it, or we can we can be together in this in the unknown, right? Versus

Shana James: I've got to know everything. I've got to be an expert at everything. You know, I think about it as like that kind of relational leadership or inspiring leadership versus dominant leadership, right? Where, you know, you want to have the people in the room who can contribute. You don't have to be the smartest person in the room, and it's not all about your ego. So confidence, right? And then when I think about power, I mean, I think about that sense of choice and agency, right? Like.

Shana James: I know that I can I can take up space, I can act, I can co-create with other people from a place of my own honesty, and from a sense of, yeah, like we were saying, that the freedom to be fully here, to bring all of my life force,

Shana James: And then there is that like red the power with. It's like I can create the impact that I want to create in the world that is for the good of myself and others, you know, hopefully. That's that's the perspective. I think again in this day and age, it doesn't seem like that. It often power often seems very self-serving. But I think if we're looking at true power, it's how do I create good, you know, in the world around

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: me.

Jason Lange: I l I love that and that

Jason Lange: I think you just filled in some missing pieces for me around for a long time I would say, you know, to be in your power, particularly for men, is just to be able to move toward what you want. Doesn't mean you can you get it, but it's the I'm able to move

Shana James: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But you can move.

Jason Lange: towards what I desire and want. And I think you just added another layer I really like, which is while simultaneously not having to dominate anyone else or abandon myself.

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: Right. So I'm not having to take away your power to get what I want. And I'm not

Shana James: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: giving away mine, you know, to to get what I want.

Shana James: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Lange: I think is such a beautiful frame for it. And then the, you know, certainly what I think maybe we can just anchor into the field here as an intention of to, you know, expand the definition to really being about how much can you empower those around you. The more you're in your power, the more you're actually.

Jason Lange: in some ways just giving away your power so it flows to other people. And to me,

Shana James: Totally. Yep.

Jason Lange: that's an incredibly powerful person, right? When I see someone graciously a teacher or a friend or someone say, hey, I have this power and I'm going to flow some of it your way so you can have more agency in the world. And

Shana James: Use it in service. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Jason Lange: again, not while they're not abandoning themselves in the process, but I just

Shana James: Right.

Jason Lange: like, man, we need some more leaders like that right now.

Shana James: Yes, we do. And I love what you just said, right? Because when you're when you're flowing your power to others, there is it it regenerates, right? We get back from that as long as we're

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: not overgiving and, you know, completely losing ourselves in the process, which goes back to I think you were saying before, like vulnerability also including softness. And I remember I had the thought, it also kind of includes that grounding, right? Like I'm I'm seated here versus I'm

Shana James: losing myself or giving

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: of myself so much that then I've got nothing left. And then neither of us, if we're in a two-person dynamic, has me there, right?

Jason Lange: Yeah, okay. And my eyes literally going to the book behind you, honest sex.

Shana James: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And so first question that just comes to mind here, what what what's something that might surprise most people about how honesty

Shana James: Mm.

Jason Lange: and sex relate?

Shana James: I mean, I'm thinking about how one of the sections is how to talk about sex in a way that doesn't kill your sex life. I think you and I and the people we spend time with wouldn't necessarily be surprised, but I think many people are surprised that you can have conversations that actually spark desire and create more attraction. Just thinking about a conversation I was having with my partner about, you know, one of his desires around

Shana James: role play or something. And I was like making all these jokes. I'm like, I could dress up like an astronaut, you know. And he was like, you know, we were just the joke of like I would be completely covered over, like with this big helmet and this big suit or just the fact that like you can play with these conversations. When when you find a place from which there is, I'm not gonna say no shame, but less shame, right? Where you are sovereign in yourself and you're able to say like

Shana James: This is a desire I have, and this is what it could look like. And going back to something we were talking about before, I look at it as two sides of a coin, right? There's the desire and there's the complaint. And so if the complaint is, hey, our sex life isn't spicy enough, the desire would be, I started thinking about what might be exciting for me, or I'd like to talk about what could be exciting for you. And so having some of those conversations that spark.

Shana James: new ideas that spark some of that fire. so many people think of it like, well, I'm gonna kill my sex. I'm gonna dull it, right? Or I'm gonna over talk about it. And then it the spark's gonna die. So yeah, I think the surprise can be that you can you can create that spark with the conversations.

Jason Lange: I I I I love that so simple and I'm just thinking through my memory Rolodex. I'm like, yeah, no, totally.

Jason Lange: It's it's it's funny how once we get to that place, it's the word that's coming up is it's quite generative. Like more energy comes

Shana James: Yeah. Yes.

Jason Lange: out of it than I ever imagined of like I thought this was gonna be scary and like really painful, but no, actually like once we just

Shana James: Right. It actually can be

Jason Lange: get it out there, it starts to be playful and fun and the energy just

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: starts to move.

Shana James: Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite parts in the book is the debrief. and so I talk about like before, during,

Shana James: and after sex. You can talk about it at any point. There's different aspects or ways of talking about it that tend to work in these different moments. And I guide people to debrief after sex, whether it's, you know, it could be a day later, it doesn't have to be immediately, but really talking about like what did we what did let's say if I'm asking you, right? What did you enjoy?

Shana James: What was good about it for you? So it really starts off on this, you know, positive. What would you

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: have wanted more of instead of what didn't you like? Because that also

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: gears us more toward the positive. And then, you know, what's something vulnerable that you didn't say or couldn't say? And I find like people think

Jason Lange: Yeah,

Shana James: it's odd, but if you're hoping that your sex life is going to get better over time and you're not talking about those moments that went under the radar that

Shana James: Turned someone off or had someone be like, ooh, I didn't like that or that didn't work for me. And if you're not talking about what was exciting and being able to build more on that, it's like a hope and pray situation.

Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Lange: It's kind of just hoping the weather will change

Shana James: Yeah.

Jason Lange: when you don't really have any way to directly address it. And I

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: I've been shocked, you know, how challenging it can be for these kinds of conversations. You know, probably the place I've seen it the most challenging are partners who have been together a long

Shana James: Long time.

Jason Lange: Where there's just like, you know, 20, 30, sometimes 40 years of habit and stuff unspoken that

Shana James: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jason Lange: sometimes frankly feels a little insurmountable to partners when they come in of like, I just I don't see a way out of this.

Shana James: Yeah. And like you said, I think it's really powerful to be able to know what those moments are, know what the sort of the ick is or the like, this is where I can't see. I think in in the authentic relating days, we talked about it like as a plane of glass, right? There's all this paint that you're throwing on the glass.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: You can't even see your partner. And then with someone like you or me, we can actually talk about those moments and those situations and clear.

Shana James: them so you don't have to do it all with your partner. Some of them I think it's helpful, but maybe not all if you've got 40 or 50 of them.

Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah.

Shana James: Right. And then to also be able to find where what was your role in that situation? Because it's a dance between two people. And that's where I find people are empowered. If I know, that thing happened and

Shana James: She or he touched me in a way that I didn't like. And then I realized, like, he's not paying attention to me. She's not paying attention to me. But now I see, I never said anything. I never showed that it was a problem. and we're getting into tricky territory. So I don't want to like say anything, right? That's gonna have someone be like, well, it's always her fault, always his fault. No. But we've got to start to see how did I also create some of that? Not that I'm, you know.

Shana James: I I'm not taking full responsibility like there's there was nobody else there, but we're in this dynamic. And how do we not blame each other? But then see, look at this is the cycle we get into. I don't say anything. You pull away because you get nervous, cause I get more quiet, then

Jason Lange: Mm-hmm.

Shana James: I get pissed. And right, we go through this whole cycle and then we lose each other.

Jason Lange: Yeah, that's so so well put in you know, I think we talked about on your show Violet and Ice for a long time was the wall and the grenade. I

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: would just, you know, get the the immovable, untalking wall and she would have to amp up until a grenade to burst through. But what I really love about what you say is the is more and more bell I've been ringing of man, I think this is just the whole thing of, you know, that capacity to take responsibility.

Shana James: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: For

Jason Lange: and with just willingness to look at what's ours. And with most men I work with and you know, occasional couples, you know, my belief is yeah, it's never really 100% any partners. It's always co-created because

Shana James: Mm-mm. Yep.

Jason Lange: even if you know, the thing itself is happening on your end, I'm still choosing to be with you in that, right? There's a way I'm choosing that over and over. So I have some responsibility in that. And

Jason Lange: Every conversation I've ever had with my intimate partner, my wife for sure, if I start with my side, she is way more willing

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: to meet me in that kind of vulnerable, uncertain, sometimes crunchy, challenging place. But if I come come in with you always,

Shana James: You

Jason Lange: that's just game over from the start. And it's actually rarely true. I like to think it's true.

Jason Lange: If the times I have brought it then, you know, of course you can come back with evidence of times where it was not that. And I'm like, wait,

Shana James: Right. Right.

Jason Lange: you're right. This is my projection about what I think. What I do know is

Shana James: Yeah. And every

Shana James: yeah, every human I work with is like, but do I have to go first or like do I you know, or if it's a man, he's like, Why do men always have to do and women, why do women always have to this? And you know, and I'm like,

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: it's not that, but it is whoever can bring more consciousness to a moment, you know, you get to you get to lead. And

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: ideally you end up in a relationship with two people who can both lead and then two people who are both willing to come along.

Shana James: and take responsibility. And if that's not the case, you know, there often is some work to do or some people realize this isn't the relationship, right? Some people grow out of each other because one partner really wants to consciously engage and the other partner is completely unwilling. And I've seen that happen too.

Jason Lange: I love it, yeah.

Jason Lange: I feel like you just spoke to we have a mutual friend Robert who was telling me this phrase he got from someone he was studying with. And I feel like you just named the other side of it. And he was like, Yeah, in every relationship, each partner has to be able to regress into vulnerability

Shana James: Mm.

Jason Lange: in the sense of like a younger, sometimes less conscious, less disoriented place. which means sometimes the other partner has to be able to kind of just step in with a little bit of more consciousness of like, hey, that that thing we

Jason Lange: We do feel like it's happening now,

Shana James: Is happening. Yep.

Jason Lange: right? And if both partners have the capacity to kind of play that role sometimes, it's really seems like sky's the limit so far, at least in my

Shana James: Totally.

Jason Lange: experience.

Shana James: Yeah. Yeah. And I talk about mature honesty, like in the book Honest Sex, the whole first part is about honesty and that the deepening of honesty, going to those deeper layers instead of, you know, it's about the garbage, it's about the kids, it's about the money, it's usually about a way of feeling unsupported or misunderstood or right, those kinds of things. And so if you start having honest conversations from a deeper place.

Shana James: Like you said, then you're not pointing the finger, you're you're actually looking at and taking responsibility for what's going on. Then that's the kind of honesty that creates more passion and has people feel more safe. Cause we're not we don't open our

Jason Lange: Mm.

Shana James: bodies to each other if we're not feeling safe. Maybe that's not true. Eventually we stop, right? There can be a thrill in the moment.

Shana James: Or if you like that kind of play and you wanna, you know, play with kink and all of that and BDSM and like consciously that works and you can choose that. But for

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: a long-term relationship, especially, you know, if we don't feel that kind of safety, we're not going to open up. And then I think about Esther Perel's work, right? It's like we need that safety and the excitement. But I think most often the excitement in a long-term relationship doesn't happen without that sense of feeling safe, especially.

Shana James: I think especially for women, but maybe it's for everybody.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I've been I I would definitely speak to I think that's a way bigger thing for a lot of men than most people realize

Shana James: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Lange: that what it means for them to feel safe emotionally

Shana James: Mm, mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: in the relationship and even sexually, right? With the pressures of E D and P E and I

Shana James: Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Lange: gotta da da da da or I gotta give her an orgasm and all that. and I would totally agree. You know, I've I've obviously spent a lot of

Jason Lange: Time in the kind of polarity workshop world. And you know, there's so much there. And the truth is, I mean, you can learn most of it in a workshop. Like it, that's not super hard. What always in every client I've worked with gets in the way is the lack of safety. So

Shana James: Yeah.

Jason Lange: it's super easy to go into so I've never met someone, we're super polarized, it's great, no problem, right? So

Jason Lange: It's now I'm in front of my wife who I have nine plus years of history with,

Shana James: Yes.

Jason Lange: and whatever isn't feeling safe between us, that becomes the limiting factor for how much or you know how I I just put this recently on a a podcast

Shana James: That's beautiful, yes.

Jason Lange: is there's no there's no space for erotic tension if there's tension between us. Like that's it. So the more

Shana James: Yeah. I love that. That's brilliant.

Jason Lange: the more particularly for us men, the more tension I have in my

Jason Lange: body for one, you're gonna feel the moment you're with me, like, my God, he's wound up. It's probably not gonna invite you into the most relaxed state of your body.

Shana James: No, that is brilliant,

Shana James: right? That interplay between tension and erotic tension. I love that.

Jason Lange: Right. And

Jason Lange: then if there's unspoken stuff between us, so I'm not feeling safe, or you're not feeling safe, or there's resentments, there's there's no space for the erotic attention to really flow. So it's it's it's fun, it's sexy to get on Instagram and learn the polarity stuff, but then it always comes back to, I think what you're talking about is this much deeper, mature work to hey, what does it mean to really create safety between us so we can talk about these things? Because

Jason Lange: Like we said with even just talking about our our our sexual desires or dissatisfactions. Once it starts moving, then the energy starts moving. my god, now this is fun to talk about now, right? Like suddenly this thing that was a place of dread is like playful.

Shana James: Yeah. And it can be vulnerable too. But again, I the one of the examples I gave in the book was one person saying, you know, I want to play with ropes, and then the other person saying, No, that's not me, or I don't do that. Right. And the difference between that kind of I call it immature honesty versus the mature honesty of, ooh, that scares me, or I have this bad memory, or, you know, some way of being able to reveal.

Shana James: this is what's going on for me over here. How we create a win-win? Right. As opposed to just shutting your partner down and being like, that's gross, or I don't do that, or that's not for, you know, that's not what a strong man would do. It's like, oof, that's just, you know, you're cutting off someone's balls or whatever. You're you're like really shutting someone down. Now the on the other side of that.

Shana James: If you find that place of sovereignty in yourself where you can say, wow, that that was harsh, honey. I'm not gonna actually take that on, right? Like that's stung. I'm gonna feel it. I might have to go process it with some other people. But I actually

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: do know that there's a difference between what you just said and who I actually am.

Jason Lange: Just feeling the well radiate through my nervous system difference between what you said and who I actually am. Like talk about power. Wow. Being

Shana James: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Jason Lange: able to feel that. That yeah, I I know. You know, I'm open to feedback. I'm open to hearing from you. And

Shana James: And

Jason Lange: and I there's a difference here. And I'm not gonna yeah.

Shana James: Yeah. There's a boundary. There's a there's a clarity here. Yeah.

Jason Lange: I'm not gonna collapse into that. Man, wow. That's exciting to just.

Shana James: Right. Like your disgust

Shana James: doesn't mean I'm disgusting. Your disgust. There's so much more underneath

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally.

Shana James: that disgust. And usually I think it goes into a kind of fear or lack of safety or those kinds of things.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Jason Lange: And I mean the power of that, you know, I just feel and can feel in certain moments both ways in my relationship of when one or one partner can hold that deeper place of okay, your disgust is not my disgust. if I'm not collapsing into that,

Shana James: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: what that actually allows is for me to hold a space for what's happening for you to

Shana James: Yeah.

Jason Lange: get closer.

Shana James: Yep.

Jason Lange: And more intimate with that without making me wrong or you wrong. And then lo and behold, the crazy thing is, if that can happen, like

Shana James: Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: again, it's crazy how quickly that can turn into turn-on, actually, in a in a

Shana James: Yes. Yes.

Jason Lange: wild way, when it's like, wow, I'm not collapsing into that. I don't feel that, but something's really happening for you, and I really want to know about that.

Shana James: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jason Lange: And then I can be with that. Then it's like, my God, the the the moments can explode in in just

Shana James: Totally.

Jason Lange: really intimate ways.

Shana James: Yes. Yeah. Like and in with pleasure and also with that sense of being known and understood and right, that deep intimacy you were talking about.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Well, what a joyful conversation. I love this. What a so

Shana James: This is fun.

Jason Lange: easy, easy to talk with you. I feel like we could go for on for more hours. So we'll definitely do it again. but I wanna make sure everyone listening here knows kind of how to connect with you and follow what you're up to. And you you have a a a new offering in particular I want you to highlight. So I wanna just turn it over to you for a moment.

Shana James: Yeah, I've been working on this for a while. I just finished it's called the Honest Dating Guide. And it really goes through a way that since my divorce, I started dating in a new way. And I and I really I was having experiences where I was like, This is actually fun and enjoyable and I'm meeting great people. You know, I would I didn't f I I had some relationships. I didn't find like my who I would call my life partner until four years ago, which was maybe ten years after my divorce, but

Shana James: I was really enjoying it and I started looking at like, why am I enjoying this and believing that love can happen? You know, there were moments, of course, where I doubted it, but when other people are out there feeling miserable and defeated and anxious. And so I realized that I was I had created or started living this new way of dating that was really based in being honest and, you know, not having to make anybody wrong, but actually recognizing, maybe we're not a fit for each other. But

Shana James: Maybe we are a fit for something else. So there's a lot of nuances in there of like what are we committing to, as opposed to like, yes, we're gonna be committed or not. and how to start out a date in a way where two people can actually be on the same page instead of just sort of sitting in their own silos trying to impress, trying to prove, hoping you're gonna like me, and then that whole shit that goes on in our heads. And so I put that together in a in a guide.

Shana James: And then I have a little companion course that walks you through the guide and I was gonna call it a cheat sheet, but I was like, that's not the right, that's not the right wording. It's like a one pager, you know, you can take on a date with you

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Shana James: so that you can really have this new way of dating that not only do you not feel exhausted and defeated, but you can actually have be building the foundations of creating real love and make it more likely to find real love.

Jason Lange: I love that. How cool. Yeah, we'll definitely drop all that in the show notes. And such a pleasure being here with you. Definitely check out Shana, her book,

Shana James: yes. Same, same.

Jason Lange: her guide, her podcast. They're all really incredible stuff. And so, so grateful to have you as an ally in this world.

Shana James: Mm. I'm grateful for you too. Thank you.

Jason Lange: All right, until next time everybody.

Shana James: Bye.