I joined The Meademusing's Podcast because I knew their audience needed to hear this: the epidemic of male isolation isn't just a personal struggle, it's a crisis that's literally killing men, and we can't afford to stay silent about it anymore.
We talked about the man box, this rigid set of expectations that tells men we have to be tough, never show weakness, never ask for help, never cry. And the brutal reality is this framework is literally shortening men's lives. Men are dying earlier, suicide rates are climbing, and a staggering number of men report having no one they can really talk to about what's going on inside them.
What really hit in this conversation was exploring how most men are taught to relate through what I call triangulation. We connect by having our attention on some third thing, a sports game, an activity, whatever. But we're not actually connecting with each other. So you can spend time with your buddies and come home feeling completely alone because you never talked about the fact that you just lost your job or your marriage is falling apart.
We also got into the healthy masculine, this third way between the old macho jerk and the overly nice guy who can't set boundaries. It's about being connected, to your body, to your heart, to other people, to the environment around you. It's having both your heart and your balls online, your capacity for deep connection and your power and drive in life.
I shared my own journey, growing up in a family with zero emotional connection, terrified of touch, completely cut off from my body. Getting into my first men's group at 26 completely changed my life trajectory. That's what inspired me to start leading groups, to create spaces where men can actually talk about what's happening inside them and realize it doesn't make you weak to ask for help. In fact, the most powerful men I know are really good at asking for support.
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Jason Lange: Foreign.
Host: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mid Musings podcast. That podcast where we raise awareness about disabilities and everyday issues. And on today's episode, it is gonna be a special one because it's for men's mental health awareness and Father's Day, really. So we have Jason Lange with us. So welcome to today's episode, Jason.
Jason Lange: Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Host: Yeah, it would be really great to know you more and get to understand what you do. I know you are an advocate for men's health, and you do a lot of things about raising awareness for. For support groups. So really, I know we cannot emphasize how important that is for today's men. So, yes, let's know what you do in that area.
Jason Lange: Yeah, so I'm a men's coach and men's group facilitator. I really help men get more connected to themselves and get more connected to each other in life, primarily to focus on overcoming isolation and mental health issues that challenge a lot of men these days, far more than I think we sometimes realize in this day and age in that just because of a lot of different cultural pressures. You know, many men from a young age are taught that feelings are a sign of weakness and that they should hold everything inside in order to be a tough, strong man. Right. And it turns out that ends up having a lot of really challenging consequences for men. And around the world, men's mental health has been declining for many, many years. Many men report having no strong connections with anyone they can talk to. Suicide rates have been going up for men. Men tend to die earlier. And there is more and more research that a big part of that is because of how isolated men are and how their mental health contributes to that. So I try to support men in getting over that by getting them into men's groups. Right. Getting them in to these supportive groups where they can actually talk about what's going on in their lives.
Host: And like you mentioned, it's been stated statistically that men's mental health is. I mean, we don't talk about it that often. Suicide rates for men is almost about 3/4 more than it is for women. And there's so many things that affect men that men bottle up. And I mean, we hear the phrase, and the coin is saying, man up, be man. Men don't cry, and things like that. So how does your work fit into all of that?
Jason Lange: Yeah, so a big part of what I do in the work, particularly in groups, is start to give men another model how they can be in the world. And particularly this idea that other men don't have to just be competition. You know, many men, and for good reason, have fear of other men because they were bullied, sometimes they were abused by fathers or caregivers. And there's a large percentage of men out there who actually have a hard time trusting men, and sometimes for very good reason. But a good solid men's group is a place where we get to start to rewire that and say, hey, there are safe and healthy men. And in these spaces it is okay to actually talk about what's going on in life. I think this is one of the real challenges I see with many men that I work with is we're taught to relate via what I call triangulation. So me in you. We build connection with each other by having our attention on some third thing. A sports game, an activity, you name it. Our attention is usually on some third thing and not necessarily on each other and what this the impact of that can be. Men can spend time with each other, right? I was just out with my buddies and then I come home and actually feel alone or depressed because I wasn't actually able to talk about the fact that I just lost my job or my wife's leaving me or I, you know, have this health challenge. And so in men's group, we learn to turn that attention towards each other. Where men in essence can start to talk about what's happening in inside of themselves, right? Which often has then direct correlation to their feelings and their emotions. And that's the thing that often has the most adverse impact on men long term is when they don't know what they're feeling, don't know how to talk about what they're feeling and don't know what to do with their feelings. Because then, lo and behold, when they, they are feeling something uncomfortable inside. What's the default for most men? To numb, to get away from it, to reach for a beer, to get some weed, to go for sex or work harder or go for food, to try to change their state, which might help in the short term, but never helps in the long run. And this kind of emotional calcification catches up with men, particularly as they age and starts to show up in their actual physical health, right? They're more likely to die from heart disease if they're lonely. Immune system goes down. All kinds of things add up to the impact of when we hold, hold all that inside. So the good men's groups I lead teach men that, hey, it's not weak to talk about what's happening inside of you. In fact, the more skillful you become at that, the more trustable you become as a man and the healthier you become as a man. So the more you can actually do in the world.
Host: Yeah, of course. Yes. I suppose a support group should be a place of safety where men can talk to peers, where they can meet with other men and just be themselves, really. And they can be open about asking questions that are actually men related. And I mean, you know, we women, we get together all the time and, you know, sometimes when we get together, we can be ourselves. We just let her hair down and we are just like, okay, let's just have a girl's time. So I suppose in that respect, a support group for men should be somewhere where they can really stay on top of things, keep track of activities. Like, I mean, so. But there are some barriers to this kind of openness sometimes, because sometimes if you get. You think that when you talk about your emotions that it is not a manly thing. And I think sometimes men get into their. This man box, you know?
Jason Lange: Yeah.
Host: So that's one thing that I think we need to actually trash. I mean, let's talk about this man box. What happens there? I mean, as a man.
Jason Lange: Yeah, totally. The. The man box. And you know, it's. It's a little different depending on the culture you're immersed in in the world. But overall, there is this kind of. What we, what we mean by the man box is there's this set of boxes, literally we have to check off that keep us into this very confined way of being as men. And if you don't check those boxes off, you're not considered a man. And there's some really interesting research around this, actually, that they did a number of years ago where they re. They interviewed both men and women. So this is really important. They interviewed men and women and they asked them two basic questions. Women, what marks the transformation and change from a girl to a woman? And what marks the transformation and change and difference between a boy and a man? And I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but what was reported on both sides was for girls and women, it was mostly associated with their biology. Right. They developed, their bodies changed. They had their menstrual cycle. Suddenly they were. They were considered a woman. With boys, to men, it was not based on physical things. So just because a boy had physically matured, people wouldn't necessarily consider him a man because it was instead mostly defined by his behavior. How is he showing up in the world? Is he acting Responsibly. And that's. I point that out because it's some of the evidence which points to the man box, that it's actually. It's less about our biology. We can be a fully grown, matured man, but still be considered a boy in terms of how we're showing up. And then where it gets really damaging is this actual man box is. Right. Like I said, this list of checkboxes that in most cultures hold true, which are, don't ever show weakness. Don't ever ask for help. Never cry, never show fear. If sex is available to you, you should take it. And if you don't, there's something wrong with you as a man. And the list just goes on and on and on all the way down. And it really ends up creating this. This sense that if I don't do these things, I am often labeled and judged by other men as not being a man. And so suddenly there's this rigid set of behaviors we're expected to conform to that ultimately don't actually support us men in being healthy. They push us into what I call the myth of the lone wolf. Right. This idea that the ultimate tough man is a guy who doesn't need anybody. Anybody's help is like the lone wolf just moving through life alone. And the sad thing about that is, if we actually look to nature, the lone wolf is the wolf that was kicked out of the pack. And they never live as long. They actually do die sooner without that communal in tribal support. And so that man box, you know, another big thing the. The man box does is it teaches men that, yeah, asking for help and getting any kind of mental support means there's something wrong with you. So never, ever go to therapy or never get coaching of any kind. Right. Because that's only for people that are really messed up. Um, that's. That's. That's what a lot of men carry inside themselves and which, again, causes them even more harm and pain because oftentimes they'll be in pain and there's ways out of it, but there's something wrong with getting that kind of help. So that man box is a huge pressure on men all around the world. That has a lot of negative impact.
Host: Yeah, thank you so much for that. I mean, I suppose that takes me to the next point of this issue of man being masculine, because you talked about this concept that men go through and women go through as it differs. And that shows that there's a lot of responsibility placed on a man in being a masculine man. I mean, being masculine Anyway, but at the end of the day, how healthy is it to be masculine? How do you stay healthy as a man anyway?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I think this is the great transformation that is being asked of for men in our culture right now that to be a healthy man means you're. In essence, it means also to be a connected man. So a lot of the challenge and where a lot of the negative heat, so to speak, for masculinity and men comes from is there's a long and well documented history, some of which probably your listeners have experienced personally, of what men can do when they're disconnected from their hearts and disconnected from the impact they have on the relationships and environment around them. What we're talking about here is healthy men are connected. So they're connected to themselves, able to feel what they're feeling in their bodies and their hearts. They're connected to other people. So their relationships around them, their children, spouses, friends, family, co workers, and they're also connected to the environment they're in. Literally, what is the earth? I'm part of this earth, I'm not separate from it. And so hurting it is hurting myself. So a healthy man is aware of all those levels of connection. And what he does is he tries to promote the most well being for the most people. And that starts with that man learning to take care of himself. That, okay, if I want to be a stable, safe nervous system and presence for the people around me, I have to get a handle on what's happening inside me. And many men have no handle on that. Like I said, they're not taught what they're feeling inside, they're not taught what to do with it, often get overtaken, particularly by anger, by their emotions, which is not safe at all. This healthy masculine is fully aware of what's going on inside of ourselves emotionally and takes responsibility for what we do with that. Doesn't mean we never get angry or sad or fearful. It does mean we know how to handle that in a safe and responsible way. And as I teach my men first and foremost, one of the best ways you can do that is by bringing those uncomfortable feelings to other men who can support you, hold you, witness you, etc. It's this willingness to be connected to our bodies, our hearts and our environments that I think really signifies the healthy masculine that's just starting to emerge more and more in the culture in that has is creates a lot of pain for men because there's not a lot of role modeling of it. Right. There's not a lot of visions for guys to look at of, oh, that's what I want to be. Because most men just see the kind of old. The macho man jerk modeled for them. The guy who's just, yeah, take what I want and go for what I want. Or more and more. They also see kind of the. The nice guy, the man who's just very safe, very friendly, but has a really hard time setting boundaries or standing up for himself or going towards what he wants. And so what we're talking about here, this healthy masculine, is the third way. And not to be too crass, but as I. I teach my guys, it's. We have connection to our heart and our balls. Like our power, our desire, our want, our drive in life. We can have both. It doesn't have to be either or, like so many men are taught.
Host: Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, right. I'm just curious as to what actually got you to start these support groups for men and to create this space for men.
Jason Lange: What got you was my own journey. So I'm a. I'm a white man raised in the Midwest of the United States, kind of lower middle class. So I had all of my basic survival needs taken care of. I had that privilege. But as I was growing up, what I became aware of, you know, not till a little later in life, but my family had no sense of interior connection. We had no idea how to connect and how to be emotionally available and talk about what was happening inside. My parents, you know, they worked really hard for us, but they didn't know how to talk about anything. So we are basically a bunch of people living in the same house. And that was kind of it. There was no touch. There was no emotional intimacy. And because of that, I was raised pretty cut off. I was very numb in my body. I didn't know how to connect to myself. I often carried a lot of anxiety and fear, and I was deeply uncomfortable with touch. And this all really started to surface for me when I went through puberty as a young man and suddenly had all these hormones going through me and was interested, in my case, heterosexual in women. And I didn't know how to talk to them. I was just deathly afraid. My body would get sweaty and tight. I'd get really anxious. I had male friends at the time. A lot of them would connect by kind of wrestling and horse playing with each other. I was always just kind of quiet on the side and carried a lot of mental anguish of I don't know how to be in the world and how to get what I want. And that really Kickstarted me on a path of, okay, there's gotta be a better way to do this, right? There's gotta be some other way to live, not waking up in so much pain every day. And that kicked me off on a big journey of growth. But really two main things shifted things for me. One was experiencing somatic therapy, so body based therapy that helped me get in touch with what was happening inside. And then when I was 26, I got plugged into my first men's group. So I got to sit in presence with other deep wise men who are on a path of growth and learning. And that, more than anything else in my life, completely changed the trajectory of who I am by getting the support from those men. Having a place to bring my vulnerability, having a place to be held accountable when there were important things. I wanted to move forward and I got hooked. I just got super into it. And then I started talking about it to everyone, like, hey, this is what's working for me, right? I got these men, they're really amazing. And other guys started to ask me, like, hey, could we, you know, I want to join your group? And literally where we met at the time was one of my. The men in my group was a therapist and he just had a small office, so we could only fit eight guys. And so I decided, okay, well, I'm going to start leading some to try to create a space for other men to experience what I've experienced. And it really just took off from there. Every year I've just gotten more training and supported more men in different ways. And there's now a very real, I think, rising awareness of a lot of men are in pain, don't know how to talk about it. And when men are in pain and isolated, they're very vulnerable to being manipulated in led down paths that are not necessarily so great for them. So there's a real need, I think right now to get men connected. And I'm very inspired to do so. And so part of my mission is I think every man should be in a men's group. And I think the world would be a much better place if men. And I'm not talking, this doesn't have to be 20 or 30 guys, like just six or seven guys in your life that really know what's going on inside of you and really know where you want to go in your life and can support.
Host: So what's this journey? What has this journey been like for you from when you started to now, not just your own journey as a person, but with the men's groups. What has journey been like for you?
Jason Lange: Yeah, for me it's been amazing seeing so many men respond to the work. And one of the reasons I love leading groups and I've led, you know, hundreds at this point over, over the last decade or so is seeing what happens to men when they feel and realize there's another way of being that no one taught them that they're allowed to feel and that they have a safe space. And I don't mean safe like you know, nobody gives each other feedback. I mean safe in that no matter what you bring forward, you're going to be met with connection. That's what safety means. In the work I do as men experience that best way I can describe this, it's literally like they come back alive. Right. They might be kind of depressed, tired all the time, sunken eyes and to see just color come back in their face, energy, hope, smiles, vitality is so inspiring. It's like can actually see men get younger. It feels like as they get connected in groups. And I've been blown away by the transformations I've seen in men as they get into a group and their careers change, their families change, their health changes. Suddenly they have a way to move towards the things that they feel the most, that they feel are the most important in their lives. So it's been an amazing journey to be leading the groups and to see more and more men showing up for the work.
Host: Thank you. Thank you so much. I really love that. I mean it's amazing to hear about programs that make men actually redeemed. That's, I mean because that's this description you've just given me. They've, they, you see color on their faces, you bring this smile back on their faces, you know, because I mean there's a lot of issues that really bother around men. We have homelessness, substance abuse, you know, and all of these are like most times you see there's an 80% chance of a man being stopped and searched, especially in the UK than it is for women. I mean I don't think women get stopped and searched and these are things that actually bother on their emotions and this affect their mental health and well being as well. And issues like even gun crimes, you know, I mean these are all concepts that I think we need to get men together to talk about more openly and platform like yours gives them that opportunity. But where can men connect together? Is it online? Do you do it online or do you have like locations where they meet or how is it done?
Jason Lange: Yeah, one of the great things Things about and why I think this is picking up steam in this moment is we can meet virtually now, like you and I are here, halfway across the world from each other. And that I have found that, yeah, men's groups work really well virtually and over zoom. And depending on particularly where men are located, that might be their only option. I work with a lot of guys who live in more rural areas or in cities where they don't quite have access to kind of, you know, transformational spiritual growth work stuff. And so having access online suddenly opens, opens a doorway to them to a type of connection they might not have otherwise. So I lead a lot of stuff virtually and I also lead things in person as well. I lead live retreats and workshops and there are, you know, men's group organizations around the world. I'm not the only one doing this that have physical presence in different cities. And it is pretty special if you can find a group you can meet with in person just because you get even more connection. Right? You can literally give each other a hug, which is just something we haven't quite figured out how to do over zoom yet and may never. So, you know, it's great if you can find something geograph based for you where you can actually meet men in person, but if you can't, I want to make it super clear that you can get a tremendous amount of connection and benefit even just meeting virtually. It's one of the really unique things that's possible in this time and place. So in some sense there's no excuse anymore because as long as you have access to, you know, the Internet, which I know not everyone does, but if you do, there's a way that you can start to get some support and some connection through something like a men's group group.
Host: Oh, thank you. And at this point I would just like to point out some support resources that I found out for men. Awesome Kind Initiative. That's a support group for male victims of domestic abuse that's available on www.manKind.org. that's for the UK one. Then number 808-0880-0170. And there's Men's Mind Matters, that's a mental Health and SU Charity for Men that's available www.mensmindmatter.com. that's. Then there is Men in Need Together, which is M I N T Men in Need Together. It provides free weekly support groups for all men to attend in a peer setting. We've got men's Aid charity on 0333-56705, 5 6. And there's another one called Men's Group. It's just available on www.mainsgroup.com. so there's so many options for men. It's just resources available online. There is betterhelp.com it's a therapy group. You can do a self referral for that one actually. So and then there is Shout which is on www.give us a shout.org and then I've got Lifeline US USA that's for the US one. It's on 1-800-273-8255. And that provides a confidential support for people as well. And there is a campaign against living miserably. I always like to refer to that as well, it's just for anyone who wants to talk about mental health at all. So also there is Anxiety, Anxiety and Depression association of America. There's all sorts of resour the summary times 116123. Lots of resources available for men if you want to talk to anyone. And so at this stage I know we're running out of time so we would like you to just tell us where our listeners can reach you.
Jason Lange: Yeah, I'd be happy to share so you can learn all about me, more about the men's groups I lead and the support I can offer [email protected]. so it's not.com but it's.men. and you can learn pretty much everything you need to know about joining groups I've created. And even if you don't work with me, I'm very happy to support men in finding something near them. So just drop me a message in the contact form and I can get you, you know, point you in the right way to, to find the resources you might need in your area.
Host: Oh, that's brilliant. Do you have anything that you want our listeners to take from this particular talk or is there anyone you like to give a shout out to, you know?
Jason Lange: Yeah, I just, you know, I'll speak directly to any men listening that are suffering. Too many men out there do have this story that I have to do it alone and it's not okay to share, you know, when I'm having a tough time. And it does not make you weak to ask for help. In fact, the most powerful men I know in the world, they're doing the most incredible things. They're actually really good at asking for help and getting support because nobody can do it alone.
Host: Yeah, definitely. Nobody does it alone. And what's the fatherhood being like really?
Jason Lange: I have greatly enjoyed being a Father. I have a five year old and a two year old, or, sorry, a three month old as of this recording. And it's been an incredible process, you know, sometimes painful in the sense of a lot of parents include myself in this. As we're parenting, it becomes really clear what we didn't get, what we didn't receive. Right. So a type of presence or connection that I'm able to provide for my children that like, wow, I can really feel my parents were doing the best they could, but they did not know how to give that. And so it's been quite healing actually to be able to give that to, to my children. And as a man, it's an incredible growing opportunity. I'm always learning how to become more present and less reactive and just really support the little light sight I see in each of them. So it's a never ending learning opportunity for me.
Host: Yeah, it is a never ending psycho really being a man. Because from even childhood you have so much on your shoulders and then get into adulthood or I mean, you just have. We, we don't, we don't talk about this often, you know, so that's why I thought really we need to, to bring out all these issues and talk about them openly. And I mean, it's been known also that men are more likely to be suicidal. So yes, that's, it's a lot. So thank you so much for being, I mean, for providing a platform for men to actually be open about all these issues and be able to connect together, to be able to come together to minds, to grow, to develop, to be better men, really, and to actually be better leaders. Because better men as well as better women, a better society. And when we have a better society, we have better leaders that actually take care of the future of the society as well. So thank you so much.
Jason Lange: I love that. Yeah, thank you for what you do in hosting and creating a, this space for, for, for everybody. It's really amazing.
Host: Amazing. Thank you and hope to catch up with you soon.
Jason Lange: A big thank you to all our listeners who have been sending us messages through the message link. I would like to thank everyone who has listened in so far and contributed to this podcast. Thank you so much. We couldn't have done anything without you. Keep listening, keep sharing, keep downloading and keep liking. Thank you again.
