The man who can say "I'm not okay right now" is usually doing better than the man who insists he's fine.
That's the paradox I kept coming back to in this conversation, and it cuts to something I see constantly in the men I work with. We've been taught from a young age that strength means not needing anyone. Figure it out alone. Don't show weakness. And for a lot of guys, that program runs so deep they don't even know it's running.
The stats are hard to ignore. Around 1990, about 3% of men reported having no close friends. By the mid-2010s, that had jumped to 15%. I'd guess we're higher now, post-COVID, with remote work and all the ways community has frayed. And the cost shows up everywhere, in men's health, in relationships, in that slow hollowing-out that happens when a man has spent 20 years providing but nobody actually knows him.
We talked about what that looks like specifically for fathers. There's a script a lot of us got handed: build the career, take care of the family, hold it together. And it can work, for a while. But 20 years in, when the kids leave and the relationship goes quiet, a lot of men look around and realize they've got no real friendships and they've been running on fumes without even knowing it.
We also got into how most men are actually wired to connect, which is through triangulation. Side by side, attention on a third thing, a game, a project, a ski weekend. Nothing wrong with it. But it doesn't scratch the real itch. What feeds the male nervous system is face to face, going under the surface, actually saying what's happening inside. And most men have never learned to do that.
One image I keep coming back to: there's just one pipe. When we clamp down on the hard stuff, the fear, the grief, the shame, we also clamp down on joy and love and presence. That's why so many men are walking around flat and don't know why.
What would it look like to actually have men in your life who know what's going on inside you?
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Host (Father Talks): Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode of the Father Talks podcast. I am your host, Mike D. I am here with my special guest, Mr. Jason Lange. Jason, welcome to the show.
Jason Lange: Yeah. So excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Host (Father Talks): Outstanding. I'm glad to have you here. You know, took us a little while to get together, but, you know, I'll give you the floor here. Two seconds. I want to give you a good introduction. So, ladies and gentlemen, Jason is a men's embodiment coach. Uh, he's a men's embodiment coach. Sorry, excuse me. Group facilitator and evolutionary guide. He helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their lives, lives, purpose, and relationships. He believes every man should be in a men's group for the growth and support opportunities they provide. Actually, Jason, that is awesome, because I actually spoke to another guest who had a similar, you know, point, you know, point of view where he was like, you know what? Mental. We don't have any groups that we're a part of anymore, you know, and we. Because of that, I think we lack community where we can. Where there's people we can lean on, you know? So with that being said, tell us some more about what you're doing.
Jason Lange: Yeah, man. My journey. So I'm a father of two. I've been in the men's work world for, you know, 20 years. I've been in men's groups myself since my mid-20s. So I feel very lucky in that sense, in that in a lot of ways, the most abundant resource I have in my life is high quality connections with amazing men.
Host (Father Talks): Okay.
Jason Lange: And in my journey, what I've really discovered is this is an incredible need for men in particular. And that, I think is kind of really hitting a boiling point in our culture right now.
Host (Father Talks): Right?
Jason Lange: Yeah, this is. This is a real thing I see too, where, you know, sometimes guys I work with, they literally just don't have any connection, right. In their life. But some men do, right? It's like, oh, yeah, I went out with my buddies, we went fishing, or we went to the sports bar. Um, but then they come home, right? I had a client recently who did a ski weekend with a bunch of guys he grew up with, right? But he came home from that weekend, and he was feeling incredibly lonely because he's in the midst of a massive transition potentially with his relationship.
Host (Father Talks): Okay.
Jason Lange: But they just don't talk about that, right? We don't talk about that stuff. They're like, oh, you're having a hard time, right? And then that was it. The guys don't know how to go deeper. So this points to some of the ways we're raised in the culture we're raised in, particularly as boys and men, where we're not taught how to connect. Most men, by default, learn to connect through triangulation, right? Which is me and you have our attention on some third thing, right? An activity, a sports game, right? We're side by side. We're. Oh, that's the thing. And then we feel a little connection from that. And, you know, that's great. There's a time and place for that. But what that misses is me and you facing each other, looking each other eye to eye and going under the surface, hey, what's going great in your life right now? What's not going great? Where are you in pain? Where do you feel overwhelmed? Where do you feel stressed? A lot of guys don't know how to talk about that. They've not been taught to talk about that. And when we can't talk about that stuff, we can be in a room with guys we love but feel so lonely because they don't actually know what's going on inside of us. And sometimes, frankly, as men, we don't know what's going on inside of us because people don't teach us, right.
Host (Father Talks): How to articulate it.
Jason Lange: How to articulate it, how to know what's happening in our body, how to talk about that in some deep ways. So there's all of these kind of forces swirling together that kind of push us men into this experience of often feeling alone, like we got the weight of the world on our shoulders.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: Oh, my God, my mortgage is due, and the economy's going crazy right now. I don't know if I'm going to have a job in three months. But, man, I don't want to talk to my wife and kids about that because I don't want to freak them out.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: If I'm scared, they're going to get scared. So I'm just going to hold it all inside. Right. It'll be tough. I'm figuring it out. It's all good, you know. How's your day? Fine. Like, that's. That's how a lot of us men, you know, are raised. And so these groups, you know, that I'm passionate about, men's groups become a space where we're allowed to connect to what we're really feeling.
Host (Father Talks): Yes.
Jason Lange: And we're able to share that and why it's so potent, particularly when it's other men, is, guess what? Once we do go under the surface, it's like, oh, my God, no, I totally get it. I'm doing the same thing. Like, oh, man, I feel you so much. Right. Like, there's that shared reality that is such a relief for men when they actually get to feel it. Of, oh, wait, I'm not alone. I'm not the only one struggling. Because I thought everybody I see on Instagram had the best relationship and best vacations and everything was going great. But a lot of times that's just the image, Right. People don't post the more challenging things that are going on inside. And so us men, we need to learn to cultivate that. And I think it's particularly important for fathers, because we do. Right. Often it is family work us last. But, you know, the platitude exists for a reason where they say, you know, you got to put the oxygen mask on yourself first.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: And we can be of even deeper service to our families when we're taking good care of ourselves, which also means getting social connection, getting help, getting support when we need it so we don't have to hold all of the Stress and tension in our bodies, which so many men do. And, you know, I like to say it's like we kind of come into the world with a preloaded debit card full of energy and chi. And, you know, when we're in our 20s, we just crank it. Late nights, we might party, we're working hard, start to hit our 30s, and particularly our 40s and 50s, and it's like, oh, wait, that. That's not unlimited anymore. I can't bounce back. I can't just push through. I gotta make it turns out. Yeah. And it just turns out that all of the tension we hold in our bodies, it takes the precious life force and energy we need as men, particularly as we age to. And if we don't handle some of this sometimes more intense internal stuff, it shows up. Sickness, depression, emotional issues, mental issues. And so getting connected into a group of men where we can deal with that stuff. Why I love it so much is I see men come back alive.
Host (Father Talks): Right? Yeah. And I will say I had a guest on a couple of weeks back, and he said something very similar that. So he had a friend. They've been friends since high school. Right. They went to same college. Everything played the same sports together. They've been friends forever in a day. So long story short, they're sitting down one day, he finds out that the friends get into a divorce and has been dealing with this issue with his wife for like 10 years. And he didn't, like, the friend, never knew about it. So we have been through all of this stuff together, and you didn't tell me the most serious thing happening in your life, you've been dealing with it alone, you know, and we both agreed that it's because we just don't know how to open up, you know, and have real conversations. Because having a real conversation sometimes makes us feel inadequate or it makes us feel weak, you know, because I've got these issues and I'm supposed to be a man. Supposed to be something, you know, as a man, I'm supposed to be able to take care of, you know, and nobody can do it alone.
Jason Lange: That's right. So that's exactly it. And it's that tendency to hold it all inside. Because for so many of us men, you know, our success in our relationship, in our job, our ability to provide, that becomes our identity.
Host (Father Talks): Yeah.
Jason Lange: So we're afraid to share. Oh, my God, that's not going well. Because I don't want to be a failure. I don't want people to see me as a failure or think less of me or think I'm weak or a sissy or, you know, all the things that get put on us men growing up. But the good, you know, news is when we drop underneath that, it actually makes us a lot stronger.
Host (Father Talks): Okay.
Jason Lange: Right. When we can talk about these things, when we can get real and get some actual support from other men. Right. This is a lesson I've had to learn so many times. Right. Some. Some challenge I have and okay, no, I'll figure it out myself. And so doing research or experimenting or what? And then turns out I asked someone, it's like, oh, they told me how to do it in two minutes. And I just wasted three months trying to figure it out on my own. Right. It's just like tale as old as time of like, just ask for help. It's okay. It doesn't make you weaker. It actually helps you get more of what you want as a man.
Host (Father Talks): Outstanding. So moving on. You said that, you mentioned that every man, every man should be in a men's group. Right. So what about those men? What are you doing? What about those men who aren't in a men's group? You know what's happening with them?
Jason Lange: Yeah. What I say, you know, there's so many benefits to being in a group, but one I often talk about is us men. We care about being effective.
Host (Father Talks): Yeah.
Jason Lange: Right. We want to be able to do the things we want to do, create the things we want to do, have the success we want to have. And a good men's group will help you do that because it does two things. Primarily, when we get knocked off center. Right. When something doesn't go our way. A group is a place for us to help recover. Guys can be present with us, support us when we're down or depressed or scared or whatever that might be, and just provide us some connection, which if nothing else, what it helps us do is regulate our nervous system, come back to our center and get back to it. Right. Like it's kind of that simple.
Host (Father Talks): Yeah.
Jason Lange: So that's a huge thing that a lot of guys don't have. And in the absence of that, when something knocks them off their center, if they have a challenge or something, what a lot of guys default to is, well, if I'm not feeling good inside, I need to use something on the outside to shift my internal state. Alcohol, weed, porn, sex.
Host (Father Talks): Yeah.
Jason Lange: Overworking paychecks, buying stuff, you name it. That doesn't really get to the root often of it, which what we really need is just presence and love and co regulation. Hey, man, it's okay. You messed up. I'm here with you. I messed up too. Like, right? I messed up so many times in my life, right? Guys take a deep breath. They're like, oh, my God, this is okay. Then the other thing a group will do is, right? So some guys are like, well, is it just about being vulnerable and feelings and crying sometimes, but not all the time, right? The other thing a good group will do, though, is it helps keep you on track, helps hold you accountable to move towards the things you say are most important in your life. The kind of man you want to be, the kind of work you want to create in the world, the way you want to be in a relationship. A men's group will give you honest feedback about how you're being experienced and showing up in your life.
Host (Father Talks): Okay?
Jason Lange: And it's not. It doesn't come from a place of shame, of, hey, man, you said you do to do and you didn't, right? No, it comes from a place of, I care about you, I love you, you've told me what you want in the world, and yet this is happening, right? And I feel a mismatch. And I love you so much. I'm calling you forward around this, right? I call it the spinach in the teeth moment, right? It's like you're walking around all day and someone finally stops you and you're like, man, you know, you got a big piece of spinach in your teeth right there. And you're first. It's like, oh, man. Really? I do. But then the second thing is, thank you for telling me. Cause I've been walking around all day and no one else bothered to tell me, and I look like an idiot. Now I have more trust right now I have more trust for you because you confronted me with care, Right? Terry Real calls this carefrontation. And it's one of the things I see so, so many men longing for and not actually realizing how much they're missing and wanting that people who are tracking them, how they're showing up in life and what they're creating and give them honest feedback about how that's going of, hey, man, you said you wanted to do this, and yet you're doing the same fight with your wife again, right? Like, you keep blaming her for it, but what's going on on your side? And then a man has to look at himself and really own his part. And when men start to feel that kind of care, wow, these guys care about me so much, they're not going to let me get away with my Shit that I always try to pull, right? They're going to go through that. They're going to look through that deeper, man. It's such an incredible experience for men when they start to feel that I got guys on my team, they're actually care. Right. They're on my team tracking me so I can get more done. So the guys that don't have a group, right, it's like. It's like they're running on fumes is what I see. And they don't even know it till they get plugged into a group and a support network. And then it's like, whoa, there's so much more possible here. So much more gas in the tank. I didn't even realize I was just running on fumes for two decades there. But now with a group like this, I can try more, I can experiment more. I can take more bold risks in my life. And if they don't work out, it's okay. Cause I got a safe place to land.
Host (Father Talks): Right. Outstanding. So I was sitting there, and again, I was looking through some of the work that you were doing. So my next question would be then for the guy who. Who looks like he's okay from the outside, you know, what's the difference between the guy who looks okay and the guy who's actually okay?
Jason Lange: Yeah, the guy who's actually okay can tell you very quickly when he's not okay.
Host (Father Talks): Okay, Right.
Jason Lange: This is the paradox, right? He's like, hey, man, like, I'm not doing well today. I'm struggling. I'm having a really hard time in my marriage or something's going on with my kid or. Yeah, I got some feedback at work and it's killing me.
Host (Father Talks): Yeah.
Jason Lange: Paradoxically, the fact that he can talk about it means he has more space around it, right? So I see this emotionally all the time with guys, right? Where it turns out the man who's afraid to grieve or be angry or feel his shame or his fear, he's living in fear, right? But the man who's like, hey, man, I am just gutted. I'm a wreck today. I'm so sad or I'm so scared. And he's just present in that he's not afraid of it.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: And turns out that's a much easier place to be. Because what we learn is to work with this not okay stuff so much faster. Where there's guys I work with, I kid you not, you know, in their 50s, 60s, 70s, who we do some deep shadow work or emotional work, right? And they feel something in their nervous system that they have been carrying day in and day out for decades, which means for decades, a part of their awareness has been around this horrible thing that happened or some kind of grief or some kind of fear. And guess what? Every time we're carrying something like that, part of us in any given moment is tracking that thing, which means we're less present in our life, right? We're less present in our relationships. We're not fully here. So the men who are okay, in a sense, they can talk about this stuff, they can metabolize it, they can be with it in very quick, often efficient ways, which let them get back to okay. And now what I want to do with my full presence and attention and life force, rather than having it trapped as often it is for us guys, is all this kind of tension in our physical body, in our heart, that we try so hard to numb out to or not feel or not avoid. Some guys, we just try to get laid so we can feel that momentary release of tension, which then puts all kind of pressure on our sex life and our relationship. So, you know, these two guys can often look very similar from the outside. But the man who can step into this space, you know, with other men being more emotional, he's just going to be healthier, he's going to be happier, he's going to have more access to joy, partly because he has more access to his fear, his grief, his anger, all of that. Right. One of my first men's coach, he gave me this metaphor that's pretty popular in the work, right. When it comes to emotions and feeling, there's just one pipe. There's just one pipe.
Host (Father Talks): Yeah.
Jason Lange: So if we clamp down, oh, I can't feel that. Can't feel that fear, can't feel that grief. Guess what? You're also clamping down on the good stuff.
Host (Father Talks): I was just about to say everything,
Jason Lange: joy, love, peace, all of that gets constricted, too. And so no wonder why this day and age, so many men are walking around flat depressed. I just. I don't feel alive. Well, they're not feeling some of the bad stuff, but they're not feeling the good stuff. And, you know, that's the real main mechanism behind so many current or modern SSRIs, you know, antidepressants, right? Is they just flatten your experience, right? So the range of what you can feel gets narrower. So you can't dip as low. But guess what? You don't get to feel as high either. I was about to say, and there's A time and place for those kind of pharmaceuticals. I'm not anti them, but long term, the more we can feel, including what we would kind of call the dark notes on the scale, the more we get to feel the light notes on the scale.
Host (Father Talks): Okay, so explain to me what the man box is.
Jason Lange: Yeah, well, we've started talking about this a little bit, but the man box, right? Kind of popularized by this guy Tony Porter. And you could literally think of it as a box. And as long as you check certain attributes, you fit in the box. If you don't, you don't fit in the box. So to be a man means you gotta be these things.
Host (Father Talks): Okay.
Jason Lange: Biggest one for so many men is to be a man means you're invulnerable, right? You don't share weakness. You don't cry. You don't get scared. You're tough. You pick yourself up by your bootstraps. And no matter what you do, you figure it out. Man box also often means. Yeah, you figure it out. Alone. Alone is better than asking for help, right? Tough is better than weak. Invulnerable is better than vulnerable. Winning is the most important thing you can do. You can start to just feel the culture of this. Even for a lot of men, other men are competition. They're not your allies. That's a huge part of the man box. Um, a big one. I see impact. Men way more than people realize is if sex is available to you, you should take it. And if you don't, you're less of a man. Right. That's a huge pressure on a lot of guys. Oh, yeah. You know, she wants me, so I should, you know, did. It's like, no, I actually don't want to be sexual with her. Right first in that man's box. So it's this narrow way of being. We try to conform to. To consider ourselves a man. And, you know, there's some of these attributes that are the same in all cultures. Some change in different cultures, but there's a lot you can start to feel of. Oh, yeah, we get programmed with this stuff for a long time. Mind, you know, Another one is mind over matter, right? All the toughness, culture of, oh, just keep pushing, just keep pushing. Uh, we get this stuff from such a young age. Stop crying. You're fine. Yeah, I was right, right?
Host (Father Talks): Men don't. Boys don't cry. You know, boys.
Jason Lange: Boys don't cry. That's the man box. You know what that teaches a boy? What you're feeling inside doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Override it with your head.
Host (Father Talks): Yeah.
Jason Lange: That has massive consequences for men downstream in life when suddenly they're working 80. Right. Think about our culture now. We celebrate men who work 80 hours a week and sleep under their desk.
Host (Father Talks): Yeah.
Jason Lange: What do you think that comes at the cost of their health, their body, their relationships?
Host (Father Talks): So what's, what's something that, you know as men, you know, we've all been taught, you know, growing up, but it's currently destroying all of our relationships.
Jason Lange: Yeah. Well, I think we just nailed it. Don't feel, right. The feeling is weakness.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: Because we bury all this stuff down inside and we suffer. It's just it, right? We suffer as men. I mean, the, the suicide stats are bleak.
Host (Father Talks): Yes.
Jason Lange: Three out of four suicides are men. Why? For all the reasons we're talking about when there's so much pain inside and we don't know what to do with it. For some men, the calculation they make is, well, then I'm out of here, right? I just, I can't handle it, right? And I don't have the connection or support around me. And that is a poison in men, right? That, hey, whatever you're feeling inside, it's wrong. And you shouldn't be weak and you shouldn't be feeling that way. You shouldn't feel shame. All that stuff, it destroys us from the inside out. And then it shows up in our relationships too, right? This is one again. So many of us men don't have enough connection and community in our life, don't have a place where we can be vulnerable or talk about what's going on inside. But what's one of the one places men feel like they can do that? Their intimate relationship. And so if we have nowhere to go other than our intimate relationship, guess what that does. And that puts a lot of pressure on our intimacy. Now, this person is our lover, our co parent, our occasional therapist, our best friend. That's. We ask a lot from our primary partnerships these days. And that gets a lot of men into trouble, right? In that they get into relationships that aren't healthy for them or they stay in them too long. Because the calculation is, well, this is better than being alone. If I don't have this, I'm going to be alone. So I'll get into, you know, I'll take what I can get versus what I see. When guys get into healthy connection with other men, of, wow, I gotta be honest. Like, my relationship is dysfunctional. It's causing me so much pain, and I'm not okay with that anymore, right? And then Change starts to happen.
Host (Father Talks): Yeah. But. Okay, so what I found, though, is that men, we. Sometimes we find a partner, you know, that says, hey, you know what? Whatever you're going through, I'm here for you. But that's only true to a certain extent, you know, so you're not. Your partner wants you to pour your heart out and everything and have these conversations, but at the very same time, they don't want you to do it too much. Yeah, this is the, you know, I
Jason Lange: want to make such a painful thing. Yeah.
Host (Father Talks): I need for guys, you know, who's very manly, who's very this. But he also, you know, expresses his emotions. He does this, he does that. I mean, the demand on men, you know, left or right, is always extreme. You know, like a man. Let's say we'll use a man who raises, you know, a single dad. We'll say a single dad who raises two kids all by himself, you know, will never get the same respect that of his female counterpart did, or his kids will judge him differently than had it been a mom who did it on her own. How do we, you know, how do we get away from these things? Because, you know, you can't tell me, hey, open up to me, you know? But then tell me. Well, just a little bit, you know.
Jason Lange: Yeah, yeah. It's a real pain point, and it's a trap or. Right. I see. I actually see this really does play out in relationships. Right. So, you know, I mostly work with men who are in heterosexual relationships. I'll speak towards that. But the woman's like, hey, I don't feel you. I don't feel connected to you. I want to feel your heart. I want you to be vulnerable. What's going on inside? Okay. Okay. He's got all this programming all these years. He starts to bring it forward. She's like, ah, I don't like that. Right. That's too much for me. Like, you're freaking me out. That feels less manly. And he's like double hurt because he brought the vulnerable thing forward. And then she was like, ah, that's too much. Right. So what you're speaking towards is one of what I kind of call the new currencies for us men to develop is. Is fluidity. So it is the capacity to be. Yeah. Able to deeply step into our masculine, but also be able to deeply step into our feminine. Right. And these aren't related just to biology. These are just energies. Right. These are different ways of being in the world that everybody has access to. And it is changing. Right. Another stat I saw it was something like, I think it was in like 1982. 3%. Only 3% of fathers had ever changed a diaper. Oh, not that long ago.
Host (Father Talks): Right. That's crazy.
Host (Father Talks): Yeah.
Jason Lange: She's like, oh my God. Okay, great. You're being held by these men who trust you and love you. So I'm not the only one holding you.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: Paradoxically, what that does is it offer make often makes her feel more free to start loving on you. Then.
Host (Father Talks): Okay.
Jason Lange: It's like the funniest thing because she's like, ah, there's other guys holding that with you. You're not alone in that. We're not alone in that. And so I've seen this before, right? There was a time in my life where I transitioned careers, was not going well. Bleeding money, racking up debt, before my wife and I wanted to have kids, or before we had kids, we wanted to have kids. And it was going in the wrong direction in a lot of ways. And my tendency tends to be. I get stressed, I withdraw, I get quiet, I don't really talk. She starts to feel less connected, get, get scared. We have this deep talk. She's like, what's going on? Like, I'm scared, I'm terrified, like, or what is happening with you? And I had been working with my men, right? I had been in Group. So I had already started to process some of this, and I just looked her in the eye, took a deep breath, and I was like, I'm just at a place right now where it feels like I'm losing everywhere, and it really hurts. And I want to be winning. And my guys are helping me figure out a plan for how to get back on track. It's literally all I said. She takes a deep breath. Her whole body relaxes. She knows where I'm at now, what I'm experiencing, and she doesn't have to fix it for me. She can feel I'm working on a plan, and then I get to involve her in it. But it completely changes the energy of the nervous system. And, you know, I'll shut up here in a minute, but my. My last thing around this is I have this. One of my favorite metaphors to use is, you know, probably when you were growing up. I know when I was growing up, they had the old school Christmas lights. Yeah, right. So you put up Christmas lights. If one bulb was out, whole string wouldn't work.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: You put up your lights, turn it on. Oh, my God. The one bulb up there, that's dead. Now the whole string's dead. That's a single series circuit. That's how men in isolation end up living their life. I've got one point of connection, and that's it. That's as big as my system is. So that point of connection is stressed or not going well. Guess what? My whole system is not going well. Parallel circuit, new, newer lights. Right? One bulb goes out, doesn't matter. Whole string. Still, there's different paths of connection, right? Man being in a men's group, expanding the type of connection he has in his world. Okay. I got my primary connection here, but then I got all of these other connections around me. So if this one isn't going well, it's okay. Because that one is one out of 12, right? Percentage wise, it's a smaller part of my system. I got places to go. Oh, my God. I'm in a huge fight with my wife right now. Rather than having to numb out with that and be alone and, you know, maybe drink it or whatever a man might do. I go to my group, and those guys love me up. Tell me, hey, man, I know you guys are going to figure this out. You might want to do this. I see how hard you're trying. I get connected. I feel. Oh, my God. Yeah. I got love in my life. I got connection in my life. Makes it easier to go deal with my relationship. So the more connected we get, the more. Here's the key, the more resilient we get as men.
Host (Father Talks): Okay, so why do you think, though, you know, these guys in these men's groups, why is it so hard for us to open up even to other men? Because genuinely, we know that other men are going through the same thing, Jason. So why are we having such a difficult time just opening up and telling somebody else who, again, we know is likely in the same boat as usual? Why so hard to even open up to other men?
Jason Lange: Yeah, it's that man box culture, Right. And the very real truth in reality, that for a lot of men, sometimes the most pain they experience is actually at the hands of other men. Right? Particularly in that kind of early childhood bullying, being made fun of, being ostracized. If we do bring. If we're a little different or we share, we cry or something.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: A lot of guys have that and they internalize that. Then it's, oh, my God, I can't give anyone any ammo here. So I'm going to keep it all locked down. Right. I don't want to get shamed or made fun of by other guys. So we're fighting against that, which is a big part of the man buck culture. And then the other part is just lack of training. That's it.
Host (Father Talks): Okay.
Jason Lange: Guys just aren't trained. We're not actually taught how to do this. And the great thing about a men's group is you're given the structure, the tools, and the agreements that make it easier to step into that space, right? So we have agreements around confidentiality and safety and owning our experience and these different things that actually create the conditions to make it much easier to talk about what's inside and know that we're not going to get ostracized because of that. And then the actual structures of the group, they really facilitate that, because here's the quickest pathway I've seen for guys to learn. That very thing, you're saying, is when they experience another man doing it, all, right? Oh, man, I wasn't. I wasn't going to talk about that. But then so. And so I saw he opened up about his marriage, and I thought, man, that that was brave. Maybe I can do that, too. And so now I'm talking about that, too, because he opened the space for me. It made me realize it was okay. This is what's so potent about a group, is how fast we see that transmission happen of, oh, other guys actually show me that there's a different way. Right? And make it okay. So many men I work with, they're just waiting for permission and to know it's safe to talk about their inner world.
Host (Father Talks): It's kind of like being the. Being in class, you know? Yeah. One person, they need. You need one person to raise their hand to ask questions because nobody else in the class wants to be the person that raised their hand. Like, oh, no, I'm going to feel stupid. I don't want to ask. Because, you know, everybody else probably knows. And 90% of the time, nobody else knows either. They just need somebody else to answer.
Jason Lange: Totally. And then here's where it gets super powerful is this experience I see every time I lead a group starts to happen where another man brings something forward, vulnerably shares about something real going on in his life.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: And in witnessing that, we're often like, wow, man, thank you for bringing that forward. That was, like, so courageous. Like, you're incredible. Right. It actually, that's the experience men tend to have in this.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: And then it's the Matrix moment, I kind of call it, where, like, guys are like, what? Or I'm like. And you realize that every time you share like that.
Host (Father Talks): Yeah.
Jason Lange: That's how other men experience your share. And they're like, what? No, no. My feelings are a burden. My grief is too much for guys. I don't want to. No, no, no, no. It actually opens us up and inspires each other. So a type of leadership that starts to happen in these groups is go first. Because your willingness to go first will create the space that often allows another man to go. So you're actually serving him. You're taking care of your brother. You're inspiring him. So every time you come forward, you make it easier for another man to come forward. And that completely changes how guys start to relate here.
Host (Father Talks): Of.
Jason Lange: Wait. It's not me being selfish. No. Obviously you get your needs met, but you're actually inspiring other guys who you don't know. Your willingness to talk about that hard thing may literally save his life.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: This has happened before. I didn't think I could ever talk about that. And I was. Man, when you talked about that, that gave me the courage that, you know, when I was young, my dad. Da, da, da. And suddenly this thing he's been holding his whole life comes out, and he's not holding it alone inside anymore.
Host (Father Talks): Right?
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Father Talks): I can tell you that once you finally get something off your chest, you know, like, it is a tremendous weight. Like, you can just. You can just breathe, you know? And I'm like, yeah, I'm there. There have been a few times, and again, I'm still a work in progress, you know, learning to express how I feel about things but not. Not be angry. Yeah, it's a lot of times, you know, there'll be something I'd be genuinely passionate about, and I'm trying to express that, but it comes out as. As me being mad, you know, so learning. Learning all these things now, you know, is like, where was this years ago?
Jason Lange: Yeah, right, Totally. It wasn't around. That's part of what the challenge has been for so many men is that the culture didn't really give us permission or teach us how to do these things. And thankfully, it's starting to change. And honestly, it couldn't change faster because men have been in so much pain and so lonely and so disconnected and oftentimes so depressed or so addicted. In the pathway out is these kinds of connections that we're talking about. And like you said, I mean, it's a beautiful phrase. Right. Get something off your chest. When we get connected in these ways, it's not like a theoretical mental thing. It's like, oh, my God, I can actually breathe more deeply. There's more space in my body. Right.
Host (Father Talks): Which is crazy even watching you do that, you know, I'm like, I know that feeling. I know that. Right. Of just something finally being lifted off me where, you know what? I can just finally just relax, you know? And I want that very same feeling for more men, you know? And again, like I said, I am. I am still a work in progress, you know, And I've experienced that a few times. So I would like to see the man who has never experienced having a little bit of, you know, something pulled off of him, you know, experience the same feeling, you know, that same, you know, like, hey, there are people in my corner. You know, this. I'm glad I talked about this, because I was in a really bad place before, and now I feel so much better about the situation, you know, and, wow, I'm ready to go about the rest of my day. I'm gonna have a better.
Jason Lange: That's right, Exactly.
Host (Father Talks): You know, I'm gonna have a better week because of this, you know?
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Father Talks): So doing, you know, doing this kind of stuff, you know, doing this work. How do you see it Change. Change men, you know, do you. Is it. Is it a. A fast turnaround? Is it something that you know, or is it specific for each man, you know?
Jason Lange: Sure. Yeah. It tends to be faster than guys realize.
Host (Father Talks): Okay.
Jason Lange: I mean, I'm talking, you know, Within a couple weeks or months, you can be feeling very different in your body, depending on how deep of a connection you build to guys. In that.
Host (Father Talks): Okay.
Jason Lange: I mean, the. The things I see the most are much less rumination in men. So men not getting stuck in these anxious thought loops or overthinking, but actually becoming more present. I see guys come more alive, like I said, as they get support and are able to process things, literally. Eyes get brighter, faces relax, voice deepens, breath gets bigger. There's more life force in their system. And in a big way, it makes men more available for their lives, more available to actually be present in the things they want to be present in, which is often, you know, I really want to be present with my kids. I don't want to be thinking about work or stressing all the time or sucked into my phone. I want to be here with my kids. And so what I see men's groups do is it actually allows men to be more present in their relationships, and they get better and more connected and deeper.
Host (Father Talks): And.
Jason Lange: And it often blows guys away. They're like, what? I was spending time with men in this way, making my relationship to my son or my daughter, my wife, better. But it does, right, because we get more centered. We get more grounded in ourselves. We get more connected. When we're more connected to ourselves, guess what? Much easier to feel more connected to other people. So these kinds of changes can be very meaningful. And yeah, they don't happen necessarily overnight, but it's also the fun part of a group is it starts to anchor in. It doesn't have to happen overnight. Right. We're on this growth path together, and we're all a work in progress. Everybody's working on something. And sometimes just being in that container, it's just like, oh, I thought I was the only one that was messed up. No. Turns out we all got something, and we can laugh about it, and it starts to actually be a source of energy of, yeah, these are the things I'm working on in my life. What are you working on in your life? And it becomes just more of a lifestyle that creates so much more ease for men. You know, one of the. Another metaphor I often use for a good group is having these kinds of male connections in our lives. They're like shock absorbers for life. So the terrain, life, it's still gonna keep coming at you with bumpy stuff. Stress is gonna hit you.
Host (Father Talks): Right?
Jason Lange: Right. But. But suddenly you've got a system to help you absorb the shock, to deal with it, to not break down. To not get tanked by it so you can keep moving forward in your life. And so that can happen in, honestly, just a couple of weeks. Once guys get connected in the right container, they're like, whoa, this is amazing.
Host (Father Talks): I love that. You know, and like I said, the entire purpose of this for me is really to get the word out to other guys. Hey, there. There are resources out there for us. There are reports out there for you. Hey, I've had this person on my show. I think they would be a really good fit for you and what you're dealing with, you know? So tell me. Tell me a hard truth, okay? Hard truth about men today that most people aren't even really ready to hear.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm gonna speak to men around this one, and it's straight to the men who are maybe still a little hooked on the Now I'm gonna figure it all out. And I do work with these guys, right? Where it's not just I don't have any connection. It's actually a point of pride that I don't need anybody, right? I don't need anybody. I figure it out, right? That's how I live my life. The hard truth for a lot of men is I don't care how tough you think you are, how good a shape you're in, how well you take care of yourself, how resilient you are, there will be a moment in every man's life where his body will fail him. That could be old age, that could be sickness, that could be accident. And in that moment, you are going to fall back to, who do I have around me? Right? What connection, community do I have? And for a lot of guys, they wait until the emergency to start building that, and it makes it 10 times harder. And one of the things you can start to do right now is building those investment, building those relationships and investing in other people. So when you have that challenge, that hard time, you got people to call on who are going to show up and who are going to support you when you cannot support yourself.
Host (Father Talks): Yeah. See, and again, for me, I'm thinking about, who can I call, you know, right now? If I had a serious emergency, who can I call? And not even say a serious emergency. Let's just say I'm, you know, dealing with some personal issues, and I just need to talk. I can tell you right now, I've got, like, two people, and one of them is my wife.
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host (Father Talks): You know.
Jason Lange: Yeah, there you go. So, like dad said, and it's not that there's anything wrong with those two People. But what happens if those two people aren't available to you?
Host (Father Talks): Right, right.
Jason Lange: You can see how challenging it can get pretty fast. And so we want to have, you know, and when I say this, it's not like we have to go out and have, you know, a hundred best male friends. Right. A good group can be six guys. Completely change our life. Having that kind of connection and availability, even just going deeper with a couple of men in our lives as is, even if it's not a formal group. But just, yeah, you know, I've always kind of had this connection with, you know, Joe at work, but we've just never quite take the time, say, hey, man, I want to go out to lunch, and I want to get to know you. What's going on in your life, man? That can start to change relationships so fast. When guys come into some of my programs, I hear this all the time. It's like, man, I saw my buddy last. Last night, and we've known each other for 20 years, and we went deeper in one night than we've gone 20 years.
Host (Father Talks): Wow.
Jason Lange: It's like the friendships I already have got so much better learning to connect in these ways.
Host (Father Talks): Okay, so I'll leave. We'll. We'll close with this, we think. Well, first off, before I ask you the last question, anything you want to share, you know, with the group, with the community, you know, something near and dear to your heart that, hey, you want to invite people to.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say just. You don't have to do it alone.
Host (Father Talks): Okay.
Jason Lange: Trust me. Getting support and connection, asking for help, getting community. It's not that it always makes life easier. Like I said, we're going to get hit. Life comes at us, you know, unpredictable things, but it does make it a lot better.
Host (Father Talks): Right?
Jason Lange: We can. We can navigate the bumps much, much easier. So don't wait. You know, if you're a guy listening and you're like, yeah, man, this feels a little too close to home. It's. It's time you can. You can really get yourself resourced in a way that you might be shocked by.
Host (Father Talks): Yeah, right?
Jason Lange: It's like, whoa, I didn't even know how much I was missing out on until I got some of this connection.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: So I would say, you know, wherever that leads you, if you need help, reach out to me. I'm sure you got some resources, but, like, be proactive. Don't wait for the emergency.
Host (Father Talks): Okay, so final question for the man who just refuses the change. Who pays the price for that?
Jason Lange: Yeah. Oftentimes the people around Him.
Host (Father Talks): Okay. Right.
Jason Lange: The. The people that never really got to know him in his heart. Right. You know what. What? One of the guys I work with that I lead some of my groups with, you know, he says it pretty blunt. He's like, man, when we pass, when we go, you don't get to take any of it with you.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: All you get, all that's left is the love. So focus on the relationships now, you know, and everybody, every time they do one of those end of life, kind of terminally ill people who are like, oh, my God, it's coming. It's never. I wish I had worked more. I wish I had, you know, had a six pack. Like, it's not that stuff. It's. Man, I wish I had spent more time with the people that love me and that I love.
Host (Father Talks): Right.
Jason Lange: And that you. You'll feel that at the end, you know, Huge part of. Huge part of the work I do with men, a lot of a large part of men's work in general is this idea of how do I have to live now so that in my last breath, I feel relaxed, not contracted.
Host (Father Talks): Ouch. Okay, that. That's beautiful. I'm gonna leave it right there because there's no top in that, ladies and gentlemen. All right, Jason, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate you. We are definitely have to stay in touch. I will. I'm going to reach out to you so I can get some of your info just so we can. So I can share it, you know, because I want as many resources out there as we can get, so.
Jason Lange: Fantastic.
Host (Father Talks): Outstanding, sir. Thank you very much for coming on the show. It's been a pleasure.
Jason Lange: Yeah, thanks for having me and for creating this space for men.
Host (Father Talks): Outstanding. Thank you for being a part of it. Have a good one.
