Ep.32 From Lone Wolf to Brotherhood Jason Lange on Men’s Work | Midlife Mavericks Podcast

Host: Welcome back to the Midlife Maverick Podcast. In today's society, men are struggling with outdated scripts of what it means to be a man. In this episode, we're talking about a different path. I'm joined by Jason Lange, men's embodiment coach, facilitator, and Certified no More Mr. Nice Guy Coach to explore men's groups, shadow work, and how presence changes everything. We dig into Jason's personal story, from loneliness and shame to brotherhood and leadership. And we unpack practical tools you can use today to feel more grounded, connected, and in control of your life. I really enjoyed this time with Jason. He's an incredible man who has an incredible presence, and his story is something that I feel we all need to hear more of. Before we dive in. I want to invite you to join the free Midlife Mavericks school community, a space for men in midlife to connect, share wins, and get support. You'll find the link in the show notes. Jason, welcome to the Midlife Mavericks Podcast.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm so pumped to be here. Thank you for having me, mate.

Host: I'm looking forward to this conversation. It's something that I've been thinking about for a while, and we're going to dive deep and talk about men's groups today, and I'm thinking about starting one of these myself. So connecting with someone that's had some experience in this space and talking to you about your journey will hopefully give me some insight. But also I feel that it'll give a lot of my listeners a really good insight into men's groups. But before we dive into that, a couple of questions I always like to start the podcast with.

Jason Lange: Sure.

Host: Number one, if you and I were to be jumping on an airplane, where would that airplane be going? Do you have a favorite holiday destination or a bucket list item that you would love to tick off?

Jason Lange: I have really been craving going to Japan. Never been there and had some friends go last fall. And I'm like, I would dig that. So that's very high on my list. Coming up sometime in the next couple years.

Host: Beautiful. Mike, what is it about Japan that sparks your. Sparks your attention?

Jason Lange: You know, I just hear there's very kind people, and I'm from the States here and we have a lot of natural beauty, but one thing our culture doesn't really value, let's just say, is beauty. And so one thing I see in just from afar in Japanese culture is an appreciation for making things beautiful just for the sake of them being beautiful, because it's worth it. And the way they tend to, you know, Work intention into beauty in terms of gardening and how they design their villages and homes. It just. It just feels like a very cool interweaving versus. You know, I grew up in strip malls and suburbia and like, everything is just functionally ugly and there's no effort to make it beautiful.

Host: Wow, that's a. That's an awesome insight, mate. I. I've been to Japan a few times, mainly for the snow, but I've also checked out Tokyo and I've also checked out other parts as well. And it is a beautiful culture and beautiful people, like you say, and it is an incredible place in terms of, you know, their little villages and their little communities and all the stuff that goes on. So, yeah, I can definitely come to Japan with you again. I'll be happy to do that. Great. So if we're sitting on this airplane and we've sparked up a conversation and I'm asking you, you know, what's your mission in life right now? What would you say?

Jason Lange: Yeah, very simple, very in line with our talk today. Every man should be in a men's group. So my mission in life is just to get every man into a men's group because of the support and brotherhood and opportunities they provide. And frankly, in a world that's kind of gone mad, I think it's one of the highest places of leverage in that kind of. What I've seen played out in the work I do and frankly, in my own journey is healthy men create healthy relationships which then many of whom go on to create healthy families which create healthy kids. And a lot of guys I work with and a lot of my life turns out we end up spending decades trying to unwind some of the wounding we experience in maybe the first five years of our lives. And so this thing of shit, what if not every man or person had to spend all that time on that wounding? What would it be like to just come into life ready to rock and grow from there?

Host: So.

Jason Lange: So that's a big part of my mission and I'm quite passionate about it.

Host: I can tell by the way you talk, mate. And it's a. It's a beautiful mission to have. And I agree with you on a lot of what you're sort of saying there. I'm curious. You know, you mentioned the journey there and you me mentioned probably a little bit of struggle. I think a lot of men keep pushing and striving and working hard, and they don't take action until something breaks, until their health collapses, until their relationships collapse, until something starts to go wrong. And it's reactive instead of proactive. So I'd like to rewind a little bit to hear more about your story. Where did, where did it start for you before all this men's work? What was going on? Totally.

Jason Lange: Well, you know, like, I think that's a very astute observation and oftentimes it does require some kind of threshold to pain for people to want to make a change. And yeah, my story is right. We were talking a little bit before we hopped on here. I grew up outside of Chicago in the US and kind of the American suburban dream. I was lower middle class, I grew up in the 80s, basically had all my security needs met on like a functional level. But my family had no capacity for interiority, just no emotional skill, communication. And as I learned as I really got older, like no physical connection, just touch was not part of my household. And you know, as is the story, I think for a lot of people, when that's your just what you were raised in, you don't know any different. And then, you know, I became a teenager, I kind of started getting out of the house, spending time around other families and realizing, oh, hey, there's something different here. And even seeing how I showed up in the world started to feel different. And it really came to a head right when I hit puberty and I'm heterosexual. So in my case I was interested in girls and my whole body get very tense. I would get clammy, I'd get sweaty, I'd get really uncomfortable and my mind would go into just hyper rumination. And when women got close to me, I would actually get like anxious in my body. And I just had no idea how to connect with women, even though I really wanted to. So that happened. And then I did get lucky in that I kind of met some nerds in high school, some guys I really got along with, one of my first brotherhoods in a sense. But even with them, I noticed they would kind of wrestle, horseplay, be physical with each other and it just was not in my default way of being at all. And as I progressed, as I got older, the pain of not being in relationship became more and more and more. And for me, I self regulated primarily through food, video games and porn and masturbation and kind of got me through very lonely times in my life life. And I saw my friends going on having relationships, kind of growing up, having the experiences I was wanting to have and I just didn't get it. I just, I was, I had this sense, okay, something is different. I'm in a lot of pain and I need help. And that kind of kicked off my journey of there's gotta be a better way to be in my body, in the world than this. And I had no idea what I was doing. So initially, I think, like a lot of men, actually, because, you know, this was even before podcasts, I got into philosophy, and I was just trying to read, you know, read and understand the mind and the body. And that got me so far. But one of the things it did is it got me to move across the country and kind of get into a little scene. And it was there that I discovered men's work, men's groups, and somatic therapy, which is also equally part of my journey. And in my mid-20s, started to finally have some breakthroughs, unwinding and realizing what. What, in a lot of ways, real neglect I experienced as a kid, how that impacted my nervous system and what the legacy of that was. As I moved through the world and as I got into the root of that and did some really deep somatic and shadow work, which I love leading now for guys, it cracked some things open in me that I was like, okay, what was that? I. You know, I thought I knew what was going on here, but what, you know, what just happened? And then I kind of just fell in love and got into, you know, simultaneously got into a men's group, and then the rest is kind of just history.

Host: Awesome, man. Thank you for being honest and also being a little bit vulnerable there. I think a lot of guys might be reluctant to sort of be able to stand up and say, you know, some of the stuff that you've just said, but being able to, you know, reflect on that, see the point in your life where maybe you were feeling a bit stuck, and to see the changes that you made, that takes courage and bravery, buddy. So thank you very much for sort of sharing that. I think a lot of young men these days could probably relate strongly, and even, you know, men in their midlife these days could relate strongly to maybe that childhood you had and the loneliness that you felt.

Jason Lange: What.

Host: What was the turning point? Was there something that sparked this hunger to. To look into philosophy or to, I don't know, move and start exploring the world a bit more to make connections. Like, was there a point in life where you can just go that? Was it? Or was it just.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, it was a combination of just not feeling good. I mean, like a kind of depression that followed me day to day, and as I got older, a deepening and deepening shame, which I work with a Lot of men around these days that I was a virgin, right? I was a virgin until my till I was 26. And even though I had male friends, I didn't tell them about it. I carried it in such deep shame, like there was something really wrong with me and that, you know, no one would understand and that just, you know, kind of got to a place where I was like, okay, this is fucking ridiculous. You know, in one sense, it's like, why is this so hard for me? And I really want to find out, like, what that is in my nervous system and in my body. And as I started doing, you know, some men's work and somatic therapy, things started to become clear in terms of mapping out moments in my life. But it was really that it was honestly a desperation to feel some physical and emotional connection with a woman, in my case. And frankly, it's one of the reasons. It's one of the main types of work I do with men around relationships now. Because, to be totally frank, it's one of the only things I have found that'll get a man's ass off the couch when he can't get the relationships he wants or he's in the one he wants and it's about to go away because he can't keep it alive and he doesn't understand. And the truth is, as men particularly, we are woefully underprepared for what's required in a modern relationship now. And we are just not given the training as boys and teenagers and frankly into men of what it takes to be emotionally available and grounded and present and how to communicate and all these things. I had to eventually kind of stumble through very painful lessons of learning and then thankfully get a lot of guidance from wiser men than I along the way.

Host: Yeah, wicked. A couple of questions pop to mind, and I'm going to give you both of these and you can choose how you want to answer these two questions. One is off the back of what you've just sort of said that young boys aren't given these skills. So my question around is that was, why are we not given those skills and what's missing? And the other part is, you know, we've mentioned men's work, so I'd like to better zoom out a little bit and sort of query or, what is men's work?

Jason Lange: Sure, yeah. I'll do the first one as a bit of context, then we can kind of flow into the second one. And so, you know, one of the challenges these days is that there is difference between male and female bodies, right. Just hormonally how we move doesn't mean there's not room for a whole range of people and expressions in between. But, you know, some of this goes into the work of Robert Bly, who wrote Iron John, which was kind of one of the first big mythopoetic men's workbooks in the 90s, right. And one thing he tracked was just for some historical context, right? Back in the day, what would happen is as young boys, we would often spend a lot of time from like, you know, 0 to 8 or 9 with the, with the women of the village, the aunties. We would just kind of be raised, it was all together. And in most indigenous cultures and tribal cultures there, there's plenty of record for. And then at some point, just a little bit before puberty, the boys would be taken away by the men and they would be initiated into so called manhood. And, you know, there's all ways you can do that in different cultures and that can mean different things. But that was where boys started spending time around men and learning how they could be of service in their community, in their tribe, in their family, et cetera. Now one of the huge shifts that happened was the Industrial Revolution hit, right? And so what happened was fathers who used to work locally in the trade, right, of whatever kind or whatever it is, started going off to factories and they'd be gone all day, and so dad's gone all day. And then the modern school system is kind of born and everybody's just channeled into schools and it's changing, thankfully. But a lot of teachers are women, right? Because it takes a lot of relational capacity. If you've ever been in a room with 30 little kids, it is not easy, right? You gotta have a lot of space and be very attuned. And we can certainly learn to do that as men. But you know, historically women have gravitated to that a little bit more. But so this thing started to happen where boys weren't spending time with men anymore, they were being more and more raised by women. And just the kind of industrial nature of our schooling system, which frankly, there's plenty of research, was to prepare people to get factory jobs, sit still, do this thing, keep focused. And even that phrase, sit still, sit in class, sit still. There's all the research in the world right now that that is actually incredibly challenging for a young male body. Boys are meant to move and learn and break things and be kinesthetic, right? I saw one research thing basically that said all the gaps between kind of boys and girls right now can basically be erased by two things. One, hold boys back a year because we mature emotionally slower than women, and start the day with two hours of vigorous activity, two hours of vigorous physical activity, and boys drop right in. And we can sit and we can be focused, but our whole school system, particularly these days, is just not set up for that. And so there's this sit still thing. And if you don't, you know, you have ADHD or they give you all these things. But that very early lesson of sit still, it starts. It's another manifestation of something many boys and men are kind of exposed to throughout their lives, which is this. That thing that's happening in your body. Ignore it and override it with your head. So that urge to move, that's bad. Override it with your head. You know, again, it's changing. And this doesn't just happen to boys, but, you know, it still happens. A phrase I still hear in the world. Stop crying. You're fine. Get up. It's okay. You're tough, right? You can just feel it. And again, there's tons of research studies, whether it's cultural. Who cares where it comes from? Boys and girls are raised differently. Be tough. What's happening in your body. Ignore it and override it. So emotionally, we start to get that lesson. Physically, we get that lesson around movement. Then we hit adolescence, puberty is happening, and we start doing that to each other very quickly. Boys, bodies are adjusting, you know, developing at different speeds. So there's this kind of hold it all in. Don't let myself be noticed. Don't do anything that would give anyone any ammo to bully me. So hold it inside and be tough, right? Don't show weakness. Don't show any vulnerability. Whatever's going on inside you, override it. Then we get launched into the world, into some careers, and, you know, what are men generally rewarded for or considered successful?

Host: Wow.

Jason Lange: He works 80 hours a week. That guy is just crushing it. And he just works. None of that. Stop. How do we do that? Ignore what's happening in our body and override it with our heads, Right? A lot of the military is the same way. And again, you know, there's both genders now there. But.

Host: The.

Jason Lange: The gestalt of this is, you know, what this guy Tony Porter kind of popularized, is something called the man box. And essentially, it's this idea that boys and men are expected to live within the confines of a certain box. And there's literally a checklist. If you don't check the boxes, you're not considered a man. And one of the biggest ones, the most primary ones, is masculinity means invulnerability. That's what it means to be a man. He's invulnerable, he's tough as nails, doesn't need help, never stops, et cetera, et cetera. And one last piece on this. And then they did again, they did this incredible research study where they interviewed both men and women. That's what's interesting here, around two things. What marks the transition from a girl into a woman? And what marks the transition from a boy into a man? With girls, again, I'm not saying this is good, but both men and women tended to prescribe to ascribe that transition to physiology. Oh, her body has changed. She has a cycle, right? She's a woman now. She can have children with boys. Guess what? Not based on physical development. It's based on cultural factors. How responsible is he? How is he showing up in his family, in his community, in his work? Is he doing anything with his life? Right. It's a different pressure. And you add all this together and. And boys are launched into the world as men without any training around something really critical. What's happening in my body? How can I share that? And what do I do about it? AKA our emotions, right? And in the work I do, all emotions start as sensations in our physical body. And so if we're cut off from our body, we. We're cut off from our emotions and we don't know how to talk about them. We don't know how to name them. Man, when I was in my 20s, my range was good, bad and fine. Like that was what I could describe. I'm good, I'm fine. Yeah, no, no, I'm kind of bad today. Like that, that was it. I couldn't name what actually I was feeling in my body for a long time. And the challenge with that then is when we do particularly feel dysregulated emotionally or physically, when we're not feeling good in our bodies and we don't know what it is, let alone how to share it or what to do about it. What do most men do to change their state like I did? We turn to something on the outside to make us feel different on the inside, or weed, alcohol, video games, food, overworking tv, you name it. And it's just getting worse, you know, every year. So in a large part, you know, we're launched into this modern world and. And then we're thrust into this hyper, at least, you know, I think you Guys got a little bit of it down there, but, man, here in the States, hyper masculine, individualized culture, like, it's all about the individual. Oh, I don't need anybody. The. The Marlboro man, the romantic cowboys, he's just out doing his own thing. Is the dream we're sold here. And it's frankly, bullshit. And it kills men. It actually kills men. There's just more and more research about what that way of living does, but we think it's awesome. And so there's a crisis, right, you know, like you're pointing to right now, that there's a lot of boys, there's a lot of young men, there's a lot of older men who are not doing well. And that's, I think, where men's work comes in, which is. Okay. We need to learn to initiate each other and take each other on a journey of what does it mean in a healthy way, to take full responsibility for your pain and your life and your emotions so you can show up and create the life you want. And turns out that takes training. We actually have to build certain skills and capacities and, frankly, relationships, which is where men's groups really come in.

Host: Yeah. Awesome. There was so much you just said there that I resonate with so much. And I think a lot of guys will, from stoic masculinity and the pressures put on us from a young age not to cry, to be tough, to keep pushing through, to keep grinding. We like to. We refer to that at Midlife Mavericks as the warrior archetype. You know, the warrior is. This is the soul battle. And he wants to be in every fight and he wants to do everything, but at some point, that's just going to burn him out. And he doesn't care about his relationships. He's just so focused on what can I get and how can I get more? Um, and it might serve us for a short period of our life, but like you say, as we start to get older, the warrior isn't here to serve us forever. And if we don't have those relationships and we don't have that connection, and I think like you said, if we don't have that emotional intelligence, well, then we start to struggle in terms of fulfillment, in terms of disconnect from our bodies, from our relationships, from our health, from so many different things. And I think you covered that really well. It was really sort of insight. Insightful. The emotional thing, I think, you know, guys are great in our head. We're great thinkers, and I think we're great with our hands we're great doers. We want to fix everything. And I think that's what we go to. We go to the mind or we go to the physical. But how do we get into. I'm curious, like, how do we tap into that emotional side? Because I'm fine, I'm great. I'm tired, I'm. I'm hungry, you know, that's the emotions we know. What have you found? Like, when you started doing this work, how did you get deeper into recognizing those emotions and being able to speak about those emotions?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I needed guidance. I frankly needed guidance. And it was a blend of some somatic therapists and many older, wiser men who would be sitting with me, let's say, in a circle. And as I'm speaking would, bottom line it, I think there's grief inside you. I'm feeling grief as I sit here with you. And then I'm like, what? But then it's a doorway in for me to start to mark. Oh, yeah. Actually, that's what that thing is. That's grief. And you know that for a lot of guys and gals, frankly, you know, this is one of the things that's missing in what I'm particularly passionate about, that I actually think is the most important role for parents with their children is this whole idea of co regulation, right? When we're young, we have these intense feelings in our body. We don't have the names for it, but when mom or dad gets down on their knees, looks us in the eye and says, you're really mad right now, aren't you? You're mad, you want the cookie and you can't have it. And that makes you mad, right? When. When they mirror that to us, that's how we start to learn to connect. Oh, this heat I'm feeling in my belly right now, that's anger. Now I kind of know what that is. As someone from a place of emotional neglect, I didn't get any of that. So I needed guidance, particularly from guys and groups on the outside. They were so sensitive in their bodies, they could often feel what was going on in mine before I had words for it. And they were often very correct. And so they would presence that. And it helped me start to get the programming in a sense, right, that we call this interoception, the awareness of what's happening inside of us, right? Proprioception, the awareness of how our body's moving through space. Most people know that, right? Like you hit the ball like great tarotceptions. Oh, what's. What's that? Inside me, what is my body feeling right now? And then we learn to communicate that. So it was a lot being in men's groups and frankly, being led into my emotions, which I am now super passionate about, is one of the great gifts we can give each other as men. Just to slow each other down and help each other connect to our derel direct felt body experience. Right? Just literally get connected to what you're feeling. And turns out on the other side of that, we often have all kinds of insights about what we need to do. And a lot of times we waste a tremendous amount of energy trying to avoid feeling because it's so scary. It's like a black hole. We have a sense is in there, but we don't really know. And we've been taught, you know, it's weak or whatever. And, and so for a lot of guys, how I, you know, help get them in there, frankly, you know, we like to get shit done as men. So I talk about it just from performance that, you know, you can. That, that stop crying bit we were talking about, you can imagine, right? I come up to a four year old boy who's, who's sad, he's in grief, he's crying. If I walk up to him and I'm like, stop crying. How does he do it?

Host: Just bear. Yeah. Holds it in, buries it.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Pushes it down, tightens his body, holds his breath. Literally hold, pack it in. That's how we hold emotion. Literally we will stop it from, stop it in our system. And then right if I'm like right now, right, okay. Contract all the muscles in your body, right? Just your abs, your shoulder, your biceps. You don't even have to move. Just tighten it up. And I'm like, do this for an hour. It gets pretty exhausting pretty fast. It takes a lot of metabolic resource to hold emotion inside of us. And they're right, they're getting the science behind this more and more in terms of our fascia and the waste, even literally down in the cells, hearts tighten up and blood flow goes down. It takes energy to do all that. And then we wonder, right? I think my sense is you and I might be similar age, but you know, most guys, we come into the world, we got this kind of preloaded debit card with quite a bit of chi. Right. In our 20s, we're just hitting it. Burning hard, playing hard, partying hard, working hard. For most guys, start to hit your mid-30s and there's like a ooh that took a little longer to recover from. You hit your 40s and 50s, it's like, whoa, there is not an unlimited resource here of energy anymore. I gotta like start to manage this. And for so many guys I work with, one of their biggest challenges, just having enough energy to be present in their lives and relationships, kids, work, etc. And it turns out a lot of that is often being wasted on holding emotional content in trauma inside. So when we start to learn the tools to go inside and metabolize it quite literally let these places inside of us relax. By deeply feeling, I mean, it's one of the great joys I have in doing work with men is quite literally seeing them come back alive, right? Their voices deepen, their belly softens, their faces brighten up, their eyes get wider, their face relaxes. You're like, you're alive now, man. Because all that energy that was being wasted on holding is now available for them to move forward the things they want to move forward in life. So it takes training, it takes practice, it takes mentorship. And again, I love how you can kind of swirl all three of those together into men's groups.

Host: I like what you said and I really like what you said about, you know, the kids and how we interact with our kids, what we say to our kids, how important that is. I think for a lot of parents out there, you know, we can be tired, we can be frustrated, we can be impatient, and we might be able to tell our kids to stop crying or, you know, not pay attention to their feelings. It's okay to be sad, it's okay to cry when like, and be supportive like that. So that's a big wake up call to a lot of dads out there and maybe some moms too, but they're probably way more in touch than we are. I also liked, you know, you touched, there's a lot, a lot of great stuff you touched on there. I think I always like to say, like, men often like to hide in the places where they're successful. So, you know, we go to work, we're achieving, we're ticking the boxes. So we bury ourselves in work and we do more work because it's a safe environment where we probably feel like we're achieving something. Or for me personally, it was with training. Like training is a big part of my identity. I've been a personal trainer and a coach for many years, but training was the place where I'd hide. I've got goals, I can move towards those goals. I can focus on training and dedicate hours and hours and hours to it. But what, what am I really doing There. Am I running away from the relationships in my life that aren't working? Am I not focusing in on other parts of my life, my freedom, my lifestyle? You know, things that are not going as well as what I want. So I keep putting myself in that safe environment or that environment where I'm ticking all the boxes, feeling like I'm successful, but ignoring a lot of what else is going on in my life and being able to step back from that now that I'm sort of reaching that. You know, that midlife point that you talked about, it's questioning that. It's like, why do I need to train so hard? Or why do I need to work so hard? And what am I working for? Like, what am I pushing for? If I'm pushing to be a provider and show up for my family, well, am I being present? Am I actually there for my family? Like, all these questions just start to come into my mind, and it's like reflecting on that. And again, it's that warrior energy, moving into maybe king energy, looking at life in a different way and trying to decide, you know, the path we want to take. One of the things I want to talk about is I think a lot of men are reluctant to step into men's groups where I don't know whether there's a fear there of what's going to happen. Maybe we don't want to be vulnerable. I don't know. What do you feel is holding men back from stepping into this. This environment and doing this work?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I would say different manifestations of fear. One of which is, you know, a lot of guys I work with, one of the places they were most hurt is by other men, is by the masculine. Whether it was an abusive father, bullying friends. Like a lot of guys, it's not just like a theoretical, I gotta keep my cards close to my chest. It's a real thing where if I put stuff out there, I'm gonna be attacked for it. So a number of men I work with have that or, you know, just did. Had experiences where it's hard to trust men. Right. He stole my girlfriend or he stole my woman, or, you know, took my job, went behind my back. Those are real things. So I think there's some real fear there. And then I think there's the emotional component that we're afraid of emotions. And frankly, you know, it's crazy to speak this, but there's some very real homophobia. Right. We are taught that any kind of connection with man, I mean, you can just think of the things that are said in locker rooms for most young boys, right? And that shit still said these days. And the problem with that is it robs us men of so much connection. And I. It's one of the reasons I've worked with a lot of men who then get themselves into highly dysfunctional, intimate relationships because it's the only place they're getting any kind of emotional or physical connection. And so we have that need as men, and when we're not getting it anywhere else, we'll feel desperate to get it in the avenues that are so called acceptable. So this is where guys get into, you know, pretty dysfunctional, sometimes abusive relationships versus sitting down with some guys and being forward. And, you know, it's. It's this interesting thing that I've experienced with most men that we're also afraid of feedback, right? When we're in our little own world doing our thing, we kind of have control. But when I step in and I'm like, hey, you're spending, you know, 30 hours at the gym, but how's your son? You're like, I don't have time for him. And I'm like, really? Like, are you. You really not have time with him? Or are you choosing that? You know, that starts to kick something in gear where we're kind of held accountable. And that is scary for men. But that is exactly how we grow as the masculine. We need feedback, right? Iron sharpens iron. We've all heard the phrase, and we get that in men's groups, there's. In a good men's group, there is no hiding. Men will see you and they will tell you what they see. And some guys, that's scary because it means their life's gonna have to change, frankly. But with more guys, what I find is once they get through that little bit of fear, most men I have met are deeply craving what Terry Real calls carefrontation. And what I name is the spinach in the teeth moment of. I walk up to you and I'm like, dude, got a big thing of spinach in your teeth. And you're like, oh, no. Oh, Chad, you're right. You know, there's a little bit of embarrassment. But then you're also like, thank you for telling me, because I've been walking around all day and all these other folks didn't tell me anything. Paradoxically, I now trust you more because you told me the hard thing. Not to shame me, but because you care about me and you want the best for me. And that's the space, you know, of men's groups and Some guys, you know, just to kind of tie together the emotions and fear. I think there's just an intuitive sense that if I sit down and get real with men, I'm going to have to feel more. Right. Like, I'm going to have to feel more. And that's the thing that's terrifying for us guys, if no one's ever walked us through that. And then one, one last one. This is just straight from the field, so to speak, is I don't want to be a burden. Oh. I don't want to share with you how hard things are for me, because I don't want you to feel bad hearing how tough my life is. So, guys, zip the lip and keep it inside. Thinking that's going to help you when it doesn't help anyone.

Host: Yeah, you said a lot of great stuff there. And I think a lot of men can probably relate to that. That fear of stepping into the men's group, the fear of, like, opening up and being vulnerable, putting our struggles onto other men, we can be very reluctant about because I think as men, we're not very good at maybe dealing with that. You know, we ask our mates how they are and we want them to say, fine, good, okay, whatever. We don't want them to open up and say, actually, mate, I'm having trouble with this because we're not given the language to learn how to. To deal with that. You also want to jump to fix and say, oh, mate, you should try this, or, oh, you'll be right. You know, we pat them on the back and tell them to keep going. But just being able to sit and listen and to hear what other men's struggles are. But the relationships that we can build just by hearing those conversations and knowing that we're not alone can be very insightful and can really help us, I suppose, unlock that emotion. But also, yeah, you know, see that there is probably a path forward that we might not have thought about. I'm curious. You talked a lot. We talked a lot about masculinity in terms of stoic masculinity and what. What's being put on us as a kid and how that's affecting us as we grow up. So what is healthy masculinity, do you think?

Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. I mean, at the most esoteric level. So I'm gonna go a little out there here for a moment. Right. Mass, the masculine is the part of all of us. So it doesn't matter if you're born in a male body, female body, whatever kind of body. It's the Part of us that is aware and witnesses, like in the deepest traditions, the part of us that witnesses and sees. And the feminine inside of all of us is everything else. All the feelings, all the emotions, all the thoughts, our body, anything that changes, right? So the healthy masculine essentially is. I kind of tie it to three things. It's when we're grounded and relaxed in our body. This is a big one, right? So many of us, guys, me included, walking around, so busy, so burdened, so tired. Life's so hard. I want to be winning here. I'm losing here. You don't understand. And there's like tension in us, right? There's a lot of tension in us. The healthiest masculine is actually quite grounded, quite relaxed, and often very still. It's not a lot of movement. We move with consciousness versus just for the sake of moving. So that's one component. And the second component is in the heart space, right? The kind of three body intelligences. We have the gut, the body, the heart, which is the part of us that's deeply open, attuned and relating in the moment. And this is, right? So funny, a little bit of a language tweak. If I'm like, this guy's really in touch with his emotions, right? It's like, you know, we could think of all the things we'd say about that guy. If I'm like, this guy's got really deep instincts. Oh, yeah, that's cool. Yeah, it's cool, right? Instincts are awesome. It's the same thing, right? It's the part of us that is able to receive information, and particularly information from other people. And that makes us great leaders, frankly, both. Both with the. The heart space, which again, is kind of connected to the body. It builds upon it. You know, you and your listeners probably have heard of the vagal nerve, right? It's that big bundle of nerves that goes, connects, basically connects our brain to our body. It's like the information super high, right? They've done a little research, right? Guess what? Only 20%. 20% of the bandwidth of this massive information superhighway in our bodies goes from brain to body. 80% of the information is body to brain. So if we're not in our bodies physically receiving information, which allows us to emotionally receive information from the people we're with, we're losing out on 80% of the information we need to be effective leaders and make good choices. Just very simple, very functional. But going back to healthy masculine, so we're grounded and relaxed in our bodies. We're open, connected, and attuned in our hearts and in the relational space, both to our emotions and the emotions of people around us. And then in our mind, we're able to put our attention on what we want to put it on in any given moment in service of depth. Where can I put my attention right now to create the most depth in my life, in my relationships, in my community and in my world? And we kind of swirl that all together then with this capacity to be somewhat aware of the part of us that is just aware. It's a little weird to think about, but when we do that, we are holding so called the grounded, divine, sacred, whatever you want to call it, masculine. That isn't something I think almost everyone has experienced, even if they didn't have the words for it. Right? I'm around this person and just being around them, whether it's a man or woman, right? We can both cultivate our inner masculine. Just being around them, my nervous system relaxes. I feel safer and I feel more present. And that happens when a man cultivates those three energy centers and that awareness of awareness. And this is where a lot of guys, you know, myself included, man, telling you stretch, get a little lost, is if my awareness is on my thoughts, that ain't it. Because thoughts are constantly changing. Thoughts are actually our feminine. So we think thinking is going to make us more masculine as men. But no, oftentimes it's less. Anytime we're focused on less, we're bringing in more masculine energy. How could I move across the room with as much intention as possible, A to Z, that's our masculine. It's not necessarily. And you know, I do this work because we gotta cultivate it. It's not necessarily the big loud rah, rah, rah, rah thing. It's sit down, right? Cuts right through that and you're like, oh, okay, right, yeah, okay. I'm not gonna mess with that guy. He's too relaxed, right? You talk to martial artists, they, they talk about that, right? It's one of the things you do enough training, your body relaxes as a martial artist. They teach you don't hold any tension. You don't have to in any given moment because you're wasting energy and you'll get tired faster. So can you come in relaxed and have your attention where you want it to be? So I, you know, there's more, but I kind of swirl that all together and, and that blows up, you know, a lot of some of the misconceptions I often hear about what it is. And you know, last Thing, I'll say. And it's, you know, it's a bit heated, you know, particularly here in the States. Maybe down there, too. I don't believe in the toxic masculine. Like, I don't believe in toxic feminine or toxic masculine, because toxic means without any redeeming quality, there's no hope. And instead, I think what we're dealing with, the ramifications of in culture, is disconnected and pathological masculine. And where that mostly shows up and where men do become the most dangerous, in my opinion, and there's plenty of evidence in history, is what happens when we're disconnected from our hearts, when we're no longer in touch with impact on the environment or people. That's when we can do things that are pretty awful, frankly. But when the heart's there, fuck. We want more masculine energy in the world right now.

Host: I like what you said. It's like leading with different energy and it's leading with intention. So it's like turning up as the man you truly want to be. You're not living by someone else's script. You're not doing what you've been told to do. It's connecting with, well, hey, what is really important to me. He talks about what matters. And we know that looking inside and figuring out what it is we want and trying to silence that bloody inner critic, mate, we're all stuck in our head. We're all saying we should do more. We should be more. I wasn't good enough. That's going on. You talked about connecting with the heart and you talked about, like, being in your body. So I'm curious what that means to you and how do you go about being in your body?

Jason Lange: More practice. So a large part of what I support men around is embodiment practice. So literally doing the practices to get more connected to my body. And there's countless ways you can do that in, like, a lot of practices. Oddly enough, the same ones that can help you eject from your body can also be used to get you in your body. It's just how you approach it. Right? Right. I know a lot of distance runners. It's like, yeah, what are you running away from? And, like, pretty clear the level you're hitting your body. There. There's something there, but there's an. There's another way to run, get intimately connected to your body, which for a lot of us men does tend to involve uncomfortable, vigorous physical practice where we have to learn in the midst of intensity how to stay connected and actually feel so we don't overdo it. And how to control where we want to put our awareness. So, you know, it can be anything. It can be weightlifting, it can be yoga, it can be kundalini, it can be qigong, it can be going for a great hike to actually get you connected to what am I feeling? How am I breathing? Right. You can. You can become more embodied as a man instantaneously. You don't have to go off and get any training. It's to become aware of your breath moment to moment, all day long. That's it. Who in any relationship, whoever's breathing the most deeply is holding the masculine pole. That's it. That's the depth. And so much men's work, embodiment work is, is. Is focused around the breath. I'm learning to actually work with our breath. I breathe deeper, which downshifts my system, relaxes me, softens me. I'm not wasting energy. My mind can become more focused. So there's that kind of at the physical level. And then, like I said, there's getting into relationship where we have to learn to feel more and where we are felt more. And, you know, contrary to a lot of belief, men have very deep intuitions and emotional attunement. We're told we don't and we're dumb as bricks. No, it's actually we're just not trained. But very quickly we can learn that, oh, what I'm feeling in my body is often related to what I'm feeling in the person I'm with's body. And when I'm feeling it in my body, sometimes that's a cue that someone is feeling it in their body. That becomes one of the ways we can lead is checking in with what we're feeling and. And feeling into other others, essentially. And it's one of the great capacities, you know, we learned to. I train a lot of men on is as we get into our bodies, as we get more emotionally attuned to our hearts, we can be sitting there present with our partner, and we can feel what she's feeling. Yeah, I get a sense. Seems like really stressed out right now. I'm wondering if you're really worried about the thing tomorrow. Right. And they're like, oh. And I burst into tears just knowing that we felt and saw them. Right. It's one of the great gifts we can bring into any relationship. So, yeah, I kind of rambled there. But training, it takes training. There's physical practices we can do, there's emotional practices we can do. In the nature of embodiment practices is got bad News for you guys, there is no hack. You just have to do it. Even if you did it last week, you got to do it again. Get back into your body, get connected to your breath and get present.

Host: What comes up for me, when you said that was just presence, when you just finished down that word, presence, but that was what I was thinking. It's like we're so busy all the time and we're always trying to be so productive that we can be training and then trying to absorb a podcast at the same time. And it's like my mind's somewhere and my body's somewhere else. And it's like, when am I in the same place at the same time? When am I actually mind and body present in the same space? So whether that's through breathing, whether that's through qigong, whether that's through training, there's moments in my training where I'm just 100% present. And I found that a lot with skill development, like when you're learning to juggle, or you're learning the handstand, or you're learning to do something that's new and challenging, you've got to be present. You can't have your mind racing around doing other things. So maybe that challenge of doing something new, getting out of the comfort zone, where we have to really sort of think about it, could be a great way to be more in our bodies than in our heads.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: So, yeah, I really like what you said there, and I like that you finished on presence, because that's what was in my mind. And consistency, like, you know, we. We talk about the best way to get results in the gym is it's not about how much weight you lift, it's not about how many reps you do, it's not about the intensity, it's just about consistency. Showing up consistently is going to be the best thing to get results. So being in your body, you've got to have that practice as well. I liked how you started to talk about relationships, because that's something I wanted to tap into too, because I think. And I probably experienced it too, sometimes. It's, you know, our relationships as we. As we get older, you know, through school, we're connected to our mates. Maybe we're connected through sport. You have a good. We have a good group of mateship. But then, you know, when we go to work, we may be just hanging out with our work colleagues or the people around us. We maybe don't make too much time for our mates. We start to lose connection. All these things Start to disappear. And then we get to this point in life, we realize, shit, I really don't have any close mates anymore. So there's that part of the relationship we start to drop off with. And then the other thing is, like, I suppose, you know, talk about our intimate relationships with our partner, and it's like how we're showing up in that relationship, how we can be more present and aware of our partners and create deeper relationships. So I guess my question is about, like, you know, men, as we age, like, what is it that we. We need to do to be able to maintain those deeper relationships, do you think?

Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, I'll. I'll repeat ad nauseam here. Join a men's group. And it is. It is a real challenge, right? Particularly when you get into busy work, if you start a family, if you got a spouse, these are the first things that often go. And. And then on top of that, this is where some of that kind of man box box culture comes in. In that, right? I work with guys all the time. It's like, yeah, I just spent the weekend with my mates, but none of them know my wife's about to leave me. Because we just. We don't talk about that kind of stuff, right? I don't know how to talk about that kind of stuff. And so I might be around other men, but still feeling incredibly lonely. This is the thing. Loneliness can happen whether you're actually around people or not. And part of what that comes from is we're not taught how to connect, get present with each other and go under the surface and be ding, ding, ding, vulnerable. Because we're taught men aren't vulnerable, they're invulnerable, right? But the paradox is the very things that actually often create the most connection are the most vulnerable ones, right? When I get guys coming into group and they see another man bring forward something, they're feeling challenged in some kind of shame they're experiencing, and they're like, whoa, I thought I was totally alone and I was the only one. And now I feel so connected to you that you were so brave to share that. And it relaxes something in me because it makes me think, oh, maybe I'm not messed up and broken and dysfunctional. And it actually creates connection when we do that. And again, we're just not taught to do that as men. Most guys, by default, we are taught to relate via triangulation, which just means me and you have our attention on some third thing. And our connection comes from having the shared attention on the sports game. On the car repair, on the politics, on, you name it, whatever that. Literally, you see it in sports bars, right? Nobody's looking at each other, right? We're all looking somewhere else. That's kind of side by side default masculine culture. And there's a time and place for that. I'm not here to, like, rag on that. But when that's the only thing, that's what can cause this desperate loneliness inside of men of like, I can't talk about this with anyone, so I gotta hold it inside and toughen up. And when I get home, it's too overwhelming. So I have another couple of drinks just to take the edge off. In men's group, the practice men are being called and asked to do right now is turn towards each other, put our attention on each other and say, stretch, man, what's going on in your life? What's working? Were you in pain? What's not? What do you want? What do you want your life to be? You know, it doesn't have to be super complicated. And what I have found is when that space is open, men have plenty to share. When the space is open, they have plenty to share, and they get so much energy from it, and they come back vitalized for life in a lot of ways. And so it does take some training. And it's a bit countercultural to how a lot of us guys are programmed. So it takes some risk in real, genuine leadership to take the conversation deeper beneath the surface, really focusing on, how are you feeling right here and now?

Host: I like that. It's the vulnerability muscle. How often do we flex the vulnerability muscle? A muscle that we probably don't even know where it is. So it's like, it's a hard thing to step into for a lot of men, and self included, I think. You know, I've lived that life of all the time just pushing and striving. And there was a point in my life where I owned a gym and we had 300 members. And every day I'm at the gym, I'm surrounded by people, and it's an environment I love and everything. And I'm thinking, yeah, this is really great. I've got a great community around me. But how. How many of them actually know me, like, really know me? And how many deep conversations am I actually having with these people? And I got to a point where I realized that even though I'm surrounded by so many people every day, I'm lonely. I don't have deep connections and deep relationships there. And I think it can be that fake Positive or that fake thing of thinking, okay, I've got loads of mates and loads connection. But really, who can I talk to? How can I open up? Who can I express to what's going on and how I'm feeling and having that trust. Like there's that level of trust that's got to be built before you can open up and share, you know, your deepest feelings and your struggles and sort of what's going on for you. So I really grateful for you sort of sharing that about vulnerability and that practice of being more vulnerable. I'd like to maybe step in and talk a little bit about the work you do in terms of the men's circle. Because from the outside looking in, we think, oh, men just go and sit in the circle and they talk about their problems. I don't want to sit down and hear about men's problems. So I'm going to shut down or I'm not going to go with that. So can you give us a bit of an insight that might help men actually connect and go, ah, you know what, that sounds interesting. Maybe that's something I should do.

Host: Yeah, right.

Jason Lange: What do I actually want to do with it? And then, you know, it starts to break up guys lives a lot of times when they realize, you know, again, kind of coming out of that warrior phase, that it's like, like, what's the point of having all this money in the bank if I'm stressed up, my body is having autoimmune disorders, I have no relationship, I work all the time. Like, literally, what's the point? And that can be a deep hole for a man when he first confronts it. But lo and behold, when you're sitting with other men, they'll be right there in. In it with you. So, yeah, a good group, you know, emotions are part of it, but they're in service of, you know, a lot. Maybe another way to just kind of sum this up for the masculine part of all of us. And this is what a men's group can serve. Really. The whole MO Comes down to how do you have to start living your life now? So if the horrible thing came and you got a diagnosis or you got hit by a car in your last breath, even if it was unexpected, you were able to go out relaxed, not contracted, not I should have, or oh, my God, I never or I didn't. You can just feel it. The deep fear a lot of us men carry of I never, I didn't, I didn't complete. So a men's group is going to help you figure out how do you have to live now so you can die free.

Host: Jason, so much, mate. So much. Thank you for. For that. What you just said, what I got out of that was like, slowing down. Like, how often do I slow down and actually ask those powerful questions of, like, what do I want in life? You know, am I living true to my values? Am I living true to the purpose, the legacy, everything I want to create by following, you know, the social norm of the checklist of go to uni, get a job, climb the corporate ladder, make a lot of money, buy the house, buy the car, whatever it is, you know, is that really fulfilling me, or is there something missing? And we don't stop back. We just keep running at those goalposts. But are we even going to the right goalposts? We don't ask, what does success look like to me? And I think, like, men's group have the men's groups has the ability to create that awareness and to allow us to step off the train and decide where we want to go instead of just following that one direction. So that's really good. I also like the way you frame that question of, like, where is the tension? Because if we talk about struggle, we talk about pain, and we talk about what's not going well, I think Men can shut down with those words, but just the selection of words. Where do I feel tension? Because all men I feel speaking myself. There are parts of my life where I feel tension. It could be tension in my relationship. It could be tension in my training, tension in my work. But if I am feeling that tension, well, why am I feeling that tension? What's not aligned there for me? What's not working for me there? And what can I do to change that? Like, that's a powerful question to sit on itself. Like, I don't have to sit here and absorb that tension. I need to listen to it, and I need to go, hey, well, something's not aligned here. I need to question that and then figure out, you know, the. The emotion or how you talked about any energy in motion, like, what can I do here to experiment with making change? I could fail. But at least I'm trying. I'm trying to work on fixing that tension or getting away from that tension. And I think the big power. Another thing you mentioned there was the accountability piece. Who in your life is holding you accountable? Which men are holding you accountable? Because it's easy to get stuck on autopilot and say, we're going to do stuff and just not stick to those goals. But when we create accountability, like, that's such a powerful thing. And just having someone check in on us on that accountability, that's the thing that's going to create the big shift. Because I think as men, when we put ourselves out there and we say we're going to do something, personally, I want to make sure I get that done. You know, if I tell someone about it, it's. It's something that's, you know, going to lock me into that and make me sort of keep working on that part of my life. Whereas if I hold it in, like, and no one knows, oh, it's easy to stay on autopilot, or I'll get to that later, or, oh, it's not that important, really. I think we can really put it off. So. So many fine little points that you spoke about there that I think a lot of us. I know I can relate to, but I think a lot of us can relate to. So I really appreciate that. Jason, one more thing I want to touch on there, because we talked a bit about relationships, and we talked to you talked about, you know, a lot of men coming to you at that point, maybe where their relationship's broken down. They haven't been connected in their relationship. They've been so busy trying to provide and do all the things that they think are serving, but in reality they've created that distance. So what is it, do you think that the feminine really wants from the masculine? Or how can we start to improve our relationships with our partner?

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's spot on. And, you know, I'll just add about the group piece you named too, is a good group is going to help us see our shadows. So a lot of the work I do with men is shadow work in men's group. Because obviously, you know, if I'm. I'm standing here and you're like, do you see that shadow? And I'm like, what are you talking about? No, I'm good. I'm fine. It's not my fault. Right? But you're like, no, bro. Like, it's right there. What's hard for me to see is really easy for you to see. And that's one of the great gifts of group, is to help us see the parts of us that are unconscious. Right. I mean, I just had this experience with a guy a couple weeks ago. You know, a big decision in his life. I think it was around work and, you know, we're just in group and we're sitting and, you know, I ask him about, so, yeah, what are you feeling about this choice? And what are you feeling about this choice? And he's like, yeah, I'm pretty split, you know. And then he goes on to talk about them. Turns out option A was, yeah, and then I would this and then all that, and then I would probably do this. And it's pretty safe, it's pretty comfortable. Option B was, yeah, it's pretty exciting. Like, I would have some opportunity. I would have a lot of choice. Like, a part of me is a little bit scared. So much more energy in option B. His whole body completely different. He couldn't see it. But when seven other men reflected to him, like, dude, you were completely lit up in the second one and you were like, stone cold dead in the first one. He was like, I had no idea my body was telling me that. But we saw it instantly, right? And we reflected to him and it helps him make a much more informed choice. So, again, that's one of the great gifts of groups that can also be incredibly helpful for relationships. Right. You know, I'll just out myself. I've been to many groups coming in all convinced that my wife was in the wrong and I was in the right, and I was going to get my guys and they were going to prove to me how I was in the right. And I start to tell my story and they start to give me some feedback. And by the end of the night, it's super clear, oh, turns out I have just as much to do with this as she does. Instead of going home and attacking her, I get to go home and own my part, which actually creates connection. It's not falling on the sword of shame, so to speak. But many times I've had things illuminated for me that changed what would have been a fight into deep connection. Because other guys helped me see it.

Host: Yeah, those stories we tell ourselves and what we think are the facts of what actually happened and what we ruminate on in our mind. It's good to have that other perspective sometimes, to allow us to shift and go, actually, hang on a minute. Maybe I'm in the wrong or maybe there's more to it than what that belief is. You've mentioned shadow work a couple of times. Like, shadow works come up. So I'm just curious, like, to touch on that a little bit. Like, what is shadow work?

Jason Lange: Yeah, again, it's one of those Things that can mean a lot of things, but really what it is is it's about bringing the parts of us that are unconscious into our conscious awareness. So we have choice. So all of us, no matter who we are, we have shadow from being children and early attachment wounding in our family systems. Meaning there's certain adaptations we made to survive growing up that were smart and wise for the situations we were in. But then what our body doesn't know is, hey, dude, you're a grown ass man now, you don't need to be doing that anymore. But we don't realize it. And so we have all these unconscious beliefs and patterning that quite honestly govern our decision making without us being aware of it. So shadow work is starting to get into the process of what are these things that are controlling me that I'm not aware of that sometimes come from within and yeah, sometimes come from without. They're internalized pieces of culture or family or parents that we've made our own, right? For a lot of guys, one very simple piece of shadow work is, you know, we talked about it a little bit, identifying our inner critic. They don't just come. It's not like, hey, you just born as a baby being incredibly hard on yourself, talking to yourself in this way. Deep piece of shadow work for a lot of men is figuring out where did that, Whose voice was that that I internalized so deeply I even forgot it's not mine. And talk about a matrix moment when men start to connect the dots of lo and behold, not always, but often, mom or dad. And it's like, whoa, I've been walking around yelling at myself like how dad used to yell at me when I was eight. Boom. Once we see it, we can't unsee it. That's kind of the beauty of shadow work, which then means, you know, if you think of that, that kind of analogy of the fish in the water, fish is like, you're like, how's the water? And fish is like, what are you talking about? What's water? You finally pluck the fish out and they're like, oh my God, what? I've been in that, now I can see it. What was the subject of my awareness is now the object of my awareness. It's something I can see rather than being merged with it. And why that's valuable, why that shadow work is valuable is once we can see it, guess what? We have more choice. We don't have to unconsciously follow these patterns. So a lot of guys that come to me, one of the reasons they come to Me is there's this thing I do, could be addictive, could be in relationship, could be with work. I know it's not good for me. I have evidence that when I do this, it's bad, but I keep doing it. I keep doing it. Why? Almost always there's some kind of shadow work there. And then last thing I'll just say about it is often it's also related to just overload, trauma, and overwhelm, meaning our system at some point was confronted with something that was too big for us to handle. And so how we deal with that is we lock it off. We just lock it off. Right, Guys coming back from the military, abuse survivors, like, there's countless examples, and they're not all big. They can be small things. And so a lot of shadow work is bringing to completion unprocessed emotional content. Like all that holding we were talking about of, oh, how do I actually get in there and figure out what that sting that happens in my belly actually is? And it's a thing. And it'll take you often back to some times in places that were intense. And then we guide you through how do you reintegrate that? How do you feel that? And lo and behold, it starts to liberate and not have so much control and holding on us anymore, which, again, just means we can do more of the things we want to do with more energy and we have more agency in our own life. The more we bring these things out of the shadow and into the light.

Host: Inspiring and powerful. I think recognizing those shadows and being able to build an awareness around those shadows, see where that inner critic comes up, is something a lot more men need to work on, and it's something I definitely feel I need to work on. There are those moments there, and we don't stop to question it. So, Jason, it's been awesome to chat with you, and I think, you know, I'm inspired to do more men's work and to connect with more men and to have these conversations. Because, you know, what we've shared today has been so insightful, and I think a lot of my listeners would have got a lot out of that. If you can. If you can wave a magic wand and change one thing about how men live today, what would that be?

Jason Lange: Stop trying to do it all alone. I mean, it's just that simple. We create these really elaborate stories that to be tough, I have to do it alone. And for a lot of guys, honestly, I'm so messed up in this way. I could never tell anyone that because I'm uniquely broken. And the truth is, you start sitting in circle and it's humbling in a good way of, oh, Turns out a lot of guys struggle with this. It's not that big a deal. I'm okay. I deserve connection and love and success and all those different things. So it's really just the willingness to open up and start to talk to other men. That's it. Just like. Yeah. Start to share your story. And what good masculine leadership is these days for men is don't wait. Go first. You want to be a leader. That's what it means. Go first. Sitting with your buddy, you feel he's intentioned, right? Oftentimes we know there's like a. Yeah, he feels a little off today. Go first. Hey, man, I've been really struggling with X. What about you? He might join you, he might not. But you'll never know till you take the risk. But if you do take the risk and he joins, you could totally change that man's life.

Host: I agree. Proactive steps, mate. Being more proactive, more on the front foot, taking charge, taking control. Such a powerful message. Jason, if people want to know more about your work and what you do, where can they connect with you?

Jason Lange: Yeah, absolutely. You can keep up with me on my programs, training, men's groups, my own podcast at Evolutionary Men. So not dot com, but men. And on there, I've kind of got a whole gamut of ways can get guys can get involved in men's work.

Host: Awesome, mate. Well, thank you very much for your time today. I really appreciate it. I love your energy. I love the work that you're doing. I think we definitely need more of it in the world right now.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.

Host: If this conversation hit home, do one thing today. Reach out to a mate or join a men's group and get supported. You can learn more about Jason's work on his website or his social media channels. The links are in the Show Notes. If you want a place to start right now, join the free Midlife Mavericks school community. The link is also in the Show Notes. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow the show, leave a comment at a rating and share it with one man who needs to hear it. Thanks for listening to the Midlife Mavericks podcast. I'll see you next time.