415: The 5 biggest reasons relationships go sexless … and what to do | Dear Men

Jason Lange: No one talks about the, the threshold moment that all couples go through of at first, you know, sex. It's hormonally driven. It's. There's tons of polarities we'll get into. You really want it. You haven't spent that time around people, and then that dwindles where it, It. It doesn't become a, oh, I want it all the time just because I'm around you often. It's. We have to generate it, right? We have to do some work which we'.

Melanie Curtin: Hi, guys. Welcome back to another Jason episode. Hey, so glad to have you back.

Jason Lange: Glad to be here.

Melanie Curtin: So today we are talking about the five biggest reasons for sexless relationships. And we have put these in a sort of order. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. In an ascending order of sort of what we have seen as the root causes and the popularity of those causes. So we're going to start from the least popular and then work up to the most popular that we have witnessed in our work. And I also want to say that most of the time, at least one of these issues is at play. More of the time, multiple ones of these issues are at play, and every couple is distinct and every couple has their own constellation of things unfolding in their relationship. But these are very common, and often it's several at once. So that's a. That's kind of a. An overarching thing. And then we'll. We'll pepper in some success stories of men that we've seen in particular that have done the work and are now in a different place. So, yeah, let's start with number five. Number five. This is like, actually kind of a depressing list in a way, you know, but it's an important list. It's an important depressing list. So number five is structural issues. Structural issues. So, for example, we have multiple men that we've worked with. And I have women friends of mine who have said this as well, where they say the woman in the relationship essentially can't relax when the kids are in the house, even if the kids are older and even if there's a lock on the door. For some women, it feels inhibiting to have sex when the kids are around. And it definitely can help to have a lock on the door. That has helped some couples, but there. There seems to be some kind of structural issue sometimes around. I don't know if I'd use the word access, but sort of, yeah. Inhibitions. Inhibitions. Often on her side, more of the time on her side. The dynamics we're going to be talking about today they are. We're going to be talking about men and women and for the purpose of this conversation, we're going to assume that in this dynamic the man wishes that the couple was having more sex and the woman maybe isn't in that place. And. But this can show up across the spectrum, right? It can show up in queer relationships, it can show up in non binary relationships. This isn't necessarily about this particular structure, but in the, in the literature, what we say is a high desire partner and a low desire partner. So there's a discrepancy between the desire for something like sex. Sometimes the high desire, low desire can also be about just physical affection. It doesn't always have to be about sex, but that dynamic where one person wants more of something in the relationship and the other one is less interested. So yeah, can you share a little bit about that particular one, what you've heard of sort of the woman just can't relax when the kids are around?

Jason Lange: Yeah, that's definitely a real one. It's a, it's a challenging one because it limits things quite a bit in terms of the experiences you can create. You know why? It could be cultural, could be personal, could be religious, you know, the sex is dirty, sex is bad, who knows knows. But it definitely happens. And then it kind of pushes things into vacations and you know, outings and things like that. This is one I've definitely heard from some guys that I think is both. Sometimes the thing that's actually being named and sometimes this one can be. There's actually a deeper issue, but this kind of is leverage to not admit that or talk about that while the kids are around. Da da da da da. So this one can be both and right. Sometimes you just. A spade's a spade, sometimes it's pointing to something else. But definitely, you know, that, that you know, not being able to fully relax into pleasure, into the experience when you just feel other people around, whether it's your kids or you know, more and more as we work with older couples, you know, if you have a grandparent in the house or someone who's not living with you, you know, this can just change the dynamics of things. So that's a big one that can really show up.

Melanie Curtin: And I, I want to be explicit here that for example about it, one of the inhibitions has been I don't want my kids to hear me. Right. There's something about being heard, being being witnessed, being known as a sexual being. And this is a sensitive topic because there's often work to be done on her side around owning sexuality, being, Being right with her sexuality. Sometimes we talk about that with our clients as well. So processing and I liked what you said about this can often be one where it's the named reason, but there's usually other things at play as well. There are usually other, deeper reasons happening. It's not that it's not valid, but it, there is usually an and when. When this is at play. Another structural issue is exhaustion after kids. Right. A lot of couples report plummeting rates of sex as kids are being born and as they're. Particularly when they're young, but often sexless dynamics. And we've said this on other episodes, but I'll just restate it here. Psychologists define a sexless relationship as one in which the pair has sex 10 times or fewer within a year. So just under once a month is the definition of a sexless relationship. It doesn't mean zero times ever during a year, but it means ten times or fewer. And a lot of the couples with whom we've worked, or, sorry, the men with whom we've worked that are partnered, are reporting once every six months, haven't had sex in the last three years. So of course there are also rates that are less. But if you are in that kind of dynamic where you're having sex less than once a month, you are technically in a sexless relationship. So, yeah, exhaustion after kids, this is a big one. I don't think that we need to dwell on it. Pretty apparent. But maybe you can speak to that a little bit in terms of your own personal experience and the experience of the men with whom we've worked. Because it feels like it does take effort and attention and energy in order to keep sexuality alive during the most stressful period that most couples will go through. When you look at rates of happiness in, in couples, the lowest rates are when children are 0 to 5. That, that's the hardest. Tends to be the hardest period.

Jason Lange: Yeah, this is the, this is a big one. And I, we see it the most. I've, I've worked with men. We've worked with men the most in this kind of newborn phase. But I do want to note sometimes this shows up in other areas too where couples don't even have kids yet. But life is so jam packed with work and activities and socializing. It's very quick for the relationship and then particularly sex to drop to the bottom of that list because, you know, again, one of the main reasons we have jobs is no one talks about the, the threshold moment that all couples Go through of at first, you know, sex. It's hormonally driven. It's. There's tons of polarities we'll get into. You really want it. You haven't spent that time around people. And then that dwindles where it doesn't become a, oh, I want it all the time, just because I'm around you often. It's. We have to generate it, right? We have to do some work, which we'll talk about another huge one here, you know, that I'll name really big for men. Really big. No one told me this. I was in a lot of men's groups and it just never came up after I started talking about it, you know, it was revealed to me and I did some research, but it's what changes in a woman gets a lot of focus in childbearing, but what changes in a man does not. Right. And so the research I found that kind of blew me away is the moment a man becomes a father, once he actually has the kid, his peak testosterone level drops and it will never naturally get there again. And every time you have a kid, another kid, it drops. And they've even done the research that continues into grandparenthood. So even as you're a grandparent, if your children have more children, your testosterone drops. And that's not something I was prepared for. Right. And so this thing happens where suddenly your amount of stress goes way through the roof. You have very little time, you're not getting sleep, there's a kid that needs you, one of you, all the time. And then simultaneously, the hormones driving your sexuality change drastically as a man. And they change for, you know, women too. Some just don't want to be touched much at all during those early years, breastfeeding kids over you all the time. It's like, I don't want more touch here. Very common for women. And I've definitely had to navigate, you know, we've had to navigate this in our relationship. We've been. Violet and I have been pretty good, but we've definitely gone through cycles. And, yeah, there are days where, you know, the other thing I think for a lot of men don't realize is we have a daily kind of hormonal cycle of which testosterone tends to peak early in the day and then it declines throughout the day. And I literally can tell you, I'm 45 now when we're recording this. And I can feel the moment usually around 9 to when it really plummets for me where it's like all day I've been Thinking about sex, been thinking about being erotic, and then just boom, and it's gone. It's like, oh, . Yeah, yeah, it totally drops off. And then here's the challenge. For so many couples, that's often the only window they have is, oh, my God, the kids are finally in bed. We've got this sliver of time, and often my libido has plummeted, so I've had to learn to work with that and, you know, learn to take better care of myself. All these things that we're talking about there, that exhaustion can be a structural thing. Sometimes it's just a life phase. Sometimes it's the couple not prioritizing self care and each other.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And then the last structural one that we had down here was perimenopause and menopause. So, speaking of hormonal changes, I recently had a woman on my podcast who is a physician specializing in hormone treatment for women. And she said that often when she optimizes a woman, now that woman wants more sex than her man. And so then the man comes in to get optimized for partly the reasons you're outlining around his testosterone levels. And. But she said, that's very. That's a very common pattern. So I do think that often this is at play. It is sometimes not the main driving reason for how the couple has gotten to where they've gotten to, but it is a factor. It is part of the equation, and I would classify that as structural. So that was number five. Number four reasons for sexless relationships has to do with unresolved sexual trauma. This can be on his side or her side. It can sometimes be both. The rates of sexual abuse are 1 in 6 boys and 1 in 3 girls will be molested under the age of 18. That is millions and millions and millions and millions and millions of people. It is billions globally, just to put that into perspective. And much of it goes unaddressed and untreated. And part of where it shows up is in sex with one's partner, in a committed relationship. And part of what's confusing about this is that sometimes it shows up later on. So I know multiple women who've said things like, yeah, at the beginning of the relationship, I had lots of sex with my partner, and I enjoyed that he enjoyed it. I enjoyed that he enjoyed it. That's not the same thing as I enjoyed it. So I believe that there are a number of relationships where it's not a bait and switch, it's not intentional or conscious on a woman's part, but There are relationships where she gets into it and she's having sex with her partner, and she likes that, he likes it. But she isn't inherently experiencing pleasure in her body. She hasn't recovered from trauma that has existed. And when I say sexual trauma, I don't just mean something like child sexual abuse. It can also be religious trauma. It can be programming about one's body, about one's sexuality that is very inhibiting, that feels like it's dirty or it's bad or it's wrong, or. I was taught that this was this gross part of myself and how could I ever take pleasure in it, that there's something wrong with me if I do, or I'm a wanton woman, I'm lascivious, I'm a slut if I enjoy sex. Often these are not conscious beliefs, but they've been installed from a young age, and that is sexual trauma. It's not the same as child sexual abuse. Right? And. But all of these factors are common and at play. And what I have seen repeatedly is that there needs to be a certain amount of responsibility taken by the people in a relationship, woman or man, whoever they are, for their own sexual healing. And most of the men that we've worked with have needed to go through their own process of sexual healing, meaning most of the men that we work with have some degree of sexual shame. Right? I'm too much. I'm disgusting for wanting sex. I'm a pig. They've internalized these messages. They feel. They feel terrible for even wanting sex from a partner that doesn't want it all the time. It's, you know, there's a lot of complexity. But I wanted to highlight this because one of the things that I've seen is that, you know, there are relationships, and I will. I will drop in the show notes an episode that we did with my friend Z, who was. Who was in this kind of marriage. And what she ended up doing was she took a tantra course. She took responsibility for going on her own journey of sexual healing that was separate from her, her partner. It was hers. It was her body. It was her experience. It was her responsibility. It was her choice to do that. And this is an important. This is an important thing to talk about, and it's a sensitive thing to talk about. It's delicate because I don't want to say this isn't victim blaming, isn't saying someone's at fault because of this, but there is something out. It's. It's sort of similar to relational trauma as well. It's like you gotta deal with your attachment stuff in order to be in a healthy relationship. And some of that healing happens with your partner and some of that healing happens outside of your partner and your relationship. Some of it happens with other healthy community members, somatic therapists, workshops, programs like yours and mine. Places where you're in community with others and you're really learning about yourself separate from your partner. So can you share a little bit about this one of the sort of unresolved sexual trauma, sexual trauma in particular around this topic?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean it's a challenging one because sometimes too what you're talking about is either her or him. Don't even. The challenging thing about sexual trauma is we're not even always conscious of it until later we get into a safe relationship or something and then suddenly things start surfacing or moments get triggered or things like that can happen. So it can be a really challenging one. But yeah, this is the thing that is really difficult because you. I can't heal someone else's sexual trauma. Right. I can't heal my partner's sexual trauma. She, you know, in this case I'm talking about a hetero relationship has to take ownership and be willing to do the work to take care of her nervous system and start to re signal safety and do all the hard things that it takes. It's not easy. And some of the things that, you know, partners have experienced are pretty terrible, pretty rough. But that, you know, this is the challenge for a lot of men is it has to be both. Partners have to be willing to do some work here. And particularly for men if they're not prepared or don't know. Some of those stats you've said. I think men can like sometimes make it worse because then they get hurt if she doesn't want it. Like, you know, there's that feeling of like I feel hurt that you don't want sex. And the, the, the big T trauma we're talking about, it's not a choice how her body's reacting. It's not because she doesn't love you or care. It's an actual threatened state the body is still in that has to be unwound and healed. And that's something so important I men to know, you know about these things and that this can really show up. You know, I would actually consider this one. There's a little overlap with our last one here. A scale too, because sometimes it's smaller stuff too. Right. Like you said, I mean, not smaller, but maybe more subtle than we might think. It's cultural teachings, religious teachings, stuff from our family, certain values, right? This is a really painful one. We've worked with a lot of men around who later in life discover their partner actually does not value sex. Right. As a connecting tool in the coupledom it was, it's not something they're interested in growing or deepening or pursuing on their own or together. And that becomes really challenging, I would say, for, for, for relationships in that not all partners are going to be willing to look at this. That's the other really hard thing that we have to admit. And we can't force a partner to, right? We can't force a partner to. But there has to be that willingness to, hey, what do I need here? And you know, sometimes it can be his sexual trauma too. Like, like we're saying, and it's not exactly trauma, but for a lot of men, you know, premature ejaculation, erectile dysfunction, these kinds of things become their kind of shame end of it. That can get in the way of the connection. And you know, where this again, kind of ties into number five, you know, I, I, I'm blessed to a partner who really did a tremendous amount of work on her trauma and her body and even still understands this is such like, subtle territory here. I want to be careful with where it's not about overriding oneself to get in, you know, have sex at a time where it doesn't feel right. But I think for both partners, men and women, part of what we see really work long term here is when partners can start to understand, okay, I may not be in a mood right now, but I've done enough work that I know when, when I am in the mood and we connect, I enjoy it. So there's a gap right now, right? There's a gap between I, I know I like the sex when we have it and my body doesn't feel ready right now. Now there's tons of stuff we can do as the, the, the man in the relationship leading from our side. And here's the thing that is a little challenging sometimes to feminine partners. There's things they can do too, right? So Violet's in particular. I don't know if she's talked about this, but she's talked about it with me for sure. You know, when it's building and she can tell I'm interested in being intimate, she has a thing she can do now to help prepare her body to get her into that space where she is excited, right? So instead of 0 to 60, she has ways to get into her body to relax, to reconnect to her sensuality that prepares her for us being intimate. And that wouldn't be possible had she not done her work previously, right. To resolve a lot of this tension. So this is a big one. It's a really big one. And it's not a quick fix. Right. A lot of the time is the other thing. It can take a lot of healing and a lot of time to move some of these bigger wounds. It is very much possible, but it's something to be aware of.

Melanie Curtin: Well, it's interesting you say that it's not a quick fix, because one thing that I find encouraging and something that I want to kind of make sure we say aloud is that it also doesn't have to take forever. Like, I remember Violet talking about a woman she started to work with, and within three or four months, that woman was having sex with her partner again, after not having sex for, I think. I think it was three years, it was something like a long time. And so one of the major factors here is willingness. Right? That woman had. Had gotten to a place where she was willing, and she wanted to work on it for herself and for her partnership. And so within a few months of doing the somatic exercises with Violet, having a guide, you know, doing the work, she was. She wanted to connect with her husband in that way. It wasn't that she was forcing herself. It was like, oh, this feels good again. This feels playful. This feels exciting. And I feel like I have much more of a voice in what happens. I feel like I have more of a choice. I have more sense of my autonomy. I have more sense of my body. I've reclaimed my essence. There's a lot of. A lot of trauma, particularly physical trauma, puts the body into a freeze state. And then there's a sense of things are just happening to me, and they feel bad. It feels bad. And so there's a lot of coming back to the body, coming back to the essence, being able to speak up for oneself. That. That. That's work. That, you know, it lasts. It's. You know, it's not a. It's not a. It's not a pill. It's a lasting difference. You know, for example, I would love for you to touch me lighter. This is going to bring us right into number three, which is. Which I guess we'll just go into, which is the number three reason for a sexless relationship is that it's not the kind of sex that she is turned on by, so she doesn't want to have more of it. And this is. Can be a really awkward thing because in a lot of cases, in a lot of cases, women are having sex that isn't actually satisfying to them and they are not telling their partner about it. And I know this because it shows up in my sex research. I will also drop into the show notes an entire episode that I did about my sex research. But one of the major findings was it's really hard for a woman to say, ow, that hurts. What you're doing is painful. And I'm not just talking about intercourse. I'm talking about, you know, fingers and other things. And so they don't say that. They just tolerate the pain. I have done this in relationships. I have done this in hookups. Just. It feels really scary. It feels really hard to say, ow. I feel very concerned that he will lash out and attack me and say, oh, you don't like how I do it? Fuck you. Then I don't have to do it at all. So it's scary for me to speak up. So then I don't speak up. So then he doesn't know. So then he keeps doing it the way that he's done it. Or this comes up in the research a lot. She does say something like, I would love for you to touch me. Lighter. Like much, much lighter. He adjusts for about two minutes. And then he goes back to the way he's been doing it. Or he adjusts for that one session. Then he goes back to the way he's been doing it. And she feels like a nag. It feels like if I tell him again, then I'm nagging. And so what can feel easier for a lot of women is there are women who say things like, I cover up my body in the summertime so that my husband isn't turned on. Because I don't. I don't want to. To have sex. I don't want the sex that we have. It doesn't feel good to my body. It doesn't feel nourishing to me. I think that this is very related to the previous one. There's a lot of overlap here. If a woman doesn't know her body and doesn't know what feels good to her, then she's not gonna be able to talk about it. But there is a version where she does know what feels good to her. She also doesn't wanna talk about it. Cause it's fucking scary. So part of the. I have a streaming chorus called Please Her In Bed. And a lot of that chorus is about how a man can lead the way for sexual communication. And he can say things like, I really want this to feel good for you. I'm committed to it, feeling good for you. And I always want to know if something hurts or doesn't feel good. So he's putting it out there. Which is very different, by the way, than saying, what do you like? What do you want? It's a different. It's a different way of setting it up. It's a different way of setting it up. And again, we don't have time to delve into all of that this episode, but this is a big. This is a big theme, is that the kind of sex that the couple is having is not the kind of sex that actually works for her. And she doesn't necessarily know how to talk about that and she's scared to or she doesn't really want to engage because she feels hopeless. You know, Z's talked about that a lot. She just felt like it was a conversation I never wanted to have with my husband because it always felt like it ended in tears and pain and fights. So I just got this sense that I just wanted to give up. I just didn't want to engage about it anymore. It never felt like we made any progress, us. Okay, so that was number three. I will drop those episodes in the show notes for anyone interested in delving a little bit more into that one. The number two reason for sexist relationships that we have seen is. Drumroll, please. Unresolved tensions between the couple. So especially resentment and especially trust. Breaches of trust on one or both sides. But in this one, I'm just going to focus on breaches of trust where she had. She has lost trust in him. This happens both sides, but we're just going to focus on that. That's a theme. We've seen a lot in our work. And there's something I want to say here, which is that we are all comprised of different parts. We have adult parts and kid parts and teenage parts. We all. We all have different parts of ourselves. What often happens is what's kind of like a parts conflict. So, for example, let's say that there's a couple and they make the decision together that he is going to take a new job and it's going to mean he's on business trips and he's away a lot of the time and they have two kids and this is going to put a lot more pressure on her. Staying home with the kids more of the time. They decide this as a pair. You know, they're both in their adult parts. They're like, this makes sense for us financially, et cetera, et cetera. It starts to actually happen. He's away a lot and she is building up resentment. And there is a part of her that feels neglected. And there's a part of her that feels angry and there's a part of her that feels betrayed. Now she doesn't feel like she has the right to any of those feelings because they made the decision as a couple. This is what was supposed to happen. Nobody has cheated. Nobody has done anything wrong. But the feelings in her body are. Where are you? Where did you go? All alone here? I don't know what to do about this. I'm overwhelmed. I need help. I miss you. I miss attention from you. I miss our sex. I miss feeling you with me. I miss your presence. I miss you. And she starts to lose trust over time. And he has no idea this is even happening. And she doesn't necessarily speak up about it because of the parts conflict. She feels like she shouldn't feel this way that she feels. Can you share a little bit about this kind of phenomenon? And especially with respect to trust breaches that aren't necessarily a partner, quote, did something right. They didn't, quote, betray someone in an explicit fashion, but the other partner felt perhaps abandoned or neglected, et cetera.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, resentment's really the word here. In often a lack of clearing that. That's kind of what we're talking about. Different things, literally, these are. These are often things that build up that get in the way of connection between the two of us that we've either never spoken about or never spoken about in a way where each partner felt heard and understood and directly addressed the thing. This is often the result of things that get swept under the rug, so to speak. Changes. Resentments, power imbalances can often show up here of, you know, around finances or taking care of the kids or there's lots of different things here. But it's when instead of being on the same team, suddenly it's like we're against each other. Is often at the root of some of these in a pretty big way. And it can be the big stuff, like you're talking about infidelity, emotional affairs. And this can go both ways, right? Someone had an emotional affair. I've never quite trusted her since I had an affair or, you know, who knows? Or that, you know, something happened and one of us got ill or something and one other partner had to step in for a while. But there's just never a debrief of really talking about what happened where we can kind of get back aligned and each partner can. Can feel heard, you know, this one, too, I'll say can again, kind of. There's a lot of overlap on these. Sometimes can be structural issues, too, in that this is where conversations around labor around the house, emotional labor, things that often aren't spoken about, can really poison the well, so to speak. Right. So this was, you know, Violet had to come to me a number of years ago. It was dishes, right? Like, just didn't feel like I was doing enough dishes. And so the downstream consequence of that was walking into a room, feeling the energy of. There's something to be dealt with in the kitchen. Body does not relax. There's something I have to deal with. Right? That's the kind of, you know, or sometimes it was just mess around the house. My partner's very sensitive to clutter. And, you know, she explained it to me once, is. It's like sandpaper on her skin when she walks into the room. Things that are not connected to eroticism really a lot. Right. And this is just the stuff that. That I think, because so many people, men we work with, just did not come from families of origin where stuff was actually talked about and modeled. How do we handle conflict? How do we handle disconnection? How do we speak the unspoken and clear things with each other and those unresolved tensions, Right. In one way, maybe. Another way you can think about this is if there's unresolved tensions between the two of you, there's no room for erotic tension. Right? It's one space. And so that's the wrong kind of tension that often tends to build up between partners over time. And so the more, the better we get at directly addressing that, which, you know, we can't take all the blame for as men, but we can take a lot of responsibility. And one of the major things guys learn to do working with us is to lead in communication, to create the space to have these challenging conversations or to talk about things or just check in. Like, hey, is there any tension? I'm not even noticing between us, like, anything we need to kind of clear. And then the hard work, often, of rebuilding trust over time, you know, when there were breaches of trust, which, again, doesn't even have to mean infidelity. It just means, you know, many men. My father was this way. I've certainly had some of this. There's the thing I need to handle that I said I would handle, and it's not been handled. You know, could be a simple repair around the House could be something around the car. When that's not handled, even though I committed to handling it, that's a breach of trust. Right. The partners feel that and that bleeds in to eroticism and sexuality. In terms of, okay, I don't feel like I can trust you because we talked about doing this thing and you didn't do the thing. So do I have to do the thing now? And that's not a pretty sexy energy to be in. So trust, you know, in that sense sometimes is. It's trust about presence. It's trust about follow through. It's trust about saying what you'll do and doing what you'll say. You know, the, the, the, the platitude we always talk about. And it's one that for couples that have been together a long time, the well can be deep. Right. You know, if you've been together 10, 15, 20, 30, 40 years and this stuff doesn't go away, right? These little grudges, these little tensions, they can go back a long time until we clear them and which, you know, involves some work we can do, lead our partners in sometimes couples therapy, there's lots of different things. It's just going to keep hanging in the air and it's going to kill Erratus.

Melanie Curtin: I really appreciate you bringing up the, the trust piece and the doing what you'll say that you do. And one thing I want to mention about that is much of the time for me as a woman, I want to know that my man has consciousness around something. It doesn't necessarily have to happen. So for example, if he comes to me and he says, I know that I told you that I was going to get the car into the shop by Friday, it's Thursday, and I know it's not going to happen. And I want you to know that I'm tracking that. Yeah, I'm going to get it into the shop by Wednesday. But I want you to know that I know that that is very different than Friday rolls around and I'm like, what's the deal with the shop? What's going on? I have to drive that part of the conversation, it feels really bad. So even if he's not, not meeting his agreements, if he's aware and conscious and talking about it and being active with me, to me that's polarizing. To me that's, oh, you have your awareness on that and you know, to your point around, you didn't use these words. But mental labor, mental labor in a relationship is vitally important. And when you look at a lot of relationships. Often women are doing a lot of the mental labor. That's not true in every relationship. There are plenty of men that we work with where the man is doing more of the mental labor than the woman. But if you look in aggregate, that kind of thing of who's tracking what is, often she is doing a lot of mental labor, particularly around the kids and scheduling and things like that. And so being recognized for that, being appreciated for that. And then if you imagine being someone who is putting in all that mental labor and that person asks their spouse to take care of one thing, they feel like they've taken care of 11 things and then he doesn't do that one thing. Often she will be mad and her body will be closed and she isn't gonna wanna fuck that guy cause she's mad at him. A part of her is resentful and angry and, and the, and the underlying message under that is, where are you? Right? I need help. Where are you? I'm, I, I want support, you know, where are you? And that's not necessarily gonna be sexy for her. She's not necessarily going to want to be sexual with that, that, with that partner. And like I said, a lot of it is about the consciousness, the awareness, the groundedness. It's very different if he says, I'm tracking these things and I'm tracking that. I haven't completed this task that you asked me to do. That doesn't work if it's every time, all the time. But I, I have noticed in our work that there is a difference. You know, some of our men have, have talked about things like this with their spouses and it makes a difference. It makes a difference for them to be the ones, for the men to be the ones driving the conversations, leading. That generates polarity and it does shift the dynamic. The other point that I want to make here is one of the things that I notice with some of my, my male friends or people that I'm close to is that they might have a good intention, right? They want to be there for me. And in my body, I think to myself, sometimes the only way that you're going to be able to be there for me is if you do your work. You can have all the best intentions in the world, but for you to become a more grounded person requires something. You need to go to a worksh, you need to take a course, you need to do a coaching program, you need to get into therapy, you need to do mindfulness practices, you need to do embodiment work. Whatever it is you need to do that because if you don't, you will just keep doing this pattern, which is what I have seen. So it's like no matter how much you want to be there for her, no matter how much you want to be that guy, you have to actually skill build, you have to actually metabolize your trauma. You have to actually make changes and get the right support in in order to show up that way. So it's not enough to just want to be supportive. Often have to actually make changes in order to be the person that can do that. It's, you know, it's not unlike sometimes they're, let's say an alcoholic who means well, but it's like you have to deal with that. That's the first step before anything else. You can't just keep going the way you've been going and make different choices. There's this big structural thing in the way of that. You have to deal with that in order to get to where you want to go. And the last thing I wanted to say also was I think this has been really helpful for me personally in relationships and I think could be useful for any of you out there listening of, you know, I talked about the different parts and I think that parts using parts language can be really helpful, especially around self awareness, emotional maturity, emotional intimacy, emotional dialogue to just name say, you know, we had this agreement that you were going to do a bunch of business trips. And a part of me is really proud of you for maintaining that. And a part of me feels abandoned. And I've noticed that the part of me that feels abandoned doesn't want to be sexual because I feel almost taken advantage of. Which I know sounds illogical and weird and that kind of language when you take responsibility for both sides, right. A part of me feels this way and a part of me feels this way. And you know, it doesn't make sense that I should feel this way, but it's true there. It's, it's like, it's, it's. When you name truth, it's part of what tends to relax the system. In any system you're part of, whether it's a couple or a team or a larger dynamic, that's what's actually true. What's actually true is a part of me is proud of you and happy for us as a couple. And a part of me is mad at you and feels abandoned. And I know that's not logical, but that's what's actually happening. And that part is trying to push you away. And I want to talk about it. You know, I don't. I don't know what to do about this, but I'm bringing it to you because that's my truth. And then, you know, he can share his side. And this can be helped in couples therapy. But I wanted to name that. That one of the things I often see in the dynamics with the couples with whom I work and the men with whom we work is that there are usually a few factors at play. It's usually not, I feel this one way, and everything's totally clear. It's usually multiple feelings at the same time. Do you feel like that's been true for you too?

Jason Lange: Absolutely. Yeah. Especially the longer you've been with someone that just things. There's many layers all the time to this stuff. The good news, I think, which we'll get to, is sometimes the best medicine is a strong sexual connection because it cuts right through all the many layers and reminds you of what it means to be together.

Melanie Curtin: Um, yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, let's talk about that. So the number one reason that we see in our practice for sexless relationships is polarity issues. That there are issues of polarity between the members of the couple. And we have a bunch of episodes on polarity, if you're interested. I. I would particularly recommend the one on reverse polarity if. Especially if you're not having sex. You probably want to listen to that one. I will drop it in the show notes, but, you know, when you. When we talk about polarity, we often use the words alpha and omega, omega, alpha to represent masculine and feminine energy represented by omega. Just because the words masculine and feminine come loaded up with a whole bunch of other bullshit. So you think about just alpha and omega energy. And we talk about what does it actually mean. Right. Alpha is leading and omega is following. And I think about this a lot in terms of partner dance, where I love following and partner dance. I really love it. I love it because I don't have to make decisions, but I'm really present in the moment. So I'm really, really in my body in the moment. I get to make art with my body. Especially. I'm thinking of tango. When I'm with a good lead, I feel relaxed and I get to embellish. That's what they call it in tango, where you do things with your legs. It's really, really, really fun for me. So I enter a flow state where I get to receive guidance, I get to receive input, and I get to play within that. And alpha leading, when you're in Flow in leadership. It can feel very much, you know, similar. Right. It's like, oh, I'm doing what instinctually comes to me in this moment, but I'm taking the role of leading. I'm leading her body, right. I'm moving her body around the dance floor. I'm. You know, leads also have embellishments and things that they do, but it's, it's. It's a different position to take. It's a different role to take. Primarily, when we talk about polarity, we're talking about leading and following. There are other things that go along with that, that. But that's a main driver of polarity. And what we find, I would say, in our work is that a lot of the men that come to us, when they come to us, they haven't been leading in their relationship for a long time and they feel. They feel the pain of that. They feel the pain of their lack of leadership, which they don't necessarily recognize right away, but they recognize the. The downstream effects of it. One of which is she doesn't want to have sex with him anymore because she doesn't feel polarized. And she might feel like, I have to lead everything. Right. I have to lead everything in the household and, and all the rest of it. And so there's can be a feeling of exhaustion, resentment, and. Yeah. Can you speak a little bit to that? Because I feel like there, there are a lot of dynamics at play. But what do you kind of see often in the men that, that. That come to us when they start?

Jason Lange: Yeah, so I'm going to lead this one. Maybe a little harsh in some sense, but it's like, why would she want to have sex with you? Right. Like, it's a. It's a simple question in a sense, but it's. But it's. Because we're often not taught this. I think a lot of men actually lose sight of that. Well, it's. We're in relationship. This is what we do. And this is a deeper question of, well, what would make your partner want to have sex with you? And that is often the start of the polarity conversation in terms of presence, connection, clearing resentments, set and setting. All of those things that contribute to eroticism flowing in a. In a big sense. And that, you know, we, We've told this story many times. This is the challeng most couples aren't prepared for because you actually. This is like a fire you have to tend the longer you've been together. Right. Literally. What do we say when we first meet somebody There. Oh, this. It was, there were sparks. It was incredible. Right? Sparks. Right. They're there. Those sparks don't last forever. There becomes a flame and you have to tend it. And polarity is the work of tending that, particularly in long term relationship. How do we create this energetic flow in pull towards each other that makes us want to be. Be together. And this can be structural stuff like we talked about that. Okay. Yeah. You know, my wife loves it if I just put on a little music. Huge deal to her. Huge deal. Or it can be educational in terms of really learning about her body and how it works differently than mine. Right. And it can be very personal in terms of. Yeah. How does she like to be touched? These different things. How. What does my partner need to get into the erotic state? Right. This is, this is a conversation we often have with men that it's like foreplay. And I'm working on this just as much as anyone's. Let me be clear about that. Foreplay doesn't actually start just before you want to have sex. Foreplay is like the water you swim in all the time of how are we connecting? Are we being playful with each other? Is physical touch involved? Are words involved? All of that kind of stuff in. The more you kind of tend that fire, the easier it is for eroticism to flow more naturally when you have time with each other. This is the work of polarity. And so many men these days we work with either never were taught how to polarize. Right. Which is totally normal. Or just fall into bad habits. I do that too. Right. And you know, I've heard this from men, I've heard it from women. Sex starts like I put my hand on her butt, right. Like that's often what it breaks down into in long term relationship. And then there's a very specific sequence we go through. And, and that's. That is often not what really turns on the feminine. Just to be clear, right. When it becomes kind of this rote, monotonous, I touch her here. That lets her know, da, da, da. And instead what we're talking about with polarity is so much deeper in a sense of what would get her into her body, into her heart, feeling connected to herself, feeling connected to you. A lot of times polarity flows much more easily once you're connected ahead of time. So. Right. And that connection work is something many of us men just don't want to put in the time on. Right. To kind of create the connection with each other, which then ideally, what eroticism, what sex, what union is, is an expression of the connection. Right. So you have to have some connection in order to want to express it to each other that they often miss. And then there's just the very real tools, you know, and kind of more than the. The nuts and bolts we're talking about around the energy of lead and how us men can really show up and create some directionality to allow her to switch gears, to allow our partners to switch gears and relax into something else.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah. And part of polarity is feeling your cock, feeling your power, feeling your backbone, feeling your spine. And one of the things that we find, that I find frequently in our work is that these men are desperately lonely. Lonely. They are desperately lonely. And when I say lonely, I mean a lot of the guys that show up to our program, maybe you're out there listening, and this is you. They might have acquaintances, they might even have friends from years ago that they don't see anymore, but they don't really have any other trustable men in their lives in a real way that they can drop in with and be real with and be emotionally intimate with and feel vulnerable with and feel seen by and heard by. What happens when a man lacks that is that there's a certain quality of loneliness and sort of drifting and deep isolation. So he might look like he's got connections, he's got colleagues, he's got people that he talks to, but there's a deep sense of loneliness. And that loneliness isn't supposed to be there. Men are supposed to be connected to other men. Men, they are supposed to have a sense of healthy brotherhood. Our culture strips that away from men right around the age of 10. You're no longer allowed to be connected to other boys or you're a pussy. This still happens in 2026. And I hate using that word in that way. That's. I don't actually condone that, but I'm using it mindfully because there's an energy to it. There's a fierce quality around shaming men, boys, young boys and men for being connected to other men. Bullying is a big part of this. There's so much evidence that boys undergo a much different socialization process than girls. Girls are not shamed and emotionally isolated in the same way that boys and men are. They're not. So if you think about a couple, one of them, you know, this is the sort of last major subcategory of polarity is that what often happens in a couple is that he's feeling this depth of loneliness almost all the time. And isolation and sex is one of the Few places where he feels loved and connected. Loved and connected. And so there's a neediness that he brings. He brings a certain quality of neediness to. To his relationship, to his woman around sex. Because it's one of the only places he feels that. That sense of connection. Meanwhile, she often has women friends and other people she's connected to where she's getting emotional intimacy, needs met. She' not in the same place as him. He's. He's lonely. This deep, deep loneliness in this way that she can't even really relate to necessarily. And he's not even aware of it. He doesn't even know that that's what's going on. What he knows is, I really wish that we had more sex. I really feel the need around that. I feel this needy sense. So thinking about one of our men that showed up and. And he was sort of a classic. He was in this classic pattern. And the more he was kind of showing up with this neediness to her, the more repellent it was to her. She didn't want to have sex with him. From that place, he started working with us. He started doing his own work and feeling more connected to other men in a real deep way. And within a few months, the way I describe it is his spine just got straighter. It's just like he kind of like grew into himself in this important, fundamental way. Way that was that in a. In a normal healthy culture, would have been there from teenagehood. He would have been deeply connected to brotherhood from. From young. From youth. But of course, that wasn't true. But now he was connecting to it in adulthood. And then the ways that he was initiating sex with his wife were a lot more playful. He was a lot less attached to whether she said yes or not, because in the past he would just feel so rejected. So they were in this awful dance of. Of him initiating in a way that didn't really feel good to her and her saying no and him feeling rejected. And it was just this downward spiral. And in the doing the work with us, he started to feel more connection in his life, more brotherhood in his life, more emotional intimacy. So he was more filled up. And then he was able to kind of step into his power around sex and sexuality and like, yeah, swat her on the butt in the kitchen or make a playful comment or kind of come towards her in a polarizing way instead of a depolarizing way. Because one of the things I remember a woman saying years ago, she said, my husband pats me on the head when he wants Sex. Like I'm a. Like I'm a dog or something. That's not hot. That's not. You know, when you read chick literature, you read those books. There's a. There's, you know, countless girl talks that we do on this. On this podcast. Talk about. I need a man to come towards me, right? I want to feel him coming towards me. I want to feel his power. I want to feel his power. That is very different than that needy quality of, like, now, is now a good time? Can we do it now, please? Can we do it now, please? There's just an. There's an energy to that. There's a. There's a sense of it's not sexy versus I'm here and I want you, and it's okay if you don't want to tonight, but I want you, right? I'm in my power, right? I'm. I'm in my power. I'm not ashamed of it. I'm not ashamed of wanting it. I'm not ashamed of wanting it from. From her. I'm. I'm. I'm with myself. I've got myself and I'm backed up by my men. I have a sense of community, real community, grounded community. And. And that just does something in the nervous system. I've. Countless men we've worked with, I've watched them transform. And there's this. Their eyes get bigger and brighter, their chests open up, their spines become more erect. They are more in their bodies, in their power, in their vitality, and that's sexy. We've had at least two guys in the last two months say things like, my wife initiated with me for the first time. And I swear to God, a decade we've had multiple men say things like that. And it's not. They aren't making huge, drastic changes. They're doing the inner work. They're doing the work. They're getting connected to community. They're doing the program, and they're changing. And as they change, the relationship changes. Can you speak to that at all?

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. I mean, this is the. You know, another simple way to think about polarity is just how do we actually create desire in the relationship? Right? A desire to be together and be intimate. And all the things you're talking about are really important. Important. You know, our program, we focus on one of the biggest masculine attributes, how to get present, how to actually be present. Often that alone can start to create polarity and eroticism. Now, to do that is where the deeper work comes in. That guys are like, oh, really? And what we're talking about is, well, to get president means you also can't be a ball of tension in your body that's stressed out and stuck in your head and really 10 tight, right? That's not presence. That's not going to allow her to relax in her body if you don't know how to relax in your body. So a lot of the work is doing structural work, learning to take care of ourselves. And guess what? One of the best ways to do that is it's to get into community like you're talking about, where we have a place to bring our attention, where we can get our bucket full, where we can get the feedback we need to get in life, which allows us to unwind all the stress we're carrying in our life. Here's the key. Before sex, not using sex as the sole tool to unwind the stress. That's where so many men get it wrong. In this polarity. I'm a ball of stress. Can we have sex? No, I don't want to have sex with that. Right. Like that sounds terrible. You know, I could just fictionally feel it in my body. But okay, I go do my stuff. I take care of myself, I go meditate, I do some embodiment practice practices. I connect to men. Spending time alone around other men will polarize. You see this all the time, right? Go deep on retreat. Been hanging out with guys, they go into the world, they are charged up with masculine energy. They're used to moving, talking, operating, speaking in a different way, in a more masculine way. Way that can be virtual, that can be in retreat. So spending deep, quality time, this is the other key thing with men is a big part of this. So it's not just, I hung out with my boys, it's the type of time you're spending together as men, which means this word that's, you know, so big in the work right now. It's time of depth. It takes you deeper into your lived experience, your felt body experience. You are more connected to yourself, your body, your heart. Heart you're more connected to now and you're less tense. It's one of the biggest ways to completely transform polarity. And our guys, you know, they see it in a sense, because guess what? Then to start to do that, you have to make different choices in your life. If you haven't been setting boundaries or you haven't been prioritizing yourself, to start to spend that time with other men in community, you have to change things. Things including. Even if it's just come into a Call with us. That's a period of your life where you're no longer available to other things. And that has consequences in how you show up, who you show up with, et cetera. So polarity is so deep because, like, there's the fun, sexy stuff. We do this work on our workshops. You learn it in the course. You know, how to breathe and be present and be the mountain. That stuff we can teach you literally in a masterclass. Like, we've done it. You know, we have that. Those. It's this deeper inner work of the presence, the tension in the community that is. It's more of an investment to do. And it's the part you cannot fake that allows you to do the very thing. You know, my teacher John used to tell us to be in that place of desire without need. Wow. I feel my desire for you. I'm lit up by you. Here's what I want. And I'm not attached to any of it because I got my life handled. I got my life handled. And when we can start to be in that space as men, that's where we can start to be a lot more playful with our sexuality, our desire, our connection. And then there's no pressure. Neither men nor women do well when sex is connected to pressure. Right? Pressure. That's it. So the more you can be in an unpressurized place and relaxed as a man and bring that into your partnership, the polarity is going to go through the roof and you're going to find your partner wants to be intimate with you or enjoys feeling your desire in another way. You know, that's the last part I'll just share. We work with a lot of nice guys. I hear this all the time. Partner literally has told him, I want you to be more direct and in your fire and in your power. I want you to take me. Now. This is in a consensual relationship with safety just means. It doesn't mean overpowering. That's not what I'm talking about. But it means I'm going to direct us into deeper connection like you said, and be like the follow and not have to make as many decisions in that more omega feminine role. Now, if I'm in sexual shame, I can't do. I can't lead that way in a man. If I don't understand my partner's body and nervous system, I can't lead that way because I'm going to be afraid of hurting her if I do all this work, then, yeah, I can say, here we go.

Melanie Curtin: Yeah, I love that. And the Other episode I'm going to drop in the show notes is the heart cock matrix. Because I think that kind of makes it even more concrete around. There's a type of energy that we create from men around, particularly around sexuality. And it's what you said about grounded, open but desiring, right? It's not just grounded and open. It's like, yeah, and I want you. I want you. I'm here and I want you. And I'm okay, I'm here, I'm relaxed, I'm grounded, I'm open, I'm available. And if you're not, if you're not ready right now, that's okay. That, that is very hot and sexy. And it is possible to get there, but it's not possible to get there alone. This has to be done in community. You need other people, you need to be in community. You can't be out there on your own lone wolfing it. It just does. It's just not effective. It just doesn't work. This isn't something that you can ask Claude about, right? Community is not something that you can AI your way out of. You have to be in connection. Someone the other day said something, something like, you can learn a lot with AI, but you can't practice empathy, you can't practice relating with human beings. You have to be in relationship with human beings to practice relating. And that's really what polarity is, especially with the, you know, the opposite sex or whatever sex you're attracted to. It's about practice, it's about presence, it's about all of the things that we're talking about. So if you are interested in our work work, you can go to jasonlang.com apply or evolutionary men apply and learn more about our work. I really do encourage you that one of the things that we hear a lot from our men is I wish I had done this kind of work sooner. I really wish I had done this years ago. My life would have been better. And I think that that's, you know, in large part because of the community that they got. It's not just because of the coaching and the content which is, which is useful and valuable and it's helpful to have mentors, yada, yada. But it's the high quality community and the ongoing high quality community, the ongoing men's group, the ongoing support. It's. It's like, it's like a whole new world opens up that's really different. And I think that I sort of just want to say I'm sorry to all of you men that are out there in this culture. This culture is really isolating for you. It really is. And it's really tough on the body. It's tough on the nervous system. You. You can restore it. It's restorative. You can get that community back. But it's just lonely. It can be really lonely. So, yeah, just sending you a hug out there if you're one of those guys feeling lonely. Any other comments before we wrap?

Jason Lange: It can change. And, you know, when this comes back on the online, it's such a deep gift often to partnerships and relationships, because it's often literally the energy, the fuel source, the connection. And like I said, as you learn to work this, you know, I hear this from couples all the time, you know, because a big part of this work is learning to process and clear and da, da, da. And as we build more trust and intimacy and know how to bring this online, oftentimes it's like the shortcut of, ah, okay, we could spend da, da, da, da. And sometimes when we know how to create this desire with each other and repolarize a relationship and get the sex life online, when we connect there, it just makes everything else easier. It's like, oh, I have more bandwidth. We're more us, we're more together. I remember why we're doing this all. So, yeah, cool, we can work that. So it can just bring a lot of energy back to our relationship.

Melanie Curtin: Relationship, yeah. Good. Sex is like lubricant for the relationship.

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Melanie Curtin: That seems like a good place to wrap.

Jason Lange: La.