The men most convinced they don't need to be vulnerable are usually the most controlled by their fear of it.
That was the through-line of my conversation on The Wisdom Transfer, and honestly, it's something I've seen play out with thousands of guys over the years.
We got into why men end up so disconnected from themselves in the first place. Not because anything is fundamentally broken in us, but because from very early on, we're taught that being a man means overriding whatever's happening in your body and your heart with your head. The school system reinforces it. Our peer groups pound it in. And the culture rewards the guy who never stops, never sleeps, never asks for help. So we end up with men who are incredibly capable on the outside and running on empty on the inside.
We talked about what actually happens inside a men's group, and specifically about triangulation, that default way men build connection by turning their attention to some third thing, a sporting event, politics, fixing something. There's some value in that. But it means you can spend a whole weekend with your closest friends and never once ask each other where you're actually hurting. That's the kind of loneliness no one names.
The vulnerability piece came up, and this one matters. The man most certain that showing emotion makes him weak is almost always being run by fear, not conviction. When we lock those emotions down and try to throw away the key, they don't disappear. They end up making all of our decisions for us. A truly free man isn't someone who doesn't feel grief or shame. He's someone who can go right into it, face it, metabolize it, and come out with more choice.
We also covered embodiment and what the vagal nerve actually tells us about body intelligence. 75% of the bandwidth running between your brain and your body goes body to brain. If you're not connected to your body, you're missing most of the data. And we got into nice guy syndrome, what it is, how it forms, and what the real work looks like.
If this conversation stirred something in you, I'd ask: where in your life are you relating on the surface, and what might be waiting if you went a little deeper?
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Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode on the podcast. Now a lot of men are struggling silently. Loneliness, disconnection, confusion about masculinity. The pressure to appear strong while feeling completely lost inside. Excuse me. The pressure to appear strong while feeling completely lost inside. For generations, men were taught to handle life alone. Don't cry, don't open up, don't ask for help, just carry it. But what if the lone wolf mindset is exactly what's waking men emotionally, mentally and spiritually. What if healing begins the moment men stop pretending they have everything figured out? Welcome to the wisdom transfer, where experience speaks to the future. Today's conversation is about masculinity, purpose, relationships, emotional growth, and why every man needs brotherhood. My wonderful, wonderful guest of today is Jason Lange, men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, an evolutionary guide, Jason helps men wake up to deeper clarity in their purpose, relationship and emotional lives. He's a Certified no More Mr. Nice Guy Coach and has trained with respected leaders including John Wineland, Dr. Robert Glover, Junpo Roshi, Trip Lanier, and Ken Wilbur. After struggling with loneliness, discomfort in his own body, and difficulty creating relationships in his early years, Jason discovered the life changing impact of men's work and men's group. Now part of his mission, he is helping men break free from isolation and create healthier expressions of masculinity, deeper intimacy, and stronger connections with their communities. JC welcome to the wisdom transfer.
Jason Lange: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Now, Jason, conversation. Can you just tell us a little bit about yourself?
Jason Lange: Yeah. So my journey into becoming a men's work facilitator and so passionate about men's groups really starts like you said, because of my own personal journey. In that in particular, you know, I was lucky enough to be raised kind of lower middle class white guy here in the United States, had all my basic security needs, food and shelter met. But as I transitioned into my teenage years in adulthood, what I quickly discovered was my family did not know how to connect emotionally or physically. So I was raised in a household of emotional neglect and physical neglect and had very little touch growing up and very little kind of emotional connection. And what that led to when I became a teenager, like I said, was I really struggled to connect to others. I felt really lonely, particularly at first, learning to connect with women. I'm heterosexual in my case, and I just, I couldn't do it. I would freeze up, I'd get clammy, I'd get really uncomfortable, even though I wanted to connect to them. And then Even with the men in my life I was making friends with at the time, I noticed they related to each other differently. They would kind of wrestle and horseplay, and I was just kind of missing the wiring for all this. And as such, felt lonely, isolated, depressed, anxious and numbed out with porn, masturbation, eventually alcohol, tv, overeating. And it led me on a journey to figure out, okay, there's gotta be a better way to be as a man here, and I need some help. And that eventually led me to my first men's group and my first types of somatic therapy, which really kind of combined to start to reformat how I was showing up as a man and give me the skills and capacities to learn how to create the kinds of connections I wanted in my life.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Wonderful answer, Jason. Now, Jason, many men are struggling internally, but don't talk about it openly. Why do you think so many men feel isolated today?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say it's a couple of different things. One, it's what we're taught generally as men. And this starts early, right? There's plenty of research that shows even as young kids, we're related to differently as boys than girls are often. And generally what starts to happen is from a very young age, we're taught, you know, to be a boy and eventually to be a man means to be tough, means you can get over it, you stop crying, you get back up, you get back out there. And there's some, you know, obviously some positive attributes to that. But what it starts to teach boys from a young age is, hey, whatever's happening inside your body and in your heart, emotionally, ignore it. Override it with your head. That's what a real man does. And then we move on, often to the mainstream kind of school system where the way it's been set up is you're supposed to sit still and pay attention for hours on end. But male bodies, particularly young boys, it's pretty noticeable, right? They need to move. They're very kinesthetic. We have a lot of energy, and we learn through our bodies as much as anything else. And so we're put into a school system that says, hey, if you can't sit still, there's something wrong with you. So that urge to move, that desire to move your body, override that with your head, right? Sit still. And then if you can't, you're considered a problem child, and we gotta discipline you or put you on meds or something. Then we get into adolescence, right, where our peer relationships start to become really important. Boys, our bodies start to develop at different times. Some boys hit puberty sooner, some later, and in and out group dynamics become very important. And what most boys learn very quickly is if I show any kind of vulnerability or weakness or grief, I'm going to be bullied or ostracized or excluded from my peer group. So I better lock that down, not share it. Act tough, look cool, and once again override what's happening in my body with my head. And then we go out into the world and, you know, at least here where I am. But I think more and more all over, what are we rewarded for as men? Oh my God, he works 80 hours a week. He's such a hard worker. He never gives up. He just keeps going. He sleeps under his desk. And turns out, what does that come at the cost of our bodies?
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Sure.
Jason Lange: Our physical health, our emotional health, and often our relationships. So we are not only taught to be out of our bodies, we're often rewarded for it as, as men in our culture. So that's happening. And then on top of that, you know, we're just living in a quickly changing society where a lot of the social structures that used to hold us together are being frayed. And more and more is moving online, Virtual work from home, all these things that can kind of contribute to men feeling more isolated than ever. And this has real stats, right? Three out of four suicides in a bunch of western nations are men, right. It's men who are more likely to commit suicide and men who suffer from heart disease, which, lo and behold, what have they found? Loneliness is just as dangerous as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. It has that much of an impact on your health and well being. And all of this internalizes that. Men are taught that to be a man means to be tough, to be invulnerable, hold it all inside, don't share vulnerably. And over time, what that does is it isolates men and eventually it can kill them.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Absolutely wonderful answer, Jason. Now, you said, you said every man should be part of a men's group. What happens inside those spaces that changes men so deeply?
Jason Lange: Yeah. So inside a men's group, there's lots of different types of men's group. But the main thing that starts to happen is we learn to relate to each other and go under the surface, so to speak, of our lives, to get really connected to what we're feeling and experiencing and needing as men. So a lot of men, the way they relate by default is through what I call triangulation. So me and you, we build connection with each other by turning our attention to some third thing. We're watching a sporting event. We're playing a sporting event. We're fishing, we're fixing something. We're talking about some kind of politics or culture. But what we're not doing is putting our attention on each other and asking, hey, what is going on for you? Where are you in pain? What are you wanting? What's in the way? What are you celebrating? These things that we're just not taught how to do as men. And so a lot of men, it's not even the stereotype of a lonely man as a man who has no friends. No, it's just as likely to be a man who has a lot of friends, just went out to the bars with his buddy or spent the weekends with some of his old guy friends, but they never talked about what's actually going on in life, the pain they're each in. And so you can hang out with people but still feel alone, something I definitely experienced a lot when I was young. And so a men's group shifts that to, we're going to put our attention on each other. And what this does is it slows men down, gets them into their bodies, gets them connected to what they're feeling, and helps them get clear about what in their life is out of alignment and where they need support to change it. And so this is one of the most key things, is it helps men stay on track to build the life they want to build. And it helps you as a man get there faster because you start to get feedback from other, other men who care about you and will reflect often the things you don't want to hear or haven't been able to see about yourself and that are getting in your own way, so to speak.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Now, Jason, you know, a lot of men grew up believing vulnerability makes them weak. How does that belief damage relationships and emotional health?
Jason Lange: Yeah, it's so damaging to men. Because here's the paradox, though. Men who believe vulnerability makes you weak, what they are actually falling prey to is fear. Almost always, they are actually driven by fear. If I get vulnerable, I'm going to be seen as less than a man. I'm going to get attacked, whatever that might be. So those men are often actually just scared because they've never been shown how to be vulnerable. Or they have a fear that, oh, my God, if I ever let myself really feel my fear or my grief or my shame, I think it would overwhelm me and I wouldn't know what to do. And I think my Life would be ruined. And so instead, what ends up happening is men become controlled by the things they're unwilling to feel. If we throw all of our emotions, all of our vulnerability on lockdown, push it far down in our body and try to throw away the key, all of that emotional content ends up running our lives. Because then we'll start to take actions whether we're conscious of it or not, to help us avoid feeling those feelings. And so we're not actually free, because what we're doing is running through life trying to avoid feeling vulnerable. And a free man, a truly free man, isn't afraid of his emotions, his grief, his anger, his sadness, his shame, his disgust. He goes right into him and faces them and metabolizes them. And what that allows him to do is to choose more the life he wants to choose. And this isn't just theoretical. I've seen, you know, I've worked with thousands of guys, and what I can tell you is, particularly as men enter middle age, all of those lockdown emotions, they take energy and metabolic resource inside of us. So we start to get tight, we start to get tense, we get irritable or depressed. We don't have energy to do the things we want to do, to be present for our spouses or kids or families or communities. And you can free all of that up by learning to face your emotional self and be vulnerable. And then here's the real kicker. The very things most men judge the most as being weak. So I can't be vulnerable because that would make me seem weak when we share those things. Entrusted male community. So I'm not saying you do this with every man you meet on the street, but this is why the potency of something like a men's group where you self select each other, is so key. When we share those vulnerabilities with each other, they're actually the things that free us the most and make us feel the most connected to the people we shared it to. And they feel us the most. So it's one of the antidotes to that loneliness so many men feel.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Can you hear me, Jason?
Jason Lange: Yeah, you're back now.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): So my next question to you, Jason, is, you know, you work with the concept of embodiment. What does it actually mean for men to become more embodied?
Jason Lange: Yeah. So most men, without realizing it, are running through life living from the neck up, meaning their attention primarily lies on their thoughts, they're thinking a lot. Embodiment is the process of including the rest of our body in our awareness. So it means connecting and Actually paying attention to what is happening in my body. And this is something that men who practice this and the type of work I do, you can get feedback on pretty fast. Right. Intuitively, often without the words. Women will notice in particular when a man's just up in his head and they will trust him less versus when they can feel him breathing and in contact with his full body. And it's so important for us men because here's the thing, even guys who think everything I'm talking about is woo woo, right? They're like, ah, I don't know. That sounds like garbage.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Yeah.
Jason Lange: Every man I've ever met wants to be a more effective leader in their life. They want to be able to lead themselves, lead the people around them they care about, lead their communities. And the wild thing about our nervous systems is, right, we have this bundle of nerve that goes down from our brain stem all the way down our spine. It's called the vagal nerve. And it's basically kind of the bundle of nerves that connects our brain to our body. And the wild thing is if we imagine that nerve system is like a two lane highway, two lane road, right?
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Yeah.
Jason Lange: Only about 25% of the bandwidth of that channel is brain to body. 75% of it is body to brain, meaning there's more information flowing from our body to our brain than vice versa. And so if you want to be an effective leader in the moment, but you're not connected to your body, guess what? You're missing out on an incredible amount of data and signals that you can use to inform your decision making process. And they have tons of research on this. Right. We call it trusting your gut for a reason. Often there's this process and they've actually shown, right, there's not only neurons in our brain, but there's basically the equivalent of neurons around our heart and in our gut. So if we're not connected to those, we're not actually as intelligent as we might be and we're not going to be as effective at the things we want to be. So embodiment is that process of getting connected and paying attention. It's very simple to what's going on in our body right now. It brings us into the present, it gives us more information to become better leaders. And the people around us often relax the more we're grounded in our bodies and not just stuck up in our heads.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Wow. Absolutely, absolutely wonderful answer, Jason. Now, Jason, many men struggle with, you know, purpose and direction. How important is brotherhood and accountability when it comes to helping men grow
Jason Lange: yeah, it's so important. The masculine, whether inside us as men or, you know, we all have access to masculine energy, but men in particular tend to gravitate towards it and have that as a home base. The masculine in all of us grows through feedback.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Yeah.
Jason Lange: It means we take on a challenge, we try to do something, and then we get feedback on is that working or not? Sounds super simple, but that is how we grow. And without feedback, we don't grow as fast. So one of the main things a men's group in men's community will do is give us feedback about how we're showing up in our bodies, in our lives, and in the decisions we're making. And this is a thing a lot of men don't realize how much they're craving until they experience it. Right. I call it the spinach in the teeth moment. Therapist Terry Real calls it carefrontation. And essentially it's like, hey, me and you, right? We're hanging out and we're talking and you're like, hey, Jason, do you realize, man, you got a big old piece of spinach in your teeth, man, it looks kind of gross. And I'm like, oh, my God, I feel so embarrassed. I get the spinach out of my teeth, but then I'm like, hey, thank you. Thank you for telling me that, because I wasn't aware of that. And in fact, I've been walking around all day, I've talked to dozens of people, and no one told me I had this big ugly piece of spinach in my teeth. So now I trust you more. I trust you to tell me what I need to be the best version of myself. And that's what a men's group will really do. It'll help us stay on track.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Yeah.
Jason Lange: Get clear about where we're moving to and who we want to be. And then it'll also help us point out when we're way off track, when our behavior is exhibiting traits we don't actually want to embody in our life. And then, rather than attacking us with shame, a good group will come at us and say, hey, man, I care about you too much to see you mess up your life like this. What's going on? What kind of help do you need? What do you need to talk about? And as men start to experience that, it completely changes the system for them, completely changes their way of being. Because the feeling is, oh my God, I'm not alone. I have people tracking me in my behavior and my well being. And in some sense, it gives me even more permission to Follow my intuition and impulses rather than second guessing myself all the time because I know I'm part of a system of men who will let me know if I'm way off track.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Wow. Wow. Absolutely. Another wonderful answer, Jason. Now, you also coach on the nice guy pattern. What are some signs a man may be stuck in that pattern without even realizing it?
Jason Lange: Yeah. So nice guys are kind of a evolutionary adaptation that's been showing up more and more in men where, you know, for a long time, masculinity was kind of the traditional my way or the highway dominated or be dominated energy. So I'm just going to take what I want, do what I want, damn the consequences. And most of us have seen, if not in our own personal lives, at least at a cultural level, what kind of damage those kind of men can do. So a whole generation and generations of men grew up around those men. They were abused by those men. They saw what those men did and they said, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be the dangerous man that hurts other people. So what I'm gonna do is go the opposite direction. And I never wanna make anyone uncomfortable and I never wanna hurt anyone or make anyone feel unsafe. And so what nice guys do is they prioritize other people's well being above their own. And in the process, they disconnect from their needs, wants, desires, and truth. Nice guys often have a lot of codependency and are often very conflict avoidant. So they have a hard time setting boundaries and they have a really hard time asking directly for what they want or need and they fall prey to this thing. Well, if I'm just nice enough to everybody, then I'll get what I want and I'll never have to get rejected and be vulnerable. Right? But what it ends up creating often is a lot of resentment, anger and exhaustion in nice guys because they're putting out all of this care and attention, but they're not getting any of it back. So some signs are you have a hard time setting boundaries, you often struggle with codependency, you're conflict avoidant, and you have a really hard time asking directly for what you need. And so the work of nice guys is not to stop being nice, Right? We get to still care about each other's. The whole work is to just do that without sacrificing ourselves and abandoning ourselves in the process. So, hey, I want this, what do you want? Right. And sometimes that leads to conflict. And we learn as nice guys to stay in that conflict, to stay in the discomfort and negotiate our way through. In some sense, we learn to set strong boundaries and say no to things. We learn to be independent and so that our own sense of well being isn't dependent on the well being of those around us. So it's a very fast growing population of men that, you know, has some different issues than some of the traditional kind of masculinity, but it's just a big deal. And in some sense, a lot of the guys I work with, they. They fall on a spectrum of, frankly, they either have too much energy kind of in their balls, in their lower body and I want power go take, or they have too much energy up in their hearts, their sensitivity, their attunement. And the real work of modern men is to embody both and balance them.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Wow. And Jason, my final question to you is, you know, this podcast is called the Wisdom Transfer. So I love to ask you, if it could transfer one piece of wisdom to the younger generation of men about masculinity, relationships, and personal growth, what would you want them to know?
Jason Lange: Yeah, this simple theme we've already talked about. You will grow faster as a man in community and more and more as we move forward in the world. A friend of mine once said, community is immunity. It gives you the tools to navigate the deep challenges of life. So men who are in community with other men I've worked with, like I said, thousands of them, they end up getting more of what they want. They become physically healthier, they get into better intimate relationships, they end up making more money because their nervous systems are more regulated, they're more willing to take risks, and they're part of a system in a brotherhood that can support them when they can't support themselves. So in particular, if you're a man out there, you've probably been fed a lot of the wisdom of, hey, you got to do it all yourself. Pick yourself up by the bootstraps, achieve, achieve, achieve. But don't ever ask for help. And the truth is, getting support and this kind of connection will make you more of a man than you could ever have imagined.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Wow. Wow. Absolutely, absolutely wonderful wisdom Transcribed Jason. Now, Jason, you know, for anyone listening right now, our whole conversation has resonated with and they would love to know much more about what you do about the men's group, you know, or just want to get in touch with you for, you know, help, you know, advice or anything. How can they find you?
Jason Lange: Yeah. So best way to keep up with me and everything I'm talking about here is just go to my website at Evolutionary Men. And on there you'll see the programs I run, tons of podcasts and articles and all kinds of stuff talking about this new healthy masculinity, men's groups and communities, and there's all kinds of stuff there to help you get started on your own journey, whether it's with me or not. But, you know, there's never a better time than now to start building this kind of community because you just never know what's right around the corner for you. And in moments of real crisis, what we rely on is the community we've built up alongside of us. So you can never get too far ahead in terms of investing in the social capital of your life.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Thank you so much for that, Jason. Now, everyone, as Jason just said, if you're listening and you're the person, you're a person who wants to learn more about Jason's work or book a free. Excuse me. I'm so sorry for coughing in the middle of our conversation. Jason, I've been having a bad code.
Jason Lange: It's okay. Okay, yeah, no worries.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Like I was saying, if any. For anyone listening right now who our whole conversation resonated with, and you want to know more about Jason's work, you can learn more about his work through his website, evolutionarymen.com. jason, am I getting that right?
Jason Lange: That's right.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Wonderful.
Jason Lange: Or sorry, it's just evolutionary dot men. So it's not dot com, but instead of com, you'll just type evolutionary dot men.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Oh, okay. Okay, everyone. So sorry for that is evolutionary document, as Jason said. Now, lastly to everybody, excuse me. No man was meant to carry life alone. Strength is not emotionally silent. Strength is honesty. Sorry, that's that. Strength is not emotionally silenced. Strength is honesty, connection, growth, and the courage to fully be human. Today, conversation reminds us that healing begins when men stop hiding behind performance and start showing up authentically. To Jason, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for your time.
Jason Lange: Yeah, so, so happy to be here. Help you. Thank you for helping me get out the word.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Thank you so much, Jason, and we hope you have a wonderful, wonderful rest of your day. And please don't forget to mark complete or podge matrix and post this wonderful episode we just had. Subscribe to margins. Thank you again, Jason, and have a wonderful day.
Jason Lange: Okay, thanks so much.
Host (The Wisdom Transfer): Bye bye.
Jason Lange: Take care.
