Lone Wolf No More: Embracing the Power of Men’s Circles | Driven 2 Thrive: Purpose, Growth, and Lasting Impact For Men

Host: On this episode of the Fallible Man Podcast, discover how to build meaningful connections in your life and family, overcome loneliness and find genuine companionship. Embrace vulnerability as a strength and cultivate a supportive tribe that lifts you up. Join us for an enlightening discussion with men's coach and podcaster Jason Lange. Here's the million dollar question. How do men like us reach our full potential, growing to the men we dream of becoming while taking care of our responsibilities, working and living, being good husbands, fathers and still take care of ourselves? Well, that's the big question. And in this podcast we'll help you with those answers and more. My name is Brent and welcome to the Fallible Man Podcast. Welcome to the Fallible Man Podcast. Your home for all things man, husband and father. Big shout out to Fallible Nation. That's our private community. There's more information about that if you're interested down in the show, notes or description, wherever you're watching the show, and a warm welcome to our first time listeners. Hey, thanks for checking us out. We know that there is a lot fighting for your attention these days, so it means a lot to us that you're taking the time to check out the show. Please be sure and connect with me at the Fallible man on most social medias and let me know what you thought of the show. I'd love to hear your opinion of it. If you really enjoyed it. Be sure and leave us review on Apple Podcasts and come back around. We do this twice a week. Today my special guest is men's coach and podcaster Jason Lange. Jason, welcome to the Fallible Man Podcast.

Jason Lange: So excited to be here, Jason.

Host: It's going to be a good conversation, but we like to start out on the lighter note. So how is your trivia skills?

Jason Lange: Depends on the topic, but you know, I got a quit. I got a few arrows in the quiver.

Host: Okay. Okay. Well, I look these up so you know it's hit or miss whether I get one that's in the right area for you. What is Bruno Mars's real name? Is it A, Peter Gene Hernandez, B, Michael Najean Stevenson, C, Ray Aguilar or D, Bruno Marts? I can't even say that. Master that one.

Jason Lange: I'd go with the last one, but I have no idea.

Host: Okay guys, you know how the game works. Don't cheat, don't skip ahead, don't look it up, and for God's sake, don't write it down. If you're listening to this into the car, just remember what it is and come back later and we'll deal with that. Oh, so groundbreaking, earth shattering question that we're all concerned about Jason. I don't do big introductions. So in your own words today, who is Jason Lang?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm a father, first and foremost. I'm a husband and I'm a man who loves to help other men. And so a lot of that's born out of my own journey as a, you know, human being on this planet who is been trying to figure out, hey, how can I do this life in a way that is full of love, full of impact. And in trying to figure that out for myself, I've kind of fallen into helping other men do that. So I just love supporting other guys. I'm also a big nerd in the sense I love movies and film and music and invest a lot of my time into just enjoying and exploring that world as well. So lots of things I'm passionate about, but particularly probably movies and men are probably the biggest two.

Host: Okay, so we're a movie. See, I, I always got to clarify with that. When someone's like, I'm a nerd. You got to clarify, right, Because I'm, I'm a huge movie nerd. Yeah, great, totally. Like, sync up on that. But then you get like, I had one guy, I asked a question and it was a dnd question. He's like, why, why couldn't it be like space nerd, like aliens and stuff like that?

Jason Lange: Sure, totally.

Host: I don't do fantasy. I do like space nerd. I'm like, ah, so complicated.

Jason Lange: It is a, it is a vast world. That's true of, of nerd dumb these days. You know, in a lot of ways, I think we've won the culture, right?

Host: Everybody, everybody is a nerd in some place. Whether they want to admit or not, they got that one or two things that they're just like, you get them there and they completely nerd out. I had one guest we saw, swapped recipes, Italian recipes for like 20 minutes.

Jason Lange: That's awesome.

Host: I cut an entire like 20 minute portion of the show out because we just, we nerded out together swapping Italian recipes.

Jason Lange: Right.

Host: So, yeah, you never, you find that right spot for people. So what's, what's your favorite movie? Gotta ask.

Jason Lange: Oh, I have so many, man, I could list this for eons and eons and eons. So again, it kind of depends on the, the, the genre, but, you know, deep cut here. So this is a film nerd one for sure. But I love My uncle by Jacques Titti, which is a like from the 50s. Just an unbelievable French movie. I don't know if you've ever seen any of them, but it's about this character. And they're essentially silent movies made well past the silent era. But they are the most visually stimulating films one could imagine. And they're hilarious. They're just hilarious. So highly recommend checking out any of his films. Those are ones that I would just go to anytime. Like, kids find them funny, older people find them funny. They're just immensely entertaining in a way that movies aren't really made like that anymore.

Host: See, I, I love, I love those little hidden gems in there. Have you seen Sunset? The Sunset Limited? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Most people have never heard of that film. Oh, my goodness. Talk about, like, it, it wasn't like a huge visual. Like the whole thing is a conversation between two men. It's a brilliant movie.

Jason Lange: I love on the subject matter.

Host: But I would also watch those two actors discuss, like recipes for gravy or something.

Jason Lange: That's when, you know, they, they got the chemistry right. Like, I'll just sit here, watch you talk.

Host: So how many kids you got?

Jason Lange: Just one? Yeah, I got one four year old.

Host: Yeah. All right. They're four. Four is a fun age. I've got a nine year old and a 12 year old.

Jason Lange: Oh, yeah, yeah. You're in a different. Getting into a different phase.

Host: Yeah, I'm, I'm getting into. I'm feeling old age. My, my 12 year old is starting to do stuff with the youth group at church. And, uh, my nine year old went to her first sleepover this last weekend.

Jason Lange: Oh, wow.

Host: My stress levels went through the roof. I've got. It's like, no, you know, she's never been away from home without us, one of us with her, and it's like the whole night I'm on edge, just waiting for my phone to ring to go get her. I, I'm a slightly overprotective dad.

Jason Lange: Just.

Host: Fair enough. I'll. Anybody listening? That's, that's just me being honest. I'm, I'm definitely a little bit overprotective. What is your best playground insult?

Jason Lange: My best playground insult? Let me think. I was never a great. I was never really the insulter in some sense. I was always the peacemaker on the playground. You know, it'd probably be some kind of fart joke. I don't know. You know, nothing, nothing too complex here.

Host: Okay, fair enough, Fair enough. Zombie apocalypse. What's your weapon of choice?

Jason Lange: I would probably go something very basic like a sword or an axe. You know, that's not gonna. That.

Host: That.

Jason Lange: That if tended, could last a very long time. See, that's not ending anytime soon. Right.

Host: There's a lot of logic behind that. I love people who are like, oh, I'd get a big gun. It's like what happens when you run out of ammunition.

Jason Lange: Exactly.

Host: Gotta think these things through. Coffee, tea, energy drink, soda or something else entirely these days.

Jason Lange: I'll have tea and I have about one coffee a day. I did about a year and a half decaf and no caffeine and just lightly sprinkling my toes back in these days.

Host: Oh, my goodness. I'm sorry. I. I have a background in I T. And some other fields and I, I live on caffeine. The funny thing is, like, I. It doesn't. I don't know if I technically fall into like, the ADHD scale because it doesn't hype me up.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Yeah.

Host: I'll drink all the way up till I go to bed and I. I sleep like a baby.

Jason Lange: Yeah. I got. I did the. The genetics thing a number of years ago and it actually showed that I have. That there's a slow caffeine gene where you metabolize caffeine much slower than other people. So I think you and I have the same thing where, like, I don't get the big jitter. Like, it's just kind of like, oh, a little more here. Okay.

Host: I know clinically ADHD diagnosis. Like actual legitimate clinical adhd. Because I used to be a youth minister.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: It has the opposite effect. Like, I had two kids. I would buy coffee on some trips. Sure are. For like five hours driving to go somewhere as a group. I would pull over and like, buy them an espresso. Take this now. Yeah. Because on an actual legitimate ADHD diagnosis, it will bring them down.

Jason Lange: That's amazing.

Host: Yeah, that, that's. I mean, the biggest, cheapest way to find out if you are idiot. If you're like, easy all the time and coffee slows you down. Consult your physician because we're not doctors here. But that's, that's the big giveaway after working with teenagers for 20 plus years is like, oh, okay, now I know.

Jason Lange: Amazing.

Host: What purchase of $100 or less have you made in the last year that's had the biggest impact on your life?

Jason Lange: Just coming out of, you know, kind of the winter illness season. We got one of those handheld vaporizers. You can just breathe in hot water, essentially. Oh, man. To just. When you're all congested, just sit back, breathe for like 15 minutes. It is amazing. It has Been a game changer for us. We had like an old one. You'd have to like be in the kitchen standing over, you know, the counter. It was so uncomfortable and I was just like chilling on tv kind of, you know, looks like a space mask in a sense. But huge recommend. My wife and I are like totally, totally on board.

Host: Really. I'm gonna have to go to the store after this. I. I'm the guy standing over the boiling pot on the stove.

Jason Lange: Yep, totally. Yeah. This one, you just hit a little button. You can put some essential oils in there. Just easy, deep breathing. So good during this time of year.

Host: Yeah.

Jason Lange: Especially with kids. Right. When you have sickness. Just constantly coming through the house.

Host: I just, I'm a lifetime sign of sufferer. Like I have really like just clinically bad sinus issues all the time. I'm always stuffed up. There's. There is no clear. There's manageable, then there's knock you down non function days. But manageable is I can breathe with about the oxygen flow about you know, 20% of a normal person.

Jason Lange: Yeah, man, it's. I don't have it that strong, but I do have a pretty deviated septum. So like this side is pretty non functional. This side, you know, I can get some airflow. But yeah, man, it, it's annoying. It, it slows you down in life.

Host: Not being a little. I had an ear, nose and throat specialist be like, wow, your life has had to suck. I was like, what do you mean? She's like, the glands in your nose are so oversized that you have like a paper width of airflow on each side of your nose. She's like, I just had to, I was like, I was a starter on every team I was ever on. She's like, think of how far you could have gone in sports if you could actually breathe like a normal person. You know. I didn't think my life sucked until you said that. Thank you very much.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: To know I could have performed that much better. Yeah, thank you for that. That's a hindsight I didn't want.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it for me it's actually quite impacted. My sleep is probably the, the biggest place. So I'm now on the. Just get all the things at night to have a good night of sleep where I do the nose thing, I do the mouth tape and it works though I gotta say. I'm about two months in and I am like waking up. Full nasal passages which I'm like fully open. I'm like, wow, this Is totally different. And not. Not. Not covered in a pool of drool like I usually am.

Host: How's the mouth tape? I've never actually. I keep seeing the.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's great.

Host: Man brand.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Yeah, I got them and recommended from another friend, actually, because they're like. It's one of the only ones strong enough to handle facial hair. But it's great. Yeah. You know, by. By the time I wake up, I can't even feel it's on anymore. Just kind of interesting. Body's, like, so used to it, so it just kind of disappears. But, yeah, I found my sleep quality has gone way up. And because I used to be a mouth breather and, you know, tossing and turning all night, and now it's like, I wake up in the morning, and I'm breathing through my nose, and it's just like, ah. My mouth is nice and humid and, you know, not all dry and gross. So it's been a total win for me.

Host: Oh, my goodness. Well, I don't know if you guys are getting much out of this, but I am, so I'm buying mouth tape now. Who knew? See? Great conversations. That's why I like to talk to people. You learn things when you talk to people. Jason, if I sat down with your family, what is one funny story they tell to try and embarrass you?

Jason Lange: They would probably tell stories of me. Honestly, just, like, getting so into action figures. I was just the kind of kid that would just play and play and play in my own little imaginary world. My favorite thing used to be after we'd, like, mow the lawn, be taking all the grass clippings, and, like, making little forts for my action figures in the corner of the yard. And, man, I would just, like, be out there in my own little universe for hours and hours and hours. And, you know, it was. It was fascinating to them. They just called me my. I was on in my own little.

Host: Bubble, you know, hey, there's. There's nothing wrong with that. As a dad, I love seeing kids with enough imagination that they can do that.

Jason Lange: Totally. Yeah. It is fun not seeing my daughter do the same thing.

Host: Right? You're just like, yes. You know, because that's. That's a kid who's never gonna be truly lonely.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Yeah.

Host: That's how to imagine and play by themselves, and.

Jason Lange: I love that.

Host: If you won $10 million tomorrow, what will you spend on.

Jason Lange: You know, getting things secure for my family. So just creating a stable base of investment for the future of my lineage. Yeah, that would be the. The first Thing. Second thing, you know, I'd probably do one of those like around the world golden tickets where you can just get on any plane or train and finally take the time to, you know, see quite a bit of what I've never seen and bring the family along for that and just explore, man, explore all the just wild, different geographies and cultures that I have some ideas about. But you know, the, the traveling I have done, it's just always so mind bending for me to actually be there and do it. And man, I would love to take a trip like that if I had unlimited funds.

Host: Be nice. What's one totally random fact that people don't know about you?

Jason Lange: I am. One of the, one of the places I'm a nerd is I love, I love sharks. I just, man, I grew up, you know, a Shark Week aficionado and always the kid checking out the shark books from the library. And I cannot wait, you know, on the travel front one day to do one of the diving expeditions and actually get in the water and just see these, you know, the big old great whites in particular, I think would just be awe inspiring to, you know, an animal that's just kind of been doing its thing for as long as we know, you know, just out there. And as they've learned more about them, you know, and now we can approach them in different ways. It's like they're basically just super chill almost 98 of the time. You know, they think you're a seal. Yeah, you might be in some trouble, but otherwise you can just kind of hang out with them, which is like so different than, you know, when I was raised, it was always putting blood in the water and they'd get into a frenzy and Right. You know, Jaws and people just had these demonic thoughts about them, but they're actually, no, just relatively chill. Fish. Sharks.

Host: You do Instagram?

Jason Lange: I do, yeah. Yeah.

Host: Have you checked out Ocean Ramsay?

Jason Lange: Oh, yeah, man. Just man, that footage, right? Every time I'm like stunning.

Host: My, my future sister in law has dove with her. She's a Hawaii girl and she's gotten to dive with her and she loves diving with sharks and stuff. I'm like, no, I'm good, thanks.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'm sure I'd be quivering the moment I do it, but man, I've.

Host: Been around large land mammals, but man, and I love the water, but you get me. Like, I like being the top of the food chain or at least, yeah, sure, I'm the top of the food chain in, in their world, I'm not And I know that self realization was like, yes, there are things scarier. Got it.

Jason Lange: Yeah.

Host: I don't. I don't think sharks are evil. I just know it's like, once I'm in their element.

Jason Lange: Totally.

Host: We are now not on level ground as far as. Right.

Jason Lange: Yeah. Definitely a power differential once we get in the water, that's for sure.

Host: That's very cool. Sharks, huh?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I love them, man.

Host: What's one thing everybody should know about you before we dig in today?

Jason Lange: Everything should know about me, man. I just care. I'm just a man who cares about other people, about the planet, about culture, about love. I care, and I've oriented a considerable amount of my life around caring.

Host: Okay, it's fair. Guys. We've been getting to know Jason just a little bit, seeing who he is, what he's about, what he's like. Well, in this part of the show, we're going to talk about Jason's company, what he does, his podcast, and we're going to start diving into the myth of the lone wolf versus the pack now. Now, Jason, tell us a little bit about Evolutionary man and what you're doing there as far as coaching and how you got there. I mean, was that always what you've done or.

Jason Lange: No, it's definitely been a journey for me and my life. My work's taken many, you know, career moves and whatnot. I was a filmmaker for a long time, did a lot of media production, but it really all started the journey here. Started in my 20s and actually even earlier in that. I, you know, was raised in a pretty great family, but didn't really have any emotional connection in it, like, so all my needs were kind of, you know, met in terms of just place to live, food to eat. Parents did what they could, but there was no interiority to our family and our ability to connect with each other. So I grew up pretty lonely and grew up not really knowing how to connect in a lot of ways and not feeling very comfortable in my body. And particularly as I became a teenager and became interested in dating, that really started to become apparent in my life, and I just didn't know how to do it. And so I spent all my teenage years and pretty much most of my twenties alone and single. And the only. Not the only, but one of the positive things in there is I always just happened to have a pretty solid small group of men around me, male friends who know, particularly in the earlier years where it was around video games and nerd stuff. Then as I got into my 20s and, you know, Was really finding, like, wow, I don't feel good in my body most of the time. Like, I just don't feel good. I don't feel happy. I often feel anxious and stressed and uncomfortable. I kind of stepped onto the path of inner work and growth and did many, many, many things. But the one that was probably the biggest profound shift for me was in my mid-20s, I got into my first men's group, right? So I got. Got connected to a bunch of other guys who were just wanting to grow as men, as humans. And that really set a trajectory for me in a lot of ways. Had me take some bold moves in my career and take some risks. Really got me evolved, so to speak, in my inner world and my capacity to connect to others and how I felt about myself. And I just stayed on that train, you know, even as I moved around the country. I formed a new men's group when I moved and was just so deep into it and was naturally often talking to people about it of like, hey, here's something I'm doing. It's been really useful for me. And then guys in particular would start to ask me, like, oh, hey, can I join? Like, do you have any space in your group? And I'd be like, in my group at the time was, you know, a closed group. So it's just eight of us, and we. Where we met, we literally didn't have space for anyone else. I'd be like, no, but, you know, I'd highly suggest checking something out. And after a while, enough guys asked me that, I was like, huh, Maybe. Maybe I should do something for some of these men. And so I just started leading groups on two Mondays a night in my living room, of my house, in. Things really just kind of grew from there in that I started doing that more and more. I started getting more energy for it, and I started getting, you know, financial reward back. And I was like, well, I love doing this. It seems to be something I'm good at. There's a huge need, and why don't I give it a go? So I pivoted to becoming a men's group coach back in, like, 2018, and I've been doing it ever since, and I love it. You know, I do them online, I do them in person, and I'm just really part of my mission is, you know, every guy should be in a man's group. And I feel like the world would be a much, much better place, and a lot of us men would be a lot happier and. And just thriving more in general if that was the case.

Host: Tell us a little bit about your podcast, the Evolutionary man podcast. All right.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's called Evolutionary Men, and it's me kind of just sharing most of the time about the different things I've discovered in my journey that help men in particular lead in their lives and including their love lives of, like, what does it take to be a grounded, present, impactful man in the modern, you know, modern day? One of the challenges a lot of men I work with, and certainly was true for me, struggle with is, you know, there's so much talk these days around the toxic masculine and the dangers men bring to the world, but there's not a whole lot of talk about, like, well, what's the positive, right? What's the healthy version of the masculine? Or men, and what are our role models for mo. Many, many of us men, as I. As I often say, if we're lucky, we maybe got it exposed to three of the kind of primary archetypes of. Of men, one of which is, you know, I kind of call the old school macho jerk. It's just a guy who's like, goes out there and does what he wants, takes what he wants, tends to be pretty focused on himself, and doesn't necessarily care a lot about the people around him. And oftentimes those men can acquire a lot of power and succeed and achieve in different areas of life, but at great cost, sometimes to relationships, the environment, culture, etc. Then in kind of the. The response to that, you know, a lot of men grew up, grew up seeing volatile men or abusive men or men who abuse their power, you know, whatever that might be. There was the emergence of what we call the nice guy, you know, which was kind of coined by my. My friend Dr. Robert Glover in his book no More Mr. Nice Guy, which is kind of the opposite of that. So it's the man who's totally present in his heart, is very sensitive, very safe, really cares about taking care of people around him. But often the cost of that is he disconnects from himself. His own power, his own wants, his own needs, often struggles to set boundaries in many different ways, and is often left feeling frustrated in life, not getting the types of relationships he wants or not getting the type of work he wants. And that one doesn't really work. And then there's also what I kind of call the stoic, right? Sometimes we get from our grandfathers or just other different men who are the kind of men that just show up, do their work, are technically there in their lives and communities, but it Battened down the hatches in terms of their, their inner world. Right. They never show any weakness, never show any emotion, tend to be kind of pretty isolated. And that one doesn't work either. Right. All three of these end up causing a lot of pain for men. So, like, what's, what's beyond that is kind of what my podcast is about, is how do we become men that are rooted, grounded in our power, open and sensitive and, and deeply aware to what's most important in our relationships and our culture and our family to be able to, you know, give our gifts and create safety and lead in the world?

Host: And guys, that's Evolutionary Men, right? I, I, I made that mistake. Looking forward earlier. If you type in evolutionary man, you don't find his show. It's Evolutionary Men.

Jason Lange: Yeah, no, totally.

Host: I was researching for the show, and I'm like, why isn't this coming up? I know that. Oh, man. Man, I, I interchange men and man. I think probably a little too frequently when I type things.

Jason Lange: So, yeah, no worries.

Host: It's, it's with an e. It's men, not man. So if you're looking for his show, use the E, because you'll not find it otherwise. My own little idiosyncrasies. I, I'm so used to typing the fallible man. Like, I automatically hit the. A muscle memory on the keyboard. Right?

Jason Lange: Totally.

Host: Now, it's interesting because we see this. I think we're starting to see some changes in this, but all of us are familiar with the lone wolf concept, right, guys? Rah. The. The lone wolf. And that's where we get, I think, as you call the stoic aspect. Right. Is a lot of where that's rooted in I am my own world. I am, I just need me do it yourself. And this has not actually been a very functional thing for men. So let's talk about being the lone wolf for a minute.

Jason Lange: Yeah, it's a, it comes at us from, you know, many angles. For one, just the expectations and kind of cultural beliefs of what a man is supposed to be. That, that's one area we get it. You know, men are supposed to be tough. We're not supposed to be weak. We're supposed to work hard. We start to kind of absorb these messages, and then, you know, depending on what kind of culture you were raised in, you know, locker room talk for a lot of kids when they're young can be pretty brutal. Right. On the playground or in small groups or whatever that might be. You know, if you're, if you're a Man, and a boy in particular. And you show some kind of vulnerability or emotion, it's pretty easy to get torn down for it, right, and be taught, okay, we're not supposed to do that. So I can't. I can't show any weakness around my friends, otherwise they're gonna, you know, cut me down or bully me or whatever that might be. And so I got to keep that all inside. It starts to form there and then, you know, particularly, you know, I'm here in the. In the States, and there's a deep threat of this woven in to, you know, America, our culture. The rugged cowboy, the rugged individualist, right? The frontiersman who just survives and picks himself up by the bootstraps and doesn't need anybody is kind of the expectation of like, what a, you know, a solid, powerful man is. And like you said, the truth is it almost never works that way, right? Those men are often on the inside, are actually quite suffering. For many, many men, for many, many years, the medicine of choice was alcohol, right? So, yeah, I can be tough. And what does alcohol do? It numbs you out even more. And so I can keep pushing my body or disconnecting from people. And in general, it just creates this whole paradigm of, yeah, we're supposed to be. We're supposed to be the lone wolf, and men are competition, and it doesn't work. And I see and work with so many men who are suffering because of this. And it's just intensified in the last years, you know, through the pandemic, through changes in kind of society and culture and the way people connect and the move to work from home. Men and men are becoming more and more isolated, in particular, way more than even women. And this. I'm going to do it all by myself. It creates so much pressure and so much strife for men in particular. And this idea that the. The lone wolf is the. The model is so flawed, right? Because even in the actual nature, we steal that term for the lone wolf is the one that was actually kicked out of the pack. And they never live as long. They die the fastest, right? Once they're no longer part of the pack, they're. It's not because they're the best or they're thriving. It's because they've been ejected, right? And they're living. Life expectancy goes way down. And the same is true for us as human beings. I mean, the stats are crazy in terms of how loneliness can impact us. Just as dangerous as poking, smoking a pack of cigarettes a day, being severely obese. Like, it has an Actual impact on our lifespan, how long we're going to live in the world. This stuff really can take men down. And the crisis just keeps getting more and more extreme in so many ways. And so, yeah, a big part of what I'm here to do is, you know, bust that myth that the lone wolf is not where you want to be. You want to be part of a community. And it's those guys, particularly, you know, men in community with other men, what I say, that become the most resilient and able to tackle the stresses and challenges, challenges of life with energy and with vitality and with a lot more connection.

Host: Is there anything, let me ask this carefully, is there anything positive to take out of that concept?

Jason Lange: Sure. I would say a certain amount of resourcefulness and being able to, you know, have agency and drive and motivation in your own life is important. You know, not to be totally dependent on others. You do need a certain level of self actualization, I would say. But the thing I found is, you know, a lot of men, we set these like lofty goals for ourselves in terms of our careers or health, our finances, our or relationships. And then we don't resource ourselves to actually accomplish them. And then these things become ways we beat ourselves up subtly inside. I didn't do that thing or I failed that thing. And that gets really hard on us. Whereas again, the power of a good group or a good community, it doesn't stop us from moving towards the things we want, but it's another container to hold us accountable and support us to moving towards what we want. So ideally you have that self drive, but then you have a collective, a community to support you through when things don't go right or when you need a little hand holding or when you feel stuck. And what I found is men get more done when they're in the group. Like they actually start to take more action in the world. There's a, there's kind of a paradox of when we feel safe, we can take more risk. And when we're severely isolated, oftentimes our nervous system is not feeling safe. And so it's harder oftentimes to take the bigger risks. So you do need, you know, a little bit. But. But again, being in a group, it actually fuels it even more. Like it's incredible. Okay.

Host: I know this is a really big, I don't want to say an architect. Like I said, I see this a lot in stoic practices. Being with men does not come naturally to some men. Now I want to say that out loud because I want our audience to Hear this. If this is something you have to work at to be around other men, you're not broken. Nothing is wrong with you. It does not inherently come to people. Right. For some, some of us, it's just not a natural instinct. Now I say that because I, I do think men should be in communion with other men. I did not used to think that I had very much of a lone wolf personality for a very long time. The men in my circle have always been a very, very small, select group of guys. And it's one or two. It's never been. I've never gotten along with men otherwise. Like, I've never been a guy who got along with other guys. And so this idea is something I've had to actually adjust to in the last couple years of my life and I have to work at it. It does not come instinctively for me, gentlemen. It's not something that's actually very comfortable for me. Still, if you guys follow me on social media, I posted a picture Saturday from. I was at a big men's Bible study I go to every month and there's like 30 guys there. And yeah, for me that's, that's a stretch. I have social anxiety issues anyways, but that big of a group, I'm having to learn to try and be a part. And they're all very high value men. I think the world of those guys. But if you're not instinctually part of this, right. If this doesn't come naturally, please understand it doesn't mean that you don't need. Also does not mean that there's something wrong with you. It just means you may have to work that a little bit more. Now I have been really surprised the last couple years because we've seen this come up in media for the first time in like the movies. I thought you would appreciate this as, as a fellow movie guy, are, are you a Kipling fan?

Jason Lange: Kipling, the actor?

Host: The Jungle Book.

Jason Lange: Oh. Oh, gosh. A little bit, yeah.

Host: So they did the live action one. Disney's been doing the live action stuff.

Jason Lange: That's right.

Host: One of the things they talked about was the Law of the Jungle and the Pack where we recite that the wolf on his own will die because the strength of the wolf is the pack and the strength of the pack is the wolf.

Jason Lange: Right? That's right.

Host: Yeah. You guys are watching on the video. I've got a scrolling across the bottom of the screen. I threw that in there in case you've just never seen the Jungle Book. And if you've just never Seen the live action Jungle Book. I know Disney has not hit their batting average on the live action movies. Has not been great, but that one was actually pretty, pretty cute. As a lifelong I grew up, the Jungle Book was one of my favorite movies. It was one of the first books I ever read. Like, just actually read the book. And so I had to see it when it came out. Seeing Scarlett Johansson sing the song for the snake be call was amazing.

Jason Lange: That was. Yeah.

Host: But I was really like, they. They recite this, the Law of the Jungle multiple times in the movie. And I was. It was one of the first times I really noted is like, oh, wow. This is the first time I'm really hearing them say in a movie, the Lone Wolf is a bad thing.

Jason Lange: Right?

Host: And I mean, obviously it's not the focus of the movie, but as somebody who works in the men's space, my brain went, wait, they said it out loud, right?

Jason Lange: Yeah, take note.

Host: And then it was actually in A Song of Ice and Fire in the TV adaptation, Sansa Stark says, when the snow falls, the wind blows, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Game of Thrones got a lot of attention. I don't know if you're a Game of Thrones fan for sure, but when they said that, right, this was the saying for the Stark household, which one of the households in the Game of Thrones, it's like, okay, wow, we're starting to see this actually gain some traction where we're talking about men need to connect right Now, Obviously it was two girls having that conversation in Game of Thrones, but the concept is breaking this Lone wolf concept. And it was nice to see that because when you start to see. Finally start to see something in the media, totally. Which is usually not your best friend, it's like, okay, so there. There's enough people starting to have this thought for the media to reflect it. Now let me be clear on that. Not everything the media reflects is popular thought because the media is really bad about engineering what they want you to think. But for it actually show up in a show, it's like, oh, okay. I don't understand. One of the things that's always baffled me because, you know, I was that kid who grew up on the Rambo movies, the John Wayne movies, right? The Lone Wolf action heroes. Didn't Chuck Norris actually do one called Lone Wolf?

Jason Lange: I wouldn't be surprised. That's it. Yeah.

Host: I grew up on all those movies. My dad was a 80s action junkie. Right, Ditto. Which was funny because he was a preacher. So. I'M trying to think back, right, with some hindsight at 44 years old, of what the appeal was. Now that I've started to try and purposely have men in my life and have groups of men that I associate with and interact with, I'm looking back in hindsight, trying to figure out what the appeal was. Any thoughts?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I, again, I think it's just kind of woven into the American myth and ethos, right? This kind of indestructible man who doesn't need anyone and can just survive on his own. And you know, I, I can go pretty deep on that. Like, for me, I think there's some pretty big shadow in that because when you set that up to be the paradigm, right, that even this, this phrase, we pick ourselves up from the bootstraps, right, that we, a man should be able to figure it out and lead his life and all of that by himself, what that does is it shifts really all of the responsibility to the individual. And it means that if your life doesn't work out right or something goes wrong, it's your fault. You didn't work hard enough, you didn't take care of yourself enough, you weren't, you didn't have high enough character. And while all those things are important, it creates a pretty big shadow in the society. And my opinion that, yeah, you're on your own. And if you can't handle that, it's, it's your problem, right? So if you lose a job, it's your fault. If you get sick, it's your fault. It's not anyone else's fault. And you know, we want harmony and balance with all these things, but that's, it's, it's pretty woven in, you know, it's pretty woven into the. So many, so much of America, right, this idea that, yeah, you can just do it all by yourself. And the truth is nobody has ever lived that way sustainably on the planet. Like, we can think we're independent, but we all rely on other people. We all rely on systems around us. And I think that's just one of the big shifts here. And you know, it's fun for, you know, action wise. Like you can create more drama, you know, just in the idea of the, literally the lone cowboy having the shoot off and all that kind of stuff. But even a lot of the great old tales, right, they weren't about individuals. You know, the magnificent Seven, Seven Samurai, it's about the collective coming together, right, which is far more powerful than the individual. And those stories are there, there was just you know, the 80s in particular were that time of self, self, self, go, go, go, you, you, you, the individual, right? You gotta, you gotta work harder, work harder, work harder. And like I said, that's an important attribute to have, but it's ultimately not sustainable. And it causes a tremendous amount of suffering in particular for men because then when their life isn't going well, they hold it all inside and then they hold it in their bodies and then there's no. They're not really given the tools for how to deal with that. And that actually shows up in terms of physical ailments. The older we get, you know, men get sick when we're isolated, we get sick more easily, we die sooner, our life satisfaction goes down like these, These things have a real impact. And when we don't know how to handle our emotional stress, let's say, what do a lot of men do? They turn to substances outside of themselves to try to make themselves feel better. If what's happening in my body and in my heart is too uncomfortable, then I need to feel something else. For some men, that's booze. For some men, that's weed. For some men's and that's porn, sex, masturbation. For some men, that's food. For some. You know, there's countless way, ways us men will kind of do that because we're often not given the tools for how to be with our internal experience in particular. We're not given a community to experience that in. And all of the most challenging, you know, emotions and experiences in life, we're meant to feel in community, right? We're meant to grieve in community in particular. And our culture creates no space for that, right? No space for men to just be like, ah, man, I, I feel heartbroken right now. And when they don't have that space to do that, men just tighten up, keep it inside, try to trudge forward. And it catches up. It catches up with so many men in some way, shape or form eventually. And you know, part of what I'm here to argue is not only is it more effective to get into a group and surround yourself with community in terms of the things you want to move forward in your life. It just makes it better. Like you're going to have the same stresses in life, but being in connection makes it so much easier to be with those stresses. So, kind of long winded answer.

Host: Nope. I like it, I like it. Let's talk isolation versus solitude for a minute. Because you mentioned isolation. And so I'm, I'm like I said I have to work personally to be around other men. It. It does. Actually. I'm a bit of an introvert, so there is a slight depletion when I'm around groups. Yeah, right. So solitude is very important to me. But I think a lot of men sometimes misunderstand the concepts of isolation versus solitude.

Jason Lange: Yeah, that's great. You know, what I would say here is the key thing is just being around people isn't enough, right? So it's very easy. And probably many people have had the experience of you can be around people and still feel deeply alone. Meaning I don't feel connected or a part of the people I'm around. And that's what in particular creates the most harm for us long term. That's a little different from isolation, right? Which is just sometimes I just need to take space. And a lot of men do need to take a lot of space. I'm also an introvert and definitely need my time. And I way prefer personally going like super deep with two or three men than being in a huge group. Just. That's better for my nervous system. But the point is, you know, even, you know, for me, I can give an example of during the pandemic, right, I was already in a men's group and I just had my first kid, you know, which tends to be an isolating time anyway. But it was pretty much a non thing for me because most of my social needs, you know, before my kid was born, because life was just crazy, were coming through my men's group. We'd meet every other Monday. Sometimes, you know, we'd hang out in between. And even when the pandemic came, you know, we did some groups online for a little while and then we moved to like backyards where we could have space. But the rhythm of the group went uninterrupted. So every two weeks I was sitting down with eight of my favorite men and going deep and talking about what was real and alive in my life. So I never felt lonely during the pandemic, right, Because I was able to go deep. I felt connected to my men, even though I was spending a lot more time isolated, other than my wife and my kid in that. And the key thing here is it's okay to take lots of space and lots of time. But you want to know, there's a place, meaning some relationships where you can bring your full self and feel connected and. And a part of, right? And that doesn't have to be a huge group. It can be just 2, 3, 4 people in your life that you really Feel comfortable being yourself, and in particular for us men, being vulnerable with. Right. Revealing what's hard in your life and where you're struggling, you can just kind of put it all on the table. A lot of times, just sharing those kinds of things already starts to shift energy in our nervous system or our life. So there's a huge difference. Right? You can be around tons of people, but still feel quite lonely. And you can also not spend a lot of time around people, but feel quite connected, because the people you do spend time with, you know how to go deep with, and they see you and they feel you, and you can talk about real things. You know, the one last thing I'll just kind of point out here is one of the challenges us men have is most of us are raised to relate to other men through triangulation, which means you and I hang out, but when we're hanging out, our attention is on a third thing. Right? It's on a sports game. It's on some activity. It's on nerd culture. You know, we're talking about something, and our connection comes from us having our attention on that third thing together, which there's a time and place for that. Right? Like, I love that stuff. So I'm not here to say don't do that, but I'm saying is you also have to match that with actual relation, which means when we're together, my attention is on you and your attention is on me. And we're talking about the experience of being with each other and what our lives are. And a lot of men, we've never been taught to do that, so that can make us deeply uncomfortable in our nervous systems. But that's often where the. The greatest connection comes from that really can then source us against the stresses of life.

Host: Guys, we've been talking a little bit about what Jason does and the myth of the lone wolf versus the idea of being in a pack or in a community and how that adds value to your life, why we think it's important in the next part of the show, we're going to dive into how to start connecting with those groups. One of the things that's complicated for a lot of men is they don't really know how to plug into those groups. And they see it as this daunting thing because they see it as, oh, I've got to go jump. No, you don't have to go jump into this. So we're going to help you with that in the next part of the show. I've had to work really hard in the last couple of years, I have hit the point in my life where I realized that I need those communities and I need to be part of those communities. But it was not a natural, instinctive thing for me. So hopefully Jason can give us some insights on how connecting with other men in groups can work for us. And you, one of the things you mentioned briefly towards the end of the last segment was it doesn't have to be a large group. It can be three or four guys that you just deeply connect with. So let's get into this.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I mean, I. I'll start there. So, you know, I've been part of a few different groups throughout my life. The group. I'm a bit of a men's group junkie, so I'm in. I'm in many. But one of the longest standing for me is my local group here. I live in Los Angeles right now, and I've been with these guys since early 2014. And how that group started, you know, case in point, here was me and two other men who decided, hey, we want to start meeting because we need it, right? We need some support, we need some accountability and we want to go deeper, right? We don't want to just connect and talk about the shallow stuff, but like, yeah, what's going on? What are you experiencing? What are you wanting to move towards in your life? What's in the way? Those were the kind of conversations and connections we wanted to have. So the three of us just decided, we're going to do this, we're going to start. We're going to start meeting. We picked a day and a time and we started meeting and we were pretty committed to that. And then we expanded the invitation, right, to some other guys, like, hey, here's a thing we're doing. You want to come check it out? You can sit in for a meeting or two and, um, if it becomes something you're, you know, interested in joining long term, we can talk about that. And it grew. It grew from there. And like I said, we ended up capping ours. I think our biggest at one point was nine, just because the space we meet in, we literally couldn't get more bodies in there. And for the rhythm of our group, that's about what's appropriate. You know, I find the sweet spot for most men's groups in my experience is, yeah, you know, six to ten men. Beyond that, it's kind of hard to get everybody connected in one meeting if you only have, you know, a couple hours. But what I love about men's groups is they can be totally decentralized in the sense that you don't have to go find one even. You can just start one, right? And there's ways to do that and things you can do to kind of tighten that up and, you know, what's the framework of your group? What do you want to focus on? Often groups have a theme or, you know, something that connects them. But point being, like, any man can be the one who puts the flag in the ground with a couple of guys. He feels a little just spark or connection to, of, hey, let's. Let's take this deeper, let's take our lives deeper and let's start meeting. So that's available to anyone, you know, anytime, any place, any man, which is a great starting point. Then, you know, there's also more organized things to get into, right? Church groups, like you spoke about, are one of the few places men's groups are still flourishing in a lot of ways that men can go and find community. I think that's part of what's been hard for a lot of men is, you know, a lot of people aren't as involved as they used to be. That was one of the main areas for men to socialize and get connection and get community just beyond, you know, their immediate vicinity. There's also, you can go on to things like meetup.com or eventbrite and, you know, kind of search in your area, like, are there any groups meeting already, any men's gatherings of any kind of. And you can always go kind of check out one of those or audition them. You know, there's obviously poking around online trying to find things. There's more and more organizations coming online to support men in these ways. Mine is just one of many. Probably the. The longest standing for a long time was one called the Mankind Project. And, you know, they have. They really have a presence in pretty much every big city across the world now. But with any of these, you know, you want to find the one that works for you, and it might try taking, you know, a couple chances and sitting in on some groups and finding who do you vibe with, whose values align with you, and who do you really see yourself investing this time in? So it does take work to get out the door, but it's always worth it. Another thing I've also found tends to work well, Brent, is for guys going on retreat or going to a workshop, because once you spend some time with men, you often get connected to them, and then it's like, oh, we want to keep this going. So a lot of Guys I work with, you know, they came to one of my retreats and then they just met a couple other really cool men and they wanted to stay in touch. And then lo and behold, that kind of blossoms into their own group long term. But the idea is, you know, you're picking a certain group of men. It can be, you know, virtual or in person. That's the kind of amazing thing about where we're at now. Choosing a time and a place where you're going to meet with some consistency. And in that time, we're not just talking about the surface stuff. Right. We want to actually get deep and connect, connect to our bodies, connect to what's most important in our lives right now, share about where we're struggling and sometimes get some counsel for other men. You know, as I like to say, one of the real powers of men's group is it's a place where we can be supported when we're feeling down and things aren't quite going how we want. But it's also that place, you know, the flip that we were talking about a little earlier, where we can be held accountable to move the things forward we want to move that are most important to us in our life or to be encouraged to come back into integrity. If there's any places in our life where we're not. Right, right. You keep saying you want to do this, but you're not actually doing it or that experience you're having in that relationship. Like, man, that. That doesn't seem really fair to, to either of you. It's like, maybe it's time to change that configuration and come back into integrity somehow. Like groups have been transformative for me in, in that sense of really helping me get my life more and more aligned and on track.

Host: Now, guys, one of the things we talked about in the last part a little bit is this concept of triangle triangulation. Right? That's how men tend to connect with each other. Is you and I focusing on this. And this is one of the things where we're actually going nature against nature for guys if we're not careful. So let me, let me throw this out because this was an issue for me. You can. Part of the reason we're drawn to triangulation is as communicators, we're side by side communicators. Not face to face communicators. Men, it's actually in our nature to stay away from the face to face because at our most base level, that is an active conflict. Men, instinctively, that's a challenge when you Come eye to eye with another man. That is an act of aggression for a lot of guys. Instinctively, even if you don't realize it down at your base core, we're talking the base based systems of your personality as a man. You instinct, instruct, instinctively know that that is an act of aggression to come eye to eye with another man. A lot of times it's okay when you're shaking hands or something like that, right. And confirming. But the areas for men where that seems okay is very small. Which is why we're drawn to this idea of triangulation. Right. We have something to connect with. So when you're trying to meet with other groups, you can still have that outside piece and still connect. Right. We're not saying you have to sit face to face, eye to eye and have a heart to heart with other guys. You can sit around and I sat down one night with three other guys and we smoked cigars and had a drink on a patio at a cigar bar and we talked and we had deep, meaningful, connected conversations in a very non confrontational way because we were doing something together. This allowed us to have that third piece where we're not having to stare at each other and just feel awkward, which for some of us is very. Some guys can do it and I, I'm all for the guys who can do that. Some of us, that's a very awkward feeling. And so without having that thing to distract you, right. Don't watch a football game and think you're going to connect if you're focused on the football game. But you can add doing something together. Right. Guys can fish together, you can walk together. That's why guys talk better in the car to other people than they do face to face a lot of times. So there are ways to get around this awkwardness that some of you might feel.

Host: So, guys, I, I threw in my 2 cents on that just before you guys who are wading into this. If this idea seems scary, it's approachable. You need other men around you. You need other solid, strong men of character around you to help you become your best self. I thoroughly believe that at this point in my life. I don't know if that's the right word. I completely believe that at this point in my life. But I know for some of us it can be a little bit intimidating to move to this. So we're not asking you to jump into a deep, heart to heart, face to face conversation with a bunch of other men right off the bat. There are ways to wade into this, to ease yourself in and get more comfortable with this idea of deeply connecting with other men and other groups. You can start around a campfire because Jason's right, we all love campfires, right? My fire pit. I have a fire pit. My backyard is one of my favorite things in the world. So you can start around the campfire. Okay. You can start around some cigars. Are watching your kids play sports together? I, I talk to dads all the time when my daughters start playing basketball. So you can start in a number of ways, Add groups into your life of men, and then you can take that further as you progress, as you get more comfortable. But you need to find solid men to have in your life now. Jason, if this is really connecting with guys, right, if this is resonating with our listeners today, what are the first three steps you recommend for guys to start implementing this in their life?

Jason Lange: Yeah, you know, like I said, I would recommend call together some men, right? Just think of two, three other men in your life who you just have a sense, like, I think I could go deeper with them or they might be open to connecting in this different way. And then just say, hey, I want to get together and I want to get together and I want us to talk about our lives, right? Just, just that simple. And you give it a whirl, just 90 minutes, you know, on a Saturday night or something like that. So just connect with the men who are already present in your life. That could be step number one at a deeper level. Step number two is if you want to, you know, increase your capacity for that or learn some tools or have some experiences like I said it would be, go out and try to form or to find a already established group of some kind where you can drop in and participate and probably experience some new ways of connecting that you've never done before. And then, you know, step three would be, yeah, really go for the whole enchilada and, like, go on retreat or something sometime where, you know, I've seen the deepest bonding with men come when we're, you know, men tend to bond when we do hard things and we do vulnerable things. And I have just seen, you know, the level of connectivity that certain men can form even in just a weekend, then creates the bedrock for the rest of their lives together in pretty powerful ways. It happened for me, and it's now why I try to create those experiences for other men, too. And there's lots of them out there. The good news is, like you said, this stuff is starting to bubble up through the culture because there's a real need. So there's more and more attention and more and more work out there about, yeah, man, you do not have to suffer alone. Right? So reach out to some guys around you, Find a group that already exists around you, or, you know, go on the big, epic quest and go on retreat somewhere.

Host: What's next for Jason Lang?

Jason Lange: I'm good. Just keep doing what I do, man. Yeah, being a father, being a husband, and just supporting men to realize that, hey, like I just said, you don't have to suffer alone. And what I have found is the power of groups and community like this. It doesn't make life easier, but it does make it better. Just makes it a lot better. The stresses of life keep coming at you, but what a good group can do is resource you against those stresses in a way that just isn't possible alone.

Host: Now we've got your website up and guys that will be in the show notes. Jason, or do you do social media? Where's the best place for people just to connect to you? Is it here at the website or somewhere else?

Jason Lange: Yeah, I'd say here at the website. You can. You can check out my podcast. I do a little bit of Instagram, but, you know, I don't have a huge social media presence. Podcasting is really what I love. Just having conversations like this and, you know, being able to go. So that's probably the best Way to check out the deeper vibes of some of what I'm up to as well. It's right here on my site.

Host: Now, I know that everybody is really worried about what Bruno Mars real name is.

Jason Lange: Yeah, I am curious.

Host: And. And you guessed D. Bruno Marza, or whatever it is that I can't pronounce. Bruno Mars's real name is actually a Peter Gene Hernandez.

Jason Lange: Wow. Never would have guessed that your world.

Host: Is radically changed, right?

Jason Lange: It totally is, actually.

Host: I know you totally, deeply cared about that like everybody else. Guys, my wife showed me this meme the other day on Instagram, just and it was a picture of a bunch of men standing around a barbecue grill, all with a beer in their hand. And it actually had a caption that said, only men can spend an hour and a half like this and not even know each other's first name. And I want to say that that's super funny because there's truth to it. Okay, don't be that guy. That's what we're saying today. Don't be that guy. You need to connect with healthy men to be the best version of yourself. And Jason has laid out that argument very well for us today. Jason, as we land this plane, wrap us out. If someone heard nothing else today, what is the most important thing you want them to hear?

Jason Lange: Every man should be in a men's group. You will be creating the conditions for your life to thrive at an entirely next level.

Host: Guys, for myself and Jason, thanks for hanging out with us today as always. Be better tomorrow because what you do today. And we'll see you on the next one.

Jason Lange: This has been the Fallible man podcast. Jason Lange: And get your own Fallible Man, George.