Eighty percent of men who died by suicide in one Canadian study had reached out for mental health support in the year before they died. They weren't suffering in silence. Something else was missing.
My read? Community. Belonging. Six to twelve guys who know your name, track your life, and notice when you don't show up.
That's the center of this conversation with Bryce Mathern of Man For Real, and we covered a lot of ground to get there. I told the story of the awkward goodbye hug at the curb before my first time leaving home, what it pointed to about the household I grew up in, and what happened ten minutes into my first real men's circle when I ended up flat on my back saying hold me, hold me and crying like I was two years old.
We talked about the specific texture of masculine love that you can only get in a group: the kind where nobody needs anything from you, but they'll absolutely tell you when you've got spinach in your teeth. Terry Real calls it carefrontation. I call it the thing most men are starving for before they even know what hunger feels like.
We got into the fear a lot of guys carry into groups, that being real will burden the room. And I shared what I've seen over and over again, which is that when a man goes real, it doesn't burden anything. It lights the room up. It gives every other man permission to come forward.
And toward the end, we talked about that particular tension so many men in midlife know well: the building versus the being present. The once-I-achieve-this-then-I'll-finally-have-time trap I've fallen into myself, and what it actually costs.
My kids are six and fifteen months. I'm not saving the presence for later.
What would it take for you to stop carrying it alone?
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Host (Man For Real): Welcome to the man for Real podcast. We are here to celebrate men as well as talk about how all men can do better and lead our world to a healthier place. Get ready to get real. Hello, everyone. Thanks for being here today. I'm talking today with Jason Lange, founder of Evolutionary Men. Jason leads groups of men throughout the Colorado area. And today we're going to be talking about the power of men coming together to support each other. Jason Lange, welcome to the podcast.
Jason Lange: So pumped to be here.
Host (Man For Real): Thank you. You're bringing the juice today. I'm appreciating that. So as I start with a lot of my people that I interview and guests on here, I just wanted to get a sense of you and your journey as a man and kind of how that's unfolded for you. You've kind of moved in this place of being a man, a leader of men, and maybe some of how that's come about. And so, yeah, just maybe jump in wherever it feels important to start. Sure.
Jason Lange: Yeah. I mean, I think for, like, a lot of people, it starts at home. It starts when I was a kid. So, yeah, I was raised outside Chicago in the suburbs, kind of lower middle class, born in 1980, and really had pretty much all of my basic security needs met. Right. We had stable housing, we had food. We got to do, you know, some fun adventures and stuff. And I think, like a lot of kids, I didn't really kind of realize things were a little different until I started getting out of my family and house. So for me, it all kind of coalesced when I became a teenager. I'm heterosexual in my case, so I started to get really interested in women during puberty, and that was where I just felt off. Right. I just. I couldn't talk to women. I'd get super up in my head and really anxious if I got physically, if I got close to them, I would kind of get like, sweaty and tight and simultaneously, you know, I was a bit of a computer nerd. I was a little bit more in my head, kind of lived in video games and computers. First year of high school, I kind of met my first guy friends, started to get to know them and just noticed they related to each other differently. They would horse around, like literal horseplay. They would touch each other. And so I'm feeling all this pain, not being able to connect with women at all. I start seeing my friends begin to do it. I'm feeling really tight and often anxious in my body. And then I start to notice the men in my life are acting differently than I do. And then I often tell this story. I had this experience when I was maybe a junior in high school. And my friends and I were in a environmental club for high school or something. So we went to a Sierra Student Coalition kind of summer camp out in Virginia. And so my one friend's dad was going to drive us all out in the minivan and. And you know, I didn't quite connect the dots on this at the time. But later it was like so obvious in retrospect. So they come to my house to pick me up and my mom walks me down to the curb. Cause you're kind of just supposed to do that. It was the first time I was really leaving home for seven days. And right before I get in the car, like we hug and it's super awkward. It just feels really weird. And then I get in the car and I just kind of mentally note like that was weird. And then I go on my way and then my pain just continued right through high school, through college. I didn't even kiss a girl until I was in college. Didn't have sex till my mid to late 20s and was just really suffering. It was really numbed out. Addicted to porn, was drinking a lot at the time. And essentially by the end of college kind of had this sense like, I need help. I don't know how to do this. There's gotta be a better way to be. And that kind of kicked off my journey. Brought me out to Colorado for the first time and got me into like a transformational world. And. And then it all really kind of all the dots started to connect when I got into my first men's groups and my first somatic therapy and my first deep experience was, was with one of my mentors. And I had been seeing a talk therapist for like a year. Cause my company paid for it. But I was, you know, pretty mental. I was pretty sophisticated and good at kind of sharing just enough to feel like we were doing something but not really moving the ball.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah.
Jason Lange: And then I'm in this men's circle with this kind of guy who leads far more deep, somatic stuff. And within 10 minutes I'm on my back, my arms are literally shooting up in the air. And I'm saying, hold me, hold me. And I'm crying like a two year old, just bawling.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah.
Jason Lange: And I got up from that and I was like, what was that? Like I have no idea what that was. And you know, started to put the pieces together. And then where it connects back to this high school story is that was the first time, as far as my memory could go back, I could remember touching my mom or being touched by her. So, you know, I know it happened when I was quite young, but basically kind of toddler years on, there was just no physical touch in my house, let alone emotional touch. And so lo and behold, you know, with the benefit of work, I realized, oh my God, I've been walking around all these years and there's this screaming two year old who's desperately scared and wants to be touched, trying to relate to all these women. And it's not exactly the sexiest energy for a woman to, you know, feel in a man's nervous system. And so that really just kind of kick started my whole journey. And I was all in on body based stuff and going into men's groups in particular and learning just to share, to be seen, to talk, to touch, to be in connection. And that really has never stopped, right. The journey just keeps going. But it was in Colorado in my 20s, I got into my first men's group and that really changed my life. Just kind of more probably than anything else any of the plant medicines or therapies. There was just something about the consistency of showing up in a group with nowhere to hide, right? Because they just knew me, they loved me, knew what I was up to, they knew my games. And it really propelled my life forward. So much so that my first group in Colorado was part of what motivated me to move out to LA and pursue a career in filmmaking and like, just go for it. Because they were like, man, if you want to do it, that's the place to do it. Not here, right? And I got out there and I kind of went for it and I dropped off the face of men's groups and men's works and it didn't go so well. I was out there for like two or three years, like totally overweight from crafty food, not taking care of myself. And I just realized like, this is a structure, I need to thrive. Like I don't do well without it. And so I got inspired, met some guys, started a new group out there and that really propelled me forward in some substantial ways. And then really just the transition to this was I just wouldn't shut up about it. Like I was in authentic relating communities and stuff. It was just my men's group. I was doing this in my men's group. I love my men. So all these guys, you know, started asking me, can I come? Can we come to your group? And it was just eight of us at the time and we Met in one of our members, he was a therapist, so we met in his office and it was, you know, it couldn't fit more than eight guys. So I was like, no, we're a closed group. Like, can't do it. But it just inspired me that I was like, okay, well this has been so meaningful for me. And at the time I'd actually moved more into like tech coding work and it was like self taught and could kind of do it. And it just stressed me out so much. Like sitting at a computer, being in my head, I would get done with that and I would just feel so awful. And then I started to notice I would spend two hours with men in circle and I would get done and I'd be like this energy, right? Like I came in with. I was like, fuck yeah, let's do this. I love life. I got energy. I was like, wouldn't that be an interesting if I could get paid to do the thing that brought me energy rather than extracted it from me. And so I just started leading men's groups off of meetup.com in my living room in LA in 2017. Just like twice a month drop in groups. LA was amazing because such a huge range of men ended up showing up and I got to know men and learn about facilitation and then I was like, I like this. So I went out and got some training and kind of pivoted and it's been a long eight, nine years since then, but it seems to finally be coalescing into, okay, I think I could do this for a living. This is great.
Host (Man For Real): Wow. Okay. Okay, well, there's a lot there. I really appreciate your clarity. Obviously you've had to have a lot of thought to be in the position you are and gone through a lot. I'm curious, like, so there was this moment in that men's group that like awakening of like, whoa, I've got this two year old in there that's needing some love. How is that? Like, so you went through a lot of that, did some somatic work, somatic psychotherapy, were in men's groups. I just kind of wonder about like how that shows up in your life now. You know, now you've sort of figured out how to be with women and some, some degree, you know, like that's worked itself out. It's, I imagine I'm just curious how it's been for you now. Is that sort of, sort of healing some of those family wounds? Yeah, yeah.
Jason Lange: I mean, I have two kids now. So the great, the great joy is Getting to do that pretty differently. And we have lots of touch and lots of cuddling and lots of closeness and huge emotions constantly being expressed in the best ways. So that's been deeply healing for me. And I have a son now who's 16 months old, and so that in particular is really just seeing him and getting to re. Experience life as a young boy again is just magical. And then, yeah, with my wife, you know, it's been a powerful thing to really center touch and closeness since. Since we met. You know, that was something I was much more aware of. And, you know, even maybe a relationship to before her hadn't fully disentangled my just touch needs from sexual needs. They often got smashed together, like I think they do with a lot of men. And by the time I got to her, I was much more clearer that, hey, sometimes can you just lay on top of me? Like, I just. The pressure, just the feeling, it's just so good. Just does something for me, right? And, like, my body can't quite get enough. So I'm much more conscious of it. And I'm conscious of it in the sense that that part of me still lives inside me. Right. Coming from a household of neglect, in a sense, I can get so focused on work or trying to take care of my family that it's easy for me to not be present for my family. And, you know, much less these days. But, you know, a couple years ago, there'd be times I would realize, oh, my God, I'm doing the thing my parents do. I haven't even touched my wife in two days just to, like, walk up to her and, like, say, hi. I would just, like, go into this autopilot, which was kind of a slightly different version of that. But it still lives in me. And I have to be really conscious of how quickly I can go to no touch in a sense, because it's kind of was my baseline for so long, and I can survive there. But I have to, like, really consciously kind of bring myself back. I mean, luckily, with kids now, it's pretty hard to not. They're just all over me all the time. But I do have to put that attention on my intimate relationship of, like, oh, yeah, like, I need this, she needs this. And sometimes I'll just forget if I'm left in my own devices until it, like, builds up, and then I'm like, ooh, we're not in a good plate. Oh, no wonder why I literally haven't approached my wife and gotten close to her in, like, two days.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah, yeah, yeah. I Think the thing that really grabs my attention, there's that autopilot or that sort of zombie mode or just like, I'm just shut down. I'm just kind of in like, some kind of industrious state where I'm just, like, getting shit done. I know that so well in my own life. I think that's where I, you know, in my work with men, it's like they really want to connect and then. But there's also, like, you know, a lot of pressure, a lot of static around, like, their identity as a provider, as a, you know, taking care of their families together, their lives, and they get sort of lost in that energy of just like, work, work, work, work, work, work, do, do, do, do, do, do. So I don't know, it's. It's interesting to me how the struggle I feel, even in my own life, that tension of, like, being present, being engaged, being close, touching, all those affection, all those things. And also this, like, real intense energy that says, you gotta fix the fence. You gotta, you know, mow the lawn. What are you doing? Come on. You know, that's so. It's like. That's very real for me too. And so it's just like. It's. And I think it's like, sometimes I think it's like the tension point is like, either, you know, you're not being a man unless you're, like, doing these provider things or the other side of it, which is like, you're not being a good man if you're not connecting with your family. And I think the thing that I'm finding is that it's always a tension point. It never gets worked out. Exactly.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Yeah, I would totally agree. And I mean, part of where my life's been moving is, you know, a principle, really, of if all my work, if all my hard, industrious work isn't creating more opportunities to spend time with my family. Yeah, I'm not on. I'm not actually on track. Right, right. Because I can feel the part of me that wants to scale. Scale, get bigger, to hire people. And then, you know, luckily, because the work I do, I work with a lot of those guys, and they're like, it's not so glamorous. Right. I am busy all day the time, and I have so much money. It's stressful. What do I do with it, you know, managing it, all that kind of stuff. So I'm kind of settling into this groove, you know, for me, as my. My kids are. Are 6 and about 15 months old of, like, man, I got this short window, right? You, you. I know your kids are a little older. Like every man I know that has older kids, they're like, dude, it goes fast. Like, it goes so fast. And so I, I feel blessed because of having wise men around me. It's like, okay, yeah, these are the days to make the most of. So work as hard as I can and gotta prioritize the time with the kids, right? Because it, you know, you wake up and suddenly they're a different kid. It's like, wow, you're not the little child anymore. But that tension, you know, I think it's really real and it's a big burden. You know, a lot of men carry around the providership. And sometimes I think some of the work I do with men is just the mistake we make of, oh, I'm going to do all of that so I can achieve a certain amount of something so then I can spend time with my family, right?
Host (Man For Real): And you run out of time.
Jason Lange: It almost never comes that way. It's like, you know, it makes me think of the, the whole idea of you got to take the mini retirements. Like, you know, you could save it all up for when you're 80 and can barely move or. Yeah, can you, can you take three, four weeks a year and actually travel and enjoy? And there's a way I'm trying to like make my family life a little bit like that. Instead of waiting for the, the dream on the horizon of, oh, I'll just have all the systems in place and the money will be rolling in. It'll be so easy to spend time with them and it's probably never gonna be that way. So start spending time now.
Host (Man For Real): You gotta do it right now. Yeah, no, I think that's very true. And it's a struggle for me. Cause I, I think I feel like it's like, yeah, just that tension point I guess I'm describing, but it's like, wow, I feel so. There's just a way that my providingness, providing element is so intertwined with my sense of like being a good man. And so like when I'm doing the things that are doing that. And the thing is, it's like, it's always like this question of like, a little bit more. I can make a little bit more. I could make a little bit more. That's like such an illusion. It's like such a, it's just, I think how our systems work, it's like, oh, yeah, but you can have a little bit more, A little bit more. And I think like, that's the thing that allures me into this sense of like. Yeah. That if I just do this and this and this and then I'll have a little bit more. That'll make it better. And it's just not. A little bit more time with my kids is going to be way more satisfying in the long run.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah, No, I think. I totally agree. I think it's getting worse. I think it's really getting worse that the loneliness factor. And men, I see this with men. You know, they have a family or they're married and then that marriage ends. Then they're seeing their kids halftime. And they. They have no. They have nothing else in their life. They have no friends, they have no community, they have colleagues. But it's all within that context of work. And it's not really any. There's no depth to it and they are just like lost. They are lost and terrified. So, yeah, I think it is a really, really deep struggle today. I'm curious to maybe talk so, you know, you're talking about this as we're going, but just like a little bit more about your work in evolutionary men and what that is like for you. Like, what. What are you like trying to do with men? Like, you know, I'm obviously depends on the person, but like, do you have like some general principles, some general ideas of what you bring in your work with men?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I would say my mission statement in my organization, I've kind of summed it into every man should Be in a men's group. So it's about getting men into men's groups. Like, as I look at the whole world and all the different ways to support and serve love and consciousness, I'm like, that's the leverage point. I think I could have the most impact on that. Could really change things fast. Right? What happens when men get together in small groups of 6 to 12 men who care about them and track them? That's it. And I'm a pretty big fan of peer led groups. So I'm more and more getting inspired to teach men how to lead and start their groups and kind of decentralized the model just because that's what I was lucky to kind of find in myself. And there's a certain type of ownership that comes from like, we're not paying anyone for this group. This, this is ours, right? It doesn't need to be here. No one can take it away from us. And you know, some guys aren't actually up for that because it also creates a lot of responsibility for, you know, really participating. But I've been very, very inspired to just launch those types of groups. And really, you know, I do some private coaching. I do it, I enjoy it. But groups are just my favorite place that, that's my favorite place to work with men. I see men, in my opinion, grow faster there. So everything I do now is basically a version of some kind of men's group. It's. It's like men's group for dating and relationship, men's group for deep shadow work. Men's group just to experience a men's group, Men's group to learn how to run men's groups. So that's kind of where I'm just putting all of my weight, in essence in that. That's certainly what changed me. And where I think a lot of men are falling through the cracks. Like you said in that there was this stat you maybe know, that blew me away when I saw it last year and just totally reformatted even my judgments of men. And it was up in Canada, right? And it was like a retrospective on men who committed suicide. And it was something like 80% of the men had actually reached out in the year before for some kind of mental health support. So it wasn't this story of they never reached out or did it. They did. There was just something about what was there that didn't quite move the needle for them. And just my totally, you know, unresearched bias and judgment is community. Like they were missing community and belonging in being part of something. And I see this as guys get brought into groups. Two things I say that most men I know crave and that a group can provide are a sense of purpose and belonging. Purpose, meaning it really matters if I'm there. Right. People notice when I'm not there. My gift, my wisdom, my insight, my experience can be the thing that really changes one of my brother's lives in a moment if I just slow him down or look him in the eye or whatever that might be. And so there's deep purpose, there's. And then there's that sense of belonging. Like I'm part of something, we are something. Right. And I think without that, men get sick mentally, emotionally, physically, and get really, really lost. So, you know, I'm just fired up to get guys into groups in any way possible.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah, I think the thing, and I think you're kind of speaking to this like, I think that belonging thing is really huge. And especially for kids who grew up in families where they didn't feel like they did belong, you know. Yes, I see that a lot. Belonging is kind of one of those things that I feel like is getting more attention today. But I think in my early part of my practice, it was something that just kept coming up and I didn't. It wasn't something I knew about or like studied in my, you know, therapy training or anything like that, but it was like, wow, it's like, what's it like to grow up in a family and feel like an outsider the whole time, you know?
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Man For Real): So that's like this wound, right? And then, and then so you bring that into the world. And you know, as men, we're also trained to some degree around being self reliant and taking care of ourselves. And so those two things kind of hit and you're. It's almost unfamiliar to feel like you belong. It's like, that's not a thing you're looking for because you're just like, that's not normal. And what's normal is I don't belong. So I think like, what you're talking about is really important because I think men, my experience in men's group, and I haven't, I'm running one right now. But what I see is this spark that starts to help these guys, they come in and they're a little bit deer in the headlights of like, okay, here we are, my guy, your guys. What are we doing here? Can we talk about sports? That's easy. And suddenly it goes deep. And then they're like, oh shit, okay, I don't really know how to talk about this. But then over time, there's this settling, and they just, like, they just. I can feel it. They start to feel like they belong in this and they matter. You know, people start calling each other out, you know, in gentle, reasonable ways, but they start calling each other out. And it's like, oh, you're calling me out because I matter to you. And that's like a big shift. And I think even for a lot of men, you know, in a way, I think some. For some of them, they feel like they matter in their, you know, in their primary relationships, maybe with their kids. But it's different when a man. You matter to a man. There's something about it that's very fundamentally different. And I'm just sort of spouting off here, but I just wonder if you could speak to that, like, what's so different about a men's group? Because I know, I know. I know what I think, but I'm really curious because this is your jam, so I'm curious what you think.
Jason Lange: Yeah, it's the, you know, part of it, I think, is just the unique texture of masculine love. And so our culture, we talk a lot about love, kind of more in the feminine, motherly way, but there is a unique nutrient and texture to the masculine version of it, which is, I don't need shit from you. Right? Like, literally, I don't need anything from you, like your kids or your family or. I just care about you. That's often it. It's just like, I don't need anything from you, and I care about you, and it actually hurts to see you suffer. And you've told me what you care about and what you love, and when I see you not living up to that, I want to let you know. And I actually think, you know, there's a deep. I call it the spinach in the teeth. The thing you were saying, there's like a deep craving a lot of men have. They don't realize till they get it. That moment of, you know, Terry Real calls it the carefrontation. Like, I love you so much, I'm going to call you forward around this thing. Yeah, dude, you got spinach in your teeth. You look like an asshole. And you're like, oh, really? But then you're like, oh, my God, I've been walking around like this all day. No one told me but you did. You care about me. I feel loved, actually, that you were willing to give me that challenging feedback and help me stay aligned to who I want to Be. And I think men, just some of them don't even know what they're missing until they experience it. And then it's like, you know, I think like you said, they settle and then it's like a battery gets plugged back in.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah.
Jason Lange: And they're like, wait a second. Yeah, I've been running on fumes for three decades and it turns out there's this like, well of love and support that really the group, deepest groups I lead, that's all it becomes. It's just loving presence. Just, we're here, we love you, we're present with you, what's going on? And it's just like men come back alive with, wow, there's guys here that care about me. They're not really needing anything from me in the same way my co workers do or my kids do or even my beloved wife does. Right. She wants a certain type of me. There guys in group are like, dude, I get it. Right? Yeah, just be depressed today. Like, it's okay. Be, be angry today. Like, I don't mind. Like, we have so, in my experience, we have so much space for each other because we know what it's like to be there.
Host (Man For Real): Right.
Jason Lange: It's just that unique thing. And there's something so relaxing I've seen in guys and freeing about when they really enter into that space. And particularly once they drop below the kind of typical masculine competition man box size. And it's like, oh, shit, like, I can actually be real here and these guys aren't going to attack me. Or the one that really a lot of my guys struggle with is, oh, yeah, I don't want to share my sadness or my fear or my grief or my anger, you know, or my shame. Because I don't want to burden you with that. I don't want to burden you with that. Why would you guys want to. And then when they have the experience, right? This is the thing I tell guys, like, be sitting in circle, some other man will be having just like a deep process, doing some work, just owning his truth, feeling something deeply. And then afterwards they're like, oh my God, thank you so much for being so real and so vulnerable. Like, that was so amazing to witness. And then it's like, well, you realize that's how other people experience you when you're sharing your stuff. And they're like, wait, what? It's like, yeah. No, like when you get real, it's a gift to everyone. And seeing that light bulb go off is just one of my favorite moments in a group where guys Go from that, like, oh, I can't share this. I don't want to burden the guys to, oh my God, this happened to me today. And then other guys are like, this happened to me today. And it actually vitalizes the group. It connects everyone. It makes it, makes it feel alive.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah, no, I love the way you're describing it. I remember in one of my men's groups, I was, I was the so called leader, but I didn't lead from any sort of like, you know, objective therapy person. I was like taking notes. How are you guys doing today? I was just part of the group, right? It was just a group member. So we would check in and I would just start talking. I'd be like, well, you know, this and that. I'm just like, yeah, things going on with my family and this and that. And I'd just be really authentic, just talking about my experience. And I remember one time this guy who was pretty new to the group, he just said, wow, if you can say all that, it just makes me feel like I can say it too. And I was like, yeah, bingo. So it is, it's like, it's almost like permission because I think guys want to do this, but there's like, there's this sort of, I don't know what to call it, like a. Some sort of blocking or, or shield or something that says it's not safe. These guys are going to have a hard time with it. They're going to feel burdened, they're going to shame you, they're going to like make fun of you. And I'm sure a lot of guys have had that experience, but actually, you know, especially now as we're getting older and more mature, I feel like it's not like that. Like guys just want to feel that. They want to feel that. Like, yeah, I really want to hear what you're doing.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think there's such a hunger for men. And then when they. I say this all the time. Once a man gets into an environment where the structure and agreements help him feel safe and he gets that permission. Turns out men have plenty of feelings to share and say, like, once they get into that, it's just a lot of times they don't feel it. And you know, where, where I'll often teach my guys, then that kind of hooks in some of the masculine stuff in a good way. Is that even beyond permission? It's an act of leadership because every time you come forward, just like you were doing at the beginning of those groups, you make it easier for every Other man to. And so you're actually serving your brothers by leading with vulnerability and transparency and realness and rawness. So you might think I'm being so selfish, taking all this time right now, but often I see it all the time in groups. Like, I wasn't going to share this, but then I heard you share and you talked about it, and, yeah, now I feel like I can share it. So, oh, my God. Here's the actual thing happening. And the chain that, you know, starts to happen in a group over time is incredible because it just keeps deepening and deepening and deepening.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah. It's also. I remember in this group, we would often focus kind of on one person a week.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Man For Real): We would kind of go around, everyone share. And then I would just kind of, like, be tuning into everybody, and I'd be like, I'd like to know a little bit about what's going on with you. And it was interesting because there was never a point where the guys were like, well, I didn't get to share today.
Jason Lange: What about me?
Host (Man For Real): It was just like, everyone was like, yeah, what's going on with you, dude? We want to be here for you. And it was just, like, so beautiful. I was like. And it wasn't even, like, a part of the principles or the ideas of the group. It wasn't like, okay, we're going to focus on what. It just naturally kind of happened. But it was also so cool. Everyone was like, yeah, the whole group could kind of feel it. Like, this guy is going through it. He checked in.
Jason Lange: He needs something tonight.
Host (Man For Real): He's kind of maybe a little choked up. He's struggling, and he needs us tonight. And it was like, everyone was like, we're here. We're here. And it was just like the, you know, like, we didn't actually get out of our seats or do anything, but we just, like, the energy would just coalesce around this person and be like, we're here for you, man. We're here for you. It was just incredible.
Jason Lange: I love that, and I see that, too. And sometimes I even have guys tell me, you know, occasionally they are going through stuff. And actually, one of the great gifts of the group is, man, sometimes it's nice for an hour or two to just put my attention on someone else and just not have to think about all my stuff, because it's not going anywhere. It'll be there. And there's this, like, sometimes freedom and liberation from just, yeah, you need it tonight, and I'm here for it. And that in itself can be Energizing for some men instead of just kind of staying in their own muck, you know, like so many of us. I certainly do sometimes just ruminating on my things, then it's like, oh my God, I'm so with this person. And then I come out of it and I'm like, oh, that was blissful actually to just totally be present with my brother who is yeah. Very much in it tonight and needed us.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah. I'm curious like for you and your, in your work, like what happens for men where the group doesn't work? Like they struggle and they have to drop out or they just, they go a couple times, maybe they even go for a while and they're just like, ah, can't do this. I don't know. You know, because often for me they would drop and say I can't. You know, they'd just make some reason like I can't come, not the right time, it's too much money, whatever. And I just wonder if you have a more deeper insight into like what happens for those men when they just are like, I can't do it, can't do it.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Some guys are, you know, honestly just scared away by depth.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah.
Jason Lange: In my experience, like they just, they're like, man, I'm just not ready to go there and do that yet. And there's fear about what would happen if I went there. Right. That happens sometimes. Related to that but a little deeper. Something I've honestly seen, which sounds a little woo woo is sometimes in some of the really deep groups I create in particular, the guys are just not ready to receive that much love. Like this is here, it's freely offered, you don't have to do anything to receive it. Like can be such a short circuit for some guys of like I've never received before in my life and like in an accelerator at the same time I've seen too is when guys really start to let support in their lives change. Yeah, like that, you know, you don't stay in the stuck a relationship or the job you hate or the thing that sometimes, you know, I've been there honestly myself that it's just so I like, you know, I'm kind of, I get to complain about it. I don't like this thing. I don't like this thing. I don't like this thing. In a group over time, you know, that doesn't last as long. When I'm just being flooded with love, all my excuses often go out the door or they're like, what's the worst? That's going to happen? What are you going to fail? And I'm like, yeah, and then I'll live on the street. And they're like, no, you're not going to live on the street. You're gonna live with one of us. And I'm like, crap. I have no more excuses, right? Like, that's confronting, you know, in that same kind of care way. So sometimes I just see guys who. They just haven't quite maybe scaffolded enough to learn how to receive support and love without any strings attached.
Host (Man For Real): What do you mean when you say scaffold? That's kind of. I like that word. But I'm curious. I don't know if a lot of know what that means.
Jason Lange: Just that, you know, like, someone like me, I wasn't particularly wired for reception of touch, of goodwill, of emotions, of presence. And so other people I know just like, yeah, bring it. And I had to, like. Like, I was going to the gym, like, okay, you're gonna. You know, I used to get this all the time. Someone would compliment me and I would just like, you know, like so many men just batted away. Oh, no, like, you don't. You don't understand. I didn't really do great. And I had to actually build my capacity, you know, to. To stand, take a deep breath and say, yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. I received that. I've worked really hard, and it's like, now I can take that in and actually let it in my body. But it took. Took a certain amount of reps, right. And for some guys, you know, they just need some time. Sometimes if a group goes a little deeper than their natural rate, it can just be a little too much for the system. Sometimes is in my experience. And I try to let those guys know, you know, it's totally okay. And you might find another container or another group that just aligns better with you. So don't give up on the whole thing. Just, you know, find a good fit.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah, I can so relate to that receptivity or that opening up to, like, I. It took me so long. I think this you're describing of, like, when someone would compliment me, I was so. It made me so uncomfortable. So uncomfortable. I would jump all around trying to deflect. And now, you know, and I worked on it for probably my 30s, and now it's like, I just like, fully receive it. Oh, my God, thank you. That feels so good to hear that. Appreciate it. And then there's this another level that I'm finding in my relationship with my wife, where it's like she loves me so much that sometimes I'm just like, ah. Like, there's like, another level of, like, ugh. It's poking at some stuff, and it's really soft, like, really raw. And I'm like, oh, thanks, baby. My God, that's really intense. And so I think what ends up happening is there's some part of me that, like, almost, like, narrates this story of, like, she doesn't really care about me. She's just. She cares about our kids and our dog, but not really me, you know, so I'm not that important. There's this thing that goes on to protect me from the intensity of her love. And that's just like. Some ways it seems so ridiculous, but I think it's real. I think I really feel that it's just, like, so intense.
Jason Lange: I think it's very real, particularly for men, you know, and it's that. It's that real capacity of, wow, if I really let that in. You know, I see this in a lot of guys I work with, particularly who kind of stay with it for a while. And at first they come in and it's all the challenges of life. And this is hard. And this is hard. And then there's often a threshold moment where the biggest challenge in life becomes, how good can I let it get?
Host (Man For Real): Yeah.
Jason Lange: Like, how can I. Can I really let the love in from my spouse or my kids or my pride about what I'm creating in the world? I think some of that's just tied to. Because, man, if I ever let that in and it goes away, though. Oh, right. I could. I could. I live. And, you know, that's kind of the. The vulnerability of it, of to fully let it in and to know it could go at any moment.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah.
Jason Lange: For all kinds of reasons.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah. As you're describing, I can almost feel the vulnerability of. Yeah. It's interesting because it's like, you know, I think about this with my wife. Like, we've. You know, we've been together for 12 years, way past any relationship I've ever had. And, like, we were watching this movie a couple weeks ago, and in the movie, the movie was kind of this strange, almost kid horror movie which ended up not being so appropriate for my kids. But what was interesting about it was it was about this family and their mom and died. The mom had died. And they don't get into the details of what happened. It's just that she had passed and you knew that. And the way that the daughter was dealing with it and the way the son was dealing with, the way the dad was dealing with it. And it ended up becoming really a movie about grief. But I remember just like sitting there and I just started crying a little bit because I was like. The thought of losing this person feels so scary. And I imagine on some level, like, as you're describing it, that there's some way in which I try to protect that by almost like keeping her a little bit away so I don't have to fully feel how much I really deeply am connected and cared for this person. Because then I don't have to feel the grief, which is all bullshit, because even no matter what, I'm going to feel it all anyway. So it's like. It's like stupid. It doesn't. Doesn't really help you.
Jason Lange: That's right. That's the kind of I just fallacy, in a sense, we fall for in that, you know, the beauty of it. And I'm by no means a master of. You know, I have my moments and I'm practicing those moments, you know, whether it's a minute or two to just be like, oh, God, this. You know, my kids are like chasing each other, my wife's over here, the dog's barking, and I'm like, this is as good as it gets. Like, I mean, like, if I really feel into this moment, this is an amazing moment and let it in. And I think it's, you know, a great practice for men. You know, a lot of men's work through the ages has been deeply tied to practices around death and being connected to dying. Because I think. Right. There's a direct correlation to the more ephemeral we allow ourselves to realize it all is. It's just gonna go right through your hands. You can't hold on to any of it.
Host (Man For Real): Yep. Yeah.
Jason Lange: The more that kind of demands a certain presence.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah, right.
Jason Lange: Because it's like, oh my God. Yeah. Like this is it. I'm assuming. I have all kinds of assumptions that they'll always be another. Right. And I'm. I'm not quite there yet, but I'm getting close. Where, you know, I've very tall daughter and she's only 6, but I'm like, wow, it's getting hard for me to hold you. Like to hold you. And I know that day. Right. Is going to come where it's like the last time I just kind of picked up my little girl. When that day is, I don't know. But like, when I'm holding her now, I'm like, oh, my God, this is Going to be gone soon. Like, when I allow myself to feel that grief of it's not going to be here forever. And it takes a certain capacity, you know, to go there that some days I'm not up for, other days I am. But as a practice to move towards that, I think you're right. And sometimes it's just too much, and we have to kind of titrate and close down a little bit and just. Yeah, that's going to be. That's going to be a lot when that does happen, which it will for all of us, you know, people we care about the most.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah, yeah. No, I totally agree. I think that's it. That's like. I think for some of the men I work with, that capacity to face these things is so hard on so many levels. They're just. You know, I don't want to blame our culture, but there's a way in which it seems like, so unfair for men to be forced into these situations when they've been trained to be out of them in so many ways.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Man For Real): You know, which we all know about. But I think. I think the thing that is really inspiring as I'm talking to you is this sense of, like, I don't know, like you. I think the thing that really caught me was that sense of, how good can it get? How good can it get? I think that's really a beautiful idea that I'm still sort of digesting right now. Like. Yeah, like, just the love, the. The masculine love, and being able to really receive that from other men. I'm curious. One of the things that comes up for me a lot, and this is quite true in my own life, is like, this struggle for men, not. Not just in men's groups, but just in life, to formulate friendships, male friendships. And I wonder, even in. In their groups if that. One of the things that comes up with some of my clients, I'm trying to, like, encourage and help them get out and meet other people, meet other men, because they're showing up, they're very lonely and very alone. But I wonder about that sort of. You talked about this earlier about that. That sort of way in which men have a struggle to distinguish between love and physical or love and sex. Like, it's almost like they don't. They don't have. They're not two separate things. And so when men get close, there's a way that. That can feel a little unnerving and almost. They don't know how to not sexualize it because their only way of feeling loved is in a sexual context. And so I wonder if that comes up in your group sometimes, because it has come up with some of my clients where I'm, like, trying to get them to meet guys, and then they're like, yeah, I asked him, but then I was, like, so awkward because I was like, I want him to think I was, like, hitting on him or something. I'm like, yeah, why wouldn't you think that? But it's very real. It's very real in our culture.
Jason Lange: It's so real. Yeah. I mean, our culture. Our culture has changed a lot, and there's still strong homophobia in it. Right. That gets layered in and then smashed together with, you know, all the features of the man box that do kind of through culture, push into men. Like, do it alone, be tough, don't be vulnerable, don't share. Men are competition. And, you know, some of it's very real. Sometimes. Yes. Men are threats.
Host (Man For Real): Right.
Jason Lange: There are a lot of guys I work with in groups who men were the source of their deepest wounding, Bullying fathers, whatever that might be. So just coming into a room with nine other male bodies already has them high on alert.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah.
Jason Lange: These are real wounds that some men carry. But then we also smash that into. Yeah. Our culture doesn't teach men how to connect. Right. For most guys, and, you know, there's a way we kind of make fun of it sometimes in media of, like, you know, the guy who high school was as good as it got from, and he never stops talking about those stories, and those are his best friends forever or college. And I think part of what that ties into is that's for a lot of men, where their deepest relationships are formed, and they never have an opportunity to do that again. And often what creates that is it's a time where you have. How did I used to say this? It's like you get to hang out and do nothing with each other.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah.
Jason Lange: Right. You just have time to muck around, to mess up and explore and just waste time with each other. It's a time often of a lot of mistakes being made. You're learning new stuff. You're dating, or there's this, or you get fired from a job, and there's a lot of bonding that happens in that. And then men get launched out of school, and, you know, they get on the escalator, oh, my God, I got to get the job now. To get the house, to get the wife, to get the kids and do the thing. And the first thing that drops is that space to kind of explore and invest in those relationships. And then on top of that, most men just don't have the tools or training to share their inner world. Right. To go under the surface and actually talk about things. So, you know, I work with a lot of guys who they actually do have male friends. Like, we went out to the bars, or we did our weekend, but then they come home and they still feel lonely. I had a guy who just did a ski trip, like his closest friends from growing up, but they just don't talk about things. Right? There's maybe, oh, you're having a hard time right now, huh? And then it's just, boom. It's just offlined. And that's, I think, the default culture for a lot of men. And so I think what's great about a men's group is it allows us to. To pierce under that. And so. Right. I got two kids. I'm entrepreneur. My wife's an entrepreneur, Very busy. I have eight other guys here in my group in Colorado right now that I meet with. I could not see them all one on one as frequently as I do. Like, it's just not part of my life schedule right now. But twice a month, I get to spend four very efficient hours catching up with these men and, like, building that rapport. And even those little moments, then, you know, we do the one on ones when we can, but it becomes a very valuable way to keep growing those. And then, you know, we'll go off for a weekend once or twice a year, and it really deepens. So that, yeah, it's a big challenge for guys. And a lot of the structures we used to meet other men in are just evaporating, right? They're just going away. And so I think groups are, you know, fill this potentially huge hole for where do I go? And, you know, one of the reasons I moved back to Colorado was because my group was like, dude, you got a spot here if you want to come back. And, you know, I'm 45, I got two kids. The idea of moving somewhere where we had to start completely over with community, I was like, I just. I don't have it in me. I barely have time to leave the house as is. And so getting to be in a circle like this, our community is my group's community. Their spouses, their kids. It becomes, in a way, our extended family. Right? We do the birthday parties.
Host (Man For Real): We do the thing.
Jason Lange: We do the Christmas party. We're singing carols. Like, it's. It's a beautiful. Like, one of the highlights for me is having that layer that's kind of powered by those deep connections we make and learning to kind of go under the surface. You know, that's last thing I'll say around this, right. Is I think a lot of men, historically and again, you know, I'm talking kind of population level here, but men would bond, going off and doing hard shit, war, building something, you name it, Exploring, going to get some hunting. Like these were the things we would do. We'd go away, do something hard and then we'd bond. And you know, there's some research around vasopressin and male receptors and like we're kind of wired for it in some sense. And as the outer world, for at least those of us, you know, in places like this in the States, you know, first world, as the outer world becomes less dangerous, there's less opportunities to do that.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah.
Jason Lange: What's great about a men's group is it's the same energy. It's just the unknown, challenging territory is the inner life.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah, right.
Jason Lange: It's when we turn that inside of oh my God. This thing I inherited from my dad, I realize he got from his dad and it's a chain in my body or this two year old or this thing I keep doing with my kid and their thing. And those challenges become deeply meaningful to move through in community. And it bonds us. Right. It was certainly. I could speak for myself. It bonds me to my other men, that they have witnessed me through some of the hardest moments of my life and I through them, it's a different kind of relationship because they see under the hood. Right. They don't see the social media, they see the oh my God, snot was coming out of my face and I was a puddle of just collapse because I didn't know what to do in my life.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah.
Jason Lange: But then I moved through it with their help. And that's an incredible thing to get to experience, I think, with other guys. And that, that sense of facing the challenge and facing the unknown, it just, it becomes in the interpersonal world in so many ways. And a group can really bond over that.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah. I love all that. I love all that. As I'm sitting here, Jason, listening to you, I just wanted to reflect back, like as I came into this, I was a little tired. I long day at work and it's just, it's interesting just even here we're, you know, we're in two different places, we're doing this online. But just to be here with you is, is just I feel this vitalization of my body of like, wow, it feels so Good. It's almost like what you're saying. I am actually experiencing some of it in my, in my life right now, in this or in this moment right now. And so I just, I, you know, it's like I'm kind of like double clicking on this. So, like, the shit works, guys. Who's ever, whoever's out there listening right now, this shit works. Find a men's group, get in and
Jason Lange: do really does real thing. And you know, guys, and there's a stereotype or are we going to be drumming and crying and. Sometimes, yeah, but not all the time. And what I tell guys is, honest to God, if no other reason, even if you're just coming from that simple masculine place, you're going to become more effective in life when you have a good group because you'll have a place to metabolize your pain, be held, be supported, slowed down people to help you get clear around what's really important for you. And it's meaningful in that sense. It's not just like a, oh, it's like a support group kind of thing. It can change your life and the very real behaviors you make, you know, in that, you know, I'll tell a story about one of my guys. I think he'd be fine sharing it. There was a time he was like really struggling with something and he was the more withdrawn kind of kind of guy, right? Always on the. I don't know if I'm gonna stay in the group, but kind of just used to be in my own thing. He wasn't fully in and there was a time in his relationship he was really in a dark place and he was like very lost. And he decided not to come to group. And one of the men noticed and, you know, just kind of messaged his partner and they were like, yeah, you know, he's out there, he's hurting right now, and I don't know what to do. The group fucking got in the van, drove around town, found him, grabbed him, pulled him in, brought him to group, sat him down and he just burst, right? Just burst from the love. And from that moment on, he was in. I mean, he was in like, oh, I'm going to the grave now. Like, I wanted to do my thing and you guys didn't let me. And that. It's like a battery we get to plug into, right? Like I said, that love, that presence, that, dude, you don't have to do it all alone. None of us are perfect. We're all struggling. Instead of pretending and putting on that kind of masculine instagram face. It's like, I'll just go under that. It's hard. I fucked up this week. I want to do this, but I'm not doing it. I set this goal. I failed it. So much energy just getting real, even just gets liberated in that process. So I'm so with you.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah. So I'll put this in the show notes. I'll put your website. Evolutionary Men.
Jason Lange: That's right.
Host (Man For Real): Yep. Okay. Yeah. So groups, there's also some private. If they wanted to see you in private or something, like some private coaching is possible in there as well. Okay.
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Private coaching. I can point you towards men's groups. You don't even have to work with me. Just, you know, I'm pretty plugged in at this point. You and I share some networks, and I'll help you find something near you. It's real and it works.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jason, I think that's a good place to end. I just wanted to thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to see you again. It's been such a long time, and just to listen to you and to hear about your experiences and what you're bringing to the world. And I just want to thank you for everything you're doing out there.
Jason Lange: Thank you so much for having me and the deep service I know you do to so, so many men.
Host (Man For Real): Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for listening today. Please take a moment to like and follow so we can continue to change the world by changing ourselves. Have a wonderful day.
